Was The Holocaust Karma?

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   buddingwriterposted 15 years ago

   Personally, this is a cruel thing to say. but my husband has his head bent on it. He says that because  the Jews were the ones who crucified Christ back then, that the holocaust was karma. He is not excusing hitler for the evil he did. but insist on believing that punishment on the Jews for crucifying Christ was inevitable. What do you all think?

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      mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Life is circles in cirlcles, inside out,
      Just forever keeps me in doubt.
      
      Karma ha life.   working beyond the human comprehension.

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         SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I am with Mohit on this, in that it is beyond human comprehension...to view karma in that way is cruel and simplistic. You musn't blame the many for the acts of the few...it gets us nowhere in learning to work together for the betterment of humanity.
         
         But it can say a lot for standing individually for one's own beliefs and not going with the "herd" consciousness...we do have to be accountable and responsible for our self and our associations as well as our specific beliefs.
         
         My individual relationship with my understanding of God and Christ cannot be pigeon-holed with any one religion or philosophy; because  no one else has lived my life (lives) they can't define my relationship with, and understanding of God, better than I. Nor I, them and theirs.

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         mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Karma is just too complicated,there is karma of religion,country,friends,family etc which have an effect on you.

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      mikeq107posted 15 years agoin reply to this

      To say that the holcaust was Karma would be to say that everytime a Jewish person is killed be it in a car accendent, plane crash  or shot by some neo-natzi or the KKK, is a result  of killing Jesus is in my mind a very ilinformed statement.
      
      we live in a fallen world and bad things happen to good people...911 for example...Titanic..Crusades and that was supposedly in the name of God..I dont think so ,it was just rape and pilage.
      spanish Inq...The viking Raids on the christians of Ireland.
      
      I think if your husband was to spend more time understanding the true def ..of Gods Agape
      love.he would have a major revalation to his way of thinking and beliveing...
      
         Hope that helps...Mike :0)

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      SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      In Jesus own Words, John 10:17  Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. Noone can take His life. The Jews didn't kill Jesus nor did the Romans kill Him. He gave His life for the sins of the world.
      
      Hitler was evil and deserved to die a very painful and tormenting death. His idea to commit genocide was born of Satan himself. He served Satan and did all that he was able to extinguish the Jews. He had help also from non-Germans. Many Muslims faught with his army during that time. There is a lot that we weren't taught in school. Lots of information has been kept hidden.
      
      When was the last timne your husband got laid off from work or fired? When was the last time he hit his finger with a hammer and took the name of the Lord in vain? Is that Karma? Maybe it is just his evilness surfacing?

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         sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Really that sounds like Jesus gave his life so he would be entitled to do the same. 
         They kill me, I kill them, see how it works. 
         
         He did not give his life to save us from our sins.  He gave his life to seek revenge, and he's taking it through the ones that are following him in a very disturbing way.

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            SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Sandra, that is merely your opinion and nothing else. You have nothing to back it up at all not even a single letter. If Jesus wanted revenge, then all He would have done is said everyone die. It's that simple and easy for Him to do, but He said,ather, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

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               sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Let me explain it another way.  Jesus died for the sins you will do, via his words meaning to kill in war, or to allow innocent people to fall at the waistside during Armegdon.  Yes, Jesus must have been replying to God, to forgive them they do not know what they do,  you don't know what Jesus is doing, and he is doing it through his followers. 
               
               In the world of Jesus, it is kill or be killed.  There is no inbetween.  He is the reaper.  So yours is meerly an opinion and nothing else, same as mine because Jesus does not come to free the world of sin.  He came to completly rid the the world of it by annihillating it all together using his lowly, weak, and ignorant followers to do his dirty work. 
               
               He is giving you a chance to change it, not to keep following in the path of destruction.

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                  SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Jesus went about doing good. What He did, I do also to the best of my ability. The kingdom of God is at hand. His arms are stretched out still. No man can come to God without coming through Him.

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                  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  they do not know what they do-
                  the context here is that they failed to understand him as a God man-an enlightened  one and mistook him for just another ordinary being.
                  Repeating what I said earlier Jesus did take on the karma of many people but not of all.If he had we would be living in a much better place or maybe no place at all as everthing will seaze when everyone gains moksha,i.e every single soul gets liberation and there would have been no more Prophets after him which is not the case.
                  Jesus came to save souls and thast why he took on the karma of some  during his time and being a master he is still helping saving souls.

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         Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Sir Dent - What is your problem with Muslims?
         
         Many other people fought with the Germans during WWII
         
         Italians, Japanese, Irish to name but a few. This is what Hitler had to say on his christian beliefs:
         
         "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those (the Jews) by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited. ":
         
         Adolf Hitler 12 April 1922
         
         Sound familiar?
         
         There are many things you are apparently not taught in school. Especially when all your "knowledge" comes from the bible.
         
         Did you even go to school?

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            buddingwriterposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks for sharing this knowledge Mark. Interesting!

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            SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Have you ever known anyone who never once told a lie in their life?
            
            Just because he said lord, doesn't mean he followed Jesus. There is no pattern of his life that shows him to be a follower of Jesus. All it does is show him to have been a liar.
            
            I wonder what poor people he was talking about being plundered by the Jews? Do you know?

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               sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Just because you say lord doesn't mean you follow Jesus....

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                  SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  The Word of God says, "By their fruit you will know them."

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               Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               No, I haven't ever met anyone who has never told a lie. My point was that Hitler said some extremely similar things to the rhetoric I hear from many other "christians." As I keep saying, I do not think I have ever met a genuine christian either.
               
