Freewill and Heaven
One of the many stumbling blocks non-believers face in the path of christian doctrine is accepting the notion of a loving God, for how could such a God allow such terrible suffering down here on Earth? This is commonly known as the problem of evil and is usually answered by theologians with the freewill defence, ie; God allows suffering so we may have free choice, [not withstanding the fact that a fair bit of human suffering comes not as a result of freewill but from natural evil...cyclones, earthquakes etc.]
Accepting the freewill defence for the sake of argument... I would ask Christians, if it is more important for us to have freewill than no suffering, then what happens in Heaven? If suffering is a result of freewill then everyone there must be an automaton, since there is supposed to be no suffering in Heaven. Yet there must be, since its considered so important that God allows suffering so we can have it. If its possible to have freewill AND no suffering [as in Heaven] then why can't we have it here?
Now some have that argued Adam and Eve's sin made man aware of good and evil. As a result, man was free to knowingly choose between the two options. Those who make it into heaven are the ones who have shown that they will willingly choose good. People in heaven can choose evil [as Lucifer did], but they will probably choose not to because things are so incredibly great in heaven.
God doesn't seem to concerned about metering out punishment and reward here on Earth, since here suffering falls upon people indiscriminately, that is, on those who have chosen good over evil as well those who haven't so God must be using freewill as a kind of tool to judge us for the afterlife....an elevation to Heaven or a slide down to Hell.
Okay but...
Firstly, it doesn't seem very moral or loving of God to allow suffering to His children[us] just so we can be morally tested in some way. It's one thing to bring children up with a sense of morality, it's another to deliberately expose them to suffering and evil just so we can judge them. Secondly, God doesn't give us a level playing field to begin with. For example, it's easier to be morally good if you're brought up iin a nice, loving family surrounded by good influences than if you are raised in squalor, among corrupting influences and with no moral guidance. You can still choose good...but it's harder. Is that fair? Thirdly if hardly anyone would choose evil in Heaven because there is no suffering, then why not create that state on Earth and eliminate both evil and suffering? Why is the "test" necessary?
'Course there are are others who might even argue that freewill on Earth is only an illusion...but that's another story.Free will is an illusion. There is no other decision one could choose to make, but the choice one made. Everything that has led up to that moment of choice has programmed one to make the exact decision that was made.
Nobody asks to be born. We are brought into the world without choice, and we live in a world where we have the illusion of making one. Every moment from conception conditions you to be a certain way, and from that point forward your history is written.You materialized yourself with your thoughts.
That is one person's opinion. It is also completely irrelevant to this forum topic.
its about god allowing suffering,
the reality is all is god, god is you,
all is you.
"The Kingdom of god is within." "I tell ye you are all gods" Jesus Christianity
Shiva Ho Hum- I am Shiva- Hindu Philosophy
- Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago
0I'm reminded of the verse that asks who it is who asks God why He made us thus......
Difficult subject.
One note----mankind still doesn't "choose good (actions)" as much as it is that we can choose to Love God while recognizing our own frailty. And I'm not so sure it's easier to "choose good" when we're raised in a good loving home, because then we're still tempted to become selfish and rebellious and don't appreciate what we have.....
That's all He wants---for us to Love Him. That's what free will is all about. How could we choose anything if there weren't two options?!
The Bible says we were created for His pleasure. It pleases Him when we Love Him. The entire universe and the great plan for mankind is designed and built upon the principle of agency. It was our own agency of choice that inaugurated our birth. What qualified it was our acceptance of the plan of the Father and Jesus Christ over that of Lucifer. Agency is the conduit by which eternal increase and happiness are realized.
Thankyou for the responses.
goldepath, I don't really understand your answer. How does this answer my question?
crmhaske, though I tend to agree with you, I don't think it's a done deal. At least we don't know enough yet to say for certain freewill doesn't exist. Do we...?
