What would you say to a torture victim?

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   Friendlywordposted 14 years ago

   Would you tell a Nazi hunter to get over it and move on?  Would you tell a innocent torture victim from Iraq to "dont worry be Happy!"   Would you tell torture victims that will never be able to face their torturer, or getting any kind of justice for their torturer,  that they are living in the past, and they should get a life?  Worst of all; do you tell someone that is terribly scarred and still suffering physical pain, Mental anger, and rage; to just give it all to God!  Or, I'll Pray for you?
   
   Do you think these comments are in any way helpful to the victim,(and most of the people who say these things are trying to be helpful) or do you think you can say something that will actually bring a little peace to these victims?
   
   Desprately seeking an answer to these questions.

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Could you be more specific? What are you getting at?

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         Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I wish I could, but No, I cant be more specific. I can tell you I'm not focused on any specific event in our recent history if that's what you're talking about.
         
         Depending on your age; you've lived through a period in time where people were tortured and were unable to get any kind of justice from the people that tortured them. 
         
         Do you have any words of real comfort to offer these people? Can you think of something that would bring them peace instead of more hurt?

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      TheGlassSpiderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      Often there can be no words. If in person, I find it best to recognize and say that I cannot imagine what it must have been like to go through such a thing, that nothing I can say could ever make it better...BUT I can be here to listen, to give a hug, to hold a hand, and do my best to empathize.
      
      Also, I have found that if I live long enough, negative things/tragedies tend to have some sort of lesson or valuable meaning later after some healing has occurred. I might not mention this to a person who was suffering with something like that because I wouldn't want to minimize their pain, but I do believe it is often the case. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger.

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      cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      no i don't think comments like that are helpful. obviously no one has been through that so they can't even imagine what it must be like. all i could say if i knew someone like that would be 'words are meaningless but i am here for you in any way that i can be'

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         Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you Cosette.

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            cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            

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               Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               KISS KISS

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      tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      What would you say to a torture victim?
      
      
      'If you need help, if you want to speak  about it, you know where to find me.'

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         Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you My Love!

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      Justine76posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      are these comments helpful...no.
      do I know the right thing to say? NO
      Do I care....yes.
      I would silently let them cry, and tell them its not thier fault.

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   Friendlywordposted 14 years ago

   None of these comments help.  They only hurt.  Although it may be unintentional; it is insensitive and cruel to say these things.

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Ok, and? You seem to be reffering to something specific but it's not clear what.

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   Cagsilposted 14 years ago

   I find your specific use of certain words to be demeaning to people's understanding of the english language.
   
   First off, your questions-
   
   Would you tell a Nazi hunter to get over it and move on? This question is worded ridiculously. A NAZI hunter? Is that some new slogan just you get to use? There are no Nazi hunters. No one hunts Nazis' to begin with. It's no longer a useful trade.
   
   Would you tell an innocent torture victim from Iraq to "don't worry be happy!"? Again, this is a question and is worded ridiculously. An innocent torture victim? To be quite honest I find your choice of words here disheartening. "Innocent?" by whose view are you talking about? "Torture" all people are victims of torture in some way or another. And, the last "victim", if you didn't want to be or live in a War zone, how can you be a victim, should choose to stay, but not fight?
   
   Ignorance is blindful to logic and reasoning, but usually is over-ruled by common-sense and self-survival.
   
   Would you tell torture victims that will never be able to face their torturer, or getting any kind of justice for their torturer? This must have been a typo on your part. People do not seek justice for their torturers, they seek their death, and that's not justice, that's revenge.
   
   As for them living in the past and should get a life? Hopefully they already moved on to another life in some new area where their torturer isn't likely to be. So, time will heal their wounds, once they accept that it happened and is over with, then moves on.
   
   Worse of all? This had no reason for being at the beginning of your sentence.
   
   Do you tell someone that is terrbily scarred and still suffering physical pain, mental anger, and rage, to just give it all to God! Or, I'll pray for you?
   
   This single statement is a sad attempt at mocking the religious faithful. To be completely honest, since I am not in a position to offer advice directly to this person and I cannot imagine what they have been through. I would only offer words of less satisfaction, which would bring no comfort and likely more pain.
   
   Would it be good for them to hear what I have to say? Is open to interpretation to whomever want to, because even if I don't want it to happen, it's going to happen anyways.
   
