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Happy Thanksgiving to all hubbers!

  1. jackclee lm profile image79
    jackclee lmposted 11 days ago

    Just want to wish all a very happy Thanksgiving this holiday season. Let't not forget the reason for this American Holiday. We thank the Creator for our many blessings!

    1. Solaras profile image92
      Solarasposted 11 days ago in reply to this

      Happy Thanksgiving to you too!

    2. Christy Kirwan profile image
      Christy Kirwanposted 11 days ago in reply to this

      Very kind, and Happy Thanksgiving from the HP Team. smile

    3. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
      wrenchBiscuitposted 11 days ago in reply to this


      I will not say what I wish for you. Nor will I reveal my prayer. But I will tell you this:  I am more human than human, and Thanksgiving is a day of mourning for human beings. It is no wonder that the progeny of evil would celebrate the genocide of over 100 million Indigenous, and the enslavement of Indigenous and African people for nearly 400 years beginning in 1492.

      As Water Protectors at Standing Rock are being attacked with rubber bullets, concussion grenades, pepper spray, and water cannons in freezing temperatures, greedy materialistic Americans will be engorging themselves with dead Turkeys and beer, and giving thanks for a stolen continent. It is a disgusting spectacle. If my prayers are answered, perhaps this will be the last. If not, then I will continue to pray.

      1. Jean Bakula profile image96
        Jean Bakulaposted 11 days ago in reply to this

        I share some of your sentiment here from the time I was a teen and read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. I have felt a bond with Native Americans ever since, and in particular felt broken hearted long ago in South Dakota at the Crazy Horse monument. I love nature and am so saddened that people as a whole in America don't respect nature and it's cycles and celebrate it like Native Americans did.

        I am a widow who lives with my adult, vegetarian son, who came back to be with me when my husband/his Dad died. He never enjoyed seeing a dead bird carcass on the table for Thanksgiving, it grossed him out, so I learned to butterfly a turkey. Tomorrow we intend to spend like any other day.

        I also notice other cultures fast or have a day or month of reflection, and then it all ends in a large feast. Since this is a secular country, that can't be imposed, but it would be more fitting for people to give something up or do something special in some way, before a group of about a dozen people gorge themselves with enough food to feed 100 starving people.

        1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
          wrenchBiscuitposted 11 days ago in reply to this


          Thank you Jean. It appears that you are also more human than human. If you are a widow then you are no stranger to pain. And for the living, those of us who are left behind, there is no such thing as a "good death". And there is no such thing as "closure". I am the last of my family, and so there are 3 holes in my heart, and these cannot be repaired.

          But my understanding is not only based on the pain that I have experienced, as it is also based on the fact that I had a beautiful family, and grew up in the lap of luxury on a farm situated among rolling hills, and wide open fields broken here and there by lush woodlands. It is because of the love and the beauty I have experienced, as well as the pain of goodbye, that I have such an understanding. Every child born into this world deserves all that I have had, and more. But because of evil and greedy men, millions have lived, suffered, and died without ever having a small taste of what I took for granted as a child. And this continues to be so, here and throughout the world. I am thankful for my parents, and my family, but I am not thankful for a system that has cheated so many, destroyed so many lives, and caused so much pain.

          1. Jean Bakula profile image96
            Jean Bakulaposted 10 days ago in reply to this

            I understand how those painful losses never really get better, there is no such thing as closure. I lost my parents and many friends at a young age. So by the time I was 27, I was the Matriarch of the family and hosted all holidays with my husband and later, our son. I cherish all those memories too.

            Although I never lived on a farm and am in NJ, my husband and I met at 18 and had the opportunity to take two leisurely drives across the U.S. So I am familiar with all it's kinds of beauty. I love the rocky cliffs with pines in ME, the prairies, the snow in summer on the Rocky Mountains, The Badlands of SD, the Indian villages at Mesa Verde, and the exquisite west coast of California in the redwood region. Today I celebrate that I was able to enjoy all that beauty and with my boyfriend, later husband, who was with me for 39 years.

            As for those who say, "You have to find new traditions" I challenge them to try to do it as much as I did, or you. At this point, my son and I are happy to eat a regular meal and watch a classic movie, and make a donation to a charity. People invite us, but it's awkward when it's not a family you've known for years, they have different ways, even though I am blessed by a few thoughtful friends.

            Take care.

            1. jonnycomelately profile image86
              jonnycomelatelyposted 9 days ago in reply to this

              Ronnie and Jean, as much as we would like to "change the whole world" into something that suits us, it's not going to happen any time soon.  We all know this at heart.
              Yet, around the world you have co-conspirators like myself who balk at the injustices perpetrated in the name of a "Gracious Lord," who apparently puts all the good things in front of good people, but leaves the naughty, lazy, sit-on-their-arses, non-believers out in the cold, with a small window through which to watch the believers engorge themselves.
              Christmas is the same with me.  I haven't the courage to just walk away from it, because when I do I suffer a lot of loneliness as a result. 
              So you have my blessings and encouragement to enjoy the company you keep on your "Thankfulness-for-Being" day.  Good fellowship is a precious gift.

              1. jackclee lm profile image79
                jackclee lmposted 9 days ago in reply to this

                I wrote a hub today to counter your and some other's argument against our nation. Here is the link-
                http://hubpages.com/politics/What-is-Am … ptionalism

              2. Jean Bakula profile image96
                Jean Bakulaposted 9 days ago in reply to this

                Hello johnnycomelately,
                Thanks for expressing your sentiments. I see so many people can't understand what I and WrenchBiscuit are saying, although she is taking a longer, historical view and I'm expressing a loss of loved ones view, though she grieves as I do and I pray for her..

                I see so many people in their early 60's like me, and both their parents are still alive, paying for the feast, and giving their 60+ year old kids a few thousand extra bucks to "buy themselves a little something." The 30+ year old Grandchildren get a new Mercedes for no reason. They probably never did one thing for charity, and look down at their noses or think hard working people who just didn't step in s**t  that turned to roses like they did have something wrong with them.

                I also said I was thankful for my loving husband for the years he was alive, our precious son, and the fact that we both worked hard enough to enjoy travel and see the beauty of many countries, but in particular our own. But I understand the option to spend holidays with anyone you can, because I live that kind of loneliness too, having lost not only family, but all my closest friends. The friends were mostly casualties of their own excesses at the times, but that doesn't make these days any easier. My son and I both gave to charities of choice and made a deal to do it every time we are thinking of buying something we don't really need.

                But although I am thankful for what I have, I do believe Thanksgiving and especially Christmas have been taken over by greedy advertisers who make us feel like lessor people because we don't sit around the Thanksgiving table or under the Christmas tree like we live in a Norman Rockwell painting. A lot of people are suffering as Americans gorge themselves, ignoring Americans themselves who live in poverty or homelessness. They don't need to start seeing ads from greedy retailers hawking Christmas gifts already at Halloween.

                However, I do hope those of you who have family and friends living had a good day, as I made the best of it with my son. I hope your Christmas season is bright as well. We all can find things to be grateful for, but it would be a kinder world if we took the time to invite and nurture those who don't.

                1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                  wrenchBiscuitposted 9 days ago in reply to this

                  LOL! Jean, just to set the record straight, I am a man.

                  1. PhoenixV profile image79
                    PhoenixVposted 9 days ago in reply to this


                    Whatever happens it all happens as it should thou wilt find this true, if thou shouldst watch closely.  Marcus Aurelius

                    Mr. Wrenchbiscuit, if history would have played out differently, would it be possible the world would be without you, today?

                  2. Jean Bakula profile image96
                    Jean Bakulaposted 8 days ago in reply to this
                  3. Jean Bakula profile image96
                    Jean Bakulaposted 8 days ago in reply to this

                    Sorry, Ronnie, was too lazy to get up and get my glasses! Love long hair on men. smile.

                    In the mood to listen to Chimes of Freedom and Cortez the Killer.

        2. Solaras profile image92
          Solarasposted 8 days ago in reply to this

          I don't know about your family "eats," but here we have things called leftovers.  That turkey will make Thanksgiving Dinner, a round of sandwiches, leftovers the next night with all the fixins, the carcass will be reduced to 12 cups of turkey stock, some of which will be used with the leftover bits of turkey to make two turkey pot pies to be frozen and eaten over the next couple of weeks.

          It's a delicious tradition,and I am happy to stand in the kitchen from 10:00 am to 6:30 pm to make it all happen.

          Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday, because it is secular. Everyone can be happy to be with friends and family or grateful for a day off and a long weekend. If you want to thank your god, you can, if you want to thank your employer for the day off, you can, if you want to watch Downton Abbey all day, you can. No presents, just whatever you want to eat and drink.

          1. jackclee lm profile image79
            jackclee lmposted 8 days ago in reply to this

            Great advice and sentiment... and totally non political, thanks for your input.

      2. jackclee lm profile image79
        jackclee lmposted 11 days ago in reply to this

        The real story of Thanksgiving is lost...due to PC and modern secular teachings.
        Here is the real story-


        1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
          wrenchBiscuitposted 11 days ago in reply to this


          As to be expected, you have presented the proclamation of a kidnapper, a rapist, a slaveowner, a murderer, and a thief named George Washington. A miscreant  who had the arrogance and audacity to speak of God while being a proponent of chattel slavery,  and who was also involved in other crimes against humanity. It is not my words but your own that reveal your amorality and indifference to human suffering.  Anyone who believes in God does not worship evil, nor do they glorify evil men.

          1. jackclee lm profile image79
            jackclee lmposted 11 days ago in reply to this

            I am not up to debate today. I do have a book recommendation. Rush Limbaugh just published a new children's book.
            https://www.amazon.com/Rush-Revere-Pres … bc?ie=UTF8
            It is part of a series about American history.
            This latest book is about our first few presidents.
            You might learn something new about these great men that you accuses.

      3. DzyMsLizzy profile image91
        DzyMsLizzyposted 10 days ago in reply to this

        I feel you, wrenchBiscuit, and I agree that the story of the so-called "First Thanksgiving" is such a terrible fiction that the writers of textbooks for our youth insist upon perpetuating.  It disgusts me.
        Sadly, I am alone in my family of traditional celebrators of the day; "must have" turkey and all the fixin's.  I am a vegetarian, and I cannot for the life of me convince them to at least TRY a vegetarian or vegan feast.
        But more to the point, I have long said, "Why slave all day cooking a gut-buster of a meal that takes no longer to consume than a regular meal?"  It just makes no sense on so many levels, not the least of which is the human suffering that the holiday represents.
        I fight a lonely and uphill battle.  Once, and only once, we broke with tradition and simply had a pizza for dinner.  It was so much better, IMO.
        We don't subscribe to religion, but I am much more in tune with the old ways, and respect for nature as were the original Native Americans. 
        I used to enjoy the holiday; but no more, since I have learned what it truly means.
        I wish you peace and love.

