How Are Atheists Created?
Before I go into this discussion, we all need to understand that I am not a scientist, I am not a prophet, and I am not an expert on the topic. I am merely trying to offer my belief in how atheism occurs. And why some of you might not like what I am about to say, understand that it is not meant as an attack on atheism or religious belief - it is merely a collection of observations I have made personally that might help one side understand the other.
First off, we define atheism as a disbelief in God, but there are those who carry the definition further to men those that do not attend church, those who don't read the Bible, and those who don't believe in Jesus.
In actuality, atheism is the act of rejecting religious views, preferring to view the world outside the realm of religion. It's people saying there is no higher power to answer to.
Now, before going any further, I need it to be known that I am not an atheist ... I'm merely doing what I can to explain how people make the choice to become atheists.
For many, the choice is made for them. Religion offers that all things are possible through prayer and many people take this to heart. So, when they pray for something really big (such as, not having a loved one day), and that person dies, they become angry with God and refuse to believe in him anymore.
However, we can't hate what we refuse to believe in. These people are not true atheists, as their hatred for God shows a belief exists. And modern religion doesn't help, as these people are made to feel wrong over their vendetta with God, which only goes to show them that God's followers have turned on them as well.
These people grow to hate God more, convinced that religion must be false. Why else would God and his believers turn against them? Surely, in their minds, it can only be because they have exposed a truth - God doesn't really exist. They then dig deeper to prove this non-existence, angering the believers more, proving the person right in their own mind to no longer believe.
In time, they do fall to true atheism, going with the mindset that it is them versus an invisible God, and they seek retribution on that part of the world that has turned against them ... seeing no love or beauty in something they once held sacred. They feel cheated ... and those who keep calling them a sinner only make things worse.
Of course, for others it's simply a lack of proof that makes them atheists. They witness religion as a whole, seeing the many cruel and evil things performed by those who say they believe and deem it impossible for a religion based on goodness to be represented by those who act so poorly.
They listen to the zealots scream about salvation being at hand and see it as no more than lunacy, for in their minds they already have a mathematical equation that proves God can't possibly exist. And for every verse offered as proof, they see it as nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
And then there is another type of atheist. This atheist sees religion as control and does not want to give up control of their own life. They can't see any beauty in God as they see God as nothing more than a method for the few to control the many. Considering what they see happening among the believers, they feel their point proven over and over again.
The final type of atheist wants to believe in God, but is unable to do so, as they can't be certain which path is the right one to follow. With so many contradicting views being offered they know not which way to turn or how to behave.
With no certainty as to which path actually leads to God, they roam aimlessly, setting up their own belief system to comfort themselves and refusing to accept what others offer. Person A tells them they must take a path through the mountains to achieve salvation, whereas person B tells them they must avoid the mountains at all costs - and so, the person remains motionless, unable to travel any further.
But here's the ultimate truth all followers need to know. While atheism isn't created by believers, believers work hard to prevent atheists from changing their view. How?
By passing judgment on atheists and calling them impure, they widen the gap between atheists and God. And there are other methods used: blame, unworthiness, ostracism, the list goes on ...
And then atheists receive the true message of God (at least the one the followers are willing to deliver). If you are an atheist then there is no God for you, and thus, you must go away and never return to the flock.
Never once in my 43 years have I seen a man gently encouraged to give up atheism and return to religion. Never once have I seen a believer tell an atheist to travel the road they feel most comfortable with, in the hope this gesture might make it easier for the atheist to return to religion.
Once an atheist ... never again with God ... that's what many believers feel in their heart - and this prevents atheists from ever returning to religion unless they are willing to totally reinvent themselves and force themselves to embrace the full doctrine again, rather than have a chance to accept it slowly - as they once did as children.
We ... believers ... hold atheists away from God. And this makes no sense, as The Bible says to 'go out and preach the word'. Somewhere, the message got convoluted into 'force those to believe who will do so and abandon those who you see as having no hope'.
Religion is not a country club ... it's a belief in goodness that can be shared by all. Believers should never determine how another man is to believe in God ... lest they help foster yet another atheist in this world.
To all believers I ask you this ... How many atheists have you brought back to God? How many non-believers have you converted to belief? Do you spread the word to those who don't believe, or do you use the words of God to push them away like a knife?
Is the Bible a book of worship for all, or is it a sword to be wielded into the backs of those who don't believe?
I ask these questions this Christmas Eve, as we consider this one of the most holy days of the year. As such, we should take this day to reflect upon what we have done over the past 365 days and then ask what we could do better in the 365 to come.
