Does anyone see the hand of god in Cyclone Nargis?

Was it a wicked act by god, or a callous omission to act defensively? Or perhaps he was powerless to prevent it? Or is it another example of his 'mysterious ways that passeth all understanding'?

The earthquake that devastated Lisbon in 1755 shattered the faith of Leibniz, one of the world's great mathematicians and philosophers. Thereafter, he denied the existence of god.

In the wake of this latest disaster, does anyone feel inclined to follow Leibniz into rationality, or alternatively to defend the almighty's act or omission?



One of the many ways to give practical help in this unfolding disaster is here:

http://www.actionaid.org.uk/CycloneAppeal

Paraglider wrote:

Does anyone see the hand of god in Cyclone Nargis?

Was it a wicked act by god, or a callous omission to act defensively? Or perhaps he was powerless to prevent it? Or is it another example of his 'mysterious ways that passeth all understanding'?

The earthquake that devastated Lisbon in 1755 shattered the faith of Leibniz, one of the world's great mathematicians and philosophers. Thereafter, he denied the existence of god.

In the wake of this latest disaster, does anyone feel inclined to follow Leibniz into rationality, or alternatively to defend the almighty's act or omission?



One of the many ways to give practical help in this unfolding disaster is here:

http://www.actionaid.org.uk/CycloneAppeal

I see the hand of magical thinking in your interpretation of Cyclone Nargis.

Aye, that I see clearly.

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

I see the hand of magical thinking in your interpretation of Cyclone Nargis.

Aye, that I see clearly.

I hesitated to post this thread, lest it be seen as trivialising this latest catastrophe, which is far from my intention. But how can we continue to woffle about seeing Jesus in a dream when faced with the stark fact that many thousands of innocents will never dream again?

That link is out of action.

Odd - it wasn't when I posted it this morning.

Here's a working link:

http://www.actionaid.org.uk/101271/burm … clone.html

I see what happened - I linked to it when it was the lead story. I should have linked to the permalink. I think this one will keep working.

Paraglider wrote:

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

I see the hand of magical thinking in your interpretation of Cyclone Nargis.

Aye, that I see clearly.

I hesitated to post this thread, lest it be seen as trivialising this latest catastrophe, which is far from my intention. But how can we continue to woffle about seeing Jesus in a dream when faced with the stark fact that many thousands of innocents will never dream again?

Bear with me as I try to put my beliefs in a concise sentence or two on this point. (probably more!)

It is never a trivial matter when humanity as a race looses the physical connection with other individuals of humanity. I feel we are to morn the lose and in due time wake up to greater understanding why these things happen.

It is my belief that at the highest level  of consciousness (and we have several levels below that as well) we are all connected and all knowing, One with the Universe and its cause, effect, record and memory of humanity.

It's like if you look at your self; there are many more things going on that you are not consciously aware of, when it comes to understanding all the points of the why and how, of things that happen. Plus the added that we are connected to everyone and everything else...the accumulated acts, right and wrong, of all people, make it impossible to know everything. We just need to do more and the best we can.

IMHO. I feel we must look deeper and seek that greater understanding; we are ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that happens; we have the free will to take command and change what needs to be changed, act where action is needed.

There is no God who's fault it is, (though I do believe in a God Energy that is All) it is our responsibility to find the answers and take the actions to make it a better and safer world.

Some choose to pray and that's what they do. Others choose to take  physical actions; and some do both. And then others like myself do all said and the above (that I have written about, as well).

There are no catastrophes in Heaven, but this ain't that. I live in an earthquake zone, and so usually have lived on a rock in a small house. Means - don't live in a catastrophe prone area and then blame it on God when the inevitable happens. God's not gonna be my baby sitter in such a situation.

I think it is important to remember that people die.

They just do.

Everyone dies, sooner or later.

God didn't promise anyone a long life.

We get worked up over thousands of people dying in the same way on the same day, but actually if you added up all the people who died of smoking-related illnesses, or cancer, on any given day, it would be a similar number.

It's just less dramatic, and it happens every day, so we don't give it any attention.

People dying, people experiencing physical or emotional pain, and other things we humans consider "unjust" are part of life.

It makes no sense to select one particular example of injustice or mass death and have it change your mind about God. The world didn't change in that moment - it has always been this way. If you believed in God yesterday, you should still believe in God today, because this is nothing different from anything that has happened before.

Jenny

knolyourself wrote:

There are no catastrophes in Heaven, but this ain't that. I live in an earthquake zone, and so usually have lived on a rock in a small house. Means - don't live in a catastrophe prone area and then blame it on God when the inevitable happens. God's not gonna be my baby sitter in such a situation.

But those who can't afford a small house on a rock - those who have no choice but to live in a catastrophe-prone area - those who didn't survive long enough to blame it on God - those who just died - what of them, my friend, what of them?

Inspirepub wrote:

It makes no sense to select one particular example of injustice or mass death and have it change your mind about God. The world didn't change in that moment - it has always been this way. If you believed in God yesterday, you should still believe in God today, because this is nothing different from anything that has happened before.

By which argument the world never changes: the holocaust - more of the same, 9/11 - more of the same, the crucifixion - more of the same, the resurrection - need I go on? If god is 'god the totally uninvolved', which is what you seem to be saying, then maybe we need to grow up and let him go, like Santa Claus.