        1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
          wrenchBiscuitposted 10 days ago in reply to this


          Thank You DzyMsLizzy.  Muhammad Ali said. “The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” And so it appears you have not wasted your time, and neither have I.

          1. jackclee lm profile image79
            jackclee lmposted 10 days ago in reply to this

            I get where you are coming from but I think you missed the "big picture" of this Holiday. I realize the suffering of American Indians at the hand of the white invaders and that is all part of our history as a nation. This Thanksgiving holiday is more about God and his blessings on our nation and less about the pilgrims and Indians getting together and share a meal.
            Unfortunately, our schools have done a terrible job education our kids about our history. In addition, the recent effort to separate Chuch and State has also distorted history and the true meaning of many holidays.
            I want to ask you to imagine what if America had a different history. What would that look like? Just look around the world and see each continent and how they have turned out. Can you honestly say, they are better off? Every peope from China to India to Africa to South America, to Australia... have been through conflicts, and wars and empires... Even many Indian tribes have had wars among the various tribes...
            You might belief that if only Columbus had not discovered the new world, or if the Pilgrims did not come to Plymouth that all will be well here in America. However, that is not the case. If anything history tell us, it could have been much worse. Imagine Genghis Khan or Japanese Emperor or Hitler had invaded America? Where would we be today?
            I realize it is little consolation for you and your people to live in America knowing what had happened in the past. I get it.
            By the same token, it is wrong to blame all that is wrong with our world on America. We as a nation, on balance, have done something exceptional. We have created a new form of government where the people get to decide our government. We also adopted a capitalism system of economics that have created the wealth to the most number of people. We have defeated fascism and have safe the world from tyranny. We also have the strongest military that are helping the world maintain peace or at least try to. Our wealth have also benefited the rest of the world in terms of trade and charity where their lives have improved from our vast foreign aid both by our goveenment and individuals. We are a generous nation and try to do good.
            I guess it is a matter of one's point of view. A glass half empty or half full. I like to think, we are a force for good. Without America, the world would be a darker place. It is with the blessing of God that we exist and therefore, we take one day out of the year to thank Him. That is the true meaning of this Thanksgiving holiday.

            1. Will Apse profile image91
              Will Apseposted 10 days ago in reply to this

              Yeah, winners and losers.

              1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                wrenchBiscuitposted 9 days ago in reply to this


                You speak as if this evil has only affected the Indigenous people. This evil has affected all of humanity, including the white race. I don't live in a world of make believe. It is not only a matter of what happened in the past, but it is also a matter of what is happening in the present. The killing of innocent citizens by the police, the Enbridge Oil Spill in the Kalamazoo River in 2011, the poisoning of Flint Michigan by Gov. Rick Snyder, and the black snake of DAPL are just a few  recent events that have, and will continue to adversely affected the lives of tens of thousands of Americans. And the Imperialist aggression of the United States that has led to the deaths of thousands of  U.S. soldiers and Middle Eastern people, the destabilization of Libya, and the Syrian refugee  crisis is the same evil that has continued unabated for 250 years.

                War is the business of America, not freedom. America did not free Iceland, Norway, England, France, Sweden, Germany, the Netherlands, or a number of other countries. But they were as free as the people here in the United States prior to the first world war. And both world wars would have never occurred, and Hitler would have never risen to power, if not for the greedy Capitalist Puppet Masters who were, and are the progeny of the evil Invaders who came here in 1492. All of these wars were staged events to further the ambitions  of a ruling elite. They create a problem and then offer a solution of death and destruction. And they always profit from their deadly "solutions". We have been involved in a war of good vs evil for over 500 years on this continent, and the United States is one of the greatest exporters of terrorism in the world today.

                Oh! And there is so much more Jack. For instance, the people of Hawaii were free until they were invaded by the United States and forced to become a state. Bill Clinton even formally apologized to the Hawaiian people during his tenure as President. Another example: The Chagossians of Diego Garcia no longer have a home thanks to the British and the United States. Their land was stolen in the late 60's to build a military base, which is not ancient history. Ask them if they think the world is a better place because of Colonialism, and the Imperialist ambitions of the United States.

                Your claim that if the Europeans had not invaded our continent things could have been worse reminds of "I could have won the race" or "I could have won the lottery". A meteor could also fall out of the sky and hit me in the head. Whatever Genghis Khan or any other tyrant may have done is irrelevant. "What if?" is a ridiculous argument. I would like to hear a rapist try that excuse in a court of law. Here is what it would look like:

                "Gee your honor, I only raped the woman. I didn't hurt her or beat her up. If I hadn't come along another rapist may have killed her, but I let her live. I even wore a condom and gave her cab fair home, because deep down, I'm really a nice guy!"

                That is what your apologist commentary looks like to an educated and informed person. But try as you might, 2 wrongs, three wrongs, 5 wrongs, or even ten thousand wrongs will never make a right; not in a million years. You are standing on the wrong side of history. Jack, the people decide very little here. Do you remember casting a vote that made it legal and proper for less than one percent of the U.S. population to control over 90% of the wealth here in the United States? Do you know anyone who voted for the "Patriot Act?": an immoral law that suspends habeas corpus. Do you know anyone who voted to bail out the banks? Do you know anyone who voted for  the unlawful spying  on Americans by the NSA and other criminal organizations created and controlled by the government?

                Do you know anyone who voted for a seat belt law; an immoral law that was designed to generate billions of dollars in revenue for the city and state. Do you know anyone who voted to have the blood alcohol limit lowered to the point that just looking at a bottle of beer can put you over the limit. DUI is a a major cash cow for the city and state. Billions of dollars are stolen from American taxpayers each year through immoral laws such as these. These are not laws designed to protect the public, but only to fleece the citizen, and to enrich all of those who are riding the gravy train. That cast of miscreants includes, but is not limited to:  politicians, police, judges, lawyers, companies that process urine tests, companies that manufacture and maintain the "blow machines" attached to the motor vehicles of the "offenders", etc..

                And last but not least, the United States did "not" give me freedom of speech. God gave me the freedom of speech, as well as the ability to know right from wrong. Many have said, "Well, if you don't like it why don't you leave?".  I have a very good answer to that.  In a sense, I have left the United States, as I have long ago awakened from the dream.  But in another sense I refuse to leave and abandon my people, or the future generations of Americans: Americans of all races who have yet to be born. When I joined the military I took an oath to protect and defend against enemies both foreign and domestic. And so, I also intend to honor that oath.

                1. jackclee lm profile image79
                  jackclee lmposted 9 days ago in reply to this

                  Wow, you carry some burden on your head. Your facts about  American history though accurate but incomplete. You choose to highlight all the wrongs and non of the good. Tell me one country in this world past or present have been "good" in your mind?  You seek a perfect utopian world that does not exist at least on earth maybe heaven. I know history and I study it. I am a Chinese imigrant that became a naturalized US Citizen by choice. I knew what the Chinese people have suffered under the British and other countries during the Opium war. I know about the rape of Nanking unde the Japanese occupation. I know the millions that were purged under Mao...  I could go on but you get the point. Those events does not make me into a bitter and defeated individual. I chose to be an American because I saw the good this country have done all over the world. When there was a natural disaster as earthquate or tsunami, it is the American Military that was there to help. The very same that you indict as killers and murders. Again, I could list many acts of charity and good deeds done by Amerca for others, with no expectation for payback... We keep peace keeping troops all over the world and we Americans pay for them with our taxes.
                  Finally, you do have something some other people in other nations don't have. You have a freedom of speech just as I have and the proof is us having this discussion or debate here on HubPages for everyone to see. I was vacationing in China this past Spring. The one thing I wrote about is that they have new found weath in China but they still don't have certain basic rights. Do you know google is blocked in China?
                  I ask you lastly, what do you want to see happen? What would make you happy? Do you want to see the destruction of this great nation for the wrongs they have commited? Who or what would you want to replace it with? Give it some thought before answering. Be careful what you ask for.

        2. Let-freedom-rigng profile image60
          Let-freedom-rigngposted 7 days ago in reply to this

          I am really sorry that you feel those resentments, and find something a bit more positive to gear yourself with. Find something to thank God for and get in the word. The word of God. A new day is something to be thankful for.

          1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
            wrenchBiscuitposted 6 days ago in reply to this


            wrenchBiscuit responds to criticism:

            Your opening is a standard condescending cliche that serves the purpose of social etiquette, but lacks any semblance of sincerity. There were millions of Americans, including Senators, Congressmen, a U.S. President, and a Vice-President who were calling for vengeance, blood, and war after 9/11. Approx. 3,000 people died in that attack, on that one day. Many justified the anger, and they got their war. As a result, thousands of soldiers died, along with thousands of innocent Iraqis. But all of that killing did not resurrect one person who died on 9/11. And now we know there were no "Weapons of Mass Destruction", Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and that the war was all about oil. However, the war criminals who provoked and prosecuted that war: George Bush Jr. and Darth Cheney, are still walking on sunshine.

            Yet, you dare to direct your comments at me in spite of the genocide of over one hundred million of my Indigenous ancestors, in spite of nearly 400 years of chattel slavery, in spite of continued racist oppression, and in spite of the fact that even white Americans are nothing more than wage slaves pretending Jesus, and paying tribute to a ruling elite. Resentment is what a housewife feels when her husband buys his mistress a new car. You know nothing of how I feel; just as I know nothing of how a lamb feels before it's throat is cut, it's body viciously dismembered, gutted, and then cooked and served to a nice Christian family.

            wrenchBiscuit is thankful:

            I am thankful for many things.  I am thankful that I have had good friends. I am thankful that I had a wonderful family. I am thankful that I have good health. I am thankful that I have the libido of an 18 year old male who has been tied to a post outside of a strip joint for six months. I am thankful that I am a talented artist and musician. I am thankful that my mother died quickly. I am thankful that the cancer only took a few months to kill my father, and that he had plenty of morphine available to ease the pain. And I am thankful for so much more. And concerning this grotesque celebration of genocide, I am thankful that I am intelligent enough to know the difference between good and evil.

            wrenchBiscuit defines evil :

            Evil is not the young man selling drugs on a street corner, nor is evil the young woman prostituting herself to support her own drug habit. The young man is trying to survive, and the young woman is also trying to survive, and to cope with a harsh reality.

            Evil is the hand that placed them there.

            Evil is the black heart that designed the cracks wide enough so that many would surely fall between them.

            Evil is the opportunists and the profiteers who use cartoon images to entice children to eat the sweet candy, the salty potato chips, and the fast food that poisons their precious bodies.

