kerryg wrote:

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

If you want to continue to step on the landmine, be prepared to accept the consequences.

Drop it.

I'm quaking in my shoes, I'm sure.

But seriously, I do apologize for causing offense. I was offended by your implication that all homeschoolers are abused and "psychologically dominated" and I let the sarcasm come on a little too strong in my reply.

I am sorry you had a bad experience homeschooling, but please don't suggest that because your experience was bad, homeschooling in general is bad. I do agree, even strongly agree, that there are problem parents who abuse the privilege, or allow their children to abuse it, but they are by no means the majority. The quality of public education in this country is dismal, in general, and there are many, many parents who legitimately wish to offer their children the best possible education and whose only feasible option is homeschooling.

You really lashed out there but it's like you said "I'm quaking in my shoes. I
m sure", it's only the internet and its well known that people don't have feelings.  Matter of fact its well known that there are no people on the internet, just words on a screen typed into a computer.

Apology accepted, no harm was meant.

I do have a hard time taking you seriously though (rollseyes) pardon me for saying this but you really don't strike me as a sincere person, writing one sentence that is sarcastic and following it up with another that is supposed to be a sincere apology. 

Let us agree to disagree.

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

But by your same logic I could easily ask you to please not suggest that because your experience was good that homeschooling in general is good.

But I very specifically did not say that, even in my original post. I know there are problems in some homeschool families, and I personally think there are problems in some families whose members (including the children) wouldn't necessarily agree with my estimation. It breaks my heart that this is the case, that something that was so good and healthy for me can be so abused by others, but I also don't particularly see how most of the children of these families would be so much better off if they attended public school. True cases of physical abuse (of which I was not aware of any within our homeschool support group, and certainly none among my group of friends) excepted, most teachers are not going to be able to do anything about brainwashing and "psychological domination". You could argue that at the very least they'd be exposed to other viewpoints, but in my experience, these people inoculate their kids against heresies like evolution well before most schools ever get around to the subject.

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

That however does not automatically mean homeschool environments are a good alternative or that they are healthy or that people's experiences are good in general.  THEY ARE NOT GOOD IN GENERAL THERE IS NOT GOOD EXPERIENCE IN GENERAL BECAUSE UNLIKE PUBLIC SCHOOLS THE HOMESCHOOLING IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE PARENTS!  That is my point. 

True, it's certainly not for everyone, and there are many people I wish had never heard of the idea. (Though also many people I wish would consider it more strongly - I've seen so many bright kids wasting away in dumbed-down public school curricula it makes me ill.) It does depend on the parents, but I'd argue it depends on the school just as much. One of my best friends from college attended a really excellent public school and never really understood my enthusiasm for homeschooling until she started teaching in a school (an ELEMENTARY school, no less) where the police routinely have to be called in to break up fights. A couple weeks ago, they actually had to bring in an entire SWAT team. Now obviously very few schools are as appalling as those in the poor neighborhoods of Chicago, but even the comparative mecca of the rural public school I attended was completely unable to provide the enrichment my siblings and I (among others) needed in order to work at the level we were able to. Homeschooling is not the best answer for everyone in this situation, but it's not true that the only reason people choose it is for reasons of control and manipulation either.

ETA: I'm not aware of any serious study either. Anecdotally, most of the former homeschoolers I know loved it, a few disliked the lack of structure, and one thinks it's a joke because her mom basically let her and her brother play video games all day. Of people I don't know, but know of, when I was in high school, a kid in the nearest city to us shot his mother to death, and I think it's safe to say he didn't care for the experience.

kerryg wrote:

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

But by your same logic I could easily ask you to please not suggest that because your experience was good that homeschooling in general is good.

But I very specifically did not say that, even in my original post. I know there are problems in some homeschool families, and I personally think there are problems in some families whose members (including the children) wouldn't necessarily agree with my estimation. It breaks my heart that this is the case, that something that was so good and healthy for me can be so abused by others, but I also don't particularly see how most of the children of these families would be so much better off if they attended public school. True cases of physical abuse (of which I was not aware of any within our homeschool support group, and certainly none among my group of friends) excepted, most teachers are not going to be able to do anything about brainwashing and "psychological domination". You could argue that at the very least they'd be exposed to other viewpoints, but in my experience, these people inoculate their kids against heresies like evolution well before most schools ever get around to the subject.

