quid pro quo

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   something for something is the definition.
   
   Dear believer, this forum is opened to enable you to both share and learn about true covenant and those experiences of others in relation to it.
   
   Using your understanding &/or knowledge of covenant, present any instance where Y`shua gave you something and then what you gave him in return according to the promises of the full covenant.
   
   { please no chapter/verse quoting, in your own words or paraphrased is fine }

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      Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      He offered me salvation and I gave Him my heart.
      
      I know, I know, you're surely wanting a much more studied, eloquent response, but that's my answer.

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   WriteAngledposted 14 years ago

   I challenge your statement that the only covenant possible is with YHWH. YHWH fits with the second sphere (Chokmah) of the Tree of Life. There are many other god forms corresponding to that and other spheres.

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      Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Because he believes in a creator.

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         Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         been a small moment the Cagsil.
         would enjoy listening to your information on covenant.
         
         unrelated: did you check out the lulu self publishing, seriously, it is the way to go.

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   how so?
   Sephirot is the seat of mercy -also the covering of the Ark of the covenant. Therefore the totality of the covenant - Grace.
   
   Grace is the source of covenant: before, within and without law, thus, Y`shua Moshiach.

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      WriteAngledposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      YHWH belongs to Chokmah, together with Zeus, Jupiter and others. The great Goddess ties in with Binah. The golden child and killed and risen saviours belong to Tiphareth: Nefertum, Horus, Osiris, Christ.

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         earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         This is to my understanding true in it's entirety.

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            Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            earnest,
            
            In fact the Hebrew Deity has little or anything to do with nor relationship with the other assumed entities. Yes, according to Talmud -and the element of Kabbalah within- there are many names attached to Y`shua (YHWH is one example), but still the same Entity.
            
            Hebrews assigned titles to each instance of life within the Adamic, Abram, Mosaic agreements.

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   Seems a lot of intermixing between Greek, Hindi, Kabbalah.
   I don't see the connection between those and covenant.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Dear me. You are not aware of the roots of your ridiculous belief in a creator? Shame on you, 17 days. This bribery of which you speak does not work the way you think it does. If it ain't written, it ain't so, sweetie pie. Y'all don't get to make them up as you go. Surely you have worked this out by the knowledge the AWESOME CREATOR! placed in your head?
      
      No? ...

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   TheGlassSpiderposted 14 years ago

   The tree is a universal paradigm--a sort of cosmic filing cabinet (in a way). The patterns of everything in the universe fit on it. All the ancient stories/pantheons point to the same truth...This is why they overlap/echo on the tree.

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   WriteAngledposted 14 years ago

   I see covenant as signifying a pact between deity and humanity. This is present in many past and present religious beliefs.
   
   And yes, I agree with GlassSpider, the tree is a cosmic filing cabinet that enables us to see the parallels between spiritual concepts from all regions and times.

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   hey Spider, this I am familiar with.
   The Tree of Life is part of the Adamic covenant.
   I am trying to see WriteAngled's point.

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      TheGlassSpiderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Twenty-One...I didn't know if you were familiar or not...Not trying to be condescending
      
      If I may, I think WriteAngled is suggesting that since there is more than one archetype, there can be more than one kind of covenant. Since many deities exist upon the tree, there can be multiple promises...Of course, from a Kabbalistic perspective, they are all just different faces of the same thing--so ultimately I suppose it's a matter of where one finds themself in terms of the paths.

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   that is what i was thinking.
   i should have better explained the forum opening statement, to clarify. jeje.
   
   :: how has the Adamic covenant fulfilled given you
   and what have you given in return ::

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      WriteAngledposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Adamic....
      
      Adam Kadmon?

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         Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         not so much. more like adam (collective humanity). jeje.
         only because the name/title suggests all humanity v. a single heavenly man.

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   ps, WriteAngeled, you seem well versed in Kabbalah. Very cool.
   Deborah Sexton is as well.
   Having read a few of her hubs is -for lack of terminology- enlightening. I know little about Kabbalah practices.