            Evil is the Christians who pretend Jesus and pass the collection plate, as their tax dollars continue to fund death, destruction, and Imperialist aggression in Syria, and throughout the Middle East, as well as the murder of U.S. citizens by the police.

            Evil is Big Pharma and Big Oil, Monsanto, Energy Transfer Partners, and the Dakota Access Pipeline.

            Evil is a government that uses children as guinea pigs and injects them with experimental drugs under the pretense of inoculation.

            Evil is those who accept Manifest Destiny, sing patriotic songs, and observe holidays that glorify rape, thievery, murder, and genocide.

            wrenchBiscuit reveals a Weapon of Prayer:

            You speak of God as if you are familiar, and in a sense that is true, since we all are imbued with the breath of life. But your careless words reveal that you have never seen, or at least do not recognize a Weapon of Prayer. It is also clear that you cling to the Eurocentric notion that the Europeans and the Jews have a monopoly on God. Of course this is demonstrably false, as Jesus was here in Cemanahuac long before the arrival of Columbus. Jesus stood with the Taino people and greeted Columbus at the shoreline. But instead of returning the love of God, Columbus put Jesus in chains, enslaved him, and forced him to dig for silver and gold. The colonizers have defiled the image of God for over 500 years. And that is nothing to celebrate.

            I do not pretend to know your mind. But your careless words indicate that your understanding of God is from stories that were written in a book. My understanding of God is through personal revelation, and my information is not second-hand, as I have been dealing directly with the source since I was a child. God is my teacher, and God is the father of my father, to infinity. God walks beside me and attends to my need, as I am God's creation, as I am grown from the seed placed in my mothers womb by the very hand of God. Not even a fool would pot a beautiful flower and then leave it to die of thirst. I have not been abandoned, and I can never be defeated. Yes, I can be ridiculed, tortured, and even murdered; but only to be resurrected; but only to rise up from the dead even stronger against mine enemies.

            We all have free will. We can choose to lay down with the devil, or we can choose to stand and acknowledge before man that God is above all laws and all nations. We can choose to speak against this evil system, or we can remain silent. It appears, Christian, that you have made your choice, and it should also be abundantly clear that I have made mine.

            1. PhoenixV profile image79
              PhoenixVposted 6 days ago in reply to this

              It seems well that Let Freedom Rigng is not yet acquainted with matter of adventures.

              1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                wrenchBiscuitposted 6 days ago in reply to this

                Well, she just embarked on a new adventure to a brave new world.

                1. PhoenixV profile image79
                  PhoenixVposted 6 days ago in reply to this

                  On a steed called el rucio?

                  1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                    wrenchBiscuitposted 6 days ago in reply to this

                    No, on Recto y Estrecho Blvd.

      4. mts1098 profile image83
        mts1098posted 11 days ago in reply to this

        happy and safe holiday everyone...food and football all day...cheers

      5. PhoenixV profile image79
        PhoenixVposted 10 days ago in reply to this

        Happy Thanksgiving Mr. Jackclee. Thank you. 


      6. Endy Noble profile image79
        Endy Nobleposted 10 days ago in reply to this

        Happy thanksgiving to you too, PhoenixV

        1. PhoenixV profile image79
          PhoenixVposted 10 days ago in reply to this

          Thank you Mr. Noble happy thanksgiving to you too

      7. viryabo profile image85
        viryaboposted 10 days ago in reply to this

        Happy thanksgiving smile

    4. Say Yes To Life profile image87
      Say Yes To Lifeposted 11 days ago

      Happy Thanksgiving to you too!

    5. ILoveLegosToo profile image58
      ILoveLegosTooposted 11 days ago

      I hope everyone has a joyful and safe Thanksgiving.

    6. Janellegems profile image46
      Janellegemsposted 11 days ago

      Happy Thanksgiving to You and to All the Hubbers.  Have a great holiday.

    7. Yanglish profile image78
      Yanglishposted 11 days ago

      "For each new morning with its light,
      For rest and shelter of the night,
      For health and food, for love and friends,
      For everything Thy goodness sends."

      Have a joyous Thanksgiving!

    8. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 11 days ago

      The pilgrims were thankful for the bounty they were able to bring forth from the earth. Which we do to this day.
      In thanks for the harvest, we say, "Happy Thanksgiving!" smile
      … and we know there is no need to be greedy. We are thankful to have what we need for a happy life and be able to share what we have with others.

    9. Paul Kuehn profile image90
      Paul Kuehnposted 10 days ago

      Happy Thanksgiving!

    10. Will Apse profile image91
      Will Apseposted 10 days ago

      You need some patience with other people's creation myths. They may have little to do with reality but real feelings (such as they are) are involved.

      1. Yoda Speaks profile image61
        Yoda Speaksposted 9 days ago in reply to this

        I don't understand, are you advocating to not challenge a myth that has little to do with reality because the believer of the myth may have his/her feelings hurt?

        btw A Thanksgiving Happy to you all.

    11. PhoenixV profile image79
      PhoenixVposted 9 days ago


      “Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
      ― Marcus Aurelius

      Merry Christmas

      1. Yoda Speaks profile image61
        Yoda Speaksposted 9 days ago in reply to this

        Happy New Year


        Follow the example of this election,

        1. PhoenixV profile image79
          PhoenixVposted 9 days ago in reply to this


          Happy holidays to you

        2. jackclee lm profile image79
          jackclee lmposted 9 days ago in reply to this

          I apologize to all for the political turn on this forum. It was not my intention. I just wanted to wish all a Happy Thanksgiving Day.

          1. Yoda Speaks profile image61
            Yoda Speaksposted 9 days ago in reply to this

            Like a little PC, to me sounds. From Jacklee surprised I am. smile

        3. PhoenixV profile image79
          PhoenixVposted 8 days ago in reply to this


          The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury. Marcus Aurelius

          Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    12. Solaras profile image92
      Solarasposted 8 days ago

      This Forum thread exactly explains WHY TRUMP WAS ELECTED. Someone comes on and says, "Have a Happy Thanksgiving."

      Others come on and say things like "You too! Enjoy the holiday!"

      Then Thanksgiving, a holiday for everyone to enjoy, friends and family, (and yes many if not most of us give to food banks and at checkout counters, so the less fortunate can also enjoy this day of feasting) then becomes an opportunity to shame the majority of Americans.  We are cruelly celebrating the genocide of a continent of people. Others shame us for having a feast, eating too much and even eating poultry. Thanksgiving is sickening.

      The silent majority of America says,"No... and BTW F**K you and the horse you rode in on. We are sick of the fringe, the tail wagging the dog.  Let's vote for Trump.  He tells it like it is!"

      1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
        wrenchBiscuitposted 8 days ago in reply to this


        That's funny. And you are right about the dog too. Couldn't have said it any better myself.  But you have underestimated the metaphorical tail, as we are not only relentless, but we are legion. I'm not surprised that you think the man who said "Grab 'em by the Whatchamacallit" is a role model. It all fits perfectly. As far as shaming anyone is concerned, the man who glorifies evil shames himself, and willingly reveals to the world that he is an abomination before God and man. He does not need any help from me or anyone else. My goal is to lift people up so that they can first free themselves from mental slavery, and then physically free themselves from the tyrants who rule over them.

        Not many would have a problem with a Jew who protested the posting on Hubpages of a Nazi celebration that glorified  the Jewish Holocaust of over 6 million Jews. I am not Jewish, but I would be the first to condemn such a posting. However, in spite of the American Holocaust that led to the deaths of over 100 million of my Indigenous ancestors, we  are expected to accept this evil, and even participate in it. And the reason for that is very simple. The Indigenous people of this continent were never considered to be human beings by the European Invaders, and so this feeling has continued among the American mainstream unto the present.  I do not believe in censorship, but I do believe in free speech, and that is the gift of free speech bestowed upon me by God. And so, I am ready to challenge anyone.  Apparently you don't like the concept of free speech. But isn't that supposed to be one of the major selling points of the "American Dream?"

        1. Solaras profile image92
          Solarasposted 8 days ago in reply to this

          Careful now, "We are legion" is the calling card of the demonic possessors of the souls of despondent little boys and girls.

          I am a big fan of freedom of speech. If Trump wants to keep a giddy Billy Bush giggling by saying, "Grab 'em by the pussy!" well who am I to take offense at their private conversation. Trump is not my man, but I can see how his fan base has grown weary of being berated relentlessly for every Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, and have a nice day that is spoken.

          I read recently where the satanic cult was offering safe harbor and themselves as bodyguards to those feeling they might be persecuted when walking on the streets. Which sort of brings us back to the beginning again.

      2. Yoda Speaks profile image61
        Yoda Speaksposted 8 days ago in reply to this

        Solaras, Donald Trump couldn't have said it better. What these people, the ever shrinking fringe, don't understand is that they are the reason fewer and fewer people care to even tolerate their hate for America (and Christianity).They are THE reason we have a Trump presidency and they know it so it galls them to the point they go nuts. 
        Shocking interview with Donald Trump voter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j-TWKFuIq0

        1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
          wrenchBiscuitposted 8 days ago in reply to this


          What you don't understand is that these ignorant people who voted for Trump did "not" elect Trump. "The Donald Trump and Hillary Show" was presented and produced by the same ruling elite that gave us "The Barack Obama Show". Anyone who thinks that Barack Obama, who many Americans had never heard of until 2007, was elected "by the people for the people" should take a good look behind the curtain.

          What you do not understand is organized crime. It is quite pathetic that a majority of Americans actually believe that wealthy and powerful families who have been in the drivers seat for over 200 years would move over and let peasants take the wheel, all because of the "popular vote" or the "electoral college", both of which are part and parcel of the "Dog and Pony Show". Speaking more slowly: It isn't real, and this has never been a Democratic Republic. The United States has remained an English colony since the end of the Revolutionary War, and the form of government that functions here is an Oligarchy. This is not a two party system.

          If Donald Trump becomes President it will be at the direction of those families, individuals, and diabolical entities that control this government. If the Electoral College chooses Hillary Clinton then it will still be at the direction of the Shadow Government. During this last election cycle what you have witnessed is a scripted drama, the outcome of which was decided even before Obama was "elected" for his second term. These people are very intelligent and very ruthless, and they leave nothing to chance.

          If Donald Trump becomes President then he will do what he is told to do by the home office; just like Obama and all who came before. And this is just another reason why America was never great in the first place. The European peasants who immigrated here were dumb enough to believe that if they helped to enslave the Africans and to slaughter my people and steal our land that they and their descendants would have a stake in the future of America. But as many white Americans are beginning to realize today, the European peasantry were simply pawns used to build an Empire. And with each passing year they become increasingly expendable. I am truly "The White Man's Moses". Hold your head up and live like men. Get out of the voting booth and free yourselves from tyranny.

