The Lightning Process Didn't Work For me

Shedding light on the lightning Process

PHIL PARKER’S LIGHTNING PROCESS DIDN’T WORK FOR ME.

The Lightning Process is the latest 'miracle' cure for M.E and Chronic Fatige. It is shrouded in mystery because they drill it into participants that if they tell anyone about it it won't work.. It has worked for some people but not for others. It is based on affirmations and counteracting negative thoughts if you are already familiar with such things it will not be anything new for you. I paid £550 to go on the course because I couldn't find out what it was really about. This is why I have written this.

There were four of us on the course. The morning of the first day was spent ‘proving’ mind over matter by showing us DVD’s interspersed with talks from the tutor, a stout woman in her late fifties, telling us about people who had being wrongly diagnosed with cancer and then died anyway.

‘That’s how powerful your mind is,’ she trilled and didn’t cite the many cases of people wrongly diagnosed with cancer who gave away all their money only to find themselves still alive and then sue the NHS - as was on the radio recently. We were shown optical illusions, pictures where one way it looks like an old woman, one way a young one and another one of an elephant with varying numbers of legs depending on how you looked at it. She kept pointing to her large sofas and telling us stories about people who had lain there unable to move at the start of the course and were walking again by the third day and then back at work/school by the following Monday (the course was mid week). I liked this bit. Before the course I could already walk, I could even work part time, but I still slept afternoons, travel exhausted me and nights out left me sleepless and overwrought. If others went from nothing to being able to work in four days I was sure to get well. I believed it could work. My basic attitude was I have paid £550 for this (borrowed money as I am on benefits) I am going to do what they say.

The first thing was to take responsibility for our illness. I had to stop saying I had M.E. Instead I have to say I am ‘doing M.E’, I wasn’t tired, I was ‘doing tired and doing muscle aches’. The implication being if I am doing it I can stop doing it. I wasn’t sure what I thought about this, but it didn’t matter because I didn’t get to put it into practice much on the course as you are not encouraged to talk about how you are. This was because we are going to concentrate on the positive which at the time seemed fair enough. The facilitator was telling us more and more stories about the people she had cured. One of them even phoned up while we were having lunch and the phone was passed round the table so we could all talk to her. By that time I was up really up for it, we all were, whatever the process was, I was going to do it with all my heart.

In the afternoon session we were told that the reason we had M.E is that we have negative thoughts. Every time we have them our adrenal glands give us ‘a squirt of adrenaline’ this builds up and stops your body functioning properly.

The Lightening Process would stop this happening. This was a miracle. The five hundred and fifty pound wonder.

The tutor stood up. ‘To stop this you have to get up and say ‘Stop’ make a physical movement, step back or cross your wrists in a pushing away movement.’ And she did the movement for us. Then she showed us how to go through an affirmation/self-coaching process, which I think is copy righted so I’ll paraphrase. You ask yourself if you want to choose happiness. Which you obviously do and then you say how fantastic you are to have stopped the negativity thought. You ask yourself what you really want, then you answer yourself, and again ask yourself how you are going to get there. The answer of course is to keep doing the process, getting rid of those negative thoughts. Then you tell yourself how great you are again and maybe have a bit of a hug with yourself, then…….. no nothing, that’s it.

Kerching. Five hundred and Fifty pounds please.

I was a bit perturbed at this point because I have been doing affirmations and therapy for many years so I am not blighted by the kind of negativity that can be emotionally crippling, and when I first discovered that it was wonderful. But I discovered it in a book that cost £3.50 now I it seemed I had paid £550 for the same lesson.

However the mere fact I had paid so much money meant I was going to do exactly as they told me, it had worked for others and it could work for me. We were told to do The Process thirty times that evening. I went back to my guest house and did as I was told. I spoke to my loved ones but when they asked how it went I was reluctant to talk about it. The tutor said that if we tell people about the process if won’t work. That’s right, to talk about the process means it can’t work for you. She also told had told us no matter how she feels she tells everyone she ‘feels fabulous’. I wasn’t quite ready to tell people I felt fabulous but equally I didn’t tell anyone how much the first day had tired me because that is a negative thought and that must be countered, so I did my thirty processes, went for a walk and then to bed.

The second day when I turned up there was three big posters saying, ‘DON’T TALK ABOUT HOW YOU ARE UNTIL THE SESSION STARTS’. I soon realised once it did start that is so the tutor can control everything. She didn’t ask me if I felt better she asked what I did the night before, I said, ‘I did the Process and I went for a walk’ she said, ‘Sally, went for a walk, hooray’ like it was a victory for the Lightning process but as I said my M.E is moderate and I go for a walk everyday, but no-one would have known.

As the day went on I was getting more and more tired. By mid-afternoon I was slumped in my seat watching yet another video about how the brain makes us over-produce adrenalin and how The Process can stop it. But I had been doing the process and it hadn’t stopped it. All the tutor’s happy chat about even more people she had cured were starting to sound stale.

I was not the only one who looked knackered. One of the blokes started asking questions about why he doesn’t feel what they say on the DVD.

‘It’s a three day process’ she snaps and makes him do the Process.

Any awkward question for the rest of the session was answered with ‘It’s a three day process,’ or anything even more awkward she says we can ask in the individual sessions we are having the next day.

If anyone says anything she thinks is negative we are interrupted and corrected.

At one point she left the room. It felt very naughty but I whispered to one of the woman sitting next to me ‘how are you, is this working for you?’. She was reluctant to answer, to say anything but that she was doing well would be to go against the process because that is a negative thought. It was pointless asking really.

Still I wanted it to work, but I was starting to worry about the fact that I was not only not feeling any better the effort of doing the course, not getting my normal rest was making me feel worse.

But these were negative thoughts. I started to ruthlessly suppress them like I had been shown.

Yes by that evening I was doing the Lightning Process to counteract my thoughts about the Lightning Process itself.

The next day I still felt no different. I went and had my one to one session and when I told her that she said I was being negative (of course) and that I must keep doing the process at home and it would work. But on the course I was told that the reason it was called 'lightning process' was that because it worked liked lightning (they even produced diagram with a graphic of some lightning in case we didn't get it. I got the concept, it just wasn't happening.) From all the literature I was sent prior to parting with borrowed money to go on the course, were testimonials saying how fast it had worked. No body said it didn't work on the course but it did later. Also I realised when you fill in the form you have to say whether you question things, this is because they don’t want anyone on the course who does. They need to control everything. You are not allowed to talk about how you are because that is being negative. In the session anything I even hinted to this effect was countered with that I was being negative. So we moved on to what else she could do for me. I said one of my biggest problems was being exhausted but unable to sleep. So we did a visualisation that involved a pressure point on my hand and she said whenever I couldn’t sleep I could just rub that point.

‘There you are you are cured,’ she said so happily that I could see in her mind where no negative thoughts ever creep, I was. She was clearly thrilled with herself. I wanted to believe her and tried it for the next few nights, of course to no avail.

The lightning process is supposed to be NLP and osteopathy. I could see no osteopathy, the only movement on the course I attended was the stop movement and the pressure point on my hand I mentioned above. The woman who ran the process had been cured herself so maybe they have got something. I didn’t disbelieve he, she had a large house with a spare flat that she no longer needed to rent out due to how much she was making from peddling the lightning process to desperate people like me.

To give her her due she did drive me to and from the station and after the course offered to work with me for free on the phone. So I accepted that but found out that working with me involved her telling me to keep working the process because it worked and arguing with my objections saying I hadn't given it time and that I was being negative.

She kept saying 'keep doing it cos it works,' and had nothing to say when I said I had kept 'doing it'. She said I had given up so soon. I was told it had a 93 % success rate. On my course of four it seemed to work for one person and had an impact on another, but for two of us it failed completely.

Phil Parker who invented this process charges £1000 for his three day courses and has over 20 people per course. He should put some of that money into doing a proper clinical trial. It must be easy to wire people up to see if they get a squirt of adrenaline when they have negative thoughts. Maybe that does happen for some people but not all. Some people do get cured but not me.

I wished they asked on the application form if I was plagued with negative thoughts and whether I had worked with affirmations before I could have told them No, and Yes. Then they would have known their process was nothing new for me.

This article is part of a book I am writing a book about all the things I have tried for M.E/CFS. So far chapters include Chinese medicine, Kinesiology, Parasites, Private Medicine, Reike, Thyroid and Adrenal tests, Colonic Irrigation, The Dr Myhill Cure, Supplements, Raw Food & Juicing, Meditation, Pacing, Homoeopathy, The 5:2 Diet, Allergy Reduction Treatment, Gut Antiobiotics and more. If this blog has saved you money and you would like to give a pound towards the book's publication (and see a preview chapter) then please go to http://www.comedycourses.biz/m-e-book-fund/

Thank you.

Comments 203 comments

Ali Newton 7 years ago

Hello Sallycats Many thanks for writing about this in a very readable qnd informative way. I have wondered what actually happens with the LP.and I now know. Im not surprised it doesn't work for lots of people! Wishing you well. Ali.


Harriet Lang 7 years ago

Hi Sallycats, thank you for writing so honestly about the Lightning Process. I have wondered about its usefulness for so long but feared it might turn out to be just as you have described it. I certainly don't need anyone else to tell me I don't want to be well or that my negative thoughts are the cause.

Best wishes from Harriet


R Cox 7 years ago

Many thanks for this. It's quite clear that if you have genuine ME this ain't going to work.

The phone call from the recovered patient on the first day is pretty classic dodgy salesmanship- rather like a timeshare ploy - definitely a plant!!!


Erik Johnson 7 years ago

Thanks for giving us your insights.

What on Earth could be more negative than yelling "stop" at yourself?

Shouldn't the psychiatrists be alarmed about any therapy which calls upon someone to be dishonest with themselves about how they are feeling?

Isn't the whole LP concept an anathema to mental health?


Beth 7 years ago

Thank you for writing this.

I had wondered if the Lightning Process fell into the "If it doesn't work it's because you don't believe it enough." category of 'cures'. I am shocked to see the addition of "If you tell anyone about it, it won't work."

With science like this Phil Parker will never conduct clinical trials or give permission for them.

You have answered my question and saved my money.


Sally 7 years ago

I just wanted to say thankyou for clearing up the 'wonder cure' of The Lightning Process. To be honest, it sounds very much how I had feared, a 'cult cure', if they want to help stop charging nearly £600 for something we are already aware of. Sadly in life no-one can be 100% positive 100% of the time.


roger 7 years ago

Sounds cult like.


Georgina 7 years ago

How sad to put down a training programme that has helped so many thousands of people move on in their lives. It certainly helped me and I will be eternally grateful


sam 7 years ago

thnaks for postin this info this "treatment" has been secret for far to long

its not on how its bein touted as a cure??? for me when it isn't ! and besides i couldn't afford it anyway

m.e is real physical illness


Tiger 7 years ago

Hi

Thanks for this. I have posted a link on my blog (Norwegian). Somehow this has become a hype in Norway. Everybody is talking about it as the one thing to cure ME. The success stories have been published in every newspaper. So everyone I know is pushing me to take this course. I am in the same position as you I think, so this was very useful. I will not spend 15000 kroner (about 1500£) on this...


loop loop 7 years ago

Hi Sonia, though the lightning process obviously works for some I have also seen it being devastating for others as the evangelical belief that is encouraged can cause people to push themselves way beyond sensible limits and cause them to become much worse than they were before they did the process. I do think that it's one of a handful of therapies following similar paths about how to calm down a runaway 'flight or fight' response.

I would recommend looking at Gupta Amygdala Retraining combined with the Emotional Freedom Technique as a gentler, cheaper and less risky way to approach the same problem.

If your daughter does go ahead with the LP I really would avoid anything to do with 'prooving' your belief in the technique by jumping straight back into things.

Best wishes for you daughters recovery.


Bård 7 years ago

There is no such thing as magic. The lightning process is not magic either but a receipt of hard work to get better. People are different and illnesses as well. And as others have stated the state of mind is very important in doing the lightning process.

I attended the lightning process in october last year, and I was at first also very disappointed about the appearant simplicity. But I was very dedicated to trying it out and it helped me a lot. And alrady first day I could feel how I got sudden energi from practicing LP.

After suffering from ME for 8 years I can now finally say I am totally well. That is I am not doing ME anymore! The illness might be there still. But I have no symptomes from it.

I contribute this half to LP and the other half to moving to a much healtier and stressless enviroment.

I had a great trainer in London and learned a lot from the stay, not only to help with my ME but also lessons that will help in other parts of my enriched life.

LP might not be for everybody and therefore they have a screening process. I also think reading the book about LP that you can order from their website will help people prepare and understand the course before attending is very important. It helped me a lot in understanding the concept before I went there.

Still 85% are said to get better from attending. I am very sorry it didn't help you. But knowing that you are one of the 15% that didn't benefit, maybe you should consider all the other people that thanks to LP have got a new and better life before totally discouraging others to try.

A friend of me went there with her daughter that had ME. The daughter totally nailed her ME and has taken up her studies and new life with such energy - it is almost unbelivable. The mother was so amazed that she tried it on her allergy and asthma, and I find it most amazing that after almost a life time on strict diet she now actually can eat almost anything - thanks to LP.

How is this possible just by thoughts one can say, but the power of mind is strong. More important, there are parts of the brain that controll many bodily functions, by stimulating these parts (or fooling them), they start sending correct signals to your body which in turn changes the chemistry of the body. This is briefly explained during the training.


Little one 7 years ago

So many 'fors' and 'against'. What I would like to know if most of the trainers claim to help over 85% why don't they offer a money back gaurentee? They should know that this is a last resort for most people that have already spent a lot of money trying to get better and for many it means borrowing money to attend a course. They seem to be booked up in advance and bringing in a good wedge from running these courses, why, if only 15% don't get anything from this do they not offer a refund??? Surely not a big loss for them.


Bobbi 7 years ago

Loved your review, SallyCats! My personal opinion is that the people this has worked for probably never actually had CFS to begin with. Thanks so much for helping people not waste their $. I wasted over $1,000 doing Reliv powdered drink supplements because everyone said it DEFINITELY WILL WORK. Very discouraging. The only thing I've found so far that helps me is taking the stimulant Dexedrine every day (or I am not able to be out of bed), but I'm still disabled & mostly homebound.


Michael Hicks 7 years ago

IT DOES WORK. It is very offensive to say to people who suffered for years and recovered through the Lightning Process never had ME! How do they know? Do they know the individuals intimately? I was almost bedbound, had severe visual and hearing sensitivities, joint pain, muscle pain, blurry eye sight, swollen glands, head, eye and neck pain, unable to read, watch tv. By day three all pain had gone, sensory sensitivities gone, fatigue largely gone, exercise tollerence increased rapidly over the following months. If this isn't evidence for it working I don't know what is!


James Watson 7 years ago

I see that the LP promoters and pushers have emerged from the murky depths to say that LP works for ME. Well, no it doesn't, it only works for those misdiagnosed people told that they had ME when they had/have anxiety issues/conditions. Good luck to them for getting better but they sure didn't have ME. Don't believe the expensive hype guys. To the above guy saying it's offensive, well matey, it's highly offensive to push pseudo-scientific clap-trap which is very expensive (needlessly so) to people who are desperate to get well and also to insinuate that those with ME who don't get better from the LP do so because it's their fault or they didn't do it right or, or or ad nauseum.... DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON THIS LOUSY SCAM WHICH IS MAKING SOME UNSCRUPULOUS PEOPLE RICH.


dave 6 years ago

Well said James!

Pip wrote:

"First of all, the Lightning Process is just that, a process. Like driving a car, or any skill, it is not something that "works" or doesn't.

Well here we have all we need to know about LP's definition of "ME" and ME sufferers. Apparently ME sufferers are not in fact sick with a serious enteroviral disease (classified as a neurological disease by the WHO), but just ignorant of how to "drive their cars". Manna from heaven for the money-raking life-coaching narcissist quacks and the psychosocial zeitgeist that happily allows these parasites to thrive.

No Pip, in genuine ME, the car's engine and fuel lines are well and truly smushed and no amount of "driving skills" or "good behaviour" etc is going to fix that, certainly nothing that involves ignoring the profound biological activity limitations. There are now hundreds if not thousands of research papers demonstrating pathology, and in the words of Komaroff et al, this argument should be over.

Sufferers like the late Sophia Mirza and Casey Fero did not die from a lack of knowing how to live, "stuckness", "wrong attitude", "faulty beliefs" or "deconditioning". To perpetuate these myths is an offense to their memory and dangerous for those struggling to still survive. The evidence is there in the spinal tissue and/or heart muscle.

There are plenty of services for people with genuine mental illnesses (now including LP though ppl shouldn't have to pay for it) so there's no need to hide behind M.E. as if it's some kind of politically correct shield. It's a disease not a charity. I don't blame anyone for wanting to "get out" of the abuse ME receives but you might have the decency not to heap more misunderstanding on the rest of us by abusing the term.

Perhaps some of the more charitable/deluded LPers would be quick to deny their denial of disease abnormalities and refer to CBT quackery that also makes extravagant claims of reversing brain injury etc. But IIRC Phil Parker was quite hostile to the concept of chronic viral infection. Will he be brave enough to "have a go" at AIDS next? Not likely.

To keep alluding to ME yet use the language that LPers use e.g. "I didn't have ME I was just 'doing' ME" is ridiculous, transparent and exploitative. In fairness though this situation wouldn't have come about without the bigotry and scientific incompetence of the CDC's "fatigue" moguls and UK CBT school propagandists, redefining "ME" into "CFS/ME" and meaninglessness.

"I was almost bedbound, had severe visual and hearing sensitivities, joint pain, muscle pain, blurry eye sight, swollen glands, head, eye and neck pain, unable to read, watch tv. By day three all pain had gone, sensory sensitivities gone, fatigue largely gone, exercise tollerence increased rapidly over the following months."

So you were almost bedbound with severe symptoms and exercise intolerance yet you managed to attend and keep up with an intensive three day course designed to push you beyond severe symptoms and exercise intolerance by ignoring them? And you didn't think it strange how much this ideology conflicted with your own experience? None of these symptoms are unique to ME BTW. You left out some of the more defining ones which people with conversion disorder probably won't have heard of. And you know as well as I do that the chances of being able to prove that you really did have ME in the UK are minimal as the appropriate tests are not being done.

Fans of LP may also wish to consider that before this fad came along, there were testimonials for many other miracle cures. Likewise many of these sufferers were misdiagnosed too. The number of so-called cures touted for a disease are in proportion to its incurability.

Go ahead and live your bloody lives, if it's such a success and you're in such control of your fates what do you care so much if others don't agree with you? Because there's profit involved? It's odd how so many of the just-glad-to-be-better become evangelists...


kirsty 6 years ago

I Have to say, I am shocked at the spiteful playground tactics that seem to be creeping out here.

I have done the Lightning process myself, and firstly am shocked at sally saying that we were told that we were not aloud to talk about it, when that was not the case at all!!!

And that it is called a miracle cure, when it is not! It is a training programme, "and they clearly make sure you know this when you are being interviewed"

For those of you who are spitefully saying that those of us never had ME in the first place. you should be ashamed of yourselves!!!

Who are you to judge so heavily???

are you doctors yourselves?

have you seen our MRI scans and all other test results we have had in the past?

have you been at our bedside when we couldn't even lift a cup?

or chew our food?

or listen to music?

look at daylight?

You are in no position to make such a statement just because it dosent fit into your own belief system.

Esspecially knowing How Me can affect people differently, and having dealt with it yourselves.

We have gone through pain and suffering for years - the same as you!

Would you like me to list the 40 plus symptoms i was experiencing???

I suggest you open your minds!.... that would be the first step to recovery!!!!!

The lightning process helped me get my life back! although i still do certain symptoms, they are nothing compared to what was before. And i feel the need to point out the only reason i am still experiencing some minor symptoms now is because I havnt been using it consistently! something we are also told! "If you are not consistent in using it, your results will also not be consistent"

You are changing neurological pathways! which takes 30 days! scientific fact!!!! go look it up on google!!!

I suggest you go get yourselves a book on NLP before making such heavy accusations!

or better than that....why don't you find an LP pratitioner and speak to them about it over the phone.....

and have some questions answered!!!

Peace


Tom 6 years ago

If anyone is going to say they're recovered, I want to hear how many hours they're working per week and what sort of work it is. If you're "just" a housewife/husband, you may not be testing your limits. Similarly if you give LP courses once every few weeks.

So please tell us how many hours you are working per week and the type of work.


Paul 6 years ago

Even if the Lightening Process does work, which I doubt, £550 is extortionate. Phil Parker and his cronies are making a forutne out of vulnerable people. How does he explain the many ME epidemics if it is all about negative thinking?

If you want to know about the real physiological problems people with ME have visit Byron Hydes website http://www.nightingale.ca At least Dr Hyde has spent years investigating ME and has examined thousands of people with it. Something Parker and Co cannot claim.


Anna 6 years ago

Isn't it interesting how all the posts I have read that are so damming are by people who are stil living with the condition,and happy to "make do" rather than open their mind. seems to me there is alot of personal fear here.Having having an " unhelpful subconscious thought" in relation to keeping you in the loop of ME is NOT the same as being a negative thinker. Self Talk is the most powerful tool it can create anything in your life. I have tried most things like others. I KNOW and have known that adrenal exhaustion has been at the root of my problem It seems sensible to me that if I can break the patteren of my "unhelpful thhoughts" that overstimulate my adrenal glands £600 or 6,000 to get my life fully back would be worth it. However, it is MY adrenaline, My life, my responsibility. perhaps all the anger and fear i see here is because those of you prefer to carry your comfort blanket of ME at a subconcious level.