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

That however does not automatically mean homeschool environments are a good alternative or that they are healthy or that people's experiences are good in general.  THEY ARE NOT GOOD IN GENERAL THERE IS NOT GOOD EXPERIENCE IN GENERAL BECAUSE UNLIKE PUBLIC SCHOOLS THE HOMESCHOOLING IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE PARENTS!  That is my point. 

True, it's certainly not for everyone, and there are many people I wish had never heard of the idea. (Though also many people I wish would consider it more strongly - I've seen so many bright kids wasting away in dumbed-down public school curricula it makes me ill.) It does depend on the parents, but I'd argue it depends on the school just as much. One of my best friends from college attended a really excellent public school and never really understood my enthusiasm for homeschooling until she started teaching in a school (an ELEMENTARY school, no less) where the police routinely have to be called in to break up fights. A couple weeks ago, they actually had to bring in an entire SWAT team. Now obviously very few schools are as appalling as those in the poor neighborhoods of Chicago, but even the comparative mecca of the rural public school I attended was completely unable to provide the enrichment my siblings and I (among others) needed in order to work at the level we were able to. Homeschooling is not the best answer for everyone in this situation, but it's not true that the only reason people choose it is for reasons of control and manipulation either.

Where did I say that was the only reason people choose it?

That one other poster in here who talked about it had a fabulous experience and I was quite flabberghasted and impressed at how dedicated his parents truly were, <<and my comments reflected that>>


Lousy parents=Lousy homeschooling

Good parents=Good homeschooling

My point is that in a public school there are MORE PEOPLE, and MORE VIEWPOINTS.  Yes you have the bullies and yes you have the rejects, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE THE PEOPLE WHO STICK UP FOR THEM.

There are MORE people in public school than just your siblings and parents, so if things head south generally speaking you quite possibly could have MORE OPTIONS.

I also speak from experience in that area too as I was in a good quality magnet school from grades 4, 5, 6, and 7.  I really did not fit in and I never studied and was bored out of my mind even though I got honor roll like 3 times and generally made all a's with a b or two.  In that situation even though I did not fit in I stil had a few friends (most of them were from the almost all black non magnet portion of the program as in my experience most of the magnet kids were stuckup and narcissistic).  These friends I would hang out with and talk about anything and everything NOT related to academics and in a way that was NON intellectual.  They were more down to earth and that provided me with the balance I needed at the time and an actual challenge too because I learned to befriend people who were not so heady all the time rather than my magnet school peers who couldnt give a flip about my almost totally absent minded self anyway and rejected me.

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

Where did I say that was the only reason people choose it?

Well, there's this for starters:

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

Gimme a break, homeschooling is for the backward, in my experience the only people who make it alive out of homeschooling are the children who aren't selected for the majority of the assbeatings by the father, or the majority of the psychological domination by the father or mother or both.

Psychological domination in homeschooling happens all the time, in my opinion it is an inevitable result of their being no boundaries between parent and children where the child can have healthy exposure to other kids and other people.

My experience, incidentally, sounds very similar to Akita-jitsu's, except that I went straight from 6th grade through 12th and was too much of a goody-two-shoes to have bad grades in school even though I was bored out of my mind.

I've got a lens on Squidoo about my experience, if you're interested, though it's in need of some updating and expansion: http://www.squidoo.com/evergreenschool

Regardless, I agree it's time to agree to disagree on this subject. See you around.

kerryg wrote:

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

Where did I say that was the only reason people choose it?

Well, there's this for starters:

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

Gimme a break, homeschooling is for the backward, in my experience the only people who make it alive out of homeschooling are the children who aren't selected for the majority of the assbeatings by the father, or the majority of the psychological domination by the father or mother or both.

Psychological domination in homeschooling happens all the time, in my opinion it is an inevitable result of their being no boundaries between parent and children where the child can have healthy exposure to other kids and other people.

My experience, incidentally, sounds very similar to Akita-jitsu's, except that I went straight from 6th grade through 12th and was too much of a goody-two-shoes to have bad grades in school even though I was bored out of my mind.