          1. Solaras profile image92
            Solarasposted 7 days ago in reply to this

            I agree with most of this - exactly how do we free ourselves from the tyranny?

            1. Will Apse profile image91
              Will Apseposted 7 days ago in reply to this

              It would be a step forward if ordinary Americans stopped believing that those born into wealthy families were somehow superior to them.

              Then they might organize to make sure their voices were heard.

              1. Solaras profile image92
                Solarasposted 7 days ago in reply to this

                Most of us don't believe that, but they do.  That is where the power of money comes into play. They have a private club we are not invited to enjoy.  For the public they gift new buildings at private schools and hospital wings with their names on them and advertise themselves as charitable donors.  It makes it harder for the rest of us to call them evil pieces of sh!t. Their media supports them, PBS supports them, because these institutions need their funds. We all need their funds.  So sad about us. I would like to know how to exist outside of the system, but good luck with that.  You do have to pay property taxes, income taxes ad valorem taxes...Only unibombers get a free ride outside and inside of the system.

                1. Will Apse profile image91
                  Will Apseposted 7 days ago in reply to this

                  As far as I'm concerned the rich are not evil, but they will naturally pursue their interests ruthlessly and these are often at odds with other groups. When ordinary people are powerless, which seems to be the case in the US, their interests will come to dominate the entire country.

                  Democracy is a wonderful invention but power needs to be widely spread to actually work.

                  1. Solaras profile image92
                    Solarasposted 7 days ago in reply to this

                    True the rich are not necessarily evil, but the pursuit of accumulating riches at the expense of a decent wage for your employees is. And it becomes an illness, an obsession, to accumulate wealth that one and one's heirs could never spend in 5 lifetimes. And they appear to look down on the less fortunate as sub-human.  Not deserving of an education, as it's a waste of capital. 

                    They are taught in groups, like Young Entrepreneurs Organization, that employees are like children. (I was privy to this crap) They see them as children, not adults making life choices or making serious choices everyday about how the business is run on the real person to person level.

                    There is a sick cult of personality in this country.  Top level individuals are lauded as the end all be all - yet in the 80s Tom Peters wrote a book In Search Of Excellence.  That book listed the best companies in America and how they achieved greatness was by giving credit to those workers who drove the enterprise forward, at every level.  As a result people would excell merely for being given credit for the contribution the to organization. Sadly those practices are gone with the wind. That respect for the worker could not be further from the truth today in a US enterprises, and t is a sad turn of events.  Employees are just ground to the nub doing 2-3 persons jobs. Psychologists might say that there was a self-fulfilling prophecy in treating employees as children. Certainly everyone works to the level they feel they are being compensated.

                    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                      Kathryn L Hillposted 7 days ago in reply to this

                      WHAT are you talking about?

            2. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
              wrenchBiscuitposted 7 days ago in reply to this


              It is both very difficult, and very simple to do.

              It is Difficult:

              It is difficult because we are held within a very special type of prison. We have been imprisoned by our own carnal lust and desire. I am aware that such a proclamation may conjure images of a bible thumping redneck from the backwoods of Kentucky, but I assure you I am not.

              We have been mesmerized by consumerism and modern convenience. This is our prison, and this is our ball and chain. And although I understand that the ruling elite are a sub-human type of animal, more reptilian in nature, as opposed to a mammal that displays emotion, they are nevertheless quite intelligent, and more than a few of them are operating at a genius level.

              They have created a system in which we police ourselves, and where we keep ourselves within these prison walls, which are the parameters they have prescribed for us. And as you have witnessed in this thread and others, many working class people who have also been enslaved by the system will adamantly defend their oppressors, and the status quo. And many will defend it as vehemently as a rottweiler or a doberman will defend it's master. Some will even kill to maintain their own perpetual servitude. And they will do this because their carnal lust is being fulfilled to a certain degree; just as a dog will become loyal to the man who is throwing him the tasty scraps of meat from the dinner table.

              We have our television shows and movies for entertainment. We have toothpaste and fast food. We have Coca Cola and other unhealthy beverages that are sweet and refreshing. We have central air conditioning and heat. We have supermarkets, shopping malls, and automobiles. We have Budweiser,whiskey,and rum. We have make up, mascara, and shampoo. We have a big house with a two car garage and an in-ground pool.  And we have jobs to make the money that keeps the wheels rolling in the land of milk and honey.

              These are just a few of the chains that bind us. And all of these chains are ultimately connected and controlled by those who rule over us. And what I have briefly described here is the difficulty we face in freeing ourselves from tyranny. We have become a nation of  junkies who are addicted to consumerism and convenience. And this is to our own detriment, and to the further enrichment of a ruling elite.

              It is Simple:

              It is simple because we can free ourselves yesterday if we so choose. We must begin the transition. And this transition from perpetual servitude to freedom must take place at a community grassroots level all across the nation. First of all we must start small, in our own communities. Members of the community must first  collectively agree that this system does not, and has not ever served the best interest of the common man, regardless of race. And this is very important, because a man  will never seek change if he cannot recognize that there is a problem. This is a matter of educating the public by any means available. It is a matter of educating your family and your friends.  What you will then see happening is a domino effect. Once one community makes a successful transition others will follow.

              And what does this transition entail? Each community must take steps to move away from consumerism and a global or national economy, and to focus more on local agriculture, local artisans, local tradesmen, local manufacturing, and sustainable green power that is freely available to the entire community. And this needs to be explained:

              Water and air are essential in order to sustain human life. Likewise, energy is also essential. We will die if we become too cold, and we will also die if it becomes too hot. We also need energy to preserve food, and to communicate. Without communication human life is also at risk. Energy ultimately comes from the Sun. And who can claim ownership of the Sun but the God who created it? Consequently, it should be written into the law that anyone seeking to "sell" energy , or to limit the citizens right to access that energy, should be considered a criminal, and treated as such.

              The community must end it's reliance on supermarkets and fossil fuels. The use of automobiles can be de-escalated by investing in efficient and affordable mass-transit. The money that taxpayers spend each year to incarcerate non-violent offenders, such as those convicted of  Marijuana possession, or sale, could easily cover the costs.  And once each community becomes self-reliant, there will be less of a need for the automobile, as everything the citizen needs will be within reach, and available within his/her own community.

              This is just a brief outline of how this can be done. Giving more control to the community lessens the influence of government and greedy corporations. Thus, we realize a bloodless revolution. And isn't that what everyone wants? I am prepared to help anyone transform their community into a self-sufficient, and self-sustaining oasis that is free from the primitive supply and demand economics of a global and national economy. And I am confident that Jacklee will help me do it, as it is essential in any endeavor to maintain the proper balance.

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
                Kathryn L Hillposted 7 days ago in reply to this

                uh … you would have to stop the production of ships and airplanes. cars too.  I think you might like to live with the Amish. Go live with them and then get back to us. lol

                1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                  wrenchBiscuitposted 7 days ago in reply to this


                  What I am suggesting will eventually come to pass, because people want to be free.  You are making light of it for the very reasons I have previously stated. And so you have only confirmed my assertions. Thank You Kathryn! We don't have to take up arms, march up and down the street, get beat up by the police, or stop the production of anything. We simply need to learn a little self-control. We need to stop  relying on mass produced goods and create a new social paradigm that puts the local community at the center of our  universe. We will always have a need for ships, airplanes, trucking , and trains. The idea is to lessen our reliance on large corporations like Monsanto: multi-national corporations  that flood the market with mass produced, and often hazardous products, as well as our reliance on Big Pharma and Big Oil.

    13. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 days ago

      What do you, as an individual person on earth, need?

      1. Solaras profile image92
        Solarasposted 8 days ago in reply to this


        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
          Kathryn L Hillposted 8 days ago in reply to this

          That is a very sophisticated answer. It is not the answer most of the youth would give. I wonder why?

          1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
            wrenchBiscuitposted 8 days ago in reply to this

            "The Price Is Right"  and "Let's Make A Deal" were perfect shows for Americans. Money is truly all that a majority care about. They give lip service to Jesus and morality, and yes, they will even make the token gesture once and a while of feeding homeless people on Thanksgiving. But unfortunately, homeless people need to eat everyday, not just once a year. And if it weren't for the money, nobody would be homeless, or poor in the first place. The best thing to do for the homeless, and everyone else is to round up the greedy bankers and throw them all in prison, including the bank tellers and the managers, as they are all complicit  in the fleecing of the American people.. That is a good place to start. From there we could work our way through Congress and the House of Representatives. We could make room for them by releasing all of the people who have been sent to prison for Marijuana, which would create a huge vacancy.

            1. jonnycomelately profile image86
              jonnycomelatelyposted 8 days ago in reply to this

              It seems to me that greed and selfishness happen regardless of what the money is.  Maybe these traits are left-overs from our primeval state.  Survival for the individual depends on strength, cunning, determination, opportunity, gathering like-minded individuals around one's self for protection when the going gets rough.  The condition is fraught with danger and risk.  Very much a lonely and anxious state to be in.

              Conversely, survival for the group depends on individuals working for the good of the tribe, as well as for self-preservation.  This must be done cooperatively if both individual and group are to survive the dangers "out there."

              If we try to distance our thoughts and reactions from blame and guilt, recognising instead our basic, instinctive habits which drive our lives, then we can perhaps find more social ands successful ways of behaving.

              "Money" is a very good, efficient, easy medium of exchange, provided it's kept as that and not allowed to gain a value in its own right.. This is where I feel the government should play its proper role.  It should be setting the parameters for our community life; rules, codes of conduct, etc., disciplines, penalties, commonly accepted ways of behaving.....and not getting the government involved with matters which are "commercial in confidence."  That can only lead to conflict of interest and guess who ultimately loses out?

              It's quite possible that our over-populated world is destined to see much more of the anti-social activities which have been observed in other species when subject to over-crowding.  Hopefully our human species will see the light in time.

              1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                wrenchBiscuitposted 8 days ago in reply to this


                The Return of The White Man's Moses

                Yes, you have raised some good points, but my position is that it has been proven that the system of money, as it has existed over the last 150 years, simply does not to work for the majority. In fact, the system only enriches very few while leaving the majority in either an impoverished state, or tethered to a grinding wheel of wage slavery.

                If Americans sacrificed some of their holidays and leisure time, and instead of relying on the voting booth and crooked politicians, took the time to regain control over their own destiny, they would then truly have something to celebrate and be thankful for. I have often said I am the White Man's Moses, and so I will prove this once again.

                Rather than fix a broken wheel, a wheel that was crooked to begin with, it is better to replace it. There are many junkies who thought in the beginning that they could casually use heroin as a recreational drug, or as a pain killer when needed. But anyone who has ever used heroin or opium can tell you that such a thing is next to impossible to do. Money is just as addictive and destructive as heroin. Money itself has no intrinsic value. You can use paper money to build a fire if you are freezing to death , but aside from that it has no value, except for an imaginary value, which is  the imaginary credits that have been assigned to it.

