Human rights -culture based?
Country to country human rights laws are changing? or Common things are considered as human rights?
94- Misha
- 10900 posts
- Joined: 2 years ago
- Hubs: 18
- Fans: 1888
There is not a such thing. It's an artificial construct.
93- RooBee
- 1044 posts
- Joined: 7 months ago
- Hubs: 32
- Fans: 435
What a philosophical question!!
Is there a superordinate authority that dictates a universal code of human rights? Juicy!!
I give oodles of respect to cultural relativism and the idea that each act or belief must be considered within the context of the particular culture in which its taking place.
That said, I think waaaay too many crimes against humanity are justified or pushed from our consciousness by the cry of 'it's a cultural thing.'
For instance, mutilation of young girls' sexual parts is no less a human rights violation because its been indoctrinated into the culture and some of these girls have been brainwashed into thinking its okay.
Yet, I think that certain rite-of-passage rituals that Euro-christian cultures might see as barbaric are very much a 'cultural thing' and should be honored as such. (I speak about ceremonies where young men are scarred or put through tests of endurance).
It can be a sticky argument, when you pick and choose which cases are justifiable on the grounds of cultural difference and which are outright violations of that universal standard of how we treat one another.
What is your take?
91- Colebabie
- 3249 posts
- Joined: 8 months ago
- Hubs: 20
- Fans: 191
Well there is a Universal Declaration of Human rights that all countries that are a part of the UN must follow. Whether they do or not...
Roobee, are you saying that mutilating girls' private parts is a human rights violation, but mutilating boys' private parts is not?
- 91
- Colebabie
- 3249 posts
- Joined: 8 months ago
- Hubs: 20
- Fans: 191
I believe FGM was labeled as a human rights violation. It has to do more with the process and its effects. Completely different than circumscision. But thats a whole different conversation.
- 94
- Misha
- 10900 posts
- Joined: 2 years ago
- Hubs: 18
- Fans: 1888
LOL Aya, I'm afraid you opened a can. It is really a holy cow here.
- 93
- RooBee
- 1044 posts
- Joined: 7 months ago
- Hubs: 32
- Fans: 435
Aya Katz wrote:
Roobee, are you saying that mutilating girls' private parts is a human rights violation, but mutilating boys' private parts is not?
No, but that is exactly the conundrum that I was trying to get at.
By rites-of-passage, I mean things like the Sun Dance or Vision Quest that some Native American young people go through at certain points in life. The Maori tattooing. Things like that.
The Sun Dance -for instance -is brutal, painful, and could be looked at as quite horrid by outsiders. However, the men choose to participate in it (yes, it could be argued that they only do so because they have been essentially brainwashed by their own leaders).
As for the genital mutilation, it is not okay by me for that to occur to a male OR a female. These are cases where cultural relativism is a (poor) excuse to commit acts of abuse. The lack of education provided such victims serves only to perpetuate the farce that it is somehow a matter of culture.
I don't think I'm being clear because there is no clear-cut answer to this question. But in direct answer to your question: A resounding NO!!!
Edit: Are you referring to circumcision as performed in developed countries (which is very different than the female genital mutilation I'm thinking of)? 
90- ledefensetech
- 2876 posts
- Joined: 8 months ago
- Hubs: 16
- Fans: 106
Misha wrote:
There is not a such thing. It's an artificial construct.
Nope. You can understand what natural human rights are. You'll note I say natural human rights and not human rights. The latter is an artificial construct and seems to be getting more and more inclusive, or exclusive, as the case may be.
In order to understand natural human rights, you really must be able to observe the natural world and see how things really work. Cultural relativism is just another way to say "Do as thou wilt". I'll even give you a free pass on one natural human right. Liberty. Surely you can find others.
If you look at things from the perspective of liberty, quite a few things change and probably not in the way you think it would.RooBee wrote:
Aya Katz wrote:
Roobee, are you saying that mutilating girls' private parts is a human rights violation, but mutilating boys' private parts is not?
No, but that is exactly the conundrum that I was trying to get at.
By rites-of-passage, I mean things like the Sun Dance or Vision Quest that some Native American young people go through at certain points in life. The Maori tattooing. Things like that.