   However, I could only advise them they must accept the fact that it did indeed happen. Then, once they have been able to find to accept it, they should use it as an outlet for their expression, so as to help others who are in the same shoes.
   
   Learn from what happened and move forward.

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      Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for the English Lesson. I needed that. Then you came up with the answer I was looking for."To be completely honest, since I am not in a position to offer advice directly to this person and I cannot imagine what they have been through. I would only offer words of less satisfaction, which would bring no comfort and likely more pain"
      
      To bad you did'nt shut up at that point."Learn from what happened and move forward" Now, you sound like someone who needs a lesson in reading comprehension.

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         Christopher Floydposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         And now the teeth come out and the torture begins...  I'm done with this thread, and this writer.

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            Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I started out looking for kinder responses to broken people.

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               Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

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                  Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm not looking to sink my teeth into anybody, But, when somebody starts a comment with "Fist of all!" I dont think that person wants to see anything but teeth.  It is best you take that attitude to another forum topic.  I didn't ask for an argument.

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                     Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I did it!  I wrote it all down.
                     I got a pretty good idea of the reception my hub would get, and, I wrote the hub anyway!  Someone called me a Cry Baby. Someone here said I should "talk to someone". Some wouldn't accept the fact that things like this happen in this Country. I really liked the Cry Baby statement. I made it a part of my story. Because it clearly shows just what people can do to other people.
                     
                     Everyone that made a comment in this forum helped me to write my story.  I hope I addressed everyones comments good and bad.
                     And it all helped me to finally get it all out, and maybe even get some type of justice and move on.  Thank you all, again, for your ideas and opinions.
                     
                     http://hubpages.com/hub/Cry-Baby-Torture-Victims

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         Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Obviously, you know nothing about LIFE. And you've should have kept your mouth shut in the first place, if you planned on not taking the words at face value.
         
         You're pitiful. Enjoy.
         
         Just in case, you haven't LEARNED your lesson, little boy?
         
         You DO NOT dwell on negative, regardless of where or what or how or when it happened. You LEARN from it and MOVE on.
         
         Take your attitude and stick where the sun don't shine. I offer something of value, and you step on it like it didn't mean anything.
         
         How is your moral character? Non-existent I see.

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            Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Whoa! Easy folks. Getting a little heated in here...
            
            Nothing to be gained by this kind of vitriol.

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               Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Most people what to say the right thing and help someone feel better.  some want to show thier arroganece  and cruelty.  Like a juvenile!

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   Christopher Floydposted 14 years ago

   I can't.
   
   But I'm not sure I understand the point either.  I think Cagsil said it best, so I'll stop typing now.

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   wyanjenposted 14 years ago

   (side-stepping the flame war)
   
   Saying any of the empty sentiments you listed are worse than saying nothing at all.
   I've been through a traumatic event, not something that was inflicted on me, but after it was over these empty sayings hurt me a lot.
   
   Folks who said them had NO understanding of what it was like. I would say to myself, "they mean well" but that didn't help.
   For somebody who knew nothing about what happened try to "make it all better" for me was insulting at best.
   
   So... I would not say anything, but I would be there with a shoulder to cry on.
   
   If it was a person I know well though, I would say: It's very difficult to find comfort, but if you can find strength from it, you'll be OK.
   
   I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but it's how I understood your question.
   

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   Cagsilposted 14 years ago

   You're and I won't be back to it.

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   Friendlywordposted 14 years ago

   Thank you all for your responses. I needed a idea of what to expect if I ever decided to talk about what happened to me.

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   ledefensetechposted 14 years ago

   That really depends on the individual, Friendly.  Some people have the capacity to let go of the wrongs done to them and rebuild their lives.  Other's cannot or choose not to do so.  The first is a desirable thing, which most people would agree is the right thing to do.  Likewise the latter choice is, rightly, seen as a pretty good way to destroy yourself.  But only the individual can choose to do that.  Victor Frankel was one such man.  You might want to try reading some of his works, if this topic has you as riled up as I think it does.  You also might find the story of Maximmilan Kolb something to reflect on.  Personally I'm humbled by his actions.  In his place, I know I couldn't act as he did and am ashamed of that knowledge.
   