               He thought he was following Jesus. Or he was lying.
               
               Which do you think the people who verbally attack evolution, Islam etc are doing?
               
               The people he was talking about being plundered by the Jews were the common German citizen. Germany was in financial ruin after WWI - Inflation out of control, house values falling, banks going broke, massive unemployment. etc etc etc.
               
               Hitler arrived to turn Germany around, and one of the ways he did that was to unite the people under a common threat - the Jews. At the time he was seen as a savior. The economy boomed, mostly from chemical and weapon manufacturing. More than 50% of the GDP went into the military, young men joined the military in droves ready to serve their country and protect it against the threat of the Jews and the Polacks. Partly because it was their only chance at advancing them selves and partly through nationalist, christian pride. Science stopped being taught in schools and "Pride in Germany," and the need for "Lebensraum," was taught instead.
               
               Sound familiar?

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                  pgrundyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  You are so much more patient than I am, Mark--to explain it, as if these folks will listen or care. It all sounds chillingly familiar. But the people who most need to see the parallel don't care. They just don't care. They are convinced they are right and so they feel it gives them license to spew any kind of hateful venom they please without regard to historical context or religious consistency. I fear we are entering a very dark era of mob rule, and the mob is ugly. (It generally is.)
                  
                  With God on your side nothing is too hateful or pornographic. Convenient tactic, no?

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                     sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     The hole thing is so grossly scary.  No offense to Christians who really believe they are doing good things, but from what I see, my empericle evidence suggest that a Christain is a killer.  I said on another thread, anything associated with following Jesus is to kill or be killed.  They scare me. 
                     
                     The more I read, the more I understand, the more I sit with them trying to understand, the more I want to pee myself. 
                     
                     Pgrundy- they really don't care.  I could almost swear that they really want to see Armegedon.  I think I am gonna puke.  I really think they believe that to kill us all is the right way, and that it is God's will. 
                     
                     
                     Govna Palin scares the crap out of me.  If McCain doesn't kill over by himself than I would think she would have him knocked off just to be the one to push the easy button.  She is a liar and a theif.  How on Gods good Earth can anyone want a liar and a thief as our leader???? 
                     
                     What is wrong with some people? 
                     
                     VP and SprinklerMan, just stop it please.

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                        SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        Man cannot bring something, which is God's task to do.

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                           sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                           On the contrary- God's task is not war so where is it coming from??? Man...???

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                        Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        You made me laugh: govno means crap in Russian

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                           sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                           boy I am just riddled with coinkidinks! 

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                              Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                              LOL You had me looking up both riddle and coinkidink. I always learn something from you

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                           Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                           Believe it or not Govna Palin and the McCainiacs scare the crap out of most of the Christian world as well.
                           
                           The Christian Right is wrong if they plan on making war against Iran or possibly Russia.
                           
                           Because they plan to make war they are false prophets just the same way some Muslim leaders that call for a war against the west are false prophets and just the same as some atheists commies make war against Christians are false prophets.
                           
                           Anarchy and war is wrong, not just to most organized religions but also to most free thinking people of this world.
                           
                           Mike

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                  quotationsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  While Hitler may have come from a Catholic family, Hitler was definitely not a Christian. His religious beliefs were based on occultism and revival of pagan Germanic ritual.
                  
                  Hitler's stated goal was to create a national religion for Germany based on the old germanic gods. The SS officers swore allegiance using old norse rituals and when they married, good SS officers were married in decidedly un-Christian ceremonies which used germanic pagan symbolism. In fact, Hitler also persecuted Christian churches.

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                     Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     This came later. His opening speeches were heavily christian biased, and the one I quoted from was made in 1922. It is fair to say he used whatever rhetorical device suited his purpose at the time - including christianity.

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                        SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        So it is concluded that Hitler used Christianity to get himself elected. That's the only logical conclusion that can be made.

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                           Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                           Christianity was certainly one of the tools he used to get himself elected. And certainly some of his followers claimed to be christian. As did some of the Muslims who followed him, and the Roman Catholic Italians who followed Mussolini and joined in the war.
                           
                           I am fairly certain any Muslim would say, "Well, those were not real Muslims." Much as you are now saying that those were not real christians.
                           
                           See the problem?
                           
                           How can one call oneself a christian and yet favor war?

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                              SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                              A liar is a liar. Did you check the site I linked above? Another exceprt from the site.
                              
                              The Arab Embrace of Nazism: Husseini represents the prevalent pro-Nazi posture among the Arab/Muslim world before, during and even after the Holocaust. The Nazi-Arab connection existed even when Adolf Hitler first seized power in Germany in 1933. News of the Nazi takeover was welcomed by the Arab masses with great enthusiasm, as the first congratulatory telegrams Hitler received upon being appointed Chancellor came from the German Consul in Jerusalem, followed by those from several Arab capitals. Soon afterwards, parties that imitated the National Socialists were founded in many Arab lands, like the "Hisb-el-qaumi-el-suri" (PPS) or Social Nationalist Party in Syria. Its leader, Anton Sa'ada, styled himself the Führer of the Syrian nation, and Hitler became known as "Abu Ali" (In Egypt his name was "Muhammed Haidar"). The banner of the PPS displayed the swastika on a black-white background. Later, a Lebanese branch of the PPS – which still receives its orders from Damascus – was involved in the assassination of Lebanese President Pierre Gemayel.
                              
                              There is more but I will let you read it yourself if you want.

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                        quotationsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        You have a point there. I guess that makes him an opporunist hypocritical cynic on top of being a mass murdering mad man.

