The Real Difference Between Believer And Nonbeliever

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   Fairbearposted 14 years ago

   Two relatively similar people are presented with the Bible and the message of Christianity. Person one takes to it eagerly. Person two pushes it as far away as it will go. What is the difference between these two people?
   
   Lets add that the two people have identical upbringings, are the same sex, live in the same town, work at the same business, and share all the same interests and tastes.
   
   Why does one embrace Christianity and the other reject it? I have a theory to answer this.
   
   SImply put, Christianity makes some people feel good, and others feel bad. Christians are people whom Christianity makes feel good. Rejectors of Christianity are people whom Christianity makes feel bad. I really think it's as simple as that.
   
   So then the real question is why? Why does Christianity feel good to some? Why does it feel bad to some?
   
   I am an unbeliever. Christianity makes me feel terrible. If that were not so, I would most likely have never rejected it. I would have done like the rest of my entire family and remained a Christian.
   
   What about you? Which kind of person are you? And what about Christianity makes you feel good or bad?

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      A_to_Jposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I really do not get your "christianity made you feel, bad" argument.
      I believe faith, belief, love in and through Christ would or at least should make people feel rather good. Knowing that Jesus, that God loved us so much to do what he did for us is rather a good feeling as well.
      To know that we are loved so much like that should anyway.
      
      If you or anyone else feels bad about that then, well I really do not know how to answer you.

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      1. 57

         Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         It's not an argument. It's a fact. Christianity makes me feel bad. Period. The fact that it makes you feel good--as you say in your post--only goes to support my theory. Another difference is that I can see how Christianity might make you feel good, but you can't see how it might make me feel bad.

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            A_to_Jposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Because you never stated why it makes you feel bad only that it does. So how was I supposed to "see" it? lol

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   2. 0

      Scott.Lifeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I enjoy that I have a choice and that Jesus says I can decide my own fate. I also enjoy the notion that he stood against corruption and for the common man. He preached that all were important to God. Then again apparently if you read any of the forums I've been involved in the so called believers say I'm not one so I guess its a matter of perspective. To me that I would rather live with men and try to understand their point of view rather then condemn them in open defiance of Jesus own words makes me a believer. He commanded me to love my neighbor so I do. I was lost once and filled with malcontent yet he accepted me, why am I not to do that in my own life, but to limit those who I speak to to a small circle of those that others tell me are acceptable
      
      Honestly the more I read the rules of Christianity posted by the self proclaimed believers on the forums the less I seek that title myself. It is however their freedom of choice and one they use proudly so I will defer to God's judgment in my own life. I think all too often some of us forget that we are not God, no matter how much we can quote and recite, we are still just men.

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      getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Your first paragraph is basically stating that we are all born atheist. And we are content with being atheist until someone introdues the concept of religion into our lives. It's not as simple as feeling good our bad about religion, but how susceptible one is to things like authority, FEAR, whim, etc.
      
      I come from a christian home. I was "saved" at an early age. I loved Jesus. But I began to see that something was missing(GOD)--where the hell was God? All prayers were never answered. And He was never there for me to look upon, as evidence of this "proof"
      
      It took years to deprogram myself, and to see that it was a TRICK, orchestrated by tyrants long dead. I went back to being atheist, the way we were before we were conditioned by these tyrants. Those who don't have the courage to face their fears, and, who think they need something to appease this imaginary god will remain religious, despite all evidence that: the concept of a god is illogical.

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   4. 78

      Born Again 05posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      First let me say that I am a believer. Though I was raised as a Lutheran and considered myself a Christian I was not a Christian in my heart until four years ago. God got a hold of my heart through the words of a song. I felt humility and brokeness. Perhaps its that feeling that makes you feel terrible. For me, it was the knowledge that I truly was a sinner before a Holy and righteous God. My sin was grieving God and yet I knew He loved me just the way I was. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." God gave of Himself FIRST, sacrificing His only Son knowing that many would reject Him. Is there any greater love? When the Holy Spirit comes alongside of you and convicts you of your sin, you have a choice...ignore Him (as many do) or receive Him by repenting and accepting the free gift of eternal life given to you by God the Father. That's when you experience the pure joy of a believer! God is tugging at your heart. Rejecting Him makes you feel terrible. Real atheists don't feel terrible because they don't feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit. They don't belong to God. For a believer, it's a life long commitment and one not to be taken lightly. For those who claim to have been Christans and no longer are...it's because they were not true Christians in the first place. I know because at one time I was such a "Christian."

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         UpHisAssposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Well done. I especially like that atheist are rejected by god - not the other way around. Very good work. Fantastic unassailable logic also. Those christians who decide the Christian faith is not for them were not "true" christians. Wonderful. Heart warming. Keep up the good work.
         
         Glad you are now feeling the "pure joy," and no longer feel the worthlessness you were feeing as a pretend christian, but have you considered the real joy of the dark side?