Brenda, A fair point...a nice home has it's moral pitfalls. The point remains though, that our moral choices depend to a large degree if not totally, on our genetic make-up and external influences. We are not *equal* in that sense.Yes, please elaborate goldenpath, I also do not understand your answer.
I've read many scientific journals on the subject by many reputable neuroscientists who have done research in the area. Overall the jury is still out; however, the general consensus so far has been that we are a simply a product of our brain chemistry, and that choice is an illusion. Here is a quote from one such journal:
"In any case, neuroscience is posing some serious challenges to our conceptions of free will and moral responsibility. Some of these challenges are global: They cast doubt on the very possibility of free will and moral responsibility, even in the case of healthy, normal, human brains. Other challenges are more specific: They suggest that many people, whom we would now hold responsible for their actions, in fact have diminished moral responsibility and legal culpability because of the structure or function of their brain."
- GARDAR ARNASON in Neuroimaging Uncertainty and the Problem of Dispositions
Neuroethics is an extraordinarily interesting field residing in the overlap between psychology and philosophyThat sounds like simply an attempt at excusing immoral behavior.
And how do we know what kind of moral sense those neuro-scientists have, that we'd trust their findings?Morality is a man made creation, and as such is extraordinarily subjective.
I disagree totally.
We all have consciences, (except maybe some people who are born with mental problems, etc.), though many try to deny it.The only innate instinct in humans is survival.
That raises another question. What happens to people who aren't capable of making moral decisions? How can they be tested...? How can they choose God? Does God just let them into Heaven with a free pass?
If you mean people who're born mentally disabled...
Yes that's my opinion anyway. I believe God views them as innocents.
But NOT people who've been in their right minds before and had the chance to make the choice.We are entirely a product of what happens to us - things that are out of our domain to control. Our reactions are a result of our biochemistry - something that is out of our domain to control, sort of. The day might come where we are able to alter this permanently - that also is a frightening thought, another eugenics movement.
Choices and morals are an illusion, but in order to maintain a functioning society consequences for those actions which inhibit social cohesion have to be punished, regardless of the fact that people are essentially biological machines.
The weak get left behind, and the delinquent is dealt with. This is true anywhere in the animal kingdom, it has to be for the successful propagation of the species.Brenda...a loophole in the system?
Maybe, but God's a bit funny about damaged people. In Leviticus He says he doesn't even want anyone with a boil entering his church lest it soil his sanctuary.
Brenda,
Science is morally neutral. While an individual scientist may have his own moral bent the process of science wont allow for it.I see.
It's just that I never leave out the possibility of human error, nor human manipulations.Well, you're right there...these things occur but the process is designed to minimise subjectivity, so anyone trying manufacture results to suit their own agenda will likely be caught out. Same goes for manipulations.
Science isn't perfect but it's the best tool we have with which to understand the natural world.hmmm, how can science be the better of the two? Both are highly fallible and subjective to themselves and each other. The human condition is what defines and drives those optic instances -ironically- by their own choice. This defies the basic fundamentals of the two and most certainly Free Will...
Biological machine versus free moral agent? I agree it is fascinating crmhaske. I'm wondering...even if we could conclusively prove there was no freewill-we'd probably have to keep functioning as though we did...too problematic not too.
That there is what is frightening about the premise. I accept that I am merely a product of my biology, and I am capable of functioning normally under this premise - but not everybody can. What some might do with this premise is terribly frightening.
I don't promote my hubs on the forums, but I do encourage the hub "Children Who Die." This will, in part, help explain many other instances in life that we view as "unfair." Mortality is but a moment, a twinkle, in the halls of eternity. From that perspective of eternal progression the field is more level than any of us think.
vaguely ... He had a warped sence of humor. and a limp.
good one.
a wise king who became mentally inferior, to the point of running around, eating grass and snorting like a wild animal.Sorry about that another way to say HUH
I think that was a leson about being pridefull.
I don't remember right now if he was pridefull again after that? I.m pretty sure it was after that that he destroyed Sosolons temple. Didn't hear from him after that.Which was a punishment from God for his error....
