Can You At Least Be Honest

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   Dale Mazurekposted 14 years ago

   Today is a Hub day for me.
   
   What this means is I will be writing a couple hubs, reading other hubs, commenting, flagging and being quite active in the forums today.
   
   However, once again I am getting annoyed at all these new hubs.
   
   Guaranteed commissions
   Make money overnight
   The best payplan on the internet.
   
   For once I would love some of these people to just be honest.
   
   I have one program I have used for over a year and just love it but it still is no where near perfect and when people ask I tell them the issues that are in the program.
   
   Once again I seem to find myself venting at Hubbers expense.  Sorry if I am wasting your time but I just cant stand these people who are blatant liars.
   
   For all you people who are guaranteeing overnight success I suggest you go look at hubs by Nelle Hoxie, darkside, Relache, Ryankett and many others and you will see how you make money.
   
   Lots of hard work and patience.
   
   Once again Hubbers, thanks for listening to my rants.

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      ryankettposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Lol, my name is often mentioned alongside 'money'.... I have at least another 6 months to go before I am worthy of a mention alongside the likes of Nelle and Darkside!
      
      Its all good though, if people want to look at my hubs anyway I agree with the sentiments though, thankfully the type of people who write those hubs are often the types who are talentless enough to be stung by them.

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         Dale Mazurekposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I mention your name dude because you know what it takes to make the money.  You know it takes hard work and patience and doesnt come overnight.
         
         The earnings in this case dont meant tweet, just the fact that you know what it takes to get those earnings.

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            ryankettposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Well I am honoured  
            
            Have you any news on your Ebay suspension by the way? Did you try and appeal or complain?

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               Dale Mazurekposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               We did appeal
               
               We got an email saying something to the fact that Ebay would not be over turning their decision.
               
               They gave no explanation and that was it.  Just like magic our account was gone.
               
               We have considered starting over and applying through another name or something but at the moment we are still just too angry with them and have decided to focus on some other streams of income that does seem to be working quite well.

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                  ryankettposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  And did you lose the balance of your account or did they pay that to you? It is pretty shocking to think that they would keep that money, have you read their TOS to see if they could do that?

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                     Dale Mazurekposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     When they suspended our account we had almost 7 grand owing to us.  They paid us 2200 and the rest dissapeared with the account.
                     
                     Whether they can or cant what could we really do.  We are just little fish in a big pond.
                     
                     I think the hardest part is it happened before the busiest time of the year and we were really sure we were going to break a 10 grand month just with eBay.
                     
                     Oh well back to the drawing board.
                     
                     It does suck but we had to decide do we waste time and dwell on it or do we pull up our socks and move on.
                     
                     I will tell you one thing.  I will never buy another item from eBay as long as I live.

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                        ryankettposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Dude, all I can say is that it sucks! I am sure that there are much smaller businesses with affiliate schemes which a) you can make a success of, and b) will really appreciate and look after their top affiliates.
                        
                        It really is short sighted for Ebay, they ban all of these affiliates and benefit from some short term gain - but carry on the way they are and they will suffer in the long term.
                        
                        I stopped using Ebay when they took away the ability of the seller to give negative feedback, that really sucked. I was a bigger buyer than seller at the time, in fact I was a big time buyer, I just look forward to the day that there is a real ebay alternative.
                        
                        Anyway, nothing else I can say, other than that it really sucks!

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                  Just Some Guyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Just looking at the eBay T&Cs at the moment (https://publisher.ebaypartnernetwork.co … tiser_id=1) and they say
                  
                  "All eBay Programs disallow the placement of Promotional Content or Links on domains you do not own."
                  
                  Could they have interpreted that as being justification to cancel any eBay Partner account used on HubPages?

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                     Dale Mazurekposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Good point but we never used Hubpages for our eBay.  We had our own site on a domain that we own.  We did some creative thinking because that site was getting 2000 uniques a day.
                     
                     After eBay booted us we did some rearranging and are getting almost 3000 uniques a day.  We arent making the same money yet as we were with eBay but between Adsense and CPA we have rebounded quite nicely.

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      adamareangereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Here, here, Dale! I found hubpages a couple weeks ago, and sure making money would be great. But I am trying to focus on writing about that which interests me, even if one of those hubs seems that I'm just selling the topic. I write to write, and to gain experience. Should I make money doing so, great! If not, I've gain something better and that is forming new relationships and sharing a passion with others like me!

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      brawbuyashleyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Deleted
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      relacheposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Aahhh, the joys of flagging and giving thumb's down... the gifts that keep HubPages higher-quality...

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      Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Ah Dale, I used to rant on similar topics. I used to fight for those poor people who were tricked into believing some fucking nonsense. I did this for a while, a long while in fact, until I got tired of being beaten to death by those same people whom I tried to protect...
      
      I don't do this anymore, I let them learn their lessons...

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         Dale Mazurekposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I understand what you are saying Misha but it really urks me that the so called gurus are getting rich off these very people.
         
         I will keep up the battle for now but one thing I will never do is go over to the darkside and I have been invited a few times.

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            livewithrichardposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I'm a bit confused Dale. Why are you promoting those so called gurus on your own blog? http://affiliatenuts.com/affiliate-trai … affiliate/ 
            
            They are peddling information that you say you oppose. Come on, pay $39 per month for a potential $360,000 a year in affiliate marketing.
            
            You and I both know that the only people that make that kind of money are those that are 150% dedicated and can afford the thousands of $$$ it takes for advertising each month.
            