The Sun Dance -for instance -is brutal, painful, and could be looked at as quite horrid by outsiders. However, the men choose to participate in it (yes, it could be argued that they only do so because they have been essentially brainwashed by their own leaders).
As for the genital mutilation, it is not okay by me for that to occur to a male OR a female. These are cases where cultural relativism is a (poor) excuse to commit acts of abuse. The lack of education provided such victims serves only to perpetuate the farce that it is somehow a matter of culture.
I don't think I'm being clear because there is no clear-cut answer to this question. But in direct answer to your question: A resounding NO!!!
Edit: Are you referring to circumcision as performed in developed countries (which is very different than the female genital mutilation I'm thinking of)?Okay, I'm glad we agree that it doesn't matter if you're a girl or a boy.
Now, you seem to be bringing up another issue: does it matter whether it is done under medical supervision and/or anesthetic in a clean and hygienic manner?
No, I don't think that matters, either.
Would you support female circumcision in a hospital by a surgeon?ledefensetech wrote:
Misha wrote:
There is not a such thing. It's an artificial construct.
Nope. You can understand what natural human rights are. You'll note I say natural human rights and not human rights. The latter is an artificial construct and seems to be getting more and more inclusive, or exclusive, as the case may be.
In order to understand natural human rights, you really must be able to observe the natural world and see how things really work. Cultural relativism is just another way to say "Do as thou wilt". I'll even give you a free pass on one natural human right. Liberty. Surely you can find others.
If you look at things from the perspective of liberty, quite a few things change and probably not in the way you think it would.Ledefenstech, I'm disappointed. I thought you understood that liberty is artificial. You read my father's article, right?
- 90
- ledefensetech
- 2876 posts
- Joined: 8 months ago
- Hubs: 16
- Fans: 106
Aya Katz wrote:
Ledefenstech, I'm disappointed. I thought you understood that liberty is artificial. You read my father's article, right?
I'm pretty sure I said I disagreed with him on his dismissal of the findings of natural philosophers. In not, let me clarify that now. I've always been a fan of the natural philosophers because their ideas work. But then again, at heart I'm a utilitarian. If it works, don't screw with it.
If liberty were not a natural human right, then why do societies based on slave labor tend to be prone to uprisings and general discontent than societies based on free labor? ledefensetech wrote:
Aya Katz wrote:
Ledefenstech, I'm disappointed. I thought you understood that liberty is artificial. You read my father's article, right?
I'm pretty sure I said I disagreed with him on his dismissal of the findings of natural philosophers. In not, let me clarify that now. I've always been a fan of the natural philosophers because their ideas work. But then again, at heart I'm a utilitarian. If it works, don't screw with it.
If liberty were not a natural human right, then why do societies based on slave labor tend to be prone to uprisings and general discontent than societies based on free labor?If liberty were natural, there would be no societies with slavery at all! Ever!
- 90
- ledefensetech
- 2876 posts
- Joined: 8 months ago
- Hubs: 16
- Fans: 106
Aya Katz wrote:
If liberty were natural, there would be no societies with slavery at all! Ever!
Incorrect. Humans have free will, which includes the ability to act against natural law. I'm sure we can all think of situations in which acting against the concept of liberty has had severe consequences.
You can cheat natural law for a time, but things have a habit of returning to the state of natural equilibrium. 
98- cosette
- 1897 posts
- Joined: 5 months ago
- Hubs: 103
- Fans: 379
Misha wrote:
There is not a such thing. It's an artificial construct.
haha you're so wicked
ledefensetech wrote:
Aya Katz wrote:
If liberty were natural, there would be no societies with slavery at all! Ever!
Incorrect. Humans have free will, which includes the ability to act against natural law. I'm sure we can all think of situations in which acting against the concept of liberty has had severe consequences.
You can cheat natural law for a time, but things have a habit of returning to the state of natural equilibrium.If it were natural law, then it couldn't be cheated against at all.
What we have is cycles of relative freedom followed by relative tyranny followed by relative freedom and so on, ad infinitum. What I'm describing is a state of equilibrium. It's the pendulum's equilibrium.- 90
- ledefensetech
- 2876 posts
- Joined: 8 months ago
- Hubs: 16
- Fans: 106
Aya Katz wrote:
If it were natural law, then it couldn't be cheated against at all.