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                  SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Hitler also quoted, "Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it. Satan is the father of lies.
                  
                  His actions show that he was not a Christian. A Christian is one who follows Christ. Christ did nothing but good.
                  
                  He did indeed turn Germany around. Then he ran Germany into the ground.
                  
                  Many Muslims sided with him and their only mission was to help rid the world of Jews.
                  
                  Once in Berlin, the Mufti received an enthusiastic reception by the "Islamische Zentralinstitut" and the whole Islamic community of Germany, which welcomed him as the "Führer of the Arabic world." In an introductory speech, he called the Jews the "most fierce enemies of the Muslims" and an "ever corruptive element" in the world. Husseini soon became an honored guest of the Nazi leadership and met on several occasions with Hitler. He personally lobbied the Führer against the plan to let Jews leave Hungary, fearing they would immigrate to Palestine. He also strongly intervened when Adolf Eichman tried to cut a deal with the British government to exchange German POWs for 5000 Jewish children who also could have fled to Palestine. The Mufti's protests with the SS were successful, as the children were sent to death camps in Poland instead. One German officer noted in his journals that the Mufti would liked to have seen the Jews "preferably all killed." On a visit to Auschwitz, he reportedly admonished the guards running the gas chambers to work more diligently. Throughout the war, he appeared regularly on German radio broadcasts to the Middle East, preaching his pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic message to the Arab masses back home. Resource

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      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I think it is interesting, this odd pick-and-mix 'philosophy'. Karma is not part of the Judaeo-christian tradition, but part of the Eastern and particularly Indian tradition.
      
      This seems to me to be a typical example of hybrid 'new age' pseudo-religious garbage. The rules seem to be:
      Grab anything you like from anywhere
      Twist it to suit your personal prejudices
      Know that you are absolutely right
      Believe your own highly selective 'history'
      Brook no argument or contradiction
      
      It's fun, isn't it?

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      quotationsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Firstly, Karma is not a Christian concept. Your husband is confused and mixing his concepts.
      
      Secondly, Jews did not crucify Christ. The Roman occupation authorities and their centurion soldiers did. If there was a collective punishment decreed upon the people who crucified Christ one would expect the Romans (now Italians) to be the victims of the Holocaust.
      
      The Roman Catholic Church has for many many years publicly stated that Jews bear no guilt for the crucifiction of Christ and that this old racist concept should be buried along with the Middle Ages.
      
      Thirdly, Christ was an observant Jew Himself. During His life, he followed the teachings of Judaism as practiced at the time.
      
      Fourthly, there is no collective guilt or sin. In the same way that not all Americans are guilty for the abuses that happened at Abu Ghraib prison because they were not there and had no control over what happened, how could thousands and thousands of Jews who were not present at the crucifiction, did not incite the Romans to act, and perhaps did not even know it was happening bear any guilt, let alone their as yet unborn decendents.
      
      Fifthly, I am afraid that your husband misses the entire point of Christianity, which is forgiveness. For him to justify the mass murder of millions of men, women and children shows an amazing lack of empathy. There is no justification for what happened.
      
      I hope that he will see the light one day.

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         LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         The Last Supper is a good example of that - the meal was the Passover meal.

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      LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I think it is ludicrous. Why was, say, an 8 year old girl murdered in a concentration camp in 1944 somehow responsible for a few co-religionists nearly 2,000 years early who conspired with a handful of Romans to execute Christ?
      
      It is a ridiculously unpleasant idea.
      
      Do you think the attacks on New York on 11/09/2001 were "Karma" for Christian atrocities during the Crusades?

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   Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

   The Jews didn't kill Jesus - the Romans did.
   
   Their Karma was the Visigoths ... and the Roman Catholic Church ...
   
   Jenny

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      Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Jenny just like I mentioned in another thread, we are in a period where history is being rewritten on a daily basis.
      
      The Visigoths had nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church.  In fact the Visigoths sacked Rome in 410 AD as you can see from this site.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths
      
      Pontius Pilate was the Roman Empire's governor of Palestine at the time that Jesus was crucified.  The Roman Catholic Church has nothing to do with the Roman Empire.  In fact the Western Roman Empire collapsed in 476 as you can read from the following web site.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire 
      
      The only reason why the Catholic Church is called the Roman Catholic Church is because Peter, one of Jesus' original apostles and what we consider as the first Pope, had his mission in Rome.  That is why Rome became the seat for the Catholic Church.   The Roman Empire also crucified Peter.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter
      
      In fact the Roman Empire persecuted Christians up to the 4th century.  You might want to read about the persecution of Christians by the Roman Empire up to the time of Emperor Constantine.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians
      
      Pontius Pilate talking to the Jews of that time said this in John 19:6 "Take him you, and crucify him: for I find no cause in him."  Pontius Pilate found no fault in Jesus but even though the Jews of that day cried "crucify him, crucify him" (also in in John 19:6) the Jews of today should not held responsible.  You may want to read history of the passion of Christ in John chapters 18 and 19 or Matthew chapters 26 and 27.
      http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50018.htm
      http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50019.htm
      http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47026.htm
      http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47027.htm   
      
      Jesus died on the cross for the sins of us all.
      
      Mike

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   pgrundyposted 15 years ago

   The holocaust as Jewish karma? That is obscene. It's a mark of how low this country is sinking that someone feels free to throw out such a hateful, ignorant thing as if it were an actual thought or idea instead of just ant-semitic pornography. I've married a loser or two in my day too, so I'm not judging you--we all make mistakes, but I'd say, time to find a new husband. The one you have is a hateful ass.

