SparklingJewel wrote:

Like I said "some" references to death are metaphorical.

I am "making" you listen to me?

I described my version of reincarnation?

You believe you are no better than an animal? (That's really sad   )

Well, my fiction is better than your fiction!

LOL - My point exactly. You, like the christians, appear to know which references to death are supposed to be taken literally and which aren't. Convenient.

Yes, you are preaching.

You have described your version of reincarnation in the form of several cryptic references:

"The transfiguration, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension are the steps to the ultimate Christ manifestation. Jesus was and did that. It was/is a gradual process. The ultimate manifestation of the "Kingdom" comes at the ascension...when a soul has no need to re-embody again (has attained Oneness with God/Source)."

"On a spiritual/mystical path, there are two kinds of death and two kinds of life...human and divine."

"Jesus did reincarnate many times to attain the level of soul awareness of Oneness with God. As do all people. As far as I believe."

Which I personally find to be confusing. Especially when, as far as I can tell, all the christians take a different view of this and the book you are quoting from doesn't easily back this up.

It seems to me that you are approaching the bible in exactly the same way many christians do. i.e "This is what I believe, and I am going to interpret the bible in a way that it suits my pre-existing beliefs."

What is wrong with being an animal? Lost me here I'm afraid. Humans are "better" than animals? In my world view, the whole thing works together. No particular animal or plant or tree or person is any more or less "good" than any other.

Maybe your fiction is "better" than mine. Personally, I like the American Indian or Greek mythological version. They are much more fun

Inspirepub wrote:

Pro Mentors wrote:

The "word" is designed to be believed simply on faith, which is the whole foundation of our relationship with God. Christ explained frequently that the key to Heaven and a true relationship with God is based more on our ability to merely believe through "faith alone", than our need or desire for proof through "works" or physical evidence. People who actually watched Him perform miracles were very fortunate and blessed to have witnessed such events. For the rest of us, we MUST rely on faith.

Rev.Ted

This is a fascinating definition of the word "works", of which I was previously unaware. I always thought that "works" referred to one's actions in the world.

Pray tell, how do you apply this particular definition of "works" to the original quote "Faith without works is dead"?

Jenny

*bump*

Still no answer on this one ....

Jenny

Inspirepub wrote:

Inspirepub wrote:

Pro Mentors wrote:

The "word" is designed to be believed simply on faith, which is the whole foundation of our relationship with God. Christ explained frequently that the key to Heaven and a true relationship with God is based more on our ability to merely believe through "faith alone", than our need or desire for proof through "works" or physical evidence. People who actually watched Him perform miracles were very fortunate and blessed to have witnessed such events. For the rest of us, we MUST rely on faith.

Rev.Ted

This is a fascinating definition of the word "works", of which I was previously unaware. I always thought that "works" referred to one's actions in the world.

Pray tell, how do you apply this particular definition of "works" to the original quote "Faith without works is dead"?

Jenny

*bump*

Still no answer on this one ....

Jenny

or, You will be judged according to your works.  Or man can not live on food alone.  So a man can not live on faith alone either.  Or, magical works, healing works, uplifting works, or victors works... 

If one can speak in tounges, let them speak.  If one can prophecy, let him prophecy, if one can heal, let him heal, if one can sing, let them sing....

Andrew0208 wrote:

Mark Knowles wrote:

SparklingJewel wrote:

No. Jesus did reincarnate many times to attain the level of soul awareness of Oneness with God. As do all people. As far as I believe.

Yes, I believe in reincarnation...but not like some interpretations I have read.

Time and space are an illusion we create for ourselves. Jesus' soul attained to a state of consciousness that transcended space and time as humans know it. He had come to realize that there is no separation from the Source, except what we make of it. He did not have to go off somewhere physically to be One with God. He came to realize it within his own consciousness.
Many of the times Jesus and others in the bible and other religious texts spoke about death, it was metaphorical, meaning death of the state of human consciousness that is blocked to realizing/accepting Oneness with God.
The physical body wears out (old age) when there is not enough Energy coming into the spiritual, mental, emotional and physical bodies of an individual in embodiment (alive as most people know it). Or there are illnesses and accidents of karma, or interference of the fallen ones with lives of people that cause death.
And death does make a difference. We are intended to be temples of God Energy, and live long to fulfill our divine plans and bring in more Light to add to the planetary consciousness.

I see how there is no contradiction in verses. I am sorry that I can't explain it enough to satisfy your ego mind. Life is full of mystery...and those mysteries can be experienced and understood by those that seek, believe and have faith.