I've got a lens on Squidoo about my experience, if you're interested, though it's in need of some updating and expansion: http://www.squidoo.com/evergreenschool

Regardless, I agree it's time to agree to disagree on this subject. See you around.

The words "In my experience" automatically disqualify that statement as being an absolute one.

Also the part where I said "Psychological domination in homeschooling happens all the time, in my opinion it is an inevitable result of their being no boundaries between parent and children WHERE THE CHILD CAN HAVE HEALTHY EXPOSURE TO OTHER KIDS AND OTHER PEOPLE."

You had healthy exposure to kids and other people, I was talking about a situation where the parents are not only controlling or even just dominating but cultic and in such a situation there is no other outcome.  If you were not in that situation (and obviously you never have been) then it doesn't apply to you.  There are other people who have good experiences.

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

I certainly do think that your situation came out good, you had parents who were very active and did not attempt to control you.

That is truly a good thing and I am glad it turned out well.

My only point is there are some whose experiences do not turn out so well if the parents are not as committed, open, and kind as yours evidently were.

I tend to estimate that as being the exception to the rule (your kind of experience), but perhaps I am indeed wrong.

In that quote taken from a post made in regards akita-jitsu's comments on his own homeschooling, I posted something that does not support your contention that I am intellectually contending some absolutist position.

You are indeed insisting on putting words in my mouth (not just putting them but insisting on it).  So I do agree, it is time to disagree.

Go somewhere else there are other people's mouths to fill and insist on it.

Also you will pardon me if I don't join you in revelling in your experiences.

Enjoy the gift that has been given to you, is all I can say to you.

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

The words "In my experience" automatically disqualify that statement as being an absolute one.

This is, technically, true, but do you see how your words could have given offense to those of us for whom "ass-beatings," etc. were never part of the picture, particularly when combined with accusations (not all of which carried similar disclaimers) of backwardness, naivete, and complicity in our own oppression?

kerryg wrote:

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

The words "In my experience" automatically disqualify that statement as being an absolute one.

This is, technically, true, but do you see how your words could have given offense to those of us for whom "ass-beatings," etc. were never part of the picture, particularly when combined with accusations (not all of which carried similar disclaimers) of backwardness, naivete, and complicity in our own oppression?

Still trying to make me say things I did not, I never said 'you guys' 'were complicit in your own oppression'.

You adequately pointed out early on this this was my experience, why is my experience offensive to you?

Was it because I stated it pessimistically?

I am honestly trying to figure out how me trying to share my experience (like everyone else here) constitutes offense of any sort.  What do you think is going to happen when someone who has been messed with shares a painful experience, of course they are going to have bias, but that does not mean that they want to offend.  I mean hell, why can't you just chalk it up to some damned liberal or something?  Surely in this day and age that is a common thing to do.  I can see how my words could have been taken as offensive but I did qualify them (read above post again).

Especially given the inherent bias which should be obvious to all the other adults on this board.

I thought you said we were going to agree to disagree.

Evidently not, but in any case I will not be replying to your manipulative posts from now on.

If you cannot see that I have inherent bias and chalk it up to someone whose been hurt severely and did not mean offense then that is your problem at this point.

It is called a bad mood and I did not mean offense.  I am not accusing you of anything at this point except not leaving me the hell alone.  That I am accusing you of.

Leave me the hell alone.

Agree to disagree and drop it.

Drop it.

DROP IT.

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

I mean hell, why can't you just chalk it up to some damned liberal or something?

Among other things, because I am pretty damn liberal myself.

I'm just saying that there's a world of difference between saying "I had a terrible experience as a homeschooler and am very concerned that there is not enough state oversight to prevent abuses like mine" and "Those nice outgoing people you see coming from homeschool families are the ones who were not getting their ass beat or psychologically whored out and dominated by their mother or father or both.  Their the ones that got treated nicely instead.  Their also the ones that typically bought the isolation rhetoric of "social conformity in the public schools is bad" while ironically gulping down total or near total social conformity in the environments they were raised in.  It is easy to buy that arguement when your not the one getting the backhand everytime you don't."

About as much of a difference, in fact, as there is between saying "Please be careful not to allow your own experiences to color your argument to the point that you imply that all homeschoolers suffer from the same abuse you did" and "Just because you had an unhappy homeschool experience is no reason to project your misery and daddy issues on the rest of us," in fact. For which, mea culpa.

