Abortion Is Murder!
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Well...now that I have your attention! I needed a bit of time off after my Everyone Should Have Guns Hub to recoup and come up with another idea for a Hub. I was driving quite a ways, and as usual I had the radio tuned to NPR.
It just so happens that the topic of conversation was abortion, which, as you all know, is a highly controversial topic. Now, I have my views on the matter and I will share them, but the reason I decided to write about this is because I heard one of the best arguments I have ever heard in the abortion debate.
It went something like this:
"You always hear the pro-lifers saying abortion is murder, but you never hear any of them calling for a mandatory prison sentence for the woman who aborts the fetus."
I'm no lawyer, but I can tell the difference between a pre-meditated murder and an unplanned murder; but if you do not know the difference, here is the definition of a first degree murder:
In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim.
An abortion is planned. An abortion is premeditated. If pro-lifers feel that abortion is murder, then it should be treated as a first degree murder right?
My Exposure to Abortion
I have had no personal exposure to abortion, but I have lived directly across the street from a Planned Parenthood.
I will say this...I have never been more annoyed on my weekends than when I lived there. Without fail, each and every Saturday and Sunday morning, protesters stood behind the ridiculously needed white lines drawn on the sidewalk, with picket signs yelling and screaming at the poor women walking into the building. (video much less aggressive than what I witnessed)
There were men, women, children (being brainwashed and dragged to this nonsense), and priests! Yes, priests...All of whom were taking part in the verbal bashing of these perfectly innocent women, who are taking advantage of something perfectly legal. And no, I don't mean taking advantage in the sense that they are using it to live a promiscuous lifestyle. I mean they were making use of the resources that are available.
C'mon though! Priests! Aren't they supposed to spread God's LOVE? I better stop before I digress...
What We Can Agree On
In this video of a debate in which President Obama was asked about abortion, he elegantly worked his way into a "what we can all agree on" answer.
Proper Education - In today's day and age it is irresponsible to teach abstinence as the best possible method of contraception. You can tell a kid a billion times not to have sex, but with the TV, the magazines, the movies, the books and the peer pressure, they will have sex anyway!
It is nothing but appropriate to teach our youth about the proper forms of contraception so that women and girls do not find themselves in a position that they need to make the abortion decision. Proper education can lead to fewer teen pregnancies and ultimately fewer unwanted pregnancies.
What I Think
I think that Sarah Palin is an IDIOT. She displays absolutely zero logic in this video. She would "coach" a poor young lady who was raped by her father to keep the child rather than to have it aborted. First of all, this is absolutely disgusting, and second of all, the child would likely have some serious physical or mental issues!
Now, let's get into what I think of the abortion issue.
I Am Pro Choice. I firmly believe that not a single person or entity should be able to tell an individual what they can and cannot do to or with their own body. If a person wants to tattoo and pierce their entire body, they should be able to. If a person wants to pump themselves full of drugs until they die, they should be able to. And, if a person wants to have an abortion, they should be able to. It is my body, and I should be able to do whatever I want to it...legally. Government intervention in an individual's lifestyle is flat out wrong, as long as that lifestyle is not endangering other people directly.
Therefore, I am pro choice. A woman should have the opportunity, without the chance of ridicule, to have their unwanted pregnancy aborted.
There Should Be A Time Limit. I believe that the decision to have an abortion should be made before the fetus is considered viable, which in the US is at 23 weeks. As of right now, this is the best scientific method of deciding when a fetus is considered a baby. I will change my opinion on this when the science proves otherwise, but a woman should have the opportunity to abort the fetus until it can survive independently (not in the womb). Five to six months is plenty of time for a woman to decide whether or not she wants to keep the child.
Rapes. The age-old argument for the pro choice side is that if a woman is raped, she should be able to have an abortion. It is an age-old argument because this is nothing but logical. Any woman that becomes impregnated due to a rape should, without a doubt, have that option. Not only is it an unwanted child, but if born, it will be a scarred child who will inevitably have issues because of who they are. I would never ever wish rape upon anyone, but if Sarah Palin believes a woman or girl should keep a child that is the product of paternal rape, then she should definitely stop talking for two seconds and put herself in that position. How could anyone with half a brain think that this is okay?