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            BadCoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Love yer hub name, ya gonna be writing any hubs are can't you be arsed

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               UpHisAssposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               All in good time my piratical friend. All in good time.

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                  BadCoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Good to hear, just spotted the name and laughed, I love it !

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            Born Again 05posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Do you have anything worthwhile to say? It's really ok to have a different opinion. Why don't you try answering the original question? Isn't that why it was asked? You changed my quote before using it. Couldn't handle the words I used? My words were, "Real atheists don't feel terrible because they don't feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit. They don't belong to God."  There is no joy in the dark side. You are deceiving yourself.

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               UpHisAssposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               They do not belong to god - you are correct. God only wants the obedient sheep.
               
               Baaah!

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               1. 62

                  Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Indeed! And so you, uphisass, as so many others here, are a follower!
                  
                  Me, I'm just not feeling the follower thing. Never did work for me.

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                     UpHisAssposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Good for you. Perhaps you should consider our church. "Do what thou wilt," shall be the whole of the law...

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                        tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Aleister Crowley is too much for you !

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      2. 82

         Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         "Christ died for us." God gave of Himself FIRST, sacrificing His only Son knowing that many would reject Him. Is there any greater love? "
         
         Is there any greater or sicker twisting of the word love than to pair it with "sacrificing His only Son"?
         What kind of a monster demands the murder of his son as a device for forgiveness? It's outrageously sick and twisted. We had to murder a god so it could forgive us? And what sacrifice? He was back with his father, where you want to be, in three days or less. You don't believe in a dead Jesus do you? So what sacrifice? None. Just theatrics and irrational nonsense..

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            Claire Evansposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            People misinterpret what it means for God sacrificing His only Son?
            
            One of the definitions of sacrifice:
            
            "give up (something valued) for the sake of other considerations."
            
            It doesn't mean sacrifice as to a deity which requires animal slaughter, etc. 
            
            It was not God's will for Jesus to be killed but it was permissive will.  It was people who put Jesus to death.  God did not slay Jesus.  He didn't put it into the heads of the Romans and Jews to put Jesus to death.  However, the death of Jesus was an opportunity for Jesus to take on the sin of the world to conquer death and sin.  A public crucifixion means many people would have been convinced of the resurrection. 
            
            And even though Jesus is reunited with the Father, it does not mean His suffering ends there.  He suffers with us.  He feels all the pain we do.  He has not divorced Himself from the world.

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               Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               "It was not God's will for Jesus to be killed but it was permissive will.  It was people who put Jesus to death.  God did not slay Jesus.  He didn't put it into the heads of the Romans and Jews to put Jesus to death.  However, the death of Jesus was an opportunity for Jesus to take on the sin of the world to conquer death and sin.  A public crucifixion means many people would have been convinced of the resurrection.  "
               
               Funny but in your beliefs Jesus came to save us by sacrificing his life so we could be saved from original sin. No man or woman would have been pure enough. Now that he made the sacrifice heaven is open to all that believe, where as it was not available to anyone before due to original sin.
               
               Your religion also says this was gods plan from the start and that he knows all in advance. So I put it to you that if your explanation is correct then it was not planned. And if it was planned then your explanation is incorrect. Unfortunately your religion is based on the idea that it was known to god and planned from the beginning, before time.
               
               Your religion can't have it both ways.
               
               If it was planned then god required a sacrifice in order to save us from himself, and a murder was his chosen method. The murder of his son.
               
               If I said to my creditors and those who have wronged me: Kill my only son and I will forgive you, I'd be rightly seen as a monster, and quite insane. But your god does this and you praise him and thank him for it. Something very wrong there.

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                  Claire Evansposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  By planned you make out that God influenced those who put Jesus to death.  He made them do it.  Nowhere in the Bible does it say God did that.  Permissive will is allowing something to be done to achieve a greater purpose even though what happened is not God's will.  God planned in accordance of what people did with their free will.  If someone does something, I may plan something to counter it and perhaps use it for my benefit even if I don't agree with what that person did.

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                     Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     “By planned you make out that God influenced those who put Jesus to death.  He made them do it.  Nowhere in the Bible does it say God did that.  Permissive will is allowing something to be done to achieve a greater purpose even though what happened is not God's will.  God planned in accordance of what people did with their free will.  If someone does something, I may plan something to counter it and perhaps use it for my benefit even if I don't agree with what that person did.”
                     
                     Things he knew in advance before they did it that they would do. Did god plan to save us or not? Was it an accident? Not according to your religion.
                     
                     Now. What does it take for you to forgive someone? Money? Favours? Anything? I think you know that it takes nothing to forgive. You do it because you want to. God could have just said hey, I forgive you guys. I want you all in heaven with me so I’m opening the doors.
                     
                     But no. He needed a murder in order to forgive. So no matter how you want to phrase it, the actions speak for themselves. Theatrics, not sacrifice. Insanity, cruelty, barbarism, not love.

