Old vs. New

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   Agro Donkeyposted 15 years ago

   Why do we have a New Testiment anyway? If God is all powerful and all knowing wouldn't He have seen that the Old Testiment wouldn't work and just started with the New Testiment to begin with? Then why the change from wrath and vengance to love and forgiveness? I'm sure that Sodom would have loved to be forgiven instead of being wipped from the face of the earth?

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      dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      new testimate means new members, more donations and thus more income for the pastor. so we water the Word  down, make it all forgiven, and everyone in the room gets a trophy...Its the new generation man, everyone is empowerd!!!!!!   So jump in the baptisim pit and open your check book!

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      1. 61

         Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Old testament is Moses, children of Israel leading into the appearance of the Messiah. The christians say that Jesus was it. The New testament is for his followers, unfortunately, his path was usurped by that murderous scamp, Paul, and the idiot Peter. The Jews, by the way, are still waiting for their Messiah.

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            paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

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      Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Sodom, or at least the King of Sodom, had seen God's servant Abram in action as Abram rescued Lot and recovered Sodom's food supplies that had been taken by enemy Nations, and had heard Abram give glory to the Most High God (Genesis 14).....so it's not like Sodom as a whole wasn't given a previous chance to be saved......That's one exzample of how rulers have such responsibility to the people, and when a wicked ruler has power, the people often fall, either willingly or unwillingly, into huge moral chaos.  Reminds me of today in America; people know right from wrong, but many just don't care, and they lie to others and themselves, saying a just God wouldn't destroy them nor send their souls to hell.
      
      At any rate, the events of the New Testament are PROOF of God's Love for mankind despite their rebellion, and the example of Christ shows us that it IS possible to repent and get forgiveness and to control one's actions even in the face of huge opposition.

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         Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Brenda, you know this is incorrect --as even the text states. The "proof" is in the pudding --so to speak-- the fruit of Eternal Life manifest EXACTLY as the resurrected firstborn of many. Exactly as --no "if", "and" or "buts".
         
         James.

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            Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The proof is that Jesus died for us all, James.  You continue to try to make His sacrifice of none effect.  But you cannot do so.  If Jesus hadn't made that act of Love, the denyers would be in immediate danger of fire and brimstone literally just like they were in Sodom, instead of having vivid advance warning of hell like we do now.  It wasn't some ethereal theory.  He actually suffered and died. His sacrifice stands, and His people stand.

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               Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               That is NOT proof. That is evidence of the fulfillment of Covenant, before the resurrection. You will note after that, IS proof, by manifestation ONLY. The "proof" your are describing was commanded to be in every person who believes. That IS what the texts states. This has been my argument against "Judeo-Christians" for years. YOU HAVE NO FRUIT. Show the fruit and you don't need the text to validate the ethereal ideology. You carry the "loop recording" || Memorex text of Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. Yet in spite of that Pharisee redundancy, the Spirit desires to manifest what He is, in you and every other human. This was the ENTIRE point from Adam to The Anointing!!!
               But laziness and doctrine of HF & BS has caused billions to be suspended in an ethereal ideology for too long.
               
               Sorry if that comes off sounding brass, but like my daddy would say, "put up or shut up". Christians crow "Jesus" without so much as a shred of understanding as to why or what or how, but have the sheer, "non-humble" audacity to tell me or anyone else what "effect" the Work was for?! Really???!
               
               Still, it is not entirely your fault, you were taught this for years. Hell AND death have been swallowed up in the victory of them both. The text says that emphatically...
               Playtime is over.
               Either you're in --by evidence of fruit-- or your out. No in between anymore. No more, "it's okay, the messiah is coming and will save me", like the Hebrews believed. Because, if you recall correctly, that in between ended with descend into the Pit and the resurrection from it...
               
               James.