Overpopulation Versus Adoption. Abortion has the ability to help to problems. Unfortunately it can only choose one. Abortions help to keep the population from growing at an even faster exponential rate than it already does. If we were to make abortion illegal, there would be over one million more people in this country each year. (and that number can only increase) In a world with depleting resources, we cannot afford to keep adding these kinds of numbers.
On the other hand, there are plenty of people who are incapable of having a child of their own and would love the opportunity to adopt. Making abortion illegal would mean that more children would be available for adoption. It would make many families happy, and would be an option for the mother of unwanted pregnancies.
In my opinion, the 14,000 babies given up for adoption each year is plenty. The overpopulation problem is much worse than a family not being able to adopt a child. There are also alternatives to adopting in this country. Couples may go to other countries to adopt a child, or they may try in vitro fertilization. If nothing works, that is sad, but it is also the cards that you have been dealt, and you must live with that.
Have The Child To Teach A Lesson. The idea that because a girl lived promiscuously she should be taught a lesson and should have the baby is asinine. A child should NEVER be used as a lesson. First of all, it is likely that the girl was young and uneducated, and punishing her with a child is going to ruin her life. She will never be able to grow up normally with her peers and will lose out on the social development.
On top of the mother being ruined, the child will also have a much more difficult life, and has a much larger chance of behaving in the same way as the mother.The chance that this child leads a so called "normal" life is far less than the wanted child of a happy couple.
Disclaimer
I of course have to put this in here so that people won't attack me for not respecting a people's right to speak freely. I respect that everyone has the right to their opinion, and their right to voice it. This is my opinion. My only real problem with all of this is the people who protest like morons. It is hurtful and disrespectful to the girls and women who are doing something legal. It is obviously not an easy decision to have to make, and any added criticism just makes it worse. Everyone should really just mind their own business and stop worrying about other people.
A woman's right to choose does not include choosing to kill a baby. The choice is to abort a fetus. The real debate here is when the fetus becomes an actual child, but until the science figures this out, I will stand with the 23 weeks.
I welcome your comments, and look forward to the debate that will inevitably ensue. (Hopefully!)
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Comments
C. - ooofff. Touchy subject. I'm neither pro nor anti. Not because I can't make up my mind. I can in most things. More because there's times when the use of abortion is chosen as an alternative contraceptive method. Then there are occasions (as you've documented) where the choice is down to morals - would you want to know your conception is the result of rape?
Adoption. Hmmmm. Having a child adopted does not guarentee a happy ending either. I've worked with adopted children. Given up instead of the mother choosing abortion. The children had crossed my path by way of being adopted by abusive parents - that had been found out and the children had been subsequently removed from their care.
I'll stop. This is one of those topics with no clear answer.
Thanks for the comment Frog...I agree there is no clear answer and the debate will go on forever.
I don't think that a woman would choose abortion as a method of contraceptive. I think that a woman may be careless in her lifestyle and resort to abortion, but I don't think anyone wakes up and says, "Eh, if I get pregnant, I'll go have surgery."
Thanks for stopping by!
When i was young (16) i told in an interview that was time to forget abou that "old thoughts" and was time to legalize the abortion!
Then i grew up!
Then i met women that did abortions just because was the "easy way"
My opinion now is ,,, the abortion is accetable when there is de dangerous of a "broken" child or in cases of rape!
Information is all over... in our days a woman get pregnant if she wants... then she has to take the responsability of her "mistake"
for me there is no mistake... no forgivness... its a life... lets not ruin a new life!!!!
C.Ferreira-Just to add fuel to the fire, what about the boy/man who is involved with each of these unwanted pregnancies? Yes, I know the final decision is up to each girl/women, that fact can't be changed. But why is a finger always pointed at the female for being promiscuous. If the girl has to face the life long psychological and physical pain (and shame) of having an abortion, I think the male involed should have to stand right behind the doctor as the procedure is done. Maybe that would help slow down the number of unwanted pregnancies.