As for me ... I will continue as I have for many years ... not judging those who chose not to believe and hoping - though my own actions - to show them that belief does not entail surrendering to religion, but rather, relishing in what belief has to offer.
I don't quote versus; I don't threaten eternal damnation; I don't pass judgment. I simply offer that life can be better when one allows themselves to believe God watches over them, never allowing them to be left alone.
This is the true message of Christmas, that none of us should ever be alone ... as we all should have someone watching over our shoulders. Even for the atheist I offer substance ... that while you might not believe in God, you could conceive that there could be someone out there who believes in you. Don't call him God ... just consider it the essence of life looking after one of its own. And you need not pray ... you need only to allow yourself the moment to feel warm inside, and to realize you have lived through another day - for which you should be thankful.
And to all believers I say this to you. Atheists are not the enemy of God - they are his lost children. Allow them to find their own way as you once found yours. And should they never find the road again, know that God looks out for them and does not ask you to do this in his place.
Bless all, without exception ... may your holiday be a safe and merry one!
I hear what you are saying, and I too feel troubled by all of this. However, I think we all mistake God as a force we can call upon to end everyone's woes. While others might subscribe to that - I do not.
Consider well what I am about to say, and you might find you agree:
In my eyes God is an inner spirit, not a force to be mediated to accomplish things. It's the inner good within all of us that allows us to do good things. As an example, it's the inner voice that tells us not to walk past a beggar seeking food, but rather to take him to a restaurant and buy him a meal - to insure that he isn't hungry.
We constantly (believers and non-believers alike) want to consider God and us as separate entities, which is somehow supposed to make God into a being we can praise or curse. I do not see God in this light.
We all have an ability to do good things, and believe or disbelief in God does not prevent any of us from feeding the starving or healing the sick and dying.
I do know exactly what you mean when you say 'I'll be sure to pass along your friendly note to those thousands of children who do believe god watches over them, but starve to death daily anyways, despite their beliefs and yours.'
You have every right to be angry, because humans offset the need to help others - choosing to push the job off onto God, instead of doing it themselves.
I lived in Houston a few years back and saw many homeless in my time. I always helped out as I could. I didn't wait for God to feed them, I helped feed them myself. Religion does not absolve a human being from helping another human being - if anything, it should make the need to do so more well known - but we both know the truth of that.
Which is more evil ... the man who refuses to do good deeds or the man who professes good deeds must be done and does not do them himself?
We both know the answer to this question, and I can see how it is a focus for your anger with religion. As an believer I can say this without any reservation ... you have EVERY right to be angry. In fact, you should be FURIOUS, as I am certain from your own words that you too have given to the poor and the destitute, hoping to make life better for them for the moment - and not once did you ask for reward nor praise. You did it because you are a good person.
And by my definition, the goodness inside of a person is their personal spirit - their God , if you will - and there are many non-believers that are closer to God than there are believers, as their intents and motives are based upon doing the right thing, and not upon doing the right thing because they feel compelled they must do so.
No, I take no offense to your statements. I will not argue against a man I know to be right.
The extent of God's spirit ends where we are unwilling to share it (in believer's terms) and the amount of good that is accomplished ends where we are unwilling to help out (in non-believer's terms). It's all the same pie ... only some of us chose to identify the goodness inside with a name (God), whereas others just settle with the fact that it is a part of who they are.
So ... shake a fist at God if you feel the need to do so, but understand that the power to do good deeds resides in us - and in doing so, we show ourselves as good-hearted and worthy people.
As I said, I understand your words more than you might think, as I once blamed God too. I then realized I could make a difference by doing something ... rather than waiting for it to happen. And I also realized that God was the good side of myself, and I have been determined ever since to make it grow by helping others where I can.
No, God is not a being standing over your shoulders ... God is a feeling from within - it's what tells us right from wrong and allows us to become more than we were the day before. We all share responsibility for those who suffer among us - just as we all share the ability to reach out and help as we can.
Belief is your choice, and I will not find fault in you either way. However, what I ask of people is not belief ... it's something bigger ... humanity - and there are far too many who have left this behind, far too busied with out own lives to see the suffering around us.
Donning a hat does not make one more humane ... it's what one does with his own two hands that enters the final judgment upon them ... and that's irrespective of our beliefs.
They prayed about it every day till they became men and women.
Like This...
Well if anyone forgives ignorance it should be you!
Be nice to the Mormons they are not atheists. If you really knew them you would be embarassed you said that. They donate more time and money to service projects in their communities than an equal number of any other church. There's no paid clergy they're there because they want ot be everyone teaches and everyone helps. If you met some that were not polite then that was the exception not the rule and I'm sorry that happened. Merry Christmas!
