I was asked to pray at an atheist funeral. why?

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   sooner than laterposted 14 years ago

   un-cooth to boot.

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   sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago

   Because now he knows the truth so he'll be pleased you didn't give up on him.

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      sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      could be. I'm not asking him.

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   sooner than laterposted 14 years ago

   Assumtion #1. --> "guide" them to the church"
   
   they came of their own acord.

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      Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Sophistical argument; you know exactly what I meant by "guide." Please tell me you're not going to barf up a bunch of lame semantics, red herrings and the rest of the evasive garbage off the great sophists' playbook of diversionary fallacy.

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   sooner than laterposted 14 years ago

   Assumption #2 -->"a feat you could not do before they were struck such a tremendous blow"
   
   These 2 are in your first statement. I know who can and who can't have conversations without these types of comments. I'm not going down the road with you tonight as you are already iritating me. take that as a fair warning and my piece of ending your charade.

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      Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Because you choose to dodge my fair question and strap on a mask of superciliousness does not give you the ability to be the "charade" ender.  You started the forum, opening this up for all to see. But I am duly warned, thanks for that.  Man, I was like totally terrified right there.

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         Actioncameronposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         shade you are very funny. I enjoy that quirky sense of humour.

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         earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Eventually comes the threat! Religionists have to make a threat, it's how their book tells them to think.

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            sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Haha, yes I warned that I would not continue to argue on an assumptive level. watch out. When is your space ship coming to land. You are orbital in thought. WAYYYY OUT.

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   sooner than laterposted 14 years ago

   uh huh. thanks for your time.

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   sooner than laterposted 14 years ago

   "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
   
   They don't burn for eternity, they burn up. I don't know who will be there. Stop making false assumptions and accusations

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      greeneyesH1982posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      seek him always my friend.. IGNORE the rest... they are only upsetting you and that you do not need in this time..... no food no fun for them.... ignore ignore and turn your eyes back onto God... these things I think take our eyes from him...

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      Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Oh - sorry. You are one of the "burned up" believers. OK - Then you wouldn't catch me going to a church is I knew the big fella had "burned up," my kid for not believing.
      
      Thanks for correcting me.

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   Andrew0208posted 14 years ago

   @poster, count it all joy that you were called to pray at your friend's funeral. The prayer is not for the dead to get saved but for the edification of the living. Share your testimonies of God's love and power among them.

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      sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      good advice, thank you.

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      Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      He did "share" his religion.  He caught that family in a time of crisis, and, after having their son stolen from them by Fate, God or Satan (take your pick), he stole their faith from them too, or assisted one of the above entities in stealing, however subtly or innocently the claim may be.
      
      They lost a child and, thanks to help from our pal here, they lost their belief in a world that is predictable, tangible, and, at least someday, understandable.  The faith they chose and drew comfort from in their day to day lives, comfort from believing they were part of something real and verifiable as they saw it... and then, when the opportunity to convert them from their unbelieving ways, when they were at their very weakest,...  their faith was stolen from them and exchanged for another, a different view and nothing more, exchanged for a belief in an unseen deity that is opposite of their faith in reason. 
      
      I'm not even saying Christianity, even this particular predatory variant of it, is not "the truth."  My point is that, in a manipulative, skulking about at the edges of the firelight sort of way, a ruse-of-kindness masking supremacy of belief and "I told you so" pseudo-conflict kind of way, to wait until someone is totally stripped of all resources, emotional/physical/spiritual, to seize that moment to push them into a religion they didn't believe in is just ... I can't even fathom what kind of person would be capable of that, no matter how innocently the claims may be.  That didn't happen by accident. Like Mark said, who goes willingly to the God that is burning their child's soul?
      
      Couldn't even wait six months or a year for them to get some sort of reserves back so they could make the choice rationally and with some ability to put together cogent thoughts.  I have never been so stupefied by a forum thread as I am by this one.  Still.

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         The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         That's probably a little unfair.
         
         It's what happened, in a sense, but it's not the believer's motivation.
         
