A Solid Theological Refutation of Christianity

1. 59

   Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

   This world is for sure influenced by good and evil.
   But that is what they were told.
   
   "Do not touch or eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"
   "you may touch and eat any of the other trees, not that one"
   
   If I tell my kid not to touch or eat something and they do it anyhow, they receive the consequences even though I love them dearly and always will.

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      BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Good example - life is full of consequences.

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2. 59

   Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

   What do you think of the One called Messiah Jesus (Yahshuah) ?

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   1. 59

      Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You want to know if I think Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah whose coming the Jewish prophets foresaw?
      
      No I don't. Ask any Jew and they can tell you why. I don't care to get into that with you.

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         Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Oh ok then, now I have an understanding of your position.
         That clears up a lot of things.
         
         I do not "need" to ask any Jew, can you read my name?

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3. 60

   My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago

   My friend says love is hard to understand and love is always loving and does all things out of love and can be understood by love and with love.
   
   That love cannot fail because it cannot be moved from it's posision of love and always remains moving in love.

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4. 59

   Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

   I still wish he would answer his own original question.
   
   "Or is there some other explanation?"

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      Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      My answer to this is that there is no explanation. Christianity is a flawed religion.

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5. 59

   Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

   He says he knows God face to face.
   
   That is worthy of explanation.
   Not everyday someone says that.

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      Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      What do you want me to explain?

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      1. 59

         Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         When God appears to you face to face, what does God look like?
         What does God sound like when God speaks?
         What does God say?
         What do you say?

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         1. 59

            Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            He is invisible
            He is silent
            He speaks in thoughts and feelings, not words
            I say whatever is on my mind at the time.

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               Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Oh, that is not the same as face to face.
               
               In the face to face.
               He is seen.
               He speaks with His voice.
               He converses with you and you with Him.
               
               The way you described is commonplace.

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               1. 59

                  Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Nevertheless. I know God face to face. Say what you want, but you can't tell me what my relationship to God is. Nor can I say what yours is to God. We've already established that He reveals different things to different people.

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                  1. 59

                     Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     If you have not seen Him in a visible manner, nor heard His audible voice,
                     then you have not seen Him face to face.
                     If you are not on YOUR face in His presence, then it is not God.

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6. 60

   My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago

   My friend says that the only will one should posess is the will to love and love motivates the will do all things out of love. When the will becomes one with love then the will is consumed in love and the 2 cannot be seperated.

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7. 60

   My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago

   My friend says:
   The origin of many things are a mystery and the greatest mystery is love.
   Love cannot do evil. If love must discipline, it does so in love and with love.
   Love can only love.

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8. 59

   Fairbearposted 14 years ago

   Do you really think that an average Muslim, born and raised in the Islamic religion, who lives a good and decent life, deserves to go to Hell?
   
   All he's guilty of is following the religion of his family and upbringing, just like most Christians do. Does that person really deserve Hell just because he happens to be Muslim and not Christian? Do you really think he had a fair chance?
   
   Anyone who answers "yes" to this is either lying to themself, or they are a sociopath, or they don't know what Hell is.
   
   Maybe my whole argument is based on emotion after all. To me, no one deserves to burn for eternity without relief. Not even the worst serial killer who ever lived. And definitely not someone who just happens to be of a different religion. The reason I feel this way is because I have a genuine love for my fellow human beings. And if my tiny little love is enough to pardon all people from eternal torment, then I can't imagine God's enormous love opposing that.
   
   If my argument is based on emotion, then so is Christianity's argument. Their definition of God as All Loving is an emotional definition. Love is an emotion. I know what love is. No one needs to tell a person what it is, because it's self evident. And no God who was All Love would create Hell. There's nothing loving about it.

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      mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      We are in hell and this is all a big game, a big joke and god is not restricted to any one religion.

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9. 59

   Fairbearposted 14 years ago

   Bibowen:
   
   I'll just put this in it's own post.
   
   Isaiah 45:7 states that God created evil. In some translations the word evil is replaced by "darkness" or "calamity." Which in context of the passage, means the same thing as evil. But there are as many interpretations of the Bible as there are grains of sand on a beach, and I'm sure yours is different than mine, and you're sure to use it to support what you think is right.
   