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe
   
   Say what you want about Christians, but it's hard to argue against the faith of a man who truly believed the words of a carpenter, who spoke so long ago on the banks of the Galilee.

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      Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Before I check out the two people you name here; I want to thank you, Spidey, and Wayanjen for taking the time to use your Education, and Experience to form a thougthful and helpful response.

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         TheGlassSpiderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Friendly, you're welcome. Anytime. And I just want you to know that if you ever need someone to listen, you can feel free to drop me a line.

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   Pani Midnyte Odinposted 14 years ago

   I'm not good at knowing what to say when someone has gone through something hard. I guess I would just try to treat them like I would treat anyone else. I think someone who had gone through that would just want to return to a sense of normalcy anyway. I know that, when I went through what I went through, I just wanted people to forget about it and stop talking about it because it made me feel like a freak when all I wanted was to go back to as normal a life as possible.

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    Madame Xposted 14 years ago

    Yes, read Frankl's book "Man's Search for Meaning". It will answer a lot of your questions and then some. An extraordinary and compassionate man.
    
    (spelled Viktor Frankl - sorry tech)

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    ledefensetechposted 14 years ago

    I knew that, it just slipped past the old typo editor.  Thanks for the correction.

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       Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Thank you, and God Bless you Defense!

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    qwarkposted 14 years ago

    Friendly:
    Depends on what they were being tortured for.
    If we could have "tortured" someone and gotten info about 9/11 before it happened and kept it from happening, I'd be tickled pink that the "monster" was tortured.
    Don't you think that "what" the tortured was being tortured for should be considered?
    I'm for torture if the possiblity of innocent lives can be saved is the reason.
    Now Torture for the sake of torture? Of course not! That would only happen by a psychopathic demon. Of course the tortured in these cases should be pitied and helped.

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       Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I was tortured for pleasure. And the psychopathic demon was actually a Doctor in an emergency room who was tired of seeing Crack Addicts come into his Hospital. (I didn't even know what Crack was at that time)And this Psychopathic demon/Doctor had help covering up what he did because "he was just having a bad day".

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       TheGlassSpiderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       No, I do not think that there is ever a reason for torture. The end does not justify the means. Torturing a potential criminal makes one just as much of a criminal as the person you've tortured.
       
       Are you aware that often the victims of torture will admit to/confess things that ARE NOT TRUE as a result of torture?

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          TheGlassSpiderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

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    ledefensetechposted 14 years ago

    How do you tell the difference between the guilty and innocent quark?  Sure it's easy after the fact, but how do you know for sure beforehand?

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       qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       led:
       Guilty or innocent?
       Who cares? If almost 3000 innocents can be saved...and the tortured knows how, when, why , when etc and he/she won't say?..tough baby, on the table with ya and let the screws grind away...!

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          ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I would imagine the families of the innocents you'd torture and slaughter would have something to say about the issue.  Ever wonder why in history a victorious conqueror would extirpate the previous elites root and branch?  In order to end an incipient threat that could arise in the future.  Doing things your way would multiply our enemies like weeds. 
          
          Also how do you know you're getting the good stuff?  It's a well known fact that under torture, people will admit to anything under torture.  So now you have a situation where you can't be sure that you have the real story.  Who wins in that scenario?

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             qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Led:
             Yer naivety precedes you.
             Why would one torture another if one didn't know, beyond doubt, that torture may work?
             I would use any method available to me, to make anyone whom I KNOW has the information needed to save innocent lives, spew it forth!

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          Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          PLEASE TELL ME YOU ARE NOT AN AMERICAN CITIZEN!

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             qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Friendly:
             Born and raised a very proud American.
             There are good reasons that torture should be used.
             Your case, certainly, was not one of them.

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                Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I cant say I'm being reasonable. But, I just cant agree with you. And people that can think alot more clearly than I can, dont agree with you.

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                   qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Friendly:
                   Thats what makes this country so wonderful!
                   You can think freely and express your thoughts in the same manner.
                   Of course there are differences of opinion.It would be a very dull world if there weren't
                   I am one who, for the right reason and knowingly, with the right person, supports the use of torture if it can offer possiblities that would save the lives of innocent human beings.
                   But then, I'm one who could pull the switch that would light up an electric chair with a convicted murderer sitting in it...and then go out and have a beer with friends.
                   Call me what you will, but where innocent human life hangs in the balance, I will do whatever it takes to keep them from being killed.
                   No doubt about it.
                   In fact if what you tell us is true, your Dr, should be treated in  the same manner that he treated you!