         This is going to sound sort of condescending, but I can't really phrase it so it's not.  Believers take the same tone and I find it infuriating, but I think it's true, so here goes:
         
         ...Atheists sometimes hold believers to an unfair standard of rational behavior regarding their beliefs.  Their beliefs are not rational.  They are ill-informed.  Their behaviors are consequently ill-informed.
         
         For an atheist there are no gods, no metaphysical consequences to our feelings of declared spiritual allegiances.  The world is what it is.  Human suffering is human suffering, human weakness is human weakness, and it would be wrong to take advantage of it.
         
         To most atheists, if a believer was grieving the recent loss of a loved one, to take advantage of that weakness, to leap in and say "Hah!  Where is your god now!" would be unthinkably cruel.  That person's suffering and they're having a chance to deal with it as they are best able is more important.  It doesn't matter that they believe things that aren't true, trying to change that now would be cruel, would make their already painful mental state even more unstable and treacherous.
         
         Most believers won't see it that way.  Not because they're cruel, but because to them they're not just dealing in ideas and beliefs, they're dealing in divine truths.  Many of them have been taught to believe their god is the source of all happiness, all comfort, all love.  If that's the case, it's going to be natural to try and extend that god to the ailing person.
         
         It's not just an idea to them, it's a real thing.  A powerful spirit that can affect our emotions and wants to help.  It doesn't matter that it's not really there, they're acting on the understanding that it is.
         
         Even for a half-way believer, who goes through the motions and tries to convince themselves they believe in a god but really don't, they probably retreat to honest belief in times of emotional hardship. 
         
         For believers in general their god is probably more real to them at this time than it normally is.
         
         When you've made the rounds, been over ever inch of the philosophy and logic and the dark corners in the back of your head looking for gods, and realized they're not there it's easy to project that knowledge onto others.  Especially if you've encountered genuinely predatory and/or dishonest behavior in the name of religion before.  So you see only the predatory aspect of it, the faith trying to grab up more members. 
         
         It's easy to uncharitably think they theist in question knows their god isn't there and only the predatory nature of organized religion is motivating them, but that's almost certainly not the case.

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            Andrew0208posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            
            "...but because to them they're not dealing in ideas and beliefs, they're dealing in divine truths."
            That is the sure walk of faith which is foolishness in the eyes of the proud.

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               Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               No pride here.

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                  Andrew0208posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Mark, I have many atheist good friends(young and old together) who from every understanding enjoy their rival pride against divinity. In fact most of them who dropped this pride, did it on a terrible sick bed or strange happenings after which their pride of self, education, enough money, properties and science failed them. The reality is, pride goes before a fall; bitter truth.

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                     Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Your pride in your religion should disgust you.
                     
                     Odd that it does not.

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                        Andrew0208posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         
                        
                        I don't believe in religion nor pride in it, I believe in Christ Jesus, the Greater Light of the whole world.

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                           tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           So you're a Christian.
                           I thought that was a belief.

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                              Andrew0208posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                               
                              
                              I hail from Zion. A believer in Christ. I thank God for His love and grace at work in me.

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                           Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           How very proud you sound Andrew. Actually, hubris is probably more appropriate. Remember your own words. For myself, I have discovered that a fall can come at any time, pride or no.

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                              Andrew0208posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              You should know it all as you've always supposed. Nice ride man. The message has been passed.

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            Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            A well considered and respectful perspective, even logical. Roughly what Sir Dent was trying to say I believe.  However...
            
            Guys driving vans stuffed with bombs into civilian-packed coffee shops believe they are doing the right thing too.
            
            And, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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               The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               That's not quite the same.
               
               Those guys seem to be keen on getting to a heaven with 72 virgins.  They love their god, they're eager to be rewarded for their bravery by their god, but they hate the people they blow up.
               
               A theist who tries to convert a grieving atheist probably isn't feeling any hatred from them.

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                  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  No, but atheists feel the pity and contempt from the believer.

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                     The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Pity of course, maybe even condescension, but probably not any contempt.
                     
                     There are theists who would show off contempt in that sort of situation.  Who would scorn the mourning atheist and accuse them of leading their loved ones to a well-deserved Hell.  Like Fred Phelps, that sort of person.
                     
                     But they're not the majority.
                     