Do ya know when he died. I know that his grand son was in controll of the kingdom around 560? when Daniel had his vision about the Goat and Ram, but never heard where Nebeuchadnezzar went? Heard he went on a trip???
- Onusonusposted 14 years ago0
Free will is one of the most important aspects in the father's plan of creation. We grow, we experiance mortality through trial and error, we learn good from bad. How could somone appreciate a sunny day if there were never any rain? Or how could we know joy if that were all we ever experienced?
It's a huge risk to let people choose for themselves right over wrong, but it is worth the risk, even more so than death.Okay but why does the suffering have to be so extreme? After all there are some whose lives are so marred by horror that there are few sunny days to appreciate. The world is full of terrible agonies. If it was just a question of a little rain...
I don't know why, I think it's because people choose to make it that way.
Case point, My mother had a severly rough childhood of being beaten and abused. She then had the choice to prepetuate that life style or not, she chose not. Through her experiance I believe that all of her children have grown in faith, understanding, and most of all forgivness.
It's nott he most extreme example but I could only imagine what kind of growth comes out of those who survive personal or natural disaster.I'm glad your mother was able to transcend her childhood abuse, but I don't believe i that *people choose to make it that way*, at least not in many, many cases.
Babies born with horrible, painful diseases and deformities...? Children beaten to a pulp? People with their arms blown off in a wars they had no part in starting? Should I go on...?
Also that doesn't answer the question is there "freewill in Heaven"..if there is then that means we can still have it without the suffering. If not , freewill can't be all it's cracked up to be then can it...since Heaven is supposed to be the ultimate state?
Well in that case, I believe that this life is preperation for the next one as generic as that may seem, So I say yes to free will in Heaven.
So God DOES just choose to include suffering. Thanks for responding anyway...
Who coerced you into starting this thread? Was it some unseen force that prodded you until you gave in and started it?
Of course I know you started it only because you wanted to. You chose to do it and did it. This is freewill.
God created man to have a mind toward Him. Man used his mind for things that against God and suffering came with it.
God could end suffering at any moment, and at the same time God oculd take your life and you would have no say in the matter. If He was to do that, He would be going against His ownself. You think you have no free will, but yet you do. You starting this thread proves that you do.
God will not force you or anyone else to do anything at all. They are our choices to make.Sirdent,
I never said that we didn't have freewill...just that I was leaning toward that conclusion. However, I wouldn't believe we did just because you proclaimed it .Oh..and my starting this thread proves nothing either way.
My proclamation means nothing. Your actions do.
SirDent,
Have you ever considered that freewill might be a perception?
You believe my opening this thread is conclusive evidence of freewill. Perhaps it's not though. Perhaps it just seems that way.....
I opened the thread and was myself fooled Into thinking I'd consciously decided to, when really the decision was made for me by a kind of biological central processing unit. It's not only possible...in the view of many scientists, it's probable.
Every physical system that science has examined has turned out to be random or deterministic. For us to be an exception would mean we are *outside the rules* of the physical world, which would be extremely unlikely........it means we'd have to be supernatural.
Over the years experiments have revealed over and over again that the that the brain signals associated with human actions occur *before* the subject is conscious of deciding to make them, strongly suggesting that our intentional behaviour is driven not by free conscious choice but by a physiological process over which we have no control..Jane:
Before I could even consider a try at a response to this forum subject, I'd have to be able to understand 2 facets of it: 1.god, 2.heaven.
I agree with Haske on the freewill aspect of it, but to be able to begin to formulate an intellectual reply as to how free will, god and heaven are related, can you fill me in on the 2 aforementioned subjects? TY.
If you can't, then what is the concern?The main question of this forum, the relationship between free will, evil, and heaven, is a very interesting postulate. As I do not believe in the latter, it is simply a thought experiment, but an interesting one at that. I'm interested to see the viewpoint of the faithful on this one. It has always been my personal opinion that the traditional Christian description of Heaven sounds terribly, terribly boring - and autonomic.