If you come in, guns blazing with highly charged language like that, you are going to piss people off, no matter how much semantic backpeddling you try to do when you get called on it, and the sooner you realize it the better.

I hope you're able to get some decent therapy or something to work through those issues, because carrying that level of bitterness around with you isn't healthy, and I'm sorry that something that was so good an experience for so many of us landed you (and plenty of others, I'm sure) in need of such help.

Zarm,

The only way to stop this argument is not posting on this thread any more

Misha wrote:

Zarm,

The only way to stop this argument is not posting on this thread any more

Probably true. It appears we both have a severe case of this: http://xkcd.com/386/

kerryg wrote:

Misha wrote:

Zarm,

The only way to stop this argument is not posting on this thread any more

Probably true. It appears we both have a severe case of this: http://xkcd.com/386/

I've been there, too
You'll learn just to let it go after some time

kerryg wrote:

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

I mean hell, why can't you just chalk it up to some damned liberal or something?

Among other things, because I am pretty damn liberal myself.

I'm just saying that there's a world of difference between saying "I had a terrible experience as a homeschooler and am very concerned that there is not enough state oversight to prevent abuses like mine" and "Those nice outgoing people you see coming from homeschool families are the ones who were not getting their ass beat or psychologically whored out and dominated by their mother or father or both.  Their the ones that got treated nicely instead.  Their also the ones that typically bought the isolation rhetoric of "social conformity in the public schools is bad" while ironically gulping down total or near total social conformity in the environments they were raised in.  It is easy to buy that arguement when your not the one getting the backhand everytime you don't."

About as much of a difference, in fact, as there is between saying "Please be careful not to allow your own experiences to color your argument to the point that you imply that all homeschoolers suffer from the same abuse you did" and "Just because you had an unhappy homeschool experience is no reason to project your misery and daddy issues on the rest of us," in fact. For which, mea culpa.

If you come in, guns blazing with highly charged language like that, you are going to piss people off, no matter how much semantic backpeddling you try to do when you get called on it, and the sooner you realize it the better.

I hope you're able to get some decent therapy or something to work through those issues, because carrying that level of bitterness around with you isn't healthy, and I'm sorry that something that was so good an experience for so many of us landed you (and plenty of others, I'm sure) in need of such help.

My emotions have settled and I will speak and finish this.

It was not "homeschooling's" fault really, my folks got involved with people who were very similar to al qaeda, difference being the level of violence they used on their members and everyone else, (no major terrorist acts so far although I am sure the Feds prolly have a file on the group).  This group was monitored by the French Foreign Legion which had a file on it as a paramilitary group engaged from time to time in terrorist type activities.

The group my parents are associated with and which I have been away from for some time now has simply not had it's chance.

Extremism is alive and well in america and the people I knew in the group were quite malicious and angelic about it.

I am sorry, sometimes I see blood red and I have to let it go, I apologize.

I certainly do think homeschooling is unhealthy for those who are caught up with bad parents, and that innately any given homeschool situation has some difficult issues that have to be addressed by good pro-active parents in order to work, but homeschooling is not necessarily either good or bad, (although if what you say is true then perhaps most homeschool experiences are good overall in the states). 

And yes I am getting "help" in a safe-house, one of only two of it's kind in the US that exists specifically as a way to "debrief" from one of these types of entities.


It is difficult but perhaps by sharing it there will be less tension.



Yes I too have liberal type tendencies, I just want peace, that is all.

The people I was associated with in the past (through no fault of my own) could accurately be described as Modern Day Templars, both in form and function.

I truly do wonder what they will do now that Benedict XVI has lifted the excommunication from the Templars, perhaps they will just ressurect it gradually.

These people were truly evil and very malicious, but for what it's worth I can say trying to reproduce such an experience and the total ecstasy that comes from it is almost impossible outside the microscosm.


So you know who or what I am talking about here is a link:

http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb11.htm

This was the man who lead the zealots (they still exist) that my folks and entire family were a part of.  I was partially raised with that.

This is not fundamentalism, this is not Church of Scientology (cultism) this is an out an out terrorist organization with nothing less than the goal of world domination.