            It takes a special breed of online marketers to pull that off and not something your average Joe just starting out will ever be able to comprehend fully.
            
            I don't mean you any disrespect Dale, but if you're going to take a stand against the "get rich online guys" then why are you promoting them on your personal blog?

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               Dale Mazurekposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Thats a fair question.
               
               I am a member of the so called company because of the tools it offers.
               
               Anyone that is ever interested in signing up gets told what it really takes to earn.
               
               I will never back down from Wealthy Affiliate because it is those very tools inside that has helped me.
               
               I very rarely promote Wealthy Affiliate because I know most people wont use the tools.
               
               To be honest I dont think we get more than one signup a month and we dont push it.
               
               Like I said it is mostly for the tools inside.
               
               Wealthy Affiliate is not a skeleton in my closet.  I do have some of those from my past which I am not proud of and that is why we do things differently now.
               
               I hope this answer was sufficient if not I would be glad to get into more detail as to why we use Wealthy Affiliate

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                  livewithrichardposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  LOL, of course its sufficient.  I hope I didn't come off too accusatory.  It's just that I have the same disliking of the so called guru's because I have learned that almost everything they peddle can be found for free online. 
                  
                  I'm sure your blog is bringing in a different type of traffic than what roams around here on HP and the tools WA offer would appeal to them, though I think you should probably mention what you really think about it on that page.

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      SquigglesMcBeeBeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      dat's ok. even I can spots a scammer, so dey're not fooling anybunny

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   kirstenblogposted 14 years ago

   I find it so much easier to trust a hubber who is honest about earning potential with regards to hubs, articles or blogs. To many 'guru's' out there promising over night wealth has left a bad taste in my mouth! Tell me its not easy and takes time, to enjoy the process and have fun writing first then I will listen to the advice on offer, tell me it will happen over night and I wont bother anymore. It gets so annoying when people claim I can get rich overnight, I might (stress might) if I compromise my values and steal other peoples free info and charge for it, make promises I cannot possibly fulfill but chances are it wouldn't work as I am a crappy lier.

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      Dale Mazurekposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      A couple things.  i wouldnt be able to sleep at night knowing I took peoples money as a result of promoting garbage.  Secondly my wife would kill me if I got into scamming people.
      
      When my partner and I got together in business we both agreed we would be different and we would never take that route.  We have stuck to our guns and financially we do pretty good with the endeavors we work on.

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         kirstenblogposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         It is nice to hear that sticking to good business can work and be profitable. I am still working on building up a good foundation from which to earn and it takes a lot of work and patience and I find it most valuable when someone tells me that they do well and have fun with their endeavors without needing to stoop to lying. It helps keep me patient and motivated to keep trying . I do think that when I start to make a decent amount of money writing it will be so much better for the hard/fun work it took to get there. Better to win out by becoming good at what you do then by cheating.

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   EmpressFelicityposted 14 years ago

   Yes, it winds me up as well.  Particularly when you get people who join Hub Pages and knock together some poorly-written hubs about how you can use Adsense to make loadsamoney for very little work.  Then a couple of weeks later, the same people whinge in the forums that they're not earning money and imply that Hub Pages is conning them.

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      kirstenblogposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      

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      waynetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Ha yes so true!

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      charlemontposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Some even ask Hubpages to send them money asap
      I feel pity for people who start their hubbing experience by copy-pasting "how to become rich with AdSense" articles from EzineArticles and immediately go to forums claiming they've found the easiest way to rip off Google.

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4. 69

   Jeffrey Nealposted 14 years ago

   Dale, I used to sell cars, and I had the same thought about that job.  It was the guys who would say anything or withhold info like factory incentives and rebates if a customer didn't already know about it, that gave the rest of us a bad name. 
   
   Internet marketing seems to be similar in that as long as there are people out there who don't want to do the research and put in the time to get knowledgeable about how things work, and are looking for the quick fix that requires no effort, there will be some unscrupulous "marketer" waiting to take them for a ride.
   
   Some people have no conscience. One of the guys I worked with on  the car lot would scam his own grandmother in order to keep a few extra dollars of a sale.  It's sad, and fortunately there are as many good people out there like you to balance the universe.

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   pgrundyposted 14 years ago

   When I first came here it was fun, and most people of the people I met at Hub Pages didn't expect to make a dime. They just liked to write and were interested in discussing their writing with other people. I signed up for Adsense and Amazon because they were there and it was easy, and then I proceeded to forget about them for about six months.
   
   Over the course of the past year it seems that everyone is about the money now, and I personally think it's unfortunate. There's nothing wrong with making money, but writing is about more than money. I recently wrote a satirical hub in which an internet marketer coaches Abe Lincoln on how to better 'monetize' the Gettysburg address--and three or four people took it at face value. I mean, they honestly thought Abe Lincoln would be a better writer today if he'd had a coach teaching him to monetize the Gettysburg address, and they thanked me for the creative tips on monetizing web writing. They didn't get it. It went right over their heads. I find that terrifying.
   
   I spent eight years in insurance and banking and all that mattered there was money. If someone had come up with a scheme to make money by whacking old ladies in the head with a baseball bat, they'd have been handing out bats at our team meetings and teaching us techniques for bashing heads faster and more productively. That's why I finally left. 
   