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                        Claire Evansposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        Permissive will is not an accident.  If one knows something in advance, does it mean they have the power to change what is coming? It was an opportunity for Jesus to die publicly and rise from the dead so that people could believe. 
                        
                        
                        
                        You are comparing us to God which is fallacious.  No evil can be near God. Evil can be near us. The consequence of sin is separating oneself from God.  Sin is something that makes Satan having power over us.  It is attached to us.  However, if Jesus took on that sin and could be forgiven by God, then we can, too.  We could not be near God with sin to be forgiven unless we have an intermediary like Jesus.  We have to be cleared of that sin, that is low frequency vibrations, to get to God. 
                        
                        If one lays down their life for another, is that bad? Why would God subject Jesus to such torment if there was no other way? In order to know God, Jesus had to come to earth and evil wants to eliminate the good like it did with Jesus' life.  However, the victory was the resurrection.   What would be bad to me is if God influenced the executioners to put Jesus to death.  If He urged them on.  He did not.

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                           Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           If it looks and smells evil, it's evil. I don't care how you want to excuse it or white wash it. your god is as bad or worse than any satan myth  And no one would have had to sacrifice themselves had your god been all love. Again, all he had to do was forgive if that's what he wanted to do. Your god, according to this story is sick and twisted. Perhaps your desire to go to heaven doesn't allow you to see or admit it.

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                              Claire Evansposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              No, you want to think it looks and smells evil, not really interested in understanding it.  What do you not understand? People get put to death for doing the right thing and witnessing to the truth.  Was Jesus an exception? My goodness, you make out like Jesus said to his executioner, "Please crucify so I can save people from the hell.  Please someone kill me so I fulfill my Father's plan."  Where in the Bible does it say that?
                              
                              Would it make more sense if I said that evil beings vibrate at low frequencies which means they can feed off sin?  It can be anything negative, like murder, spite, guilt, pride.  With sin, humans will also vibrate at low frequencies living in this perpetual cycle of manipulation by demons.  So if we say evil beings vibrate at low frequencies, we can say God vibrates at a high frequency.
                              
                              I will provide an excerpt from a webpage [I don't agree with everything on this page]:
                              
                              http://whatliesbeyond-ustane.blogspot.c … id-it.html
                              
                              "They are only attracted to lower level humans, people with a lower, dark, negative vibration. The only way they can exist in this plane is to attach to humans like parasites. They feed off of our lower emotions like pain, grief, anger, rage, lust, jealousy. Someone’s vibration is based on his/her energy-soul power and consciousness..
                              
                              If someone like Jesus was real, and lived today, he would be that such someone who is on such a higher energetic vibration that those demons and all lower level forces would not be able to touch him; he would be a repellent. Only negativity and fear feed those beings. In the absence of those vibrational states when you vibrate love, harmony and peace...they cannot stand those vibrations and they retreat. That's why they don't want a balanced vibration of peace, joy and happiness on a constant base and seek to create disharmony..."
                              
                              Therefore if we vibrate at low frequencies because of sin, then how can we be in the presence of God who is only positive and would vibrate at a low frequency? So how can we reconcile with God? Through Jesus.  It is only because of the Holy Spirit that we can overcome sin by being forgiven.  It is the only way to raise way frequencies.  In that way, demons lose power over a person. 
                              
                              So therefore it is not a case of, "I just forgive you" and then open the pearly gates.  There are barriers between us and God which can only be broken down by Jesus who had to, Himself, vibrate at that low frequency being subject to demons, taking on our sins.
                              
                              Jesus could only reconcile with the Father if all sin could be forgiven.  That is all I can understand.  It's a mystery.

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                           Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           "Permissive will is not an accident.  If one knows something in advance, does it mean they have the power to change what is coming? It was an opportunity for Jesus to die publicly and rise from the dead so that people could believe. "
                           
                           So you admit he had his son murdered. Believe what?  You saying your god is that lame and powerless that he had to use a murder as device to convince people he exists?  don't you see what nonsense that is? Obviously you don't because you don't want to. But if we were not talking about this god myth but about a human dictator you would be the first to condemn them, and rightly so. But because you expect a reward from this mythical tyrant you can't afford to understand the truth.
                           
                           I get it.

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                              Claire Evansposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              He was not responsible for Jesus' death but allowed it by permissive will.  Jesus dying for our sins was not the way God was proving Jesus' existence.  It was about saving our souls.  Proof of God's existence was through Jesus being on earth testifying to the truth. 
                              
                              One thing people don't understand is that Satan is a powerful entity in his own right.  The power he has been given by sin is astonishing.  The only way that God could ever take away that power was to take away sin.  No sin, no Satan.  If God was omnipotent, then you can say it shouldn't have taken Jesus' death to save us from hell but He is not.  If He was, that means Satan would have no power and that is the furtherest from the truth. 
                              
                              What is this tyrant you are talking about? I'm assuming you are referring to what "God" did in the OT?  Yahweh is not the Father.  He was a pagan god who adopted the Israelites as his own people.  So what Yahweh did in the OT, is not what the Father did.