   But aside from Biblical reference, your God did create Hell, and Hell is evil. No one is going to call you evil for letting someone get away with stealing your money. But you are definitely evil if you retaliate by chaining that person up in your garage and torturing him for weeks and weeks until he finally dies. That would be evil, and entirely uncalled for. And that is essentially what God is doing to people who just happen to be Muslims, or Jews, or any other non-Christian faith. It was God's choice to create Hell. It was His design. And according to Christianity, it is reserved for all people who are not Christians! No matter how decent and pure-hearted they may be.
   
   That describes a God who is anything but Good and All Loving. And if God's love is the opposite of man's love, then why do we call it love?
   
   Lets not be inaccurate. We're not talking about accepting or rejecting God. I agree that everyone is born with the inner knowledge of God. In fact, Atheism is the only persuasion I know of that doesn't believe in some kind of supreme being or beings. We're talking about accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ. And to everyone who is not born and raised in a Christian society and family, Jesus and God are not the same thing. You seem also to refuse to aknowledge the validity of alternate world-views. You seem to suggest that in the hearts of everyone on earth is the inherent kowledge that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. DO you really think that? I find that hard to believe. You seem smart. I'd think that you would know that to a Muslim, Jesus Christ is no more God incarnate than a rock is a tree, or a bird a fish. The notion is just as obviously flase to them as Scientology is to you. Don't you see that?

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10. 59

    Fairbearposted 14 years ago

    Bibowen:
    
    And to respond to your assertion about Americans knowing about Hell but rejecting God anyway. It is filled with assumptions.
    
    You assume that a person simply hearing other people talking about Hell endows them with knowledge of Hell. It doesn't. If you hear someone talking about flying elephants would you be to blame for dismissing it as a fantastic lie? Are we supposed to believe in things just because we hear about them? That's ridiculous. Anyone who rejects Christianity is obviously someone who lacks the knowledge of Hell. And by knowledge, I mean the knowledge that it is a real thing, not just the knowledge that it is something that some people believe in. Anyone who had real knowlege of the real existence of Hell would do everything in their power to escape it. If you think otherwise, then you don't know himan nature. Who in their right mind, if faced with the real prospect of burning in flames for eternity, would not avoid it at all costs? You assume that when people are presented with Christianity that they see it from the perspective of a believer.
    
    I'm curious to hear your response to this.

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       Bibowenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       This will be my last post for a while....
       
       I agree in this sense. If most criminals knew the true consequences of their behavior, they might change their mind.
       
       Some might.
       
       But people rationalize and deceive themselves in believing they can get away with things that they should not be trying to get away with. We know of many who do time in prison, and yet go back out and commit the same crimes again, taking the risk that their sentence will be even longer than that which they've already experienced. They had experienced the punishment by actually going through it and yet go back to the same error.
       
       But I think it is you who have not properly assessed human nature. I have heard of people on their deathbeds say that they know they're going to hell, but in their hatred of God, they'd rather go there. Do they know all that hell entails? No.
       
       If they had the opportunity to experience hell before making such a statement, might they change their mind? Perhaps. But I dismiss that it is required of God that He offer a full explanation of eternal punishment before he sends men there. We don't know of all that heaven entails either. Should God reward men with heaven, a place that they are not yet fully cognizant of? It seems to me that your moral outrage runs one way.
       
       You think that it's just for God to reward men with heaven, a place that they don't fully fathom, yet you think He's wrong to punish men with hell because they don't fully fathom it. We don't tell criminals the full extent of their punishment prior to their committing crimes. That's not the way it works in this life and that's not the way it works in eternity either.
       
       The moral response to God is obedience, not "weighing the consequences." People that are doing that are probably going to smart for it....
       
       Is it God's fault that people choose wrongly? If they think that hell is a fantasy like flying elephants, then they were wrong to believe it. How is God at fault to because people take what he says as false?
       
       BTW, people do not start out in life that way, they change and come to hold such views. In my experience, most children are afraid of hell and are more likely to believe it is true. It's only as people get older that they rationalize it away, calling it a "myth" that they hold the concept as "ridiculous." 
       