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      buddingwriterposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      No comment

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   allshookupposted 15 years ago

   buddingwriter,
   
   This is a very interesting thread you have started. There a several places in the Bible which talk about the things we do and how they can bring curses upon ourselves and our families. I do believe that the Jews chose to have Him curcified but that Pilate and Herod took part also. Pilate and Herod made friends after a long period of not being so and they decided that Jesus should go free. But, the crowd of Jews at the feast wouldn't have it. They became a mob and demanded for Barabas to be set free. He was a robber. They should have stood up to the mob, but they didn't. But, if you will remember, on the cross, Jesus asked God to forgive them because the didn't know what they were doing. So, I don't know if that took away the consequences of what they had done or not. It may have. But when we do certain things we are not supposed to, it brings bad things on us and our families, sometimes for generations. To answer your question, I don't know. I'm just saying that sometimes what people do bring even worse things in the future. It says so in the Bible. And that's what I go by.
   
   I didn't see where you asked us if you should look for a new husband in the question. And I certainly don't know him well enough to call him names. My husband and I don't see eye to eye on every single thing, but I don't see that as a reason for me to break my vow to him or to God that I made when we married and leave him. But that's just me. I have never met your husband, so I am in no position to tell you to leave him. Neither is it anyone else's place on this forum to either. It is not for any of us to say anything of that nature. That is serious business and totally between you, your husband and God. All I am saying is that we should not be giving you advice on it, especially when you never even asked for it in the first place. We are not in your shoes. Only you know what goes on in your relationship and only you should be the one making that decision. I wish you and your husband the best.
   
   I don't know if I answered your question about the Jews or not. That is just the way I see it and what I get from reading the Bible.

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      pgrundyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      There's nothing interesting about this thread. It's racist garbage. Are you Jewish? Have you ever been in a death camp? No? Then maybe you're talking out your butt, no?
      
      I think that if a person doesn't want a direct answer to a direct question then don't ask the question. She asked what we think about what her husband said. I told her what I think.

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      LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I'd call it stupid and offensive myself, but each to his own.

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   allshookupposted 15 years ago

   grundy,
   A little touchy are we? lololol Well, I took it that she wanted to know how we felt about the idea her husband has and what we think of what he believes. I didn't take it that she is asking for marital advice. I did my best to answer what I felt the question was. 2 of my best friends are Jews and I talked to them before I posted. They were born Jews and are active in their beliefs. One actually used the word 'interesting' when I read the question to her. So, a Jew came up with that word. To me it's interesting because it makes you think about things that hasn't crossed alot of people's mind. She has made us think. That's a good thing. It's good to challenge people's minds.

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      Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      So did your Jewish friends think it was karma?

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   allshookupposted 15 years ago

   One doesn't believe in karma at all. They both agreed that Jesus should not have been killed. They feel He was a great Prophet and Teacher that God used. And that it was wrong to curcify them and had they been there then, they would not have been in favor of it. The other feels that even though she doesn't look at Him as the Savior of the world, He was sent to help people. And that He was good. She does believe that what goes around comes around but she's not sure at all that that's what happened in this circumatance. She said that Hitler used that as an excuse, but that Hitler sure wasn't God and had no business doing what he did. She's going to talk to her husband tonight when she gets home about it. She said that it had never much crossed her mind. She's the one who came up with the word 'interesting.' The other friend just thinks it's a bad part of history but that they are not the only one's such a travisty has happened to. That it's happend to alot of groups through history. She went on to say that if it was karma, which she doesn't subscribe to, that it's also karma that has caused it to happen to those other groups too. I respect their views and they do mine also. We never fight over God, Jesus and religion. I guess that's because we are friends and respect each other as people. Neither was really upset that this guy thought what he does. And neither was shocked. To them, it's just words. They are confident in what they believe and who they are. They don't let things like this get under their skin. And I'm glad they don't. One said that there's so much prejudice now that when people are talking about them, they are giving someone else a rest. Thanks for asking uninvited.

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      buddingwriterposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for this reply allshookup.

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   allshookupposted 15 years ago

   Your welcome. I hope it helped in some way. I hope you had a good day

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   Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

   Actually, if the Holocaust WAS karma, it wouldn't be for killing Jesus - it would be for committing genocide on the Canaanites.
   
   Jenny

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      SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Are you saying that a bunch of slave killed out a whole people who were protected in their cities and knew how to fight?

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         Inspirepubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         It was God's Will, Sir Dent, therefore they were victorious. The Canaanites were slain, every man, woman and child of them, and the Promised Land was then free to be inhabited by the Isrealites.
         
         Remember, they had over 40 years to train and rearm themselves for battle between escaping from slavery and slaughtering the inconvenient inhabitants of their Promised Land.
         
         I'm not sure that anyone told the Canaanites to prepare for war. I think they were pretty much a bunch of farmers. They certainly didn't seem to last long under the might of the Isrealites and the Will Of The Lord.
         
         Jenny

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   knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

   I may know. It is only a rumor but after world war I the german economy was like the US south after the civil war, where carpet baggers from the north went down and
   bought up the south for 10 cents on the dollar. They are
   hated to this day. Same supposedly happened in germany, the capet baggers being jews from the east,
   russia and the slavic countries. The kids in those
   devasted times after world war I, grew up and became nazis and maybe took it out on the carpet baggers.
   And germany in nazi days was and still is a christian country.

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      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, though the undercurrent of antisemitism was there before. The events you describe occurred and were very 'useful' for the nazis to cite as proof that the Jews were the cause of all ills.