I Understand that you have "interpreted" the meaning of the word death to make sure your ego sees no contradiction and thus protects itself.

But this does raise some more enormous contradictions.

If death doesn't mean death in the bible, when Jesus bought Lazarus back from the dead, he actually enlightened him. Not an actual miracle. So those referencee to Lazarus' wife beating her breasts and wailing (If I am remembering correctly) are just what? Lies.

A mistake? Oh, I know, a mis-interpretation bought about by being dead.

I have to say, this is a pretty mixed up version of several other religions, that doesn't really make any sense. Not just to my ego. My ego understand perfectly well what your ego is attempting to make me listen to. I hear you just fine. I just do not agree. Based on my years of experience, study and quest for truth and knowledge.

I seek. I just do not believe or have faith. Especially in this sort of stuf.

We die because that's the way it is. Everything dies. If we didn't die, the world would be a crowded place.

Not because there is:

"not enough Energy coming into the spiritual, mental, emotional and physical bodies of an individual in embodiment"

Re-incarnation as you are describing it makes about as much sense as the world being created in 6 days. We are not intended to be "Temples of God Energy." We are animals. Just like all the other animals. Nothing special. No more important than a grain of sand on the beach.

It's most odd that one who constantly talks of wrong-self and ego needs to create this fiction.

Mark, it's interesting going through all your logical analysis of the scriptures(Bible). I can simply understand your vast knowledge on many things. I can also understand you do not believe the bible nor have faith in Jesus Christ yet but your own religion. The Bible (God's Word) is the power of God unto salvation to them that believes! Do you know why I so much love you? I can see you being used mightly for the Gospel even to the working of miracles, Something lovely beyond your understanding is about to happen by the Power of the Holy Ghost to the glory of God. The Word of God is beyond just a great history book and religion. Anything is possible right now. This is for a reason, Glory to God!

Just lol.

Pro Mentors wrote:

Hello everyone,

Just let me jump right into the middle of all this-LOL.

I always find it interesting to observe philosophical-religious debate, because this tends to be where we as mere humans always seem to start having problems... I finally came to a better understanding of spiritual matters myself, once I stopped trying to "pick it all apart". That is when the events in my own life really began to significantly change for the better.

This debate has gone on for thousands of years now and has resulted more in the disintegration of faith and the separation of our people into many different religions and cultures, all with varying views on which they stand firm. This indeed is truly the goal of our adversary to create this confusion in differing opinions and a resulting separation from God.

The difficulty is in that we try to understand concepts, which are so far beyond our mortal and mental capacity, and comprehend things that may not yet be meant for our complete understanding. When we try to pick things apart, analyze them, and as a result begin to doubt... This is where we get ourselves into trouble.

First, to dissect "the word" based on the English translation is alone difficult enough with so many printed variations available today. To even begin scratching the surface of the text in the Bible, we must go back through the original Latin, Greek, and then Hebrew translations to even see how the context of what is written there has evolved over the millennia. The original Hebrew gives us a more detailed understanding for the reasons: that first, it was this language that most of "the word" was originally written; and more importantly, that the Hebrew language has several "depths" or layers of meaning and definition for each character and word in that language; beginning with the literal translation on the surface, to an understanding in a more "Neshemah" (the “breath of God”) or spiritual level of divine understanding. Debating these matters in this language "English", looses quite a bit obviously in that translation.

The "word" is designed to be believed simply on faith, which is the whole foundation of our relationship with God. Christ explained frequently that the key to Heaven and a true relationship with God is based more on our ability to merely believe through "faith alone", than our need or desire for proof through "works" or physical evidence. People who actually watched Him perform miracles were very fortunate and blessed to have witnessed such events. For the rest of us, we MUST rely on faith.

“But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him out.”
(Hebrews 11:6)

This is what gave our adversary (Lucifer/Satan) the opportunity to have us separated from God originally, by creating original doubt and a desire to understand better what we cannot yet understand. This action planted the seed for the "wants and needs" of intellectual curiosity, and of course the process associated with original sin (satisfying the wants of "the self"), which we then begin to place ahead of our relationship with God our Father.

“But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”

(Genesis 2:17; 3:4-6)

And I think we all know the rest of this story….

The bottom line is... If you seek Him out through His word, then these truths are eventually revealed to you... If not, then you may NEVER gain this understanding.