                Exhibit A:

                For instance, who can really place a value on time? Johnny, time is priceless, and I know you agree. Even onhorseback and wilderness would agree with that. Yet, a man can spend 8 hours of his life over here and make 8 dollars an hour, while another man can spend the same 8 hours doing the same job over there and make 15 dollars an hour. How is this possible. It is possible because either the employer of the 8 dollar man is not making enough of a profit to pay a higher wage, or because the employer is greedy and wants to own three houses instead of two. At any rate, money opens the door to this type of discrepency, or temptation. Who suffers? The worker, his family, and society. Society suffers because the man who feels he is being cheated may only do as much as he is required to do. He may give only 100% when he is capable of giving 250%. Or he may give even less.

                Exhibit B:

                A man can make a pair of shoes and sell them for 20 dollars. Another man can make a winter coat and sell it for 50 dollars. Which has more value? Both men spent the same amount of time making each item.  The fact is we cannot place a greater or lesser value on either item. The value is determined by who needs a particular item and how much they will actually use the item. Naturally, the shoes would have more value here in Florida instead of a winter coat. A winter coat down here is about as useless as a motorcycle in Syracuse New York. And so, now we have the issue of supply and demand which creates many problems. A low demand can quickly reduce a worker and his/her family to the poverty level. This in turn creates another problem. The worker may be a master at his trade, but because of a sudden low demand he is now forced to find another job. Once the market rebounds this talented individual may not be able to make the transition back to his original occupation. Furthermore, the trauma associated with losing his source of income and being unable to maintain his standard of living,  may have led to alcohol or drug abuse, and even incarceration. Who suffers? The man, his family, and society. The community has now lost a valuable asset.

                Exhibit C:

                Another problem with money is that unscrupulous people can steal money, or engage in destructive and illicit activities in order to accumulate credits. A drug dealer can go into any car dealership and buy an expensive car. A man involved in human trafficking can eat at the finest restaurants in town. And a greedy politician making shady deals with taxpayer money can afford a winter home in Key West. Such men have no proof of the value of their currency. The value is simply based on the amount of credits; not the means by which the money, or credits were earned. Along with the obvious problems caused by this behavior, we must also understand that it unnecessarily adds to the burden of law enforcement.

                The solution is to destroy the current system and move from a global or national system, to a local, community based system of exchange. This would help to separate the wheat from the chaff, and to solve the problems I have pointed out, as well as other problems I have not addressed here.

                1. jackclee lm profile image79
                  jackclee lmposted 8 days ago in reply to this

                  You have zero understanding of how economics work. I recommend reading "free to choose" by milton friedman, Nobel winner of economics. If you can't afford it, I can loan you my copy free of charge. It is frustrating for me to hear your distorted views of history and of economics. I'm really not sure where you come off. Therefore, I suggest going back to the basics. Please learn how economics works and how it relates to human interactions. Your pie in the sky Utopia society is just a dream. Sorry to be so blunt and I mean no disrespect.

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image86
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 8 days ago in reply to this

                    I see that Ronnie has painted just one aspect of the picture and there other sides equally valid. But I do respect his version more than yours, Jackclee.   You have painted a picture of a "good christian's" point of view -  one that is not so good at heart as you wish it to appear.   This is the hypocracy of blind christian-ism and it is most likely going to be the downfall of your country, perhaps even the world order.  Just wait and see.  Not so violent as the other Abrahamic religion but just as destructive of society.

                    As least, that is how it appears from where I am sitting.

                  2. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                    wrenchBiscuitposted 8 days ago in reply to this


                    Friedman was my subordinate, and I highly doubt that he ever had an original thought. He won the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences, and guess what Jack? People are still poor all over the world. Barack Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2009, but more innocent people have been killed in drone attacks on his watch than any other President. I suppose you will tell me I don't know how politics works. But I can count, and the dead bodies keep piling up.

                    These people on the committee that decides these awards have about as much credibility as a used car salesman. It is clear that you are quite impressed by money and fancy titles. But I will tell you a secret Jack. When your heroes sit down on the throne, the stench is just as disgusting as a Hobo's special delivery on a midnight train to Georgia. But I am not offended Jack. When I go to the zoo and talk to the monkeys they don't understand either. They look at me like I'm crazy. And perhaps I am, but I feel that even monkeys have a right to know the truth about their captivity

                    Jack, it is a fact that the economic system  you champion only works for a small minority. If the current system works, then how do you explain the poverty that has existed in this country for 250 years. Are you suggesting that the millions of poor people who have lived and died in the United States since 1776 were poor because they lacked the motivation, or the skills to succeed?  I will tell you another secret Jack: Not even a lazy man want's to live in abject poverty, and he will do anything he can to rise above it. And a man who is forced to work 60 hours week, at some point understands that he is being abused by the system.  Instead of reading books written by hacks , you need to sit down, you need to slow down, and just think about it Jack.

                    I have no respect whatsoever for all of the economic gurus that come out of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or any other over-priced and overrated institution. In fact, I am disgusted by these people. They all publish books full of graphs, statistics, and numbers, and many are held up to the public as great wise men. But apparently  I have more wisdom than the entire lot, because I can clearly see that the system does not work. A system based on supply and demand is primitive, and chaotic at best. And it is reasonable to suggest that after over 200 years , one might expect that such learned men, and women, would have figured out a way to end poverty. But they haven't Jack. Why? Because it is impossible to end poverty in a Capitalist system that requires an underclass in order to function. Whatever books you have been reading, I suggest you use them for your next bonfire, or weeny roast.

                    1. jackclee lm profile image79
                      jackclee lmposted 8 days ago in reply to this

                      If you are so smart, please tell us what system will get rid of poverty? Where has it been tried and succeeded? On the contrary, I am not worshipping money and fame as you claim. If you read some of my hubs and my autobiography, you will see that I am an independent thinker. I don't follow the crowd like sheep and I don't support some of what is going on. I am against crony capitalism, and government waste and many things that make our system corrupt... I try to live my life by lifting others and come up with pragmatic solutions. I fully realize that we live in an imperfect world and that somethings cannot be achieved no matter what we wish for. Perhaps, that is the difference between you and me. You look at life as half empty and I perfer to see it as half full.

            2. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
              Kathryn L Hillposted 8 days ago in reply to this

              The youth do not have money on their minds, because it was given to them for most of their lives. Mom and Dad told them to make grades. Not money. Teachers told them they would be able to pursue their interests / talents and become a functional member of society after they get out of school if they make good grades. No one warned them about the fierce competition to obtain the jobs, careers or positions they aimed for since high school. Then, they obtain the degree they leave college with and all they know is making high grades and complying with the many authority figures: parents/teachers/principles who have been charge of them for 21 or more years. They know how to study, not how to solve actual problems or perform hands-on services. They know how to force themselves to do exactly what everyone tells them to do. They know how to force themselves to listen and believe what the teachers and professors teach them, even if it goes against their own common sense. So, they get out and face the world, but Lo… they have debt. Lo they have a bleak prospects for jobs in the fields they have studied. Lo, they need more education or training and now they have run out of money … which was always supplied them in huge quantities though parents, grants or loans. So they blame someone ...  their parents, the president or God, and they band together and wail, do drugs and play video games to escape, and live one more year in their mother's basement or their own childhood bedroom.

              Only as people mature do they realize they need a consistent way to earn a living or create wealth they can depend on. How does one "earn a living" without money? Create wealth without money, goods to sell for money or services to perform for money?

              Earning a living is a very convenient way to sustain oneself and it really needs no explanation. What needs to be understood is how we can we get kids to stay in touch with themselves. How can we enable them to actually contribute to society? They have a need to fulfill a purpose and a way to fit in.

              Many suggest the barter system. This is an archaic way which harks back to prehistoric times. What is wrong with money?

              What is wrong with giving kids what they need: Freedom to pursue their interests and helps toward their own relevant purposes for the good of themselves and others?

              closely connected or appropriate to the matter at hand: pertinent, applicable, apposite, material, apropos, to the point, germane; connected, related, linked.

              What is the appropriate matter at hand?

    14. jackclee lm profile image79
      jackclee lmposted 8 days ago

      Economics, money, capital, labor are not tied to any religious beliefs or association. It is governed by human nature and behavior in society.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
        Kathryn L Hillposted 8 days ago in reply to this

        Don't worry jacklee Im, they are in political fairy land. They are just trying to get our goats. Mine is tied up very tightly to a tree stump. How about yours?

        "The world's first commodities arose from agriculture practices (crop production and raising livestock). Archaeological discoveries indicate that agriculture developed around 10,000 BC, as humans began settlements and farming. An agricultural revolution started around 8,500 BC, which led to trading commodities between settlements. As trading developed, producers and dealers looked for ways to preserve the price of their products. Factors such as weather, conflict, and supply and demand wreaked havoc on pricing. In addition, as supplies became more plentiful, storage was necessary; merchants sought ways to raise money while their product sat until being sold. This is how futures agreements began. According to Bruce Babcock, a noted commodity authority, the first recorded commodity futures trades occurred in 17th century Japan, though there is some evidence that rice may have been traded as far back as 6,000 years ago in China."

        http://www.investopedia.com/university/ … ties10.asp

      2. jackclee lm profile image79
        jackclee lmposted 8 days ago in reply to this

        This chart demonstrate our productivity by States compared to some other nations.


    15. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 days ago

      "Money, in and of itself, is nothing. It can be a shell, a metal coin, or a piece of paper with a historic image on it, but the value that people place on it has nothing to do with the physical value of the money. Money derives its value by being a medium of exchange, a unit of measurement and a storehouse for wealth. Money allows people to trade goods and services indirectly, understand the price of goods (prices written in dollar and cents correspond with an amount in your wallet) and gives us a way to save for larger purchases in the future.

      Money is valuable merely because everyone knows everyone else will accept it as a form of payment"
      http://www.investopedia.com/articles/07 … _money.asp

      Read more: The History Of Money: From Barter To Banknotes | Investopedia http://www.investopedia.com/articles/07 … z4RBowrvdE
      Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook

    16. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 days ago

      "Indeed, a major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." Milton Friedman

      "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom." Milton Friedman
      https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/auth … edman.html

      "Prices are important not because money is considered paramount but because prices are a fast and effective conveyor of information through a vast society in which fragmented knowledge must be coordinated." Thomas Sowell
      Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/auth … well.html?

      What is human nature?
      What is it? That question provides the answer.
      human nature.
      human nature
      human nature.
      sheesh. you can't change it.
      Sorry About That.

    17. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 days ago

      "And a man who is forced to work 60 hours week, at some point understands that he is being abused by the system."