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      WriteAngledposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Well, there are different systems here. I am not a practising Jewish Kabbalist and don't know whether Deborah is or not.
      
      I use the concepts within a general Western esoteric viewpoint. Some refer to this as Western Qabala to distinguish it from the Judaistic approach.
      
      That is not to say that I denigrate Judaistic Kabbalah. The Judaistic Kabbalah, in my understanding, sees the spheres as diverse emanations of the many names of YHWH.
      
      Western Qabala takes a broader view, seeing the Tree, as GlassSpider said, as a filing cabinet to help see the correspondences between diverse spiritual systems. Within this view, I see YHWH as one concept on the Tree rather than as the overriding source. In my understanding, the Source as such is unknowable in our present condition, which also fits with some concepts of Eastern mysticism. We grasp elements of the Source in the diverse ways it manifests. These are interpreted in a multitude of ways, which are dependent on our personal and cultural outlook.
      
      Adam Kadmon is humanity in its highest form, which is a goal to which we all strive. The covenant between humanity and deity has been voiced in more than one religious system.
      
      The descent of the Tree is the path by which we enter into manifestation in the physical plane. Our task is to ascend the Tree once more to reach union with the unknowable. On this journey, we help in the task of creation and also help to raise all of creation to the highest plane. To me, the covenant is the promise that we will achieve this task, although perhaps in more than one lifetime.

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    Paper Wolfposted 14 years ago

    Technically as you describe a covenant where one party receives something and the other gives something in return - is less a covenant than an exchange. A covenant is normally a unilateral agreement where the stronger party establishes all of the agreement and the weaker party can either accept or reject. There may be benefits to accepting and/or consequences to rejecting. But either decision does not negate the covenant on the stronger parties side.
    
    An agreement where two equal parties agree quid pro quo or "something for something" if one side lets you down, the other side is free. These are two different concepts. Semantics I know, but I thought I would add that. Forgive me if this is a digression.

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       Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Not at all, Wolf. Exactly one of the undertones of the thread. Because in light of the Adamic 'covenant' it was not a contract between 'God' and humanity, but -as i said- quid pro quo.
       Meaning: all things in common; complete sharing.

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    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    I am not as educated as the rest of you all..  I have no knowledge as to what name to put on it. I just know that I have a one with the God of Abraham.
       I didn't read about in a book. Call it what you want to. And I do not care how many other fruit is in what ever tree you are talking about.
       Call me selfish if ya want to... I got mine...  want some of it?   No I didn't think so.  But if you had some in your pocket you would know that it was real.
       There is nothing I can tell ya to make ya believe me so we won't talk about that.
       Wanta talk about what the scriptures actually say concerning prohesy?   No I didn't think so.
    
       That's sad.  Oh well I tried.  I'm off the hook.

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    Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

    Jerami, what was that?
    
    I am asking people to relate their covenant applications w/ those Y`shua is giving, that's all.
    Covenant is the root of the reason you and i are here today, why Y`shua manifest, etc etc.
    
    The request was tell us about the things you have given that were given to you within the agreement.

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       Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I "apologize" to all for sounding so strange. Just came in home with a headache. Totally misunderstood something, didn't stop for a minute to think about it.  OOps

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    Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

    actually, no. that is great.
    
    ps, Brenda, news has it you are considering departing from HP?

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    Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago

    Was.
    But decided to stay til I'm dead or banned.  I'm stubborn. haha
    I've determined to do some sermonizing in hubs, God willing.
    Am working on the first one.   Hopefully it will get past the non-published stage soon.
    
    
    P.S.  I do retain my womanly prerogative to change my mind at any time (on the staying part). 

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    Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

    right on.
    
    what i am trying to uncover is believers actual understanding of covenant. I was re-inspired by another Hubber to do so. Though I am not sure she is aware of it, yet.

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    Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago

    I see.
    Well, it's a good subject.
    I'm interested in reading all the responses you get!

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