Just like we unbelievers eh sneaker?
That's true. But sometimes they're so boring !!
Here in HP, they're always telling me I should put some clothes on !
LOL Thanks for your misguided post. Atheists don't hate God, just their radical followers. And don't think your "God" is the only one. Afterall, the Christian religion is one of the youngest religion.
So maybe you should ask yourself why you "hate" the other religions gods since they have been around longer
Why do you choose to believe in a God that's not as old as the others or their prophets? That is the question
- lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago
0 - Will Bensonposted 14 years ago0
- sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago0
Actually, it's not a judgment, but rather my observations. I'm no more fit to judge mankind than the next person. I would be a pompous turd to write all that and say 'and that's the way it is', because it isn't.
As these are observations that are open to interpretation to all, they could be filled with fallacy. Like I said, I'm not a prophet, I'm not a scientist, and I'm not an expert on the topic. As I am none of these, I'm neither skilled or ordained to pass judgment - that's why I felt it important to preface everything I said as I wanted to give everyone something to think about.
I'm not looking for converts to my faith. In fact, that would be impossible, as my current beliefs don't fit entirely within any faith.
All I am looking for is for one side to hopefully understand the other better, with the hope some good could come of it.
- sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago0
I thoroughly agree with everything you said.
I did try to differentiate by saying you can't hate God and not believe in him, because you can't hate what you don't believe in, but I think the length of my post helped that sniglet become lost in the words.
If any message was to come of it, I had hoped it would be that non-believers are often pushed into disbelief, and they should be allowed to find their own path rather than be persecuted for their choice.
Yes, at this time of excess it is worth thinking about the rest of mankind.
Mugabe's drunken criminals through another white farmer off his farm this morning I heard on BBC.
Not a happy Xmas for us all!Some would say luck is just an accident at birth
Interesting. I have heard the song, but did not remember their name. Yes they were not mainstream, and if I try I may even remember the stupid polly who said that!
Same same.
I hope you don't mind me butting in there earnest
Awwww, bubba got a sooore tummy?
Go to church, they will give you a good rubThank you, but I'm fine now I've barfed on your shirt!
- Citrus000posted 14 years ago0
- Citrus000posted 14 years ago0
Using any method to get an atheist to come back to religion is nonsense. Most atheist are intelligent, and asking them to come back to your way of thinking is asking them to be intellectually dishonest. Believers believe, despite the fact that religion defies common sense, and has to resort to magic as an explanation for the many outlandish claims.
Whether you think so or not, belief in an imaginary being is a delusion. That is all it is! There is really nothing to offer an atheist--except a delusion. It would be better if the religionists just kept their nonsense to themselves. I left religion a long time ago, and I'm never going to be intellectually dishonest again. Many great thinkers throughout history have shared this view.
Hmmm ... I'm beginning to understand why the English language should not be an international language, as so much can be misinterpreted easily and it takes so many words (a book) to convey a thought completely. Not to mention, we as humans (including myself) suffer from an attention deficit when reading anything lengthy.
So ... I will try something different ... I will be extremely brief, but I already know that doing so will make my message appear snooty, aloof, and rude - that is not my intention. I'm just a bit frustrated at having my words spun around in a direction I never sent them and then redirected at me.
Atheists ... I'm okay with the fact that you don't believe in God and I don't think believers should force you into belief. As long as you live a good life - we're good.
Believers ... You believe in God and you believe that God watches over his children, so believe that God will watch over the atheists and that you don't need to force them into belief - if God wanted them forced upon the path, he's all powerful, he would do it himself. As such, free will means more to God than belief.
Agnostics ... you are often seen as atheists and you teeter on the brink of becoming such. Take your time on the precipice and make the choice that you are most comfortable with - when you are ready to make it.
Believers and Non-believers alike ... Compassion is the greatest gift man has to offer. One does not need belief to help their fellow man and one should not help their fellow man because they feel it is a part of their belief. Compassion should come from within our hearts and minds. We also should not pray for that which we ourselves can deliver - nor should we consider prayer as payment for goods not yet received.
And to paraphrase the rest ... agnostics reject God, but a day can arrive when they come to the logical conclusion that God must not exist - making them into atheists. It is the furious pummeling received from believers that seems to offer this proof to the many self-proclaimed atheists I have met in my travels, for they offer this as proof - if God truly existed, his people would seek good deeds to accomplish and would treat all with endless compassion - but they see this not, which is why they come to the logical conclusion that the doctrine must be false.
Consider it for what it all is by looking at it all from a logical standpoint ...