It takes two to tango!
If we only lived in a perfect world.
Thanks for the comment Peter....
Tricia...I fully agree with you. My intent was not to say that women are the only promiscuous beings. Clearly men are the same or worse!
I think forcing the male to stand in on the operation would be a brilliant idea! Guys should definitely share the burden for their mistakes.
I 100% agree with you that Sarah is an idiot... I bet you if she was raped by her father at age 15, there is no way, come hell or high that she would have kept that baby. She's sitting nice and cushy and her comments is shocking. Worst of all is, she is a politician.. boo-ha. She probably grew up very comfy. Bet you she hasn't vivited or spoken to any 15yr old that got raped by a father, she's a disgusting... I dont even wana mention names, I might be banned from hubpages.
I understand that she approves insest!!!
thanks m.a.d....She certainly is a brainless bafoon. Its amazing that people still like her after she was able to share her opinions with the world. Good thing they didn't win....we'd be screwed.
Cool!
You stopped my heart, but then I read it and you remain the sensitive evolved man I so admire. I'm always surprised that everyone assumes unwanted pregnancies are the result of careless or unprotected sex or only a problem for single people. No one can possibly know the situation or sit in judgement of anyone who makes this choice. It is SO personal.
Kim...I'm glad you read it after seeing the title!
You're right...it is extremely personal and a decision likie that should be left to the woman and in some cases the man involved.
And yes, unwanted pregnancies can happen even with the use of contraceptives. Good point!
By the way....you parents are the best. We had such a good meal last weekend!
C.Ferreira -- thank you for such a well-written and informative article -- it is always great to hear first-hand accounts of what transpires outside Planned Parenthood clinics. I, too, am pro-choice. As a gay man, I am only too well aware of how intrusive the government can be with respect to interference in my personal life. Up until 2003, I could have been prosecuted in 14 states for having consensual sex in private settings with another adult man. I emphasize that these 14 states punished consensual sexual activity between adults acting entirely in private settings. In 1986, the US Supreme Court handed down a grotesque decision (Bowers v. Hardwick, 478 U.S. 186 (1986)) permitting the states to criminalize gay sex, even between consenting adults acting in private. The US Supreme Court explicitly and bluntly reversed this decision in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003) -- something that the Court very, very seldom does. Usually, the Court undermines decisions with which it no longer agrees by neglecting them and opening up new lines of constitutional analysis that lead to different results. In Lawrence, the Court acknowledged that it had done the gay community a grave harm in Bowers, and the Court explicitly declared that "Bowers was not correct when it was decided, and it is not correct today. It ought not to remain binding precedent. Bowers v. Hardwick should be and now is overruled."
I do not know when a fetus becomes a human being. Because I do not know this, I have no business making this judgment for others, particularly for women. I cannot become pregnant, and I cannot even begin to imagine the trauma of an unwanted pregnancy. I actually believe that this is an issue that falls outside the right of men to legislate. I realize that this is an extreme position and I know that many people will disagree with me very strongly.
Like you, I fall back to viability as the touchstone of choice.
I also believe that abortion is a tragedy. I realize that this may seem contradictory, but I don't think that it is contradictory.
I am appalled by accounts of women being harassed, shouted at, and having to absorb torrents of obscenity when availing themselves of an option that is legal, yet tragic.
Keep writing!
PHILIP CHANDLER
I think you are entirely wrong. The fetus is human..nothing else comes out of woman when she is delivering. The fetus is alive, it has a heartbeat and it has everything it needs within the first 4 weeks of pregnancy (usually before the woman even knows she is pregnant). Regarding viability...a newborn would not be able to survive on its own without another person so would they be subject to that test and be in danger of being killed. Abortion is taking an innocent childs life. In this day and age with all of the contraceptives out there, there really is no excuse.