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                                 Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                                 So the OT god is not god? You are Gnostic then? That's what they said. So you believe in many gods?

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                                    Claire Evansposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                                    No, I'm not a Gnostic.  Satan has power like God in the form of omniscience and omnipresence and power.  So if Satan has power, then God is not omnipotent. 
                                    
                                    I believe only those two have the power of creation.  Gods mentioned in the OT sound like extraterrestrials.  So, no, evidence proves that Yahweh is not the Father. 
                                    
                                    Gnostics believe in absolute duality in that they believe there are two opposed equal forces that caused the world to come into existence.  I believe in religious duality somewhat where there are two opposed but not equal forces that caused the world to come into existence.  In they were two equal opposed forces, then Jesus would not have conquered Satan.  God can exist independently of us.  Satan cannot.  He needs sin to have power.

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                                       Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                                       There were more than one sect of Gnostic Christians. One sect said that Jesus talked about a supreme god who, as you say, was not the Jewish god, though the Jewish god did make the world. That god is evil, hence why we suffer. The father of the gods is love but he would never have created us, and certainly not as we are. The gospel of Jesus.
                                       
                                       Now the worshippers of Baal said that the Jewish god was the fallen god because he dared to tell his people he was the only god. Hence why he told the Hebrews to kill the worshipers of Baal. Sort of like the unbiblical story of satan falling because he dared to say he too was a god.
                                       
                                       Not all the twelve tribes had the same religion. The Jews come from the last two remaining tribes: the house of Begamin and the ruling tribe, the house of Judah. Hence Jewish.
                                       
                                       Nowhere in any books is the satan of Christianity explained. Passages inthe OT that are often sited are about Adam and a real king and prince of a real port island off Lebanon, who were said to be wealthy and corrupt. The prince considers himself a god.
                                       
                                       The only mention of fallen satans is in Enoch. A satan, in Jewish tradition is a watcher. They watch humanity for god and accuse us in front of him. They are cops. Satan is not an individual’s name in any reference. Enoch isn’t Jewish or Christian cannon.
                                       
                                       In Jewish tradition god is responsible for both good and evil. There is no devil. No need for one. Only in the NT is there mention of this devil. And primarily in Rev, written probably by John the hermit, not “Saint John” Scholars agree that that book wasn’t writer by the same author as the others. Christianity needs one to explain why evil things happen.
                                       
                                       So it does look like the devil is the Jewish god when he gets drunk.
                                       
                                       As for aliens: lots of theories about that, but no real evidence of giants. So... I’d remain unconvinced.
                                       
                                       Anyway, you be better off claiming that Jesus sacrificed himself for us on behalf of the father god who knew that the Jewish god would accept such a sacrifice and forgive original sin. Because otherwise, again, if he used what he knew to have is own son killed so he could forgive us, he’s a monster, because he could have just forgiven us. If it’s your father god or the Jewish god it makes no difference. It’s an unnecessary device and its cruel. You never addressed this issue.
                                       
                                       But I have a question. If the OT is not to be believed, why did we need forgiveness? What do you base the idea that the NT is to be believed?
                                       
                                       To most Christians, and in the NT itself, the book is about fulfilling all the prophesies. But if the prophets of the OT were duped, what do you base the NT on?

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                                       1. 63

                                          Claire Evansposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                                          That sounds like Marcion but the "Jewish god" is Yahweh but  he is not a divine being.  He was a physical pagan god who adopted the Israelites and fought wars for them.  Those Gnostics Christians believed that the material world is evil, which was made by the evil god and the good god only is responsible for the spiritual realm.  Now I don't believe that.  It means that we weren't created by God. 
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          Funny that.  The Hebrews did view Yahweh as Baal.  When they Israelites arrived in Canaan, Yahweh became interchangeable with Baal. 
                                          
                                          From the Hebrew dictionary:
                                          
                                          1180 Ba`aliy bah-al-ee' from 1167 with pron. suff.; my master; Baali, a symbolical name for Jehovah:--Baali.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          I think it is pretty clear when Jesus said:
                                          
                                          John 8:44
                                          
                                          You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          Job 1:1-3 says:
                                          
                                            6 ¶Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
                                          
                                          7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          Just because the Jews believed Satan wasn't evil, doesn't mean he isn't.  It doesn't mean they are right.  So if we believe that there are two opposing forces like God and Satan, it really does explain why there is evil,.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          Have you looked at the evidence put forward for people who do claim that?
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          The "Jewish god", Yahweh, was long dead.  He is not a god so he can't forgive original sin.  I did address the issue.  I mentioned God and Satan, everything good and evil vibrating at high and low frequencies respectively.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          I don't think the things in the OT didn't happen.  It is just horribly misunderstood.  In the Sumerian text, it says that man was genetically engineered.  I believe this is where we got the propensity to do evil.  Therefore it is innate that we do evil.  Since we cannot overcome that on our own, we needed Jesus. 
                                          
                                          I don't believe all the prophecies were from the prophets credited to them like the suffering servant.  For example, there are more than one writer of the book of Isaiah.  Just because there are prophecies in the OT, doesn't mean I believe they are untrue. 
                                          
                                          I will admit I'd be suspect about is written about Jesus in the NT.  At least about His supernatural powers.  People can write anything about others.  The NT alone can never be proof of Jesus being the Son of God.  It is only the presence of the Holy Spirit that can verify it.  He is available to everyone who wants Him.  What also cements my belief is how threatening Satan finds Him.  If you know the Holy Spirit, Satan will definitely makes his presence known.