Fran 6 years ago

I haven't done the LP, as I am suspicious, and scared in case it goes wrong, in case it is unpleasant, in case it doesn't work etc. Like a lot of people here I suspect. However, I have read a lot about the physiological impact of mind states/neurotransmitter patterns, so I have no problem believing that it could work scientifically. I just wanted to say, I agree with the point that it is possibly a question of personal responsibility. Who says that other people eg doctors can or even should make us better when we are ill? I know it is a legal right or whatever in this country, but that doesn't mean nature goes along with that, sometimes the doctors just don't know how to help, then we have to help ourselves.

One thing that does confuse me though, is that the people who say that ‘people who get better from the LP don't have me/cfs’, how do these people making these comments know that they themselves definitely DO have me/cfs, and that they definitely DON’T have the same thing that those people who recover have, considering they appear to have the same symptoms/immune disfunction/nervous system malfunction that those who do recover with LP have?? How do they biologically differentiate themselves from those who do get better from LP - do they just feel their symptoms are worse?? But this doesn't prove anything, in fact it all slightly seems to imply that although there are loads of immune/nervous system malfunctions in people with me/cfs, as there has been shown to be in various psychological states eg extreme anxiety, severe depression, panic attacks etc, it all seems to point to the fact that me/cfs is indeed strongly linked to stress levels/psychological states, unless these people that say ‘recovered people were not ill with me/cfs’, these people can clearly show that they are somehow suffering something completely different to those who have similar symptoms but who have recovered from the LP?? ie individually prove biologically that they are suffering from something completely different, and not just endlessly point to different symptoms, or not-so-different symptoms as often seems to be the case??


kirsty 6 years ago

Hi Fran...

If you want to talk about The lightning Process in depth, and to bug my brain on how it was to do it, then i will give you an honest experience. Though im not sure how to get my email to you without posting it on here, so any suggestions? sup to you hon.

Good Post!

;-)


Kirsty 6 years ago

And just from another perspective...

A friend of mine Sam has MS and is in a wheelchair. She has an array of symptoms, one of which is severe shaking. She has been like this, and gradually getting worse for years.

This is an apparently "Incurable degenerative disease". Stated by the WHO.

Sam Did the lightning process at the end of August. she has seen many minor changes to her condition since...but text me last night to tell me that she crossed and un-crossed her legs for the first time since having MS. Something That defies the medical proffession considering her situation.

This is proving to be such a breakthrough in the world of MS, that the "MS Association" is now researching this with Mr Phil Parker, who has been invited by the MS Association to do this.

Not the actions of cronies do you think?

I don't feel the MS Association would not even bother with this if it was all such a farse or a money making scheme as some of you seem to think.

Im so glad i spent the money doing the lightning process, and would do it all over again. It was an amazing enlightening experience. And taught me that i have the power to fix myself.

Please watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfKn92klPeU

Much peace...


Anna  6 years ago

How wonderful to witness the energy turn around on this subject and some real deep thinkers posting.

After research and an understanding of how the lightning process works. I am happy to do the course and the work. As I can see the value for me, the only person i can be responsible for is myself. And thank you Fran for supporting my belief that it is fear of failure, disapointment and the unknown that stops us your honesty is refreshing some of the earlier posts should perhaps read your words and wake up and smell the coffee! instead of doing down something that clearly works!


Bluebottle 6 years ago

There is no diagnostic test for M.E. and therefore claims of a cure cannot be verified. .

M.E. is classified as a physical, neurological illness by the World Health Organisation alongside e.g. MS and Parkinson's. it is highly unlikely that a form of self hypnosis and positive thinking, however expensive, can cure it.

Th people in my local M.E. group who have done LP have relapsed badly from being forced by the LP 'therapist' to increase their actiity levels without first addressing the underlying cause of our illness (which has not yet been discovered). They were not offered a refund, they were told they weren't doing it properly (how convenient for the 'therapist'!

Personally I am sick of the LP being zealously touted as a miracle cure, usually by those who stand to gain financially from it. It seems to be sold by a form of pyramid selling scheme and the man who invented it has no recognised medical qualifications.I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole no matter how many celebrities are paid to insist their relatives have recovered from it .

Let's have some proper biomedical research for a serious physical illness, and above all lets have a diagnostic test to stop people making easy money from our illness.


Kirsty 6 years ago

Im Sorry to see yet another negative email, esspecially after all the positive feedback and information from people.."Not celebrities" who have Helped themselves and other people to get better from using it.

I feel i need to strongly point out once again (as a lot of people don't seem to listen), That the lightning process never has been.... or has never claimed to be a miracle cure! It is a training programme (*something that is made very very clear before you start*), and like ALL training programmes, if you don't study or make the effort, then you will not get the results you are looking to get!

The lightning prcess has not been deamed a miracle cure by those who hope to gain financially from it! it has gotten the name from people who have used it and got themselves better in a miracle amount of time, because they understood that the mind ultimately affects the body! *This is now scientific fact and has been proven by quantum mechanics and the like!!!* please do your own research!

I also feel the need to strongly point out! that we were never *Forced* to do any activity above what we could already do. We were encouraged to try new things, and in a very compassionate way.

No practinioner can ever *force* anyone to go away and do anything. So i find this hard to believe. Sorry.

Also the Lightning process practinoner is there for you after you have completed the seminar, so if it isn't working for you, you can call them back time after time to discuss any problems that you may be having, so they can be sorted out and worked upon. something that also never gets mentioned in amoungst all negative the hype! So if its not working for them, why haven't they gone back to the practitioner? and if they are not happy with them, then why haven't they gone to phil parker himself?

As for biochemical research and diognostic tests...(as ive stated already not two posts up) The MS Association, has had such astounding effects from using the lightning process for people with MS that they are doing there own research on it, and have invited Phil Parker to work with them on this. Which he is doing!

But it still dosent seem to be good enough for those of you who choose to focus on the so called and often ficticous negatives of the lightning process. making them bigger than any of the positives could ever possibly get. because you choose to focus on them, instead of actually making up your own minds, doing your own research, calling up 3-4 maybe more practioners and asking them the same questions. finding people who have done it, and had positive results from it.

Which makes me sadly realise that regardless of research and how many people are actually *getting better from it* there will always be an un-ending array of negative outlooks based upon chinese whispers, fear, and the comfort of not having to change the things that do not serve you, because they are easier to do.


Opinion B 6 years ago

Hi All

Ive been doing some research on the LP and found this interesting blog post from Sally.

I will first state that I am a Neuroscience and Neuropharmacology Graduate as well as studying NLP after Uni. I currently have ME/CFS for 4 years and have done quite a bit of my own study into the various areas.

Here is my opinion.

The NLP Process that Phil Parker and his associates call the Lightening Process can be useful and can help a certain number of ME/CFS sufferers get better from this condition. In fact Ashok Gupta and The Optimum Health Clinic also use a variation of this process. A poster above got it right in saying that the OHC and Ashoks Amygdala Re-training program are much more sympathetic with the process. In fact Alex Howard of the OHC co-created this process for use in ME/CFS when he worked for Phil Parker.

However for Alex it became quite clear that this process is often only part of the problem for a large number of sufferers. And worryingly-the extent that they encourage patients to apply the LP can often lead to re-lapses. This is because the LP is very pushy in its implementation - and from the sounds of many LP patients - there are some sub-standard evangelical practitioners who don't really know what to do if it doesn't work - apart from unfairly criticize the LP patients.

LP is not a miracle cure. It is an NLP process that simply switches off the mal-adaptive stress response present in the HPA axis/Amygdala (hence Ashoks 'Amygdala Retraining program'.). For some ME/CFS patients - there are subconsious continual negative thoughts that are triggering the release of stress hormones in the body-and those hormones over long time periods cause a whole host of problems in the body.

This process is actually very insidious - and often people don't realise it is going on - and reject the idea. However - the experience of ME/CFS is so difficult and traumatic, and people are often so exhausted - it is very likely they are at some level having negative thoughts about their experience.

That is why I would advise ALL people with CFS/ME to learn this process. You can go to The Optimum Health Clinic or buy the Amygdala Retraining Program (and get your money back at the end if you like)...and learn it through there. It is a very useful process to know - and it could really help your situation.

With my current knowledge I would say that doing this type of treatment alone may help 1/3 of sufferers. It will help others tho but not soley. This statistic is from someone 'in the know'...Having heard from many who have done the LP and not recovered (or relapsed) - I think it is highly unlikely that the statistic of 85% is real. What 'is' likely is that the statistic of 85% is a reasonable number for people to believe and still feel compelled to sign up for the course...cynical as that sounds...

I would NEVER take anything away from people who have got better using the LP - they should be applauded - as it is not easy to apply this process rigorously - and they will have worked hard. It is incorrect and highly unfair to claim they did not have 'real' ME/CFS. That is silly because ME/CFS is just a variety of fatigue related issues and differently expressed in many people. The traditional classification is really not useful at all - they just don't understand the disease process at all! This is coming from someone who studied this area as a Scientist. There is no point in clining to the WHO classification-it is much better to investigate the various processes in the alternative world that actually ARE working for people. Yes I know many people that have recovered fully!


Opinion B 6 years ago

There is another issue that is not touched upon with the LP - and that is the role of Emotions in ME/CFS. Some of you may have heard of Reverse Therapy. Having wasted a large amount of money on it myself-I would NOT endorse this treatment - however there ARE some good elements in it. However their delivery is too simplistic and clumsy - and for many like me - again it will not work. Of course like the LP - they use this fraction of truth and usefulness to claim it is THE CURE. It is not - however for some ME/CFS sufferers learning to be more in contact with an express their emotions can be a big part of the picture. Also many ME/CFS sufferers have been through emotionally traumatic experiences that have affected them. This may sound funny - but actually our emotions are a crucial feedback mechanism in our body - and often sufferers have lost contact with this essential resource. If this is compounded over years from behaviors learnt as children - the body appears to have systems in place to alert us there is something wrong - and it appears our suppressed emotional energy can also start to trigger our stress response / HPA axis. There are many cases and people I know who have got better from ME/CFS where the emotional component was the most significant factor.

The Gupta Program and LP do not treat this aspect. The Optimum Health Clinic do. This is not a straight forward fix and can take a while - and it is beyond the scope of this post...

I explored all the traditional alleys before turning to these alternative treatments. I entered as a skeptic - but slowly have worked away and understood the efficacy of these processes. It can be hard for people to understand how our mind can affect the physiology of our body so dramatically - but that is because in western medicine there was a line draw between our mind and body by Descartes. Most now realise this is wrong - and in fact the subconscious mind IS the body - they are as one.

Now, having given some support to the Mental and Emotional stress elements of ME/CFS I will also say that many patients need to receive extensive therapy in the following areas AS WELL as the above.

Mitochondrial assistance

Adrenal fatigue supplementation

Mineral Supplementation

Gut Disbiosis treatment (inc Candida)

Thyroid Treatment

Dietary changes

And more...

The key is that a CFS/ME Patient works on the Mental, Emotional AND physical areas of ME/CFS. This is working on their health from ALL angles. They are often all part of the complex puzzle that is creating the symptoms.

The way that the LP is advertised is unethical in my opinion. Its selling techniques and its in course tactics of 'not talking about' are quite scary. I do suspect Sally's practitioner was not a good one. Also it may have been the case that she didn't apply as well as she could have. But it is also likely that the LP did not get to the root of her particular ME/CFS condition.

If anyone wants to learn the NLP Process I would buy Ashoks program and do it. However considering that The Optimum health Clinci recently won the CAM Magazine 'Outstanding Practice of 2009' award - I would recommend them above all else - as they treat ALL aspects of CFS/ME using a whole host of different therapies configured to the individual-including the physical aspects above. They also don't tell you that you are doing it wrong if you don't get better...that is TERRIBLE treatment!

Good luck to everyone battling this difficult condition...

Much love

x


Irina 6 years ago

Yes,Ashok Gupta's programme will be a much better option of NLP for CFS. I am speaking from my personal experience. It's more compassionate, more comprehensive (several technics, apart from NLP and osteopathy, plus his full guidance), much cheaper, plus, most importantly, he refunds you the money if it doesn't work for you. I did it and it didn't work for me, unfortunately. I send his DVD back to him and got my money back. Nothing is lost. Plus, DVD was as my disposal every time I needed it, and not just the notes from 3 day course.

So, if you absolutely need to try it, please do. But don't expect that you will necessarily be cured. There's so much more to ME than adrenaline squirt and negative thoughts. As we all know. I think that only the most naïve ones can be tricked into doing LP now. But if you do - good luck to you. And remember - you won't see your money again.

Ira


Bluebottle 6 years ago

LP is advertised for free in an almost evangelical way in letters to newspapers, youtube videos, magazine articles etc. etc. No criticism of what seems to me a dubious process aimed at the gullible is ever allowed. Phil Parker's youtube vidoes do not allow comments or ratings.

The people promoting LP so zealously, wrapping it up in pseudoscience, all stand to make large amounts of money from it.

We need proper biomedical research for our physical, neurological illness, not yet more psychobabble - we can have that for free in bucket loads from the NHS.


Opinion B 6 years ago

Bluebottle - why dont you actually find out what the nature of the LP is before slating it? Maybe read my posts above? Ok it is run in an unethical way - but considering 'some' get results from it - don't you think it deserves some research from yourself rather than sitting passive-aggressive in the safety of cynicism?

Its all very well calling for clinical trials - but do you actually know what that entails? It is extremely costly and difficult to set up.

The way the medical system is structured is that any modern treatment usually goes through a period of being rejected by peers if it even minutely steers away from the status-quo. It can take years for novel therapies to be accepted even with clinical trials supporting them. Now days the majority of trials are funded by Universities and/or rich drug companies. Do you want to wait around for that? Or do you want to investigate treatments the ARE working for people? Im not just talking about the LP here. Im saying that the best 'clinical trials' we have in regard to CFS/ME are those trials in REAL LIFE. Studying people who are or have got better.

And don't forget as I posted above that this is coming from someone who has conducted his own research in Molecular Biology.

The wheels of Sientific research move VERY slowly and I for one do not want to wait 5-10 years for a treatment that could help me - to be accepted into the mainstream.


Bluebottle 6 years ago

I do know the nature of LP, I have spoken to a number of genuine M.E. sufferers who have been made worse by it.

My personal belief is that those who are finding results from LP do not have neurological myalgic encephalomyelitis, but chronic fatigue caused by a mild mental disorder. That is why a psychological approach has worked for them, but they could have had this for free on the NHS.

There is no diagnostic test for M.E. and it's odd that clients undertaking the LP are so very carefully vetted beforehand.

One of the people repeatedly promoting LP by claiming it as a cure in letters and articles has been Vikki Rimmer, who consistently failed to mention that she was until recently employed as Phil Parker's press agent. I guess that most of the people promoting it (and the other psychological 'cures') here are also financially motivated to do so.

The LP a commercial enterprise and I am extremely concerned about the way it is marketed to desperate, vulnerable people, may of whom live on benefits.

I repeat that M.E. is classified by the WHO as a physical, neurological illness and genuine sufferers can be as positive as they like, they will still be ill. The many pathogens and mitochondrial dysfunction involved in the illness need biomedical research and treatment.


Opinion B 6 years ago

From what you have said it appears you don't really understand the true aspect of this NLP process. It is not merely positive thinking - it is a specific sequence of actions that acts to switch off a chronic physical stimulation mechanism-a physical process going on in the Hypothalamic-Pituitary Axis..

This chronic stimulation is based in the sympathetic nervous system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_nervous_s...

The WHO have classified ME as a Neurological disorder - but they do not know the disease process and have no real effective treatment.

If you understand the NLP process that LP and others use - you will see that it acts on controlling the Nervous system. So actually it is not a mental process and it does not mean that if the LP works on someone - then they had a mild mental disorder. That is a cruel and inflammatory comment I think - as many people suffered ME/CFS symptoms for years before getting better from these types of processes. Chonic stimulation of the nervous system leads to a huge set of physiological problems that range from terrible fatigue to Candida to Adrenal Fatigue etc...

I argue this case because it is a common reaction for people to be sensitive about these NLP processes because they believe it insinuates that ME/CFS is all 'in their head' - which is absolutely not the case! These processes use psychology to control the body.

I have seen people argue against this stuff as a defensive reaction - defending their physical experience and the fact that they are not 'mad'. Hiding behind WHO and other traditional classifications - even when the traditional methods are producing no results or decent explanation - and in the alternative field people are getting better.

Yeah Im just another random on the internet - but I ask people - it really pays to have an open mind - especially when the traditional model has little to offer. People need to examine their motives in staying loyal to areas of medicine which are not helping them get better. I do understand how scary it is to have this illness - and how unfair it is to us when people think it might be 'all in our head' when we are so physically ill. I understand how difficult it can be to let go of the idea that western medicine has all the answers-because when we are ill-our way of understanding our situation is like our life . However if any condition exposes the gaping holes in western medicines ability to heal - it is ME/CFS. Western Medicine is better at treating and undertsanding acute disease processes - more functional and chronic illness (ME/IBS and so on) are generally poorly understood.

That is why progressive Clinics like The Optimum Health clinic are getting results and winning awards like the CAM magazine Outstanding Practice of the year award...


Fran M 6 years ago

Hi,

Just want to say thank you to the "real/orignal" Opinon B poster (Neuroscience and Neuropharmacology Graduate as well as studying NLP after Uni guy). Your points are well put and obviously come from an educated knowledge base.

I will be looking into the optimum health clinic.

The LP has been driving me crazy for a year now. It made me think CFS/ME can be cured by thoughts and holding/visualising yourself differently/more positively so I pushed myself through feeling rough. I'm now feeling loads worse as have taken no real care of all the other aspects of treatment/management, like resting :).

I haven't done the LP because I think it's under researched, over priced and one dimensional. I wish they'd put some of the vast amounts of money they earn into getting proper randomised control tests done. Also, where are the proper statistics? 85% of what, 10 well selected people, or everyone who's done it?

CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) is a much better and safer way of getting to the root of any emtional and pschological issues that may be lying underneath.

Diet, exercise (graded), fresh air and daylight, supplements, yoga, stretching, meditation, regular circadian rhythm, regular rests, not burning out by doing something for too long, something else to focus on (ie a target/goal to work towards each day), acceptance of this new you, positivity towards self/life, good posture, mindfulness of how you are doing an activity and what you're thinking (ie not buzzing at 10,000mph and stressing out) and where possible good friends and family around you. Trying to be as "normal" as possible within your limitations, so you feel you have a life, is, to me, very important.

Thanks again original Opinion B, and Sally for the article.

Best,

Fran x


Bluebottle 6 years ago

The Whittmore Peterson Institute in the US have today announced that they have found the retrovirus XMRV in the majority of M.E. sufferers they have tested. This is the virus that causes prostate cancer.They are now drawing up plans to test antiretroviral drugs on M.E. sufferers, similar to those used on HIV sufferers.

Thank goodness there are brave and honest people trying to unravel the complexities of this horrible, debilitating neurological illness from which people have died.

Those M.E. sufferers who think that a medically unqualified 'therapist' with a few hours training in positive thinking and other smoke and mirrors psychobabble, who has bought a franchise and has a financial interest in promoting their product, are actually offering them a 'cure',are welcome to part with their £600+.

It looks exactly like snake oil to me.


Mind 6 years ago

Was going to write something....but cant be bothered to bash my head on an ever increasing wall....


Opinion B 6 years ago

Interesting about the Virus. However its quite possible that the virus is yet another symptom rather than a cause. A symptom of a poorly functioning immune system, and thus not the root cause. Perhaps it is a significant factor tho. They did have a relatively small sample at 98 patients.

I will be interested how this research goes.

Yes it does seem some people just prefer to stick with their own beliefs instead of being open to ideas. I have made a quite comprehensive argument and said my piece.


Opinion B  6 years ago

I'm a little teapot short and stout


Opinion B.1 6 years ago

I just wanted to add my experience having suffered with ME for 10 years and gone on the Lightning Process and recovered. I am of a similar opinion to Opinion B.

I would have been incredibly annoyed if I thought the process had implied that I had not *really* experienced the difficult physical sensations that I had lived with for years. However, the lightning process did not claim this. Nor did it deny links with viral infections. In fact it was put forward as an explanation on the course that ME often originates in a viral infection combined with severe stress.

If anything, the suggestion is that emotional stress HAS a physical impact and to an extreme degree. It can trigger the release of adrenaline, which in turn increases the sensation of fear and nervousness - fight or flight. And after the body has been flooded with adrenaline? Well the body is exhausted, achey after the muscles have been flooded with chemicals, and resources taken up with recovery.

The argument is that in ME sufferers, worries and negative thoughts have become "linked" neurologically to a stress reaction and release of adrenaline (like pavlov's dogs, trained to salivate at the sound of a bell). Every negative thought has adrenline turned on like a dripping tap.

