What is wrong with believing something by Faith?
Good for you. Probably why I do not see you arguing with us non-believers.
isn't she awesome? i just luv her
So There!!
yeah, so there!
Interesting Question, when considered that way Mark!
Especially when it comes down to whether or not people actually have the ability to have tangible faith in themselves; prior to offering the belief to inherently less tangible assets and liabilities.That pretty much sums up how I feel about it too,
In that sense many bible believing so called christians do the same,
The quoran and bible can be used to justify any prejudicial belief.- yes, that is exactly what put me off ANY religion: if you want to believe, do so, but for god's sake, keep it to yourself...why do they have to impose it on others...or even publicly talk about it? nothing is more uninspiring....
And another one dodging the question.
Here you are proving my point that people who believe in god try and justify it using semantic arguments rather that admit to just having faith.
So - what is wrong with saying you believe by faith alone?OK - No pressure.
But you really missed the point of my question.
It is clear to me that all the believers I meet claim to have some justification other than faith for believing.
It does not matter to me what that justification is. What matters is that is comes after the blind faith.
I am asking why you need to find some other justification, because that implies there is something wrong with believing by faith alone.
What is wrong with believing in faith alone?
Faith for me is a belief in many different aspects. I don't belong to a certain "religion" i.e. Catholic, Lutheran, etc.
If I had blind faith, that might tell me that my husband would find a job without looking because God is taking care of us, or my daughter will automatically make the dean's list by faith alone & not studying, because God is taking care of her, or my son won't break bones again snowboarding because he has faith that God will keep him safe, or that my turnkey will cook to perfection tomorrow because God is taking care of it.
I can't argue or justify my beliefs, because I am human and I question, I question a lot. But I do have faith, I will never pretend that it will get me through the day, again I'm human...I also have hope.
It doesn't answer Mark's question, but close enough for this less than perfect person that I am.Well, there is something to be said for keeping your expectations low to avoid disappointment.
I agree. This is why - after a lot of thought, I am trying to ascertain why people feel the need to justify a faith based belief. Because - and it seems you agree - that is the point at which they are trying to apply it to me. I mean - if they made a rational decision - then I did not.
Maybe I am just not asking it in the right way. I will try again. But thanks.
Hi Mark,
Sometimes my analogies are "out there" but it is the best my chemo brain can pull off, so bear with me ok?
When my job was forcibly taken from me because of my health, I had to come to terms with who I was now that my career was gone.
When I lost numerous body parts I had to reevaluate how I percieved myself physically. My point is that when we take a major hit to an important facet of who we believe we are - we get knocked off balance. While we are coming to terms with it we are more sensitive and quick to defend. And it is intense.
I think both sides have taken some brutal hits on this forum and remain in that coming to terms mode. And they take no time to get ok with themselves before the next war. Just a thought.
I did come to terms with what is left of me physically, but I think I should get a huge discount on my MRIs now as there are so few organs to see! OT I knowLOL well - it sounds as though the organ that does the thinking is still there.
No.
Of course they are valid points, but I think the condescending manner in which you applied them lost you a few points.
Well - you are contradicting yourself by first of all stating that there are no absolutes and then saying that you believe you can show an absolute.
And I know whey you presented them the way you did. Almost had me convinced you had been saved.
There are the things we/mankind know about the world and the universe; and if there is a God I don't think He'd want people to disregard what man has learned by using his logical mind to figure out (science). People who don't understand the science behind what is now known (with regard to something like evolution) just equate it with "yet another kind of faith", rather than seeing what is understood as as real as, say, the fact that I'm wearing brown shoes right now.
Someone in my home can see that I'm wearing brown shoes, and I could take a picture (theoretically - I don't have a good enough web cam) and show everyone here that the shoes are reality, a fact. If people can't see pictures on their PC's for some reason, they aren't going to be able to know for sure that the brown-shoe thing is true. (It's not the fault of the rest of us if someone can't see pictures and can't be sure, and you can't blame someone for not wanting to believe what I say about my shoe color; then again, you can kind of "have an opinion" if they won't consider the fact that they're the ones who can't see the picture but that so many others have seen the brown shoes.) So, that's how scientific reality works.