       You assume people just "happen" to think what they think, but that's wrong. People come to think what they do based on moral decisions and often forget the path of how they came to such a position. It's called self-deception. A man that flippantly snubs God's warnings of judgment is making morally wrong choices before he comes to such a view. A wise man would consider what God is saying, especially if what God is saying portends some harm to himself.
       
       Finally we are far afield of your original claim. You have not shown a necessary contradiction between God being loving, all knowing, and all powerful. I have shown that these things need not be contradictory. No "solid refutation" has been given.

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       1. 59

          Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Deary me,
          
          Most children believe what their parents tell them.
          
          This is certainly what I had indoctrinated into me as a child. And you are right - it is difficult to get away from as you become older, begin to think for yourself and discover you were lied to. It often leads to conflict and resentment. I like to think I have let go of the resentment because my parents were just ignorant and did not realize what they were doing.
          
          This is known as "child abuse."
          
          You must be very proud of yourself. Have you frightened many children with this fairy tale?

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       2. 59

          Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          My point is not that people don't know the full extent of what Hell is. My point is that they know of Hell to no extent at all. You seem to place the whole world inside your own tiny world-view in which Hell is real. As if whenever someone hears about Hell they immediately know that it's a true place. Believe it or not, to many people, Hell is not real at all. Not at the beginning of thier life, and not at the end of it either. To them it's as real as Tinkerbell the tiny flying pixy. You seem unable to appreciate this fact of humanity. If someone offered you a choice between one dollar and a chance to meet Tinkerbell, which would you choose? You'd dismiss the option that was obviously an impossibility, and choose the dollar. It's a no-brainer. And to many people, Hell is just as fictional as Tinkerbell is. 
          
          furthermore, mankind's ability to delude himself into believing things goes both ways. I think you're as deluded as you think I am.
          
          
          Again. I'm not talking about people who believe in Hell. Everyone believes in prison. They know it's a real place. It exists in their concept of reality, even though they don't know what it's like inside. You seem incapable of seeing that many people don't believe the same thing you do. Evidence of prison can be attained by anyone. Not so with evidence of Hell. There is no evidence of it. It is not an observable aspect of reality like prison is. How can a person accept or reject something that to them is unreal?
          
          Also, I haven't brought heaven into this at all. I never said I thought humans deserved to go to Heaven or that God ought to send them there. Nor have I said that I think it's just. You have derived what you think my thoughts on Heaven are out of your own assumptions, not my words.
          
          
          
          I'm not saying He's at fault for that. I'm saying He's evil for sending them to Hell for it.
          
          
          Now you're proving me right about your distorted concept of humanity. You say that "most children" start out in life believing in Hell. What you mean is that most children you've known within your Christian network of acquaintances have believed in Hell. That because someone taught them about it! Do you think they would believe in it otherwise? Please tell me you don't think that. Do you think children of all religions and walks of life are born with an inner knowledge of Hell?
          
          No, they don't. Children are taught according to the religion of their parents, and guess what -- children believe what they're taught. In that sense, yes, they do "just happen" to believe what they believe, because they just happened to have parents who taught them what to believe. Only the exceptionally assertive and individualistic one deviate from the religion of their youth -- no matter what that religion is. 
          
          
          Just because you say I have no refutaion doesn't make it so. Every single argument you given me I've broken down and showed you where it doesn't work. If I am wrong to state this, then bring it back out on the table and show me. But there were many points I've made that you didn't address, and I think it's because they made you uncomfortable and unsure. Fairwell for the time being. It's been fun

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11. 60

    My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago

    My friend says:
    Love is light.
    Love will always remain.
    To refuse love is to be in outer darkness.
    One without love is tormented within wherever one is.
    Surrendering to love is to become needless and full of light.
    Love needs no defense and nothing can defend against love.

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12. 59

    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    It is interesting that we create jails and prisons for the lawless.
    
    Then question someone else for doing the same thing.

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13. 66

    Make Moneyposted 14 years ago

    Fairbear you seem to continually contradict yourself with your posts.
    