“I said, Days should speak, and the multitude of years should teach wisdom. But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.”
(Job 32:7-9)

I hope this helps anyone that is out there in accepting this understanding, for a small fraction of things that are otherwise so infinite in their actual meaning and application both in the physical and spiritual worlds, that it makes it difficult for us to completely grasp.

Let's bring it back to the basics!
Faith and belief are the first keys, and love (compassion for our fellow people) is the most important concept and practice therein.

Some things are just not completely meant for our understanding... yet for now.


Rev.Ted

People used to sell miracle salve with the same logic:

"We don't quite know how it works so we won't take questions. but BOY does it work!  So get some now!"

Kinda easy to take the position of not being able to comprehensively answer an inquiry about what you believe, when someone asks, by using the cop out of this "great and mysterious thing we cannot fully understand".  So, if you do not know an answer to a question and you have tried your best to explain it, then the excuse becomes one of "this great mystery which we should not doubt and can never fully understand".  Also, when someone doubts the "mystery" they are told they lack humility by the same reasoning I just showed in the last sentence.

The Catholic Church perpetuated the rationally offensive dogma (which it still does but with far less success) of transubstantiation in this way during the dark ages.  People would object "Well it's just a piece of bread isn't it?".  The priest would then say "Oh well god's mysteries are great and we only partially understand why it truly is god himself so do not stop believing in it but I will try to answer your questions as best I can".  It's mumbo jumbo pure and simple, IT IS A PIECE OF BREAD and people are being hoodwinked into believing it is more than that and told they cannot dare question the mind of god and being thrown some verse from romans to quelch the supposed "arrogant stupidity" of the people who dare to say it's nonsense.  This is a good example of fiat, FIAT.  Fiat relies on social darwinism (which is very bad) in order to have any effect that forces people to keep believing.  Fiat is simply, what I believe is because I say it is.  The Catholic Church used that and so do you, (when you appeal to some 'higher understanding' that we 'can't possibly hope to fully understand'), in order to defend your own illogical beliefs AND in order for you to defend your right to accuse those who call the stuff in question nonsense of making the wrong 'choice'.

You are telling people they are making the wrong choice yet you yourself cannot see how your choice is not informed at all.

Amazing



You can't understand it because you shouldn't and that is the point.  That is why your beliefs are hostile to free inquiry and do not stand up to scrutiny by those who won't subscribe to your false humility.

The phrase "I don't <<really>> know and neither should you" sums things up well.  Out of sight, out of mind.

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

false humility.

That's the stuff. And people wonder about getting a hostile reaction.

I love you all. I won't do s**t for you and have never met you but I love you very much. LOL

Although, I have been working on a similar sign off, and can't decide between "Saint Mark," or "Reverend Mark,"  as my signature.


Glory to the Atheists

Saint Mark AMPA, CMT, LSD

Or:

Glory be to the right thinkers

Reverend Mark

What do you think? Too religious?

Mark Knowles wrote:

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

false humility.

That's the stuff. And people wonder about getting a hostile reaction.

I love you all. I won't do s**t for you and have never met you but I love you very much. LOL

Although, I have been working on a similar sign off, and can't decide between "Saint Mark," or "Reverend Mark,"  as my signature.


Glory to the Atheists

Saint Mark AMPA, CMT, LSD

Or:

Glory be to the right thinkers

Reverend Mark

What do you think? Too religious?

If your going for the touche look then Reverend Mark would work well.  I like Saint Mark AMPA. CMT. LSD better tho

Also, Glory be to the freethinkers would be my recommendation as far as phrase, because the implication in the language would be one of "free" vs "not free" rather than "right" vs "wrong", and freedom is the very thing the "religions" me and you disgust take away from every man woman and child that subscribe to it.  Of course we both know that true freedom in any religion is only gained from doing what "you ought" and that all that blathering rhetoric about conscience is only a diversion, because of the 'only true ought' that informs the conscience in the first place.  Using the phrase "Glory be to the right thinkers" is good but I think replacing the words right thinkers with the word "freethinkers" would give maximum effect.



That is my opinion.

So be it.

Glory be to the freethinkers

Saint Mark AMPA, CMT, LSD

And thus, a legend was born. (I have to thank Peter Lopez for the title though)

Inspirepub wrote:

Inspirepub wrote:

Pro Mentors wrote:

The "word" is designed to be believed simply on faith, which is the whole foundation of our relationship with God. Christ explained frequently that the key to Heaven and a true relationship with God is based more on our ability to merely believe through "faith alone", than our need or desire for proof through "works" or physical evidence. People who actually watched Him perform miracles were very fortunate and blessed to have witnessed such events. For the rest of us, we MUST rely on faith.