      1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
        wrenchBiscuitposted 8 days ago in reply to this


        I am truly happy that Jacklee had a nice career at IBM, and I am sure you have also done well with your career. And I am serious with this expression. But there are many talented people who must work 2, and even 3 jobs simply to make ends meet. Having talent, credentials, or a degree doesn't guarantee a good career. The reason people who are born with money do so well is not necessarily because they are so talented or motivated. It is simply because they have a safety net.

        If they make a bad investment, or get arrested, or develop an alcohol or drug addiction, or can't find a job, either they or their families have enough  money so that they may start over again, and again, and again if necessary.  But a poor person does not have that luxury. A man whose parents could barely afford to send him to college only has one chance to make good, and that is still dependent on what opportunities may exist. In many cases there are no opportunties. Thus talented people who have much to offer society end up working 60 hours a week at minimum wage jobs just to keep a roof over their head. And these people have no safety net. If they make just one mistake, if they should become ill and unable to work, their life is ruined, and many are unable to recover. And for those who could not afford college, it is even worse. In the 50's and 60's a man without even a high school diploma could get a good job, save his money, buy a house, and have a life. That is no longer possible,  and today there are intelligent men and women with college degress who are living in the streets.

        There is no real need for money. Most people have something to contribute to society, and they want to participate and be part of a community. This is the natural order. But greedy men have developed a system of money so that they may subjugate the masses, and rule over them. Many of you who have retired from good jobs have accumulated material wealth, and have a comfortable standard of living. But I assure you that you have less than half as much as you would have had in a truly free society; a free society unencumbered by such a primitive and corrupt economic system.

        1. Jean Bakula profile image96
          Jean Bakulaposted 7 days ago in reply to this

          I agree that a college degree means nothing anymore. As a parent of a son now in his late 20's, he was a teacher. He got so sick of administering standardized tests to spoiled 2nd graders whose lazy parents threatened to get teachers fired if their dumb kids weren't getting "A"s or "B"'s. These parents run the schools, and get the good teachers who really want to teach fired. The good teachers, creative ones, make the lazy ones look bad. So it goes in a spiral, the parents get rid of the teachers, the teachers get rid of the superintendent of the school, and so on up the chain.

          College is the same. Anything my son learned in a state college, was all info I learned in High School. Everything is dumbed down. As an avid reader and intelligent guy, college was a waste for him, but necessary to get the paperwork. At least it was affordable in state and he has no student loans.

          We need more technical schools, not college degrees. Nobody knows how to make or fix anything.

          And pot should be legal, it ruins too many lives. To be jailed for a week, you get fired from your job, can't pay your rent, have no place to store your belongings, and before you know it, you are living on the street. I have seen it happen too many times to young people in my own family and friends, and it's not like they hurt anyone. I know that and am usually the one who tries to help them get back on their feet because they only did what everyone in the 1960s was doing. The money could help our economy.

          1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
            wrenchBiscuitposted 7 days ago in reply to this


            Those are good points and unfortunately it is all true. This is why I am especially disturbed by all of this holiday cheer that get's passed around this time of year. We see this evil manifested in the criminalization of Marijuana. We see this evil manifested in unjust laws aimed at child support, as well as unjust DUI laws. All of these laws are designed, not for the public good, but to generate revenue for the city, state, and the prison for profit system, as well as everyone else who is  riding the gravy train.

            You cannot help children by throwing their father in jail. That is absurd. I have a friend who works for the city. She has told me of numerous men who have literally been in tears telling her the same story. And the story they tell is a true story. They get laid off temporarily from work, or they suffer an illness and lose several days work, or their car breaks down and they are forced to spend money on repairs. Whatever the reason, the end result is the same. They end up in court for coming up short on their child support payments. Then they get thrown in jail. While they are in jail they lose their job, which means they can't make car payments, or even pay the rent! At that point it now becomes impossible for them to make child support payments, and then they face further court action and more incarceration. Of course, as long as the beds are full at the county jail, the cops, the lawyers, the judges, and the people who own the jail  continue to make large green.

            And it is the same with the DUI Gravy Train. Anyone who has looked at the numbers can see that more people are killed in MVC's by sober drivers than drunk drivers. That is simply a fact. If the city and state  really wanted to reduce the number of traffic fatalities they would limit the usage of automobiles and invest in public transportation. The lie being told by the government is that 50% of traffic fatalities are caused by drunk drivers. But the real number is closer to 10%. Although 10% is nothing to celebrate, it is a long way from 50%. Here is what getMadd.com has to say:

            Do drunk drivers really cause half of all traffic deaths? Not even close! As unbelievable as it sounds, the statistics from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) are grossly inflated by including many drivers who were not drunk. Also included are passengers with any sign that they were drinking and 2,000 tipsy or drunk pedestrians who are labeled as drivers. Finally, through profiling, they add a percentage of extra drivers who the police might have erroneously labeled as sober--they call this guesswork "the New Methodology". No wonder the number is so high! On top of all that, they claim that every accident is caused by the alcohol, never by speeding, bad weather, road hazards, suicide, the other driver, or any other factor...

            "...Back in the 1980’s, when drunk driving laws really were a farce, MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving) started twisting the numbers to get attention. It worked. MADD was responsible for a much needed overhaul of the DUI laws. No one noticed when alcohol-related deaths morphed into the now common phrase “Half of all traffic deaths are caused by drunk drivers.” After all MADD and the NHTSA regularly swap employees and didn’t some politician say that the ends justify the means? So what’s the problem? Support the Mothers and put the drunks in jail. It’s a no-brainer..."

    18. Will Apse profile image91
      Will Apseposted 7 days ago

      It is worth focusing on money as power, now and again. The US has just elected a man whose tax cuts will deliver even more money into the hands of those at the very top -- a million, maybe an extra million and a half dollars a year. Quite a lot of that money will go into lobbying for further tax cuts for that group. And so it will go on.

      Trump is also planning to cut inheritance tax. That tax was devised in the UK to break the power of the old aristocracy, encourage meritocracy and give talent a chance.

      Trump's legacy will be his family dynasty and a new aristocracy of wealth. It is no accident that his residences are often copies of European palaces.

      Democracy in the US is a pretty poor thing already. It will soon be entirely worthless.

    19. Solaras profile image92
      Solarasposted 7 days ago

      So this has now been moved to the holidays forum. Amusing.

      1. Jean Bakula profile image96
        Jean Bakulaposted 7 days ago in reply to this

        It didn't start this way. It began with opinions about what Thanksgiving means to various people, or if it should or does really mean anything, being all based on lies and resulting in a day of gluttony.

        1. jackclee lm profile image79
          jackclee lmposted 7 days ago in reply to this

          I apologize again for this diversion. I did not intend to continue this discussion on this forum. However, some of the ideas being presented here cannot stand unchallenged.
          I will be happy to debate one and all on other hubs that I've written over the years.
          I believe in our Constitution and a limited government based on conservative principles.
          Feel free to checkout all my hubs related to politics and some of my ideas on fixing our system.

          Here is a table of contents that contain most of my published hubs.


          Peace be with you all.
          Thank God.

        2. Solaras profile image92
          Solarasposted 7 days ago in reply to this

          This is from an contemporary account, Edward Winslow's, of the first Thanksgiving - or Giving of Thanks - in the Plimoth  landing area.  They suffered a meager first year, many of them being beyond useful years, and most having few survival skills.  The native Americans were initially amused by their incompetence, but finally lent them a hand to help them survive on this new continent.  These are the writings of a member of the immigrants, writing not for posterity, rather in a personal diary that was later discovered, published, lost again and eventually rediscovered.


          Very little is known about the 1621 event in Plymouth that is the model for our Thanksgiving. The only references to the event are reprinted below:

          “And God be praised we had a good increase… Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruit of our labors. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amongst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which they brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want that we often wish you partakers of our plenty.”

          Edward Winslow, Mourt’s Relation: D.B. Heath, ed. Applewood Books. Cambridge, 1986. p 82
          https://www.plimoth.org/learn/just-kids … ng-history

    20. Jennifer Huber profile image60
      Jennifer Huberposted 7 days ago

      Obama did what he could in his 8 years - I am in no way talking that down. However- there have been two political parties since the beginning of the 19th century,  if not before that. And every American has the right to vote, whether that was for Clinton or Trump. And Trump won. Maybe because there are many hard working, tax paying Americans who are tired of the bullshit and are ready for something else. Those of us have every right as American citizens to have voted him in. Our country needs work, and a different approah. And what is wrong in our country RIGHT NOW is not Trump's doing - why don't you put out there the things Obama didn't even come close to trying to fix? Instead of the Trump Is Evil regime, how about let the man be sworn in and begin to try and fix our country?

      1. Solaras profile image92
        Solarasposted 7 days ago in reply to this

        Sadly, he is proving himself the worst part of the problem with his cabinet picks. A bitch (and mega-donor) that wants to defund public schools and give chits to people who can afford private schools, so they pay less for private education, while fewer funds go to public education. She thinks teachers are paid too much. She is a teacher's union buster.

        His short list for the Dept of the interior includes people who are climate change deniers or oil tycoons.  The list goes on.  No one in his cabinet choices are outsiders.  It's the most radical bunch of insiders we have ever seen.  There are no checks and balances anymore.  He has reneged on every campaign promise already.  Even the wall will be a fence, which already exists by the way.

        I hope they find a way to overturn the election with their recounts.

        1. PhoenixV profile image79
          PhoenixVposted 7 days ago in reply to this

          Maybe if the teachers unions stopped giving millions to obama and hillary for the same election, for instance, maybe Joe plumber's kids could've got a better education. Why would they cover the field like that.

      2. Jean Bakula profile image96
        Jean Bakulaposted 7 days ago in reply to this

        I'm not sure whom you are addressing this rant to. Although I voted for Hillary, I am trying my best to view Trump from any positive trait I can see. As an astrologer, I even interpreted his whole chart for 10 hours to see who Trump, the person was. It is on Exemplore, and I was as neutral as possible.

        Every time he does something or gives a list of what he will do first, it seems he campaigned negatively, and now that he's briefed has realized some things can't be done the way he told his followers. He sounds mature. Then he ruins it all with a tweet that makes him sound like a sulky teen.

        I accept his win, although it is hard to reconcile that Hillary is now ahead 2 million in the popular vote. But the EC won't change, this is how it is. I hope for the best from him.

    21. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 7 days ago

      "And that is a Teflon coated system that cannot be corrupted because it affords no opportunity, or incentive for corruption. If you are unable to fill in the blanks then you certainly would not appreciate the details."wB

      In heaven there is no marriage … or money.
      One day you'll get there and finally be happy!