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                      Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      What happened to me was worst than dying. And I wouldn't wish it even on that Doctor. I understand why you say there's a reason for torture, you haven't been tortured yet. And I dont think you realize just how common it would become if your type of thinking were to prevail in this Country.

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                         qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         Friendly:
                         That is absolutely wrong!
                         I have not been tortured yet because there is no reason to torture me.
                         Logic would dictate that if one's intent is to save innocent lives, then one should do whatever is necessary to do ones job effectively.
                         Logic and reason and purpose would be the only guidelines used if someone were to be tortured. It wouldn't be "passion" or "entertainment."
                         That was your case. The Dr. was, seemingly, a psychopath.
                         He should be removed from society. He is insane. Put him away after torturing the A**hole like he did you.
                         I am not a "Taliban" lol...no religion, passion or entertainment would be involved in "torture." Only logic and reason for the cause of human security.

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                            Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            I didn't say I was right. I'm saying even if you are right; I cant agree with you. And I cant give you a logical reason for me not wanting anyone to be tortured. Another Doctor watch this Doctor "teach me a lesson" and other Doctors and Nurses covered it up for him.  THEY FELT JUSTIFIED!!! I have no reason when it comes to this subject. It's not right, ever, for any reason.!

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                               Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                               "In fact if what you tell us is true"
                               That hurt Quark!
                               How do you put pictures in these replies?

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                                  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                  Use img in brackets with the url of the picture in the middle.  I'd use a flickr or Photobucket account.  Personally I prefer Photobucket.  They'll actually give you the code you need to put it in a forum post.

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    Friendlywordposted 14 years ago

    For the last five years I have tried to live by the good intentioned advice people try to give me. But hearing the same old lines over and over again only made my anger and rage worst. On top of that; I never talked to anyone about it. That  was not working for me. So, I figured, if I was going to get better, I needed some answers that would actually help me; I needed some fresh ideas. I knew I would get some honest answers from you. You all helped me alot. Even you, Cagsil.

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       cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       have you considered writing a hub about it? that can be very helpful. it is essentially championing yourself, and can be very healing. (if you do, make sure you moderate your comments)

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          Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          That's what I intend to do. I was to scared to talk about it until now. I'm feeling my way through this. I thought my anger would only get worse. I actually feel a little better.  It's going to be hard to talk about the details.  I was tortured for pleasure, not out of anger or a need for information.

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    cosetteposted 14 years ago

    you're actually advocating torture? wow

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       qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Cosette"
       You bet'cha.
       But all ducks must be in a row...understand?

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    cosetteposted 14 years ago

    not really but that's ok.

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    wyanjenposted 14 years ago

    wow.
    
    Is there someone you can reach out to Friendly?
    You say you have never talked about it. I don't know what it is you are referring to, but clearly you are struggling.
    
    I mentioned that I went through a tough time. A couple years after the fact, when I was sent to a psychologist, I had a lot of dread because frankly I couldn't remember much of what happened. Once we met a couple times, I realized that he wasn't pressing me for the details anyway. We would sometimes just spend the entire session talking about hockey.
    
    This doctor is the single only person who has been able to get me back on my feet.
    You need to seek out somebody that you can talk to Friendly.
    
    Take care

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       Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The people that are closest to me know about it and are too horrified to believe it. A Doctor tortured me for pleasure.  People can not accept that can happen. Doctors just dont do things like that! A lot of bad things happened  to me before and after this torture. But nothing good or bad matters to me, since I was tortured by someone who was suppose to help me.

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          ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          It doesn't help that the people closest to you don't believe you.  Damn, Friendly, that sounds like some of the kids I used to work with.  It's pure hell when someone you count on for help abuses you and destroys  your trust.  It's even worse when those closest to you don't believe it. 
          
          What I started to say was that it doesn't matter.  But that's not exactly what I mean.  You might find Reality Therapy by Dr. Robert Glasser to be of some help.  He wrote back in the 1960's and had an issue with therapists constantly going over things that had happened in the past over and over.  One of the things he talked about in his book was how the past was the past and unalterable.  What he said was changeable and what he worked on with his patients was the idea that you could change your reaction to how you dealt with things that happened in the past.  That's something else you'll get from Frankl.  The important thing is to focus on the things that you can change, not obsess over the things that are impossible to change.
          