Then there's what there may be beyond the Universe and/or in some other realm. That's something that, as far as I and many other people are concerned, nobody who has ever walked the Earth has ever known/understood. That's where faith comes in, and people either choose to have faith, choose to be open faith, or not. Yes, this goes against the famous books and the belief in prophets and whoever else said they "knew"; but sometimes it isn't just non-believers who don't buy what other human beings have written in books a millennium or so ago. Sometimes it's also people who, themselves, have a strong faith and their own sense of connection to "whoever may be out there".
I don't think there's anything wrong with anyone having faith - simple faith and belief that there is something greater "out there"; and I don't think that has to conflict with the provable facts mankind now recognizes about the Universe. There's a difference between faith in a higher power and faith in other human beings who wrote books and/or who claim to know better than others what God wants and doesn't want.
I think faith in a higher power, based on nothing but faith, can be a wonderful thing. What I don't think much of is faith in other human beings who have claimed, or who are believed to be, "special" in terms of being privy to what God thinks or wants. Whether or not a lot of people with faith end up being like the disappointed Linus in the pumpkin patch may not even matter, because they won't be aware of it when Halloween night is over. As for atheists, if they turn out to be wrong I can't help but think God would understand that that's what happens when you keep yourself a mystery and leave people to sort this stuff out for themselves. To me, the truest form of faith is the kind people just decide to have, or have found their own way to having. Anything less is just believing what other human beings have told them to believe. (There, I've finally given in to the urge to add my own two cents - or should I say, "two dollars' worth - on the religion forum. )- Denno66posted 14 years ago
0 I am not so sure this is a good analogy.
I would say - based on my own experiences - that - very few people get attacked by sharks while diving and diving is a pleasurable experience that is worth the perceieved risk of a shark attack.
If 9 out of 10 divers were attacked by sharks - you would probably find a lot less divers.
- Denno66posted 14 years ago0
We are making a distinction between religious faith and faith by observable data.
- Denno66posted 14 years ago0
Seems alot easier than having to find absolutes in everything all the time
Hmmm.....sounds like laziness or a lack of will to seek out truth, so understanding(wisdom) can be gained. And, sounds like a lousy way to live life. Sorry, that's my conclusion, from what I've learned about you, as a person and knowing what I know about life.
No offense.None taken. It's not laziness. Just call it a different life path. Humanity is not a Stepford Wives scenario, everyone is unique, therefore they do not follow a set pattern of guidance. Knowledge comes in many forms, not just that of your clean, analytical world. But, march on, my friend, to your lifepath, it seems to work for you
- Denno66posted 14 years ago0
Faith is the belief in something without need for proof ... which makes it the essence of many things. Mark has hit the head on the pin here, and I think believers and non-believers alike can learn from this.
As Mark is seen as a non-believer, then I think I will appeal to the religionists first by saying that - to many of us - science is faith. Allow me to explain ...
A scientists tells us that the Earth is round. Now, not many of us can perform the calculations to confirm this and even further have been off the Earth to look down and see the absolute proof.
Of course, there are pictures from space, but any could argue that these are all fake, designed to make fools of us and to make us believe that the Earth is actually round. As we do not prove it ti ourselves, we accept that the Earth is flat, through faith in our scientists.
The same goes for the Bible... We read the many passages and accept what is written as fact, and yet, none of us ever witnessed any of it. We don't need to - we accept it all by faith.
ANYTHING you do not prove to yourself is accepted by faith, and any time you try to offer facts to prove something (using data you have not personally collected and recorded yourself) you are merely expressing faith in those that created the data for you and expressing your continued faith in their observations.
We as a species NEED faith to move forward as we would stifle in creativity if we had to personally verify every fact we came across. Think I'm wrong? Consider this ...
This time, I will strike at religion first:
For the Bible to be absolutely true, then every event must be audibly and visually recorded, otherwise it's hearsay. Of course, we know that's impossible so religion can only be accepted through faith.
As for science:
We would need to conduct every experiment ourselves that proves everything we know. We would need to live eons to witness events that take forever to conclude. We would need to have recordings of the past to absolutely be certain our theories of what has passed were correct.
The whole concept of anyone using the studies of others to back up your faith is a bunch of bilge, as they merely are producing data collected by others and none of their own. As such, any data could be conjured, misunderstood, or manipulated to fulfill the desired end. And while any of us would like to believe that those who pass the knowledge onto us are above that ... history has shown they are not.