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    viralprospectorposted 15 years ago

    You know, it is really funny to me how Hubpages works (or fails to). When an agnostic says ourtrageous, disgusting filth about Chrisitans, all the anti Chrisitans applaud or sit silently. If a Christian so much as defends him/herself, all the anti Christians go nuts against that Christian, call the Hub police and call that Christian every foul name they can think of, even threaten him/her.
    
    However, I am yet to see the first instance where even one anti Christian tells some foul mouthed anti Christian to shut their keyboard down. Every anti Christian should be absolutely appalled by the work of a couple of "ladies" on this thread and almost every other one that they participate in.
    
    There are interesting dialogues possible with intelligent atheists. Many of us participate in them all over the web. If a couple of the "members" would not be som nasty, we could get somewhere on Hubpages, too. Most Christians feel that the Bible commands Christians to shut up and turn the other cheek. Well, that is not what the Bible says. The Bible says that we are either for Him or against Him. Well, for one, I am FOR Him. Yes, Mark, shouting - .
    
    Nazism was about taking convenient scriptures and popular sayings from all religions. In that way, they masquearded as the friend to all.
    
    He said, on April 7, 1933, "Nothing will prevent me from eradicating totally, root and branch, all Christianity in Germany." Anyone know who said that? Hint Adolph Hitler became fuhrer of Germany in 1933.

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       Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Generalising like this isn't really helping a lot. Probably at least a quarter of the people I know are Christians who get on with their lives and offend or attack no-one. While I don't share their beliefs, I don't interfere with them either. But when people start insisting that if I don't share their precise belief system I shall burn forever in hell, well, I think that's pretty obnoxious. It's a threat, wouldn't you agree? And when they go on to tell me that they love me and are only trying to save me, I'm afraid I simply don't believe them. Because they have all the appearance of relishing the prospect of my torment. And that's pretty sick.
       
       There's a difference between being anti something and simply not being pro it. I have usually found that the large number of decent Christians who know me accept that I am not one of their number, but bear them no malice. However there are some out there who insist you're either with Jesus or against him. That is stupid. It is too simplistic to be worthy of consideration, especially when they clearly mean their unique version of Jesus. A version, I need hardly add, that would not be recognised by most of his followers.

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    gamergirlposted 15 years ago

    All quotes from Mein Kampf - the 1925 manifesto of perhaps insane, definitely criminal, thankfully never forgotten Adolf Hitler.
    
    As for a great catastrophe such as the Holocaust being regarded as any sort of karmic backlash - to that I say nothing, because to give it the dignity of a true response would also be to curse all over these forums and to be honest, I'd rather not judge someone based on their most recent idiotic statement.

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    gwendymomposted 15 years ago

    I beleive that Karma effects the person, not a whole group. This is the definition from wikipedia.Just thought I would throw that in here. This what I believe and just wanted to share.
    
    The philosophical explanation of karma can differ slightly between traditions, but the general concept is basically the same. Through the law of karma, the effects of all deeds actively create past, present, and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain and joy it brings to him/her and others. The results or 'fruits' of actions are called karma-phala. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well.

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    Ben Bushposted 15 years ago

    It seems that the words of Jesus should be consulted further. Its already been stated that Jesus said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." This has been taken to refer to the Romans who actually crucified Him. But earlier, when before Pilate, He said, "......he that delivered me to you has the greater sin." This is referring to the Jewish Leaders since they are the ones who delivered Jesus to the Romans.
    
    Karma???? Not according to the Bible. The history of the Jews as God's chosen people includes God directly overseeing their actions, good or bad and rewarding them accordingly. This is repeatedly stated in the Bible. And this is not limited to the Jews, but includes the entire population of the earth, as well.
    
    The point being that God is the one who determines when and to what degree He deals with a group according to their sinful actions, not man.
    
    According to the Bible, the Jews specifically delivered Jesus to the Romans to be crucified, but the sins of humanity was the reason He allowed Himself to be delivered by the Jews. So, while some want to point an accusing finger at the Jews, there are a few other fingers on that same hand pointing back to themselves. We all have a part in what the Jews did.
    
    The Good news is that Jesus does not hold that against anyone who comes to Him in repentance and faith in Him. That's something Karma can't provide, forgiveness.

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    Ben Bushposted 15 years ago

    It seems that the words of Jesus should be consulted further. Its already been stated that Jesus said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." This has been taken to refer to the Romans who actually crucified Him. But earlier, when before Pilate, He said, "......he that delivered me to you has the greater sin." This is referring to the Jewish Leaders since they are the ones who delivered Jesus to the Romans.
    
    Karma???? Not according to the Bible. The history of the Jews as God's chosen people includes God directly overseeing their actions, good or bad and rewarding them accordingly. This is repeatedly stated in the Bible. And this is not limited to the Jews, but includes the entire population of the earth, as well.
    
    The point being that God is the one who determines when and to what degree He deals with a group according to their sinful actions, not man.
    
    According to the Bible, the Jews specifically delivered Jesus to the Romans to be crucified, but the sins of humanity was the reason He allowed Himself to be delivered by the Jews. So, while some want to point an accusing finger at the Jews, there are a few other fingers on that same hand pointing back to themselves. We all have a part in what the Jews did.
    
    The Good news is that Jesus does not hold that against anyone who comes to Him in repentance and faith in Him. That's something Karma can't provide, forgiveness.

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    Ben Bushposted 15 years ago

    I find it interesting that many comments and assertions have been made, but most of them are merely opinions, especially about God. I wonder, though, how many are really seeking the truth in such matters?
    