                     Now, I'm not saying I approve.  Trying to use the death of a loved one to convert someone to a religion is encouraging them to sit down and set up shop in that "denial" stage of grief, to get them to start telling themselves that the person never really died, just went away for a while.  That doesn't seem like a good plan for the long-term.
                     
                     But with events surrounding this intense kind of grief I don't think it serves much good to pick fights and accuse people who are trying to help of ill-intent, even if they're not really helping.

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                  Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  No, but it's the same imposition of one's belief set on others.  What makes it so repugnant is that comfort can and could have been given without conversion.  Restraint on the latter in favor of humane and genuine solace.  Having a child die is an earth-moving experience.  Having a faith/spiritual shift is an earth-moving experience.  Imposing the latter upon someone while they are in the throes of the former is reprehensible.  Just a hug, and listening wasn't enough. Had to bring them into the flock too. 
                  
                  Anyway, I begin to repeat myself.  My point is made.  I'm certain we'll never agree on this.

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                     The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     The key is that the theist in question doesn't understand this point.  Whether we're literally talking about the OP or a hypothetical theist.
                     
                     In this situation they view their god like a medicine for psychological injuries.  Oh someone is badly hurt: here, have some medicine.
                     
                     
                     You understand that the only thing of value they've really offered is comfort and human contact, but that there's manipulation unnecessarily tacked on.  To them, their god is where comfort comes from, this is how comfort works.  They think it's they only way they can offer comfort, probably don't know how to offer it without the extra bits.
                     
                     By way of analogy:  If you're offered anesthetic for a serious physical injury, it's not an attack on you in a moment of weakness, its someone trying to offer you the best reprieve from your pain they know how to give.  There is an implication there that they are asking you to count on human knowledge of neurology, chemistry, and general scientific understanding.  They are asking you to believe morphine is real.
                     
                     The only difference is that morphine is real.
                     
                     If some well-meaning but ill-informed doctor offered you a drug meant to alleviate your pain that really had no effect, but it was widely held to be effective and he honestly believed it was, you wouldn't accuse him of trying to advance the agenda of the company that manufactures the drug.  You'd be rightly upset with his incompetence, you might like to sue him for malpractice, but you wouldn't accuse of him actual malice.

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                        Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        That could be said equally of applying leeches.
                        
                        And if someone's world view and grasp of humanity is so limited that they are incapable of offering support outside of their singular faith to the exclusion of any other belief set, then they are not intellectually, much less spiritually, qualified to give succor.

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                        Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I think you need to take a look at this person's behavior outside of this thread, instead of applying a broad brush here. Certainly - there are many who fit your idealistic version. I could apply your "benefit of the doubt" to some people, and there are certain people who might have posted this thread whom I would have been very supportive of.
                        
                        I can see through the glass darkly and look to the intentions.
                        
                        Read what this person writes in their hubs and visit some of the discussions it has on other hubs.
                        
                        Wander through a few forum threads and ask yourself what the underlying intention is.

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                           The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Oh, Sooner definitely worships a monstrous god and uses his god to justify all kinds of stupid, dangerous, and/or hateful ideas.
                           
                           I don't think this in particular is an example, though, and I don't think it does any good to allow other past examples to convince us it is.
                           
                           On the contrary, their reaction to the situation seems to be a deviation from their normally expressed viewpoint, which I think you pointed out on the first page.

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                              Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              Well - unlike the religionists I do not pretend to not judge while doing so underhandedly. I see through to the heart of this one and I suspect there was no young man.
                              
                              Even now he boasts pridefully at "leading people to the foot of the cross."
                              
                              That is what this thread was all about from the first word.

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                                 The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 Ah, well, that's another matter entirely.
                                 
                                 Wouldn't be the first time, I suppose.

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         Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Possibly the most offensive passive/aggressive attack I have ever seen and a strong reminder to me that religion and religionists  prey almost exclusively on the weak and beaten down in an effort to be more than they are.
         
         Sad really, but a necessary reminder. Just remember - the OP is hidden behind a user name, has never before asked for counsel from his "enemies" and is quite prepared to take advantage of a friends grief and share it in public to push his agenda.
         
         I am no longer angry after recieving several dozen emails when I was banned for saying what I thought of this person.
         