      So that's good. smile

    22. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 7 days ago

      The truth is, business is actually a spiritual endeavor. If you treat your employees well and pay them fairly, they willingly work and do the best they can for you. They willingly contribute and are loyal. If you don't, they leave. Its as simple as that.

      If you are a fair person and are reasonable to work with, other companies will be willing to do business with you. If you are a shyster and cheat people, you will earn a bad reputation and will not succeed. Successful businessmen are those who have built a reputation of trust and are known to have good will. If you overcharge your customer and have low quality goods or services people will not frequent your business. You will fail. Business and successful entrepreneurship requires positivity, common sense, common decency and following The Golden Rule.

      If a mistreated/underpaid employee doesn't have the gumption to leave, and find work elsewhere, they encourage the evil doers. So, who's fault is that?
      If someone accepts a job they know will not pay enough, whose fault is it that the employee is underpaid??

      1. Will Apse profile image91
        Will Apseposted 7 days ago in reply to this

        Don't know about spirituality but there have been many studies of wealth and compassion and also wealth and empathy.

        It was found that the wealthier people are, the more likely they are to be selfish.

        You can read about that stuff here: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … ompassion/

        What I found most interesting was the inability of the wealthy to read other peoples' feelings accurately. They do not need to. They tell people what to do and that is that.


    23. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 6 days ago

      Our system is not evil. It protects us from people who are not the slightest bit inclined to follow The Golden Rule.
      The reason we have the Constitution is because the founders knew the darkness of human nature. The evils perpetrated by unprincipled individuals will ALWYS be a threat as long as the world turns.

      W H Y ?
      Its the way of this world. If it were not so, wouldn't we have figured it out by now?

      So we might as well make the Constitution work.

      H O W?
      Freedom within rules, boundaries and laws of justice followed and enforced for the good of ALL.

      1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
        wrenchBiscuitposted 6 days ago in reply to this

        That's a good one Kathryn. "... It protects us from people who are not the slightest bit inclined to follow The Golden Rule..." Gee, aren't those they same people we elect every four .years?

        Elliot Spitzer: New York Gov. resigned after prostitution sex scandal in 2008.

        Anthony Weiner: Member of House of Representatives from New York City, resigned in 2011 over "sexting" scandal. He was sending women images of his penis through links on Twitter

        Bill Clinton: Needs no explanation.

        Donald Trump: "Grab 'em by the ..." among other things.

        Dennis Hastert: former speaker of the house admitted to being a pedophile.

        John Podesta:  chief of staff to President Bill Clinton, Counselor to President Barack Obama, chairman of the 2016 Hillary Clinton presidential campaign. Podesta has recently been tied to an upscale pedophile ring through emails exposed by WikiLeaks. Not only are children being sexually abused but there are reports that some are being murdered in satanic rituals.

        These people "are" the system. What did you say about the Golden Rule Kathryn?

    24. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 6 days ago

      The misrepresented themselves and we don't have intuition or discrimination to see past their facade. Or they became corrupted after a period of time. Money/power does seem to corrupt. Carreer politicians are not what the founders envisioned. Men interested in contributing to politics were to serve a term or two and then leave. They were to serve the people, not earn a living, create wealth, as the Hillbilleries did ...

      What is the solution? a working solution? one that is willfully chosen by the majority. One that everyone will be on the same page with, committed to, loyal to. What you are proposing is pretty much a religion.

      For your vision to work there would have to be devotion to community. devotion to the local community. The god of the local community would have to be worshipped.

      Communities, you will say, will not be closed. what will provide the boundaries? What will keep them contained? Some sort of spiritual loyalty.

      You can imagine how your vision might work. I can't.

    25. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 6 days ago
      1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
        wrenchBiscuitposted 6 days ago in reply to this


        Yes, I have been aware of this problem for many years. Perhaps in time you may start to understand the frustration and the anger that I feel. This has become a way of life for too long. These two excerpts, one from each article , identify the problem. The tribes must necessarily become more militant. If the government won't prosecute these white men , and if the tribal councils do not have the authority, then we must create a new paradigm for dealing with these heinous crimes against native women.  Unfortunately, there are some tribal members in positions of power who have outdated ideas, and who would take offense to any outsider who might come riding in on a white horse to save the day. And in this respect, we do not see much difference between them and their counterparts in the white world. Everybody wants to be a star.

        But of course, my mother was a woman, and so I have let my mother down. Why?  Because I have done nothing to stop the abuse of women. Oh yes! Just like most other men, if I saw a woman being abused, I would be her champion, and I would seek to subdue her assailant. But that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about we need to start being honest. If men truly cared about women the way they claim they do, we would have been protesting, and marching, and raising hell like they are doing today at Standing Rock, or like Black Lives Matter. If we cared about the rape and sexual abuse of women we would have already been out in force bringing the change; bringing the safety and security of a society where a woman can walk anywhere alone , even at night, and not feel threatened.

        Let's face it, a man will get more time in prison for robbing a bank,  than raping a woman. It is nothing less than an outrage! Money is more important in this society than the safety and the honor of a woman. And we are all at fault. Every man, every cop, every judge, every father, brother, and son. We can stop this now. But in order to do it someone has to start the ball rolling. Just like Black Lives Matter, and just like Standing Rock. Women of all races are being victimized by sexual predators, and so this is an issue that impacts us all. It's not something we should put on our "To Do" list. It needs to stop now!

        "...A study from the Justice Department found that Native American women are two and half times more likely to be raped than other women. The majority of victims said they were raped by men from outside the reservation, according to a victimization survey..."

        "...Eighty percent of the reported sexual violence against Native women is committed by white men, who do so with virtual criminal impunity because, with very few exceptions, they cannot be tried in tribal courts. Federal authorities have the authority to step in for serious crimes, like rape or murder, but often decline to prosecute crimes that have been committed in Indian Country. This jurisdictional black hole has created a climate that many describe as "open season" on Native women on reservations..."

        1. jackclee lm profile image79
          jackclee lmposted 5 days ago in reply to this

          With all your intellect and passion, I am sure you can find some way to be a positive change agent for your community. It bothers the heck out of me how some people can play the victim and refuses to help themselves. If there is one thing I wish for, is to clone the drive of immigrants to our great country and give them to the blacks, the native Americans and the whites living in inner cities public housing. They have so much going for them just by being born in this country,
          The other thing I would do if I could, is to send the youths of America overseas for 1 month free, to see what is the living conditions in the 3rd world or even the 2nd world. They will realize how good they have it here and perhaps be more grateful to God and try and lead a productive life.

          1. Let-freedom-rigng profile image60
            Let-freedom-rigngposted 5 days ago in reply to this

            Boy you really want them to know how good they have it here, don't you?

            1. jackclee lm profile image79
              jackclee lmposted 5 days ago in reply to this

              Yes I do. I have travelled all over the world for work and now for pleasure in my retirement. I speak from personal experience. Let anyone challenge what I profess. You are welcome to name another country that can surpass what we have here. Give me the data, and I will debate it. Just the facts...

          2. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
            wrenchBiscuitposted 5 days ago in reply to this


            Perhaps you'll never get it Jack; just like as a man, I will never know what it feels like to give birth to a child. Yes, there are always exceptions to the rule. Jackie Robinson helped to break the color barrier in sports. But that is a very specialized field that is not open to most white or black Americans for two good reasons: First of all there are only so many slots available on a team Secondly, the average person doesn't have that kind of natural talent.  And in the world of Business, blacks have purposely been shut out by a system of white supremacy. This is why you will see in many inner city black communities a disproportionate amount of immigrants running convenience stores. How do I know this? This can be verified in many ways.

            If you read any of the works of W.E.B Dubois, and then compare those writings with the writings and speeches of Malcolm X, and then compare that to the writings of Ida B.Wells and Frederick Douglas, and then compare that to the teaching of the Honorable Louis Farrakhan and Martin Luther King, and then look at the life of congresswoman Barbara Jean Lee,(the only congressional member to vote against the Iraq War), and then look at the life of Neil de Grasse Tyson, and then look at black musical innovators and performers  like Miles Davis.Billie Holiday, and Ella Fitzgerald, you  begin to see a picture.  And what you begin to understand is that these are all individuals from different era's and backgrounds who not only succeeded, but excelled in various occupations and endeavors. And this is only the short list. But the one thing they have in common is their African heritage. When we look at their lives and then go into the black communities all across America we find that there are any number of black men and women who are just as capable and creative as the ones I have mentioned here. But  under the present oppressive racist system, there is very little chance that a majority of blacks will realize their full potential.

            And here is the part that you and many others always miss. And you miss this part because you are in such a hurry to prove that racism is not a factor, or simply does not exist.  We see a similar sort of oppression throughout the white community as well. In fact, because whites have been the majority  for so long, there have always been more whites suffering poverty and homelessness here in the United States than any other group. You maintain that the black man overall can pull himself out of poverty. But you totally ignore the more widespread poverty, and economic hardships of working class whites. What is their excuse? Why haven't they "pulled themselves up". Here at a local food bank in Florida the majority of people you will see waiting in line for free groceries are white people. Also, even in white neighborhoods here in Florida you will find that many businesses and convenience stores are run by immigrants from India and Pakistan. At one point I was working as an entertainer at three different bars in the same county that were owned by immigrants from India. Around here we call it the Indian Mafia.  It is not hard to find a poor, or homeless white person in my community. But many of the immigrants seem to be doing quite well. Are the white people also victims of white supremacy?  No, they are not.

            What we have here are two parts , or two different levels of the same oppressive Capitalist system. The gatekeepers only allow a certain number of whites to succeed beyond basic survival. But because the white supremacists cannot allow the blacks to gain economic parity, or to dominate the market and the political sphere , they have lowered the glass ceiling for minorities even lower. We are involved in a class war, and a race war simultaneous. This is why so many get confused and so divided. The entire working class is being oppressed and played against one another along racist and sexist lines by a ruthless and greedy ruling elite. You are a champion of the Constitution. But American Democracy was hijacked long ago, and there has been no real democracy here since before Woodrow Wilson. Criminals are in control of this government, and these are the true enemies of the people. You have some good ideas, and I believe you are sincere. But we cannot cure a disease by focusing on the symptoms . A man suffering cancer can find relief to a certain degree with a steady supply of morphine. But he will never be cured until the cancer is cut out and removed from the body.

            1. jackclee lm profile image79
              jackclee lmposted 5 days ago in reply to this

              Except then how do you explain the successes of Nigerian Americans? They have excelled here being black. There education levels surpasses those of whites. You cannot use race as the factor, as hard as you try. Look it up for yourself. I did not make up the stats. It is a cultural difference that explain the results. You point to the successes of blacks but you missed a few. How about Dr. Carson and Justice Thomas. I suggest you read their biography. They come from humble and poor beginnings. They succeeded because they had a strong family support system. These are often ignored by the liberal progressives who belief it is society and govenment that is a strong influence. In fact, it is individuals and family that matters most.