The only way to stop this is to RETRAIN the brain's reactions to stress/negative thoughts. The only way to retrain your brain is to launch a big offensive! ie: repeatedly, maybe 100s of times a day, using the lightning process when you have negative thoughts. And being able to identify that a thought IS negative, even if you think it sounds justified and deny it is negative to yourself at first.

Normally, you would have a negative thought, worry, start feeling tired, sit down and dwell on the thought. The lightning process makes you stop dwelling, think of something else and uses positive physical movements, so using your front brain and motor cortex. So THESE are the mental processes/pathways in the brain, that instead become associated with that initial negative thought.

Eventually, you have retrained your brain and you don't need to do the process often at all. If ever. And it is true, it can work from the start, IF you do to process on every negative thought. So it COULD "work" right away. For me it was a longer process. And your brain doesn't WANT you to do it. I had to fight myself. I refused to believe some thoughts were negative at all.

I am not arguing that every case of ME, however diagnosed is the same. I just wanted to explain my understanding of what I went through on the lightning process. And it turned my life around.

Also, £600? Well, it isn't on the NHS so these people have to make a living. Hopefully one day, the course will be funded. I felt I got a lot for my money. Compared to the amount some people are happy to pay for so many other pursuits. Be careful - that you get a properly accredited practitioner. That is everything. And the reason for the secrecy about the details? Well I understood that and didn't find it suspicious. If you don't get the full course and understand the problem, and understand how to identify the negative thoughts, and fully understand the process, IT WON'T WORK. Yes, they want to stay in business too. Why should they, you ask? - Well most people couldn't do this themselves even given the detail. I needed the course and the full explanation. It was crucial for me.


Opinion B.1 6 years ago

Apologies for taking up so much space, but I just wanted to add this, after rereading what Bluebottle said.

I have suffered with numerous viral infections in my life, and do feel this was a crucial part of the ME. I had a very bad case of Chicken Pox in my teens, glandular fever, and two types of vicious Epstein-barr viruses. Flu symptoms are what I feel every time I'm run down with anything. In ME it is what I felt everytime someone banged a door or I worried about something.

However, the lightning process still worked for me. These viruses seemed to be activated when I was stressed and run down. The process taught me a different reaction to negative thoughts and stress. It was HARD work, doing all those processes. Very. And you'd expect some hard work to get better from something that can ruin your life. The viruses haven't left me of course. But they just don't affect me anymore. I don't mean I don't still get outbreaks, I just don't care or worry when I do. And as a result it takes a normal course and goes away. Like it would for anyone.

Again, not in any way a comment on what might be found regarding the new research, but just my experience.


Bluebottle 6 years ago

Opinion B1 is obviously selling LP here.

xmrv is a retrovirus similar to HIV, LP will not cure it or the many pathogens that the body cannot rid itself of because of it

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=8864348

"we don't want to hear any more about depression or 'it's all in the mind', that game is over...

....we need to take this virus as seriously as HIV..."

Soon we will have a diagnostic test and quacks will no longer be able to make themselves rich from us.


Mind 6 years ago

My God bluebottle...

i cannot believe that you are so damn assuming

....and are being very judgemental.....

have you read anything of anyones threads?.... at all?

No-one here is saying its ALL IN THE MIND! they are saying the mind and the body are CONNECTED!

Do you Deny that???

you are picking out bits and mis-enterpreting them.

OpinionB1 didn't even mention depression, yet you have added that word in.

And because there is more than one person giving the lightning process a thumbs up its almost like you cant stand it, so then pull "Opinion B1 is obviously selling LP here"

I mean im totally gobsmaked at the rudeness to be honest...

No-one is denying ME bluebottle.... they are simply sharing how they have been helped by the process.

But you know what?

Your not even interested in it!!!

your only interested in slating it .......period!

im amazed!


Mike 6 years ago

I suppose LP witchdoctors will claim that negative thinking has caused the retrovirus, now thought to be thought to be the cause of CFS/ME, to somehow spring into being. Duh.

It's true, of course, that the brain and body are interconnected systems (see the placebo effect). Depression can adversely affect the immune system, but no one has ever proved that thinking happy thoughts can rid the body of a physical illness. And anyone who tells you that CFS/ME is not a physical illness doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. Where are the peer-reviewed studies into the Lightning Process? People who refuse to let others try to replicate their "results" in clinical trials almost always turn out to be quacks.

People with all kinds of illnesses, including CFS/ME, spontaneously recover. That doesn't mean that there's a causal relationship between whatever they were doing before they recovered and the remission of the illness.

Ill people tend to seek out cures when their symptoms are at their worst, and will invest so much emotionally in the cure that they will forget that their symptoms have always fluctuated, and the only way from "worst" is towards "better".

See "reversion to the mean". See "correlation does not imply causation".

People are getting rich off the general populace's ignorance ("ignorance" is not a pejorative, we're all ignorant of many facts) of basic statistics, or what counts as a proof (anecdotes most certainly do NOT constitute any kind of proof).

Read Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science" book & blog, also Simon Singh & Edzard Ernst's "Trick or Treatment" & arm yourself against those who would get rich from your ignorance.


Bluebottle 6 years ago

Don't throw your dollies out the pram,I only mentioned depression to quote Dr. Mikovits from the link posted.

She's Director of Research at the Whittmore Peterson Institute, a non-profit making institute in America where they are doing exciting biomedical research on M.E.


Bluebottle 6 years ago

from the publication Private Eye

"ME sufferers were stunned recently to receive threatening letters when they posted their views on the "Lightening Process", a programme that allegedly produces "amazing results" for people not only with ME but "anxiety, panic attack, over-eating, low self-esteem and guilt" too. When sufferers started reporting they had paid £600 for a course that did not work for the, they received warning of defamation proceedings if they did not recant."

(issue 1248, p10, about halfway down the "Legal News" section)


B1 6 years ago

Mind - I just want to say I am pleased you also responded after my post, otherwise I don't know what I would have thought!

I don't think anyone can have actually read what I said. I was trying to give a useful perspective in the hope it might help someone. All I can say is that my life was ruined by ME, I couldn't leave my flat without clutching and stair rail and crying, I suffered agrophobia and eventually was too physically exhausted to go out at all. I was very ill for 2 years and unwell in total for 10. It was a VERY physical thing.

I found a way to get my life back and it was the lightning process. I'm sorry if some people are annoyed by that. Feel free to assume what you have isn't what I had, but please don't accuse me of "selling LP" or lying. I was diagnosed with ME/CFS and nearly everything about my condition fits with every other story I have read.

If I had come across the kind of responses here when I was really ill, in reponse to a genuine effort to share my experiences, I would have given up completely!! Only pleased I didn't meet some of you guys at that time. Phew.


Jonty 6 years ago

Agrophobia is a mental condition.


B1 6 years ago

Thanks for replying - although, agrophobia was only one of the symptoms I mentioned. It was a bit unclear; I was just listing examples to ensure people I wasn't making up my condition for some reason after the earlier responses. The agrophobia came about as a result of feeling so tired and unable to cope. I was scared I would walk half way to my destination and then have to stop and not make it home again.

The mental and physical, including stress, fear, anxiety, viral outbreaks, exhaustion were intricately linked.


Jonty 6 years ago

Dear B1, When I list my M.E symptoms they are, exhaustion, deep muscle aches, very heavy legs, light sensitiivity, digestive disturbances and in the early days I had a fever every night and severe brain fog. Your list does seem to put the emphasis on the mental side. I'm not denying you had exhuastion and the LP cured you but when I went to the LP I didn't have the mental symptoms and despite doing everything they said it did nothing for me you need to accept that it doesn't work for everyone no matter how sincerely they do the process.


Bluebottle 6 years ago

Neil Riley MEA (published in Irish ME/CFS Association Newsletter, Autumn 2008:

I recently attended an ME Support Group, along with 8 other poor souls, and was ''Processed by Lightning''...

A ''40 minute talk by Emma, our LP Consultant, turned into a two hour ''Death by Power-Point'' seminar. I learnt all about how Emma, when younger had phobias, post-traumatic stress; anxiety, depression and then got a 'virus' on an exotic island (as one does). The 'virus settled' but she did not get better until she met Phil Parker and after Day One of the LP, she was better. Ah, bless.

We learnt all about the strenuous training the 'Consultants' undertake. Emma explained that it takes 12 months. Someone asked if that was full time. Oh, well 'no, it wasn't'. You just attend at weekends - 10 weekends - one each month - then you have an exam! So it takes 20 days at the European College of Holistic Medicine, Crouch End to be trained - not 12 months!

The Power Point Presentation goes on-and on- and on- (copyright 'Phil Parker LP. TM'). We are told the 'Myths of ME' - that people with ME have relapses'. I pointed out that it was not a myth. Well it is, according to the LP.

The Presentation states that it is perfectly possible to successfully and rapidly recover from ME. 'What diagnostic criteria do you use', I asked? Oh, said Emma, 'that's a very detailed question we can't go into now but ME, Post Viral Fatigue, Chronic Fatigue and Fybromyalgia are all similar conditions'. We were told that people who had been ill for 3 months up to 40 years have been cured; that there are now 120 consultants in this country and that dear Phil has been in the USA spreading the gospel...

And the way LP works? Illnesses can be cured by changing your thoughts. By turning all those negative thoughts into positive ones, you break the 'Adrenaline Loop' and build up the immune system which makes you all better. Sounds simple or simplistic? Examine the detail. Is there conclusive evidence that your immune system is underactive and requires building up? Is there conclusive evidence that positive thinking can cure physiological disease? If the reason you are not recovering from ME is a continuous high level of adrenaline, do practitioners measure this before you start the course and after you finished it? The answer to all three.. questions is 'No'. Conclusive evidence in the diagnosis and causation of ME is not yet here.

If you do the course and do not get better, remember it is not the fault of the LP, it is you. You're just not applying the training that you received and need to work harder! Do you get your money back? Ah, well no - you just have to keep on trying....

Reply With Quote


Julie 6 years ago

I think you had an incompetant trainer Sallycats who did not explain how LP works. I went on the course in April, not because I had ME but I had some anxiety problems, not severe but stopped me from taking on anything new. I found it fascinating, my trainer was brilliant, very clear and interested and helpful. It has taken me ages to work out how LP succeeds but this is what I think it does. Firstly you get into assuming it works for you by reading all the testimonials, they mention this on the course that why should you think you are dfferent to anyone else. The clue to my mind is that when you get stressed it takes 3 minitues for stress to leave the body(hormones etc). The process takes approx 3 mins to do. It is a structure that you follow with no distractions and using all the different therapies you coach yourself, detatch yourself etc. After 3 mins the stress leaves your body. Some people asked if you can do LP in bed. No because it is geared up to last 3 mins.


Bluebottle 6 years ago

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFGcKmdOVO0

LP - another view (Phil Parker has disabled ratings and comments on his youtube videos as so many disappointed customers were complaining about LP.


Gill 6 years ago

I am very grateful to you for posting this message and describing your experience. I was curious about the process and when


Gill 6 years ago

oops....I submitted my comment before I had finished it....As I was writing...I was curious about the process and when I read the curriculum it didn't seem to include techniques which are any different which are used by therapists, which include working with the belief system and the intrapsychic process. I am very aware that our early programming impacts the way we function in the world and I do think that affirmations and positive thinking can work if practiced. Louise Hay has used them for years and she has written a very interesting book called Heal Your Life. There is a list at the back of her book and you can look up the physical problem and the mental cause. She also uses affirmations.

Another book is Getting Well Again by O Carl Simonton, Stephanie Matthews-Simonton and James Creighton. They combine their medical knowledge about the body with their knowledge about the mind and psychology. It is an interesting read and has some really good exercises in it. The Joy of Burnout by Dina Glouberman is also an interesting read and contains some great exercises.

I think there is great value in these techniques but I think charging £500 is, well, excessive and in my opinion obscene and unfortunately it is the people who are most vulnerable and who are desperate for a quick fix who are victim to these claims.


Gill 6 years ago

Other practices which I consider useful are yoga, meditation, mindfulness, focusing, co-counselling.

Any practice which helps us to regain homeostasis is beneficial on all levels and to all our systems, conscious and unconscious.


Gill also 6 years ago

CBT will work with the cognitive element. Ashok's ideas are well explianed but I do not think these are new ideas. I have researched this field in some depth and my impression is that he has found yet another way to package the same knowledge.


oi 6 years ago

I have done the lightning process . I have M.E and other health problems. I have tested for high cortisol for nearly two years, tests and re tests. Whether I am calm or not, cortisol is high everytime. They scratch their heads, they can't pin point it, the same as the other illness I have. No cure, just help with the symptoms. Is the LP so different. It has cost hundreds on the NHS sending me here there and everywhere for three "uncurable" conditions. I am not totally improved, I don't totally do the process. I don't commit as I might, however do I be moan that it didn't work and cost so much? When for ten years I have travelled all over and seen docs that are perplexed and just pass you to the next one. They say the tests show things are wrong but they don't know what to do. So If a process or neourological training can help lower that adrenalin, cortisol and help my immune system , then that isn't a waste of my time. Not cured nope but so far so much better and living a much fuller life and it was a fabulous experience. I fear coming in groups and saying anything much because it is an absloute insult to say I never had M.E if it helps. Who knows if any of us do, with no test but it is insulting to imply that. One day you might just wake up and it might just be gone, you might gradually recover over a few months , would it be fair to say that anyone who recovered from whatever means didn't have "real" M.E? No its not. There is much spite in saying that.

the NHS plough money into psychological theories, and CBT and pacing, where we learn to manage our illness, where we chart our days and learn to pace, 10 mins of this and that and it can be extremely stressful.... the constant "Ohh no I am going to relapse" I've done to much, i must rest, I must pace, thats is taught by the NHS, can get you in a loop. I found whether stopping one of this helpful and LP one of the most helpful things I have tried , and believe you me I've spent ten thousand pounds on treatments, specialists , non was as helpful. That much time with any therapsit / consultant etc would cost just as much, be it accupuncture or anything. Whilst the government plough money into M.E psychologically and not much else, why knock this programme so much............not cured but defo much happier!!


Gill 6 years ago

I am so glad that you have found something which you believe helps you.


Julie 6 years ago

Hi Gill

Yes it must be something about the combination of these therapies (that make up make up the structure of the LP) that appears to work so effectively. On the course they get you to identify your problems which I found hard, and then at the last stage you need to think of the opposite, the state you wish to be in. In my case this also seems to be crucial. When I have not fully identified my current feeling Or thought then I find I get no result from LP.


tanya 6 years ago

I am glad to have read all these comments. I, like, Sally have moderate symptoms, am able to work part time. I often feel week or in pain but still look after my family and animals and often go to work when i would benefit from resting-that is partly my personality -to not give in to it. I rest when i can, and i do benefit from regular rest. I rarely stay in bed because i have animals to care for- i need to work for financial reasons and am self employed so don't get paid if i don't work-that keeps me going, rightly or wrongly! C.F.S/M.E, in my experience, is sufferesd by people with similar personalities - often those who push themselves, who worry, have experienced trauma, emotional and or physical or suffer stress... Possitive thoughts are obviously helpful to everyone and those who get stuck into negative thought processes may benefit from this L.P, type of treatment. After reading the comments, both for and against L.P. I have decided it is not for me. I have been having the 'Perrin treatment' which is based on osteopathy, healthy life style, improving drainage of waste products and adapting your lifestyle to aid recovery. I have experienced improvements in many of my symptoms but i am not cured. I am continuing the treatment which was initially weekly, now monthly because i know it helps me. There are books-the one i read before starting the treatment was very informative and made sence to me which is why i tried it. L.P dosnt 'ring true' with me so i will avoid it. Perhaps sufferers symptoms can be caused by many different things and so that is why certain treatments work for some and not others.


Amber 6 years ago

Tayna- I am doing the Perrin technique as well, and it is helping with the physiological aspects. I learned a lot about LP from this post, and the comments, and have also decided it is not for me. But I now know I need something to deal with the psychological, the brain re-training. Has anyone had success with Gupta?


Mr.A 6 years ago

"The tutor said that if we tell people about the process if won’t work.", more like

"If you tell other people about the process, they'll tell you its a scam, ruining any placebo opportunity. They may even call Trading Standards or Watchdog".

Anyone who claims they were cured by these charlatans, did NOT have M.E/CFS in the first place and were misdiagnosed.


ThinkBeforeYouLeap 6 years ago

Before forking out so much cash, PLEASE take this into account:

http://www.skepdic.com/lightningprocess.html


ThinkBeforeYouLeap 6 years ago

Before forking out so much cash, PLEASE take this into account:

www.skepdic.com/lightningprocess.html


SJP119 6 years ago

I went for the Lightning Process Training a few weeks ago. I was frightened by some of your comments on here that I might be wasting my money but after trying everything else after 10 years of moderate ME I had to give it this last chance. I was starting to get depressed with my symptoms that were getting progressively worse over the years. Having given up my career as a nurse and my social life, not to mention my lack of energy for my family I had to go for it. I thought a lot of your comments just seemed to be from bitter people who have become consumed with their illness. One thing I did manage was to be positive about what I DID have, for the sake of my family. And time after time, I'd kick myself and search for something to make me better. 2 days after the Lightning Process finished I felt like a new woman, I even went for a run (something I used to love a long time ago). I feel great! There are so many things I can't wait to do. I have to keep applying the process for success and if some symptoms do try and rear their ugly head I do the lightning process, like how you're taught. If it doesn't work it's because the process isn't being applied properly or consistently. I know of 2 other people who had severe ME who recovered using the lightning process. The practitioner said if we are having any struggle we are welcome to ring or visit at any time at no extra cost. Sally should do this to gain recovery! If she's paid, there's nothing to loose.

Those of you who are slagging the lightning process off are the ones who have become their illness, their life is now their illness and they no of nothing else. You are scared to be well because you don't know how to be. AS for us not having ME in the first place that's a load of rubbish. You should have a good look at yourself and decide, do you want to be ill and bitter for the rest of your life or do you want to put yourself out and try something new and have some kind of life??!

Good luck those of you who are in search of that cure, I found it in the lightning process. It is however a training program, if you don't do it regulalry when you need to it doesn't work!


Mike Hicks 6 years ago

Those who say that anyone who LP worked for didn't have ME are shockingly narrow minded, spiteful, mean, ignorant, condascending, as bad as all those who say people with ME are not physically ill. Unfortunately there will always be people like this in the world. Beats me how people can be negative about something that has helped so many people.


idiot 6 years ago

Mr.A, and others with the same disgusting opinion that those who are helped by this "never had real M.E", you are an absolute disgrace. How dare you say something like that, perhaps if YOU had "real" m.e then you would realise that saying things like that just is not acceptable, and is very backward. We have spent YEARS trying to get people to recognise this as a genuine physical illness, and then to have other sufferers say that those who have been helped never really had m.e is quite frankly diabolical.


lemon 6 years ago

there are some people who believe you cannot just recover from M.E. If you woke up one day and was just well, would you say you never had M.E in the first place? It is possible for the bosy just to start fighting back and anything that helps that is good. To think you can never get well is defeatist . Some peeps seem to think if you have M.E you have M.E and nothing will work. If that's what you believe, so it will be.


Rickyx 6 years ago

There are no tests for M E it is only an opinion that some one has M E. Unfortunately, there are many illnesses physical and mental that have the same symptoms as M E, many of these also have no conclusive tests to identify them.

There is one big difference between people with physical illness and mental illness. Some people with mental illness can be on the road to recovery with out showing any signs and appear to be miraculously cured although the reality this process has taken considerable time.

People with physical illness like M E if cured instantly would take months or years depending on the severity of their M E to get into any reasonable physical condition not days as many Lightning Process supporters claim.

For instance, if athlete has a serious accident which makes him inactive for several years, once recovered he can not go back to training. It can, depending on his injury and state of inactive, take him, up to 18 months to get in a reasonable condition just to start light training. Therefore, anybody claiming to be cured of M E in days or weeks did not have M E, but some other illness.


6 years ago

One question that was asked earlier, was never adressed with a respone, that is how did those with with extremly severe M.E cope with the, 'training programme'? My M.E is not as bad as some, but i still wouldn't be able to get through 3 days without naps, and if takes 3 days to fully work, i don't understand how people after the first day and therefore have not been fully equipped with the course, can feel better and not feel the afteraffect of over doing it (having a much heavier day then usual)? It would be much apreciated if someone could assist my confusion.


Integrity 6 years ago

To Kirsty, Opinion B etc

It always disturbs me to read so many people on forums like this claiming LP is a cure. Because the bottom line is if you really were cured and "living the life you love" what the hell are you doing on forums like this.

I know if I was cured I would be rock climbing, dancing, snow boarding, travelling, loving, having a family.... I would certainly not have time to constantly peddle the LP as a cure! And the vehement way you are supporting it is really quite alarming. Anyone would think you are being personally attacked to say it is a scam. That in itself points to supporting the leader in some cultesque group, which I think is the truth of the matter with regard to Lightning Process, Amygdala retraiing etc.

And for the record I have done the LP, 2 of the people on my course obviously had bipolar and not ME, one girl who was completely exhausted claimed in the seminar she was well but since we were friends she told me afterwards she lied and she was actually totally exhausted but she felt she couldn't say that. And one girl who i didn't know was driving 6 hours a day to attend... anyone with ME that can drive 6 hours a day does not have ME!!!