What we have is cycles of relative freedom followed by relative tyranny followed by relative freedom and so on, ad infinitum. What I'm describing is a state of equilibrium. It's the pendulum's equilibrium.Sure it could be cheated against. Look at paper money. Every time it's been adopted, you get rampant inflation and a destroyed currency. Every time. Yet people are willing to try over and over again to attempt a fiat currency. It's goes against the laws of classical economics, but people are free to go that direction.
What always seems to happen is that gold and silver are adopted as currency after the economic collapse of the fiat money system.
The reason we go back and forth between things like tyranny and freedom (or sound money vs fiat money) is because people forget. We've had a historical record for thousands of years, yet people still forget and attempt various pipe dreams.
Yet those attempts only prove the validity of those laws. If those laws didn't exist, what is the force that keeps pulling things towards equilibrium? Why not a society based on tyranny that lasts forever? ledefensetech wrote:
Aya Katz wrote:
If it were natural law, then it couldn't be cheated against at all.
What we have is cycles of relative freedom followed by relative tyranny followed by relative freedom and so on, ad infinitum. What I'm describing is a state of equilibrium. It's the pendulum's equilibrium.Sure it could be cheated against. Look at paper money. Every time it's been adopted, you get rampant inflation and a destroyed currency. Every time. Yet people are willing to try over and over again to attempt a fiat currency. It's goes against the laws of classical economics, but people are free to go that direction.
What always seems to happen is that gold and silver are adopted as currency after the economic collapse of the fiat money system.
The reason we go back and forth between things like tyranny and freedom (or sound money vs fiat money) is because people forget. We've had a historical record for thousands of years, yet people still forget and attempt various pipe dreams.
Yet those attempts only prove the validity of those laws. If those laws didn't exist, what is the force that keeps pulling things towards equilibrium? Why not a society based on tyranny that lasts forever?Why not a free society that last forever?
Misha wrote:
There is not a such thing. It's an artificial construct.
Forgive me for being so un-eductional, but what is an artificial construct?
- 93
- RooBee
- 1044 posts
- Joined: 7 months ago
- Hubs: 32
- Fans: 435
Aya Katz wrote:
RooBee wrote:
Aya Katz wrote:
Roobee, are you saying that mutilating girls' private parts is a human rights violation, but mutilating boys' private parts is not?
No, but that is exactly the conundrum that I was trying to get at.
By rites-of-passage, I mean things like the Sun Dance or Vision Quest that some Native American young people go through at certain points in life. The Maori tattooing. Things like that.
The Sun Dance -for instance -is brutal, painful, and could be looked at as quite horrid by outsiders. However, the men choose to participate in it (yes, it could be argued that they only do so because they have been essentially brainwashed by their own leaders).
As for the genital mutilation, it is not okay by me for that to occur to a male OR a female. These are cases where cultural relativism is a (poor) excuse to commit acts of abuse. The lack of education provided such victims serves only to perpetuate the farce that it is somehow a matter of culture.
I don't think I'm being clear because there is no clear-cut answer to this question. But in direct answer to your question: A resounding NO!!!
Edit: Are you referring to circumcision as performed in developed countries (which is very different than the female genital mutilation I'm thinking of)?Okay, I'm glad we agree that it doesn't matter if you're a girl or a boy.
Now, you seem to be bringing up another issue: does it matter whether it is done under medical supervision and/or anesthetic in a clean and hygienic manner?
No, I don't think that matters, either.
Would you support female circumcision in a hospital by a surgeon?Sorry - had to exit for a while, just getting back.
The form of circumcision practiced by surgeons today does not inhibit the boy's sexual function or ability to feel pleasure once he does become sexually active whereas removal of a girl's clitoris - well, not much elaboration is needed there.
So, no - I would not support female circumcision even if it were performed in sanitary conditions unless there were some very very compelling hygenic reasoning behind it that I'm as yet unaware of.
On the subject, while I did decide to have my son circumcised it was only after much soul-searching and consulting with other males (both 'cut' and 'uncut' ones). A good friend of mine opted not to have it done on his boy and I very much respect his decision & I really don't think either of us is 'right or wrong.' I also, of course, collaborated with my son's father since he had some good insights that I as a woman hadn't even considered.
On another note, I'm all intrigued by this talk of your father's writing. I'll have to check it out!!!
