Why Porn is Bad for Men

Pornography is bad for men because it causes men to have unrealistic views of a woman's body, to be unsatisfied with real women and to separate sex from intimacy which results in a life of loneliness, separation, lack of intimacy and impotence. Magazines use the most beautiful women to sell their wares and even those women are touched up and airbrushed. Pornography teaches men to look to the physical side of a woman rather than encouraging him to love her for her soul and mind first. The physical will change but the soul and mind usually stays the same.

The effect of pornography on men is dissatisfaction with normal women. Normal women can't live up to unrealistic expectations, nor should they. But when faced with unrealistic expectations women internalize these expectations causing them to feel inadequate, the result is that they do not want to be intimate (further exasperating men) because they don't feel beautiful when compared to the perfect images displayed in magazines and on computers. Dissatisfaction always occurs when expectations are unrealistically high. Naomi Wolf wrote about this in The Beauty Myth, her book is below.

I read somewhere that the Danes are the happiest people on the face of the earth and do you want to know why they are the happiest people on the face of the earth? It's because they have low expectations from life. When you have low or even normal expectations you have nowhere to go but up, but when you have unrealistically high expectations you are forced into disappointment, you have no where to go but down.


Moreover, pornography teaches men to separate sex from intimacy and love. It divorces the sex act from relationship which makes having a relationship difficult and as many have found impossible. In addition, it discourages the integration of love and intimacy which leads to a life of loneliness, separation and selfishness. I had a friend who had an addiction to pornography, he lived a life of loneliness because he could not force himself to be attracted to real women. He would like to have a normal, satisfying relationship but he can't, the only thing that attracts him are images of unrealistic celluloid women, women who don't exist and women that are objects. His life is filled with a secret desperation that he no longer controls. There are many men that once their pornography addiction takes hold they can no longer have relations with real women. The addiction rules them, they don't rule it.

Pornography is like a drug addiction, the more you feed it the more it wants and the less control you have over it. The book of Proverbs admonishes: Drink water from your own well – share your love only with your wife. Don't destroy the gift of intimacy by having sex with just anyone. It should be protected and then shared with that one special person and used to build up your relationship, not squandered. Don't share it with strangers thereby destroying your own life. Let your wife be a fountain of blessing for you. Rejoice in the wife of your youth. She is a loving doe, a graceful deer. Let her breasts satisfy you always. May you always be captivated by her love. Why be captivated, my son, with an immoral woman, or embrace the breasts of an adulterous woman? For the LORD sees clearly what a man does, examining every path he takes. An evil man is held captive by his own sins; they are ropes that catch and hold him. He will die for lack of self-control; he will be lost because of his incredible folly. This generation has experienced the slavery of sin in full force due to pornography and the result has been destroyed families, destroyed relationships and destroyed lives. No truer words were said.


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Comments 255 comments

man_of_sub_stance 7 years ago

I couldn't agree more! It does damage a person. In fact, it also desensitizes the viewer as to stimulus, making it harder for him to perform (so I've read). Also, keeping expectations in check is a good way to maintain a healthy perspective. I've always been surprised by intimacy with women, and very rarely disappointed, probably due to my expectations. It's a good thing!


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Good for you. I think this problem is epidemic in the world today and it's ruining people's relationships and families...sad really.


walther 7 years ago

regarding the effects of porn on males' (and females') ideals of physical beauty: there IS porn with "average" women, even amateur porn. Why don't people seek that out? I DO consume porn - sometimes with my girlfriend - and the people in the porn I watch look like you and me, imperfect, real and beautiful. I have dated women of all shapes and women considered both conventionally beautiful and, frankly, unattractive.

Regarding the Danes (from the BBC article on that study):

"Our research indicates prosperity is linked with happiness. It does contribute, but it is not the most important factor.

"Personal freedom is even more important, and it's freedom in all kinds of ways. Political freedom, like with democracy and freedom of choice."

...

Dr Inglehart says that gender equality is also an indicator of happiness, as is sing social tolerance. He says that both of these things have risen dramatically in recent years.

<end quote>

Appreciated your article, but the last bit about God and marriage is a bit old-fashioned and clearly shows your biases.


Pornaddict 7 years ago

Drink water from you own well? What if that well is DRY?


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I appreciate your comments Walter and you do know we all have our bents. :)

Brie


Triplet Mom profile image

Triplet Mom 7 years ago from West Coast

Brie, great hub however I have to say there is also an opposing side to your hub. I do not find anything wrong with porn as long as it is in moderation, sometimes it can even enhance the sex life. Nowadays there are all types and sizes of women in porn; different fetish types as well. I also think you are correct in the need to be able to distinquish between fantasy and reality which sometimes those hard core viewers might not be able to do. Thanks for sharing.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Pornaddict: If the well is dry..dig deeper.


LondonGirl profile image

LondonGirl 7 years ago from London

I think men looking at too much porn can lead to them objectifying women, rather than seeing them as people.

Far too much porn is also very exploitative, and produced by unwilling participants.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I agree completely LondonGirl!

Brie


DrMemory1701 profile image

DrMemory1701 7 years ago from Occupied France

A classic line from the movie, "Bladerunner" when Harrison Ford is giving Sean Young the 'void komp' test, asking her if her husband wanted to hang a picture of a pretty woman on their bedroom wall when they make love, would she let him. She answers, "No, I should be enough for him."

If every woman looked like Sean Young, maybe their wouldn't be a need for pornography. I have been married to my second wife for 24 years and we are...yech! dare I say it? Soulmates. I watch videos and she reads the dirtiest of romance novels (sleazy sex included). She doesn't prevent me nor I her.

I would say that pornography is usually an adolescent's first introduction to sex. I say it is the first because most parents, guardians, teachers, and persons of the cloth are reluctant to explain and when they do, their explanations are vague and misleading.

If our society could climb down off its holier than thou pedestal and be honest about the subject, maybe people wouldn't be drawn to the forbidden fruit.


ecuasionz 7 years ago

What about the women who think ever man should wax his entire body including his pubes?What about the women who are obsessed with metrosexual men. So, are they watching too much porn as well. It's a two way street you know.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I agree, I just didn't write an article about them yet!


LondonGirl profile image

LondonGirl 7 years ago from London

There are very few women like that, surely? I know none.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I agree LondonGirl and the few I've heard of I think they are weird.


ecuasionz 7 years ago

Well read up and keep your ears openthey are all over on and offline usually ranging from 20-mid 30's especially in NY.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I would be against that as well, whether it is towards men or women I think that the exploitation should be opposed.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I think porn is bad becuase it gives women the wrong impression of how good men can perform in bed. And then its bad when your woman looks at the guys on screen then looks back at you and laughs.


ecuasion 7 years ago

goldentoad

Agreed. I think porn can defile women as well as men, equally at that. Porn was made for men originally, but women have been affected the same way. They expect men to perform like a pornstar, wax like a pornstar, have the physique of a pornstar and be hung as long and wide as a porn star. On top of that you have to have a new model german car, money in the bank(even during this recession/depression, be over 6 ft tall, own a house and a condo and take trips to Europe regularly. I think you get the picture. Women have a laundry list of requirements or prerequistes for men and porn only would only add to the list. So, let men have their porn if they need it, it's just good to have in moderation.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Ecuasion, I think you missed the point. That's like saying let men have their cancer if they want it. Just because it affects women too (although I don't think nearly as much as men in the way you described it) doesn't mean it's ok.


Johnny 7 years ago

if we as people cant find, hold, have the finer things in life through our every day life we all need to fantasize to kill our desire for what we don't have,


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Fantasizing doesn't kill your desire for what you don't have, it only fuels it.


Rainbow Brite 7 years ago

Dr. Memory, excellent insight, I could not agree more!

Brie...well, sweetheart, I think we will just have to agree to disagree here. Your religious views (although entirely within your rights to possess) have poisoned your mind, sealing it shut from the beautiful options set before us all. Are you aware that the number of species that mate for life is minimal (nearly non-existant) when compared to the number of species that mate with multiple partners or mate solely for the purpose of repopulation? We are the highest on the foodchain, and yet people who share your views insist on repressing our very basest instincts. Alternate lifestyles exist because people have chosen to transcend your oppression.

As for those of you that say that you have not seen or heard of many females with these qualities....well...looks like you've been quite sheltered.

Your friend with the porn addiction is an extreme case and not at all the norm. I do feel for him, as addiction in any form is an ugly creature, but he is not the average man's opinion of porn.

In general, I feel that your hub is merely an opinion based on a very small amount of experience and a very closed mind. But, that's the great thing about opinions...everyone has one, and they all stink!


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Charles Manson has an open mind, does that make him right?


Rainbow Brite 7 years ago

Charles Manson had some interesting ideologies he merely executed them incorrectly. And just to be clear, Charles Manson DID NOT have an open mind, he too was convinced that his ideas were the only "right" way to live. No one has the power to say what is right and what is wrong for anyone but him or her self. As the old adage goes, "My right to swing ends where the other man's nose begins."


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

You just contradicted yourself.


Rainbow Brite 7 years ago

Actually no I did not. Having an open mind means that you are open to hearing others' opinions without feeling the need to tell them how wrong they are and why. Charles Manson is interesting to me because I love abnormal psychology, which he could be the poster child for. He KILLED people for not believing as he did...that is the most closed minded thing I can think of. However, I would love to know how one goes about developing a god complex quite that strong. Hence interesting ideology, closed mind.


Rainbow Brite 7 years ago

And while we're talking about contradictions, you quote the bible but you enjoy reading about the Illuminati? ... riiiight....well keep reading honey, the Illuminati were originally a pagan cult!


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

If I must spell it out for you...you contradicted yourself when you said that no one has the right to say what is right or wrong and then you quoted the adage: As the old adage goes, "My right to swing ends where the other man's nose begins." which implies making a judgement call of when something is right and when something is wrong.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I know exactly who the Illuminatti were/are. You don't have to agree with them to study them but maybe you don't understand that either.


Rainbow Brite 7 years ago

Simply because you feel it is right to beat the living hell out of someone does not mean that that person agrees with you that it is right for you to beat the living hell out of them....by beating them you are making a judgement call for them which is out of your scope of rights.  So, that wasn't a contradiction either!  Wow you have succeeded in amazing me with the extent of your narrowmindedness....that's not something that happens very often.  Congratulations!

And yes, you're right...there's a lot about you and your opinions that I do not understand and have no desire to even attempt to understand.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Maybe you should take a course in comprehension...I never said the things that you are attributing to me. And, while you're at it a course in logic because your argument makes no sense


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

Whilst porn does little for me, I have no problem with men viewing it if it works for them. I do know a number of couples who enjoy porn films and find them stimulating to their sex life, even though it doesn't work like that for me.

Porn magazines are often provided in clinics where semen samples are required, so I guess it is fairly well accepted in general.

Porn films always bored me somewhat, or even made me laugh, but everyone is different, so I prefer not to judge harshly one way or the other.


Cris A profile image

Cris A 7 years ago from Manila, Philippines

As to what one does while watching is his own business. It's what he does after watching it that matters to the people around him to some extent.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

My wife now wants to be with another woman and without me involved, this is a direct result of this stuff as I thought the lesbian movies were supposed to for me to just mildly excite us, and now our marriage is on the rocks.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I do think that the fact that many of the women involved are not doing this voluntarily, that that should matter as well. The Sex traffic problem is a moral concern as well.