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      Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      There is no such attribute as "Old Testament" or "New Testament". Torah/Tanahk is a history of the Law & Prophets. It has been coupled with the 4G (called the Gospels) and many correspondences titled "New Testament". None of which have any baring on manifesting EL. They are cyclical doctrines passed down as "gospel truth", that deliver nothing but HF&BS (Hell Fire & BrimStone) in spite of the text reading Life (Eternal) and Love.
      
      
      James.

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   4. 77

      DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Old vs. New. That is simple...Old Testement is the scriptures that the Jews followed, written before Jesus came around. The new Testement was taken from various texts that were written after Jesus's death. It was all put together to allow for this Sacred Scripture for the new religion of Christianity to be taken as a separate religion from Judeo Feiths. The letters of Paul was the first texts written, followed by the Gospel of "Mark", and then "Matthew and Luke" was written later based off what "Mark" had written and some other texts.

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         Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         "Old Testament is the scriptures that the Jews followed....."
         
         Please don't think I'm having a pop at you but I've this sort of line after donkey's years in churches. This Christian thinking leads them to ignore the OT and then we wonder why the church comes up with so many crazy doctrines. It's only by studying the OT that we can make sense of the NT.

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            DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Agreed. I was just simply pointing out why there is two.

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2. 61

   knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

   Probably has something to do with a new religion was started.

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3. 0

   just_curiousposted 13 years ago

   I never saw it as God's need for anything. I figured it was man's need for reassurance. I simply  assumed ancient man needed a different type. I always thought of the two as a cosmic pat on the shoulder, for evolving civilizations. Kind of, telling us 'don't worry, it'll all be ok in the end'.
   
   I always thought people were putting too much emphasis on the wrong points. Still do.

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   Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago

   Yeah, case in point above.

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   1. 71

      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      

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      just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hey Brenda. What does your take on christianity say about talking behind someone's back? Good thing? I always thought it was a sign of a less than loving person and someone who had miserably failed to get the whole point of the message of Christ. Just an opinion.

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5. 0

   Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago

   You know what the main difference is between you and me, James?
   
   You desire to see outward signs like instant physical healing.  You want to touch people and have them say you have the power of God in you.
   I desire to see people's souls saved.  I want to see their hearts touched and come to Love Jesus, to see HIS power manifested in their hearts as they become born-again.

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      Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Quite remarkably to the contrary. If the manifest glory of Creator is inward it absolutely will show outward --in body-brain/mind-spirit AND in actions.
      
      What annoys me most is you (and similar folk) constantly dividing or trying to separate the natural from the spiritual human being. You've been doing that since the first man died, because of the lack of Life in you. But now Life has been restored and still you persist on dividing. Babel was divided once, then the Spirit came and restored the languages; mankind was divided by doctrine, the Spirit came and removed all doctrine; humanity was divided in himself and died, then the Spirit came and restored Life in body & spirit; humanity was divided from Creator, Creator made intercession and removed the division.
      
      So why are you so divided in yourself as to believe yet not "do" what the word says. You say you "hear it" or "you get A word", then run off to read a book, instead of stopping to listen to that work coming from the Spirit. Like millions who claim to believe, you don't do --or only do what you "think" is a sufficient measure. Then, you go oof "darkness, devil and gotta-get em -saved" hunting instead of just listening to the Spirit who was expressly sent to "lead and guide into all truth".
      
      Funny, the text I read says to be a living sacrifice -100%, not a dead one, nor divided in any form or pseudo-logos aka "plastic" fruit.
      
      Now, as for healing, cannot recall how many times I have been "healed" in body & thought. And healing is just the tip of the resurrection "iceberg".
      
      Let me put it bluntly: I --and many others to be precise-- desire "believers", "atheists", "scientists", "selfists" and a host of others "ists" to stop pretending. Stop making "it" up how they see it or read it or observed it or dismissed it --and start doing what they keep regurgitating like a Memorex Tape Recording.
      If you cannot "rightly divide/discern" the resurrection event, how can you possibly have a righteous mind and certainly manifest righteousness (1 of the 3 elements of the "kingdom") while claiming to be rightly discerning Torah or the 4G --and even the Pauline letters?
      