    In your original post you say God did not intend for mankind to sin and things didn't turn out how He planned thus He made a mistake.  So in your opening post you come to the conclusion that God cannot be all powerful or all knowing.  Then you ask "Is He simply not Good?"
    
    Then above you say that God is evil.  I'll quote you, "I'm saying He's evil for sending them to Hell for it."
    
    This rings of someone that just barely believes in God, maybe, maybe not.
    
    Yet you say that you have talked to God.
    
    Fairbear on your profile you say you like a good theological debate.  But a theological debate is not just something that pops into your mind at the time to argue about.  My young friend you need to keep studying before starting a "theological debate".  This entire thread is a complete waste of time.
    
    There is still no solid theological refutation of Christianity in this thread.

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    1. 59

       Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       You still don't have a case, my old friend. ALl you have is a position. And what you claim that I said in my original post is not what I said at all.

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14. 66

    Make Moneyposted 14 years ago

    It's up to you to make the case Fairbear, you haven't.  I suggest that you go back and read your original post yourself.  I'll be passing on this thread from now on as like I said, it is a waste of time.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Still hunting for the sky fairy? Still squabbling over who it belongs to?

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16. 59

    Fairbearposted 14 years ago

    I'll make one final post, call it a day, and then perhaps move on to writing a hub or maybe another thread.
    
    All in all it's been interesting. There has been some good, honest debating on this thread, and also some childishness, but more of the former than the latter. Some have come out and said, "you have no refutation," as though they had somehow proven me wrong, but they must have left that proof out of their posts because I never saw it. However there were some impressive attempts (Valerie F., Bibowen), and one case of admirable honesty (Shaul Stein).
    
    I've always been moved by Christians who will admit that their religion is unreasonable and illogical. Those Christians have a much greater degree of faith, and honesty, than those who insist against all logic that thier beliefs must be logical since they are, after all, true (in their minds). The fact is, Christians, your beliefs just aren't logical. And admitting that will in no way decrease your certitude --unless, of course, your certitude is already in jeapordy, which is probably the case since you're so desparately trying to defend it by logical means.
    
    I learned something about myself through this thread. I learned what it is about Christianity that doesn't add up, that defies truth, and that casts the entire Christian religion into the shadows of illegitimacy. I started this thread questioning three aspects of the Christian definition of God, but it is really only one of those, coupled with a certain other theological item, that suffices as an effective de-bunker. Here it is:
    
    A God who created a place called Hell is not a Good God, He is an Evil God. Period. No one deserves to burn for eternity without relief, not Ted Bundy, not Jack the Ripper, and certainly not your average run of the mill non-Christian. The creater of Hell simply cannot be Good and Loving. That's all there is to it.
    
    I think that even Christians cannot escape this human conviction, because they try with all thier might to place the responsibilty of Hell on mankind. They do everything they can to take the attention off of the fact that their God created Hell and then sentenced human beings to go there. They cannot directly face it because they are human, like me, and can't in good conscience proclaim that good people deserve to burn forever without end. They ignore it, and snow it over with talk of free will, and sin, and parent analogies, and circular reasoning.
    
    This is my closing statement. I'll return to see what anyone has to say in response (if anyone responds), but I'm through posting to this thread. Perhaps I'll see you all elsewhere on hubpages. Fairwell.

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    1. 59

       Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Perhaps it is this simple.
       
       The logic of mankind cannot comprehend the logic of Godkind.
       A finite mind cannot understand an infinite mind.
       God said "all" that He created was good.
       Our perception is often an illusion until we see clearly.

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    2. 62

       Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Ah, but Hell wasn't created for people originally. It is referred to as a place for the Devil and his angels, for beings determined to make a Hell out of Heaven.
       
       2 Peter 3:9 says that the Lord does not wish "that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
       
       John 3:17 (you probably are much more with the verse immediately before it) says "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him."
       
       The only reason people might go to Hell at all is because they prefer the eternal company of their sins and temptations to the company of all that is only pure and good, or they don't think eternal happiness is worth what relatively little would be asked of them.