Haske:
I won't get an answer.
The god thing of all 3 major monotheisms rewards it's believers so differently in heaven....according to biblical scriptures ya just go to heaven to be with god and jesus and worship 'em for eternity...borrrrrring! A martyrd muslim guy gets all kinds of wonderful rewards and, if I remember correctly about 72 virgins to keep him busy...'course jews are still waiting and catholic "christians' must play in purgatory for a length of time...it's all so confusing and frustrating....lolol.
There are a few "believers" in the forum that I don't bother reading because every response is TRITE! Which to me is indicative of a primitive lack of intellectual essence.
They have been irreversibly indoctrinated and will be followers, regardless of any logical or well reasoned influence.
It's defined as "fanaticism."Oh fanaticism. I've done research on the psychology of the addiction, and its official classification as a mental disorder in the DSM. At some point I intend to write a hub about it.
crmhaske.
As Mark Twain said..."Heaven for climate, Hell for company"
I'm using the Christian definition of God and Heaven. See Bible.
Ty Jane:
I can't respond then.
The bible doesn't define this god thing except in the form of opinion and conjecture and there is no mention of free will in any monotheistic scripture.
I can't reply in intellectual form because intellect has to do with the power of knowing and knowledge. Neither of those words relate, in any manner, to this opined, god thing or heaven.
Thanks for your reply...:-)
Hi friends
Religiously the Christians cannot talk of a free will; as their Jesus-god was forced as they put "to die on Cross". So it is compulsion to start with in Christianity. But this is the Christianity of Paul; as for Jesus he was a free man.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimFree will is defined by Webster as:
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
God gave us free will to let us decide which path we want to walk in life. In the end, as long as you have faith in God, he will be the only judge of the choices you made with free will.This doesn't answer the question though, the question is how does free will come into play in Heaven. Essentially:
With free will, comes evil
There is no evil in heaven
Therefore, there is no free will in heaven
As an extension I'll add, without its opposite, good doesn't exist.
So, if heaven is nothing but autonomic, you as you know yourself essentially cease to exist at death. You are absorbed into the "divine being," and have no conscious experience of anything. As such, oblivion is your final end.
So, what exactly is heaven then?Heaven is where you go after you are judged by GOD and accepted to join his kingdom. What exactly is evil? Who said there is no evil in Heaven?
Eph:
{6:12} For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers
of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in
high [places. ]adiggity
If there is evil in heaven then the possibility for suffering must exist thereWhere there is evil there is a potential for suffering...if you don't believe that take it up with the Church.
I think your belief may be true on earth, but it's kind of presumptuous to apply that kind of thinking toward Heaven.
Ah yes, therein lays one serious problem with theistic religion - when confronted with a question one doesn't have an answer for one's mind is thrown entirely out the window and replaced with "human rationality can't be applied to the divine." I'm all for some things transcending ordinary language, but sometimes it just gets a little ridiculous.
But then, this problem exists with a lot of non-religious views too. The limits of the human mind ...And there lies the problem with arrogance. When one doesn't have the answer that someone else learned about, the other persons insight becomes invalid.
I never said your insight became invalid, just expressed my frustration at the dead end all of these discussions conclude at. There's no attempt to try and explain it, for example, in Zen Buddhism there are koans, which when tried to answer with human rationality it ends in failure, and they are meant to teach one how to transcend the shackles rationality binds us with. But in the theistic religions there is no attempt, just a wall nobody cares to attempt to climb over.
There is no dead end if you read the BIBLE. May I ask if you ladies believe in any creator what so ever?
At points in my life I have, at this point in my life I do not.
So you believe the whole universe came together with no help at all?
I believe that it has always existed. My finite existence may require a time=0, but that does not mean the universe does.
Hi friends
The Universe existing from the time the Creator- God Allah YHWH commanded it with the Word "Be" and it started the process with which everything started evolving; and it will continue till such time He commands it "not to be" and it will cease to exist.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimAll of the time. The only constant in life is change. It is the only thing we can count on, and the only thing that will indefinitely always be.