              1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                wrenchBiscuitposted 5 days ago in reply to this

                You are presenting a strawman. You are suggesting that Nigerians are supermen, and that every Nigerian who comes to this country will surely succeed. But you are forgetting one very important factor when considering immigrants who come here and do well in business. Have you ever taken a flight from New York to L.A. or New York to Chicago?  Or a bus, or a train? You worked at IBM Jack, and you made good money. You are used to having money in the bank. I suggest that if you so decided you could buy yourself a ticket to Standing Rock and spend the weekend getting beat up by the police if you so desired.  But travel takes money Jack, especially if you are coming from Nigeria. And business skills also require education, which costs money. And last but not least, in order to start a business you must have the start up capital to get things rolling. Now, let's add it all up Jack:

                Money for education + Money for travel + Money to start a business = I am Rich!

                That's right Jack, these are wealthy people who are coming to America to start businesses. These are not  poor starving Nigerians who never had the benefit of an education, and who hitched a ride here on a banana boat! And it is the same with many immigrants who come here and are successful. They have the necessary capital needed to jumpstart their future. Money goes to money Jack, and it always has. Sure, a handful of poor people have throughout the years been lucky and made it to the top, but there are also a handful who have won the lottery. And as far as Ben Carson is concerned, he may be an Uncle Tom, but in spite of that he is a very intelligent man. You have to be in order to be a brain surgeon.

                But everybody isn't born that smart. Anybody can get an education, but people can't make themselves any smarter than they already are. Everyone is not born with the raw materials needed to become a Ben Carson. So what is the take away from all of this? Are we to decide that individuals who are not born with high IQ's should be penalized with poverty for the rest of their life? But that is all irrelevant. I suggest that if every black person and every white person  in America was twice as smart as Ben Carson that we would still see a disproportionate number of blacks below the poverty level, as well as a large number of poor whites . And that's because the system is designed this way. It's a pyramid, a Ponzi Scheme, and a majority must necessarily be at the bottom in order to support the few who maintain supremacy  at the top. Do your research, and get back to me.

                1. jackclee lm profile image79
                  jackclee lmposted 5 days ago in reply to this

                  It is not a strawman argument. We are talking about a whole class of people from one nation in Africa.  Their culture is very similar to my. We value education. The distribution is what I am talking about. You are smart enough to know that everything has a normal distribution curve. Take any attribute, whether it be income, IQ, or height or weight... among the population, you will get a normal distribution or bell curve. The shift in bell curve from one group to the next is what I am addressing. Among any group, you will find people in the upper percentile and the middle and the low. However, in some ethnic groups, the curve is shifted upward due to the culture of that group. I attribute that to difference in value and not race or skin color.

                  For your information, I was not born rich. If you read my autobiography, you know that I grew up in Taiwan. We did not have running water or flushed toilets. I immigrated to America in 1961 when I was 10 years old. i did not speak English. I started working as a paper boy around age 12 and has not stopped working till age 65 when I retired. I had a good education from CCNY. It was free back then. I did not rack up a huge education loan debt. I got an engineering degree and worked for IBM for 28 years. Later on, I worked at a non-profit agency to help people with disability to live indeprndent lives. I follow a conservative life style by saving and hardwork. I am volunteering at my local Archives to help preserve our culture and history. My participation here on HP is my choice. It is one of my ways to give back and help others. You can choose to listen to my advice or not. But don't assume you know what I am just as I make no assumption about you. I take it at your word who you are and what you experienced. I am merely trying to help.

                  1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                    wrenchBiscuitposted 5 days ago in reply to this


                    wrenchBiscuit proclaims: "I Have Named You"

                    You speak like a lawyer , and I suggest that you would have excelled in that profession. Your "curves" do not address the issue of money Jack. The Nigerians  have to have money to cross the water. They don't paddle here in a row boat. Furthermore, your repeated attempts to denigrate black people fall apart when the reader realizes that there are more poor white people in the United States than any other group. Percentages and bell curves do not pertain to this argument. If you are suggesting that Nigerians are somehow more resourceful than black people in this country then it only follows that they are also more resourceful and creative than the tens of millions of poor and working class whites as well.

                    You see Jack, it is ridiculous to focus on what you are focusing on. For the sake of argument, if ten Irishmen immigrated here and 7 out of the ten were unemployed, and 5 out of the 7 ended up in jail, it doesn't give ten million white Americans who are unemployed and  5 million white Americans who are in jail a free pass!  Percentages and proportions are weapons of racism.  Now you are messin' with the Kid !  I have been challenging and fighting racists since I was 6 years old.  And I am keenly aware that many people are racist without even knowing. I have been up and down all of these roads; all of these apologies and ridiculous arguments designed to promote the notion of white supremacy.  I am supreme Jack, not only because I am intelligent, but because I have a heart and soul, and because I know that it is foolish to judge a man, and especially a race of people  who have been struggling to get up for over 500 years, when the white racist is still standing with his foot squarely in the middle of  their back. I like you Jack. But it would be a good idea for you not to take your arguments out in the street.

                    Anyone who celebrates Thanksgiving is necessarily a racist.  That's because in order to celebrate Thanksgiving an adult must consciously ignore the historical context of Thanksgiving, and the criminals who have promoted it. And to ignore such evil one would have to consider the victims to be unworthy of consideration, thus placing the celebrant in a position of superiority. And when we look at the definition of racism we understand that a feeling of superiority is a key element. I am not Jewish, but because I do not feel superior to a Jew, I would not celebrate a holiday that glorified Nazism. I simply wouldn't do it out of respect. But when someone feels they are racially superior, they do not respect or consider the feelings,  or emotions of those they considered to be inferior. There is no where to run ... and there is no where to hide. I have named you all.

                    1. jackclee lm profile image79
                      jackclee lmposted 5 days ago in reply to this

                      You continue to focus on race and that is not what I am saying. I agree there are millions of poor whites as well but that is not my focus. There are 10 times more whites than blacks in this country. Naturally there will be many more poor whites. What I am proposing does not depend on race or skin color. It is a philosophy that is color blind. The philosophy of conservatism. Please check my hub on this. It outlines why it is the best path to prosperity for anyone willing to try.

                    2. jackclee lm profile image79
                      jackclee lmposted 5 days ago in reply to this

                      By the way, my experience tells me when someone loses an argument, the "racist" charge comes out. You are wrong on all counts. I know who I am and I am no racist. Moreover, pople celebrate Thanksgiving to thank God for his blessings and all of them are not racists. You are loosing it. I have pity on you.

                    3. PhoenixV profile image79
                      PhoenixVposted 5 days ago in reply to this

                      Most cultures or people have had thanksgivings or harvest related holidays for thousands of years. I believe it more likely they brought their holidays with them. Harvest ceremonies probably date back before the Indians crossed the Bering from their origination of or from Eurasia

                2. jackclee lm profile image79
                  jackclee lmposted 5 days ago in reply to this

                  By the way, I would love to read your auto biography. What have you done with your life? You seem very intelligent and obviously have great passion. What have you done with all that energy? Besides being bitter about this country and the evil white man...

                  My experience is very different. Not just me personally but the people I met at work, at church and at sporting events. I came across many people of all races, creed and they all have their unique story. Perhaps I have been lucky but I doubt it. The key to my success is owed to my father. He was smart enough to risk everything and immigrated to America and brought his family over after 4.5 years.
                  That was the one difference between me and my cousins that stayed in Taiwan.

        2. Solaras profile image92
          Solarasposted 5 days ago in reply to this

          Hi WB: Who is the girl in the photo?  Do you know her tribe or area she is from?  I have a friend that looks just like her, her mother too.  Her grandmother was adopted, and was rumored to be Native American.  Any info would be helpful. I sent this photo to her, and now she wants to do a DNA test. lol

          1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
            wrenchBiscuitposted 5 days ago in reply to this


            Her name is Brandon Merrill, born in Colorado and raised in Wyoming, most likely Cheyenne. She stars in the movie "Shanghai Noon", and has modeled for Vogue and other publications. She is also a famous rodeo champion!

            1. Solaras profile image92
              Solarasposted 5 days ago in reply to this

              Thank you - Very cool!

    26. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
      Kathryn L Hillposted 5 days ago

      In the grand scope of things, Effort and Intention matter in
      this life time and the rest until we no longer wish to be in the game.
      If we are not required to practice our strength, humble as they are, grand as they are, noble as they are or not, the practice matters. Without a sense of urgency that comes from the desire to be free and independent / dependent on ourselves alone… for that alone gives us power… we become indolent. without goals life is worthless.
      Yes, we need help to life from others, but tough love in the end and a wide scope toward success is vital to the human psyche.

      1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
        wrenchBiscuitposted 5 days ago in reply to this

        I believe that "Intention" is a very powerful thing. The Christian Philosopher Emmanuel Swedenborg claimed in his famous work "Heaven and Hell", that he was taken in the spirit and shown the different levels of Heaven and Hell. It is fascinating reading. He claims that evil spirits are not sent to the lower 'Hells" but instead move toward them willingly. According to Swedenborg our Intension's are manifested outwardly in the spirit , as opposed to being hidden in the flesh. Thus, when a spirit with evil Intentions seeks to enter the outer Heaven it is seen by those that dwell there as hideous and disfigured, as such a spirit cannot hide it's true intention as many will do here in the Earth. Consequently, the evil spirit, of it's own accord, will move toward the lower vibrations of Hell until it reaches a level where it can enjoy camaraderie with those spirits of a similar nature. In this respect the process appears to be similar to what occurs here in the Earth, save for the fact we can hide our intentions here.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image86
          Kathryn L Hillposted 5 days ago in reply to this

          Heaven help those who try to hide their evil intentions, as more and more develop greater and greater intuition.

          1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
            wrenchBiscuitposted 5 days ago in reply to this

            I agree. I have that ability to a certain degree. For instance, I have for some time been able to see the evil intention of Hillary Clinton. Of course, I believe that at first I was alerted in the usual ways by stories I had heard. And it was the stories that made me look at her more closely. But after a while  I began to actually see her evil intentions manifested outwardly, which seemed perfectly natural until I started to reflect on it. The woman is pure evil.  I have no love for Trump either, and I would prefer that he would go far away somewhere, but in spite of all the nasty things he has said, I don't see the kind of evil that I see in Hillary Clinton.

          2. jonnycomelately profile image86
            jonnycomelatelyposted 5 days ago in reply to this

            Maybe one way of viewing that saying, "by their fruits ye shall know them," refers primarily to true intensions.   If they are false intensions, in other words a sham or a lie, then one will see that lie ultimately exposed.