And just so you know, I had an unplanned pregnancy and had my son. I've also known several people who were the result of rape and they too are glad to be alive. Personally, I think that the person who actually does the abortion should be prosecuted whether that is the doctor or mother.
Well well well, here we are again...Since I am old (over 45) and remember well the babies found in dumpsters, at gravesites, all over the place because abortion was illegal, and since I had one in 1980 I think I am qualified to unequivocally say "Thank God I didn't have to be punished for my error by having the child that would have had a horrendous life with their poverty sticken mother, Thank God I had a choice and no one who had no clue what I was going through make that decision for me as it was a life altering one and I certainly would not give someone else that kind of power over MY life, Thank God my parents were compassionate understanding individuals with open minds and open hearts, Thank God I am not responsible for bringing yet ANOTHER unwanted child into this world". Now that having been said, science has made it perfectly clear and it is a fact a FETUS cannot survive outside the mothers womb before a certain time. Certainly NOT at 16 weeks or sooner. If it is born, it will die. that is a given, so an abortion prior to this time is not "killing a baby". Cells splitting and dividing and the size of my pinky nail is not a baby. There is a reason scientists refuse to call it that. I remain someone who believes that everyone has a right to their opinion but honestly, unless you been there....
Philip...thank you for the comment. It is nothing but apalling when women are beraded with insults and obscenities going into these clinics.
These people should be ashamed of themselves.
Brie..thanks for the read! I appreciate you joining in on the conversation.
I have to say that a fetus is VERY different than a baby. It is a proven fact that a fetus under around 23 weeks cannot support itself. Obviously a baby cannot survive on its own without some kind of intervention be it a mother or a machine, but when I say it can't support itself...I mean it has an extremely low chance of surviving no matter what, if the child is born.
Accidents happen. Contraceptives are not 100% effective, so until they are...there are excuses for unwanted pregnancies. I agree that there should be very few unwanted pregnancies, but it is unfair to say that there is no excuse.
As far as prosecuting the Dr. or the Mother (whichever performs the procedure)...that would be ludicris. Abortion is legal and nobody should be prosecuted for a personal life decision. But you are indeed the first person that I have ever heard say that someone should be prosecuted for abortion, which was the reason I wrote the Hub!
Thanks again....please come back and continue the conversation.
Moon...thanks for the input. I am glad and proud of you for making a mature and responsible decision as hard as that must have been.
I somewhat agree that unless you've been there you really can't form a solid opinion. I would say that unless you've been there it is impossible to feel any kind of personal connection to a subject matter. An opinion can be formed of any subject with research and information.
Since abortion has hit close to home for me very recently, I've had to re-evaluate my feelings on the subject, and it hasn't been easy. But I do know one thing for sure. Aborting up to 23 weeks is wrong. I had a stillborn baby at 21 weeks and she was a fully formed baby, no way could she be called anything but. Just because they aren't viable outside the womb, does not mean they are not living beings.
lafenty....thanks for the comment.
When do you propose is an appropriate time to abort? I'm sorry for your situation, but a fetus is not fully formed at 21 weeks. That isn't possible.
Check out my hub Trash Can Girl Babies which looks at the murder of girl foetuses in societies where boy babies are valued.
In my individual logic, abortion is contradiction of life. Before science and abortion was around, we had "birth". This is another great example how our technology is our worst enemy.
We do not use science to get pregnant in most cases, yet we use science to abort pregnancy.
When I was in college (2003-2007) I was very good friends with a young woman who used abortion as her only form of birth control. When I asked her why, she told me that condoms made the sex not as pleasurable, and she couldn't take the pill for some reason or another. Suffice it to say she had 3 abortions during our freshman year. One actually went wrong. She had been carrying twins but the doctor didn't realize that so he only removed one. She got really sick and had to go back for another surgery. While I doubt very many girls think of abortion as their go-to method of contraception, it most definitely happens.