For those that it has helped that I know, for the most part after the process they put every good thing down to the process and every bad thing down to not doing the process. In this way they claim it is helping but from my external observations neither of the two people I know are any different. They have merely convinced themselves that when they have a good day it is the LP that has done it.

To call these type of treatments evil is an understatement to say the least. Gupta of the Amydala retraining program has had a string of companies from dating agencies to property firms, all liquidated. These are get rich quick con men. Indeed Gupta claims to have had ME, but if you track back the time line there are only 8 months in which he could have been ill. And his only qualification is a 10 day hypnotherapy course.

One only has to look to the snake oil salesmen of the past to know if it looks dodgy IT IS!!!!!

The only question is why are these people allowed to advertise in such a way to vulnerable people. Such advertising is illegal in most other European countries and the USA.


6 years ago

Hi all,

Have read (at great length) the many postings... I'm still undecided about whether to try LP or not. One of my concerns is that most of the people who feel they've been cured have had much more drastic symptoms than I do. My symptoms are mild in comparison, I have been ill and off work for a year but can lead an otherwise normal life - I cook, shop, do bits of housework - but I can't stay on my feet or wander about for more than a couple of hours max, nor undertake any form of exercise (I retried a relatively gentle yoga class last week and spent the next 2 days in bed exhausted!). Is there anyone with similar level of CFS who has tried LP? Also I'm pretty positive, quite happy most of the time...can LP work on someone who's fairly positive, not all that ill and a real sceptic?


Bystander 6 years ago

Hi D,

I haven't had ME but a close friends has. She decided to do the LP course but was too afraid to go on her own. The LP classes welcome guests (at least this one did) so I was able to sit in on the whole three days and watch how the class progressed.

With regards to he physical side of things, two of the six class members lay down for the first day (they both walked with crutches). My friend crashed quite badly on the second day and had to lean against the wall (until doing the process again got her back upright). They all made it through the first day, and came in the 2nd and 3rd days having done their homework. By the third day one had no crutches with them and the other had one of her two crutches with her, but didn't use it during the day. So don't be too afraid of not being able to complete the course physically - though the course is a challenge for everyone who takes part.

I'm a sceptic by nature so am declining to post too much about the success/failure of the process for my friend and classmates (a few have stayed in contact and meet up regularly) until at least a year afterwards (6 months to go!). But I'm happy to answer any questions if anyone needs an aspect of the course clarified in some way - hopefully by being slightly on the outside I can answer without some of the zealousness that appears to crop up in both camps!

And Z, the ME/CFS patients on the course I attended had more severe symptoms than yours so I can't help you I'm afraid. I don't see why it shouldn't work but have no first-hand experience either way. Perhaps someone else has experience of this?

Much love to all of you suffering from this awful condition.


A true Bystander 6 years ago

Bystander why would you be trawling M.E websites if you don't have M.E? You are clearly a Lightning Process Practitioner hoping to make £550 for each gullable person.


Gena 6 years ago

Ouch! a true Bystander..I think not. You really have an axe to grind, unlike the objective and helpful observations of Bystander-who could have expressed an opinion but did not (read it again) Are you the negative person who keeps commenting on here about anything useful and positive that people have to say, some of us are trying to find information on a difficult subject. Come on reveal yourself! Not had a good experience? At least think these brave people have risked forking out a lot of money on something unknown, some of whom have recovered have saved the NHS a lot of money in the long run. At least congratulate them on that and keep taking your meds.


Integrity 6 years ago

I second a true bystander. Why on earth would someone be on ME message boards if they don't have ME. Just a kindly soul trying to help out everyone with ME!?

Gena, the crux of the issue is whether or not LP is a scam. Therefore people have a right to hear all opinions, especially negative one's, in order to make an informed choice.

Unless of course you think we should only be allowed to see the testimonials on Phil Parkers web site. Incidentally using testimonials as inducements are outlawed by every single official governing body be it the national hypnotherapy association or association of chiropractors.

Furthermore it is a criminal offence - "falsely claiming that a product is able to cure illnesses, dysfunction or malformations" without validated independent proof. As you acknowledge it is unknown and therefore even you must accept that Phil Parker is breaking the law.

Additionally it is an offence to aggressively market products to vulnerable groups in a way that prevents them from making an informed choice.

I have nothing against any therapy, but it must be sold according to our legal requirements. Or perhaps you think the law should not apply to Phil Parker?

And Gena it really is very low of you to personally attack a true bystander in such a way. Perhaps a true bystander has done the LP and been made worse by it!


Integrity 6 years ago

Z, it doesn't matter happy or sad. The Lightning process is nothing more than a simple stop technique that can be found in any NLP/Hynotherapy book for £5. It will help you relax, that is all.

Lightning process is however combined with a promise of a cure, and you are told to keep doing it and you will get better. This leads many people to push themselves way beyond their limits and all the people I have know that did it all crashed badly. Setting themselves back in some cases years.

Buy yourself a relaxation book + CD. It will help more in the long run. Stress is part of ME, just as it is any illness, but to get help only has to cost £5 not £500.


True Science 6 years ago

Nicotine has shown to dramatically reduce amygdala hypersensitivity, yet people who smoke still get ME. And furthermore taking up smoking or nicotine patches is not a cure for ME, quite the opposite it makes it worse.

Yet this kind of loose scientific association, between the amygdala and body processes, is being used to support unproven treatments such as the Lightning Process.

The very reason Phil Parker is using pseudoscientific jargon is as a trick, that much alone should scream scam to everyone.

Lastly it has been mentioned a number of times that Professor Findley is doing a study into the LP. That was 3 years ago, and one can only guess the results were so poor that the study will never be released, no doubt a condition Phil Parker made to prevent the truth about the LP coming to light.

I for one would welcome a double blind trial of the LP, verses sham LP which just involved relaxation techniques.


6 years ago

I am looking into LP on behalf of my sister who has been ill with ME for 16 years and is interested in LP (she has no computer) Why do you think some people have got better and others haven't? Many thanks J


uk 6 years ago

It worked for me. I worked hard at my recovery and had a very experienced and sympathetic teacher, not at all evangelical. The best money I ever spent!


6 years ago

Hi all,

Does anyone have any experience of the Optimum Health Clinic? Having seen it mentioned earlier in a post by Opinion B I checked it out and it looks pretty impressive - not as radical or "miracle promising" as the lightning process. However I can't find any debate about it on the internet - only the Optimum Health Clinic's website which is obviously all positive stories! An non-partisan experience out there?

thanks.


Full low down 6 years ago

The Optimum Health Clinic is Alex Howard's version of LP, Amygdala training etc. Alex is somewhat less commercial than the other two and if you read his book "Why ME?" it is reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt that he honestly believes he cured himself through "mind" techniques.

However if you really read his book you will notice that he was in a very unhappy family situation and he got better when he escaped that situation by moving away. In otherwords, did he really have ME? Byron Hyde a leading expert on ME estimates that perhaps 15% or more patients diagnosed with ME actually have anorexia.

Furthermore Alex bases some of his thinking on a book by Nina Markov Assistant "How I cure myself of AIDS" Again I read this book and it turns out she had a desperate infatuation for a man, joined a cult where they had to wear rubber gloves to touch each other and after having sex once she convinced herself she was infected. She didn't go to the doctor for confirmation but did an inaccurate home test that was equivocal. She then worried herself sick she had AIDS and stopped eating. She finally pulled herself together and started eating and hey presto she was cured! She then went to a doctor, was tested negative for HIV with a proper test and she convinced herself it was her mind that did it. The rational person would say she never had HIV in the first place.

So please to all, take all these stories with a pinch of salt. The Optimum Health Clinic can no more cure ME than it can AIDS! Alex Howard may honestly believe it is possible to do such a thing, but I promise you it is not.


Full low down 6 years ago

Correction, Niro Markoff Asistent "Why I survive AIDS". There is a world full of cranks out there.


6 years ago

Hi J, it's hard to tell why some people on here have not found the LP successful, I guess most people who have found it to be successful don't often visit such websites as they are too busy enjoying their life. I can personally vouch for the LP and 'Reverse Therapy'. I was an amateur athlete and became ill with ME. It was most definitely this and not some anxiety disorder etc. I was in bed for several months and although my mind could find no reason why I shouldn't be able to run up a mountain, my body had different ideas and I was going nowhere fast. I discovered ME and Lightning Process at the same time and did them both as I was desperate to get well. To my delight they worked (and I must admit that in the back of my mind I was sceptical because there was a part of me that couldn't believe that anything involving my brain / thoughts etc could cause such terrible physical symptoms). I am now fully active, hold down a demanding job, play sport etc. All I can say to your sister is go into it with an open and honest mind and be prepared to keep working on it, even when those doubts creep in. Like others have said, it is not a miracle cure but it most definitely works if you are prepared to accept it and work with it. Good luck to her!


Catherine 6 years ago

I am so sad to see so many negative things written about something that changed my childs life and allowed him to be normal again. You have got to want to get better, work hard at it and not to analyse it too much. I saw my 14 year old son changed in 3 days and was grateful that someone was positive with his recovery, unlike the medical profession who just tried to make us believe it was in his head.Sorry it didn't work for you but it certainly did for us.


Dishonest LP practitioner 6 years ago

You must be joking L, all the message boards are absolutely full of people claiming LP cured them, that is the whole point. Its so fake its unbelievable, if this really was an honest cure then the message boards would NOT be so full of this scam.

And if I had a penny for every time I have read something like this:

"It's so sad that some people are so negative over something that has changed my poor suffering child's life and made her/him well again. My 14 year old child got up and walked after only 3 days.... etc."

It really is despicable that these con men will stoop so low as to flood message boards with such emotional blackmail.

For the record double blind trials on CBT have shown it to have NO benefit whatsoever for ME. Yet Esther Rantzen's daughter said she was cured by CBT. Conclusion Emily Rantzen had depression for depression is the only illness magically cured by the placebo effect.

Depression is a real illness, but to diagnose people with depression as having ME is like diagnosing people that have a bit of cold as having AIDS. Unfortunately there is no test as yet but skill clinicians using the Canadian Guidelines can tell the difference.

So Catherine Im sorry to say that if your child was "magically cured" by a 3 day seminar where you step on some coloured carpet and tell yourself you are a "powerful genius", It certainly was all in his head. You cannot even get over a cold in 3 days!!!! I'll tell you what, you go and catch HIV or TB and try and cure it by telling yourself you are a "power genius" after all "if you can do that you can do anything"....

The bottom line is that unless there is an independent double blind trial confirming LP as a cure it is illegal to market it as such under the law. Unless you think Phil Parker is above the law?


Catherine the LP fraud 6 years ago

Well said to the above, why are you on ME message boards about LP Catherine? If your son was cured wouldn't you be enjoying that time with him? Unless you are only on here trying to sell LP to make yourself another £550.


John 6 years ago

80% of children will physically recover from ME. Many of those children continue to somate their illness due to fear well after the physical illness is gone. In this case, any mental therapy will cure them because they are not really ill anymore.

However the vast majority of adults never get over the physical illness. This is probably to do with the thymus gland as it deactivates in adulthood.

Therefore mind therapies have a place in the management of some children, but certainly not the Lightning Process, it is nothing more than an expensive fraud. Go to your GP.


6 years ago

To the people above: did you complain that the LP did not work for you? What happens when the 'miracle' does not happen? Is there any follow up by the practitioner? I gather you have to sign something about self responsibility..is this like a disclaimer? Any chance of money back?!! Just wondering how this side works. Thanks


6 years ago

Dishonest LP practitioner, I most certainly did not have depression (as I am sure most other people who got better with LP did not) and I'm not a marketing agent for the LP. I am certain that there are many honest and genuine people like myself that did get better from this treatment, did have ME and are simply trying to help other people to get over this debilitating illness by sharing their own experience. I personally believe that your body has a sort of 'emergency stop' mechanism which shuts your body down as a sort of self protection if you have been encountering a period of stress / illness etc and it is not until you understand these reasons and start to work with your body rather than against it that you can begin to function again.I personally did not have a miracle recovery over 3 days although my symptoms began to subside very rapidly. The bottom line is that no-one really understands what ME exactly is and therefore how to cure it and if LP works for people, no matter if it is a placebo, scientifically unproven etc then it is worth trying until something better and cheaper comes along. I don't think I entirely agree with the reasoning behind the theory but the thing is that the process worked for me and I went from being unable to get out of bed pretty much to working and living a normal life again. I must add that I did 'Reverse Therapy' at the same time so I cannot say which process was most helpful, and no, I'm not an agent for this either! J, just do what you think is best for you. Look into all the theories and help out there and think carefully before giving your hard earned cash to anyone. I can only tell you from personal experience that I did get better from these therapies and I am very grateful!(Reverse Therapy is done in separate sessions, mine cost about £60 each although this was a couple of years ago) - this may be an option because you can just decide not to go again if you don't think you will get any benefit after the first session. I had three sessions and that was all I needed although I did email the practitioner a couple of times over the months just to 'keep me on track' as it were. In my opinion, Reverse Therapy helps you to look at the reason / reasons you became ill in the first place and things that you are doing wrong that may perpetuate the illness. For me it was a long period of illness in hospital followed by working too hard, not looking after myself etc. The LP seems to deal with continual thoughts of 'I can't do this, I can't walk up that hill etc' and helps you to change those subconscious thought processes that possibly have a chemical / hormonal effect on your body. Again, this is only my opinion. I hope whatever you decide to do for your daughter works out.


6 years ago

Very interesting L. I will pass this onto my sister. I know this has nothing to do with ME, but I had a very strange back injury at work a few years ago (following a huge period of family stress including my sister's ongoing illness) I was off work for 9 months and it took me ages to get a diagnosis, even two chiropractors gave up on me! Somehow during this time I became aware of how anxious I was, I thought I was going to be disabled for the rest of my life as I was in so much pain, and developed all sorts of side effects as the result of treatment (mostly non NHS as noone seemed to be able to help) Eventually a locum GP came to my aid and gave me a standard leaflet on back pain and with a diet of diazepam I walked myself back to fitness and health. Then I read John Sarno 'Healing Back Pain' which similarly points out the mind/body connection, it made a lot of sense to me. I thought because I had been crying a lot over my families problems (deaths) I had dealt with the stress, perhaps I had never articulated how I felt (remains a mystery!) Anyway now If I wake up with a pain in my back I ask how I feel, not concentrate on any aches. Whoops better stop, not the right forum, might get told off! Thanks all of you


Lauren Alex 6 years ago

I think you're being a bit cynical. I did it a year ago and I've never been better. I'm swimming a kilometre everyday and walking everywhere. I can go into town and walk the dog and do everything I want to. It was fantastic. My Mum thinks it was the best money she every spent; I was ill for three years. Everyone is too cynical about it because it's not straightforward. You just have to go in with an open mind.


Beanie 6 years ago

Why are you ‘cured’ people still looking up M.E on the blog. Can’t SallyCats have one place where she writes that it didn’t work for her? There are loads of sites with people swearing LP worked for them and they don’t give the opportunity for anyone to say the opposite. Phil Parker has deliberately turned off his comments on You-tube so people can’t disagree with him. If LP is the cure for M.E why don’t they clinically trial it? Phil Parkers has literally made millions he could fund it himself and be assured that if he is right he will get every penny back if it was proven true. You might say it worked for you, we can't tell what kind of illness you had, whether you are back full time at work. You have just given a list of things you have done. On the LP course I went on we were told to say what we had 'achieved' and not mention if we were knackered afterwards! My trainer told me to tell everyone that everything was 'fabulous'. I would have been happy to do that had it truly been fabulous but the truth was it didn't work for me either despite doing everything they said. Please LP people, you've had your say. If you feel tempted to write on this blog. Shout 'Stop' and do a little process on yourself. We'll all feel much happier.


Bystander 6 years ago

I thought the idea of a forum like this is that it is a place for for people to discuss their experiences with the Lightning Process - whether positive or negative - to help ME sufferers decide whether to fork out for the course.

In answer to those who question why people who had done the course would want to still go on ME forums, I can only answer for myself.

When my friend was considering the Lightning Process, I was deeply suspicious of the whole thing and so turned to the internet to try and make sense of it and determine whether it was a scam or not (to no real answer - the debates are always so angry and clouded with what looks like exaggeration on both sides). Then when I saw how it worked for my friend (and the classmate they are still in contact with) I was left even more confused!

As I said before I won't be going into too much detail about their recovery until a suitable time to judge has passed (a year I'm thinking) but I feel so sorry for all those people who are still suffering from ME and would hope that by reading an honest appraisal of my experiences (slightly more objective hopefully than a former sufferer) that someone might be better able to decide for themselves whether or not to try the course. Of course, I would never push anyone to take it because it clearly doesn't work for everyone (as SallyCats sadly found out) and £560 is a helluva lot of money to shell out on a powerpoint presentation(!)

By the way, I second the call for a full clinical trial - it's the only way that we will know for sure what is happening. I was under the impression that the NHS were currently undertaking one - but I may be corrected on this.


Ts 6 years ago

Thanks for this. Any so called miracle cure that doesn't give you any indication of what's in it before you shovel over money but promises the world surely has to be questioned. Its a pity there are people who operate to exploit those who are ill and in difficult circumstances.


Lucy 6 years ago

Thank you Opinion B for your informed comments (although I haven't read them all). I have done LP, and it helped me alot. However it is not easy to maintain, or to have 'A Life I Love'. My energy has dipped somewhat since those heady few months after the course, but at least I know what Im aiming for now.

I agree that LP will work totally in some cases, partly in others, and not at all in probably quite alot of people. There are different types of CFS, and they are all equally 'real'.

I just wish they wouldn't charge so much for it - there really is no excuse, it's just greedy, and it makes the whole thing sound like a scam, when it's not.

I will check out the OHC definitely. Thanks.

Btw Kings College are currently doing a study on LP, and the results should be published soonish.


Lucy 6 years ago

Heya. Opinion B if you are still out there in the internets..I was wondering..

Why do you think people with CFS have a 'maladaptive stress response'? Is this something anyone can get if they are unfortunate enough to get in a 'stress-loop', or do you think perhaps people with this type of CFS have been born with particularly sensitive nervous systems, easily overloaded? Perhaps we are the 'Highly Sensitive Persons' that Elaine Aron has written about. I know I am anyway.


Lucy 6 years ago

OK, finally read all your comments! I am very pleased to find someone who thinks more or less as I do about CFS and LP. I even agree wholly with your opinion on Reverse Therapy, which I also tried. It did not help my symptoms, but it did teach me to get in touch with my emotions, which I believe I had been taught to suppress since childhood really. It probably contributed to my initial triggering of the stress-loop. I can also see how if someone's CFS is primarily caused by the stress of ignoring emotions, then RT would seem to 'cure' them. I just think in my case there were more causes - including trauma, as you say.

A psychologist I went to for a while said that every CFS patient she has seen has had some kind of trauma in their childhood or adolescence. (However since she is a psychologist dealing primarily with emotional problems she is obv more likely to be seeing distressed people anyway)

I think the answser may lie in the OHC, if it is as you describe. There are elements of truth in all these LP/RT-type treatements - but obv they will each claim that THEY have THE cure. Probably partly due to wanting a successful lucrative business, but also they have made these treatments their LIFE, so they really WANT to believe they have the cure. When RT didn't work for me, the practicioner Id seen became really annoyed with me, and quite rude - it was obviously personal for her in some way.

Do you have a blog or site Opinion B? - If you have any more thoughts on CFS and alternative health Id love to read them.

:)


Kim 6 years ago

By the tone of some of these posts, it would seem that some you LP-ers need to do a little more work on keeping your stress response in check.


Louise Reed 6 years ago

From the publication Private Eye, October 2009:

"ME sufferers were stunned recently to receive threatening letters when they posted their views on the "Lightening Process", a programme that allegedly produces "amazing results" for people not only with ME but "anxiety, panic attack, over-eating, low self-esteem and guilt" too. When sufferers started reporting they had paid £600 for a course that did not work for the, they received warning of defamation proceedings if they did not recant."

(October 2009, issue 1248, p10, about halfway down the "Legal News" section)


sallycats profile image

sallycats 6 years ago from East Sussex Author

Just to let people posting here that posts that give specific names of practitioners, phone numbers for people to call to 'talk about' the lightning process are always deleted.


katherine 6 years ago

hi. I am mostly bed bound and can only talk to people for about 5 mins following a severe crash 4 year ago. How could th lp be 'administered' to someone in my position? Also, any of th cured people-were you ever affected as badly as me? Thank you


Kelly Meisak 6 years ago

Hi, I'm quite surprised to hear what the lightning process is really about. I had ME and was bedbound for 3 years after a car crash too, and NOTHING i tried even made a dent in it.. I found a therapy called EFT (emotional freedom technique) which i bought a book on for a fiver and got myself completely cured within 4 months. i'm not trying to sell anything to anyone but im actually an eft therapist now specialising mostly in serious illness and disease, and i get a LOT of clients with ME. It's given me a chance to feel that i didn't suffer for nothing. ME sufferers need to stick together as it can be so unbelievably lonely.

If you're interested to learn more i've got lots of free video clips of eft on my website and you can download a free manual on how to do it too, that should get you started. It's really easy. You can also go to the main website which is emofree.c om im sure they give away free manuals there too. It can make an excellent impact on the physical symptoms.