So I understand correctly.
By your belief:
There is a universe that has always existed with no help from any creator, but is constantly changing. Nothing more, nothing less? I assess you believe in evolution then? Would this be correct?By presupposing a creator, it requires you to believe He/She/It has always existed or else you regress infinitely to "well what created it..." and as such our only difference is I don't believe in a needless middle man.
Yes, I believe in a timeless universe that is not the same from moment to moment by my finite perception; however, the concept of change requires the concept of linear time, and as such the infinite universe is changeless by infinite perception.
Yes, I do believe in evolution.So, if the universe always existed, when did it start evolving? Do you also believe in the Laws of Thermodynamics?
Yes, in a finite existence I believe in the laws of thermodynamics. I studied Aerospace Engineering, thermodynamics was one of my favourite subjects. At this point you will probably start talking about entropy and the second law of thermodynamics, don't bother, I know where you are going with this. An infinite universe, can have many finite beginnings, and finite ends, while existing changelessly infinite.
"Hsueh-feng was serving as the rice cook. Once ... the Master asked, “do you cull out pebbles and set the rice aside, or do you cull out the rice and set the pebbles aside?” “I set aside the rice and the pebbles at one and the same time,” replied Hsueh-feng. “What will the monks eat?” asked the Master.
Hsueh-feng immediately turned over the rice bucket."An Aero Eng grad congrats. Actually, Thermo was asked more to find out whether or not you thought energy could be created or destroyed. Entropy actually supports itself enough to defeat the Theory of Evolution. The first Law would deduce whether or not you thought the Universe was an open or closed system, and whether or not it was expanding.
I like fried rice.Energy is spontaneously created all of the time with the virtual particle, and it is spontaneously destroyed all of the time with these virtual particles.
Life evolves forward, and backward, and remains the same.
The universe expands, and contracts, and remains still.By that line of thought it seems to me that you think time is relative. So, when does the virtual particle actually become a particle?
The virtual particle becomes a particle only if it can pay back the energy loan that it took to create it, if not, it disappears. How it takes this "energy loan," and how some of them pay it back is yet unknown to us.
I think time is a construct of our finite existence. Because we are born, subsequently die, and everything in our reality follows the same course it seems only natural to us to project our finite existence on everything else. But that is all it is, projection.I don't think we ever will know. Science can only go so far when it attempts to describe what GOD has created. Of course, the cosmological constant would be a great step forward, but it would also just create more questions. The questions will never cease, even though the answer is already here. Your existence doesn't have to be finite, you can live eternally with faith in GOD.
Edig:
...not until you can define this god thing you speak of "factually."
If you can only offer opinion and conjecture.....you have nothing but "hope" upon which to build your "afterlife."
To guide ones life on naught but hope is absolutely absurd!Here's a fact, there is a BIBLE, and GOD is in it.
Edig:
I'm going to ask you to do something you will not be able to do.
Pls provide scripture in the bible that defines this god you believe in, in any form but opinion.
"Opinion" is nothing but a belief stronger than an impression and less strong than positive knowledge.
If you cannot do that, then you are not credible in ref to anything you mention about this god thing and my impression of your "belief" IS credible.Here is a description that defines GOD from the BIBLE. Hope this helps.
Revelation
{1:8} I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the
ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which
is to come, the Almighty.Edig:
For goodness sakes!
Pls re-read my request.
It says in a form other than OPINION!...and you offer opinion!
You have no credability at all.
Enuf! tsk, tsk.
Edig:
There you go again!
Time? What is time?
No one knows!
You keep asking questions it seems you haven't thought out well.
Why?If you re-read my post you will notice I didn't ask a question about time. That's the whole comprehension piece. Qwark, I hope you are not offended, but is English your second language?
Edig:
Your comment:
"By that line of thought it seems to me that you think time is relative."
I think the word "time" is part of that comment?