Let's say I was considered a deity and I hid out in a bunker sending messengers telling you how to live a good life. Each day my messengers would spread my words, and while you never met me you knew I had to exist because of the fact my word was constantly being spread - and the words sounded good enough to be followed, and so you followed them.
However, you see many poor and homeless not being cared for by those who have received the good words. You're told that I care for them, but you see no proof of this. And in anger, you speak out against me and are denounced by your followers for a lack of belief in me. After all, nothing good can happen for you unless you believe in me - as I am the one from whom all blessing flow.
You might ask yourself ... what did the poor and the homeless do to lose my blessing? Why do I allow my people to ignore the destitute, when I say it is their duty to help them?
Am I at fault as a deity for not taking care of the destitute myself? Are my followers at fault for not caring for these people as I have asked them to do? For all that matter, can it actually be said that I am really in that bunker? Yes, the messengers have seen me - but can their words be trusted?
This logical downward spiral leads to atheism. Perhaps, it's an enlightenment and the ultimate truth of things - the bunker is empty and it's all up to us - perhaps we are just poor followers and don't do as we were asked - to care for one another.
That's where you need to wrap your mind around something many are refusing to see. You DON'T need me inside that bunker do help the poor and the homeless, and you DON'T need to help them to appease me! If my goal was for you to be a good person then your belief in me would be irrelevant as I would not be a self-serving and vain deity looking for sockpuppets to agree with everything I say and do nothing to make it happen. It's all about the goal - goodness to one's fellow man - and I don't think we need to do too much thinking to understand the rewards to humanity if we could all adopt that principle.
Am I believer in God? I consider myself one, but one can argue that I am an atheist, an agnostic, and a believer all wrapped up into one - and I have been accused of all three.
Do I believe in a supreme being? No, so I am an atheist by definition.
Do I believe there is a spiritual good inside all of us, but that it's not necessarily what others would call God? Yes, so I'm an agnostic.
Do I believe that we are all held accountable for our actions and that there is a possibility for an afterlife? Yes, so I'm a believer.
One can't possibly be all three - and yet, by definition I am.
But enough of that ...
I have one core belief, which is the only one I want to brainwash people with. Reject the rest I have said and consider it mad, delusional drivel ... that's what I want ... for what I am about to say next is all that I want anyone to take from this conversation ...
*Be good to one another ... help those you can help ... make the world a better place to live in*
That's all I can ask of anyone here.Uh ... so far as I remembered we were friends, and as a friend I would never attack or belittle you. I re-explained myself as I felt you took my original post as an attack on individuals here, and I felt if it was possible for one of my friends to take my message the wrong way then perhaps I had confused everyone.
We are not enemies, Tantrum, nor do I care to lose you as a friend over this discussion. If what I have said here in this post offends you then consider my discussion on this topic as over - as I don't want my opinions to invalidate our friendship.
I'm not sure how you saw any of this as personal, but I assure you ... it never was, regardless of what you might have read into it. Again, that's why I hate the English language, as one can never be certain who they will offend with a poor choice of words.
Do you think I'm so stupid or childish to cease being your friend, here in HP?
and of course we're not enemies !
Religion is not that important !
I'm only replying to what I think is wrong in what you said.
I hate when someone says Atheists are lost.
I find it offensive.
That's all!
I didn't misunderstood you :
'And to all believers I say this to you. Atheists are not the enemy of God - they are his lost children. Allow them to find their own way as you once found yours. 'That's the poor choice of words I spoke of. Believers see non-believers as lost children so to them I was speaking in context - but non-believers definitely don't see themselves in that light. If anything, they see themselves as finally awakened.
I've spent my whole life bouncing around with religion, determining what I can support and what I cannot, so I can understand the three sides - total doubt, confusion, and total belief. Unfortunately, you cannot sit down with each team and have a private conversation with them without riling the other team.
Had I instead said this ...
'And to all believers I say this to you. Atheists are not the enemy of God - they are people who chose to reject his existence out of logic. Allow them to find their own way as you once found yours.'
... I would have offended the believers. There was no way to ask for neutrality during the holidays without offending someone, and I banked on the fact that the statement I originally wrote offered concessions for both - that non-believers should be allowed to believe that they will, with believers believing them to be just lost sheep.
My wish was to have a holiday without a religious debate ... and in trying to prevent one I created one ...
Ya know, if I didn't have such a big heart none of this would bother me ...
Well, I have a small heart, so it's not bothering me.
Have your Holiday in peace !- lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago0
OK.
Yoshi, sorry, I can read such long posts. To answer the title question - atheists are created the same way as theists, by conception
- Hikikomoriposted 14 years ago0
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