The difficulty is, that if you have ME you are likely to be unable to walk so how do people expect you to afford something so expensive when you're living on benefits!? I managed to cure myself by working away on my own with a book that cost me probably around a fiver. Thats the reality. If i did it, you can do it too.

Feel free to contact me i love to hear from other sufferers, and i'm happy to give advice and help.

Kelly


Jonathan 6 years ago

I find it sad that so many people are sucked into this nonsence. I belive that these 'courses' prey on the weak minded, guilable and desperate people. A sick thing to do. It alright saying that some people were cured, but put it into context. The figures given of a success rate will obviously be published by this group in their favour. I'm also sure that if you took a million people and told them that drinking two pints of sea water every day would cure them of a gammy leg then someone would end up feeling better and testify that the 'treatment' worked even though it could well have been something else. This doesn't make it a 'successfull' course and the fact that you are rigourously put off from questioning the methods seems very odd and stinks of a 'don't ask cos' I don't have a logical answer' sort of approach. I have done cognative behavioural programs before and this is totally off! I would desperatly avoid parting with you money and laying your hopes at such a flimsy idea tha a bit of self talk can cure you. Don't be doupped no matter how desperat you are. This cannot make anything better when you've spend hundreds of pounds and still don't have an answer.


Graham 6 years ago

Thanks for posting your review of The Lightning Process, Sally. I'm currently doing the Gupta programme, and I was wondering how they compared. They sound extremely similar, except that Gupta's is less cultish, and doesn't attempt to create inflated expectations. I can see how setting you up to be overly optimistic could assist in breaking the stress cycle; but if it doesn't work, it's more likely to backfire than the Gupta's just-take-it-easy approach.


Rickyx 6 years ago

Word of Caution

LP followers make many claims to be supported my various credited doctors, hospitals , clinics and associations.

I am not saying these are people lying, but their claims are misleading . Many of these organisation only have vague records of any contact with LP practitioners and do not support LP. Other are of extremely dubious character especial some of the clinics mentioned.

There are still a few highly respected doctors following the theory of 1970s, which believes ME to be an illness of the mind. The patter has become highly sophisticated and always starts of with ME is a physical illness, but always ends with you are as nutty as a fruit cake. These doctors still support CBT and other treatments which are fast becoming discredited. Some doctors in particular have denounced recent research that has shown these treatments to be harmful to suffers of ME.

The proposed researches that are being put forward are a selected sample of suffers, as a posed to the normal random selected groups that take place in these types of studies. This already undermines the research before it has begun.

The majority of doctors including specialists in ME now believe the current research into ME to be physical damage to nerves. The prognosis for recover is not good. Which means if someone has recovered form ME, it is highly probable that they never had ME in the first place.

The diagnosis of ME is extremely difficult and in the majority o f cases is only a doctors opinion as a pose to a definite diagnoses. Some specialist have informed me it is becoming more complicated in recent years, as some doctors to their shame have confessed to using ME as an umbrella term for any hard to diagnosis fatigue illness. I have no reason to doubt the research that shows ME to be damage to the nerves. As there is no other Creditable research by genuine medical qualified researchers giving a substantiated alternative theory.

It is important that ME is classed as a separate defined illness and is not confused with mental illness, thyroid disease, lymes disease, general fatigue and many more illness that are commonly not being diagnosed properly, or as some doctors are now doing making a convenience out of ME. This growing trend damages the genuine research and the legitimacy of ME in its own right. Also people who have been misdiagnosed will be suffering unnecessarily

I do not wish to be disparaging of LP, but it is wrong to portray this as a cure for ME. If a person want to gain a more positive attitude that is their choice.


britpam55 6 years ago

I have done the LP twice, I did have sonme improvemtent the first time but then relapsed slightly. I did it again this time with EFT in it. I still feel consumed by guilt that I am 'doing' all this to myself. I feel awful enough as it is being ill like I am already. My practuioner said that if the 'coach' did not know what to say then as I am the coach I am getting in my own way. I feel suicidal.


6 years ago

Very interesting reading all these blogs. I am auto-immune (Lupus) rather than ME and am controlled partially by many drugs. The Lightening Process was introduced to me by an article by a well know event rider where LP worked for her daughter. I trust her so it aroused my interest. However, initially I couldn't see anything that spoke of auto-immune until today. I've just seen an advert that claims LP can cure Auto-immune amongst many other physical conditions. Does anyone know anything how it could work? Auto-immune differs from ME in many ways but from what I've read, I am diagnosed by very clear-cut blood tests so I'd be interested to hear if it's ever affected anyone's blood results? I am skeptical and think that it is ridiculous how much money it is for the course. I am thrilled for those of you that it's worked for, placebo or not, but could it possibly work for me and how???? I do believe in positive thinking and I was also told that your body regenerates entirely over years so why couldn't your body just kind of grow out of the illness?? Kids grow out of asthma/ezcema!

Britpam - stop blaming yourself, this is a huge problem I had with LP when reading the article about it - it's not my fault I got ill or am still ill, I also felt a bit like that having read "The Secret". It makes you feel that everything that has happened in your life (positive and negative) has been brought on by your own thoughts so think positive so only good things come to you! Great, all sorts of good and bad have happened in my life and some of it has been hard work, some of it has NOTHING to do with my actions and I WILL NOT take responsibility for those things. However, I do think positive and believe good stuff will keep coming into my life. I also push myself physically all the time and hate the fact I'm not the person I was 3yrs ago before a virus set off my auto-immune. Shit happens so I get on with it, sometimes get fed up but most of the time feel pretty lucky as it could be a whole lot worse.

LP/NLP/positive thinking whatever... just try and keep laughing. I was bed bound for 6months whilst they tried to figure out what was wrong with me - i used to tape and watch You've been framed!! Stupid I know but the endorphins I get from laughing just give me that little ounce to keep going when I can no longer move. I now work part time.

Good luck people x


nicky 6 years ago

I did the LP 4 months ago and really did struggle - mainly because I think I had pinned so much on it being a success. I had some terrific ups - absolutely brilliant - though followed every time by a massive low. The last month I have sunk into the most terrible sleepless depression - and this was after 3 weeks of feeling fantastic. So I know it works, but I don't quite know why I have crashed so badly. I know that it enabled me to do switching into a relaxed state and that this was what made all the difference, but then anxious thoughts would creep in & bang, down i'ld go and do struggle big time trying to get back on track. From reading this I wonder if I just need to keep on doing it and doing it. Or did I overdo it? Right now I'm doing exhausted & in a pretty bad way. Any ideas anyone? I didn't do it for ME by the way - I did it for insomnia/ distress caused by other physical conditions - another reason for not getting it right perhaps? I put too much on 'getting rid' of conditions - what you resist persists etc. Anyway - anybody out there with similar relapse story?


Mr.A 6 years ago

If you never had M.E. all along, that DOES NOT necessarily mean you were not suffering or were not in pain. It means... you never had M.E.

It's that simple.

These terms: CFS/ME/Fibromyalgia are often used as vague umbrella terms, by doctors who don't know what they are doing, or as a wastebasket diagnosis.

Saying the LP cures one person's fatigue therefore it will cure EVERYONE with CFS/ME/Fibromyalgia is utter propaganda, marketing, or at the very least: A giant dump in the face of the scientific method.


Jon 6 years ago

I'm always amazed at how delusional people can be...

As far as psychology goes this "positive thinking" may be beneficial, but positive thinking alone cannot alter states of being.

For a true M.E. sufferer such self-delusion can be extremely dangerous.

Pacing yourself in M.E. is incredibly important. If you aren't completely honest to how you feel then you are susceptible to self-delusion and, therefore, overexertion.

Telling yourself you feel one way when you don't does not result in healing, just self-delusion over your true state of being.

M.E. (real M.E. - not misdiagnosed psychological problems resulting in similar symptoms and cast under the umbrella of CFS/M.E. by "medical professionals") is a real medical condition, like having cancer, a flu bug or a broken leg.

Telling yourself you're fine doesn't result in these conditions being magically "healed". I can delude myself all I want by saying my leg isn't broken/I feel fantastic etc, but it doesn't mean my leg isn't still broken, just that I've convinced myself it's fine.

There's absolutely NO scientific evidence stating that positive thinking results in the miraculous healing of real physical conditions. Psychological ones, perhaps. Pain management, perhaps. But not physical illness.

Thinking yourself better doesn't make you better, it just deludes you to how you really feel and can even make things worse.

As someone with M.E. I'm acutely aware of what dangers self-delusion poses.

Last September I was doing quite well, or so I had convinced myself, so I tried going back to college. Needless to say I only made my condition much, much worse again by trying to push things before I was really ready for it.

Convincing yourself you're OK doesn't mean you actually are. Belief in something doesn't make it real.


Jon 6 years ago

I'm always amazed at how delusional people can be...

As far as psychology goes this "positive thinking" may be beneficial, but positive thinking alone cannot alter states of being.

For a true M.E. sufferer such self-delusion can be extremely dangerous.

Pacing yourself in M.E. is incredibly important. If you aren't completely honest to how you feel then you are susceptible to self-delusion and, therefore, overexertion.

Telling yourself you feel one way when you don't does not result in healing, just self-delusion over your true state of being.

M.E. (real M.E. - not misdiagnosed psychological problems resulting in similar symptoms and cast under the umbrella of CFS/M.E. by "medical professionals") is a real medical condition, like having cancer, a flu bug or a broken leg.

Telling yourself you're fine doesn't result in these conditions being magically "healed". I can delude myself all I want by saying my leg isn't broken/I feel fantastic etc, but it doesn't mean my leg isn't still broken, just that I've convinced myself it's fine.

There's absolutely NO scientific evidence stating that positive thinking results in the miraculous healing of real physical conditions. Psychological ones, perhaps. Pain management, perhaps. But not physical illness.

Thinking yourself better doesn't make you better, it just deludes you to how you really feel and can even make things worse.

As someone with M.E. I'm acutely aware of what dangers self-delusion poses.

Last September I was doing quite well, or so I had convinced myself, so I tried going back to college. Needless to say I only made my condition much, much worse again by trying to push things before I was really ready for it.

Convincing yourself you're OK doesn't mean you actually are. Belief in something doesn't make it real.


Jon 6 years ago

Writing all of this has resulted in some overexertion on my part, and as such my head is now spinning, I'm losing focus, getting dizzy etc.

I can tell myself I'm fine until the cows come home, but that won't make things any better. In fact, by telling myself I'm fine I'll try to push on through and just get on with it, which will only serve to make things much, much worse.

If I delude myself that everything is OK then I'm only going to push myself too hard and regress again.

Be warned.


Jon 6 years ago

Frankly, some of the other comments are extremely insulting. People telling me that I have "become my illness" or that I don't know how to be well or don't want to get better. Nothing could be further from the truth. I want to get better more than anything - I just won't get there by deluding myself or putting blind faith in unproven, and conveniently vague, "science".

Clearly the Lightning Process has brainwashed these people into believing in it so strongly that nothing else can penetrate it. It really IS very cultish...


Guido T 6 years ago

I haven't done the LP, have never suffered from CFS or ME and am quite happy that this is the case. The reason why I'm visiting this blog is what's happened to a friend of a friend. She took the LP, was 'cured' of a very vaguely diagnosed case of ME and seems happy with her situation.

But she sent an email to her friend


GT 6 years ago

continued - don't know what happened there....

She sent an email to her friend, one that had provided more supoort than many when she was ill, ending the friendship, saying that she was domineering and patronising and that they'd never really had a friendship at all. My friend was devastated, and I got somewhat confused. So I looked into the whole thing, and I'm only starting to be able to understand.

People in the discussion above refer to the 'cultish' nature of LP, and it would seem from where I'm standing that this is another factor in the cultishness of LP. Cut out the influences that might have a different take on things to your LP 'practitioner'and allow them to explain away the challenges to your new 'world view'.

Looks like a cult, smells like a cult, costs like a cult....

Could the LP supporteres please explain why a few days of life coaching should cost £550+ and why it refuses to be peer reviewed in a recognised medical journal?


SN 6 years ago

My daughter's consultant told me about an NHS funded study into the Lightning Process which looks interesting.

http://www.therightplace.net/getbetter/esther-craw...

My daughter has ME and is booked in for the Lightning Process in 3 weeks time. We are both going with an open mind. I don't care how it works as long as it gives her a chance of feeling better. In my view its worth a try anyway.


Jon 6 years ago

The lightning process seems to be based on the arrogant assumption that M.E. symptoms are caused by excessive amounts of adrenaline in the body, yet there is absolutely no research data to support this idea. The Lightning Process teams themselves haver even bothered to check their assumption by testing their hypothesis! There is absolutely no scientific research to support their theory, and yet they seem adamant they can treat people despite this...

If it were really as simple as having excess adrenaline then there would be medical treatment available. It's certainly not beyond modern medicine to reduce adrenaline output. If it were true then people like Phil Parker wouldn't have to prey on innocent victims or encourage emotional self-delusion, which can often do more harm than good. You can't just pretend everything is fine if it's not. Part of being human is experiencing stress and anger and worry, all of which release adrenaline into the body, as does exercise! Would Phil Parker really deny people their own feelings in order to push his arrogant claims about M.E, with absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever?!

I'd rather have medical trestment to reduce adrenaline thankyou very much, assuming his hubristic claims were true. I'd rather remain myself than lose myself to misguided, unproven self-delusion.


Jon 6 years ago

That should read "haven't even bothered to check their assumption by testing their hypothesis!"


David 6 years ago

I did LP in London 3.1/2 years ago. I've had M.E. for over 8 years. As someone who before this illness gave and attended many presentations I can honestly say that the presentation given over 3 days, you're actually only there for 8 or 10 hours, was the the most appalling I have ever experienced. Some of the examples given of negativity were just ridiculous. I will always remember being told that being a brain surgeon isn't difficult it's just the way you approach it. I thought it was insulting frankly! Having M.E. and being desperate to return to health I have also tried The Energy Excellence Course run by Amir Norris in Wales, he apparently developed LP with Phil Parker, and I have also tried the Gupta Programme. All 3 are a variations on a theme and unsurpisingly if LP doesn't work the others won't either. At least Gupta only takes £99.00 from you, a bargain compared to £550.00


Real Low Down 6 years ago

Gupta has had 5 businesses, from several dating agencies to get rich quick property firms. He is an absolute chancer and cad. If you check back the timeline, he only actually has 6 months in which he can have been ill, his claim of having ME is therefore as false as his therapy.

Regarding the LP study by Esther Crawley. It is regarded by many professionals as being completely unethical. Crawley is a child psychiatrist with strong links to Wessely and it is no wonder this disgraceful person is using children to experiment with an illegal and unproven therapy. Medical ethics are clear, studies are nly to be done on children if, and only if, they cannot be done on adults. Furthermore there will be no control group, there will be no strict case definitions. And as stated above, 80% of children recover from ME, so it's obvious why they have picked them - it guarantees success. It's evil.


Rickyx 6 years ago

Some supporters of the lightning process may wonder why we are so sceptical of this miracle cure. How can you blame us, when the accounts of recovery are ridiculous.

A recent article from a leading magazine, which is currently doing the rounds, states a person who was so ill with ME that they were bedridden ; after the first day of their LP session they went out jogging. This person is now completing task that even a health person would struggle with. This article comes with all the usual hype, and celebrity endorsed.

In fact this person’s recovery is so good, that they have had a change of career; and I am not giving any prices for guessing they have become LP practitioners.

From bedridden to jogging in one day. Unbelievable, but articles similar to this abound the internet and other media. We need scientific proof not pantomime.


Jon 6 years ago

I'd also pose this question to supporters of the lightning process, and I'm dreading the delusional replies:

If it's all about negativity then how come I get light-headed, dizzy and tired doing the things I enjoy, where there is absolutely no negativity to be found?

I get easily worn out and exhausted watching a film or playing a game - things I very much enjoy when I'm doing them. I'm living in the moment, not thinking about anything else nor worry about over-exertion and yet I still suffer for the exertion after the fact and lose focus and concentration during.

How, if it all comes down to adrenaline and negativity, is this possible? Hmmm? No sensible answer? Didn't think so.

Quite frankly, and this is coming from someone with bad M.E., I wouldn't attend the lighning process if you paid me to go! What a load of unjustified, unproven, cultish baloney! Next it'll be psychics that can "cure" M.E. by analysing your "wounded mind". Pffffft! I mean really, come on...


Jon 6 years ago

Sorry, "psychics" should've been in inverted commas as well. :P

I couldn't agree more with some of the more sceptical posts above, and Fran's excellent advice. I can only hope that my condition will improve with management, though even thinking about that is difficult in my current condition.

Lots of love to all those that suffer with this terrible illness, and shame on scams like the lightning process taking advantage of people.


Molly 6 years ago

Jon: As I understand it, it's not about negativity, it's about fear. If you're stuck in an 'adrenaline loop' you've subconsciouly become fearful about your condition, can't trust your body any more, as it keeps having horrible symptoms, fearful about the future as your health keeps spiralling downwards, etc. that fear produces adrenaline constantly, and that constant adrenaline weakens the organs of the body and causes the symptoms - so you're stuck in a vicious cycle - the fear of the condition produces adrenaline, the adrenaline produces symptoms, the symptoms cause further fear. So that even when you're doing something you really enjoy, you still have the symptoms caused by the fear hormones in your body. And the subconscious keeps you in a state of fear because it thinks there's something really dangerously wrong with you. But actually there isn't. If you could stop being afraid, you'd find you would become perfectly well again quite quickly. That's what the LP is supposed to teach you how to do. And it works. But for me it happened very much like Sally - my teacher failed to show me how to do it properly and built up high expectation of getting better immediately which didn't happen. In the end it took my four years from when I actually learnt the LP to be able to put it all together and figure out how it all worked and then I got better within a couple of months. So my view is that, yes, it does work, but that the LP teachers often don't show you how to make it work.


Molly 6 years ago

Jon: As I understand it, it's not about negativity, it's about fear. If you're stuck in an 'adrenaline loop' you've subconsciouly become fearful about your condition, can't trust your body any more, as it keeps having horrible symptoms, fearful about the future as your health keeps spiralling downwards, etc. that fear produces adrenaline constantly, and that constant adrenaline weakens the organs of the body and causes the symptoms - so you're stuck in a vicious cycle - the fear of the condition produces adrenaline, the adrenaline produces symptoms, the symptoms cause further fear. So that even when you're doing something you really enjoy, you still have the symptoms caused by the fear hormones in your body. And the subconscious keeps you in a state of fear because it thinks there's something really dangerously wrong with you. But actually there isn't. If you could stop being afraid, you'd find you would become perfectly well again quite quickly. That's what the LP is supposed to teach you how to do. And it works. But for me it happened very much like Sally - my teacher failed to show me how to do it properly and built up high expectation of getting better immediately which didn't happen. In the end it took my four years from when I actually learnt the LP to be able to put it all together and figure out how it all worked and then I got better within a couple of months. So my view is that, yes, it does work, but that the LP teachers often don't show you how to make it work.


Jon 6 years ago

Lol. Yeah, I was "afraid" it would be something like that. How convenient thar it's all "subconscious" and therefore doesn't require any verification whatsoever... Haha!

This still doesn't answer the question: If it's all down to adrenaline then why has this not been proven through medical science, and why is there no alternative medical treatment?

Something tells me it may have nothing to do with adrenaline whatsoever. I'm not going to risk worsening my condition by pushing myself, especially not based on something as sketchy as The Lightning Process.

I think that the comments above, about accepting obly those with a high likelihood of success, are accurate. Most people who attend seem more or less fanatical about it sooner or later, despite the fact that there is no medical evidence to support the claims of The Lightning Process, and that despite this evidence being fairly simple to obtain through basic medical screenings.


Jon 6 years ago

@Molly - That said I'm curious how you approached this "overcoming of subconscious fear" thing. Did you follow The Lightning Process steps above or did you find your own way? If so what was your way and how did it work for you?

Scepticism aside it's always useful to probe the situation. While I may not really believe in the viability of TLP I'm always open to hearing personal interpretations of these recovery processes.


Rich 6 years ago

Seems to me LP has agood deal in common with Reverse/Mickell, but LP locates the source of symptoms in ongoing alrm/fear of the illness and its possible consequences rather than in other psychological /lifestyle problems.

If your main problem is such stress, if you are particularly vulnerable to such stress and if your system has become entrained to respond with physical symptoms to this stress state, then Lp and other psychologically rooted therapies might help. If your illness is rooted in other problems they won't be so successful, if at all. Further we all have different learning styles and any trainer knows this. Thus even where LP is on the nub, if it is presented without sensitivity it may fail. The rate quoted by LP practitioners do not tie in with the MEA questionairre results, nor with Prof Finlay's findings.


Molly 6 years ago

Jon

The fact that the fear is subconscious just means that we are not very much aware of it, we've become habituated, just like when you've learnt to drive a car, you aren't even aware any more that your feet are using the clutch and brake pedals, you just do it automatically, or 'subconsciously'. That's all I mean by the word. If you can understand the theory behind it, then you can learn to notice when this subconscious fear reaction is going on and deal with it on the spot, each time, instead of letting it fester below the surface, gathering momentum, without us even realising it.