Teresa McGurk profile image

Teresa McGurk 7 years ago from The Other Bangor

[Porn calms Danish seniors, staff say

Sep 5, 2001 ... The caregivers have told Danish media that pornography is healthier, cheaper and easier to use than medicine, Lars Elmsted Petersen. . .]

I'm not sure that your premise is cogent. Pornography that exploits women is wrong. But saying that pornography is bad for men is like saying that masturbation is bad for everyone. It is a generalization and an opinion.

However, choosing such a provoking title would seem to have garnered you a lot of traffic, so well done.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Well Theresa, I think that Naomi Wolf would argue the point as well so I think that I am in good company.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I am bothered that no one is talking about how women are affected too, I tried to bring this up earlier but its equally dangerous for both sexes. why would anyone need this form of entertainment, men or women!!!!!


Cris A profile image

Cris A 7 years ago from Manila, Philippines

toady

i think your problem lies not in the porn you watch with the wifey. but i bet you know where the rub lies? :D


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I agree that it is very dangerous for women as well, I just don't think that women peruse porn as much as men.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I wish that were true Brie but living in LA has tainted my opinion of that. This is the home of Playboy and Hustler. They got casinos in the middle of LA, and just advertising it all over. Makes me sick.

Cris- I do not understand what you are getting at.


Leta S 7 years ago

Well, first, I am Danish, and--I want to say that the Scandinavian countries have the highest standard of living in the world. Incidentally, that coincides with the lowest television watching rates in the world. So I think it is not that Danes have low expectations of life, but that they just may be fully ENGAGED in life.

I am of a divided mind concerning porn. I used to have no problem watching it with a boyfriend as a couple. I also feel it probably helps some lonely men/women, etc. out there. After a while it is so poorly, poorly done, however, I don't know how a relatively sophisticated person can find it sexy..... Maybe that has again to do with being fully engaged in life, too, I don't know.

Unrealistic expectations? I'm inclined to laugh at porn--lol--because I know real life, ahem, has always been better.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I can tell you I caught my wife watching porn and was quite bothered, I got rid of that channel forever. I think it was very irresponsible of her to be watching it while the kids were awake watching sponge bob squarepants in the other room.


Leta S 7 years ago

GT--Your wife sounds kind of immature... Is she tired of 'being married' or something?


Cris A profile image

Cris A 7 years ago from Manila, Philippines

GT - can you ever get more lost? (wink)


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I think she has become influenced by other sources or people and I attribute porn to some of her behaviour.


Leta S 7 years ago

Probably she thinks its 'cool.' Cooler than what she's got already--which if she goes over to the greener grass, she might find some dandelions, too. :( Sorry.

When I get bored, traveling always helps me, lol! Porn is kinda boring. Go on a trip together and get away?


kristinemac profile image

kristinemac 7 years ago from Michigan

Thank you for this well written, excellent article on the devestating effects of pornography.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Lita- I'm ready to let her go, I can't have that kind of woman around my kids if she is going to start indulging in fantasies. I wish I could understand her better but the closer I get the more she seems to push away. Maybe its my fault for working so much and that has given her too much "free" time. I agree porn is boring, especially the lesbian stuff she's was watching.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

GT, I feel for you, I really do. I would feel so inadequate if I were to find my partner watching porn. and I don't even have children like you do. Porn does nothing for me, but maybe to her it is a lifeline if you are always at work. Perhaps you sould try to make more time to spend with her on a one to one basis!


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Thoughts and fantasies are one thing MistyHorizon2003, but I feel she is taking it a step further, a sudden change in behaviour is very alarming and I don't want the kids to get hurt but what can I do? What happens when I'm gone? Are her "friends" really just friends? She is leaving me all day tomorrow since I went to Vegas last weekend, and I feel she is up to something.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Goldentoad: Why don't you set up a hidden camera when you are gone, then you will know, then you can make decisions based upon knowing and not just wondering.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Thanks for the effort, but I think the problems are the combination of exterior influences as well as myself, in perhaps ways I fail to recognize. I want to question her friends but I don't know if that's wise of me or if I should just let it all out on the table. Like I said, I already caught her in the act and she is a different woman from when we first met and my main concern is the kids.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I think it's admirable to try and protect the kids, they are your main concern.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Besides GT adultry is adultry whether it is with a man or a woman and you are within your rights to protect your children as well as yourself.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

mistyhorizon2003, and Brie, I appreciate your concerns but I don't know if I can write anymore about this as it becomes more painful and more clear what I have to do. I'm not sure Brie if I even need to set up a camera as I'm sure if i just confront her, I will probably get the answer I don't want to hear.

Brie, I just read your comments but I think the State of CA will still favor her.


Cris A profile image

Cris A 7 years ago from Manila, Philippines

GT - of course I was kidding a while back. But now, realizing the gravity of your problems... well you can always call on God for guidance or seek the help of a a marriage counsellor and the like.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

GT, I don't think the state of California would, I am originally from CA and know a lot (well not a lot but a fair number) of women who lost custody because of marital infidelity. The film would help your case as well. But I would seek out a good lawyer first. Afterall, it is your kids at stake.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Thanks Cris- I thought about going to my pastor but I didn't want to seem paranoid or have him think less of her too, like I said, maybe some of its my fault but if I found the truth, I won't bother with a counselor.

Brie- I just read your comment again, but I couldn't have sole custody as I am the only one who works and I work long hours as a construction manager, like right now, I am still at work, dealing with rain damages and preparation for flooding.


Christoph Reilly profile image

Christoph Reilly 7 years ago from St. Louis

G.T. You and I are friends and I'm sorry to hear about your wife's pornography problem. I don't think you should confront her yet. The camera idea by Brie is not a bad idea. Look, I'm a licensed private investigator--I don't practice anymore--but I think you should tail her when she leaves tomorrow. It's not hard to tail someone if you know a few tricks. I can explain them to you. You need to catch her in the act! Then there will be no wiggle room for her to make up excuses! Ok?


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

CR- I will have the kids tomorrow all day as she goes out, it is possible while she is gone to look into her computer files and yes, I actually have a camera I used for when I am gone from the kids and we have a babysitter, just in case, I can remotely link to it, if I get to that point.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

It really can't hurt (the camera that is).


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

You don't think I should just confront her?


Christoph Reilly profile image

Christoph Reilly 7 years ago from St. Louis

Is it too late to get the sitter for tomorrow? You could drop off the kids at the sitter's earlier and be back before she goes. California has strict laws about P.I.s...you have to be licensed and what not...but a husband can do it, no problems. I can tell you what to say to the police if you get in hot water, too. They'll be pretty sympathetic, but they will tell you you have to knock it off.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

GT, I urge you to take as much advice as possible from Christoph. He really does know what he is talking about and can help you. I have known him for a long time now, and he reminds me of "Magnum" if you remember that series back in the 70's / 80's (I think). The ideal P.I. who can help you solve all kinds of problems. I truly hope he can help you to end any pain you are now going through. It may hurt for a while, but time heals all wounds.


Christoph Reilly profile image

Christoph Reilly 7 years ago from St. Louis

No, Brie, it's not a bad idea. In fact it's a very good one. Safer that way, but it depends: She might be so familiar with the camera--I presume she knows about it with the kids and stuff--she might get wise to the situation, and that could cause her to get very secretive in the future, making it difficult to find out for sure.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

CR- I may contact you on some additional info, I worry the six year old would expose what I was doing and I would want to take precautions more ahead of time.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

You could consider contacting "Cheaters" as seen on TV (Zone Romantica). They won't even charge you if they use your footage in one of their episodes, plus they get it all on tape if you need it as evidence in court.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Mistyhorizon2003, that would be exploitation of the entire situation, its bad enough I am exposing myself on here like this, what if all my family saw that or my friends and if I do catch her with a woman, that would only make it that much more damaging to myself.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

But you have nothing to be ashamed of, so the only person left embarassed should be her. Your family and friends will no doubt sympathise with you and feel her exposure was justly deserved!


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I agree GT, I don't think that a T.V. show would help the situation in the least...I do still think that you should discuss the situation with a good lawyer though.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

i don't look at it that way Mistyhorizon2003, I think it may show my failings as a married man, and I put emphasis on the man part.

Brie, I just read your comment, there is a lawyer in my church group, I might consult him Sunday, I'm worried though he might say something to her.


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 7 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

Fair enough GT, but I don't feel she has the right to do what she is doing to you based on your 'man' part alone.

Lawyers are bound by condifentiality rules, but I am not certain if you have to be their client first. If he is a mutual friend he may not wish to get involved, and it would possibly be best to get a brand new lawyer who has no connections to either of you.


ajcor profile image

ajcor 7 years ago from NSW. Australia

Gt I couldn't agree more with the advice you are receiving from CR, Misty , CrisA and of course Brie., you know that kids always talk - and you never know your wife in her presumed guilt may have promised lollies or a trip to the zoo to your 6 year old if he/she keeps tabs on you - so listen to CHris and get that P.I. involved so that you get to keep your kids and the dog and the jumping rabbit etc.....go well ...cheers


Leta S 7 years ago

Wow. This begins to sound very serious. I'm really sorry for you, GT. I don't think you should stay in that situation. I'd take your kids and move on.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Thanks MistyHorizon2003,Lita, and Ajcor- But I don't know now if I should go home right now either. I don't know if I should play it cool, like nothing or what? I'm agitated right now, real agitated.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Always play it cool, always no matter what.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Okay Brie, I'm signing off now, I'll stay cool, don't worry. thanks. maybe it's all for the best.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Have faith, be cool and leave the rest to God, Have a good night.


Christoph Reilly profile image

Christoph Reilly 7 years ago from St. Louis

Brie is right. No matter what. If you lose your head, you might do something...silly or something.


S.C. Vital Speed profile image

S.C. Vital Speed 7 years ago from NJ

As much as I hate to say it, I think I agree with you. lol. really well written hub by the way.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Thanks S.C.Vital Speed


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Last night when I came home, my wife was gone and the babysitter was playing video games with the kids. My wife didn't tell me anything about going out and we can't afford the babysitter right now, but I paid the babysitter anyways. When I tried calling my wife, there was no answer, she didn't come home until two thirty. We immediately started arguing but I let it be since she was drunk and it was raining outside, and I was actually worried if she went back out. This morning she acted like nothing and kept on text messaging someone and I grabbed for her phone and found out it was a girl named Lucy she was out with and I took the phone and ran to the restroom with it. There were all kinds of pictures from this girl and it made me sick, dirty "self" pictures and pictures of my wife at the bar. I couldn't take it and just told her to leave. She didn't care and took her keys and left. I tried calling her right now but I just feel conflicted, part of me feels like a complete idiot, a real tool, for not seeing signs earlier. And now the kids are asking for her.


Cris A profile image

Cris A 7 years ago from Manila, Philippines

I am at loss for words toady. and i don't know if it's from imagining the dire straits you're in or your honestry.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I have nowhere else to really turn Cris, I feel way too embarrassed to say anything to any of my friends or family. A lesbian, I can't believe it, after all this time. I feel like drinking right now but I got the kids and I'm worried what I'll do if she comes home.


Cris A profile image

Cris A 7 years ago from Manila, Philippines

I have never been in a situation as "different" as this. So the only thing I can say is that keep your head above water and weigh things carefully. And put the children's welfare above all else.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I will Cris, I tried getting into her computer and was shocked to see files and files of pictures both straight and lesbian pornographic photos. I am looking to find someone who can get me into her e-mail, as I think I have to build a solid case against her. But again, it gets to the point of who do i trust to keep this information to themselves, how do I not get embarrassed while exposing the truth. stupid, stupid, stupid, I can say it a million times and it still is not enough.