   What's happening on the internet now shows why this country is going down the tubes. It's all about the Benjamins, screw everything else. Money is what matters, but money for nothing seems to matter most of all. The net marketing gurus are the latest in an unending stream of snakeoil salesmen and braggarts. A whole bus full of them wouldn't be worth the dynamite it would take to blow them up.
   
   The same thing is happening on the job boards. People who can barely spell or speak English all think they are going to get rich writing for the internet.

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      Dale Mazurekposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      That is a lot to take in but makes so much sense.
      
      I have worked in the oil patch for 20 years.  What this means is I am away from home at least 3 weeks a month.  I spend more time in hotel rooms then my own home.
      
      That is the main reason I work so hard to make a living with the internet.  My wife and I have discussed it and we both agree it is time to come home and stay home.
      
      The oil patch pays pretty good so when I come home I would definatly be taking a loss in my salary so the internet is what is going to supplement this.
      
      We just want to make sure we have enough going for us that if for some reason a stream of income is lost there will be enough in the others to not lose any sleep.
      
      Dale

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   pgrundyposted 14 years ago

   Also (sorry about the hub in forums) it's getting harder to find hubs I care to read because so many of them are hawking something or trying to get you to sign up for some affiliate scheme. It really shows a lack of respect for the community and for the readers here--like, make me money or shove off.
   
   Something has been lost in all this.

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      Ms Chievousposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      From what I have seen so far is the people that are ONLY here to make a buck don't stay around long.  Once they figure out it takes some time AND they have to actually work at it  then they move on.

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      AEvansposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with you PGrundy I have found that there are many how to make money hubs and I just pass them by. I enjoy reading new original content by a hubber or what to purchase by Nelle and others. Everyone seems to ask about how much money you can make on HP and other sites personally I believe all of us make money but I am not constantly checking my google account to see what kind of megabucks is sitting there, I just enjoy writing about what interests me and check the account every once in awhile. What has happened to the art and passion of writing?

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      earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree Pam, I came here to write helpful articles and stories from my life. I have got a set of commercial hubs, but they all have plenty of good useful content. If some people need to make money on here, they should provide something worthwhile. I purchased a chair the other day because Nellie told me about it so thoroughly on her commercial hub.

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         pgrundyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Hi Earnest. Yes I have some of those hubs myself. I came off sounding like I think selling stuff is evil or something. I don't think that at all. I just get sick of all the hype and BS that comes with the "I'm making money online and you can too!" schtick. Also, I do think way more people are writing product hubs now. It seems like there will be an outer limit to that at some point, but maybe not.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            There are plenty of non-commercial reasons to write online - I do it all the time. But it seems most people are writing online to make money, and this includes hubpages. HP is a commercial venture, and so far have managed to avoid being destroyed by the type of writing that Dale is talking about.
            
            I became disillusioned with how hard it is to make money online and how much garbage there is out there, but then I thought, "Why should online be any different to the real world?"
            
            All the time the major search engine is making millions of dollars profits - the current model is not going to change.
            
            Do not kid yourself that this will happen any time soon. The newspapers are simply not making enough money to survive on google adsense money - and maybe if they withdraw their content?
            
            Who knows. Unfortunately - much of the content on the so-called "news" websites is regurgitated press releases with a heavy spin, so they might have shot themselves in the foot.
            
            Things are changing - I see that, and if they do change to a more content-quality paradigm, I am sure to be a rich man. For now - I have to accept the way things are and work within the limitations of the current model.
            
            Which means buying links, using spun content for articles etc etc and spending a good proportion of my time not researching and writing. Plus writing content that I do not "want" to write, but must write in order to make a living.
            
            Just like a real job.

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               Star Witnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I don't know if you really understand the news biz, Mark.  Newspapers are businesses in their own right employing sometimes hundreds of people to write...and SELL ADS that are apropos of their own interests.  This includes online advertising as well.  Of course this interest is as different to some as the little "The Daily Bee" of Podunkaville, TN is to The New York Times.
               
               Suffice it to say also, I know for a fact that the articles written for news organizations are NOT mostly regurgitated press releases from both a news organization sense and a PR sense.  Community newspapers also will always have a place regionally and locally simply for providing INFORMATION.  And that provision of information is usually done by people who can convey the written information in a quality way.  Also, if anyone is interested in becoming a stringer for the AP or Reuters, it is done all the time...usually by the reputation of the writer or photographer working at a local level (not steady work, however).

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  LOL
                  
                  Sure, what do I know. It is not as though I get paid to write some of this garbage and see it disseminated as "news" all over the media.
                  
                  I do not get paid up to $800 an article to publish the same stuff here and on my own blogs either.
                  
                  And my wife does not work for an advertising agency placing press releases as "news" articles with international media.

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                     Star Witnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     It's an incomplete understanding.  I have been in the position of working for both newspapers and now in the PR arena, and it is a bit more complicated than that.  Sounds as if you "know" from only the sales/PR/Advertising arena.
                     
                     And I can tell you for certain that my press releases are never garbage.  I make certain of that. ...It also really depends on what 'media' you are talking about.  Not all carry the same reputation or value with anybody who still uses critical thinking skills to evaluate their news sources.  As valid on the internet as it is in print and will still be valid 100-200 years from now.
                     
                     But you know, I learned a new word via darkside and Hubpages, "revanchism," lol.  And must remember it in some contexts.

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                        Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I am talking about "respected" international media.
                        
                        None of whom are transitioning well to the internet as far as revenue goes. I use my critical thinking skills to evaluate news sources all the time. Name one that is unbiased and provides genuinely impartial information.