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      Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I think a more important question for you Fairbear is why Christianity makes you, yourself feel terrible?  It is not normal for a person that does not believe in something to feel terrible about it.  Most Hindus do not feel terrible about Christianity.  Most Muslims do not feel terrible about Christianity.  Most Atheists do not feel terrible about Christianity.  And most Christians do not feel terrible about Hindus, Muslims or Atheists.
      
      So the question is your own personal question Fairbear.  I'd suggest that you seriously look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself "why Christianity makes me feel terrible?"  You really do not have a reason for it to make you feel terrible if you don't believe in it.  Could it be guilt?

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      hoolyshitposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      See, I don’t think that a person’s faith or lack there of depends on the feeling they get from that religion, though feelings could play a part.
      
      So when I was exploring religion, I came to the conclusion that Christianity and any other religion were stories fabricated by people from a long time ago for political reasons or genuine mental illness. And I saw all these people around me praying and believing in these tales as if they were real. Grown men and adults teaching their kids that god was real while all the imaginary friends the kids had were fake. It made me feel sick that so many people depended on this lie to make them feel whole.
      
      So while feelings did play a part, they were the outcome of the views I developed on the concept itself.

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      Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Not a bad theory as it goes. But for me it wasn't that Christianity didn't make me feel good, It did.I wanted to be a Catholic priest when I grew up.
      
      It was that I wanted truth and at age 6 I found that it didn't make sense to me. I had been brought up with a loving god that forgave all if they wanted it and just asked. But around 6 years old the mass changed from Latin to English. Fire and brimstone became the message. I found the two ideas irreconcilable. But that wasn't all. I had a good friend who was Protestant. I told him we were all god's children, so we were all brothers and sisters, as I had been taught. His father said no. God only had one son and we were all sinners from birth. We were not all brothers and sisters and some races were not related to us, and in god's bad books.
      
      This upset me, so I went to my mother for the truth. Why, if there was one god were there other religions? I even found out Catholic and protestants weren't the only religions, there were more.
      So I asked her who was right? She said we believed we were and they believed they were.
      
      She eventually laid a bomb shell on me; she said probably no one in the world knew for sure. We just had to have faith.
      
      Well that just wasn't good enough. I had to know. I vowed then that before I died I would find out.
      
      That led me to studying religion after religion, denomination after denomination, and eventually to eastern religions like Zen Buddhism.
      
      The more bible I read, which was discouraged by my religion, the more disillusioned I became. It really made no sense from start to finish. Why in the world would a loving god require the murder of his son in order to forgive us? And what did that say about the character of this god? Why would a loving god create a world where everything suffers, and where everything must kill to survive, even though it's most important rule was that we shouldn't kill?.It makes no sense.
      
      I learned a lot through Zen including how to resolve paradox. But it wasn't the answer either.
      
      In grade ten science class I had my eyes opened rather abruptly. The teacher told us a rather simple thing, as if it was just another fact without much consequence. She told us that all atoms must reach their lowest possible output of energy.
      
      I know it doesn't sound earth shattering to most people, but to me it was. It was as if someone had given me the secrets of the universe on a silver platter. That was the reason for all the diversity we see.
      
      I began studying science in earnest and started to see the framework opening up before my eyes. It all began to make sense. Science had the best chance to find out how everything works.
      
      So maybe there was no god? Not the Christian one anyway. If nature created all this then it made sense because the suffering of the world was not intentional. It was the only way it could all be done.
      
      God couldn't be perfect because a perfect thing has no needs, and therefore no need to create us. But nature keeps refining itself and creates infinite diversity by trying achieve balance. Why? Because of the laws of conservation I mentioned. It even explains the embarrassing plethora of religions.
      
      Can I say there is no god? No. But I have no positive belief that there is, which makes me an atheist. And I certainly don't believe it could be the Jewish/Christian/Muslim version. And as a seeker of truth and reality I find that there is only fact and speculation/guessing. Therefore there is no reason to believe anything. Belief in fact is not required; its fact or its not. Belief in speculation is folly and even be dangerous.
      
      I've already written a hub here so I'll stop for now.

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      Claire Evansposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I believe it has something to do with what following Christ entails.  The humble one may acknowledge there is a higher power.  Perhaps the words of Jesus ring true to them.  Then they may be interested to know who the Holy Spirit it.  Most importantly, are they willing to sacrifice their own lives for Him?
      