Cris A profile image

Cris A 7 years ago from Manila, Philippines

Have you no friends? I mean real friends who you might have turned to in troubled times such as this in the past?


Teresa McGurk profile image

Teresa McGurk 7 years ago from The Other Bangor

I hope you won't think this intrusive of me, but I couldn't help noticing your comments, Golden T., last night about your wife. Would it be uncalled for if I said something? I know we're hijacking the hub; but I think Brie can agree that this is serious. Toad, many more women are bisexual than you might think. This might not be the end of your marriage, unless you actively turn your wife away. After a fling with Lucy, she might come home again. Many, many women have done so. No, men don't like the idea. I can only imagine how upset you are. But unless you want to end the marriage, don't push her away (if her being bi disgusts you, then you need to do what you need to do). It says NOTHING about who you are -- women are beautiful. Men like women. Does it seem so surprising that women like women, too? They're gorgeous.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I have lot of friends, a ton, but I have never been in a situation like this and they would just laugh. If they didn't laugh to my face, they would laugh behind my back, I just know they would.

Theresa-

I know women are beautiful but that should be my problem, not hers. It just goes beyond all our boundaries of marriage and maybe its just my ego being deflated, this anger that is coming from me, but what if a woman caught her husband with another man, how would she feel? More hurt, or should it matter?


Cris A profile image

Cris A 7 years ago from Manila, Philippines

Teresa's got a great point. It's just probably your disgust that makes the whole thing complicated. Put it aside and think that infidelity is infidelity regardless of the genders involved. And try to think without hate.


Leta S 7 years ago

This is still going on? I'm so sorry. Then you maybe need to get serious about it. Maybe turnabout is fair play, GT. If you started looking at gay porn, it might teach her a lesson about what it is like for you watching her watch the lesbian stuff.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

But it is the whole irony of it all that is eating me up! I was the one who first brought those videos into the bedroom, as just an experimental thing, and its gone way too far. What else did I do to trigger all this? I thought I was being normal.

Lita- I don't know if I can do that, even as revenge, I can handle the straight stuff and the lesbian stuff, but for me that's a bit much and I wouldn't want to give her anymore ideas or something she could take to court on me.


Teresa McGurk profile image

Teresa McGurk 7 years ago from The Other Bangor

I used to think that nothing could be worse in a relationship than infidelity. Then somehow, I got to be 49 (how the hell did that happen?), and I find that the worst situation you can encounter in a relationship is a lack of trust (something quite different). Maybe you guys need to talk as calmly and patiently as you both can. And with respect and admiration for each other. That may not seem possible right now. Take a deep breath, and know that a lot of folk here have your back.


Cris A profile image

Cris A 7 years ago from Manila, Philippines

Or it could be something not as serious as you think it to be. Otherwise she might have started reacting differently everytime you...well...do it. Well?


Leta S 7 years ago

I know. It is ironic. You shouldn't blame yourself, GT.  And like I said above, I find porn kinda boring, hardly worth my time. It's just I know that sometimes tough love is the only thing that works. Kind of like an intervention.


eovery profile image

eovery 7 years ago from MIddle of the Boondocks of Iowa

I have to agree that I have pornography mess up a lot of people. It is better to stay away from it.

And by the way, Good luck Toady


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Teresa- thanks, I think hubpages is the only place I can go with this. and I want to try have trust and I know its probably been hard for her, well not lately, I guess she prefers something else now, but I think maybe my work has gotten the way of alot things. But I thought a woman wanted a man who was dedicated to working.

And Cris- things are different if I understand what you are saying, she wants different things, but I'm not willing to do that.

Lita- I don't find porn a way of life, it was just a curiousity of sorts, a playful thing but not anymore

thanks eovery- you have always been supportive


Teresa McGurk profile image

Teresa McGurk 7 years ago from The Other Bangor

Oh Toady -- men want to work hard to show women they are good providers. Meanwhile women are at home thinking: why doesn't he want to come home?


eovery profile image

eovery 7 years ago from MIddle of the Boondocks of Iowa

I have several friends how have broken marriages because he worked nights, and she didn't like to sleep alone.


Leta S 7 years ago

You're right, Teresa. I think that's part of it. Modern women aren't so bound by the old fashioned paradigm of men as provider while she stays at home. They might appreciate a man who provides for them and the kids, but they want other things as well. They have needs, and now they aren't afraid to admit it or act upon them.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Teresa- so what's a man to do? I admit I am too tired much of the time to do commit to the bedroom. I admit this. I admit I was the one who started the pornography experiment. But it still doesn't give her the right to take it that much further does it? what did she see in all that? Like Lita said, for the most part its boring, at first its exciting but then what? This!


Teresa McGurk profile image

Teresa McGurk 7 years ago from The Other Bangor

What's a man supposed to do? Be kind. What's anyone supposed to do in a marriage? Be kind to each other, and take care of the kids. Again, Dear Toad, don't push your wife away unless you really can't deal with this. Don't beat yourself up, either, about having introduced the porn in the first place. Be kind to yourself, as well. This sounds trite, I know: but it might be the best place to start, for now.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Teresa- I would have worked on things in way I could, if it meant having more sex, going to couseling, you name it. I thing she just went over the line now, and to think what she may be doing right now is driving me crazy, she could be doing ANYTHING, I've seen enough of the photos that have burned my mind, truly nasty pictures, and I'm going to burn her computer, I'm so mad.


Leta S 7 years ago

You might HAVE to do an intervention, GT. I don't know what else you could do. If you burn her computer, you're more apt to drive her into the arms of a real woman, you know.


Mighty Mom profile image

Mighty Mom 7 years ago from Where Left is Right, CA

Hello GT and HP friends. I'm coming into this a day late. Following the comments down, I must admit I thought you were being your usual tongue-in-cheek GT self there for several go-rounds. So I will start with an apology for not seeing GT's plight for what it is.

Here's what I know about spouses who cheat. It's often less about sex than it is about attention. It sounds like you've been working a lot. And money has been tight. And no doubt both you and your wife are under stress -- more than usual. Your wife has been escaping into a fantasy world of porn. Not the healthiest place to retreat, but maybe she's bored and angry that you've been less available to her. Then, along comes someone who seems exciting and pays attention to her.

You can try to confront her (using "I" statements instead of "You" statements -- that is, unless you want to make her all defensive right off the bat). But don't expect her to be honest. She may not even know why she is doing this. Is it possible she's acting out to force your hand? Or to get your attention?

The bottom line for you is what are you willing to tolerate? Is infidelity a deal-breaker for you in your marriage? Are you willing to go to counseling together -- because finding your way back to each other across the chasm is not easy.

Final MM comment. Would it be less offensive to you if your wife was with another man? Attractions happen and as Theresa and others say, bisexuality is more common that many people think. If your wife is smart, she will be able to think through the ramifications of losing her marriage and starting a new life with "Lucy." Your bringing porn into the bedroom is NOT the cause of this. YOU are not the cause of this. So if you're feeling guilty, please don't. Oh. One more thing. We are here for you, GT!


Cris A profile image

Cris A 7 years ago from Manila, Philippines

Lita's right. Besides what about the environment if you burn it? Or sell it on ebay if you want it out of your sight. You need not be destructive. And first and foremost get of a hold of yourself.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

You brought tear to my eyes MM. I'm shaking right now.


Teresa McGurk profile image

Teresa McGurk 7 years ago from The Other Bangor

I once looked in my BF's journal, because I suspected he was having an affair. What I read not only confirmed that suspicion, but it also was very graphic about how he had sex with her and every word I read burned into the back of my eyeballs. But I shouldn't have read his diary. It wasn't mine to read. If you want to take your anger out on something, good. Go clean the kitchen, do a load of laundry, put all your energy into being a good dad right now. You'll be glad you did, I promise.


eovery profile image

eovery 7 years ago from MIddle of the Boondocks of Iowa

GT,

I think you need to do something. I know with you drinking habits, I don't want you to come home all liquored up and do something you will regret later. You need to possible separate for a while and get this under control. I don't want you in any trouble. You are a level headed man, but please do not drink much at this time.

Take care. !!!!


Leta S 7 years ago

God, that happened to me, too, Teresa. Almost the exact same description. Infidelity is so tough emotionally. But doing anything to get your mind off it, like laundry, does help. In my situation, I was lucky that no children were involved.

Hang in there, GT.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

GT, I'm truly sorry for your troubles. Right now you are in the thick of it and it's hard to see clearly. Is it possible to get a separation so that you can have a bit of space and try to think clearly?


Mighty Mom profile image

Mighty Mom 7 years ago from Where Left is Right, CA

Sorry for all the advice coming at you from all sides. Probably feels like a bunch of daggers sticking into you, eh?

Cris is right, too. Get a hold of yourself. Take a deep breath. The more you obsess about what your wife is doing and who she's with, the more power you give over to her. Keep the power with you, man! You want to be dealing with this from a position of strength, not weakness.

One thing I've found very helpful is to write it out. Not necessarily here on HP (although what the hey, if you can make some $ from your turmoil, why not). Write out fast and furious everything you're feeling. You can write it in the form of a letter to your wife. You won't show it to her, it's just to get the toxic feelings out of you.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Teresa- I've called the babysitter and she's agreed to come watch the kids

 

eovery- I think its too late, I cannot handle this right now, and I am going to have to get a drink, I have been on the wagon for sometime now and I'm sure it will settle my nerves. I will let the babysitter here to watch the kids and I just sent a text message to the wife- not to come home or I will call the police on her this time.

As far the infidelity thing goes, I guess if I was approached about everything before hand I wouldn't be so angry. Meaning if we could have talked about our shortcomings, rather my shortcomings, I could have understood, or be more receptive.

But the thought of what she is doing right now keeps coming back to me and I appreciate everyone's support.


eovery profile image

eovery 7 years ago from MIddle of the Boondocks of Iowa

No, GT, stay on the line. You can handle. The liquor will only make it worse. Common. Lets talk bud.

What's the name of you kids?


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I'm just keep shaking man.

I keep saying stupid, stupid, stupid.


eovery profile image

eovery 7 years ago from MIddle of the Boondocks of Iowa

No, GT, stay on the line.  You can handle. 

Just think of you kids man. Think of them, you can make it through this for them man. Put down the bottle man.

Talk to me!


Leta S 7 years ago

You CAN handle this, GT. If Teresa and I could get through it, then so can you. Just calm down.


Mighty Mom profile image

Mighty Mom 7 years ago from Where Left is Right, CA

GT, if you must go out and drink, please take a friend with you so you know you can get home safely and don't get into a fight or something stupid. PLEASE!


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

The babysitter is going to be here in a half hour or so, I think I would rather be alone when I go out. I don't want to bother my friends with my mood. Everyone is supposed to be having a good time tonight.


Leta S 7 years ago

Maybe you should stay here with us, then, GT... Seriously. What? You're going to drive??


eovery profile image

eovery 7 years ago from MIddle of the Boondocks of Iowa

Good, get out. but stay away from the wife tonight, especially if you drink any, promise!

I got to go. Just stay loose tonight. You know what's best!