Sometimes I get miffed that is all, and it takes a while for my head to clear.


I wish life had not turned out this way, I really do but it has, I am rebuilding starting anew and getting on with things as much as I can possibly. 

The above link will show you what I was really educated in when not studying academics (which I had to teach myself <<all by myself>> at home).

I suffer from far more than bitterness, far far more.  I am just glad the red has cleared.


I apologize, I just felt so cornered. 


Who knows maybe "they" will haul me off to gitmo but at this point I don't care.   The claim of being in such a group itself is so ridiculous most people probably will not take it seriously/believe that happened to me anyway (even though it is quite true).  In any case I am away from the group and getting help for the Complex PTSD and moving on to normal life.

In the end I just want to say I did not mean anything by it I was not myself at the time and I am genuinely sorry.

On a lighter note, I suppose this post means I will never be running for politician! (yay!! I got a dirt trail!).

hahah

Peace

Zaim,

It seems to me you are doing a sterling job of rebuilding your self and your life.

I salute you.

Mark

Mark Bennett wrote:

Zaim,

It seems to me you are doing a sterling job of rebuilding your self and your life.

I salute you.

Mark

I don't mean to bump a dead thread, I was very very afraid to post here but I will.

Thank you Mark.  I appreciate that.

To kerryg, no offense taken.  To Mark Bennet, same, no offense taken.

My apologies


P.S.

Doublethink is ruthless.  Absolutely ruthless.

So is someone who has so much control over you that you cannot feel basic emotions related to physical as well as emotinal causes such as pain, or even intense pain without their permission or the permission of a controller.  The feeling simply does not register, even if someone grips you in a pressure point, (a cop friend of mine tried this on me once just horseplaying around and I just stared at him blankly).

Zarm,

Why don't you write a hub about your homeschooling experience? Properly crafted hub will help others to see what you went through, and crafting it may help you to let it go You will have all the time you need and no pressure except for your own internal one...

Misha wrote:

Zarm,

Why don't you write a hub about your homeschooling experience? Properly crafted hub will help others to see what you went through, and crafting it may help you to let it go You will have all the time you need and no pressure except for your own internal one...

You know what, your right Misha, I will.

I will write about my homeschool experience and everything that surrounded it.

Good advice, and you are right I have all the time I need.

Perhaps it is more proper to call my parents' pathetic attempt at homeschooling more one of "buying me the books", and instead focus on what I did and call it self-schooling.

Just got a copy of my GED from the competent state agency that tested me back in '99 and I am looking at the scores:

test1: writing skills  standard score 60  percenteile rank:87
test2: social studies   standard score 58  percentile rank: 81
test3: science  standard score: 66  percentile rank: 89
test4:  interpreting literature and the arts  standard score 62  percentile rank: 90
test5:  mathematics  standard score:  59  percentile rank:  85

All self taught, so I suppose it is better for me to refer to it as a "homeschool" environment in name only as I mainly taught, tested, and graded myself.  More appropriate would be self schooled as stated.

Not only that but done under extreme duress and largely under the influence of deceptive coercive methods of control, so welp, I guess I have a lot to be proud of.  Or perhaps it was all just what I was supposed to do?  Perhaps like many things in life, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

I was never homeschooled so it is interesting to read about the experiences of those who were.  Thanks for sharing Zarm.

SweetiePie wrote:

I was never homeschooled so it is interesting to read about the experiences of those who were.  Thanks for sharing Zarm.

hello sweetie pie,


where like, me too never been home schooled. where you have a teacher at home  spying on what you are going to do and etc. but i do study at home and try to learn something new on my own, specially now we're living in the world of technology, in just one click, you can explore the world.....

but wait, can anybody tell the advantages and disadvantages of kids who are in public school and a homeschooled one?

i am just curious.


can anybody tell me?

The consensus seems to be that homeschooling is good as long as the person home schooling is competent enough.

I probably would have done better being homeschooled as I was picked on a lot as a kid and was miserable until I went to College. But, I don't think my parents would have been the best people to home school me as neither of them were academically inclined.

I was homeschooled on a internet academy basically just teaching myself without my parents even involved, would you consider internet school a type of home school or more like an independent study.