So, I used the LP stop technique to do this, but I think more important for me was the understanding what was going on and so not being afraid any more of my reactions because I knew that it was based on a false assessment of the facts. - The amygdala being in a state of high alert is interpreting things as dangerous which aren't in fact dangerous. It's a very hard thing to do this when you have ME, as the symptoms are so devastating and overwhelming, but if you really go for it and determinedly and patiently retrain the brain (which is completely possible due to neuroplasticity) then you can break through the syndrome which is producing all the symptoms.

Repetition is the key - just like it was with learning to drive that car and so creating new neural pathways in the brain.


Rich 6 years ago

Hello Molly

I am glad you were helped by LP.

The trouble is that many people with "ME" may not be suffering from the "misinterpretations of danger" that you describe. They may have infections which are a physiological danger AND which cause symptoms independent (at least to some degree and in some cases to a greater degree) from those caused by activated alarm pathways. LP does not in my experience engage with the mere possibility that such patients exist. This is avery strange and reductionist approach to illness.

Gupta has, I believe, theorised that stress/alarm may masquerade as physical illness in certain conditions. E.g. co-occurence of viral infection and resultant symptoms with stress can leave the body in a state where it perceives stress as a virus and responds accordingly. he virus can go but if the stress remains the body will continue to show signs of viral illness. This may explain why LP can work in post infective fatigue, if the ongoing stress is indeed to do with unconscious fears of illness. But we do not know whethyer this might cut the other way, i.e. can real physical problems become associated with the stress response and be intensified thereby, such that the best way to help the patient would be to address the physical side of the sickness state. LP does not engage wioth these issues imo. it appears to me to be effective for some but limited and narrow.


Jon 6 years ago

@Molly - I'm pretty much aware of how I feel at any given time. I'm honest with myself and the only fear I really feel is that of overexertion resulting in a worsened condition.

I don't feel this all the time, and more often than not I'll just enjoy myself in the moment without thinking about it, but these activities still drain me regardless. I fail to see how yelling stop at myself will help. It's a huge risk to take bases on absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever.

If, in fact, it doesn't work (for some people) then I'm risking making my health even worse by pushing myself to ignore the fear that stops me from overexerting myself.

If I did end up making things worse again this would make me believe it was my own fault or that I just didn't do it well enough, which in turn would make me feel even worse, even if it wasn't my fault at all!

I've been told by doctors and healthcare professionals not to overexert myself, yet TLP would have me ignore this and push forward regardless, all the while telling yourself to stop being afraid of overexertion an "just get on with it".

Who am I to believe? One will make me better, one will make me worse. Who is right, and should I risk it?


Molly 6 years ago

Hello Jon

There really isn't any element of forcing yourself to do anything with the LP, or of overexerting yourself. Also, it's not a matter of 'telling' yourself not to be afraid of anything - that doesn't work. It's a completely different method of training your brain to respond differently at the level that the subconscious mind understands - like with any training it depends a lot on repetition and proving to yourself that you can feel differently even if only for a few moments at first. So there is no question of damaging yourself by overexertion. The way it worked for me was that I just carried on as normal, but as I began to feel really better, it was just the most natural thing to do more, I didn't even notice it at first, but then realised I was doing much more than I had a week ago.

Those fears of overexertion, which we all have with ME, are precisely the kind of fears that are keeping us stuck. You're lucky if you can live completely in the moment and never feel any frustration at having ME, if you're happy like that then why bother trying to get better!


Molly 6 years ago

Hello Rich,

I don't really know the answer to your question. I think the thing with ME, as I understand it, is that there isn't anything physically wrong enough to cause that appalling tiredness and weakness and other symptoms. Usually blood tests come back showing nothing really to be wrong, unless much later down the line when the anxiety hormones have begun to cause real damage. Or with many people with ME they were run down or stressed out before they got a virus, so their immune systems weren't able to fight it off as well as normal. But from what I've seen of people who get better with LP is that their experiences with and symptoms of ME were just the same as anyone elses - some have been bed-ridden and fed through tubes and have still recovered.

I think that methods such as LP and Ashok Gupta's can only improve whatever the problem is, by at least making us feel much better and livelier in ourselves. Being ill is stressful in itself, and to alleviate that can only be a good thing.


Jon 6 years ago

Clearly M.E. affects some people very differently to others.

I'm able to live in the moment by focusing only on what I experience at the time. Dwelling on the things I've lost or the things I can't do doesn't help get them back be able to do them again, it just makes me depressed and upset that I'm so restricted, which in turn makes me feel even worse.

I try to stay positive by not thinking about it. By focusing on what I can do. Of course I'm not happy like this, but it's all I have for now so I may as well make the most of it. Of course I want to get better and do more but I'm just not up to it right now and forcing myself or deluding myself that I can do it is just going to make things worse.

I'm pleased that you were able to get better by altering your state I mind, but perhaps this was less a result of changing adrenaline production than it was breaking habit post-recovery. It's possible that the illness was gone but that the physical manifestations remained after being encouraged by habitual practices.

I find that I do, very slowly, improve if I rest, and if I'm realistic with what I feel up to. While I do sometimes fear overexertion I'm always realistic about my capabilities. I don't delude myself that I'm less or more capable than I am. It's not so much that I fear overexertion, come to think of it, but more an objective pause and assessment of whether I feel up to it or not. If I think I can manage then I try, if I think it's too much then I don't. Sometimes I do try to do more than I'm capable of, and I may even feel good on the day, even after doing it, but I usually always suffer for it after the fact.

Two days ago I had a shower for the first time in months. I felt quite good that day and even managed to do other things as well. But the day after, and today, I suffer for that exertion. That level of activity simply isn't sustainable for me at present, and thus I will avoid it and try again when I'm feeling up to it - not trying to do more than I realistically can simply because I really want to.

I'm pleased you were able to start doing things again by thinking differently about it, but changing your frame of mind simply doesn't seem to work for all of us. I think there's much more to it than that for some people.


Rich 6 years ago

Hi Molly,

ME is only a diagnosis. Parker's implicit claim is that it is a condition rather like the pain from an amputated limb, real but without a cause external to the patient's neurological system and to do with the programming rather than any damage to hardware. I think this is very one sided. How does he know that this is true of any individual with this diagnosis? How does he know that that person does not have a "real arm" i.e. a disease process such as infection, gross deficiency , heavy metal poisoning, sarcoidosis etc. running alongside any loop and perilous to ignore? He does not. He also does not as far as I know pay any ttention to physiological changes which may have occurred (even if he is right that they are due to the adrenal loop). If you have e.g. Mg deficiency and candida, surely it is better to treat them alongside LP? It seems Parker does not engage with the idea that there are pathological processes going on apart from the adrenal loop which might need adressing independent of LP. In this he reminds me of a proponent of reverse therapy who told MEers to "stop looking for a cure" and the NHS who won't do investigations incase they confirm patients' in their belief in underlying physiological pathologies. I personally have all the usual NHS "nothing found", yet priate tests have repeatedly shown a raging immune system. That might in principle be down to something LP can address, but not necessarily and no LP practitioner can tell me for certain that my problems are down to the adrenal loop. It's guesswork.

I think many would agree that there is not enough EVIDENTLY physically wrong to cause such symptoms, but that may be a result of current inadequacies in our understanding and failure to investigate properly, and it also begs the question as to whether PP's "negativity/adrenal loop/etc." is itself enough to cause the symptoms.

In fibromyalgia a lot of research has been done to elucidate scientifically the means of pain amplification, which is a real process and on the level of pain processing soem plausible explanations of excessive pain sensations have been found, but researchers cannot say for sure why these processes have kicked in in any one individual or that there is a single underlying cause. The cause might be one amenable to LP treatment, or it might not. Parker imo ignores such possible causes, seeing only patients who are either amenable or who do not want to get better.

LP accepts the reality of physical symptoms but has a one size fits all explanation.

All we know is that for some his approach works , for others not. For some anti candida works, for some Reverse or Mickell therapy, for some fibro sufferers guaifenesin, but noone can explain exactly why.

I think Parker, Gupta, and the like are really onto something in their concentration on the mental processes which cause the system to sensitise and amplify noxious input, but they are wrong to exclude the possibility that soem noxious input is just that - noxious. An individual body might respond to Lyme, Toxoplasmosis, an HHV, bacterial overgrowth in the gut, mercury toxicity in an ME type way for awhole host of reasons other than the adrenal loop and these gents do us adisservice when/if they dismiss these multiple facets.


Rich 6 years ago

Anyway, Molly

Thanks for your reply.

I'm glad LP has helped you. There's is no mileage imo in saying you did not have real ME, but you may not have had different key underlying processes from others and this can only be elucidated by proper research and open mindedness. I do not believe Parker encorages either, and I think this is dangerous for many of us sufferers.

Keep well.


Richard 6 years ago

There is so much written about the lightning process and I can see that it does sound very odd, and that there could be some sort of cover up or even scam.

However, as someone who had ME of 18 years (or did ME for 18 years) and is now fully recovered by using the lightning process I would say that the answer is strangely simple: as already stated it is a process that needs to be practice and involves reaching certain states of mind. If you do it, it works, if you don't manage it at this point in time, then it won't work. The article talks of control of what you say, and how you say it - it needs to for the technique to work. If you get it and things click it is so obvious, but until then it is just odd. When learning to drive the teacher will keep telling you to stamp on little peddles. How can that make you whiz along a road? It's just stupid, until it becomes something you can do and then it obvious. Most people can learn to drive. It comes easier to some, less so to others.

I think everyone is capable of doing the lightning process, but if you are not in the right frame of mind it won't work at that given moment in time.

Sorry, no mind control, just something that needs you to change the way you look at things, no fault or blame. No judgement or control just trying to get it to work and for most it really does.

Good luck everyone.


Rich 6 years ago

Richard

I am glad you are well.

The ME Assoc did a survey of effectiveness. of course the answers are dependent on who bothered to reply but "most" people did not benefit from LP. Many did but not most.

LP works for some, apparently for a good many more than several other approaches. Credit where it's due. But it does not seem to deal well with the question of why it does not work for many clients. Perhaps they do not have the condition PP describes, why should all "ME" sufferers be homogenous? Perhaps character type plays a role in receptivity in which case LP might need adaptation.

I have a fatigue state illness. Ray Perrin, anothe rosteopath, who has also helped many people and has an explanation for "ME" told me I do not have "ME", as I do not show the back deformmity he looks for as diagnostic. I do have many "ME" symptoms. But if I do not have the underlying pathology addressed by Perrin's technique, why should his approach work for me? Similarly, if you have the underlying pathology identified by PP, then his approach ought to help, but how on earth does he know that everyone with a diagnosis of "ME" has this pathology? He does not. He might have euthyroid hypothyroid patients, toxoplasmosis patients, people with small bowel intestinal overgrowth, Lyme disease patients in his cohorts. Maybe we can all do LP, but the outcome may depend on what the real pathology is. You won't get far putting your foot down if there's no carburettor or you have no fuel in the tank.


John 6 years ago

I also did the LP for cfs/m.e in December 2009 and it didn't work for me. It helped with physical anxiety symptoms, but hardly any differene on physical cfs/m.e symptoms. It made me veyr frustrated with myself because I honestly whole heartedly believed it would work for me and took it out on myself when I saw no difference from practising it for around three months.

From what I have read on M.E/cfs, it is not a diagnoses, you need to find the cause of your fatigue/flu like symptoms, it is an illness developed from multiple triggers. Including; viruses,vaccines, toxins, emotional stress/issues/being in high anxiety state for long periods. Literally anything that stresses the body. Therefore in order to get fully well people often need to address all of these triggers. The LP can get rid of the high anxiety state people with cfs/m.e are in and yeah sometimes even impact on physical symptoms of M.e/cfs for some. But not for everyone. I'm not saying that people that get well from m.e cfs using the lighting process are simply in a high anxiety/stressed state, but by getting rid of that the body can heal, for some.

For example, I have also tried Mickel therapy and this looks at key emotional issues you have and teaches that cfs/m.e are emotional signals from our body that seek action in order to get well. Again, this can often cure people if that is the main thing that is making them ill. It helped with understand emotional issues I had and thereofre took some more stress away, but didnt realy impact on the fatigue. As i was saying to get well for others it can be thyroid treatment, steriod hormones, getting rid of low grade viruses using other medicines/herbs etc.

I would only recommend using LP if you have lierally tried everything else, unlike me I went straight to it a month after I was diagnosed thinking it would definitely work.


Rich 6 years ago

John

That's the business and side of LP coming out. The therapy is regularly presented alongside the theory that an initial trigger followed by a LONG period of ilness associated stress, disillusion, rejection, etc. creates negative thought//emotional patterns which then perpetuate/cause the illness by perpetuating stress responses. Why then did a therapist take you on after one month? You do not fit their profile. This is the nub of the proble with LP. They make no effort to differentiate among the diagnosed.


SN 6 years ago

My daughter did the LP a few weeks back and is almost back to her old self already. Before we left the course she was running about and no longer has to take painkillers or sleeping tablets. It does work for some people and I'm pleased I didn't take any notice of the views of those who are negative. Many haven't even done the LP so how can they be in a position to comment at all?

Of course it won't work for everyone but it does work for many. You need to go along with an open mind and put in the work to learn the process. All 6 people who attended with my daughter have got some level of improvement so surely its worth a try.

Instead of spending the past few weeks in a wheelchair and bed my daughter has been out playing with her friends, riding her bike and enjoying life. I don't know how it works but it did and as far as I'm concerned it was money well spent.


Sn 6 years ago

I agree. You need to go along with an open mind and put in the work to learn the process. Of course it won't work for everyone. The statistics re. how many it helps and how many it fails are a matter of fair dispute.

You yourself haven't done the LP but you are commenting on the basis of your daughter's welcome improvement and that of 6 others. That is fine, but please allow the same priviledge to those of us who, like you, have not done the process, but comment on the bais of the numerous failuresd aswell as the many successes.

If we have no ability to comment, having not done the process, then nor do you. Why should we be silent and not you?

I am glad for your daughter and the 6 others and sad for the many it has failed.


SN 6 years ago

I did attend the LP with my daughter as she is a child so in theory I have also done it. I attended all sessions and saw what was done and the changes in all those attending over the 3 days was amazing. I think much depends on your state of mind when you attend and whether you do the process properly and regularly or give up too soon. Of course it won't work for everyone but it does work and my daughter is proof of that. She is now back to school full-time after 3 years of hardly going as she was too unwell.


sn 6 years ago

SN

What about your physical state? You may be right about states of mind, but even that can be a result of physical conditions e.g. infections can cause depression. What if you are grossly short of magnesium as is often the case in ME? Why doesn't Parker engaging with these issues? When people apply the process regularly and thoroughly, what according to LP are they doing improperly? I see little discussion of this type of question from LP advocates. IMO they help many but are too black and white.

I accept you have experienced the process via your daughter. I attended two LP promos. I asked questions, got pat answers and have read around a good deal. I think that gives me the right to raise questions and issues.

Good luck to your daughter.


Jayceez 6 years ago

Hello all, I have been following this thread and just wanted to have my say. Firstly, were any of you aware that the NHS are planning trials on LP? The reason being that they have found something worth checking out!

I did the LP about six months ago. I did Fibromyalgia and CFS for 5 years following the very difficult birth of my second child, however, with the benefit of hindsight I can see that many things led to that point. I was diagnosed by FOUR different doctors, specialists etc. For five years I lived on painkillers, antidepressants, and several other meds just to get me through the day. Walking up a flight of stairs would bring me out in a sweat! A friend of mine told me about LP and trust me, I was the most skeptical person EVER. However, after the first day of the seminar I woke up on the second morning and for the first time in years I got out of bed without pain and I haven't taken painkillers since and within weeks I had come off my antidepressants. The LP doesn't work for everyone and its not just about having negative or positive thoughts, there is SO much more to it. It is such a simple concept yet so totally complex that to explain it to someone is impossible without having done the seminar. I watched a young teenage girl in my group who had severe OCD transform before my eyes in just a few days! Is it a miracle? Who can say! If it doesn't work for certain people then perhaps there is subconscious resistance? Us humans love to hang on to our familiar 'stuff' even when its bad for us.

I have my life back and can actually enjoy my kids now, ride bikes, play games and yes, even do the housework. I also went back to fulltime work a month after doing the process. I know that in some subconscious way I liked having a nice little label for my condition so I could say 'I have FM/CFS so I can't do this or that etc'. I was very comfortable in my pain and fatigue and scared of trying something new. One thing that I learned on the seminar is that if we can create superhighways of negativity in our brain then why can't we create superhighways of positivity? Well, amazingly, we can and the LP gives you the tools in which to do this, but its not a cure, its a training programme. If you go to the gym to tone your muscles, it doesn't happen immediately, but your muscles get stronger the more you exercise them. LP is the same, you have to be prepared to put the effort in and be consistent with the process.

I wish the best of luck to anyone who is thinking of doing this. I would spend ten times the amount if I had to but then I have the benefit of hindsight as I have done the LP.


Oh Yeah? 6 years ago

Dear Jayzeez, so you are back at work full time, playing with your kids, doing your housework and completely well yet your still looking up M.E sites. Seems a bit odd to me. Pay ten times more for it? If it really worked they'd give it away free. Are you sure you're not a practitioner?


hugo bosch 6 years ago

From what ive heard, the lightning process seems to be fairly successful, im surprised by your negativity toward the process, especially since it focuces on the positive.


Rich 6 years ago

Hugo

I have read numerous success stories. That is fine. I don't doubt them. What irks is that LP advocates generally put down failure to issues such as subconscious resistance, rather than organic disease. They do this without evidence, and thereby leave "failures" with the impression that it is their fault. They ignore the vast array of other modalities which have some success and their success rates do not tie in with certain other reported figures. LP - fine, LP-ism, no thanks.


Rich 6 years ago

Basically LP advocates concede that peopel my not be psychologically prepared/willing to benefit but I have not seen a serious discussion of whether some people are psychologically less ABLE to benefit and most importantly whether some peopel are physiologicaally too compromised to benefit. These issues are more or less ignored.


jojo 6 years ago

LP a scam??? There is nothing wrong with learning that having negative thoughts seldom leads to positive actions. But the notion that you are going to cure yourself of cancer with positive thinking is a little far fetched. I know mind over matter. I have done the LP, my girlfriend is a practitioner and my experience says it's a get rich quick scheme that preys on slightly mental cases in overly wealthy countries. Notice that it's practiced in the UK, Germany, the Netherlands, the USA and Canada. Not in Bulgaria, Poland, Zambia or India.


lucky22 6 years ago

I did the Lightning Process, and it did not cure my M.E or anxiety. Rather than being an all out scam (not withstanding extortionate price!), rather it appears that there is 'something' to it, evidenced by many testimonials of this page and elsewhere of those who have seen signficant changes in symptoms. I can also testify from my personal experience of my body being flooded with adrenaline/ shaky, anxious energy whilst doing the process,that phsyiological changes were triggered. I have a theory as to what this 'something' might be, which I will come back to.

However the LP didn't work to reduce my M.E or anxiety symptoms, despite doing the process for up to 10/11 hours a day for several weeks. In fact I actually count the experience as among one of the worst of my life. What I remember from it mostly was the combination of exhaustion, (I was only sleeping a few hours per night due to mentioned hyper anxious state)and very low emotional and mental state from the desperate fear and need for it to work. When eventually I allowed myself to admit it wasn't, and emailed the practionner for help, his reply that, 'the hard work was up to me and it was time to pull my finger out,' sent me into a very dark depression with uncontrollable crying for several weeks. This is a big problem with the LP and similar therapies. If it doesn't work, the patient is blamed for 'not trying hard enough, incorrectly applying the process etc' because dogma doesn't allow the practionner to admit any limits/problems to the treatment itself. This is a 'diseased' dynamic, reflecting the practionners (false) ego desires/needs, (nice salary, belief of career excellence etc) which unfortunately take precedence over empathy towards the patient. When I asked my practionner about the 4 other patients on the course, during a consultation several weeks later, he reported one was making very good progress, another had seen some improvements and the other two were struggling (not his words.) The 85% success rate is clearly not accurate. I would guess at least 50% of patients must 'fail.' As for those who do experience improvements in their conditions, I believe that this is the result of the body being trained through negative reinforcement to essentially suppress symptoms. However, the root causes that produced the disease symptoms remain. The repression mechananism in the human psyche is highly complicated, hence the inconsistent results. In my case for example, whilst symptoms were sometimes temporarily diminished from doing the process, I developed a compensatory obssessive-complusive negative thinking 'tic' that forced me to repeat the LP continuously for hours on end to the point of exhaustion.

This is just a personal theory though, and I might well be wrong on that point. Furthermore I don't wish to diminish the good results some have had from LP, I am very pleased for any ME sufferer who is able to gain quality of life through any treatment whatsoever, because I understand what a debiliatating and miserable condition it is. On the other hand if you are someone like me who did the process and got nothing from it, I would like to say, 'it categorically WASNT your fault and you are not the only one!'

To finish this overlong post on a positive note. Since LP I have discovered a very effective treatment for M.E, anxiety and all other illnesses which is Heilkunst medicine. It is a truly holistic and highly effective system of medicine that treats the patient on the physical, emotional and spiritual levels. It does this by removing energy blockages and inherited disease predispoitons from the patients lifeforce using homeopathic remedies. It also encompsses nutrition, exercise and lifestyle factors. I hope other people can benefit from this as I have.


lucy 6 years ago

so happy to have read this as i was thinking about doing the course. no bloody way now.

there really does need to be something out there to help people like us.