Teresa McGurk profile image

Teresa McGurk 7 years ago from The Other Bangor

Not a good idea to go out.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I have to do something!! I am shaking, I want to punch the walls. I want to find out where she's at. I want to ask her why? why? Why?


Leta S 7 years ago

Can you try doing some yoga? Or what MM says--just write it all out. Just find a way to calm yourself.


Mighty Mom profile image

Mighty Mom 7 years ago from Where Left is Right, CA

Yes, yes, of course you do. And you deserve an answer. But tracking her down in a frenzy and demanding an answer in the state you're in -- won't get you anywhere and will only give her the upper hand. Trust me, dude. I know this.

Shaking and wanting to punch the walls. Ok. That's testosterone at work. Do you by any chance belong to a 24 hour gym? If you are heading to a bar (walking or cab, please!), can you go somewhere and play darts or pool -- anything that involves physical activity, not just warming a bar stool talking to strangers.

You know we'll be here (at least some core group of us) will be here when you get back. Please be safe. Save the confrontation with wifey till you're in a calmer space. Promise? Please?


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

GT, you can't control your wife, you can only control yourself, that's the difference you can make for you and for your kids. What you do matters.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I read CC Riter's new hub, and it made me feel a little bit better and maybe the words are sinking in that I have a family, and I look at these kids watching wow wow wubzzy and it makes me second guess what I want to do. I think I will keep the babysitter here and go buy something to drink and try to relax with the kids and let the babysitter take care of them if I can't handle it. But if the wife comes around I am definitely calling the police.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Thanks Brie for being so supportive. I'm sorry about bothering you with all this.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

It's no bother at all, we all just are trying to help from across cyber space so to speak.


Writer Rider 7 years ago

Personally, I think if women feel good about themselves inside and out it won't matter to them what a man or their partner thinks. That's the most important thing, in my opinion, you can't live for anyone's approval.


The Old Firm profile image

The Old Firm 7 years ago from Waikato/Bay Of Plenty, New Zealand

I've just come to your hub Brie, and admire the sincerity of your comments.

I believe "goldentoad" is a prime example of the damage that pornography can do to a marriage. He brought filth to what was apparently a well structured family, and now he is reaping the disaster that it causes. He is obviously a weak willed, cowardly pervert who will spill his guts to anyone who listens in an effort to elicit sympathy. If his wife HAS gone over to a woman for company, it's because of her disgust of men in general, based on her limited experience of us as a species, thanks to his failures.

I know of many "men" who bury themselves in work because they're afraid to go to the marital bed. Most drink and gamble as well, as "goldentoad" has admitted to, and like him bully their partner.(He blocked one of her video channels) Fortunately I've been able to assist their wives in realising that we're not all inadequate.

To you women who've offered him sympathy I admire your charity, but don't be sucked into releasing your email details, he's most likely a web stalker as well.

Good luck


Writer Rider 7 years ago

You hit on nail Firm! It's also my opinion that a guy who complains about his marriage and wife is suspect. Of course, I don't know GT's situation.


The Old Firm profile image

The Old Firm 7 years ago from Waikato/Bay Of Plenty, New Zealand

We all complain about our marriages and our spouses at some time Writer Rider, to our friends, or the bloke behind the bar. Hopefully we don't snivel and whinge to all and sundry over the net. Mind you, it could attract Viagra spam. That may solve goldentoad's problem - or some of it. He'll still be a whining, self centered little jerk.


Anna Marie Bowman profile image

Anna Marie Bowman 7 years ago from Florida

GT obviously does not need to be smacked around (with your words). He obviously needs some help. Too many men get too absorbed in being the provider. A friend is married to a man who feels that his only job as husband and father is to go to work, and bring home a paycheck. He wonders why she is no longer excited by him. He takes his anger out on her.


The Old Firm profile image

The Old Firm 7 years ago from Waikato/Bay Of Plenty, New Zealand

You may be right Anna, I saw it differently, but my acerbity is probably only ego tripping.


LondonGirl profile image

LondonGirl 7 years ago from London

Comments are not for promoting your hubs or other sites


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Thanks LondonGirl, this person has been harassing me for awhile now.


Sufidreamer profile image

Sufidreamer 7 years ago from Sparti, Greece

I am still not quite sure what you are trying to say here. How is pornography bad for me? How do you define pornography? Your hub is not quite clear upon the matter, and appears to skirt around the issue. Are you talking about hardcore or fashion magazines, which are far more devastating to the self-esteem of the 'normal' woman, if such a thing exists.

You use the argument that men have an idealised view of women, fuelling feelings of inadequacy in women. In my experience, most cases of judgment by physical attributes comes from other women. Women judge women far more harshly than men do.

I cannot think of a single one of my friends and acquaintances who has your 'idealised' view of the perfect woman. We accept all of the lumps and bumps of our partners, because we love them for their mind - we are not exactly the 'perfect' specimens of manhood, either. We are certainly not 'dissatisfied' with normal women. To make a blanket assumption that pornography turns all men bad is a little insulting - we are all individuals.

Your other argument invokes the Danes - they are indeed a very happy and fulfilled people, but have the most liberal pornography laws in the world, so your argument is a little weak.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

GT, How are you doing?


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I'm okay today, it really helped that the babysitter came over, gave me some time to mellow out a bit. The wife is staying at a friends and or whatever. I left this afternoon while she came and got some stuff. the babysitter is going to help out around here while I go to work, it seems that her living arrangements aren't so great, so I told her she could stay her until something gets resolved. I wasn't going to comment here anymore, because TOF really went after me(but he is partially right and I need to hear it) and that's why I don't tell any of my friends what is happening. Its really very embarrassing.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Well, I'm glad you are ok and I fully understand and wish you well.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

I think as all of it sinks in, I will feel better. It really did help to get it all out here and even with TOF saying the things he said, it made me kind of get a hold of myself. I welcome the advice and even though things are hurtful, they need to be said, we have to take everything in and digest it, even if we don't like it. In the end I will be better for it.


Cris A profile image

Cris A 7 years ago from Manila, Philippines

I'm so glad to hear that GT. I prayed for you over that last couple of hours as it seemed it was the right thing to do - and the only thing I can do to help you. I hope you completely come through this a better man.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Thanks Cris, I know I can count on your support through these times.


Leta S 7 years ago

Oh, no, GT! Are you posting here again? Are you going to see an end to what you are going through?


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Lita: I asked him how he was doing.


goldentoad profile image

goldentoad 7 years ago from Free and running....

Sorry, Lita, I was trying not to burden anyone today, I know it was alot to take yesterday, but I thank Brie for lending me an ear.


Leta S 7 years ago

Well, I for one feel sorry for him, but I did suggest a couple things-- An intervention 'just using' gay porn, and yoga to calm him down, so I don't have much else to say tonight. I do wish you well, GT.


Lifebydesign profile image

Lifebydesign 7 years ago from Australia

Hey GT I wasn't so sure myself but I'm convinced you're genuine, and I'm confident you'll resolve it and get comfortably (and sometimes uncomfortably) to the other side.


blondepoet profile image

blondepoet 7 years ago from australia

I totally agree with you on this from past experiences with guys who have been addicted to porn,ruined our relationship.One guy could not function unless I dressed like the images he had grown up with in porn magazines.THe other treated me with no respect,behind closed doors,never once was it a love making experience,just degrading in every sense.There was much more too it,but too much to mention here.Some men especially those who have grown up with porn,and have become totally addicted to it just dont be able to get a reality on what sex really is meant to be.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Thanks for the comment blondepoet.


Ex Adult Actor 7 years ago

Brie, I spent an indecent portion of my life in sexual show biz. And not all men react to visual titillation in quite the same way. Some go through stages and others grow up and settle down. After a modest career that would still make Casanova blush, my taste in women remains partial to bright and earthy Jewish girls. Perfection takes many forms. And I always fell for souls rather than shells.

It is a matter of genetic libido, not media conditioning that compels male sex drives. There is no moral compass on primitive instinct by nature. Read Freud. Minus passion or love we are all but flowers without sunlight or water. It is the rare plant that can survive on the same elements throughout its lifespan. Not all can be happy eating the same food for life or loving only one person for all time.

I am set in my my maturity by monogamy, but don't condemn adult media that celebrates ecstasy or lovers who play the field. If someone can love more than one person and make multiple people happy, more power to them. A good lover can experience intimacy with any woman without idealizing perfection. Pics of acts that create life are a form of artistic beauty, and not a "p" word for censorship.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I think "love" and sex are two different things many times. And, I don't think you can compare devotion to one man or one woman with eating steak for a lifetime!


Ex Adult Actor 7 years ago

A lifetime of red meat is linked to cancer while a lifetime of lustful indulgence is linked to longevity. The usual suspects who condemn adult sexual freedom are often feminists or lesbians. I never understood how an attractive bright woman could be against erotic expression. If viewing of visuals that can result in creation of life are deemed immoral, is hate of public sexuality not a blight on life itself?

Those who complicate love and sex usually have conflicts or hangups about one or the other. And repression is actually more unhealthy than addiction. Love is to sex what air is to breathing. And love's idealism requires concrete manifestation. Without passion, love is but a romantisized idea. Physical touch not ideas hug or hold us at night. If X pics are so bad for us, is not love itself also to be feared?

The very word pornography is meant to depict pictures of people having sex as whores. If a food channel on cable TV shows people eating would that then make them pigs? Anti-sex value judgments as such have more to do with influence of religion than logic, reason or common sense. And more people in this world have done wrong out of tribal faith than via the gifts and blessings of alpha sexuality.

Those who condemn fans who look at adult pics may not have tolerant social skills or an unguilt-ridden sex drive to settle down and perpetuate the species themselves. This is why caucasians across the globe are being outpopulated and the western world is in crisis. Our life force is celebrated though sexual art. And if we're to be ashamed of lust, we might as well all become monks and be extinct.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I think you should take a look at the fruit of pornography as depicted in some of the previously posted comments. But, I doubt you will consider them as you seem to have your mind made up.


Ex Adult Actor 7 years ago

I'l admit sex media has its negative repercussions. But it's mainly among certain dying human species neurotically barren or obsessed over erotica who have less replacement offspring because of it. Still, the predisposition for hypersexuality lies in the libido of the voyeur and not the dirty pic or movie he's looking at.

If the catharsis of porn did not exist, society's sexual havenots would find other worse outlets and cave man days would make an unwelcome comeback. But when pretty women take a stance against sexuality is it like a sports car afraid of speed. For sake of procreation, lust = life, not debate for repressed bluenoses.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Oh yeah, like sexual crimes are down now because of porn, the statistics don't show this. If anything pornography contributes to sexual crimes. Look up the Ted Bundy interview with Dr. James Dobson you might just learn something.


Ex Adult Actor 7 years ago

This is fun. I like to debate intolerance. You should charge admission for this site. Adult cinema was pioneered by certain ethnic and religious groups forced into marginalized professions due to mainstream discrimination. Reason why porn's equated with violence is that a sick society judges open sexuality as evil.

It's a chicken and egg issue really. What came first, sexual repression or social misfits negatively conditioned who went bad because of it? Do sexual criminals go off the deep end because sex is bad or because it's drummed into their head that it is and they cannot experience lustful thoughts without the connection?

My wife's friend who is a poorly aging sex negative has an addiction to food. In fact, she losing her health because of it. If she were a sex addict she'd be a lot healthier. But since her vice is food, should we ban all pics of food because she's ill? When or where Brie does the issue of her personal irresponsibility come in?