I have to say that I wish there were never any abortions. At the same time I wish that there were never any unwanted children. I have worked with children who were unwanted and neglected who actually do wish they had not been born. It is very sad. I have never spoken to an aborted fetus, but I am sure some of them would say they are pretty pissed they didn't get a chance at life just because mom and dad sucked. Although, then again, I have never spoken to any of the semen I have flushed, but I can not imagine any of them having a right to be pissed at me. (joking~kinda) The real answer here is figuring out ways to completely end unwanted pregnancy... and that is going to be done by science!
Craig~ You know my opinion about "overpopulation." It is clearly a stupid reason to keep people from being alive. If we are so worried about overpopulation than why don't we just start rounding up anyone who is so old he/she can no longer work and get rid of them? Overpopulation is only a problem because we mismanage the earth's resources and allow them to be hoarded by a few individuals who artificially keep them scarce to drive up price, even at the expense of millions of lives.
Tricia~ if women don't want the blame for keeping/aborting a fetus than they should not demand to get to make the choice. If the man always got to make the choice than I bet NO women would ever be blamed for an abortion. Also I wonder if women getting all the blame has something to do with promiscuity being "wired" in to the male brain. Supposedly it is something we can not help. While women on the other hand are supposed to be more discerning and picky about who they mate with because "in the wild" their cost is so much higher, per pregnancy, than a man's is.
Here is my main qualm with abortion. The United States was formed based on three unalienable rights "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness". The first of these is LIFE. Once those two gametes have combined to form something that could if left alone grow to become a living person, then do we really have the right to stop it? Obviously this also depends on whether you give a hoot what some old men from hundreds of years ago thought should be our basic rights. Personally I don't know that we should care any more. Perhaps every generation needs to decide for themselves what basic human rights ought to be. Those aborted fetuses almost certainly would have become living people had they been left alone, so if life is our first right, then does anyone have the right to deny this to anything that has the chance? Even a horribly abused and neglected, totally unwanted child could potentially grow up to cure cancer or become the president right? This debate gets away from "is it alive yet or not?" and delves in to the question "could it ever be alive?" According to our founding fathers if it could become alive than no one has the right to stop that because life is a basic right. Of course that right is given to you by your creator (according to the founding fathers). Since I don't believe in God I would say your parents are your creators and if they don't believe you have the right to life unless they say so... well then you're shoot out of luck. It would certainly seem that our generation and the boomer generation think that this is more the case. Or perhaps it's that "pursuit of happiness" which these 2 generations have decided is the more important right. After all perhaps the right to happiness of someone who is alive trumps the right of something that could become alive.
Not sure, but certainly a fun topic to play devils advocate against either side. Both sides have very good arguments for and against them.
"Tricia~ if women don't want the blame for keeping/aborting a fetus than they should not demand to get to make the choice. If the man always got to make the choice than I bet NO women would ever be blamed for an abortion. Also I wonder if women getting all the blame has something to do with promiscuity being "wired" in to the male brain. Supposedly it is something we can not help. While women on the other hand are supposed to be more discerning and picky about who they mate with because "in the wild" their cost is so much higher, per pregnancy, than a man's is."
Dan: That's a total, male, cop-out.
Wow, you are brave for going here. Thank you for doing it though.
I'm even older than Moonchild, so I too remember how it was when abortion was illegal and it was incredibly ugly. Women still had abortions, they just were more likely to die from them--so the fetus was aborted and the mother too. Or, as has been pointed out, women left babies in dumpsters, or tried to abort the baby themselves and bled to death.
What bothers me about the prolife position though (besides that, which is enough, really) is that it isn't logically consistent. You'd expect that a person who truly believes life begins at conception would, for instance, hold a funeral for a miscarriage--and if you're going to do that, which you should (if you believe life truly begins at conception), then you should also inspect the contents of each menstrual period a woman has to insure that no fertilized eggs were discarded, and no two or three week zygotes were discarded--because that happens ALL the time and women don't even know it! Why aren't we searching for very tiny dead babies so we can give them proper funerals?
See, I say stuff like that and Pro-Lifers get disgusted with me, but if you're going to make these claims, then take them to their logical conclusions. And if you're not going to take your beliefs to that level, then, you know, shut up.