    It's too easy to blast or blame "Christians" because of their actions and apply that to God. It's also too easy to say Jesus isn't this way or that way when it's also just as easy to read what Jesus said and did. It's true that Jesus did love people and expects His followers to do the same. But that doesn't mean that he lets people off the hook for their actions simply because they follow him or say they follow Him.
    
    Don't blame God for what His people choose to say or do. Sometimes they're idiots! Sometimes, they make sense. Either way, they should be judged according to truth, not opinion or feelings. That also applies to everyone else. It also applies to considering the holocaust.

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    viralprospectorposted 15 years ago

    Paraglider;
    
    You said to me:
    
    "However there are some out there who insist you're either with Jesus or against him. That is stupid. It is too simplistic to be worthy of consideration, especially when they clearly mean their unique version of Jesus. A version, I need hardly add, that would not be recognised by most of his followers."
    
    I humbly reply:
    
    I am saying what the Bible says. You or any other person cannot make the Bible say something that it does not. I am totally unconcerned what you or anyone else thinks about the Bible in comparison to what I think of the Bible itself. Your insults of it, listed in your quote above, are sad to me. Hopefully, we can rise above that method of discussion. If you think I have a unique version of Jesus, feel as you wish. If I have ever erred in my hundreds of posts on Hubpages, please point that out to me, speaking of generalities.

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       Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       VP (if I may use the abbreviation?) - I was in fact talking to you about some others, possibly but not necessarily on hubpages, which is why I said "there are some out there". I'm a little surprised that you seem to have rushed to identify yourself with them, but that's your prerogative. I also said that about a quarter of the people I know are Christians (members of the Churches of Scotland or of England) who wouldn't dream of threatening me or anyone else with hellfire. Perhaps you don't believe they are Christians, but they do, and they are decent folk, going about their business and harming nobody.
       
       And I did not insult the Bible. But as an 'outside observer' I find it intriguing that most devotees of the book are at peace with their neighbours, while a small number seem not to want peace, preferring to wield their bibles like clubs to beat up unbelievers, or even believers who don't believe 'properly'. And who gets to define 'properly'? Apparently, you do, but you are 'totally unconcerned what you or anyone else thinks about the Bible in comparison to what I think of the Bible itself' So you are judge and jury over your neighbours? That's a tough one to accept.

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    gamergirlposted 15 years ago

    Can we possibly leave Hubber's personal racial prejudices out of the discussion and keep somewhat kind-of on topic?  I'd rather not see pro/anti-Muslim crap slung around in the Religion forum.

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    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    You can't avoid it

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    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Sir Dent -
    
    I am not arguing with the fact that Hitler was popular in certain quarters in the Arab world because of his stance against the Jews.
    
    But-
    
    What about all the christians that welcomed him with open arms?
    
    Why are you not railing against them at the same time?
    
    Why do you choose to ignore the fact that Hitler was very popular amongst christians?
    
    The Wehrmacht motto was, "Gott Mit Uns."  - God is with us.
    
    Hitler was very popular all over Christian  Europe - including Britain. It wasn't until Poland was invaded, the rest of Europe realized what threat he posed.
    
    The British government willfully covered up information regarding the concentration camps - even after the war.

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       SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I missed your point then Mark. What Christians did was not right, if they backed Hitler after finding out that he was a liar. I'm sure that some resisted but I have no proof of it.
       
       Do you have proof of Christians actually helping to kill the Jews? If so I would love to see it.
       
       If something is wrong, it is always wrong and never right, except in the fact that it is wrong.
       
       I don't know anything about Britain's covering up anything.  I would be a fool to try and discuss it.

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    christinekvposted 15 years ago

    May I remind everyone who thinks Christians don't act Christlike, that Christians are hateful, that Christians support war and Hitler as being popular amongst Christians, of the Ten Boom family?

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       talfordposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Christine,
       
       Corrie Ten Boom's father died in the concentration camps because he was caught hiding Jews in Holland. Her and her sister both were in the camps. They loved God enough that they risked everything they possessed, including their own lives, to save human beings who they knew to be created in the image of God. It did not matter what anyones beliefs were.
       
       As it was then so it is now. People of the world look at what comes out of the U.S.A., via Hollywood, and politics, and says, "Christian America!" with dispite.
       
       In the mean time Christian missionaries are being murdered for their beliefs all over the world and hardly a word is spoken.

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          Anitha1978posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Im not going to argue with you with whatever you said here except for the christian being murdered for their beliefs part. murdering is a sin. its never right to kill someone. but when you say Christian missionaries are being murdered for their beliefs all over the world are you not telling only one side of the story? what about being murdered because they behaved like fanatics? A disaster has struck. many organizations fly over and provide food and shelter and medical aid to the affected people. but what do many christian organizations do? show these poor people they have warm blankets and good food and they can only get this if they convert to their religion. These fanatics not only work in disaster areas but also attack porverty stricken villages and towns. thats why these people get killed. fanatics killed by other fanatics. you teach God love to change people not bribe them. not every missionary is being killed for their christian beliefs. many are killed for being fanatics themselves

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             talfordposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Anitha, I am sorry I did not respond sooner. I haven't been here in a couple of days.
             
             You said, "what about being murdered because they behaved like fanatics?" Well, no doubt there are many fanatics. I don't think that is just cause to kill someone. Pity all all the left and right wing fanatics in America if that gets accepted.
             
             As far as denying people food or blankets unless they convert, I would have to say that is not my idea of Christianity. I would like to know what organizations do that? If you have documentation it would be good to do a hub and expose them. Their donations would dwindle fast if their donors are made aware.
             