The irony that amuses me most is that prudes who fear human sexuality are the same ones who put job or career above love and family, are barren or not having enough kids. You can't preach utopian morality to sexual instinct. Boys will be boys. Males are visual. Some get hooked, others get over it. So too should you.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Ummm, I don't believe I ever said it should be banned. You're personal attacks are getting weary and I think it's because you have no real argument so you must attack people who disagree with you. I am not a prude and I do not fear sexuality, moreover I think that it is pointless to discuss this with you further because you are too immersed in the sound of your own argument and cannot or will not see beyond it. I think you are the close-minded one.


Ex Adult Actor 7 years ago

Men and women have different libidos by instinct or nature, not preconceptions of immorality. Closed-minded attitudes towards that which we may neither accept nor understand reveal an inflexible outlook on life, love and sex. Porn is a vice like any other in that it is ill defined by those who abuse it or have hangups. On average, those who hate porn often don't even like sex. I cannot bring myself to argue about sex with a sexy woman any further. It's like kibbitzing with the ice cream man over flavors. And so you win the anti-porn debate, Brie. Au revoir...


ajcor profile image

ajcor 7 years ago from NSW. Australia

poor GT - are you managing with the children, how are you coping with your new way of life , have you decided to  forgive your wife and better yet is she coming home to you? 

Must be so hard trying to find your way through all of this miasma of grief! we are all with you....go well


roguetek 7 years ago

I think most all of you are missing the point. Men or women watch porn because they feel like they are missing the affection they need from their partner and the only way to fill that void is to see someone else having their needs met and living out their needs through them. We have become a world of disconnected individuals. If ones partner has resolved to watching porn it is soley because they are not getting what they need from their spouse or partner. it seems from what I have read on here most of you are to blind to get that.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I disagree with you.


majicat profile image

majicat 7 years ago

It has been very interesting reading on this hub. I read the article by Naomi Wolfe a few years ago, I actually printed that one and put it in my files. the fact that the cost of opening the flood gates of porn did not have the effect of reducing men to sex craved lunatics but rather, what in my mind is a much more costly effect; the loss of intimacy and the ability to communicate. Lets face it, criminals can be locked up, but how do we redeem the foundation of relationship? the picture Naomi painted with her words of the intensely intimate and private love between the Islamic couple; because no one saw her hair other than her husband. that intimacy, the glue that binds them together.

The title here, "Why Pornography is bad for men" would be better shortened, leaving "Men" off to make it all inclusive. The depiction of the most intimate acts destroying the very ability to be or become intimate, is a horrible cost for everyone, even the children. with the intimacy gone, relationships fail and children are left motherless or fatherless.

fascinating to read the progression of comments here on the topic that degraded to talk of hidden cameras and avoidance by diving into the bottle of some other vice. the polar opposite of real love an intimacy, real time evidence of the the cost played out before us.

I found the former porn stars comments refreshing. jarring to my thinking. "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" Is the problem pornography or something much deeper? Pornography is the objectifying of men and women. Do you watch porn because you objectify men and/or women or does the porn cause it? Are the depictions the cause of the flaw or the flaw the cause of the depictions?

It would seem to me that the relationship would have to have that flaw begin with. the difference being; "look at my girlfriend, isn't she beautiful?" or "look at me with this beautiful woman" " My man is so hot", "Look at me with this hot man" the first, a relationship with the other person, the latter with an object.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Great comments Majicat


majicat profile image

majicat 7 years ago

Thank you.

listening to the early morning rain, my thoughts drifted back to this. the ex porn star had some interesting things to say. first of all; "A lifetime of red meat is linked to cancer while a lifetime of lustful indulgence is linked to longevity." Lustful indulgence is linked to longevity? the first definition of lust that I found was this: "Lust (or lechery) is an inordinate craving for coitus often to the point of assuming a self-indulgent, and sometimes violent character." Certainly there are more and other definitions but I think that everyone would agree on the "self indulgent" part. A life time of self indulgence is not linked to long life, that is idiocy. if you narrowed it down to a life time of coitus with a variety of partners the idea is still a house of cards. While on the other hand, a life time of coitus with a "mate" would be very healthy for you. a life time of self indulgence would most certainly put you in an early grave, Narcissus slipped into depression and died gazing at his own reflection in the stagnant pool. images, reflections, narcissistic self love, it all fits into pornography like a hand in a glove

further, the Porn Star states;

"The very word pornography is meant to depict pictures of people having sex as whores. If a food channel on cable TV shows people eating would that then make them pigs? "

if a person sat round looking at films and photographs of food for hours on end wouldn't it make sense that they would become gluttonous? to say that the media does not affect human behavior is lunacy. what is the cost now, per second, for advertising during the Super Bowl? millions of dollars are spent because it works! companies sell more pimple cream. subliminal advertising was outlawed, things like theaters putting one frame in a film, just a flash of some guy stuffing his face with popcorn, sold more popcorn. doing that shit isn't fair, it was outlawed, Obscene images are not? We are talking about pornography here:

Pornography: obscene writings, drawings, photographs, or the like, esp. those having little or no artistic merit.

Nudity is not obscene, violence and depravity is. personally I think that seeing someone's head being blown apart on prime time television is much more obscene than a gynecological close up shot of people fucking. But graphic violence and gore, bodies being hacked to bits are the norm in all the media, there is no restraint to that. isn't it any wonder that our world is ruled by violence? children gunning down their classmates in schools has become commonplace. younger and ever younger children having children, unwed child mothers are at epidemic proportions, there is no link to porn? there is no link to self indulgence? a person sitting around for hours on end viewing the violent degradation of men and women has no effect? Come on!

The porn star stated that he loved debating intolerance. addressing the ramifications of pornography is not intolerance any more that talking about the ramifications of substance abuse is. it is the obscene, violent degradation of humanity that we are speaking of, is it not?


womanizer 7 years ago

it seems as ,all the persons who commented, forgot one fact ,i did not say it first,but iwill paraphrase for the viewers(art and pornography lie in the eye of the beholder) ms.brie has a tendency to be somewhat self-righteous ,when adult actor checkmated her ,she quickly threw in the towel! he has at least read parts of sigmund freud,if not all! i also agree with lisa and teresa,since women have become equals (ERA) they want to experience what their mothers advised them not to do because or their puritanical up-bring it is not uncommon in today's society,for girls/women to have bi-sexuol relationshipsif most men can deal with it but ones who cant ,are usually insecure! mr.majicat sum up my exact sentiments hollywood and television exploit violence,and prime time t.v. have taught us that if if children or adults are exposed to a womans breast. they will be scarred for life! on any given night under -age children are fed a steady diet of violence and sexual innuendos! and parents dont understand why ther children carry guns to school and kill their classmates and their daughters become pregant, parents depend upon the government to gude their children,and they are both faling miserbably!


majicat profile image

majicat 7 years ago

the womanizer is right, depending on the government to legislate morality is an exercise in futility. #1 because you cannot exercise morality and #2 because it is not the job of the government to teach, but rather to enforce. it is the parents job to teach. adults have to come to their own conclusions, intelligent people will make those decisions based on all the facts.

however, most people will throw a fit if you put the wrong brand of oil in their cars, but will eat any damned thing simply because it tastes good. this holds true for things like this as well, people don't care about the effects of their behavior on themselves or on society at large, selfish indulgence is the rule of the day.

you have to be the change you want to see in the world. real change must begin with you


hamtaro 7 years ago

First of all not all porn is air brushed and fake. What if you are into amateur porn?

Also...many women are into porn also. I take it they must be some sort of self loathing monster.

ANYTHING in excess is bad. Also, to say that the key to happiness is to expect nothing from yourself or life, is pretty fatalistic.You should have goals you aim for, otherwise what's the point.


Mark 7 years ago

I have to mention something you didn't mention Brie, which was the amout of women also addicted to porn as there are alot of them out there but women are very good at hiding that fact about them and pornography.

I used to use a chat program called Paltalk where people from around the world can chat and use here webcams to see each other. I had a program called splitcam that allows you to show videos instead of your webcam image. I used to show alot of porn on my video in the Adult rooms. Many women would be in the chat room and then announce they are going to bed or leaving but in secret they would instant message me asking me about the porn movies I was showing. This happened a great many times and I have made some good friendships with these women.

To me, porn is only a problem if the person LETS IT BECOME A PROBLEM. WE are all adults here and should know how to distinguish reality from porn. Personally I like women of all shapes and sizes, as far as race that is a different topic lol...


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Well, to each his or her own but I stand by my post.


jimbo 7 years ago

Porn is not bad for men at all. It might bad for women who can't compete. Do women ever look in the mirror and take responsibility for their own shortcomings? Aren't we all tired of another excuse for women's insufficiencies?

There is no amount of porn that can take a man away from an attractive, intelligent, emotionally mature woman. You can pnly talk about Britney Spears and "The Bachelor" for so long.

Unfortunately, extremely few women want to work on themselves to become that developed person...so they blame porn and invent entire fraudulent "issues" like "the commitment phobe"...as if they are offering men something of value to commit to in the first place.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

Boy, if you don't sound like a misogynist!


gdsfgdsfgsfdg 7 years ago

First of all, u guys are all older that's why some of u dont agree with this. im 16 years old, and just randomly came across this i can tell u that i saw porn at a really realy young age when i first used the computer and i was drawn to it honestly. eventually probably when i was 13 i was completely obsessed with it and even now i have to try to avoid it. everytime i got bored with it id see something even more hardcore and worse that would make me tempted t watch it more and its a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE thing.. ppl my age are out of their minds. girls loose their virginity in middle school and brag about it, the age just gets younger... guys treat girls terribly and its the trend to constantly talk about porn and boobs and degrade us. yet its compltely obvious that those guys are soo insecure about themselves. no ones ever in a real relationship... and wtf, now all of sudden ppl are bragging about having anal sex n stuff.. its DISGUSTING and it only gets worse!! i promise you, whatever u feel about it its a growing problem and it is destroying ppl... intimacy is ruined, ppl are just all about stupid fantasies and they all think sex = porno... and all the sad sick things that go through my mind obviously are on their minds to and they dont even know its a problem.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I cannot even begin to spell your name but I just want to thank you for writing. I am well aware of what is going on with kids your age and it is a terrible shame. I worry about your generation because you may never experience true intimacy. Thanks again for writing g...............


jaime 7 years ago

i love this. an opinion piece on the woes of porn....at the bottom a link for a two year study that states that porn is not bad for men.........ha!!

by the way, i watch porn...my girl watches porn. i love her, she loves me. that's all that matters. people have too many hang ups about things. get over it. you don't wanna watch it, don't watch it!


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 7 years ago from Manhattan Author

I have no control over the advertising.


raven gill 6 years ago

I think watching porn in moderation is not wrong if you take it as just entertainment.but, if you has addiction of watching porn in excess and that hardcore then it will really shatter your health mind and soul and can bring disaster in your marrige life if your partner has average body shape or desire.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Thanks Raven Gill, the only problem is that you never know how if you will become addicted or not until after you delve into it.


no body profile image

no body 6 years ago from Rochester, New York

This is a facinating hub Brie with very real consequences to very real people. All people are sinners with lusts that seek to control them. I have an addiction to porn. It will control my life if I even peek at it because I will want more like the guy who takes a sip being an alcoholic.