      
      James.

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         Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         To stop pretending about what, how, in what way, James?
         
         And again there you go with a confusion of wordiness, while I simply want to see people be born-again.
         I think surely you confuse even yourself as you attempt to discern the Word.   I don't have a problem with the Pauline letters.   Why do you?

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            Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            B, you already know the answer to that; I for one, will not insult you by claiming you don't know the answer to that.
            
            And that is the trouble. You cannot --in any way shape or form-- see another born again by the method you and the churches are using. The problem with new-age Christian doctrine is just that "bag-em and tag-em and let God do the rest". else they are going to face John's Revelation "horrors". Both of which are false teachings --both of which do not (and never did, follow Immanu El nor the Spirit's instruction). All the 12 (and others) were told: was go and tell the whole world they HAVE BEEN saved; to accept the unconditional (no strings) Covenant gift; receive the anointing of the Spirit, in all it fullness and end the game of Life v. Death in them once and for all.
            
            And by that visible proof --evidence of the Spirit both inward AND outward-- all men would come and all men would receive their equal portion of Eternal Life. Instead Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, The Secret, Science and more are doing nothing but "creating" more indoctrinated clones of humanism.
            
            The "word" I am discerning, is not the "Word" you read each day. The Breath (word) in me is quite rational and quite powerful, to the point were it actual does divide my thoughts from the intents of my spirit. Sometimes it is uncomfortable, other times joyful -heck, sometimes I don't understand why at first. But after that water of Life rushes in, to heal those thoughts and soothe, it all makes perfect sense to my heart, mind and body --collectively. Nothing hidden, no mystery to figure out. Clear as that star in a bright blue sky. As was promised --as was Adam.
            
            So, maybe there is a difference between us after all. The word in me --and others-- is alive, the words in your books are not. They are dead because of people holding on to the Law of Sin/Death which is now dead to those who have chosen Life without question; a Life without Judgment; a Life of Righteousness, Peace & Joy in the Spirit. (aka The Kingdom of "God"; The Kingdom of Heaven --to exemplify: see Rev 21 and Immanu El's mention of THAT kingdom "in you".
            
            James.

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6. 58

   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   Old vs. New
   
      I always looked at the "OLD" Testament as describing mans path away from the GRACEs of God
   
   
      And the new Testament being about mans quest for retracing his steps,   ....   
   
      I ask myself ?  Is the treasure still back there ???
   
      Or ...  is it up ahead ?

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7. 58

   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   Brenda said
   I desire to see people's souls saved.
   = =
   me
   Another way of saying the same thing
   I want to assist in watching a person regain their life force that they were born with.
   
   
   Sometimes it is best to unique them
   People are unique.  The only to catch a unique person Youneak up on UM
      = = = = = = =
   
   
   I want to see their hearts touched and come to Love Jesus, to see HIS power manifested in their hearts as they become born-again.
   = - = -   
     Yep !  to watch someone getting healthy is a good thing.
     I would think that God likes watching that too ,,,  no matter how it happens.
     Even when uneak.up.onum.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Not really the same thing, Jerami.
      The Bible talks about physical life versus the soul living forever.   Take a guess which one is more important.  And the treasure is in Heaven.  God tells us to lay up treasure there, not here. In Matthew 10: 28 Jesus tells us don't fear our enemies who can kill us physically, but fear God who has the power to not only destroy our bodies, but to destroy our souls in hell.
      