I can't be insulted but it seems you conveniently forget what you write...why is that? :-)
I've got ya "pegged" Edig.
You will get no more responses from me....lol
Have a great day and may the FORCE be with you! :-)I don't understand what you are talking about. I made a statement about her thinking that time is relative, so what? I didn't ask her any questions about time. Again I ask, is English your second language? You never answered me the first time.
This is what you posted:
Edig:
There you go again!
Time? What is time?
No one knows!
You keep asking questions it seems you haven't thought out well.
Why?
Again, There was no QUESTION in my statement. Hope that clears things up for you. GOD Bless.
Edig:
....did you think that question out b4 you asked it?
Is it a trick question?
No human has an answer for it. I assume you knew that b4 you asked....so, why did you ask it?If no human has the answer, then how could I know? I am just asking questions to figure out her belief. She knows mine, the BIBLE, so instead of bashing hers I thought I would try to figure it out.
I am Buddhist, and some of the things I believe can also be found in Taoism.
I am also more or less completely insane
Buddhists don't believe in a creator? That's right, it's more about enlightenment and stuff huh?
Buddhism either rejects a creator or considers the existence of one altogether irrelevant. In some sects the Buddha is viewed as an omnipresent, omniscient representation of reality, but not necessarily as a creator.
Achieving "enlightenment" essentially means liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth. It is viewed much differently than reincarnation in Hinduism however. The Buddha did not believe in an individual, infinite soul. "Rebirth" is more like the returning of desire, until desire for worldly things no longer exists.
Where it gets difficult for a lot of people to understand is impermanence in Buddhism. It is in that way life is, and is not, and is neither.In essence this is tooooo... similar to any believer becoming like minded with his creator. Our creator said that he is ALL that is. In my mind to become like minded can be seen as returning to the "all that is". Becoming one with the universe.
Too many people argue over the "WORDS" others use for expression.In Buddhism it isn't a "being one with the universe" though. That implies a being of something, there is no being of something in Buddhism.
Life is, and is not, and is neither.I guess I just show off my uneducatedness.
Thought there was something about achieving higher states of enlightnment until ya transend to a higher plain or something like that?????Describing enlightenment transcends ordinary language really, to truly understand what it is one has to achieve it. That being said, at 24 I certainly have not achieved it so my explanation is provisional at best.
It is nothing, and it is something. Some sects of Buddhism believe you can achieve it through your own efforts alone (ex. Theravada), and others believe it impossible to achieve on your own (ex. Mahayana). It is a complete cessation of all desires. Loosely it is total bliss, but without attachment or emotion. It is almost existence without existence. It is to be without being.
Essentially, it is described through polarities existing simultaneously, and not existing at all.
You see the fire, and you know it exists. You see the fire extinguish, and know that it no longer exists. In which direction did it go?I think it came over here earlier and got in my BBQ pit; but it's gone now. Qust kidding.
I think I know "Kinda" what ya talking about ? Thanks for that explination. Goina hose off and fall down in the bed see ya tomorrow. unless I wake up later???Another interesting koan is this one:
"Without thinking of good or evil, show me your original face before your mother and father were born."
Though the fire one is by far my favourite.
Sweet dreams!Hi Jerami - I have a take on this.
If you don't desire anything then you already have everything.
This is logically true but also it more true 'beyond' the logic of the words.
We can easily 'see' the logic of it, the next level is out of sight until we 'attain' a higher level of thinking or being, depending if you are talking philosophy or religion.
At that next level 'not desiring anything' brings the things you really need to you, they come to you as you need them. Not desiring them in the first place means you just don't concsiousy work to get 'things'.
Looks clear as mud to me too sometimes. LOLI have to apologise for missing posts like this.
I just now saw it. I'm on and off of here so sporatically;
that this happens?
"SURE" If I got all that I want ? And I am happy ?
I could decide to want so much more stuff that I can become unhappy if I want to. Is it something like that?Kinda I guess - there is a huge difference between want and need, also we think we need what we have - when in fact if you just let it go it doesn't matter.