My own testimony is that I did have very bad self esteem problem as a kid. My mom would tell me that a woman would be a fool to marry me. Or no one would ever love me. I got my first piece of written porn at an aunt's house. My aunt decided that after almost twenty years married to my uncle that she was lesbian. She had lots of novels that opened up a world that seemed everybody was at least pleasured, if not happy. I escaped there with my stash for the last years living at my parents house at 18. But then the lonliness set in. Every friend I had was doing somebody or engaged or in some way professing to be in love, even for a one night stand. I would go to the strip club to see real women but would feel more alone and dirty somehow. I would hear mom's voice and realize this was the only thing I would ever have. Well, you know none of this is healthy or normal (even if some of this is common). When my first girlfriend told me she loved me, I was estatic. Then after we had sex, she went off to marry the real man of her dreams that told her he would not marry a virgin. I began to separate love and sex while at the same time knowing that you are to have them interconnected in marriage (An institution I believed in but felt that I would not have) Later I met my first wife who was despirate to find a way out of her home with her parents. She told me she loved me and wanted to marry me. Now I remembered what happened the last time with my virgin girlfriend but I decided that if she married me I would be faithful. We were married and stayed married twenty years. She could not conceive and so after the adoption of our two children she began to pull away from me and talk of divorce. She gradually began to refuse all intimacy and the last 10 years of our marriage was non-sexual. Now the conditions were ripe for my controled addiction to raise it's ugly head again. I began to view all sorts of porn, to masturbate all the time, fantasizing that all those women really loved me. I knew they didn't but would "forget" that until my lust was eased. I have struggled with porn for years. When I got saved a whole new problem with porn opened up. I learned Biblical truths. Sex was for marriage. Sin begins in the mind. My participating in other's sex on screen was the same as me doing it myself as far as God is concerned. I was a fornicator, an adulterer, a gay man, a lesbian. I did it all. Now I knew why I felt dirty before I knew Jesus. It was a conscience. When I met my current wife of 11 yrs she had been raised with porn. She was struggling with the same problem. When she got saved a few years before the porn her mother had stashed and obscene photos hanging on the walls of her mom's home, took on a whole new meaning. We have been a strength to one another. As far as how porn affected me, it was simple: I would think that it was possible. Then I would fail to make myself perform like that. Nor was I able to elicit that out of my wife - either one of them. I failed to see that the attitudes of the actors were becoming my attitudes. I was looking at women as "types" and what they were willing to do and not on them as part of one flesh with me. Add to this the spiritual truths of the sin involved and I was in trouble. We threw away our porn and anything else that took away from us and our spiritual growth. Our marriage has gotten stronger and more passionate and both our "O;s" better. Hers have multiplied. I may have learned something from a video or two over the years but that is small compared to the damage it caused and will still cause if I were to start again. Thank you Brie, but this is an issue I know alot about, didn't mean to write so long.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Thanks for your very candid comments no body, they are greatly appreciated.


no body profile image

no body 6 years ago from Rochester, New York

Gee, the comments WERE candid, weren't they? Man, my face is all red now. I was just on a roll and I hope that the comments helped someone. Love ya Brie.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Good thing this is anonymous!


The R Dude 6 years ago

I'm sorry, but Porn isn't the terrible demon keeping girls awake at night, insecure about their bodies. It is also not just porn that would be making them insecure. Look at magazines, watch some television, a movie, almost any piece of media! If there is a woman, its a beautiful voluptuous woman in a sexy pose. I personally have been watching porn since about 12. Its not an addiction, its not made me treat women bad, porn doesn't control me at all. If anything, porn kept me from going nuts in high school and try to get laid with some of the rather slutty girls there! Right now I'm living with an intelligent awesome woman that I find absolutely beautiful. I still consume porn occasionally, just for fun.

As for your position, I can see where it can be damaging... but it also has other factors to it. You can't blame violent video games for school shootings, you can't blame drunk driving for all motor vehicle accidents. There is no blanket law. Have you also thought most kids do pot? How many get addicted?

As for sex in middle school, I find it repulsive and crappy but I'd say its more on the heads of the parents then anything else.

Someone should do a study of kids in middle school, virginity and parental involvement in the kids lives and the relationship between the parents. Wonder what you'd find.

Abusive husband, kid treats girls like dirt and has sex with them.

So in conclusion I suggest you keep your position, but also everyone, keep an open mind. Remember there's no blanket that covers all.


Vance Longwell 6 years ago

You've outlined a pretty good case supporting how much you are threatened by heterosexual-male pornography. But I see little else of substance. Plus too, you completely ignore the fact that roughly half the male-oriented pornography is marketed to homosexual males. How is it then, that a homosexual-male consuming homosexual-pornography can have his intimate-relationships with women negatively impacted by this porn? Or do homosexual males not count as human beings?

You clearly lack empathy regarding male-sexuality. Males are biologically compelled to ejaculate semen on a roughly 72 hour cycle. This, presumably, to maintain integrity of sperm. This compulsion is stronger than anything you, as a woman, might possibly imagine. Pornography is, first and foremost, a part of this cycle. The ramifications for women are completely secondary, and quite irrelevant.

Personally, quality pornography has completely supplanted my need for any type of intimate-relationship with any woman. I couldn't care less. This fact has been the single-most liberating experience of my male-life. I simply have no need of a woman anymore. As such, I'm free of the almost relentless abuse I've suffered at their hands since being sexually mutilated at birth by one.

Oh, and for the record, I'm straight as an arrow.


DA858550 6 years ago

Hello. I think your article is very accurate. Another point is men shouldn't watch things like porn because it is not real- real life isn't like that, it does not have directors except G-d. That's why it is sinful to try to create a form of sex without G-ds reason which is babies, and just lust. I respect a guy who is honest and real, but now with the internet it is hard to find. Please check out my article on this subject in my blog page. I would like to know what you think.

Have a good day.


betty 6 years ago

Brie Hoffman,

I think you are absolutely right about the moral transgressions porn has on our society. Enjoying Sex is not the problem; even without porn, men and women will enjoy sex, one more so than another. But porn is so easily accesible via internet and sex shops, prostitution and magazines, in that it creates an opportunity for addiction and deviant behavior, i.e. visiting a prostitute, maybe committing an adultry (one night stands etc..)

I myself have seen porn (alone) and for a day or so, I am extremely turned on and hot. But if I don't see it again, the sensation goes away. But most men, love the feeling of this sensation from viewing porn and these images of vile sex orgies play back in their head repeatedly, maybe while driving or at a bar and in these circumstances, men have the opportunity to have sex or chase a woman...even if it doesn't lead to sex, the thrill quenches a desire..and so forth. And them multiply these images, and desire by years, let say 10 or 15 yrs, you will have an individual that reveres sex.. as freaky and nasty as it could be. Its not rocket science... people!

Think about it.. the more exposure you have to a content, the more comfortable you are with it..

similar to studying math.. the better you are.. the more like you will be to solve mathmatical formulas at any given time. So with freaky sex images in a whorny man's head...what the hell do you think he is going to do with it? Eventually sex with his wife is not enough because he has transcended their mutual desire for sex and he is way beyond his wife's reach to satisfy his groinal desire.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

To Everyone who has commented in the last 2 months: For some reason my email notification was off so I wasn't notified when you wrote your comments. Thanks for commenting and I'm sorry I wasn't able to respond in a timely manner.


MATLOCK 6 years ago

I disagree that porn objectifies women "unwillingly". These "ladies" dang well know what they are doing, and what they are doing it for.... MONEY. These women willingly do what they do for CASH as the motivation, and little else.

I am NOT saying the MEN are innocent here, but without the "charms" of women, 90% porn would be non existent.


poppy 6 years ago

This is religious and conservative propaganda!!! its 100% bull shit! its not the porn that's bad, i look at porn from time to time and me and my wife have a great intimate relationship. the only place any of this information can find some truth is in the porn addict. i look at porn when my women isn't in the mood to fool around. its a fact that men and women are hard wired differently, men by nature want to spread their seed to as many different women as possible and as often as possible while women try to find the best men to produce just their offspring and no one else s to further their genes with the leader of the pack "so to speak". in closing let me steal a line from the blood hound gang, "you and me baby aint nothing but mammals so lets do it like they do on the discovery channel"


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

That is where you are wrong we are much more than animals, but then I speak for myself, maybe you aren't.


poppy 6 years ago

oh no ma'am you are most certainly and animal just like the rest of us. we are a class of vertebrate, air-breathing animals whose females are characterized by the possession of mammary glands while both males and females are characterized by sweat glands, hair or fur, three middle ear bones used in hearing, and a neocortex region in the brain, and we are fondly referred to as mammals.

further more we have have natural instincts and the instincts of men and women are very very different. especially when it comes to mating. marriage is a failed social experiment! men crave more then one women whether they act upon it or not, whether they admit it or not, we are hard wired that way. to do anything to fight are human nature our human condition only produces depressed, hateful, angry people.

religion has done nothing for man expect inspire fear, war, and intolerance. I know i wont see it in my lifetime but maybe my kids or grand kids will see a time when we throw the oppressive chains of religion off our already burdened shoulders and look to the stars for real answers and the next step to our evolution.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

You are very deluded Poppy. You won't have to wait until your grand kids come of age, there is no religion in hell, which is where you are going.


poppy 6 years ago

4they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.

5"Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"

6They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.

7But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.

10Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"

11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either Go From now on sin no more."

i probably know the bible better then you do, your part are the religious problem not its solution, religion could be a great thing but its people like you who have ruined it. people like you sit on your high horse and think your superior to everyone. well your not, your made of the same thing the rest of us are along with the all the other animals of this earth. your not special, your common, get use to it and get over it.


edguider profile image

edguider 6 years ago

Brie,

Good hub. Men need to realize that watching pornography and becoming addicted is a big risk if they are in a relationship. As you said, men become aroused with only pornography and when it comes time for the real thing they are helpless. Erectile Dysfunction can occur with a real partner, but when watching porn erections work fine, that's because this is how you trained your brain to handle sex..


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Thanks for writing edguider, I need all the help I can get on this one!


Jeff Schein 6 years ago

I think porn is ok.


Nicole Winter profile image

Nicole Winter 6 years ago from Chicago, IL

Brie Hoffman: I have to respectfully disagree with you. This is an interesting, thought-provoking hub, and it has certainly gendered a great deal of comments, which are also well thought out and interesting. To me, what it boils down to is whether or not anyone, (I know a lot of women who view porn, too, I found the "male" bent on this somewhat disturbing, sorry,) can control themselves and their vices. A weekend at the strip club, or a movie with the husband / boyfriend is fun, being unable to get off without outside stimuli, not so much. Addiction is addiction, regardless of what you're addicted to, even if it's something that would otherwise be considered healthy, (like exercise, for example,) if it's taking over your life, there is a problem. I'm not going to lie and say I haven't had my issues with pornography, some of those women are *so* perfect looking, being on the heavier side myself, I can find that threatening and for many women pornography hits at the heart of something that is truly their domain, turning on their boyfriend / husband and providing sexual relief for him. It can be very diminishing to have that taken away, even for an orgasm. As for women being subjugated and forced into doing what they're doing on screen... well, I just don't buy it. I think the percentage of porn being watched where true force is involved is so minuscule as to be almost non-existent. While I would agree that just one person being forced into performing sexual acts on screen is too many, there is honestly nothing one can do about it other than to turn to the next porn clip and shake our heads at the sadness of this world. To paraphrase an old quote... "You can take my porn tapes out of my cold, dead hand." Just wash your hands after.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Well, I will respectfully disagree. Furthermore, I think a lot of porn is coerced if not forced and there is something you can do, you can not give them your money.