         Still - I have seen him elsewhere touting god's word as being able to prove why homosexuality is wrong and any homosexuals with AIDS should be killed, plus the fact that god is against inter racial marriage.
         
         So - there is something to be learned here. For me - validation really and a reminder that Christians desire above all else to be like Christ.
                                    A martyr
         
         No matter the cost or the conflict caused. This is what they desire. Martyrdom in the face of unwarranted,  "attacks".

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   earnestshubposted 14 years ago

   Well stated, both of you. I have seen this sort of self serving christian love before. I worked with a religionist like this once, and what he justified would make your hair curl.
   Very sick stuff.

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      tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Agreeing with shades & MK

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   ddsurfscaposted 14 years ago

   It is not yours to question.  The thing is that you were asked and so you should -- maybe something along the lines of Dear Lord, Only you know the heart of people, and the heart and soul of this young boy, may he be given over to You at this time, and may his passing be the means of the teaching for his family and friends who asked me to talk to You in his behave. Give them the comfort of knowing he is with You...etc.
   That would be the only thing I can think of to say that might be appropriate.
   You cannot judge the heart of the boy at the time of his death, so you do not know if he accepted the lord or not, nor should you question this at all.

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    tantrumposted 14 years ago

    then, this thread shouldn't have been post in the first place.

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    The Paulposted 14 years ago

    But no one claims the doctors who applied leeches did it because they were callous, or because it served an agenda, or because they wanted to take advantage of injured people.  All we accuse them of is ignorance.

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    sooner than laterposted 14 years ago

    A note to everyone. The funeral has passed nearly two weeks ago now. It was very sad as are all funerals, but this young man went too soon. I thank many of you for your advice. This was the first time I have been asked to lead a eulogy. I did gather useful opinions on what to say. Thanks again. I know many of you offered your prayers as well and that makes my heart lift. 
    
    The Glory of God has been revealed to me time and time agian. No matter how tragic the event was, the fact is two of my very good friends have asked to be led to the foot of the cross. I can't say that this event is what triggered their yearning for the truth, but I am convinced that it escalated their need for answers. And so, all the millions of inhabitants of the Kingdom of God rejoice as two of Gods children will be coming home. I will be the first to introduce them to you on that glorious day of raising.
    
    To the mockers and wicked. I am tired of arguing with you. Your hearts are cold and you spit out the most hateful words I have ever seen. I have watched time and time again as many try to reason with you and speak with kind words. For me it is a sign of the times and there are many scriptures that tell about your coming, so I guess I should not be surprised. When did your hearts fail to heed the Holy Spirits calling. He calls us all in an undeniable way, so I know you remember a time of wonder and the time of calling. I pray for you today. I pray that you soften your hearts and listen Him. Your time for laughing is nearing its end. He is not against you He is for you. 
    
    In the morning I am leaving for Costa Rica as stated before. I may or may not check in time to time, but I hope that everyone has an amazing life. There are greater calls than arguing with the mockers. I won't miss the stupid and snide smiley faces, I'm going to give real smileys where people need them. God bless you all. Sooner.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago

    Cya Sooner. I hope that the simple life in Costa Rica will allow you to learn to be less condescending and judgmental eventually.
    
    I am saddened that you take such a potentially wonderful idea and turn it into the hate filled martyrdom that many seem to do.
    
    But that is the problem with believing what you believe.
    
    ciao

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    Diskobolosposted 14 years ago

    Seriously, I sometimes wonder where are all these super religious people coming from, I never meet them in RL, it seems like they exist only on internet forums.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Are other forums the same? This is the only one I hang out on. I have met a few of these guys in RL though. Kansas city was an eye opener.

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          Diskobolosposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Honestly, this whole religious craziness is mostly present in America, in Europe nobody really cares about it. Although, everyone that I was living and hanging out with the last 5 years in the U.S. was in 20's and no one gave a fucck about all that, people were more interested to go out, have fun and enjoy their lives and pursue their careers.

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             Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Europe is probably exhausted and their fingers and toes are all pruned up from having soaked in blood for the bulk of two thousand years fighting over religion.  We're just getting started over here.  Lot's of hate and death to look forward to.

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