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                           Star Witnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           I'll cut to the chase, because I don't have that much time, so don't have the inclination to do it through Socratic method like I saw a user do successfully concerning religion, .
                           So...
                           I'm not interested in playing professor/student.  Too old and experienced, frankly, for that by now.  So the onus is on you to provide the names of these 'respected' national media formats...if you want...don't really care as the point is moot as far as my thinking and even what I presented earlier.  And anyway, yes, I do understand how and why press releases are placed.  And no, newspapers are not transitioning to the internet well...but that is for a variety of reasons.  It isn't for a simplistic reason.
                           
                           And no, of course no news source is officially unbiased.  It would be simplistic to assume that--but then those with a sophisticated understanding of news sources and the philosophies and history of writing journalism know that.  (ie, define Yellow Journalism, New Journalism, tell me how an editorial board is created...explain Gannet's regard as far as political bias in their many newspapers across the US...who now owns large stock in Gannet and why was it bought, etc., etc.)
                           
                           No time...  Not that interested.  And anyway, my main point here was to tell quality writers that there is ABSOLUTELY still a place for them and always will be even during and past this blip of new technology hurdle.  Of that I'm certain.

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                              Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              LOL
                              
                              I agree - there will always be a place for a small minority of quality writers. But - this discussion is about writing for money online, and the newspapers are currently not a fantastic place to do that for a number of reasons. But thanks for the condescending remarks. I love it when random strangers with no published work stop by to explain how it is from behind a user name. Get a lot of that in the religion forum.

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                                 Star Witnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 My work is internationally published.  You shouldn't assume as much as you assume, Mark, and then there wouldn't be an issue, I don't think.
                                 
                                 A.  There is a reason I'm using this nondeplume - Quality issues w/ our current host.
                                 
                                 B.  I make no distinction between writing online and print.  They will soon be one and the same.  In the future, ie, I see sites such as this one having a much harder time, as it depends on the technology situation at hand.
                                 
                                 C.  If writers like Pam (if you noticed I responded to her mainly...but any quality writer) got a job at a regional or local media entity, her work would be all over the internet, too.  That's how its done...that's how they are transitioning.  Clunky, but what the heck.  I worked for Gannet's top online paper in the US at one time.

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                                    livewithrichardposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    I'm pretty sure Mark was referring to the fact that you have a 6 month old account here with zero published hubs, so how can we take any advice from you on writing online content?
                                    
                                    Also, if you can't make the distinction between writing online content and for print then you will never succeed as an online provider of content. Writing online content is a whole different beast.  Go read Pam's latest hub on Lincoln being coached, she gets it.
                                    
                                    When people write here on HP their stuff isn't placed on HP's front page.  No No No, they have to write in a manner that allows their content to be indexed in the SERPs.  If you're going to write fiction here on HP, that's great but then you better count of finding a lot of fans/followers because they will be the only ones reading your stuff, unless it's written in a way that people outside of HP can find it.
                                    
                                    People who know how to write online content will easily make the transitions to keep up with changes in technology, we did when the web evolved to 2.0  The people that do not know how to write online content better learn or they'll be left behind.

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                                       Star Witnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Oh, good grief.  Doesn't anyone read for CONTEXT anymore?  Or read fully and around the source?  Do they just read what they want into things?  lololololo.  This is exactly the point--part and parcel to the point.  I'm finding this funny.
                                       
                                       Simple:  There are those who will always, always be valued for the content of their writing, sans anything.  This new technology so many are taking advantage of is nothing but a blip.  There are some who should be getting paid FOR their writing.  I'm suggesting she is one of those.  And like it or not, that is still in writing for a quality paper or magazine...and quality will always come out (eventually) on top...in a larger sense.
                                       
                                       I'm begging you not to read more into my words than is actually there.  I'm not interested in a silly forum fight.  Just wanted to lend support and knowledge in a field I have knowledge in.

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                                          Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          Look - I am well aware of what you are saying. I disagree completely. I think the old model is dying and will be replaced with something new and the current transitional phase is a difficult time for writers - both online and print.
                                          
                                          Hopefully this new paradigm will also allow quality writers to come to the forefront and make a living.
                                          
                                          I am not so sure that this is the case though, because we have a large proportion of the current generation coming through with no knowledge of reading anything other than 200 word sound bites and the most popular monetization system does not favor quality writing.
                                          
                                          I have friends in the print world asking me how to transition to online. I make my living writing online and - for me at least - it has been steep learning curve with a need to generate several streams of income which includes publishing BS "news" which is spun for political purposes. I also get paid to write - some of which is under my own name, and some not.
                                          
                                          You no more know the future than I do. You seem to have superior knowledge of journalism, but I am not a mind reader and cannot see through your nom de plume. . Sadly - I think this knowledge is out of date. Whether you like it or not, the quality Sunday paper is going the way of the dodo and we are going to see a new model come through. Exactly what - I don't know.

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                                             Star Witnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                             It will be a quality online paper....or a derivation of such...journalism has a long history and has gone through all kinds of cycles.  Buffet just bought loads of stock in Gannet. 
                                             
                                             No, I cannot foretell the future, but I do know that quality writing has survived the millenium--for a reason.
                                             
                                             Newspapers are suffering, but they are holding on--sometimes with skeleton crews on local levels--but then this is also about the economic climate...  And as far as I know, my former boss Patrick still has the most popular online source in all of Gannet. And it isn't made up of 'content' writers, but local journalists covering the news.  They aren't rich, but then again, they never expected to be.  It's a profession, similar to teaching, whose main aim isn't necessarily wealth.  They do all right.
                                             
                                             MFA programs have also exploded in the last two decades - so although I agree with "these kids now days," and the fact they don't read...it is also likely the way we are going...to put those who do know how to use the written word at a distinct advantage in some sense.
                                             
                                             Sorry, I'm just not a doom and gloom type. lol!  Maybe I'm really not that old.  Anyway, if things are to get/be better...we need people producing quality and sticking by quality.