Rich 6 years ago

Lucy

Lucy

Some peole ARE much better after LP, but they simplify the condition and exaggerate their success.

If you want something similar, cheaper, gentler and broader, try Gupta. He'll give you your money back too, within a limited period. I am not btw working for Gupta or anyone else.


Phil 5 years ago

Does this disclaimer from Mr Parker's LP website read like someone who has discovered something genuine, or like someone covering their back?

Conditions of Use

1. All material included in our website is intended for information purposes only and does not represent advice. Information is for guidance only and is not intended to form any part of a contract and can be subject to change without notice.

2. The Phil Parker Group Ltd. makes no representations or warranties whatsoever as to the accuracy of the information contained in this website and expressly disclaims all liability for any direct, indirect or consequential loss or damage occasioned from the use or inability to use this website whether directly or indirectly resulting from inaccuracies, defects, errors, whether typographical or otherwise, omissions, out of date information or otherwise, even if such loss was reasonably foreseeable and the Phil Parker Group Ltd. had been advised of the possibility of the same. Consequential and indirect loss and damage shall include but not be limited to loss of profits, loss of goodwill, and wasted expenditure.

4. Whilst the Phil Parker Group Ltd. uses its best endeavours to check all registered Lightening Process practitioner websites it cannot monitor any changes that may be made and accordingly does not accept any liability in connection with Lightning Process practitioner or any other third party websites that can be accessed through this website.


StuartA 5 years ago

I hesitated posting a comment on this page. However, I have decided simply to state the facts of my experience.

1) I attended a Lightning Process Training Seminar a year and a half ago for Post Viral CFS with one of Mr Phil Parker's practitioners.

2) During and after the 3 days I was motivated and eager for the LP to work for me. I applied the training meticulously.

3) While I gained some benefit for relaxation and control of emotion and creating the *right* state of mind, keeping a positive focus etc., the severity of CFS and the cycle of crashing still remained.

4) When I reported on the crashing and symptoms I was advised that it was due to my "thinking" and that I was not applying the LP correctly.

5) I have persisted to date with the LP but the CFS symptoms remain.

6) I have since discovered that I am not the only member of my group not to have been successful - indeed, only one other trainee was similar to me in post viral history and subsequent long term symptoms and they still have ("do") CFS. The other trainees would certainly have not been classified as CFS/M.E by WHO.

I am not saying that the LP does not work. Clearly for some people it has helped. However, in my many years of trying to recover from PVCFS, I have spent many, many, thousands of pounds on numerous doctors and treatments, some orthodox, some complimentary, all of which have had their successes with some patients, but by no means all.

The worst aspect of learning The Lighting Process is that when you fail to recover, the blame is placed on *you* - rather than on the competence of the Practitioner, cause of illness, or indeed on The Lightning Process itself. You end up with even less confidence in your health, (or "doing less confidence" as the LP would say) than before you paid out for the expensive three day course.

Surely, in the interests of science ( and before Taxpayers' money is used to finance this in the NHS), Mr Parker should be willing to publish the true numbers of trainees where the LP has not been a success and investigate why?


StuartA 5 years ago

I would like to add - when I said " The worst aspect of learning The Lighting Process is that when you fail to recover, the blame is placed on *you* ....", I am not saying that I am not prepared to take responsibility for my health or actions, of course I am. The problem I have is that placing the "blame" on the patient when they fail to recover from a "miracle" cure, is an old trick of "quack" doctors going back centuries. (Although, I do not regard Phil Parker as a "quack").


Almavati 5 years ago

Well, I'm grateful to Sally for starting this thread and de-mystifying LP. I read a glowing testimonial for LP in a FM magazine and became extremely curious as to what it was all about! (I'm "doing Fibromyalgia"!!!)

I've spent hours reading the whole blog and was reminded about the time I paid £1.300 yes! £1,300 for orthotics made in the U.S.A. which were going to solve my heel pain-they didn't and a short while later the company went into liquidation. The chap who owned it started off as an Osteopath who became an "expert" in podiatry...fortunately for me, I paid with a credit card and was able eventually, to obtain a full refund (but those who paid with cash weren't able to) because they were "not fit for purpose" and came with a 100% satisfaction or full refund guarentee.

Personally, I think Mr Parker should follow Mr Gupta's lead and refund some/all monies for those who participate in the LP workshops but who have no health improvements whatsoever as the purpose was not accomplished. I think that would attract more integrity to the LP movement as it appears to help some-but I imagine it would be a miracle if that happened!


Sam 5 years ago

I think at the bottom line we all need to find out the cause of this illness and it is definitely different in ev everyone. For example I have just recently recieved blood results showing I have poor mitochondrial function and heavy metal poisoning and anti-bacterial/detergent poisoning. And a possible yeast overgrowth which is yet to be confirmed. I did the LP and it didn't work for me- no wonder!


SallyCats 5 years ago

Hi Sam, that's very interesting about your test results. Were these private tests? And more importantly does the doctor who did them have any kind of treatment? I think I may have something similar, I do have strange antibodies etc but have never had proper tests. I would be very interested to know. Thanks, Sally


Judie 5 years ago

I have read through the original post and many of the accompanying comments for and against the lightning technique in a bid to decide whether or not this is the "right" thing for me and my, er ME lol!

I have been ill on and off (mostly on) for 16 years now, having my first bout when I was 13, and my second starting when I was 22. I'm now (almost, but don't tell anyone) 29 and very much still ill.

I don't claim to know any better about this illness than people who have only been afflicted more recently. BUT, as the UK Government has just banned ME sufferers from giving blood, which also means you cannot be an organ donor, THERE MUST be some sort of PHYSICAL and REAL cause and effect of ME and not just some sort of psychological disorder.

It is because of this that I find the lightning technique hard to believe. I dont doubt that it has "cured" many "followers", what I do doubt is the ability of positive thinking in overcoming a DISEASE. We dont tell people with AIDS that they just need the right outlook on life and all will be well do we? And yes I do know there are visualisation groups for people with certain types of cancer that report a reduction in size of the tumour, I have a friend who managed this for their brain tumour. But IT DOES NOT CURE.

There are a huge amount of "different" types of ME, with greatly varying effects and degrees of illness along with no real consistent way to tell how long an individuals ME will last, or if it will return. Or why it started in the first place. How many people who have had LP and recovered have NEVER had a relapse? How many would have got better if they had had the proper care in the first place? How many would have got better in time without the intervention of LP? And controversially, how many people that have had LP actually had ME in the first place?

I wonder as to the suitability assessment for LP, what makes an unsuitable candidate? What criteria is it they look for? Are they creaming off the people that could really benefit from a bit of CBT (free by the way), but as GPs are so incompetent (generally) with regards to ME, associated life, and possible treatments they are never sent somewhere appropriate for this? Why wont it work for some? What does my outlook on life have to do with my DISEASE?

I say learn to pace yourself, rather than berating yourself for not being well. Learn to find the positives in every situation, and coping mechanisms for everything else.


Sam 5 years ago

Hi Sally,

It's definitely worth it to do the tests so you know what's going on for yourself too :) The tests were indeed private as they're not available on the NHS yet. The name of the Doctor is Charles Forsyth who is based in London and Surrey.

Treatment is very specific depending on what is going on with you. For me the first phase is to sort out my diet and identify type two allergies, which is what I'm doing now, by following a stone age diet for a month and then I will reintroduce different groups of foods back in. The next phase will be to support myself with specific natural supplements my body is low in which it needs to help detox, the doctor will recommend these on my next appointment as well as other medicines I don't yet know about for the possible yeast/bacterial overgrowth. I also have to have my amalgam fillings removed at some point to stop further poisoning as it was this that party caused it, as well as HEP B vaccines which are often stored in mercury, as it was after a shot I got severly ill.

I am also thinking of having infra red sauna treatment as this is beneficial for heavy metal poisoning.

I hope this helps you.

Sam


Jo 5 years ago

Thank you Sally, for expressing your experiences so well and in a way that must surely help others - you succeed in 'demystifying' the process.

I had ME/CFS for 10 years (diagnosed according to the CDC's criteria). I did a nursing degree after school and have been a nurse for 18 years - mostly in the NHS. I have never looked to the NHS for treatment as, as we all know, it cannot offer a 'cure' at the present time and I did not want to sit around waiting until it did, as I know this is not realistic. I tried many alternative therapies and spent a lot of money - most helped a little. I followed Dr Jacob Teitelbaum's programme (on my own, using his book, with support from a sympathetic doctor who, while he had not read the book, was prepared to order the tests, prescritions etc). I did improve a fair amount (many sypmtoms went) but still slept every afternoon for 2-3 hours at best and felt I lived a 'parttime' and very restricted life. One particularly 'bad' morning I woke up with a urine infection, aware that a yet another 'whole day in bed' was emminent. I picked up Alexandra Barton's book - 50 CFS Recovery stories - and read Joanna's story - she recovered instantly by doing TLP. She mentioned the role adrenaline plays in the illness. I have an indepth knowledge of the workings of the sympathetic nervous system and it was like the 'penny dropped' for me about what was going on and I literally got up, was 'chilled', and had a great day! That was 3 months ago and I've led a reasnable 'normal' life since that day. I went on to do TLP and also read John Eaton's Reverse Therapy book and see a RT - the book was the most helpful - though full of grammatical errors it is very readable and unlike PP, John 'comes clean' about RT in his book and explains the role of the sympathetic nervous system fairly well.

I did tell the LP trainer before I booked the course what had happened and that I was well but wanted to do the course as an 'insurance' against getting sick again - she did not comment. I found her highly motivated but lacking in empathy (I think maybe it's all part of the 'process'). She was very defensive when I questioned the ethics of TLP - like why PP now charges 2K ("to encourage people to use other trainers" - judge that for yourself...). I felt a bit cheated when 'all was revealed' - it is much as Sally describes it. I can understand that for some people doing the course is necessary but for myself, TLP could have been learnt from a book.

Why have I read this thread if I am now well? Because I feel sceptical about LP and am interested in other's experiences. MUCH more importantly I want to share my 'recovery story' in the hope it might help someone else out there.

Some names form the postings stick with me - Molly - thank you for explaining things so well. Rich - yes, of course the pathophysiology is 'relevant'. I use inverted commas because I know that neurotransmitters, like adrenaline, ARE physiological and impact greatly on the health of the body. As a nurse, I am aware, for example, in the fact that steroids surpress peoples' immune systems - it is an established side effect. I imagine adrenaline works in a similar way - hence the problems with virus' and/or candida, that are so common in CFS/ME. Jon - I have been struck by your intelligence and sincerity. Perhaps if you direct less energy into slamming LP and more into how this process and RT work (dampening down of the sympthetic nervous system), someone as bright as you could probaly 'cure' themselves simply through the 'understanding' much as I did.

I don't pretend for one moment to understand all these processes at a microlevel - I can only offer you my empirical, personal, evidence. Don't put your faith in medical science finding the answers - it will - but too late for most of us. Use what's already out there and working.


Jo 5 years ago

PS Apologises for all MY grammatical errors!


Debric75 5 years ago

I had a really hideous time doing the lightening process. I had built myself up to such a high point believing that I could come out of my black depression. I explained to the lightening therapy lady that i would be going for depression, and was met by now all too familiar 'great'

Of course, I couldn't tell my mind to leave 25 years of depression behind me after 3 days of codswollop. I hit such a low point after I had finished the process, that I became suicidal.

£550 to trigger suicidal tendancies, not great. And that's not all!!! In the sessions you are told to let go of your deepest problems and secrets, to the other people in the room doing the process. Not so luckily for me, the lady that was also doing the process in my sessions, moved into my area a few weeks after we completed the process. She started to send her child to the same school as mine went to, refused to talk to me anymore, and proceeded to spread my innermost feelings and fears around the gossipy mothers. This process should be stopped, it is dangerous and has caused me great distress, all for the bargain price of £550.00.


jackieJJ 5 years ago

WOW. From a skim of this post I am amazed at some people's intense emotions around the Lightning Process. There is probably not a lot to add but I wanted to give my view as someone who did the Lighting Process 6 months ago for ME.

When I read some people's experience of doing the Lightning Process it seems that there may be some variability around HOW the LP is taught. Some postings do not match my experience at all. My experience was very positive even though I didn't get my miracle cure.

My practitioner spent a lot of time with me talking about what to expect with the Lightning Process and what would be expected of me.

He was not pushy at all and at no stage did I feel pressured. He never guaranteed it would work, he just answered my questions and left it up to me to see if it made sense. Of course I had some doubts as I had tried so many things, but I went in with my eyes open.

Going into the training I was prepared to do anything and everything to get my health back and part of that was to acknowledge the role I was playing and take full responsibility for that. If I am stressed or frustrated or being a perfectionist or anxious - that's me. There's no one to blame but myself and I don't even blame myself. I do those things automatically and effortlessly because I have done it in the past, BUT it is still up to me to do something about. That was one of the great learnings of the training. To know what I am doing and a tool to do something about it. I have got control over my body and my mind.

The Lightning Process gave me the tools to address the physical aspect of M.E. AND the skills to make some changes in my life that I suspect played a role in me getting sick in the first place. (overly driven, a perfectionist and a lifetime of anxiety). I am a different person than the one that took the training.

It was not just my physical health that I got back. I feel in control of things for probably the first time in my life. BUT it wasn't easy for me. It wasn't a 3 day miracle cure. I had to really work on it - and somehow that makes it feel even more solid success. I don't fear relapse because I know the steps to get out again. (The old me would have been anxious that it wouldn't last and I see how counter productive that is on the adrenals) I suspect that relapse won't happen as I have changed so much anyway. What made my journey harder was that I am in contact with another lady in the training who got well very quickly. So I was a little disappointed at how that didn't seem 'fair'.

But I am where I am know because of hard work. There were times when it would have been easy to give up and fall into the old traps. And in hindsight now I see that there were times when I wasn't doing the LP properly. Not because I was lazy, but because the unconscious patterns are just that - unconscious. So my trainer at times over the last few months has been very good and being very frank with me. Not rude just honest. I was very good at blaming everything and everyone (virus, parents, length of illness and yes even the trainer). But I liked his frankness and I can see that for some this would be confronting. He didn't say "you just need to do the work" like some people have posted. He talked me through it and I recognised my blindspots and that I had choices.

At times over the last few months I know I have chosen poorly to the detriment of my health and success - like initially not wanting to do the LP in public because what others might think. So after a few follow-up calls I realised how crazy that was and I can see how this is just one of the many old traps that could have got in my way - and turned this into a negative post ;-)

So I stuck with it. The training was expensive but it comes with as much free follow up as I needed. I have definitely got my moneys worth. It took time but nothing compared with the 14 years of hell I had lived with. I now actually feel really well and have just had the most amazing christmas EVER. I can even keep up with the grandkids.

So my advice is to firstly challenge the old ideas that things have to be either physical or psychological, and be prepared to accept full responsibility for your health. Then shop around for a practitioner you feel comfortable with and then be prepared to do the work of changing all aspect of your life. Be honest about if you are really doing everything the training asks of you and be comfortable in getting help from your trainer.

Just my two cents worth. I've since had 2 friends do the LP. One got very fast success (aarrghhhh!) and the other is struggling. I hope she sticks with it like I did but I'm not going to 'rescue her'. That's the old me ;-)


Rich 5 years ago

Jackie

I am glad you are doing well from the LP.

I agree with you that things i.e a given illness does not have to be purely physical or purely psychological. Critics of LP do not necessarily think in these simple categories. But it remains true that some illness states respond better to physical intervention and some to psychological, and that different people with the same condition may respond differently to any intervention for reasons which are often hard to discern. LP as far as I know accepts ME as physical in terms of there being physical dysfunction but lays all the emphasis on the psycho-behavioural means of recovery and accompanies this with an "explanation" of the illness which disregards physical causes such as ongoing infection, toxicities and more complex psychological issues etc. The LP view is, therefore, open to the criticism that it also oversimplifies the physical/psychological interplay.

In the framework of LP for ME "taking full responsibilty for one's health" can come to mean "accepting our explanation of your illness and practicing LP as the remedy" without regard to the possibilities of other causes or complicating factors. If as a component of the illness someone has muscle pain and is deficient in magnesium, it is responsible to take it, taking it is an act of responsibility, but LP with its overarching "explanation" of the symptoms of ME has no paradigm for such physical treatment. If you have ME and muscle pain "do the process" is the advice and given their simplistic "explanation" "all yo0u need is to do the process" is the underlying message. Thus far many of us fell that LP professionals have a very simplified and for some dangerous approach, which does , however, show good results for some.


Alex 5 years ago

I have read this blog and all the responses, whilst doctors cannot agree on if someone has CFS/ME and there is no test other than the questionnaire, what chances have we (the people that are ill) got of agreeing on possible solutions. There is very interesting research at Glasgow Uni on Biomarkers to find out if someone has CFS/ME. I have been ill for 4-5 years, I did not come at this via the standard route as my confidence that the NHS would deliver was very low. I went down the DNA hair testing route first (I would highly recommend Integral Health who did the tests). My first hair test said that I had heavy metal poisoning and that I should see a dentist to have my filling x-rayed to see if they were the problem, (Integral Health have never met me and did not know if I had fillings at all). I went to the dentist and yes one of my fillings was leaking so I instructed the dentist to replace all my amalgam fillings, my health improved for a while, then I fell ill again, so next hair test came back with Methylation issues I then did a 3 month course of B6. After feeling well for a couple of months I fell ill again, this time I was diagnosed with radiation issues mainly due to mobile phones and wireless networks, I have been left with a permanent issue with this, I cannot use mobiles at all and I feel sick within 10-15 minutes of being in a room with a wireless network. Given that all these diagnosis’s were done outside of NHS, everyone around me including my co-directors at the company I part owned were very dubious of these results, so to appease everyone I said I will go down the NHS route, well when page one of the 6 page questionnaire was read by the nurse she immediately started talking about treatment for CFS/ME(B12). My point is this CFS/ME or whatever you want to call it is a dumping ground for unknown illnesses that all look the same, my guess is in 20 years time CFS/ME will have gone as it will be so well understood that it is 3-4 different illnesses all with similar characteristics and they will all be named appropriately. My feeling is there is a viral version, a stress version, a poisoning/toxic version, so don't expect a single cure (cure is a funny word as I don't believe that there is one, I think management is a better word). I have just purchased the Gupta Program with the view that if it can get me 90% of the way there then that is better than where I am right now, and I think that the LP/Gupta process could work 100% for the stress version of CFS/ME. Until the day when a proper clinical diagnosis can be done that is reliable, we will always debate possible solutions to this evil illness that has stolen 4-5 years of my life, lost me my job and business, and deprived my family of a normal existence.

For me all my crashes have been linked to viral infections that can take 2 months to clear, the brain fog is unbelievable during the crashes.

In 6 months time if things have not improved I will be going back to Integral Health for another hair test.

Good luck with whatever treatments you try, throw enough mud against the wall and you may get luckly.


Sam 5 years ago

I came across this and out of everything I have read surrounding ME/CFS, it is the treatment that fully makes sense of what could be going on with people that have these group of illnesses. Basically, they believe ...

"The Perrin Technique™ is based on Dr Perrin's theory that different stress factors whether physical, allergies, emotional or infections lead to an overstrain of the sympathetic nervous system.

Further investigation has led to a probable cause of this nervous system overload being a build up of toxins in the fluid around the brain and the spinal cord.

Some of the poisons caused by infection or inflammation in the head or spine flow through perforations in a bony plate (the cribriform plate) just above the nasal sinuses into the lymph ducts of the face and neck.

The toxins are also meant to drain down the spinal cord and out into the lymph ducts lying along the spine. In a CFS/ME sufferer these normal drainage points are congested."

I am thinking of having this done as I have multiple toxins in my body from having various private blood tests, including a bacteria overgrowth (D-lactate), heavy metal toxicity, (mostly mercury) and anticeptic poisoning. Was wondering if anyone else has tried this treatment?

The theory behind the gupta programme and Perrin technique are fairly similar witht the agreement on the sympathetic nervous system arousel, but the Perrin technique explains more why we get ill with a history of this sympathetic arousel leading up to getting ill, which explains the arousel causes the lymphatic system to not work correctly and therefore the body is unable to drain itself of harmful toxins, whether they be tonxins from our own body including emotional, bacerial, viral and envirnmental allergens. I have also tried the gupta programme with no success

Thanks,

Sam


Sam 5 years ago

P.S I should mention the treatment of the Perrin technique is a massage technique which helps aids drainage of toxins in the lymphatic system so they are able to work correctly. Further manipulation of the structure of the head and spine is also included to help aid drainage.


Alex 5 years ago

Sam, my wife is a reflexologist and does my feet every couple of days, my lymphatic system has always showed problems, so you could be right. Having had (may still have) mercury issues I have to be very carefull of what fish I eat as tuna and salmon can have high levels.

I have had a look Perrin technique it looks like a good theory, I am going to consider it myself as it is compatible with all the other things I am trying at the moment. Best of luck with it.