      For me it feels good to know that a loving God is interested in every aspect of my life and sees me through hard times. 
      
      On the other hand, someone with an ego will not like the idea of submitting to a higher power.  I have come across so many non believers who think they don't sin, are awesome and not need forgiveness.  The thought of being accountable to some higher power is awful to them. 
      
      Then they may be those who read the OT and get nauseated at what they read which I believe is understandable.  However, are they prepared to research why the OT is the way it is.
      
      It all depends on the person.

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      colorfuloneposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Faith the size of a mustard seed is the difference. It is written.

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   tantrumposted 14 years ago

   I'm a non believer, but I don't feel bad about christianity.I was one ,when a child. then I began to think for myself and didn't like a lot of things about it. So I rejected it. A lot of crimes has been committed in the name of God.

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3. 0

   ryankettposted 14 years ago

   A believer thinks that there is some sort of entity known as 'god'. A non believer does not believe that there is any sort of spiritual entity with the name of 'god' or any other name.
   
   Thats my take on it. I do not believe.

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4. 0

   \Brenda Scullyposted 14 years ago

   I wonder if you are born that way..... i could not function without a faith...... some could never have a faith strange aint it

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5. 75

   Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago

   I feel exactly the same way as Tantrum only the opposite
   
   I dont care what Atheists beleive so long as they dont try to refute my faith or ram their theories down my throat

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      tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        But why can't we refute your faith ? If we don't belive in it

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         Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Refute it by all means if I insist you accept it, as I would atheism.
         
         Sorry I might have worded that better.

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      BadCoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Well said !!

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6. 75

   Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago

   A title wont get you into heaven , any more than being born in a garage will make you a car.
   
   I think people believe in all kinds of different things ,and thats exactly whats meant by being made in Gods Image ,in my opinion- eclectic images...varied..different.

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7. 75

   Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago

   Jesus Christ.

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8. 70

   rhamsonposted 14 years ago

   I don't know if you are referencing Christianity specifically or the religion associated with it. 
   
   I have a problem with organized religion because of the injection of human failings and its consequences.  The knowledge gained from the study of religion seems to gather a following and cult like tendencies. 
   
   I love it when someone qualifies somebody or organization as Christian. It is like a pass on all your experience with basic human intelligence.  Whatever comes out of their mouth is now right and just and holy.  I look on it as a kind of reverse predjudice and am immediately suspicious.
   
   I have also seen it destroy families based on the way parents explain to their children that sin is evil and those who do not believe as they do are living a sinful life.  What if your grandparents don't believe as them.  The children are taught to love a sinful person.  What a hypocrisy and long reaching time it takes before the children grow and form opinions of their own.
   
   Believers congregate together and are very quick to exclude all who do not share the same opinions.
   
   There is a scripture I quote to believers to describe my beliefs and it comes from the Bible for their reference "Now all has been heard; hear the conclusion of the matter; Fear God and keep his commandments, for that is the whole duty of man.  For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil."
   
   I am sorry if I have offended anybody by quoting the Bible but I feel this is a necessary part of believing that over zealous christians overlook.

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      A_to_Jposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Why should any believer apologize for quoting scripture? If that is what all that other thread brought into this forum, I will not be a part of it any longer.

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9. 60

   A_to_Jposted 14 years ago

   Here is truth and if there are some who do not like it or get offended oh well.
   
   John 3:16
   "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
   
   That is the Jesus I as a Christian love. It is that awesome love that saves. It is belief in that which makes us believers in Christ. I do not see how that belief that God loves us so much he would do that for us could make anyone feel bad but that's my opinion.
   
   I break out in song...LOL
   
   love love love
   what the world needs now is love sweet love

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10. 83

    Don Wposted 14 years ago

    Why does Christianity make you feel bad Fairbear?
    
    (sorry if you already said, but I didn't see that anywhere)

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       underhiswingsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       It would be a good thing for the bear to state why.
       
       Might be the part about
       "deny yourself...follow Me...die to yourself...lose your life to find it...forsake all else and seek / follow Me...turn away from sin...hate evil...be IN the world but not OF the world...cast all of your cares upon Me...repent and change your mind...confess that Jesus Christ is The Savior...love your enemies...pray for those who persecute you and spitefully use you...turn from your wicked ways...I AM the way the truth and the life"

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11. 89

    Paragliderposted 14 years ago

    @Fairbear - "Rejection" suggests some sort of prior belief that one actively fights against. For me, I was more of a 'cultural christian' until old enough to examine things for myself. Then, the more I looked, the less I saw, so I ended up rejecting nothing, but happily concluding that there was nothing there, i.e. no god, heaven, hell, angels etc. And, with apologies to Mr UpHisAss, no satan either.

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12. 60

    quietnessandtrustposted 14 years ago

    @  -Born Again-     Take this as a word to you and ignore such as these.
    