Faith is what a person chooses to believe in, requiring only that it only make sense and fit into their beliefs. As such, religion is not faith ... religion is a byproduct of faith ... as is science.
And, as religion is a unified belief in a certain perceived truth ... men of science are every bit as religious as those men of God.
When will we learn ... what believers call God ... non-believers call nature ... and both sides are in awe of what creation has brought upon us. That's why we study it and try to understand it. We all want to know the burning answer to the question ...
Does our existence hold a purpose?
Ask yourself that question and you will begin to understand your beliefs are not all that different than those around you ... as that is the foundation for all faiths ... and all beliefs.Oh Mark not again, I believe and nothing will ever change that, I do not need proof you see I have God in my heart and you could not imagine the love that I feel just because of that, can't you please give this a rest?
I have been having "god helping me" for a long time. Lots of scrapes with death and danger in my life, near fatal cancer and other life events should have shortened my life but did not.
Life just presents what I need sometimes and when it happens I know I am "in tune" with something in myself or the universe at that time.
I do not then need to leap to a belief in an invisible entity to explain these experiences.- BookFlameposted 14 years ago0
I agree that faith improves health. The more, the better. But faith does not have come from belief in a deity.
I don't agree that people are wired to believe in a greater power. I think people have a curiosity and need to know things that can't be necessarily understood. One name for it is the god gap. God is given credit for creating or causing things that people can't understand because people need to have an answer or an explanation.
Here is a very rough example: Man once thought the moon was a god. When we discovered what the moon actually is, we then said god created it. When we discovered how it actually was created, we said god caused it to be created.
All the little unknown gaps are filled with god, and as science advances, god's involvement is adapted.
I'm a non-believer but I have no issue with the god gap concept. I do have a problem with folks who would still argue that the moon is a god, despite the science.
What is wrong with believing something by faith?
When a person stops asking questions because of their faith, then is something wrong.
When a person ignores reality because it contradicts their faith, something is very wrong.
If somebody finds peace and well being because of a personal belief in god, there is nothing wrong with that at all.
But if you try to turn it into a team sport, you might find that we don't all want to play.Intelligence understands its limitations, there are greater forces at work.
But if there was a limit to intelligence, there would be no more new discoveries.
Hi Ray, happy turkey.
If you make a claim that the mind's capacity is limited, you'll need to define the limit. What is the point a person reaches when they then have to decide what to forget, in order to learn more?
I'll play along with that though. If the concept is that old data is erased to make room for new data, that doesn't constitute a limit. Data is still being added. And the old data is backed up before it is erased. Silly analogy, but I mean to say that people write books to hold knowledge. If I forget older knowledge, I can go back and read it again.I'm not buying the maximum capacity concept.
I won't argue that an individual person may have a limit of understanding, just as an individual person may not run as fast as another.
Not trying to be a PITA about it, but if you are arguing that a person's brain has a Max Fill point, I'll need to see how that is defined and confirmed.
If you can't prove the concept with factual data, you are making an assumption that it is true.
Thus, you are "taking it on faith."
- Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago0
Mark, first, great posting.
In answer to your question: there is nothing 'wrong' with believing by faith alone, however, it really makes no sense to.
Humans cannot live by just breathing or drinking water or sunbathing. We need air, food, water, sleep, etc.
So it is the collective of things that we need to live.
This is faith.
From the textual perspective, if actually read correctly, faith is the "stuff of things hoped for" AND the "proof of things unseen".
Where the failure comes in is in the teaching.
give you an example: Say I am a farmer. I got this nice piece of land, right? That land is soil, made up of powdered leaves, grasses, roots, rocks, air, water and other elements.
I have this need or hope of a field full of flowers.
so, I can see or imagine/visualize that field full, yes?
This is the stuff of my field, my character, personality, words, thoughts and actions. My perspective, opinion, vision.
That's part one of faith.
In following my heart, my vision, etc, I plant a bunch of wild flower flower seeds, sunflower seeds, you name it.
I plant them in the soil in that stuff.
From this point on for three weeks, I can't see anything happening, but below the surface, in that stuff, my seeds are germinating, growing. I can't see it nor do I really understand what is going on. All I can do is hope those seeds spout into flowers.