I had a miscarriage at 37 and you'd have thought I lost an earring, not a baby--and it wasn't just liberals and pro-Choicers being insensitive and stupid about it either.
Anyway, I better shut up myself--I'm going on and on. Basically I agree with you. We're on the same page with this. Thanks.
I believe that abortion has become such a controversial issue in our society because people truly use it as birth control. What do you say to the person who had 5 abortions because she just doesn't want to use birth control? I believe that even though it is considered a fetus at 23 weeks, it still has a heartbeat and can move before that. Science or no science, it is life. If we want to talk about whether it can sustain itself on its own, lets look at all the people surviving on tubes, in comas and discuss if they should be taken off to let them die. That would control population, right?
Adoption is always an option and there are so many people out there who are waiting for adoptions, I've seen them and known many people willing who are on waiting lists! God created these living "fetuses" and I believe that He has a purpose for all of them.
Pgrundy, as for checking through menstrual cycles and miscarriages, that's just stupid. That's not a choice. There is no need for a funeral if you don't know a fetus has died. What a weird idea.
On that note, I do not believe that there should be people picketing outside abortion clinics, but find other ways to support their cause. Embarassing people and shouting at them is not helping them. It's not the way God would like us, as human beings, to behave. If people who believe in pro-life want to make a difference, find another way. Show God's love, not disgust.
craig. you are a typical liberal man. If someone disagrees with you, you call them an idiot. first you say carrie prejean is an idiot for saying marriage is between a man and a woman. the view the majority of americans believe, that also includes the president, vice president, and the senate majority leader. Now you call sarah palin an idiot. You may not agree with her views but do you know anything about her or about how she does as a governor? Guess what state has the lowest tax burden in the country? Guess what governor has the highest approval rating in the country? You just cannot call people idiots because you disagree with them.
Believe it or not I have 0 opinion on Abortion.If it prevents someone from taking my tax dollars via welfare, im all for it. The reason why people think abortion is murder is because of their religious beliefs. According the most recent gallop/usa today polls. The majority of Americans are against abortion, 51%.
Last point is the issue you have with protesting anti-abortion activist. Are you against people protesting the Iraq war, Global Warming, or George W. Bush's policies? I am not against any protest as long as it is peaceful. It is every American's 1st Amendment's right to have a peaceful protest.
Dani, if you think it is wrong for people to protest outside abortion clinics, as long as it is peaceful, then you are against the 1st amendment.
I don't necessarily think protesting wrong, but I disagree with people who are not peaceful about it and I've seen protests that have violent tendencies. That is the point I was getting at. I don't disagree with protests at all!!! 1st amendment was created for a reason and I totally agree with it.
As for Sarah Palin being an idiot. I totally agree with you, John. You can't call people idiots just because you don't agree with them. I don't know Sarah Palin's successes and approvals, but there is no reason to call her an idiot.
John...I didn't call Palin an idiot because I disagree with her. I called her an idiot because she is one. Have you ever heard her speak!? Either way, thats besides the point here. She is an idiot for thinking that it is a girl being raped by her father should keep the child should she be impregnated. That is just stupid...liberal, conservative, psychotic, or whatever. The child will have nothing but issues.
I'm not against protests, but I am against protests in the face of the people they are protesting. It is one thing to stand outside the whitehouse and protest the president where he can either see you from afar or just ignore it altogether (which is most likely the case). It is quite another thing to be yelling in a woman's face as she goes into an abortion clinic. Peaceful or not, nobody should be subjected to that.
Dani...Hey!
I think that we should talk about the people living on tubes and comas or in a vegetative state. If a person has no function then what is the point of keeping them alive? Some function is good enough for me, but if they literally are just sitting on a machine to keep them alive, we probably should pull the plug!
I do agree with you about the whole menstrual cycle thing. It would be pretty pointless to search for something that isn't there or nobody knows about. It is not a choice when that happens and is not similar in any way here. Sorry Pgrundy!