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          tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            You can't be that naive! Can't believe this fairy tale about heaven and hell ? And it seems he send his son for nothing then. And why create a doomed world ? why create a world full of miseries, crimes and all kind of flaws? Why create beings so imperfect? Nothing make sense. You don't have a point here. Not even a coma

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             tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Still  checking your textbooks, dear ??

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             Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Hmmm. And here I thought you were interested in honest answers. I did have a point about why Hell was created- that it was not for evil intent in the least as you would like to believe.
             
             You then resort to ad hominem attacks, in which case all pretext of civil discussion ceases, and I'm done.
             
             I still am assuming you are capable enough to look up Anselm's ontological proof of God's existence on your own.

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                Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                He is to ignorant to understand that kind of book.
                He just loves to mock....have a nice evening Val.

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                tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  no 'proof' whatsoever ! I'm done as well. pointless to ask questions to someone that don't have clear answers for anything. only quotes and more quotes ! Unbelievable !!

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          3. 66

             Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             And why do you think there will be a new heaven and a new earth and a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven?
             
             Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more."
             
             Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
             
             The verse immediately before John 3:17 that Valerie speaks of is obviously John 3:16 which states "For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting."   
             
             It's a shame that Fairbear can not accept the fact that human beings sentence themselves to hell with their own actions.  It's a cop out to blame God for this after all the warnings given.
             
             Valerie spoke the truth.  We have the free will to either accept or deny it.  Choose wisely.
             
             God bless

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    3. 56

       atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I think it rather funny that one would choose the word "deserve" when saying who does and does not deserve for our God to punish or not.
       
       
       First, to be in the position to assert as you did there that people Do Not deserve etc.. One must be in authority on the subject which you are not since YOU did not write the laws of which poeple have broken.
       
       I believe you can argue that you may not think its not fair, but to say flatly that you or anyone elese for that matter do not derserve it is rather, well, arrogant.
       
       What exactly gives YOU or makes you think that you know what people deserve or do not deserve concerning God's laws? You may not agree with those laws or punishments or think them to be "unfair", but that is your opinion.
       
       The truth is, God wrote the laws, instructed man to follow them, gave him the consequences if he CHOOSES to rebel against or otherwise, break them, and then offered us a way to pardoned for them. Which is a far better way of justice in my opinion than that of mans laws or the justice behind them.
       
       How many times have you seen it when a ciminal is standing before a judge, found guilty of his crime and simply because he, "asks" is set free? Yet with God, this is not only possibly, it is done EVERY time.
       
       As I pointed out yesterday in another post, God is JUST, but he is also merciful and forgiving. Some of you have argued that God must be evil because he created hell or punishes people to spend an eternity there.
       Hell was created and designed for Satan and his band of demons to go to, not people! The fact people will end up there is a result of THEIR OWN disobediance and disbbelief. They ahve chosen that path. Just as a criminal here makes a choice whether or not to commit a crime regardless of the consequences! It is the same exact thing!
       
       You and others like you, atleast for a time now anyway, have chosen to omit God, disregard his laws and then break those laws with no regard to the consequences He so plainly laid out for everyone.
       
       Was he "evil" for creating those laws? And is it rather, "HIS" fault when YOU choose to break them? I think not.
       
       No, I think it is really a true sign of a world gone completely rebellious and proud. I believe you would rather choose to think God nonexistant as belief in his existance would only find you guilty of sin. And being so proud, thinking you are far above the laws of God, you can not wrap your carnal mind wround that concept.
       It would in essence take responsibility and accountability on your part and those are things which you are far too superior (in your mind), to accept.
       
       God is NOT evil. He is only good. He loves us. He gave us the ooportunity to have free will. It is our free will with which we choose the right path or not. And He loves us in that even in your obvious disregard for, and ultimate disrespect for Him and those laws that he offers YOU forgiveness and mercy.
       
       Even now through the words of His people He calls to you. He speaks. He opens the door to salvation and welcomes you. It is now as is always YOUR choice to answer or open that door. If your heart is willing you will and if your arrogance and pride is too great you will not answer, you will not open it.
       