Rev.Ted

This is a fascinating definition of the word "works", of which I was previously unaware. I always thought that "works" referred to one's actions in the world.

Pray tell, how do you apply this particular definition of "works" to the original quote "Faith without works is dead"?

Jenny

*bump*

Still no answer on this one ....

Jenny

* bump *

Good luck.

Mark Knowles wrote:

Saint Mark AMPA, CMT, LSD

LOL

Mark Knowles wrote:

So be it.

Glory be to the freethinkers

Saint Mark AMPA, CMT, LSD

And thus, a legend was born. (I have to thank Peter Lopez for the title though)

The second sentence in that phrase will make a pretty good "inside joke" Mark, I like it.

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

The second sentence in that phrase will make a pretty good "inside joke" Mark, I like it.

LOL - Yes. We can say things like, "You wouldn't understand because you lack faith, if you just open your heart to the truth it would all be clear, "  when it comes up in discussion. And then we can misinterpret it to mean something completely different to suit whatever position we are taking at the time.

Mark Knowles wrote:

Zarm Nefilin wrote:

The second sentence in that phrase will make a pretty good "inside joke" Mark, I like it.

LOL - Yes. We can say things like, "You wouldn't understand because you lack faith, if you just open your heart to the truth it would all be clear, "  when it comes up in discussion. And then we can misinterpret it to mean something completely different to suit whatever position we are taking at the time.

Aw shucks, isn't that what the theoligcal wiggle is?

As always ridicule is the best response to ridiculousness and you know this.

What I like most is that the "blasphemy" of people like you and me in response to the theological wiggle does not have the same resultant "helfire" as the response to the "blasphemy" of established knowledge and being informed due to the facts as we currently understand them, aka science and reason.

No one will be rotting in hell for all eternity in a torture that is unfathomably disproportionate to their crimes because they do not "believe" in something as well established as evolution.

lolcatz!

Ridicule is certainly one of the tools in my box LOL I tend to reserve it for certain types.

You might like this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT-mrvrPJIs


Glory be to the freethinkers

Saint Mark AMPA, CMT, LSD

Mark Knowles wrote:

WeddingConsultant wrote:

Mark, I used wikipedia (your favorite online resource!) to help define it in my mind and to (hopefully) help us be on the same grounds with some sort of definition.

I'll give you a very cut-and-dry statement:
The Bible, just like many books in the past, should not (in most cases) be taken at face value in order for the most to be made of it.  It is full of idioms, dualities, personifications, rhetoric, etc. and the meanings of these literary devices are lost when one takes the Bible literally.

That, I would hope, is understandable to most hubbers here.

What isn't as understandable by most hubbers here is the role the Holy Spirit plays in the revelation of the Bible.  Like Peter Lopez, I cannot sit here and explain it as much as I can simply explain how the Holy Spirit has revealed truths to me that have hit the deepest cords of my heart.  But don't take that literally as I don't actually have cords inside of my heart!

But I have been arguing all along that the bible is not to be taken literally. And you have been arguing that creation happened as stated. Literally.

What has changed your mind?

Mark, I'd like to mention something about the "death" we were discussing earlier.  I was reminded of some applicable scripture this weekend concerning death.  It's found in I Corinthians 15:35-57.  I'll quote vs. 42-44:

"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.  If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."

To me, it seems clear that Paul is delineating between a physical body (and physical death) and a spiritual "body" (and a spiritual death).

Mark Knowles wrote:

Although, I have been working on a similar sign off, and can't decide between "Saint Mark," or "Reverend Mark,"  as my signature.

I vote for Saint Mark.  Of course, I am biased.

Mark Knowles wrote:

Well, it seems as though your definition of love must differ from mine. Speaking personally, I am pretty choosy about whom I love. Because if I love you that means a lot to me. I will die or kill for you. If you ask me, I will give you anything I own. What does it mean to you?

But, back to contradictions.

Here is a good one:

In several gospels, Jesus is quoted as saying that he will come into his kingdom on earth before a short period of time has elapsed. Specifically before people listening to him speak have died:

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." Luke 9:27

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." Mark 9:1

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Matthew 16:28

Clearly, all the people listening are dead and Jesus did not come into his kingdom yet. Seems like a big one to me

WC -

Well, we were actually talking about this contradiction. I don't recall mention of Paul.