Nicole Winter profile image

Nicole Winter 6 years ago from Chicago, IL

Brie, obviously, I don't want to get into a "flame war" with you, I respect you as a fellow hubber, writer and woman. You're a good person, and I enjoy reading your work. I've payed for porn only a couple times when it was a gift for someone else. (Yeah, I've given pornography as a gift before. Some might call that being an AWESOME friend;) Many adult female porn stars, and adult female sex workers, some of whom I've known personally are not coerced in any way... Look at the television... do those girls in the "Girls Gone Wild" videos look like they're being forced?!? No, they're making decent bucks showing off their ta-ta's for the hopes, dreams and aspirations of possibly becoming the next Jada Fire... these women make huge... insane amounts of money. As for me personally giving them my money, I've never paid for porn for myself, there's just too much of it for free on the internet. I've also had / have friends who work as or worked as strippers... they (all of them that I've known,) LOVED their jobs, some of them even totally got off on it. I don't pay for porn, most of the men here who've commented pro-porn probably don't, either. I think the idea that women are being coerced into acting in porn films that pay them tons of money and are totally safe, (condom usage,) is naïve. No one would manage to keep their studio in business if even an inkling of misconduct or coercion was linked out to the press.


drig23 6 years ago

I don't buy it. I watch Iron Chef America, but that doesn't make my wife feel like her cooking is inferior. My wife watches home improvement shows, but I'm not afraid that I won't stack up to Ty Pennington when fixing the toilet. My wife watches Spartacus, but that doesn't make me feel like less of a man even if I'm not as badass as the guys on that show.

I understand that some women (particularly young women) have self esteem problems. I understand that, for some, this may be exacerbated by a beau that watches pornography. But, I would contend that women's magazines and celebrity shows do a lot more damage.

As for your contention that watching porn makes men disassociate intimacy with love. I think you have that backwards. Men's inherent disassociation between intimacy and love leads them to enjoy watching porn, not the other way around. Trust me, I was objectifying women long before I got the nerve up to steal my first copy of Penthouse magazine.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

I agree with you regarding women's magazines and celebrity shows but I disagree with the rest. I think it affects us, even more so, when you think you are immune.


edguider profile image

edguider 6 years ago

Brie,

This is a great hub and I am glad that I read it. Porn is also a major factor in Erectile Dysfunction. Men who are addicted to porn can only get erections when masturbating to it! When it comes time to sleep with their wife, girlfriend, partner etc they cannot get an erection. We get e-mails all the time from men who ask why they cannot get erections with their partners, 60% of the time they are addicted to porn.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Yes, I know..I know someone like this. I think the problem is far more widespread than people are aware. They should start doing commercials about it but they wont because the Porn industry makes big bucks!

Thanks for commenting...I need to do one about women next.


Shane  6 years ago

I completely agree. My Girlfriend watches porn constantly. Now she wants to have multiple partners like the porn movies. Am I not enough for her ? Why does she insist on playing pron ?


truth602 6 years ago

the danes have long entrenched themselves with por. just look up "danish pornography" they led the way. that is why they're happy


randy 6 years ago

All porn does not use airbrushed only women. A porn site located in my area of central california uses local girls only. I even saw a checker at albertsons grocery store who I always thought was hot right in front of me naked on cuntrybabes.com. Their not what your used to from playboy but it's more like the girls I talk to everyday.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

It doesn't matter it still trains you to be dissatisfied because it concentrates on the sex instead of the intimacy.


mike 6 years ago

Here's a newsflash. Men don't need porn to disassociate love and sex. We can do that all on our own without porn. This is like people who cry about rap music being violent and how it makes people in the hood more violent. If there was no more rap music, the hood would still be violent. If there was no more porno, men would still be playing out women to get them into bed and wouldn't be looking for a relationship as much as they are looking for sex.

The fool who wrote this article seems to think that men somehow are the same as women and we view sex and relationships the same. This is preposterous and shortsighted.

Even if there were no porno anywhere in the world, if you gave men the opportunity to have no strings attached sex with hot big breasted sexpots without consequences, 99.9% of heterosexual men would do it. We don't need relationships or intimacy to be sexually driven.

On a side note, the notions of "coercion" and the porn industry just show a flat out lack of understanding of the industry, and that's nothing more than a red herring thrown out there to catch people's attention and try to demonize the porn industry. The porn industry pays well, and there are tons of people trying to get into the industry, they don't have to troll and coerce people to perform in films, there's a long list of very willing participants of both sexes.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

I didn't say that they needed it just that it fans the flames sort of speak.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 6 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA

I find the phrase "demonize the pron industry" to be highly amusing on several levels. It's not like the porn industry needs to be demonized ... there are plenty of demons there already!!!

Oh, yeah, as a hetrosexual man I find the 99.9% claim to be highly offensive to my integrity. And believe it to be at, best, a gross exaggeration.


LarasMama profile image

LarasMama 6 years ago from a secret location, Australia

What about women who watch pornography? My husband I both do and neither of us has ever had any type of performance problems - and we both enjoy our time together, with or without the TV on!


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Just like alcohol, it doesn't make everyone a drunk, however by watching you are supporting the industry. Do you really think the industry is worth supporting? Also, I have noticed you are quite young, do you really think that exposing yourself and your husband to this will have good results in the future, what will happen when you get bored of even this?


D. Clark 6 years ago

Pornography is a simple out let of the primortial desire for sexual conquest. Its not love, nor would any reasonable person discern it to be. As for giving a false sense of what a real women is, i would say in this politcally correct,limp wristed, mamebepambe society that we live in, which 40% of women are overweight & 20% them are obese. This would give us a better vision of what a real women should look like. yes love might be the key, but its not natural to love & be intamite with someone if you are not attracted to them. Bottom line if you don't like porno don"t watch it. If you don't satisfy your lover. someone else will!


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Did you ever wonder why so many women have eating disorders? It maybe because of being compared to the women you watch.


jj12345 6 years ago

Well. Lets go back to what have been proven. Men are visual, women are mental. Women are trying to change men as usual.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Men are visual, what a cop out!


jj12345 6 years ago

Even tho, I'm not "walking on my tongue" right now because you look good with those glasses on. But, wasn't the women that started that statement? And, what did it implied? Sounds like some women knew that men are visual stimulated creatures. Like wearing makeups, worrying about their's figures... Copout? Hardly! Now, on the other flip of the coin. We are to be like women in the intimacy department? Noooo. We are not made that way like women. However, if you add some estogen to us, in due time we'll start being more like what women wants, eh? However, I like how my testosterones are right now. Thank you very much. BTW, now you know why some men are gay and more attractive to women. They have less male hormones, and more female hormones.


jj12345 6 years ago

K, Brie! I just ran across this part of your "21 ways to make cash in one day" hub. #17 says...

"17.Pose as a nude model: They can make$30 to $100 dollars an hour, of course I would never do this but you might."

Does this means that you know men are visual? my, my, my...


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

That means that I know men and women who are artists!!!! Geez!


soulglow05 6 years ago

I have a few rebuttals.

1) This sounds more like “Why Pornography is bad for Women” rather than men for the articles emphasis on expectations of women’s beauty and the consequences for women. Trust me plenty of men don’t just seek the perfect 10, ever expect to attain a perfect 10, and plenty love the woman they are with.

2)Plenty of “average” women have relationships, get married, etc with men who watch porn.

3)Men have always separated sex from love. That’s innate. Porn has been around for less than 100 years. Men separating sex from love is not a new phenomena.

4)The example of the porn addict is phenomena of the minority and he had other underlying issues that kept him from meeting attainable women. Watching porn non stop doesn’t help, but due to his underlying issues if it wasn’t porn it would be video games, dungeons and dragons, car model building, or other anti social obsessions so that he wouldn’t have to face the crippling issues of his self image in public ( and not have to interact with others so that they judge his self image or lack thereof and be rejected).

But I completely agree that a man should love and worship his wife fully. If you think porn takes away from that, then so would movies with attractive women, music videos, magazines, commercials, the gym, walking down the street , the mall, grocery shopping etc etc etc. My point is that I agree with you that a man should have self control and not cheat, but thinking his mind will be forever pure and never even look at another woman is unlikely and unrealistic. I have never cheated on a girlfriend in my life. When I am with a woman I do refrain from looking at other women in real life. But seeing an attractive woman on tv, movie, magazine, porn, etc is like looking at a cartoon…it’s a form of fantasy that has no basis in real life.

As for men comparing women to models and women having eating disorders etc etc. Its women who do that. Women are the most guilty of perpetuating those negative effects. Blaming men for all of that is like blaming McDonald's for people being overweight. It really boils down to lack of confidence, and if porn wasn't dwindeling their self confidence something else would ( like women who get breast implants thinking it will solve all their self image problems....only to make things worse)....just like if it wasn't McDonalds making someone fat it would be another fast food restaurant.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

I disagree


barry.b 6 years ago

and what if your wife is dead?

what if you're so distraught in losing her you're looking for some - any - any comfort?

fill your life with one-night stands? Try to seek another relationship while being an emotional cripple? Pay a prostitute (body image considerations while choosing the worker)

far too cut-n-dried an opinion here.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Pornography degrades women and men but especially women. I don't think you should ever use someone for your own gratification.


ohioguy365 6 years ago

I mostly agree with this. But, i am aware that there are so many different kinds of porn out there. Example, BBW, Mature, Redheads, Smoking fetish porn, etc. So, to say that men have unreallistic expectations is not right, for all men. The type of porn i watch, is the same type of woman i date. Plump, large, BBW woman is the type i like. So, that is the type of porn i consume.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Whatever it is ..it separates sex from intimacy and that is unhealthy.


M. T. Dremer profile image

M. T. Dremer 6 years ago from United States

Pornography can create unrealistic expectations, however it isn't exclusive to men. A woman who watches it can get the wrong impression of a man's body as well as how the act of sex is performed. These are movies and as such they are cut in a way to be a movie, thus not accurately representing sex.

However the effect of pornography on a person largely depends on their personality. For example, someone might view the women in the magazines as a form of art (with all the airbrushing included) while at the same time considering a real woman's body a work of art as well. It would be like thinking two flowers, while completely different, are both beautiful. I think a lot of men are able to see it this way.

Chances are, if a man becomes addicted to pornography and forsakes all real women; he's the kind of man you don't want to be associated with anyway. Taking away the pornography isn't really going to do anything because he will just find something else to obsess over. Its the same thing when people argue against addictive video games; it isn't the game's fault that the user spent eleven straight hours playing. Ultimately we are all responsible for our own decisions.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

I would agree with you to a point M.T. Of course certain people will be more affected than others (that's common sense). However, the pervasiveness of pornography constantly hammers away at any realistic view of women...sure it's not the fires fault that it burnt the house but if we allow everyone to play with fire someones house will get burnt.


Rusty C. Adore profile image

Rusty C. Adore 6 years ago from Michigan

If I had read this hub a few years ago I would have agreed to every line without question, but after being exposed to pornography myself (yeah, I'm a woman who can admit it) I have to hold off on my absolute agreement. Pornography is big business with many different genres to choose from. It will only mess with a person's perspective on the human body if their mind was already tilted that way to begin with. The point of porn is that you look at what you like. If someone already has an interest in trim women with big breasts then that is the type of pornography that they watch. Some guys (women too) specifically enjoy heavier types of people (I believe the term is "chubby chaser") so I don't really see that all pornography can alter a person's perspective on the natural human form. People are going to look at pornography that stars the kind of people they are interested in.