    Proverbs 23:9
    "Don't waste your breath on fools, for they will despise the wisest advice. "
    
    Proverbs 22:10
    "Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease."
    
    
    
    God speaking here to the ones who reject correction from Him.
    
    Pro 1:24 "I called you so often, but you didn't come. I reached out to you, but you paid no attention.
    Pro 1:25 You ignored my advice and rejected the correction I offered.
    Pro 1:26 So I will laugh when you are in trouble! I will mock you when disaster overtakes you-
    Pro 1:27 when calamity overcomes you like a storm, when you are engulfed by trouble, and when anguish and distress overwhelm you.
    Pro 1:28 "I will not answer when they cry for help. Even though they anxiously search for me, they will not find me.
    Pro 1:29 For they hated knowledge and chose not to fear the Lord.
    Pro 1:30 They rejected my advice and paid no attention when I corrected them.
    Pro 1:31 That is why they must eat the bitter fruit of living their own way. They must experience the full terror of the path they have chosen.
    Pro 1:32 For they are simpletons who turn away from me-to death. They are fools, and their own complacency will destroy them.
    Pro 1:33 But all who listen to me will live in peace and safety, unafraid of harm."

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       UpHisAssposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Welcome brother - you do us a service with the lie. Loud and untrustworthy. You have done well sheeple. Well indeed.

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13. 60

    Valerie Fposted 14 years ago

    Following that rede, it is my will to advise everyone to ignore your obviously trollish posts.

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14. 87

    livelongerposted 14 years ago

    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today.”
    Mahatma Gandhi
    
    “If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be - a Christian”
    Mark Twain

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15. 0

    sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago

    You need to go to a nice neighborhood church and get to know the people. Christians aren't bad people, for the most part they are kind understanding people. As allways it's the bad ones that get the press. Some churches are very agressive but that has alot to do with the denomination and the pastor. Christians will fight as hard about issues that concern them the same as anyone else. Alot of the time people expect Christians to be the same as Christ but their not their fallable humans like the rest of the people that make up the world.

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16. 59

    LEFT HAND OF GODposted 14 years ago

    The real difference will be WHO they worship.
    Everything will become evident because of that.

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17. 0

    ahorsebackposted 7 years ago

    I wonder why the stupidity of man doesn't allow him  the understanding of one word .......Faith ?

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       Slarty O'Brianposted 7 years agoin reply to this

       Faith is the illusion of certainty when certainty can't be had. It's also a darn good device to keep people believing in an absent and probably fictitious god. Not for those wanting truth.

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18. 75

    cheaptrickposted 7 years ago

    Let's take a broader view of this for a moment.The Natural Written In Suffering of this Planet (by that I mean disasters that take hundreds of thousands of lives and leave millions suffering and miserable) does not line up with the good news of Christianity or any other happy ending story book religion.It's one thing to say that man causes his own suffering but that's not the whole story;It doesn't take into account the majority of suffering on earth which is Natural.That dubious honor belongs to God (take your pick of religions). The only good thing I can say about Christianity is it's no worse than any other 'Control the masses' programing shoved down weak willed peoples spiritual throats...and Faith?The belief in something without evidence?...no thank you...

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       Live to Learnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

       I'd be curious how natural suffering of this planet (as you put it) doesn't line up with the good news of Christianity. What do you perceive as the good news of Christianity? Maybe, it's just that you are confused on the news. I don't see anything in natural disasters which would conflict with my understanding of the message and mission of Christ.

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          cheaptrickposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          A tsunami drowns a few hundred thousand people.a volcano wipes out an entire town,an earth quake destroys a city...Is that natural enough for you?None of these are caused by people and it's not only the bad people who die...is it.
          The 'Good News' of Christianity is the ultimate salvation of all those who "Believe on my son" to not suffer the torment of hell where they will burn and choke and wail and "gnash there teeth" and be miserable for ever and ever...put there by a God who LOVES them so much he knew from the day they were born they would end up there.In case you haven't got it...When I said 'good news',it was a jibe not genuine...because religion is a delusion,a mass neurosis,a made up imaginary friend in the sky who does things for you if you ask the right way(unless you happen to be a starving child in a third world country) denial of death being final for the ego...which is us.Religion has and does cause more suffering than any other single blight effecting the earth.

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             Live to Learnposted 7 years agoin reply to this

             well, if my take on it was the same as yours I'd agree with you.

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       Claire Evansposted 7 years agoin reply to this

       Christianity does not espouse that there will no longer by any suffering.  That is inevitable in a world governed by Satan.  The good news is that Jesus has conquered evil and that it will no longer exist when the old earth passes away.  We have hope in eternal life to be reunited with the Father.

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          cheaptrickposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Generalities and nebulous rationalizations are always the answers religionist give when logic and reason highlight the absurdity of  their man made religions and their fairy tale books.
          If God exists,no book or human mind can contain even the first jot of understanding that God...which brings the word 'Hope' to the forefront and gives it the importance it deserves.