And to answer you questions, "What do you say to the person who had 5 abortions because she just doesn't want to use birth control?" You say to her...you're an IDIOT, and then get her some help. She needs counseling and most likely a new brain. I know there are girls out there that do this, as Dan has pointed out, but I highly doubt that there are many. In this situation, the guy bears some responsibility too! Wear a frigin condom!
Oh and one more thing....
Sarah Palin is an Idiot! I don't agree with 99% of what she says, but have you ever seen her talk or give an interview? She can't speak clearly or string together a whole sentence. It boggles my mind that she is where she is today.
How many speeches have you heard from her man? If you say all you heard from her was youtube speeches than you are an idiot. youtube speeches are not a reliable source because they can be distorted. Did you see her in the vice-president debate? I don't call Barack Obama an idiot or Joe Biden an idiot, and I disagree with 99% of what they believe in. Obama ran an ingenious campaign. He is very well educated. Joe Biden must be an idiot too because of what he says. Even Obama's aide stated Biden has to shut his mouth because of what he says. In fact Biden has been known for decades for making Gaffes.
So anyone who disagrees with you 99% of the time is an idiot? Are you calling me an idiot?
Do you have any debt Craig? Can you balance your own budget? Sarah Palin can balance the State of Alaska's budget. So if you have any debt at all, you are more of an idiot than she is.
You still did not answer my question, are you for or against protesting the Iraq war or Global Warming? Are you against all kinds of protesting?
John, do you read what I write or you just guessing?
I have seen Palin speak PLENTY and this is the only youtube speech I have watched of hers actually. Yes, Biden is also an idiot and should not talk most of the time.
When did I say she was an idiot because I disagreed with her 99% of the time? I didn't. And no, I don't think you are an idiot. You have valid opinions with data and facts to back them up. Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me like you less. I dislike Palin because of the way she presents herself as well as the horrible way she speaks.
I'm pretty sure I answered your protesting question. I am all for protests as long as they are not in the direct face of an individual that is making a decision. Protesting a girl getting an abortion is VERY different than protesting a general movement such as global warming. People don't protest in Al Gore's face yelling at him for making the choice to speak on behalf of global warming. I would have a problem with that.
Debt does not mean anyone is an idiot. You can't tell me you don't have debt. I am a college graduate. Obviously I have debt. That doesn't make me an idiot. It would make me an idiot if I didn't pay it off, which I am.
sorry man, I didn't see your response. Well people protesting outside an abortion clinic is their 1st Amendment right, whether you like it or not. I disagree with KKK marches and the million man march but it is their Amendment right to have them.
I also disagree what Palin said as well. I do not believe in those views as well. I am not going to call her an idiot because she has an idiotic idea, big difference. Did you know that every speech Obama gives he uses a teleprompter? What evidence do you have of calling her an idiot? Do you know what she does as governor of Alaska? So 87% of people who live in Alaska are idiots too? That is her approval rating. History shows that Abe Lincoln wasn't a good speaker as well. He is one of the greatest presidents!
I stated in a previous post that the constitution should be changed. That is an idiotic statement. The majority of American's would think you r a moron for changing the laws of the land. The view you have of changing the constitution is idiotic, it doesn't make you an idiot.
Dan was the one who said the constitution should be changed. Not me. But he is right, and people can call me a moron or an idiot all they want. I'm not offended by it!
Yes I am aware of Obama using a teleprompter. I don't know why you think I'm a huge Obama nut just because I voted for him. I support him, but I don't act or pretend like the is "the chosen one". But even when Palin uses a teleprompter, she can't put her sentences together properly! She is both idiotic and and idiot, and my mind cannot be changed of that. She has obviously done a good job with AK but that just means she can do her job. Look at all these athletes that are superstars but they are dumb as rocks. They are good at their jobs because they know how to do them. They are smart in that respect but huge idiots when it comes to most other things. Take a look at Manny....Idiot.
The difference between you and I is that you disagree with the KKK yet you will stand by their right to voice their opinion to your death...no matter how stupid, idiotic, asinine, ludicris, and WRONG it is. They are clearly WRONG and are IDIOTS, but you will never go as far to say that because just as I am a "typical liberal", you are a "typical conservative".