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      Star Witnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I keep telling you Pam, , I believe your writing is beyond this.
      
      What I see happening is just one stage of a series of what needs to happen--ie, the internet and these sites are just another up-to-date new technology format for the same old stuff that has always been done.  (And actually, thank God for that.)  The medium is seeing an evolution...this stage is the not-so-pretty, lil bit crappy stage.  But eventually, quality must win out if the medium is to have any future, frankly, and it will.
      
      It's the same old stuff.  And that means people who have the goods who can actually write--not just produce 'content' will still be of premium value in the future.
      
      Writing copy is fine...and if someone finds their niche on the internet doing that right now...the more power to them.  I do understand the reason why serious journals and other publications have clung so much to print however...after what I've seen on this site I get that.
      
      Being paid for clicks and affiliates is simply not the same as being paid FOR your writing.  Were I you, I would seriously try to see if you could get a pt job writing online for a newspaper or local magazine....or I also have writing friends who have made $800 or so a month writing for Kirkus Reviews reviewing books.  (Only suggestions, too, ).

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         pgrundyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I heard the other day that Kirkus reviews went under. Bummer. Things really are changing fast. Thanks for the vote of confidence though. You explained this less emotionally and more eloquently than I did, thank you. Being paid for ads and affiliates is NOT the same as being paid for your writing. There's nothing wrong with marketing and hawking stuff online, and we all need to make a living, it's just a different kind of living than writing because you love to write.
         
         I don't mind not getting rich with my writing. What I don't like is being judged purely on the basis of whether or not I'm getting rich. I don't fit into a sales-oriented culture well, but it doesn't mean I'm useless or worth less than people who do.

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            Star Witnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Good God, you are right:  http://www.kirkusreviews.com/kirkusrevi … 1004054346
            
            It just happened this week.  How depressing...
            
            Nobody with an advanced degree in fine arts, literature or writing really thinks about getting rich, I know that personally.  They think about art or writing first and primarily.  As they should.  And I'm sure there are many here who if they wanted, could turn their minds towards making $$$.  Some of us find that sort of concentration soul-crunching.
            
            And as I work in corporate marketing as well, I can tell you that Google search engines, and "feeding the spiders" has its limitations in all reality.  Our organization has a poor internet presence (oh, man, lol, due to many reasons I won't go into) and is just getting going working with social media and backlinks...all that jargon.  Nonetheless, we are ranked #1 in our industry within the state...and have been for the PAST ELEVEN YEARS.
            
            It's that "of lasting value" thing going.  You know, what propelled Warren Buffet towards being one of the wealthiest men in the world?
            
            Final note:  This site would be considerably, considerably poorer if it were not for Pam's presence here (I was just reading some of the, uh, more interesting comments on this thread).  Probably, I would do very little reading on this site if she were not here.

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      barryrutherfordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hi pgrundy
      
      Re your last post I learnt a couple of weeks ago the the
      Universal Declaration of Human Rights was written by a gentleman on his way to work on the Bus to the United Nations Office in Washington.
      
      His Hon Justice Micheal Kirby (www.michealkirby.com.au)
      recounted meeting the gentleman that did this.  He explained how incredible and profound such an elegant document could be written ona bus on the way to work...

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         pgrundyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         That is absolutely awesome. Thank you for sharing it.
         
         I feel slightly better now, seriously.

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   bloodnlatexposted 14 years ago

   Well I will be the first to say that in all my time here, I've made a whopping $10.13 as of five minutes ago.  I'm really not her for the money, which is good because I can't seem to figure out how to get rich like others on here.

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      lyricsingrayposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      hey me too blood

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   pgrundyposted 14 years ago

   <<We just want to make sure we have enough going for us that if for some reason a stream of income is lost there will be enough in the others to not lose any sleep.
   
   Dale>>
   
   
   Dale, I don't begrudge you that at all. I love Nelle, and ryan, and Mark Knowles--I don't mean to say, stop it, don't try to make money online. I'm just making an observation that there's a kind of desperation setting in, and with it come all these hucksters, and common sense tells us there IS an outer limit. EVERYONE can't pay the rent by slapping up websites and writing hubs.
   
   I think what you say about your own situation is a big part of it. 'Normal' work is disappearing. Those who still have jobs work all the time. It favors the young, but people our age still need to eat too.

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      nyliramposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      There is a desperation, true and it shows in thje Hubs as well, I am at present under another name trying what they do, and yes you make money, but what a waste of time in terms of effort.
      My opinion is you would be lily white, sitting typing and working on SEO Backlinks and all the other nonsense while "normal" people were out doing what I like best Recreation, and a real Job. I will be writing Hubs, but at present am just doing this thing as an excercise. I am bored already. I don't exactly need ther revenue, its just that I wonder how much effort is required, and I don't strictly believe the people on this Site, that say they make big money.
      have they sat down an worked out an hourly rate, I doubt it, as it would be a pittance. I have always enjoyed your writings as  that is what they are. I cannot stand researched stuff as they research it directly from the net, so it is a type of Copyright theft. Usually it is put together in an extremely boring way, that could not be said for your original work, not the many other talented people on this Site. The people that others keep raving about, I do not think are even mediocre writers, so I feel that the Site has lost something definitely.