The only problem with it all appears to be that if you get it all right and ascend to the highest level you get to be at peace with the universe sitting alone on a mountain top freezing your butt off !!
That's funny crm, you seem unusually sane to me.. Maybe I'm crazy too.
Edig:
How in the world can you hope to find out how/why she believes as she does if you ask a question that has no answer?
That's why I asked if you had thought your question out b4 you typed it.
Hi friends
What is bad with believing the Creator-God always existed?
By definition God is who always existed so if we don't believe in God existing always; even then we have to believe in something existing always. The suggestion that Universe existed always is most incorrect when we do know that it came into being by Big Bang . If Universe would have existed always; then every part of it would have existed always; then human beings who are a part of it would have existed always. We know that we have been born and before our birth we never existed; and we know that we all would die someday. So it is not possible.
If we cannot exist always; then everything else which is a part of this Universe cannot exist always; hence the total Universe cannot exist or existed always.
So why should we resort to the most illogical position to believe a thing (Universe) existing always when we know for certain that it did not exist always.
It is safe and most logical to believe in God existing always who created everything else.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimIf you had read what I wrote after that line you would have understood what I said, evidently, you did not.
I said the only difference between my belief and hers about the universe was that I do not believe in a middle man. I believe the universe has always existed, and she believes a God that has always existed created the universe.
I never said there was anything bad about it, I just said it was different.
Your logic is incorrect, the substances in the big bang had to have existed before the big bang, and as such, the universe has always existed.Hi friends
What a logic; making one who is at the top (God- the Creator) as middleman and what is in the middle (the Universe, not even a man having intellegence ) to be on the top?
The Universe did not and could not have existed always; the reason I have given already; if it have existed always then every part of it would have eixsted always, which is not the case, so the supposition of our friend is falsified.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimWe are, and forever will be at impasse, because it is not within your realm of understanding to comprehend beliefs you do not share.
That is okay, but my beliefs have not been falsified on the grounds of your inability to understand them.
And for the record, I have never once told you that you are wrong in the context of your faith, but only when you've been wrong in understanding what I believe from my perspective.
Your lack of humility is terribly frustrating.
It's only when he never existed.
No, we don't.
You see, Allah had nothing to do with it.
Exactly, and that's just one reason why your god never existed.
You just contradicted yourself again, because your religion blinds you to contradiction.
*God moves in mysterious ways* is usually the default position. But If we can't discuss God using our own moral terms of reference [and not His mysterious ones] then any discussion is meaningless.
Exactly, it is pointless. If everyone saw that there would be no bad things on earth. No one would care about money, or material possessions, and we could co-exist with respect for all things.
Ok ediggity..point taken. Lets say God can create a state [Heaven]where freewill, evil and no-suffering can exist. Why then, can't we have that state on Earth? Why the need for suffering?
I really can't explain it any better than the BIBLE can. All the questions you ask have been answered ad nauseum in there. We can't have that state on Earth, because that's not the way GOD made it. He made free will.
The questions is not of what, but of why. Why create this cosmic play, where He creates the players, designs them to choose to play the game a certain way, the only way they can, and later doesn't accept all of the players He created.
What is the point, but God's entertainment?ediggity..no they have not been answered "God's will " is not as answer... it's a convenient cop-out. The whole point of the opening post is to highlight a flaw in the freewill defence ...and as far as I can see, there is no answer to it in the Bible....unless you can point me to the relevent bits. Maybe I missed something.
The BIBLE is full of stories that give people choices. How much more support for free will do you need?
ediiggity, I know we got sidetracked about the freewill issue...but you will see that in the opening post, for the sake of argument I AM assuming it exists.
"with free will comes evil".
The stasis of heaven is complete light, so nothing dark can enter it. Therefore, free will is not attracting evil. The notion of heaven and free will is only without human conflict (knowing good/evil aka consciousness of them). Instead it is the stasis beyond consciousness and its limitation.