             I was not looking for for sympathy when I answered Christine. What I was doing was stating a fact. Their have been many things done by "Christians" or "Christian" nations that are not Christian. My example is the excessive sexual images put out by Hollywood. These are  mostly put out by people who do not even claim to be Christian, but because we are veiwed as a "Christian" nation, Chistians are very often blamed. This is in contrast to people such as the Ten Boom family, and many like them, who live a godly life without fanfare.

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          gamergirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Just a note:  Several searches on google brought up very little in the way of information on missionaries being killed - A smattering of stories of isolated violence spread out over a decade amounting to 20 or so missionaries in all, killed two or three at a time.
          
          Amidst these results came a long article written about anti-Hindu/anti-Islamic hate spewed by "Christians" and such.
          
          Carry on.

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    allshookupposted 15 years ago

    Corrie Ten Boom.....in school I read and did a report on this. Very compassionate people.

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    livelongerposted 15 years ago

    I think it's worth making a distinction between Christians and Christianists.
    
    Christians actually abide by Christ's teachings. They're concerned with alleviating poverty and misery, tolerance of their fellow man, etc.
    
    Christianists cherry-pick Old Testament passages, ignore New Testament ones that aren't convenient to them, and are generally obsessively belligerent and hateful. They're obsessed with gay marriage, fighting a holy war in the Middle East, etc.
    
    Unfortunately, Christianists tend to get a lot more press because they try to attract it.

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    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    Surprisingly, here I find myself mostly in agreement with you

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    Paragliderposted 15 years ago

    Me too!
    
    And Livelonger's distinction between Christians and Christianists is no doubt meant to parallel the distinction between Muslims and Islamists and/or Jews and Zionists. But does the word even have currency? Perhaps it should.

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    Ben Bushposted 15 years ago

    So, are we to conclude that Hitler was a Christianist, as well as those who followed him?
    If so, where does that leave the Christians in relation to the Jews, Holocaust and Karma?

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       Inspirepubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Christians wouldn't have a set position with regard to a Hindu concept like karma, would they now?
       
       There was a time when they could have been excommunicated for even entertaining the notion that karma might be real - first commandment and all ...
       
       Jenny

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          Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Jenny, your expectations are high, indeed.     A set position is dependent upon the "Christian" group you are referring to. There are probably a variety of "set" positions. I believe the same could be said about a "set" Hindu position.
          
          I'm not an expert on Karma by any means, so I can only respond in a general sense. Scripture would probably agree with only a portion of the teaching of Karma. That would include what the Bible refers to as the law of sowing and reaping. Maybe you can bring up specifics.
          
          You're right about the excommunication part. Sadly, access to the Scripture was limited at best. Most of the time, understanding the Scripture was left to Leaders. There was a reason it was called the dark ages.
          
          Ben

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    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Livelonger - Christianist - I like it. 
    
    Mike - that is the most intelligent thing I have heard you say. Although I am a little confused. Not so long ago you were arguing against evolution being taught in schools?
    
    Sir Dent - I was trying to make several points.
    
    1. Attacking the muslim faith is not a very christian thing to do.
    
    2. There is just as much evidence that "christianism" has been used to instigate wars and killing as there is that "islamism" has been.
    
    Both of these faiths are then defended by the righteous and the argument is that these are not really christians/muslims.
    
    Now, I have no argument with that. I have yet to meet a genuine christian or muslim
    
    You yourself, have written hubs denigrating the muslim faith. Is that the act of a christian?
    
    I make no distinction. I think both of them can be and have been used to generate nationalistic war-mongering behavior.
    
    It is all politics, and just as there can be no such thing as democracy when you have only 2 options from a population of 300 million, there can be no such thing as christianity when people are prepared to believe that nuclear weapons are a "christian," response.
    
    It is time the bible was re-written in a way that it could not be used to these ends. Care to try?

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       Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Mark Knowles,
       You stated,
       
       I have yet to meet a genuine christian.....
       
       
       What is a genuine Christian?
       
       This is probably not the post for you to answer that question, so I have started a post for it entitled "What is a genuine Christian?"

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       SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I also wrote a hub about the Crusades. You should go and read it sometime.
       
       What your opinion about how a Christian should act?
       
       Jesus exposed wickedness and evil where it was. Muslims have a history of being against Israel that spans millenia.What makes anyone think Muslims have changed in this day and time?
       
       The Bible is perfect as it is written. Only a fool would try to rewrite it.
       
       Endnote. This will be my last post on this thread. It has gotten way too far off topic of the OP anyway. There is no use beating the bush anymore here.

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    livelongerposted 15 years ago

    I didn't coin the word - blogger Andrew Sullivan did:
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic … 26,00.html

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    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Mike - Jenny was suggesting that the Visigoths were the Roman's Karma

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    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Oh I see.  I was wondering about that after I wrote it.  I guess I don't have a full grasp of the meaning of karma.  But with that it would be that their Karma was the Visigoths ... and the long defunct Roman Empire, don't you think?  I guess that's what you said anyway.  Thanks Mark.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Yes - The Roman Empire rather than the Roman Catholic Church.
    
    I can only guess at what their karma is.
    
    Not that I believe in karma as it is being discussed on this thread.

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    mulderposted 15 years ago

    I think everyone getting of the point   the question was asked   Was The Holocaust Karma?
    
    if you had read the books   about  the  Holocaust like   I have    you could never think  of asking that question    no human deserves to be treated  like the jews  were  and karma plays no part it   it was  caused by one sick crazed  man in his lust for power  and thank god he was stoped .