      Now, I know God is our healer too!  But the point I've been trying to make to James is that he is sooooo interested in seeing what he calls "the "Anointing", and having it, that he keeps overlooking the truly Anointed One----Jesus.   Jesus takes second place to NO ONE.  He is the One who has the power.  I think it's no wonder that most preachers and even just plain Christians don't have the power to heal the sick and raise the dead!   Because we're so fallible, so easily swayed by pride, that we wouldn't be faithful with that power if we had it.   It's kinda a blessing in disguise, really, because with much power comes much responsibility.  And we know that even during Biblical times, Jesus was the only One with the power to overcome temptation enough to not sin, and to go through death without sucuumbing to the temptation to give up at any point.  Sure, the Apostles were given the power to raise the dead and perform other miracles.....for a time!  And they died as martyrs, yes, and I believe remained "saved".  But they had just witnessed Jesus, God in the flesh, and they gained strength from that.  But they were humble enough to attribute all that power to Jesus, for His glory.  Who today would be that faithful?  Few, I bet, if any.  Yet some people still keep trying to "force" that attribute into their own hands.

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         Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         i don't get around the world much  (at all) 
         
            Mayby that is why I haven"t ever seea a spiritually and physically weak person get over it by themselves without seeing the same light that you and I speak of,    They just describe it different.
         
            At least,   that has been my experience.

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            Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I'm not sure what you mean...?
            
            I don't get around the world much either.  haha.  I don't get out of the County much, much less other Nations!
            
            But I have seen souls saved by the power of God.  I've seen people go to the altar and pray and then stand up as a changed person, a person whose soul was now in the hands of God instead of the devil's.  That's the most awesome miracle I can think of, aside from Jesus's birth and sacrifice.....
            
            And I've seen preacher after preacher at different churches.  Some of them seem powerless until they start preaching the Word!  And so it should be!  For without it, they are simply humans. 
            I've seen others who seem to be "anointed" and powerful, very charismatic, but when they start preaching they point to themselves and end up going off-Scripture or, as I said, trying to force the power for their own glory, as though His power were something to be "channeled" at their command.
            
            If God wants to do a work, He will do it!  Nobody's gonna command Him to do anything!

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8. 58

   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   Did you add a few comments while I was replying or did I not read all fo the origional one...
     Sorry either way.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I added a few, trying to clarify.
      Sorry if I confused anything.  I just get really hyped up in discussing the "Anointing".
      
      I know a man who was truly Anointed.  And he was a simple fellow.  I don't mean simple-minded like people define it, I mean a man who saw the word of God in the simplicity that it is, and a man without any formal theological training.  He preached the Gospel and people got saved under his teaching.  When he preached, the power of God was strong in him.  He didn't even have to lay hands on anybody;  the strength of the message drew them, the Holy Spirit drew them.  That man was my father.  And the Anointing of that type is a rare thing these days.  I may not have traveled much, but I've visited lots of churches and heard of lots and seen lots of preaching in different media, and I can recognize the Anointing when I see it manifested.

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9. 63

   SandyMcCollumposted 13 years ago

   I was taught that the "old" rules and ways were basically outdated and needed to be modified or thrown out because of our imperfect ability to interpret things to suit us - there were over 600 of those old laws for people to remember. God wants us to have the history and the salvation lesson, so we have old and new testaments. The new testament focuses on what God knows is our path and to tell us to begin preparing now. Old focuses on the past, and New focuses on the future.

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      Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      And you think those old laws were fair and just?
      
      Stoning rape victims to death?
      
      Killing anyone who tries to lead you away from god?
      
      You think that 2000 years ago it was ok to do those things?

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10. 63

    SandyMcCollumposted 13 years ago

    I have seen the work of God in healing, too. Someone very close to me was given months to live, and with only prayer and pain medications, she was healed completely. Her cancer went away, and they scrambled to retake tests and finally concluded that it was either a mass of test failures and compromised images or "unexplained healing." A lot of doctors are people of science and logic, but some believe and have seen miracles.

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       Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I believe in miracles too.  I hope I didn't give the opposite impression!  I was just discussing the difference between real preaching of the Gospel versus the "new-age" type of teaching which focuses on the man in the pulpit instead of God, and the physical state instead of the Spiritual.
       My sister was healed of glaucoma while praying for someone else! And I believe in the "laying-on" of hands.  And I believe in the power of doctors' knowledge and medicines to heal!  Believe me, if it weren't for doctors and medicine I'd be in horrible pain right now.