That's part two of faith.
The last part is the proof, evidence, of what I planted.
Those flower stems pop up out of the ground as proof that I planted them seeds and the stuff did what it did. My proof is the harvest of flowers I now have -a field full of them plus more seeds to plant if I need to.
That is part three of faith.
So, long story short of it, faith is not just believing.
It is a collection of stuff, seed and harvesting.
Just like us. We are the stuff of the universe -energy, thoughts, motion- and the proof of the seed of the universe.Absolutely!
Faith isn't some mystic hum or mantra.
It is a collection of logic, reason, thought, energy, etc etc.
And rightly so, planting in the right field is extremely vital.
Try planting corn in a rice paddy, ain't gonna grow.
My pleasure - but you contradict yourself in your opening and it appears that there is something wrong with believing by faith alone. i.e. it makes no sense to. Which is presumably why so many who do believe in faith alone attempt to justify their belief in some other way.
So your definition of faith includes inventing non existent proof to justify the faith in the unseen thing?
i.e. using semantics to justify your blind faith.
But what if the soil was not receptive or the flowers you grew were only visible to you?
I think we might need to reach an agreed upon definition of the term "proof," because it appears your use of the word is a tad different to the actual meaning.
But - I get your drift. There is more than one type of faith and you are - as seems every one is - attempting to say that there is only one kind of faith.
Faith that god exists is different to faith that my car brakes will work (brakes do fail) or the hope that I will not get eaten by a shark if I go diving (and people do get eaten).
But - I agree with you. It makes no sense to believe in god by faith alone - which is why so many invent other reasons to justify their blind faith in some way.
Which is where the fights start.
Every time some one justifies their belief in god by attempting to argue that they made a rational decision based on evidence and proof - they are telling me I made an irrational decision and I am too stupid to understand what "proof" or "evidence" means.But all you are doing is attempting to justify your blind faith by using semantic arguments which do not apply.
Most people have a reason for believing. This is not the same as evidence, proof or rationality.
And I see you couldn't resist telling me what god thinks.All YOU are doing is attempting to justify your blind faith by using WEAK arguments which do not apply.
Show me the proof evol markDear oh dear oh dear.
I realize it must bother you that I am attempting a reasonable conversation, but please do not keep on following me around and doing this.
It is unpleasant, disrespectful - both to me and the person I am conversing with, and merely gives me one more reason to despise your religion.
Thank you.- Nothing I do can make you do anything. You suffer from ABG(anything but God) syndrome and it's pretty far along. I don't anyone can bring you back to reality. As I recall you follow Christians and mock them constantly. I'm sure they find it unpleasant, disrespectful too, Does it stop you? Don't play "hurt victim" now. Whatever happened to do unto others? Whenever you're ready to learn about evolution, send evolution guy he seems more open-minded. Thank you
So - You are not prepared to honor my genuine request to allow me the courtesy of having a conversation without interruption?
I base my decisions on a wide variety of criteria - one of which is the behavior and demeanor of those who claim to be christian.
You are an excellent argument against believing. Thank you. But - please do not keep on interrupting.
Thank you.You first!
- lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago0
- Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago0
- Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago0
As I said - I think we need an agree upon definition of the word "proof," because you - as do most people who believe in a Creator and know what He thinks are using it in a different way to me.
"I think, therefore there is a God."
- Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago0
I suspect you did not bother reading the answers then.
No one here is prepared to admit to believing something by faith alone.
Which suggest that there is something wrong with it.
They all have "proof" and "evidence" that god exists and do not believe by faith. They have used "logic" and "reasonable deduction" to come to this "logical conclusion."
Therefore they do not have faith, because that "makes no sense."
Do you believe something by faith alone?Good for you. Most sensible. I prefer to make an absolute statement in the negative to provoke a reaction from all those absolute positives who then claim that this is not possible.
So - why do you think all these people who do believe in a god have been trying to convince others that they do not believe by faith?I am sure there are - but there is not one person on this thread who claims to believe by faith alone. God found their car keys or returned their son from Iraq alive or some other such proof was forthcoming.
But one side is making a positive claim.
LOL
But you appear to be giving equal weight to the two statements.
LOL
You define it - I will disprove it.
Rubbish.
It is many atheists saying "your god does not exist."
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