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    Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

    I think the answer to the Hollywood sexual imagery dilemma is just to stop thinking and speaking of the US as "a Christian nation".
    
    A Christian nation would not allow that sort of sexual imagery - currently the US constitution protects it. A Christian nation would not allow children to go homeless - currently one in five homeless people in the US is a child. A Christian nation would not allow people to die because they do not have medical insurance. A Christian nation would not throw people off unemployment benefits after six months. A Christian nation would not allow the slaughter of innocent animals for entertainment, or for testing cosmetics. A Christian nation would not allow babies to be subjected to excruciating pain in the name of non-Christian cultural practices like circumcision and ear-piercing.
    
    As you can see, the US is not actually a Christian nation.
    
    In some ways, it would be a better place if it was. But in some ways, particularly civil rights and human freedoms, it would be a worse place.
    
    Better to let go of the notion, and stop using it in international rhetoric, so that other nations can understand that the US is multi-cultural, multi-religious, tolerant, and diverse. The US can teach more totalitarian nations about freedom of speech and tolerance of diversity by its example, but it throws away that opportunity if it starts to paint itself as a mono-religious nation.
    
    Jenny

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       talfordposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I agree, it is not. Whether you or I like it, it is still viewed that way.
       
       I don't agree with all your premises, but I do agree it is not a Christian nation. It is a nation that was founded but men who overwhelmingly considered themselves Christian, but understood the dangers of allowing men, in political power, the authority of God.

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    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    Thought the first immigrants came to America in flight from religous persecution. The government was supposedly in part constructed, to prevent that from happening here.

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       talfordposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Agreed.
       
       Some of the early colonies had a theocratic form of government. In the end, this form of government was rejected for a very simple reason. Men run governments, not God.
       
       We are unique. Our rights are recognized in our Constitution as granted to us only by the Creator. Yet no man can tell us how we must worship him. This uniqueness also grants us; yea, even demands of us, the power and the right, to rise up against government, when these freedoms are usurped.

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          Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          In the nature of the times, most people coming from Europe were bound to be Christian albeit of different 'flavours'. People are not prophets. Even prophets are not prophets, imho. The founding fathers could not have known that after a couple of hundred years the country would host so many Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Rastafarians, Scientologists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. together with atheists, agnostics and rationalists.
          
          I believe they were trying to protect diversity. In the spirit of the constitution, it is surely more appropriate to welcome modern diversity (which is more diverse) than to hark back to the diversity of that time, which was basically Christian diversity. I think that's what these guys would have wanted.

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             sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             In a way the founders of the Constitution in your sense where not prophets, and I get what you are saying, not even prophets were prophets, but in the Spirit of humanity, and the need for diversity and equality regardless of indavidual beliefs, they were smart enough or in good "spirits" enough to chose thier words carefully. 
             
             Even in the good book, prophets are only prophets in hindsight.  Can't remember what scripture contians this, but it says that a prophet is only a prophet if it comes to pass and if it doesn't then they weren't.
             
             Coure I lean toward manipulation and deception in words that can create a desired effect.  Much like the Bible, in thier desire to fullfil the prophecy, they gotta make it happen otherwise it is a bunch of crap. 
             
             All along they don't realize that it does not have to happen.  Give people a promised land and watch them come because what lies underneith (yes lies) is hope that everything would just be better. 
             
             Can't say I blame people for thier actions at the deepest level of course, but I can say that they lack a true "faith" if you will, which is that it could get better if they would stop trying to fullfill the "prophetic words" of the book.
             
             If there is a Heaven, I gave it up because it is not worth destroying life to get there. 

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             talfordposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             I hope you did not misunderstand me. I was not saying that we need to take up arms against the government.

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       LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       As far as I can remember, men like John Winthrop didn't want to escape persecution, they just wanted to be doling it out rather than receiving it.

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    PeterJposted 15 years ago

    first of all, Karma is dealt with in the bible, although it is not called that. Remember the phrase, "As ye sow so shall ye reap" ?
    
    also, although Hitler claimed he was christian, he and most of the upper echelon members of the Nazi party were members of the Thule society, which is based on a form of Norse paganism.
    
    The main reason this fact was witheld at the Nuremberg trials is that the allied prosecutors feared if if it was revealed, some of the Nazi officers would be acquitted due to reasons of insanity and would only be imprisoned, not sentenced to death.

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    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society
    Have also heard this: "Skull and Bones is believed to be the American branch of the original German Thule Society". That would be the Yale based Skull & Bones, of the Bush family membership.

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       PeterJposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I reckon bush is an out an aout satanist, he gave the hooked horns symbol with his hand in the middle of his inauguration.
       
       he later laughed this off and claimed this was the hand sign for fans of the Texas Longhorns but this is wrong, the longhorns sign is thumb and little finger outstretched (hence longhorns)  not thumb and forefinger - a fact a supposed fan would know.
       
       anyway, don't want to derail the thread but anyone who wants to check this out should just google the phrase 'bush satan sign' and check the images that are found

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    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years ago

    The crucifying of Christ can in no way be justified... because after his death, he had become the God for the local people in Jerusalem.   He was crucified on the orders of the Roman Govt. and the jews may have completed the task. Does not "Karma" ie., "reap what you sow" principle apply here? To come out of their sins, the Romans have housed the headquarters of Christianity in Rome.  How will the jews be responsible for it? Hitler may have taken up  holocaust just to avenge the escape of jew-scientists  to America and deprived him of not equiping Germany with atom bombs.

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