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          Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I too believe in miraculous healings and will happily accept people's testimonies. However when it comes to the needs of my wife for healing we both find our faith in that regard has eroded away to nothing after so many years of disappointment.

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          Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Doctors and medicine? I thought you believed in miracles and a loving god? Obviously you dont have enough faith in him otherwise you wouldnt need the doctors and medicine.
          
          As for your friend with glaucoma, thats the funny thing about people, they heal. So do cats, dogs and fish.

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    2. 59

       Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       "I have seen the work of God in healing,"
       
       So you believe god intervenes in this world? Why does he let millions of children starve every year then? Doesn't he love them? Or is that also the work of god?

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          SandyMcCollumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I have no answer to that, and haven't claimed to. We can't possibly know why God does or does not do something for us. I do believe God intervenes at times, when other times He doesn't, and it seems useless to try and figure it out. I don't believe God intervenes in everyone's life, I know we have things to learn here and intervening may not help toward that end. But I have seen Him heal in miraculous ways. Cancer doesn't just go away, but it did that time, and her body was riddled with it.
          
          I have no idea why he lets children starve in some countries, but I do believe that we have something to do with how/if he helps us. I just keep praying for those children and all of us.

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             Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             "Cancer doesn't just go away" Hmm, Ive heard from a lot of people who claim that it does. You're one of them.
             So you believe an all loving god lets children suffer and starve to death. That must be a little bit of a cognitive dissonance huh?
             "I pray for them"
             Why? It doesnt seem to be working does it? Doesnt he listen? Doesnt he care? I'll tell you what does work though, actions of people.
             Have you ever given an thought to what the world would be like if there was no god? Take a look at this satirical video that gets the point across fairly well;
             http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCuc34hvD4

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                SandyMcCollumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I didn't come here to be bullied by you, I know that! I am entitled to my own thoughts and if I choose to believe in God, it's not for someone else to decide if I'm wrong. You're entitled to your opinion too, but you seem to be here just to bash everyone else. No statement, just a bashing from you. I'm glad you know so many people who's cancer just went away. Good for them. Too bad they have a friend who offers no support to them, tho.

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                   Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   Im sorry that you feel that me questionning your beliefs is paramount to bullying. Im simply trying to get you to be honest with yourself and try to explain your beliefs.
                   I get the impression you are feeling defensive only because you cant explain them?
                   Is that why you feel like you are being bullied? Im just asking questions. Its not my fault you cant explain your beliefs.
                   And what do you mean by me offering no support? Thats a bit of an ignorant assertion dont you think? Who's picking on who?
                   I've said nothing about your character, not a single thing.

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             Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Considering if a god intervenes at times and at other times does not intervene, and the logic and rationale of those interventions or lack thereof is unfathomable and completely a waste of time trying to figure out.
             
             I would tend to agree.
             
             However, in making an attempt to figure out, we run across the logic that such an unfathomable dilemma is exactly the same as nature taking its own course without any logic and rationale to fuel it and what only appears to guide it are the laws of physics and nature. In other words, the dilemma can easily be explained by the assumption that gods do not intervene at all, hence most likely don't even need to exist.
             
              
             
             That does appear to be miraculous. Although, it doesn't show in the least that a god intervened. It only shows a cancer went away in a patient in which this is unlikely. And, we can find many other patients in which their ailments went away, and they also are not evidence of a gods intervention.
             
             
             
             Notice that by praying, the number of children starving to death each day grows. And, yet your god does not intervene. You claim he intervened in getting rid of someones cancer, yes? Yet, he does not intervene with starving children.
             
             Again, notice that we can see that a gods intervention is not an answer or an explanation to that problem, and that the answer to all of our problems is quite simple to understand, that they are mankind's problems and gods simply don't intervene at all, one way or another.

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