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   Carilayaposted 14 years ago

   I think people are a little obsessed with money these days, but you have to take into account that with the economy being as bad as it is there's a lot of desperate people out there, even more so than usual. I know that if I were laid off I'd want money in a hurry too! Of course, you do have to work hard for it but it's easy to lose sight of that when you're in a bind.
   
   Now, that said - I do agree with the original post and wish that more people were honest about what they make. It's very sad that so many people get rich selling e-books when they don't really know what they're talking about. I'm liking hubpages so far and don't want it to go down that road.

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      ryankettposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I was going to say the same, there are a lot of people that need to sell out for various reasons - perhaps some go about it in the wrong way.

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      Dale Mazurekposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      My partner and i do quite well with Clickbank.  The trick there though is finding products to promote that really do what they say. 
      
      We never promote anything from there until we have bought it and tore it apart into a million pieces to see if what it says it does really is what it does.
      
      You would be surprised how many good ebooks there are on clickbank, but again it is time consuming to distinguish between the garbage and the great products.
      
      One topic to stay away from at Clickbank is the money making products.  We vert rarely find anything there that is worth promoting.
      
      Rarely we will find a gem and run with it but that just doesnt happen very often.

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    Home Girlposted 14 years ago

    I tried to make money on the Internet and gave up. i cannot shift through all that garbage trying to find what really works, so I gave up. Internet nowadays is like a big dumpster where everybody can leave his garbage and not to pay for it. You never know what or whom to trust, what is real what is not. I just write when and how I feel and that's it. If somebody finds it useful - good for him. Thank you.

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    Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years ago

    Oh Pam, I'm going to try to be a bit more interesting this year. I thought my recent hub that you read was pretty non commercial.
    
    But this is how I make my living and pay the bills. And I think it's a pretty neato cool way to do it. I find making money with not much money fascinating. And I do love hunting out niches that work.
    
    I wish there was a way to hide from for all the "interesting" people so I wouldn't bore you to death. I guess just unfollow me.
    
    Sometimes I really feel badly that I'm not writing about fascinating topics, but I've tried that more than a few times and I can't make enough money doing it.

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       pgrundyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Wow, I can't believe you took this personally when I specifically singled you out as a hubber I adore.
       
       I was speaking generally, and it's just my opinion. I left the bank because it was all money money money and here I am and it's more and more of the same.
       
       I apologize if I offended you but it was not personally directed and I took pains to say so. I really like your Vampire book hub and said as much. I also appreciate your suggestions on how I could make more money here if I just did this or that, but did it ever even occur to you that maybe not everyone has your priorities? I would never presume to give you advice on how to improve your writing or anything else about yourself. I respect you for who you are and what you want to do here.
       
       All I'm asking is a little of the same respect. Clearly I won't be getting any here.
       
       I'm really disappointed that you went off on me like that.
       
       I'm entitled to set my own goals and have my own opinions.

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          Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Pam email sent, you misunderstood my literary angst. I'm so so sorry.

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       livewithrichardposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       You have no reason to feel bad Nelle, you came here with a purpose and you are doing exactly that.  Same with me, I didn't come to HP to show off my creative writing talents, I have other outlets for that.  I came here to promote my online content.  I was only after a few quality backlinks but then I was very taken with the HP community. I like to share what I have learned online as a way to give back to the community.
       
       Maybe this place isn't what it use to be several years ago but it hasn't changed a bit for me.  People come and go.  They ask the same questions that have been asked dozens of times and a lot of us answer those questions dozens of times over.
       
       Seems to me that if HP didn't want people to come here to earn money from their writing, they wouldn't be spending thousands of $$$ each month on advertising that as the purpose to come here.

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    waynetposted 14 years ago

    I'll admit I did used to do this, but since I've learned the error of my ways, useful reviews are far better in terms of usefulness and actual insight into the products, sure there are benefits of a product or service, but there has to be some flaw or something that you didn't like and if a review contains both sides then that is more believable, that they have actually owned and used the product.
    
    Some people who are new to trying to get people to sign up for the get rich quick schemes don't often write good reviews and it is usually all hype based cack that they dreamt up, I'm getting better at reviews now because I always buy, like you said Dale before you review which is always the best course of action, sometimes you can fake it with research into others reviews of the same product but I rarely do that anymore as the more personal and in depth the reviews, the better.
    
    I recently did a review of the secret affiliate weapon and in that I mentioned that it wasn't the best affiliate learning product out there, but it was a good review and a long one too, it's just about how you approach it really! and truthfully!

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    pmccrayposted 14 years ago

    Rant please...I like you am so tired of knuckle dragging con artists who try and steal from those who can ill afford it.  I've finally learned "if it sounds to good to be true it is". 
    
    It sickens me to see the false advertizements used to lure the unsuspecting into a web of deceit.  I include the scam e-mails "Out of Africa" that I receive daily what a bunch of losers to prey on people, how do they sleep at night?

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       AEvansposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Who knows but people fall for it which is unfortunate.

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    Just Some Guyposted 14 years ago

    Well, as a newbie to here, I'm aiming to try & put up some hubs that combine decent content with a chance to get some adsense income, given time.
    