I've seen pornography and it doesn't alter my opinion of my husband's body. I do agree that everything in moderation is key, though. And anyone who has developed an addiction to anything (porn, drugs, alcohol, collecting cat calendars) has bigger problems to deal with than just what they are addicted to. I agree with M.T. that we can't blame the subject matter for the viewers obsession, but putting porn on the market for them to view is like putting a bottle of Jack in front of an alcoholic and telling them not to drink it. It's a never ending argument. If it's out there the obsessers (not a word, but you get my point) are going to obsess over it, but there are people out there that can watch it without developing an addiction. So, should something be removed or condemned because a handful of people can't control themselves? Alcohol still fills aisles at grocery stores even though there are people who can't keep their hands off the bottle.


Zach 6 years ago

Sadly, men seek out pornography because most women (not all) don't understand a man's need for sexual release, expression, and exploration. I can't even count on all of my hands and feet, how many friends I have that have been made to feel like lowlifes by their wives or GFs because they want more sex. They aren't seeing sex outside the relationship--they actually DO desire their GF or Wife, but they are rejected. I realize we are made differently--women will NEVER understand the incredible and powerful libido of the man. And men will never understand why women don't share the same. Perhaps it's a cruel joke by God? (believe me, I have to laugh about it, otherwise, I'll cry). Most men I know and am friends with ARE attracted (sexually and otherwise) to "real" women with their various human flaws. I think what happens, though, is that when the rejection just keeps on coming, men seek an outlet. The male sex drive simply doesn't allow a man to say "oh well, another week w/o sex. I guess I'll read a book". No. It doesn't work that way. My point here is that there are quite a lot of levels of "grey" here. It's not black and white, and, the popularity of pornography is just as much the fault of women as it is men's.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Possibly Zach, but I can't help thinking that that view is an excuse (written by a woman of course but I am just being honest here).


Jojo 6 years ago

Thanks Brie, this is a great article.

When I was young I wasn't quite sure what sex was, but always thought of love-making as something romantic, deeply emotional, and quite magical... and I thought that was how everyone was feeling until I discovered porn and I was so disgusted by it... there is NOTHING beautiful about it, so shallow and boring...


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

So true, it degrades everything it touches, thanks for writing Jojo.


Jon 5 years ago

I'm struggling to come away from porn, it has effected my sexual performance and I've acted abnormally through it oo. I have watched it late at night like the men said, I was trying to sleep when all of a sudden I got an incredible urge to look at porn. It has led me into looking at bdsm which has had a negative effect on my life but I have managed to step away from it step by step but my ultimate goal is to never look at porn and to have a normal sexual relationship with a female. I guess I've used porn for comfort too, I'm not confident with girls so I use porn for the sexual thrills I'm not getting. But it has gotten stronger and stronger to a point where I'm emotionally damaged praying to god for help. I'm not even an ugly guy, I'm a good looking man but with not a lot of confidence etc. I have stayed away from porn for two weeks before and I felt great but slipped. I wish I could stay away from it for good


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

Thanks for being so honest Jon..take it one day at a time and your life will be so much better for it...good luck and God bless.


HOOWANTSTONO profile image

HOOWANTSTONO 5 years ago

Very good hub. It also warns "Biblicaly" to stay away from Porn. The word Porn originates from "Fornication" Greek called "Pornea" it is a negative on the mind and body and distorts a persons thinking, also Satanic and is influenced by Satan.

Peace


ivan 5 years ago

jon i'm with you buddy, i'm a Catholic and i go to mass every week and church communities but i still slip up the most i have ever gone without watching porn is like a week and 2 days. it's very hard though i also read the other guys comments maybe all in Moderation?? hmm maybe us men are visual beings. Then i start thinking what if its just my lack of confidence to talk to woman cause the rejection is heartbraking then also my Selfishness with lust desires comes to play. i honestly don't think i'll ever get away from lust but i'm doing much more better then i use to, i tend to look away then just start thinking "man i want her etc etc" on the same not i now i'm addicted to porn cause when days pass i feel alone and really really want to watch porn. still i keep praying to jesus to forgive my sins and have mecry on my soul.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

Personally, I think the only way to deal with an addiction is to completely stop it all together cold turkey.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

Thanks for being so upfront cooljoebay, we need people like you to stand up and tell the truth about this epidemic.


John something.. 4 years ago

Before 18 years old many children are forced into watching porn because they will not get to touch a women for many years to come.

I as a 15 year old started to get boners like crazy when I was 12 I had developed a foot fetish I know its weird but natural. I had no choice but to move on to pornography because it would be unethical and bad to get involved in sexual action at such a young age and I knew this from the beginning and now being 15 years old I have wanted a girlfriend my whole life Porn has increased my desire for a girl friend by 20 times. It gives you a whole knew view its like your own love mate that you can talk your problems with and have fun with. It brought me closer it made me think and be more open minded and to look harder now I have been being the most social I have been in my life. Anyone that says pornography is against God and Jesus said it was bad. How long did people live at the time of Jesus when did they hit there sex years? 12 that's when they were having kids at the time. Would you rather have people having sex unprotected at young ages and ruining there lives or being protected and or watching porn. Now lets move on to the subject at hand. For a married couple I think it would be great to watch porn TOGETHER. I mean if you are sitting next to your wife and you guys decide you want to "spice things up" I think it is perfectly fine.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 4 years ago from Manhattan Author

You, John, have chosen a very dangerous and foolish path.


billy 3 years ago

i really liked your article and I agree with it for the most part.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan Author

Thanks "billy" and thanks for commenting.


$teve 3 years ago

It's not just porn that corrupts men, many triffling women do the same damn thing. Just look at how Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton, and many other skanks use their looks, body and sexuality to make other women feel like crap and end up dating man after man. How do you think these guys feel being mislead in relationships and their outlook on future dating and sex lifestyles? This is why so many of them are angry, frustrated, and confused because sex is used as a weapon.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 3 years ago from Manhattan Author

Well, you should be smarter than to fall for just a pretty face..try dating plainer women!


theDarkness profile image

theDarkness 2 years ago

I have to agree with $teve, it's not just a porn issue when it comes to how (some) men might see women or expect them to act. The media in general is having a massive influence, and not just on the current generation. Sexual innuendo is common in the media, and even slight nudity.. and what would I be watching at the time? That's right-a mainsteam yoghurt advert on the television at 2pm. Whether its the standards of advertising, cinema, movie or music star beliefs or lyrics, music video imagery, reality show or karaoke cowell 'become a star in 2 mins' tv wannabe stars dressing in a certain way for attention - sex can be found everywhere. Why? because it sells. It is not just the internet.

Some might argue that media standards have gone downhill of course. What was banned yesterday is allowed today, so who knows what will be on that tv screen or accepted by the mainstream in 10 or 20 years time.

The popularity of porn is largely down to the fact that its there, its free, and easily accessible, whether on pc, tablet or cellphone. What the youth of today don't learn about in schools due to poor teaching attitudes regarding sex, they will search for online-and unfortunately many will turn to pornographic websites. Porn can play a part in building up a derogatory attitude or unrealistic hopes towards the opposite gender regarding sex or relationships in general for some people, but not all. John above may be young but he made a fair point - if a couple wishes to use pornography in their sex life, it is their business.

Whether its a couple or single man or woman, porn or any other media content, everyone should know how to separate reality from what they watch on that screen. For anyone having problems with their relationship as a result, that relationship was either not that strong in the first place or on a rather slippery slope.

For men addicted to pornography, as with any couple wishing to 'spice up' their sex life as said before, if they must use it, they should only use in moderation. I watched a documentary about an early 20s male who was addicted, and that was indeed a rather sad state of affairs. He lead a rather lonely life as a result. The lack of social activity and too much time online was regarded as a major part of the reason for his downfall. Pornography is thought of by many as a behind closed doors, shameful act. We now live in an age where internet usage, controlled and not, is increasing in our daily lives all the time, and for attitudes to get any better on sex and of course relationships, we need to educate far more on both subjects.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 2 years ago from Manhattan Author

I agree except you don't take into account the objectification and abuse of the women who are providing the porn. The sex trade industry is full of victims and by using porn you are contributing to that.


theDarkness profile image

theDarkness 2 years ago

That is a good point :) Unfortunately the internet is a global environment and any website may be used to take advantage, of either the internet user (particulary financially) or in a means they may not realise under the hood (exploitation-trafficking, minors, financing the drug trade etc). That brings us to the age old question of what websites can anyone really trust? It doesn't just go for pornography, even though it might seem to be one of the most obvious and popular methods of exploitation at present.

My only advice is for users to be very cautious, stick with popular websites that are advertised, particular through the western mass media eg tv & magazines, and with general exploration of the internet, if they are ever doubtful about any websites morals or are questioning the content of anything they are viewing, not to use them.

Some will argue that even where nothing illegal is taking place, men are equally being exploited by the very women that are fully in control of their lives performing online for them. There are even guides from health magazines on how to stop or gauge your level porn addiction. I believe Charlie Sheen also admitted having an addiction once.

So is the porn industry out of control? I would say both Yes and No. In many ways, absolutely-it generates more traffic than absolutely anything on the web, leading to an obvious likelyhood of thousands if not millions of very questionable websites, on a service that is very difficult to regulate. On the other hand, it is purely optional, little pornography is advertised offline, and as with anything else, it can be addictive and abused, just like alcohol and gambling. Do we blame the greedy industry or the user? Gambling has notably had a massive boost through the media over the last couple of years, and addiction to gambling may also be rising rapidly as a result-another issue. If it wasn't there, we would be safe from it, but the public will always want the freedom to choose.

I believe the most common view amongst men is that pornography is of no concern whatsoever, but that is an industry that still focuses on men as its prime customer, that's to be expected. Whether we like it or not, whether its dvd videos, online or phone-in tv chat featuring women with little but a phone to hang on to, I wond6er if male opinions would change on the subject if the industry was more 50/50 with more related pornography created for women and the homosexual market (if that increase isn't already happening).


savvydating profile image

savvydating 21 months ago

Amen to that. The bible has it right, and so do sociologists. The statistics about the harm that the constant viewing of pornography causes is staggering, but true nonetheless. Pornography is an affront to women and men. It can also lead to violent behavior. The recent revelations about the alarming rate of rapes on college campuses attests to that. Voting up & useful.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 21 months ago from Manhattan Author

Thanks "savvydating".


Say Yes To Life profile image

Say Yes To Life 21 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

I wonder - what about female porn, such as confession magazines or spicy books like "Fifty Shades of Gray"? Most girls read it, then lose interest as they grow older and have real relationships. If it doesn't harm women, why should looking at girlie pictures harm men? I've noticed men tend to lose interest after awhile, too. The addiction rate for pornography is 17%, double that of alcoholism. Most people don't get addicted to either one.


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 21 months ago from Manhattan Author

Women are wired differently then men..and who says that it doesn't harm women too, I never said that.

Also, I don't know how or where you get 17%.


Say Yes To Life profile image

Say Yes To Life 21 months ago from Big Island of Hawaii

Here's where I get the statistic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction


Brie Hoffman profile image

Brie Hoffman 21 months ago from Manhattan Author

Well if it's on wikipedia it must be true!

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