       And this is where YOU are accountable. That when that day comes and you are standing before Him, and you will be, what possible excuse are you going to have? Who will be there in your defense? what witnesses will you call?
       "oh but God, I was a "good" person" Really?
       Have you ever lied?
       Have you ever stolen? I mean, anything, ever no matter how small?
       Have you ever taken His name in vain? I.E. G%# D%&#
       And those are just but three, of the ten.
       But the most obvious and "threatening" of your infractions is the one thing, the only thing, that will save you in the guilt of the above mentioned,
       You have not accepted Christ. You do not believe in Him to be the only begotten Son of God.
       And just as you, who are so arrogantly annoucing there is no God, He will say, "Depart from me, I never knew you."

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    4. 88

       Bibowenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Your claim is not that the theodicy problem is true; it’s that it is logically airtight. However, you are arguing as if you are trying to prove that it is true. But I am attacking your claim that you have a logically “solid refutation” of Christianity. You apparently do not even know what kind of argument you’ve presented. If you did, you’d stop saying that you’ve answered all potential defeaters of your position and that your opponents have offered no substantive rebuttal to your position. Given that you are providing a logical problem of evil (as opposed to, let’s say, a probabilistic one) you must demonstrate that your conclusions are based on premises which must be the way they are of necessity. That is, they could not be otherwise. But you have not even begun to do that. At this point, I suspect it’s because you don’t understand the kind of argument that you are offering. What I suggest is that you scale back your claim and make it more modest.
       
       You have not dealt with the free will argument. Even though you have posted a comment on it (at least 2x), your response was a dismissal of free will, not a refutation of it. As I stated God’s omniscience need not override man’s freedom of choice. For your argument to work, you must show that God’s omniscience of necessity overrides man’s ability to choose. But, you have not shown why it is necessary that God’s being “all-knowing” overrides man’s capacity to choose.
       
       After this, your comments have been reduced to complaints about hell and why you think it unreasonable that God would send people there. The theodicy you submit at the beginning is not about hell but is about evil and suffering in this life. Your clincher is that you think that God is evil to send the unrighteous there.
       
       Is this logical? On what basis do you call his actions “evil”? Who or what are you appealing to when you complain about God being “evil”? Fairness? Humanity? None of these are adequate appeals since they are that which is being judged. If man and his sense of goodness are being judged, they can’t be the basis of your appeal. Your very sense of right and wrong will be judged against the penetrating light of eternal omniscience and justice. 
       
       On p. 9, you say,
       “How could you hold the viewpoint that everyone in the world who has ever lived (since the death of Jesus and forming of Christianity) possesses in their minds a firm conviction of the existence of Heaven, Hell, God, Jesus as God, sin, the authority of the Bible, and everything else that constitutes your Christian world-view? How can the fact escape you that the only reason these things seem self evident to you is because you already believe in them?”
       
       This is a red herring. No Christian that I know of holds to such a view. As to the reasons why I believe them or why I find them self-evident are irrelevant. The only thing relevant about the things you mentioned are whether or not they’re true, not how I came to hold such beliefs. As for rejecting Scientology or Krishna, I don’t reject them because I think they’re “myths” (in the historical sense of that concept), I reject them because I consider them false.
       
       During 9/11, had you been on the streets of NYC when the mayhem broke out, and you were injured, who would you have rather been standing next to: the  guy who is shaking his fist at the sky, cursing the Muslims, screaming “it’s not fair; you’re not going to get away with this….it’s not fair.” All the while you lay there injured while he curses the sky.  Or would you rather be next to the guy who says “let’s get out of here” and helps you get away from the danger zone?
       
       How is it that you are a humanitarian to be preoccupied with the unfairness of hell and disregard the merits of the claim? What does “fairness” have to do with “truthfulness”? Even more basic, what does “fairness” have to do with “existence”?  We are reminded every day that unfair things happen. Hell may be unfair. In fact, it might be the ultimate and final unfairness. In fact, that might be one of the worst things about it; it’s unfairness.
       
       You claim to be a humanitarian. Well, if I were you, I’d stop standing on the deck of the Titanic, complaining that it’s not fair that the ship is sinking, not fair that there are not enough lifeboats, not fair that it’s too cold in the N. Atlantic, not fair that all the band can play is “Nearer My God to Thee” (Please don’t correct me—Remember “poetic license”) and I’d start looking for a way to save yourself and as many people as you claim to love.
       