    I've going to be on involuntary half-time working from the end of the year for a few months, then the current job ends.  I'm hoping to spend some of it researching some niches I can contribute something to while job hunting, so with luck I'll find another job  at which point I'll (hopefully!) only have time to maintain things rather than too much new construction.  For the moment though, it's just a matter of trying to find niches that I can actually cover in a way someone would want to read!
    
    (Although I am tempted to do my own 'how to make money online' hub, just for the fun of it, and see how it compares in traffic with my 'normal' hubs! :-))

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15. 69

    Bill Manningposted 14 years ago

    Interesting thread. I myself joined up to use hub pages both to make a little bit, but mainly to get traffic to my own websites.
    
    Which is something I don't understand. So many make hubs, squidoo lens and so on to make money. But you can make much more with your own blog or website.
    
    So why do so many just use these third party places that take half or more of your money when you can have total freedom with your own sites and keep all your money?
    
    I work full time at home, making my own sites. I make hubs, lens, blogspot blogs and so on for the links to my own sites. Nothing wrong with that; I make good articles no matter where I write.
    
    I just don't get why more don't make their own sites? Lack of tech knowledge? Not sure how, what??

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       Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Hi Bill, You sound like me when I first got here. (I didn't say it in the forum, but I was thinking it.)
       
       Just a little background. I have been in affiilate marketing for 9 years now and have many of my own websites. Like you I came here for backlinks to my other sites.
       
       And what I've discovered is a "little goldmine." The traffic to Hubpages is unbelievable. While there are limited affiliate opportunities and HubPages gets 40% of the impressions, the traffic alone makes up for it. This is one of the easiest places I've found to make money online. The interfaces is super easy to use and I can focus on niche and keyword research.
       
       I am quite happy with the income stream that I'm developing here and am exploring ways to integrate it more with my other sites.
       
       There are quite a few of us here who make good money. And there are many more who are learning the ropes here, who soon will be.

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    Bill Manningposted 14 years ago

    Hi Nelle! Well yes of course, traffic is where it's all at. If you can make money here while also linking to your sites than it's a win-win deal.
    
    I'm too new to see how much traffic is here. I write over at Associated Content too, for the same reasons. I'm in the middle of making myself a big network for two different sites.
    
    So if you can make good money here than great. Many don't know how to get traffic to their own site, which I assume is why many don't do their own sites.
    
    My biggest one gets over 2,000 uniques a day just from links. So linking is the key. Anyway thanks for the insight.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    I reported the spam.

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       adamareangereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks, I was going to do that and then refreshed. Some people are jerks!

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          agvulpesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Ummmm I don't really think you should have reposted the spammers links. What do you think ?

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    sunforgedposted 14 years ago

    Anti-Spam 101
    
    never quote and repost their links..jeez 

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    adamareangereposted 14 years ago

    Lol, sorry about that. I wasn't thinking!

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    kmackey32posted 14 years ago

    I think I am too honest. I even called into work on mothers day and told the supervisor because my children begged to not to go to work so I was not coming in. The next shift supervisor told me I shouldn't be so honest but I can't help it...

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    bojanglesk8posted 14 years ago

    With ordinary talent and extraordinary perseverance all things are attainable.

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    Mishaposted 14 years ago

    Good for you Dale, my stamina is over

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Mine too. Even family and friends still get caught after I have tried to explain. I just let em now!

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    BEAUTYBABEposted 14 years ago

    I am shocked  by some of the things I am reading in the forums, talk about making money on hubs, and how some people believe that some people are writing hubs purely for monetary gain.I personally do not write to see how much money I can make as a first choice of being with Hubpages. I found Hubpages at a time when I needed a distraction from the pain that I suffer from my terminal disease. I started writing to give myself something to fill in the times on the nights that  can't sleep. I have enjoyed writing my hubs, although I have not had much traffic through. I have started recently to write a bit of poetry and have had some very nice comments with regard to them. I love reading other peoples hubs also and when I find something that really appeals to me, I tell the person who has written the hub, and why I liked their hub so much. I feel that my hubs are not too bad, and I put a lot of work into them. For someone who is very ill, I have been praised by my family and friends, even my Doctors, for doing such a good job. I feel disappointed because I don't get higher scores however on my hubs, because I really do try to make an effort to do the best I can under difficult circumstances. I have a website but I don't understand about linking up yet, also I would like to understand a bit more on affiliate marketing for example with Amazon. If anyone would like to help me with this I would be most appreciative.  God Bless one and all.
    
    I WOULD LIKE TO WISH ALL THE HUBPAGES STAFF AND ALL THE HUBBERS A VERY HAPPY AND SAFE CHRISTMAS AND ALL THE BEST WISHES FOR THE NEW YEAR 2010 FOR ALL OF THEM.
    
      GOD BLESS ONE AND ALL, FROM BEAUTYBABE.

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    pgrundyposted 14 years ago

    Mark, I don't think it has to be all one or the other with never the twain shall meet. I'm never going to be rich. I knew that 40 years ago. It doesn't mean my writing sucks and it doesn't mean I'm stupid. It doesn't suck and I'm not stupid.
    
    I'm making my own choices based on my own values, and I've sacrificed a lot to live the way I want to live. I write, I make enough money to pay my way, but I don't make tons of money and for me things are rarely all about the money. That's my personality. It isn't likely to change after 56 years.
    