This is why the elements of The Ism cannot collectively grasp it -from either perspective (equation or sensation).
The mentality of humans is to assume free will or heaven as necessity and thus seek a justified balance between them...Stasis - without change. Sounds entirely pointless.
change is defined by what? necessity.
motion is not the same as change.
Change is choice.
Choice is a matter of thought (the tres priori).
Therefore a stasis of free will is always in motion, less necessity. The human condition draws upon free will in what they assume is decision making -which is irrelevant to free will. The human thought system was designed to do automatically, freeing us from necessity of thinking as we do. The human brain is entirely a tool, a transit between body and spirit.
The general conflicting question always seems to be: why would a loving Creator not allow us to automatically exist in this stasis : the issue is we did at one time, and now have access to that stasis again. Not by pseudo ritual belief systems (via equation or sensation), but rather a reality that supersedes any and all ideologies of necessity. The longer humans continue to believe they need or are lacking or should be ill, die, etc, the longer they will continue to live in slavery to their own limitation of consciousness.
So what you are saying 21 is that it is possible for God to create a state where freewill and no suffering may co-exist. So why wouldn't a loving God give us this on Earth?
Yes, Jane, He did.
The human being it proof of this.
We are by all points exactly that creation -that stasis, free of necessity, though ever in motion. The very vibrations of the Creator 'heaven-earth' 'visible-invisible', of light is the human being. What some attempt to do is explain or elevate themselves to this stasis -either by the vehicles of ritual practice or chemically inductions -seen in everything from Peyote induced transcendental meditation (Carlos Castaneda) to prayer chains, laboratory experiments and beyond. The simple beauty is that we are that being, lacking nothing and most certainly not that stasis of Free Will -when we concede necessity and accept totality / unity with Him. This is what I would call Grace.
ediggity wrote:
Free will is defined by Webster as:
1 : voluntary choice or decision ;I do this of my own free will.
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
God gave us free will to let us decide which path we want to walk in life.
Paarsurrey wrote:
The inanimates things have no choices; the Creator - God Allah YHWH did not provide them free will. Humans have choices of free- will, but at a price; they would be accounted for what they do and judged by the Creator.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimPaassurrey where are the "logical rational arguments" you spoke of in the other thread? All I can see here are declarations of your faith.
Unless you're using Webster's dictionary as a stand-in for reason....
Your lack of humility is terribly frustrating
Hi friends
It is not lack of humility; it is the love of the Truth; I have all the respect and regards for my friends here.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimAs long as people still believe in a personal God; confusion and frustration reigns supreme!!
People fear not being in control of their lives and so have to believe they can determine their destiny. The fact of temporal conditioning is ignored and so they go round and round immersed in their delusions that they have free will.
The concept of causation adds to this delusion.Paarsurrey wrote:
By definition God is who always existed so if we don't believe in God existing always; even then we have to believe in something existing always.
Beelzedad wrote:
No, we don't
Paarsurrey says:
I think our friend crmhaske wrote that she believes that Universe always existed. In that sense she is no believer in God but believer in the Universe; rest she might explain for you, if she likes.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful MuslimSurely if you can imagine an eternal god imagining an eternal universe can't be so difficult? Unless of course the so-called believers are actually incapable of imagining the god they describe and claim to believe in.
Further, science does not tell us the universe can't always have existed. Assuming modern science has correctly described cosmogenesis time itself was created in the big bang. That means it couldn't possibly have been "caused" for anything approximating our definition of "cause" and the universe exists at all points in time.
Now, if you're like me and that seems a little difficult to wrap your head around, and you just can't completely bring yourself to buy modern science's description of cosmogenesis... then it's really very dishonest of you to go claiming science tells us the universe began to exist or that the universe requires a creator, since really you believe these sorts of statements are outside the ken of our science.
And that leaves us back where we started before it got popular to pretend we were using science to support arguments for gods: The universe just inexplicably exists, and positing a god does nothing to explain the mystery.
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