          Frankl wrote about how he was in a death camp and he had sort of an epiphany and out of body experience.  He said he saw himself outside his body and was watching him and his guards.  He realized that no matter what the guards did to him, they could not change anything about who Victor Frankl was, they could lock him up, but his mind was and always would be his own.  That realization gave him the ability to not only create a life after the camps, but gave him the strength to forgive. 
          
          Another thing to consider is that as filled with rage and anger as you understandably are, you survived.  Despite everything that was done to you, you kept on going.  It's entirely possible that other people, having gone through the same thing, would have just gone away.  You didn't and you're still here.  That's no mean feat. 
          
          Finally you might find Zen to be an effective aid to help with emotional control.  When I was younger I used to suffer from panic attacks.  It was so bad that I'd not be able to leave a 10 mile radius of my home without suffering an attack.  Keeping that stuff from my friends and family didn't help matters any.  I started practicing some Zen techniques as I began studying martial arts and found that over time the severity of my attacks lessened to the point that they went away.  It's been almost 15 years since I've had a panic attack.  Using all three sources I've outlined might help you find some peace and perhaps a way to integrate what happened to you in such a way that you can be free of what's been holding you back all this time.  Good luck man, and I think I speak for many of us when I say that we're here for you.

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             Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Reading about what Frankl went through, the three stages he talked about is just what I'm going through.  I knew this was the right place for me to get the information I need to get better. Thank you for your help. I really dont have the words. I can say you did a really good thing for somebody today. God Bless You!

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                ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                It's nothing man.  I've always believed that in the end we're all brothers and sisters and need to treat each other as such.  Good luck and God bless.

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    cosetteposted 14 years ago

    well follow your heart and do what feels right for you. to moderate comments, edit the comment capsule at the bottom and choose one or both of these options. this will spare you some bad feelings if someone posts something just to be mean or hurtful.
    
    Comments must be approved before they appear
    Only signed-in users may post comments
    
    
    
    good luck ok?

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       Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Actually arguing from a distance like this is a very good way for me.  It helps me to get rid of some of this anger. And I was banned three times. So I dont like the idea of editing someone's comments.  Besises, what would Cagsil do then? He argues with me like I'm his Boyfriend. I think he would be very insulted if I edit his comments!

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    Pearldiverposted 14 years ago

    What would I say To A Torture Victim?
    
    "How Do ya Feel About That Eh?"
    or
    "Ok... Time to put your Nuts on the Line Mate!" ...zzzZZZZAP.
    
    What's the point in torturing them if you can't enjoy it?

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    ledefensetechposted 14 years ago

    I know why you oppose torture in any way, shape or form and it's for a very humane reason.  No matter what anyone else has done, you want to spare them the pain and suffering you went through.  That's a very human thing to do. 
    
    If it were me, I'd not rest until I destroyed everyone involved by whatever means were at my disposal.  The reason I'm humbled by people like Kolb and Frankel is because they are better human beings than I am.  I'd destroy them even knowing full well I'd be destroying myself in the process.  In my more introspective moments, that knowledge bothers me.  But I know that's how I'd react.

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       Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       No you wouldn't...You cant act against your true nature. If you never killed anyone before; you wouldn't kill anyone if they hurt you.  If you had the means to kill them while they were hurting you; of course you could kill someone.  But not after the fact.

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          ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I'm not too sure about that.  For me torture is beyond the pale.  Moreso torture that is used only for the sake of tormenting another person.  I reserve very harsh judgement for people who do such things and don't really consider them human beings.  That's a very dangerous thought to have especially considering the emotional turmoil I'd suffer through after something like torture.

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             Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             The initial shock prevents you from reacting.  By the time the anger kicks in your own sense of Right and Wrong prevents you from acting on your desire to kill the person that tortured you.

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                Alya roseposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I agree. if it were me I'd want to rip him apart and have the satisfaction of hearing him scream like he made you.

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    ledefensetechposted 14 years ago

    Awesome man.  I'll give it a read, and I'll probably spend quite a bit of time thinking before I comment.

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