       But, as I said, I don’t think your argument is a logical one, but rather an emotional appeal: you are put out that God is going to be the final judge and is going to mete out a sentence that you disapprove of. You think it’s too harsh? Well, what good do you think your disagreement with the sentence will do you? Who is this going to help? How will this help your friends and family? Furthermore, how could you possibly know whether it’s fair or not? What’s your standard or metric to judge its unfairness? Your feelings? You don’t “feel” it’s fair? How will your feelings move the cosmos? Given man’s limited capacities—physically, mentally, emotionally—how can you stand at the edge of eternity, speak across it and make such a pronouncement? How far do you think you’re complaint will carry? What kind of effrontery will it provide to God? Who will you convince?
       
       Pascal’s logic is inescapable to any reasonable man. If I choose God and I’m wrong, I have lost nothing. I’ll simply die with a wrong idea, among the many I will hold when I depart this life. But if I reject God and God exists, then I have lost everything.  Furthermore, if you persist you may take other people with you, the very people you claim to love and cherish.
       
       In the end, you have sought to raise a logical bar and have tried to emotionally surmount it. You have not confronted the logical hurdle and your complaints about hell sound like the complaints of the inmates who complain that the food is lousy and the entertainment is worse.

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          atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Absolutely Brilliant my friend!

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             TheLoanConsultantposted 14 years agoin reply to this

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Your reply contain two elements that I respect in thinking.
    You have reasoned using good logic and real science, but more, and importantly, your feelings are visible in the way you reached your deductions.
    
    I believe that even good clear thinking needs to be "dipped" in our capacity to feel as well. You have achieved this in my view.
    
    I think you have understood and included valid points from the preceding posts, then responded respectfully.
    Well done.

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    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    @ Valerie
    They have no ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.
    Let them be as they are.
    Tantrum has said he loves evil, so let him be in love.
    
    Valerie, you are tossing pearls in front of a pig and they are being trampled under foot !!!

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       tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        

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    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    Ignore him Valerie, spend your time on something other than a foolish Tantrum of a spoiled brat.

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       and you're still a troll with zero credibility!

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    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    Check mate

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       tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you for pointing it out !  But I already knew I've won !

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Take away the books that are obviously written by psychotic sexist zealots who threaten that their god is gonna kill, torture, maim and rape and they have nothing to say!
    Not one spec of evidence for a story so pathetic in it's own psychological profile that the belief itself is like an insanity. That is how you make little Taliban, get em early then indoctrinate! indoctrinate!

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Does that include the right to find it hilarious?

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       Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Laugh all you want.....God laughs too....big deal man.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Does your god laugh at this sock puppet??
    
    If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.   (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
    Ha ha. Very funny god!

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       Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       You seem to want to keep finding fault with God Earnest.
       His way is perfect and He does not answer to men.
       Lying in the name of God was punishable by death.
       And so what?
       He takes this very seriously because when one speaks for God, telling a lie is not an option. His people were to purge evil from among them.
       And? So?
       
       If you had evil in your house, would you get rid of it?

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Same old. Why don't you read the rot your god is supposed to have inspired? It is full of hate like you are towards all but a narrow few. That few changes based on what part of the bible any particular cult wants to promote. Your just another of about 300!

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    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    Heavy man heavy !!!

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Lightweight man, flyweight even!
       All flying fairy stuff with no proof as usual, just quotes and interpretations from a discredited source.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Yes wonderful, but there is no god!

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    TheLoanConsultantposted 14 years ago

    I still can't get over how some people beleive that NOTHING EXPLODED! Try telling that to the people in Hiroshima in WW2! NOTHING EXPLODED!

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    TheLoanConsultantposted 14 years ago

    :0 So if I were to sit in on one of Charles Darwin's lectures, I would say, "So basically what you're saying Mr. Darwin is that NOTHING EXPLODED? And He would scratch his throat, cough a little bit and then utter under his breath, "Well....Yes, of course." Then he would admonish me to never question him again in front of the class. Even now the thought makes me laugh uncontrollably!

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