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             Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

             It give hopelessness when they claim the second coming prophesy brings end to earth. Self prophesy of this kind dose bring great danger when used as a tool for fear by  corporatism

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             Claire Evansposted 7 years agoin reply to this

             If we had an impersonal God then, yes, it would be impossible to even remotely understand God.  However, if one accepts what is in in the Bible, Jesus spoke about the Father and representing Him.
             
             John 14:
             
               7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now you do know Him and have seen Him.” 8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?…
             
             The Holy Spirit is the teacher so why can't we understand the nature of God?

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                cheaptrickposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                People seem to pass over that big juicy "If" at the beginning of their quoting the bible to validate the bible which not only sounds but Is absurd.
                I've yet to see any objective evidence that validates the claims of the bibles origin or contents presented and I have kept up in hopes that someone would.
                Some of us would love for the loving wonderful side of the bible to be true;We're just not willing to give up rationality to do it.Sorry to say,you cant "Fake it till you make it"in this case.As Kierkegaard once said "Either you believe or you don't". I'm afraid at this point...I don't.

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                   Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                   There is high degrees of truth and low degrees of truth. Because the Bible has been more wrongly translated more than any other book. My logic said it has low degree of truth.

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                   Claire Evansposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                   I don't know who else other than those who contributed to the Bible could know what Jesus said.  Therefore if you are looking for evidence other than the Bible attesting to what Jesus said, you won't find it.  However, there is a pagan source that mentions that Jesus was put to death by Pontius Pilate.  That is the Roman historian, Tacitus, who lived from the 1st to 2nd century.
                   
                   Have you ever considered that not everything in this life is rational? There's the supernatural.  So as much as logic is important in this life, faith is also important.  They are not mutually exclusive.

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                      Castlepalomaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                      Do have faith in up, down and sideways.
                      
                      As far as supernatural, why not have faith in Superhero Hollywood movies. At lease they are up to date and more believable than people living in the dark ages claiming to be smarter than. us. I think my daughter would be an old person back in biblical day terms. She would more worldly and smarter than Moses

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19. 61

    Live to Learnposted 7 years ago

    It fascinates me why people want to create all of this imaginary drama around the idea of God. I suppose it makes for a wonderful past time, creating this fantasy world of good vs evil but I'm not sure how healthy it is.

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    Castlepalomaposted 7 years ago

    The greatest pass time is lying, then they become more onto supernatural superstitious lying with imaginary friend going to war. By then your living a lie and super Hippocratics.
    
    If they were just cherry picking some of the healthy mediphor from the Bible, it's ok. Then left the negative stuff in the Bible alone, like greed, war, how people have sex and so on we would be alright. Hell, prisons and slavery is worst than their crimes. The Bible is not so special when the penalty is greater than the crime.

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    The0NatureBoyposted 4 years ago

    I thought I was a Christian from the time I asked my devout mother if I could be Baptized at age 4 and my reason gave her cause to believe I knew what I was talking about. At age 28 I had an experience I call my new conception and began studying the Bible in earnest. At 31 I forsook my job, wife, family, money and with 5 changes of clothes left for the nomad life the Bible say is the way of the Born Again.
    
    During those 3 years of studying I noticed Acts 11 is where the name came from because the disciples were following the example Jesus had them follow while living with him. It also revealed a New Birth requires time like the natural birth (Romans 1:20) and John 3:3-8 and many other scriptures revealed one has to become a nomad.
    
    Your Question's Answer
    
    In answer your question I say the reason is because everyone who is not spiritually born will only look at half of things and accept one half. Everything is divided and some human focus on one half while others focus on the opposite half. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil metaphor (Genesis 2) reveals that and require us to forsake all of our teachings (verse 24) and reintegrate our spiritual selves with our physical. As long as we don't there can never be united human enough for lasting peace. Born again human becomes man like tadpoles become frogs or caterpillars become butterflies and until then we are blinded by our preferences. (See https://hubpages.com/religion-philosoph … Born-Again for a better understanding.)

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    Mark O Richardsonposted 4 years ago

    I am a Christian. Everyone is different. We all have different experiences. Faith is a choice. My brothers and I were all raised the same, but only I embrace fully the faith that I was taught. My brother just older than me looks at it as the glass is half empty, while it is half full to me. If we have never been "pricked in our hearts" by the Lord, feel the Holy Ghost/Spirit, then we are less likely to embrace the faith. In scripture, I have read: "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren", so it is important to act by doing what is right because as it says in the book of Revelation, we are judged by our works.

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       The0NatureBoyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

       Mark, I don't see a half empty nor full glass, I see it half full of the substance desired and half full of air. To say a glass is half full is to suggest a day is only the, on the average, 11 hours of light while ignoring a day has a full 24 hours with 11 of darkness and 2 transitional hours between them. The objective minded will generally see the unseen while the conditioned mind sees in part, as I believe Paul said, we see in part and we prophesy in part but when that which is whole comes that which is in part will be done away with or something like it.

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