Paraglider wrote:

By which argument the world never changes: the holocaust - more of the same, 9/11 - more of the same, the crucifixion - more of the same, the resurrection - need I go on? If god is 'god the totally uninvolved', which is what you seem to be saying, then maybe we need to grow up and let him go, like Santa Claus.   

The guy in white clothes sitting on the cloud? For sure. There is something else, though, that seems to connect all of us and everything around us...

It's a horrible thing that happened in Myanmar, I am sad, Tokyo just got rocked by an 8.3 quake today, there is a pot hole a mile long sinking in Texas, kids setting off bombs in schools, a volcano in Chili erupting, as well as one in Hawaii, kids shooting kids for no reason, gangs on gangs, people getting beatin for no reason, children, parents etc. starving, 100 plus Earthquakes last week maybe the week before in Reno, 3 in California the next week, a tornado in Arkansas that flattened a whole town and killed 7, let's not get into Katrina and stuff. 

Where is God you ask?  I could say, God is right in front of your face saying listen, these things are not because of God, it's because of us.  The planet can't support too many people.  Eventually there is chaos, can't say life didn't come with a warning. 

Lemme break it down,

excessive living, building in places that shouldn't have been lived on, but where else can so many people go?  Where ever they can, right? 

Too much is too much, and it's a natural event, why blame God for the things we create?  God gave us everything, and we destroy it.  Earth is doing her part, she doesn't judge, neither does God, but the way I see it God, gave a pretty good warning, but....what can anyone say other than it is sad, and right now America is trying to give the victims in Myanmar aid, but their own government is refusing it.

Umm, Sandy, you are going into pretty dangerous territory here I think. Too many of us? What do you suggest? Prohibit people from making kids? Kill excessive people? I don't really see any viable solution if all those things are because of too many people on Earth...

Misha wrote:

Umm, Sandy, you are going into pretty dangerous territory here I think. Too much of us? What do you suggest? Prohibit people from making kids? Killing excessive people? I don't really see any viable solution if all those thing are because of too many people on Earth...

no, I am not saying genicide, I am saying it's only natural that disasters happen and people, innocent ones die.  I am saying that it just happens. 

If you can think of it like molecules, what happens when they colide? They explode.  The same things happen with people.  Nature takes it course, but I think we can fix it, but no one wants to.  It seems easier to let it happen and then blame and get angry instead of trying to do anything about it, but I didn't write the story about life. 

I am not a cold person, and I do my share of whatever it is I can do, but I more often then not, the ones who want to help or tell it like it is are the cold distant destroyers who regarded as hateful avengers, when it's not like that. 

I love children and I think everyone should have them, but it's not unreasonable to say, that there is just not enough life support in the Earth to support us all.  I could die tomorow, my child could too, I live with that in the back of my head you know. 

What else, we have bad vaccines, that are making people sick, or leaving us open to be destroyed by a flu, billions of people are being displaced everyday, people are fighting just to fight because there are too many opinions, too many people are starving because some are just to, well I will just be frank,  if you are obese, the obviously someone is starving.

Everything in life has an effect on someone else, we know this but ignore the obvious because we are too built up on believing we are indestructable, but we aren't, we are just as vulnerable as the extint dodo bird, or the soon to be extint Polar Bear. 

We have the means to make it work, but it is impossible to get everyone on the same page.

I think Sandy is talking about the theory of Gaia, though I don't know if she knows it.

The theory goes that planet Earth is an organism, just as our bodies are organisms.  Our body reacts to threats in various ways, by sending out antibodies to deal with infections etc.  Similarly, the Earth reacts to threats in various ways.  It doesn't matter whether it's a plague of ants, a plague of locusts or a plague of humans, Nature eventually redresses the balance.

We humans like to think we're much too important to be lumped in with locusts or ants, but there's a certain elegance to the theory!

I didn't know that but I am going to look into it, thanks.

Just wanted to make sure we are not calling for genocide here

Other than that it all conforms with Mark's spec of dust... It's sad when people die though... And does not get any more bearable when they die en masse... but Jenny is right - look here http://www.myconfinedspace.com/?attachment_id=30948

I completely agree with Jenny.

While we should feel absolute compassion for the people struggling with this disaster and help in anyway that we can, the fact is that death is a part of life. We are born to die.

Everything is impermanent and it has nothing to do with God. It's the nature of the universe.

That cyclone might be a result of destroying our environment like global warming.

I think we often exaggerate our importance to the well being of the planet. When we talk about destroying the environment, we really mean making it less comfortable for ourselves. The planet doesn't care, because it's a lump of stone. Of course, it's also host to a complex ecosystem which we can certainly change, but the ecosystem itself is not alive. The ecosystem is a macro description, by humans, of a highly complex interplay of living organisms. The Gaia concept imbues the system itself (not its separate members) with life and even consciousness. It's another nice 'conceit' but one that doesn't stand critical analysis.

Our actions can and do change the balance of the ecosystem, but not half as much as a large meteor would, or (more probable) the eruption of Yellowstone Park's super volcano. Now that will change the ecosystem some day and maybe destroy us all. The cockroaches will probably be fine though.