Sam 5 years ago

Thankyou Alex! I think I'm going to start it next week. I have also changed my diet and supplementing for my poor mitochondria/nutritional deficiences, (recommended by a nutritionalist I'm seeing,) but not really seeing any relief yet, but it's only been a month! Hopefully the Perrin technique will help a lot too.

Best of luck with it too if you decide to do it.


peren 5 years ago

"Yes by that evening I was doing the Lightning Process to counteract my thoughts about the Lightning Process itself."

LP is the unbreakable circle. you make believe you are in shape there for you are in shape.

get it? I don´t get it. but im sure paying for a course would help me. (but only if im ready to do good health).

im sure if it was allowed they would say that people do cancer and aids , too. you can controll it by self talk. yeah,

to stop doing a disease is gonna take a lightning process. there will be doctors out of jobs soon. : )

love from norway


Karen Hall 5 years ago

It sounds like you had a very fustrating and disappointing experience. The tutor on your particular course sounded like a poor teacher/trainer who failed to deal with you in an appropriate way. I'm sorry that it didn't work for you. To give a little balance, I personally know 2 people who have had complete success with it and can only believe the evidence of my own eyes which has shown me that before the course they were affected in all sorts of ways by their conditions but after it, those symptoms were gone.


Rich 5 years ago

Works for some , not for others. Is it no the case that if you ask certain (many?) LP practitioners why, they will come up with superficialities such as "we're all different" but will not engage in discussion of what these differences are, apart form some having the "right" mindset as opposed to the "wrong" mindset for LP, i.e. the sufferers mindset is at fault in those who do not improve. Is discussion of differeing pathologies ever undertaken? Is the possibility envisaged that LP's account of how ME symptoms arise may be partial and inadequate and the therapy inappropriate for many because they have different factors involved in their illness. I think not though maybe things are changing.


Pip 5 years ago

This is an update. I posted 17 months ago, a month after learning the Lightning Process in Australia with Ian Cleary. Before that I had CFS for 14 years.

I continued to improve steadily after my post and am doing amazingly well now. I went on a trip to New Zealand last year, something I would never have dared to plan before the LP. I am currently studying 3 days a week, so that I can get more work, as well as riding my bike around, and keeping up with my son and my boyfriend. I am not just tolerating exercise, I am loving it. Life is great!!!! :-D

The LP hasn't been the only thing I've ever done to improve my health, but it was one of the most powerful things, and it broke me out of the CFS cycle for good.

To those who claim that people who recover using the lightning process never "really" had CFS - the criterion for CFS is 6 MONTHS of illness, not a lifetime! The medical problems causing CFS CAN be resolved. Some people use the LP, others recover by other means, but don't give yourself a life sentence just to prove how serious your condition is. There are PLENTY of people who've made a FULL recovery after CFS lasting more than a decade, it IS possible! Keep on hoping and learning and looking for the answers that will work for you. And don't knock down others who have recovered! Wouldn't it be healthier to be thrilled that recovery is possible?


bellis 5 years ago

hi all

I am currently undergoing LP in norway for muscle pain. although i can feel the process helping my symptoms i get so stressed when i use the process that i do not think it is worth it. I have muscle pain du to stress, and was told that LP would cure my stress... no.. it didn´t. I feel weird doing it. my brain kind of floats, i feel "outside" of my body, i get stressed, exhausted and have panic attacs.

My theory is that my underlying issues of the stress and pain are far, far too heavy to just "block" out with a mental "stop" learned over three days. I do think that it is effective for those people who are dealing with lighter issues, and that it can cure som me-patients. However, I have seldom felt worse than i do these days, and thank god i have friends and family to help me sort these feelings out. I am not going to apply this technique to my life, it is far to "simple" to deal with my problems.

I have asked my trainer and she says i should just continue doing the process.. meaning that when i get stressed and have panic attacs from doing the process I should apply the process again! well, all i can see here is an evil circle of saying stop and getting more stressed.

I am saying STOP to all this and finding an alternative route to calm my stress - cognitive behaviour therapy!


bellis 5 years ago

i wrote yesterday about my negative experience with lp. I think i have to modify it a little.. although i do not do the entire process, because it gets me stressed, i have managed to do my own version that kind of helps! instead of doing a physical movement and saying stop, i just say calmly stop, or calm down to my self and then go directly to a good place in my mind, e.g. a moment i felt very happy or relaxed in the past. The whole "you are amazing, you can do this, you´re a genius" thing i do not do, because i felt this made me more stressed. Also i do not focus on the "choice" that they preach on the course. I feel much more relaxed, and i have much less pain, and no panic attacks which i got from doing the entire process. I feel relaxed at another level, and that is awesome! so, even though i have negative experiences with the actual process, i feel that i have taken some things from it, and now can move on. I would consider doing it again, but i am not convinced yet. It seems a lot of money just for an excercise someone can easily teach you over a couple of hours.

But, in all fairness, i am happy and relaxed now, and i think that is due to LP. So ... if you have the money - try! :-)


SP 5 years ago

Seems like 3 themes are repeating themselves throughout these comments:

1) LP may work for some but is massively overpriced considering how long it takes to teach what is effectively quite a simple technique

2) LP appears to be taught in markedly varied ways, and some practitioners appear to be doing more damage than good. All blame is for failure is sqaurely placed on the client, so there appears to be little chance that poor practitioners will be weeded out. I hope they do not take over LP altogether.

3) There are similar training courses e.g Gupta for much cheaper prices and with money back guarantee. Tho' one person says Gupta himself is of dubious character.

4) Some people say you can teach yourself all you need to know from a £5 NLP book. One person mentioned Sarno's mind-body connection book.


benesse 5 years ago

hello there, this is my first comment here. my own situation is this. i am a male in my fifties and have had me/cfs all my adult life. i have been to learn the lightning process and although i am still not right, because of all the accounts on the internet and in the papers etc i am truly convinced that it is working for many people. i have various opinions on different aspects of LP, but i will focus on this point in this post. now,some of us with me/cfs have managed somehow to carry on and work full-time, however is it really possible to learn LP say on a monday, tuesday and a wednesday and then the next day find yourself back at work and still have the time to actually do the process. do you ideally need a few weeks to have more time to yourself in order to get to grips with it. and surely if this is a good point, should this not be said to you before you hand over your £600. i am also going to post this question to the lP website. well i look forward to plenty of opinions, thanks


Sam 5 years ago

I have not tried the LP. I have however tried Gupta Amygdala Retraining. As previously noted this costs £100 and you can get your money back after 6 months if it hasn't work for you. It is based on exactly the same principles as LP, albeit through the numerous DVDs included in the programme it at least appears thoroughly researched and not beyond the realms of rationality. You have no one to plague your mind, you either accept what the DVDs say or you don't. As I say I haven't tried LP but I'm going on the evidence of the main article above.

I understand the helplessness of the condition, I still live with it, but £600, non refundable??? Really????

Whether it works or not, this is essentially irrelevant - the hypotheses are almost identical, different gland, same treatment protocol -> break/stop the negative thoughts.

As I say I haven't tried it but unless you have money to burn surely Gupta makes more sense, and if you receive 0 benefit on that programme how likely is it you will on LP? At least then you've only lost 6 months of interest on £100, which lets face it is not a helluva lot at the mo.

For the people who have got better with LP, superb, I congratulate you wholeheartedly. But, worst case and this doesn't work, could you have afforded to lose £600? Even if it's a 99% success rate, it won't matter one iota if you're in the 1% bracket.


Rich 5 years ago

Emily Wilcox, daughter of Esther Rantzen, became a bit of a pin up for LP. it transpires that, though LP really helped her, she has got even better on a no carb diet, possibly as this has excluded gluten. Reducing candida might also have played a role. So LP helped but was not the whole story. I hope her FULL story will be included in LP publicity from now on.


EcoloCat profile image

EcoloCat 5 years ago from Near the Arctic, N.America.

I'd like to think there's humour in everything; but, it's a kick in the pants, when you're the butt of the joke.

Recently, I've come across Hypnotherapy, Harmonic Resonance, Emotional Freedom Technique, Body Talk, Intuitive Body Work


Question 5 years ago

Ok, you are very very ill and you have no choice but to wait for a cure or someone to help you. The Lightning Process is utter junk as are all these claptrap rip-off ideas. You're stuck in this awful place.

Just fantasise for one moment and ask yourself this question: "Wouldn't it be wonderful if instead I really could take responsibility and cure myself, with a little understanding and some hard work?". ...... What was your answer? What was your gut reaction?


Rich 5 years ago

My gut reaction is that you are possibly a LP fundamentalist.


domino77 5 years ago

"Question" that was a very patronizing post. I assume you are an advocate of the LP.

Those who have posted on here are not saying the Lightning Process does not help. Some sufferers have recovered using the training, however, others have not. There appears to be inconsistency in the results. So much hope is offered in the promotional material. Hence the understandable criticism. If I were Phil Parker, it would really bother me if a trainee had not been successful learning the LP. I'd want to know why. As a teacher, I would want to see my pupil succeed, even after the 3 day course. Mr Parker has apparently been very successful with his own trainees, but, in view of the varying results elsewhere, I would suggest he periodically check the ability of every practitioner, after all, it is *his* process that they are teaching.


Arison 5 years ago

If I had the "Cure" for M.E I would be telling everyone who would listen how to do it. I would start free support groups, I would get every single person I know with M.E doing this method.

Is this what Phil Parker has done? No. He's made a very healthy profitable business out of it. That you can't argue.

Before you say it yes, others make money out of sick people selling therapies but if the Lightening process and any other "Therapy" that works is every thing you all say it is then why didn't Phil Parker continue with his day job, and recruit others to go out into ME support groups and spread the word?

Oh, Phil Parkers "day job" - check out his shady past for yourself although much has been deleted over the internet so you don't find out. Lucky some people have copies.

To those it has worked for good for you. We won't know why until there is more science behind what ME/CFS is and all these pseudo cures won't get the real science to happen. Be mindful that this HAS NOT worked for everyone and to say it is their own fault is hasn't worked is quite disgusting and proves you have been brainwashed.


Rich 5 years ago

"a little understanding" That's the nub. LP offfers one understanding which may be correct for some and wrong for others. Why can't they just admit it? Why the one size fits all?

With a "little understanding" (no hard work at all required to open your mind alittle) surely LP fundamentalists might understand that.


Arison 5 years ago

I'll tell you why one size fits all Rich - because that's what Phil Parker says, and anyone who disagrees with that doesn't want to get well. Apparently.

It annoys me that people are being challenged about the secrecy surrounding the LP. Why would people make that up?

If this is not true than why is the information not freely available?

Why? Because Phil Parker is a greedy shyster who couldn't bleed money out of people using Osteopathy so he found another way.

I've no problem with the method at all, if it were free, and if Idiot Crawley wasn't currently planning to mess around with already sick Children with this stupid treatment instead of using the money for scientific investigation which is what should happen.


Real Low Down 5 years ago

Rich, Pip, Molly and other repeat spammers - be aware that these people are almost certainly LP vendors pretending to be ME patients.

Why would any healthy person with a real job spend their time repeatedly posting on here? One post perhaps, but repeat posts, not likely.

The only people with the time to do that are people that work only 3 days a month scamming very sick people out of thousands of pounds.


sulamaye 5 years ago

Gordon Bennet, what alot people have to say in judgement of other people - on both sides of this complicated story.

I think regardless of the efficacy of the Lighning Process (it's name does imply, just a little, that it works pretty damn quick don't you think?), regardless of what side of the fence, or your own personal experiences there is one thing that can be legitimately questioned here and this is the nature of the money making aspect of this work.

From what I can tell my local LP place does at least 5 people a month and charges £850 per person that's a turn over of over £50,000 per year for 36 days solid work with up to 3 hours additional for coaching per person so shall we say maybe 62 days work in total per year?

What I would ask any of you to consider is why anyone needs to charge so much for something which they believe is so useful to so many?

I work in the voluntary sector and have experience of NLP being used very positively to change people's lives and I am paid to develop and run a programme for people who have experienced domestic violence, I am also a trained life coach - all very worthwhile work - I am paid £7,000 per year before tax for 2 days a week work - taking into account annual leave that amounts to £7,000 for 96 days per year work.

I am developing an innovative programme from scratch, as have some of my colleagues who work for the same charity. If my work proves beneficial to women who have experienced domestic violence I want it used as much as possible to support as many women as possible. I don't want to financially benefit from this beyond getting paid for the hours I do, because in addition to earning enough to live off my objective is to support people.

I ask you all, from both sides of the fence, to consider why, why why why is it so expensive to do the LP? If you as someone who had experienced ME/CFS/MS whatever had exerienced/ discovered something radically improving for other people why would your priority not be sharing that information/ insight/ experience as widely and as accessibly as possible?

I accept people doing the courses need to be paid for what they do, but why do they have to charge so much? Even if they got paid double what I do, courses could be between £2-300 and still they'd be earning a good hourly rate. Secondly, if you are so convinced of it's properties offer a money back guarantee, or a half money back guarantee even - since I recognise financial investment does motivate commitment for some. Or from the sounds of it, just write a good book that anyone can afford to spread the word.

The issue for me is not that NLP is not a useful tool, or not that some people have deffinitely appeared to benefit from attending the programme it's why so much money is being made out of something that if you have experienced it positively you should want to be as accessible as possible.

It probably does benefit some people - but lets face it anyone with these conditions is desperate for change. I've lived around 3 people with M.E/CFS and am now facing the possibility I might have it too. All those 3 people had it in excess of 16 years, all of them are now fully recovered - not because of any of the 'cures' they tried in desperation over the years, who knows why they got better? Time?

It does no good to snipe at each other and each other's experiences. I thank Sally for sharing hers, it was a useful insight - I would be really grateful if those defending the process could be as informative and explicit in sharing how their training went and the nuts and bolts of it was - in order that people like me can give full consideration to whether it is worth pursuing or not.

Thanks


Sophie 5 years ago

Hello everyone,

I am a university student from Sydney, Australia, currently in 3rd year doing journalism. I am writing a piece this semester on the lightning process, and was wondering if there would be anyone willing out there, from both sides of the argument, to conduct a short interview with me in the coming weeks? Let me know here, and then we can come up with some way to contact each other. I would be very apprecitive to anyone willing to give their time and their views. I am not here to judge, I can see both sides of the story, and i find it greatly intriguing, hence why I am writing an article on it! Thanks everyone, :)


benesse 5 years ago

hi there sophie, just noticed your message about an interview regarding LP. I'm someone who learnt LP but still not right, however i do think it is helping some. I would quite like to help you so will wait for a reply. bye for now


Sophie 5 years ago

Hi there benesse, thank you so much! would really appreciate it...my name is sophie rutherford, perhaps look me up on facebook? there is a picture of me and a girlfriend, i have dark hair and a fringe straight across my face..thanks, look forward to hearing from you :)


benesse 5 years ago

hello there sophie, i'm not on facebook and when i went to sign up i couldn't as it said my email address was associated with another account, probably my 14 year old son's.do you have any other ideas?. i could look you up on my son's facebook account or would it be safe to leave one of our email addresses on here. what do you think. robin


Sophie 5 years ago

Hi there Robin, email would be fine, mine is sophs49@yahoo.com.au, thanks so much, look forward to hearing from you! :)


Lauren 5 years ago

Wow, fascinating article and debate. I feel I can identify with both sides, as my attitude to these therapies has changed over time. This is just my personal experience, so obviously not gospel, but I thought I'd share it in case there's anyone else in the same boat.

I've had ME for the last 6 years. During the first four or five years of my illness, I'd get upset and offended when anyone suggested that a therapy like this might help me. It seemed to completely invalidate the intense physical suffering I was going through and imply that the very real symptoms I was experiencing on a daily basis were somehow all in my head. I couldn't believe that something like this could possibly change the way my body was functioning.

I suppose my attitudes started to change after seeing two people I knew personally make amazing recoveries- both had ME, one for 20 years and the other for 3. The first did the LP and quickly regained a full and active life, getting her first ever job, part time at first and then full time. The second did a similar therapy and was also fully recovered within a few sessions, also taking on full time work.

Initially, my antagonism remained, and I found myself coming up with new reasons why these treatments couldn't possibly work for me- I was sure my symptoms were somehow worse than either of these two friends' had been, and perhaps they didn't even have ME at all but had actually been suffering from forms of depression.

Over time, however, as I became increasingly frustrated with what little the NHS has to offer, and regained my drive to get well (something that I think most people with long term illnesses lose temporarily at some point in the midst of so much suffering), I started to reevaluate. Why was I so hostile to these therapies? What did I have to lose by trying them? OK, they were both expensive, but if they would give me even a chance of getting my life back then no price would be too much to pay. The huge potential gain I'd seen first hand in my friends' lives was staring me in the face and I'd have been mad to choose to carry on ignoring that when there was a chance of getting well again.

I actually decided to go for the other therapy- I won't mention its name on here in case I get accused of being a salesperson by one of the many conspiracy theorists who seem to wait in the wings in discussions like these, ready to pounce whenever there's a whiff of a success story! After three sessions, I'd say my symptoms have reduced by about 20%, and my confidence, which was inevitably low after 6 years of being virtually housebound, has sky-rocketed, giving me a much higher quality of life. Obviously I want to get 100% well, and am hopeful that with more sessions I will. If not, I will definitely give the LP a go. Yes, it's not cheap, but when you truly want to get well, you'd give anything to make that happen.


Jonty 5 years ago

Reading Lauren's story just confirms to me that the LP only deals with the depression. Being 20% better and more confident is a pyscological effect of the hope that it has given her (and I'm not knocking that, I just think you can get it cheaper elsewhere). If she has real M.E which is a complex range of neurological and endocrine problems they will sadly be dashed.


Lauren 5 years ago

Jonty, I can completely understand where you’re coming from- as I mentioned in my first comment, my hostility towards these kinds of alternative therapies meant that I immediately jumped on the whole ‘closet depression’ argument as a way of explaining the success my friends had had. In the end, however, logic convinced me otherwise. I should perhaps have made it clear that both my friends who recovered were officially diagnosed with ME by specialists. One had been ill for 20 years, so had racked up a LOT of appointments at the ME clinic; when I thought about it rationally, I figured that these doctors, many of whom have specialised in ME for years, might just be able to tell the difference between the ‘complex neurological and endocrine problems’ you talk of, and depression. If they can’t, then there’s really no hope of any of us being sure whether we have ME or depression, is there? Unless, of course, we all do the LP- that way we can sift out the ones who recover and label them as never having had ME in the first place!

As for the exact nature of the illness, I think it’s a very grey area- my experience of it is that it’s a horrible, debilitating physical illness that affects many bodily systems in often visible ways. I do find it strange that, unlike the vast majority of other debilitating physical illnesses, ME is virtually invisible on blood tests, scans etc. Many of my friends have suffered with ill health, and although they’ve been less debilitated than I have by ME, their test results have been very definitely abnormal. This illness seems unique in the combination of its devastating physical effects with test results which show reasonably healthy functioning in all obvious areas. Perhaps, therefore, a unique approach is necessary to treat this unusual disease, and I think the idea that some form of hidden mental or emotional stress could be the trigger and maintainer of the physical effects is worth serious consideration. Science is producing compelling evidence that stress is a key cause of many real, measurable physical illnesses (including cancer), and I think we need to accept that ME isn’t immune from the increasingly well-documented link between mind and body.

At the end of the day, I think that deciding whether or not to go for a therapy like this boils down to how willing you are to open up your mind to new ideas and challenge your own beliefs, as well as those of others. I for one have reached the point where I can’t stomach any more waiting around for an elusive miracle pill while trying to prove that medication and medication alone will treat the symptoms I’m experiencing. That now sounds as foolish to me as claiming that depression is a mental illness, and therefore will not respond to anything but a talking therapy.


Jonty 5 years ago

Lauren, I should have said, I've already done the LP and it didn't work, despite doing everything they told me. I have also now had private tests not available on the NHS and they are definitely abnormal. I would advise anyone who has the money to have private tests. I'm glad you are getting some relief but you need to know that not everyone does.


Lauren 5 years ago

Thanks Jonty, I will bear that in mind. I suppose I am a bit biased, given the fact that both the people I know who've tried these therapies have completely recovered, so it's interesting to hear the other side of the story. Sorry the LP didn't work for you- fair play for giving it a go though.

Like you, I've also had private tests which showed abnormalities, but nothing came of them, and the medications I tried as a result had either no effect or unpleasant side-effects that just made things worse. In the end I concluded that the number of tiny things they test for at these private clinics will probably result in abnormalities showing up for just about everybody! After all, you're paying them to find something wrong with you. To me, this now seems like as much of a con as therapies like LP sound to a lot of other ME sufferers. I think the fact that the standard NHS tests (which, let's face it, are comprehensive enough to pick up everything from a broken toe to cancer) come back as normal is reason enough to say that whatever's causing our awful symptoms isn't the result of a major, measurable change in our physiology.

That said, I really hope that you find the tests you've had helpful and that in your case, they will produce a successful treatment. Please let me know if you do find anything that solves your problems- I'm by no means averse to trying more conventional treatments as well as alternative therapies!


Lucinda 5 years ago

Thank you for this review on the lightning process.

When I was hospitalised the doctors told me my symptoms were somatic. My psychiatrist told the doctors he didn't think it was somatisation and I finally got diagnosed with ME/CFS and IBS. They were reluctant to even test me for anything!

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