    The reasons I write are more personal than financial and I'm not crying about the money. What pisses me off is the hype. If you can make a six figure income by being smart at squeezing money out of the internet, that's great. It doesn't make you worse than me for going after the money, but it doesn't make you better either. I get this vibe all the time at HP lately (not from you personally) like, "Whoa Pam, are you stupid? Why aren't you doing X=Y-Z," from self-proclaimed experts. It's not very respectful. I'm not 12.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Oh, I know. But I think this is more indicative of our current shitty society than anything else. You know I respect your writing, and do not think I am any better than you because I make some money doing this - because I am not. I am also well aware how fickle the entire thing is and I could just as likely be broke next month. I have been working my ass off to do this and the goal posts keep getting moved. Believe me - making money is not my driving force and I will be finished doing this for a living within the next 2 years. I also respect that that is not your driving force and am sort of shocked at the amount of people who do not grasp that there are more reasons to write about things than just to make money.
       
       But look at every thing else. Hype and BS is what our entire society is based on. It is not just the internet.
       
       You are too fat/thin/bald/old-looking/wearing the wrong label/driving the wrong car. And on and on.
       
       The world's scumbags (politicians) ran out of bullet proof limos in Copenhagen and special ordered 200 to be shipped in from Switzerland. At a conference to discuss limiting human impact on climate change.
       
       My point was this - The making money online thing is not going to change all the time google make millions from people clicking on ads on crappy quality content. They run the search engine that counts. They decide on the traffic level you can generate. They decide how to rank your work. They decide how much money you get per click and will not tell you how the decide this. Totally opaque. You think they do not have a vested interest in maximizing their revenues?
       
       If you want to write and be read - do not rely on the search engines for your traffic.

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          pgrundyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Your last sentence is the scariest one. We are not enemies or any such thing as that. In a forum things come off more extreme than they are in reality. Still, I don't think this is a minor issue. If I did I guess I'd shut up about it. If I was capable of doing what you do I might be doing it. Since I'm NOT, I'm doing what I am good at. But I'm keenly aware that what I'm good at is no longer valued, at ALL. So that puts me in a sad place, doesn't it?
          
          I could try to gain the skills you have, and Misha has, and Lissie, and other people who are doing it, but I know myself pretty well at this age. It's not going to happen. So at some point I will likely just drop off the map, and become a fossil or something--at least in regard to writing online.
          
          Even in print media these days if you don't have your own marketing plan right from the start, you can drop dead. Every single thing is talk that trash get that cash, and if you can't or won't then to hell with you. But I don't have to accept it. I will suffer the consequences if I don't, but I can still say no thanks. Like they say, I was looking for a job when I found this one.   
          
          So where does all this leave writers who do want to be read but aren't salesmen, internet marketers, and 20-hour-a-day workaholics? It puts them out of the game. You can't expect me to celebrate that.

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             EmpressFelicityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I totally understand where you're coming from (and am in what is probably a very similar situation myself), but unfortunately all types of work throw up similar dilemmas IME.  I've worked in offices where how well you did had far more to do with your ability to fit into the "company culture" than it did to do with anything boring like actually being good at your job. 
             
             As long as it's possible to make a living without compromising your basic values, then it's worth sticking with what you're doing.

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    barryrutherfordposted 14 years ago

    Good. By the way Micheal Kirby's website and speeches are well worth a read !

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    privateye2500posted 14 years ago

    These types of people who are only SPAMMERS and care Nothing for any kind of Community spirit have and always will be around. 
    
    I would *think* that hubpages would have *some* sort of rules/limits to just how far they can go - get away with.  Sure, we report them--but does it really do any good?
    
    It doesn't seem to me it does, even with written explaination about it...
    
    They are just a fact of internet life - much like the fliers you get in your mailbox by the boatload...only difference is we can't say *NO FLIERS* and plaster it on the mailbox - it doesn't work in cyberspace.
    
    Merry Christmas everyone.
    
    Melanie

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    sunforgedposted 14 years ago

    

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       Star Witnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Hehehhee!  Yes, there is always that.  Quite useful, too!

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    WriteAngledposted 14 years ago

    The way search engines are set up makes me sad. To gain readers for any type of writing it is necessary to use important keywords in the title, first sentence, etc, etc. I find that trying to do this stymies my natural voice. It prevents me using amusing titles, playing on words and making writing style the first priority.
    
    I guess I'm an old fogey. I positive LIKE discursive, even slightly rambling writing. It is getting more and more difficult to find this.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago

    I am not doom and gloom. I would be very happy to see what we have had over the last few years replaced with something different.
    
    The internet has never happened before, and who knows? The simple fact is - nothing in journalism has really changed since the first printing press. Sure - the unions have been destroyed and it has become far less labor intensive, but apart from that? Nope. The purpose of newspapers is to sell advertising space. Nothing more - nothing less. It has never really bean about providing information.
    
    No - actually - far from doom and gloom - I am excited to be "in on the ground floor" of what I think will be something new, and I hope it does reward good writing with monetary rewards, but - it is not doing so at the moment.
    
    I am very hopeful, but see the rather large hurdles we must overcome.

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       Star Witnessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       So, we actually agree...to some extent (ie, it has always been about a news product as well...although advertising is the bread and butter, yeah).  So, my reiterating, though--that it is just the same thing we have always been about.  And like the printing press, I love the fact that the internet has further democratized writers' and readers' voices in some way.  (There is both good and bad in changes.)
       
       Anyway...there are some writers' whose work is kind of beyond this kind of murky middle ground.  They don't even realize it...and I would bet pushing it harder in whatever venue would pay off.    This is my point here.

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