"Sarah Palin is an Idiot! I don't agree with 99% of what she says, but have you ever seen her talk or give an interview? She can't speak clearly or string together a whole sentence. It boggles my mind that she is where she is today."
You just said here she is an idiot, and you dont agree with 99% of what she says.
I didn't see you response, that was my bad. You did answer, I also agree if the protest becomes non peaceful, the police should be called to break it up. If someone touched or assaulted Al Gore, I would want that person locked up. The 1st amendment calls for a peaceful protest. According to the law, verbal yelling at people is not against the law, it just makes the protestors idiots. If the protestors are pushing or touching of people entering the clinic, the protestors should be arrested for assault. The have lost their 1st amendment right. Depends on how you look at debt, a mortgage payment usually does not count as debt; it is referred as an investment. And yes, I have 0 debt.
That 99% statement was poorly worded on my part. I do not think she is an idiot because of that.
I suppose if you call a mortgage an investment then sure you have no debt. And if you would like to look at it that way, my education was an investment in myself so I have no debt either.
Craig I am not a typical conservative, I am a libertarian. I believe solely in the law of the USA, the constitution. Trust me, I am not pro-life or pro-choice. A conservative is pro-life. I believe in legalizing weed, I believe in state run casino's and gambling. I never met a conservative who believes in these. It is the KKK 1st Amendment right to hold PEACEFUL protest. The KKK views are horrible and idiotic. Every American has the same rights under the constitution unless they commit a crime. As long as it peaceful, anyone can protest about anything. If you takes protesting rights away from a certain group of people, then they have less rights than you. Basically, you have the same views as the KKK, less rights for a certain group of people.
HAHA, I figured you worded it poorly, just had to point it out. See a house has value. A student loan does not. You cannot sell your loans and get cash value for them. A home you can. That is why a mortgage is not looked at as debt. I am glad you have 0 credit card debt since the national average is $8000. Good for you man.
Craig,
I guess since I really believe that if someone has the choice to take a life, which is what I believe a fetus is, than people should be held responsible for murder. Making that kind of choice is not in the hands of mankind, its in the hands of God.
People should not be counciled for having that many abortions, that is taking away their decision making capabilities. They would have to be considered mentally unstable or incapable of making decisions if we wanted to do that (force counceling, I mean). Most would not go willingly. So, if we declare them mentally unstable, where does that put abortion?
Our problem is we live in a selfish nation. In one aspect we want to make as many possibilities for Americans as possible, on the other hand we keep taking away rights. For example, in MA, the choice to wear a seatbelt is no longer optional, or a helmet on a motorcycle. I believe it should be a choice. I also think those who do not wear a seatbelt are stupid for not doing so. But, that's my opinion. Just as I believe abortion is murder. I don't care what science says, there is a heartbeat, a soul, a life. Just because its availabe, doesn't mean its right. But, I am a definite conservative when it comes to issues such as this, and that is always how I'll think.
I don't think people SHOULD check through menstrual fluid! lol!
Of COURSE that's stupid.
I'm just saying, if you truly believe life begins at conception, then a discarded embryo is a dead person, not a menstrual period. If a born person dies of natural causes, you give that person a funeral. You don't say, "Oh that was a natural death so we'll just let the trash man pick up the body." The same respect given to dead born people isn't accorded to embryos and fetuses, not even by Right to Life.
That was my point.
It's logically inconsistent. The fact that even Right to Life thinks it would be idiotic to search through menstrual fluid for embryos that died a natural death (because it would be idiotic) proves that their logic is selective.
If they really believed what they said, it wouldn't seem idiotic, it would seem necessary. But they don't really believe what they say, they just use that 'life begins at conception' and 'embryos are people' thing to beat people over the head.
Embryos are embryos. People are people.
I used to be pro-choice, and then I realized that is a choice no one should WANT to make.
I think if a woman is raped and gets pregnant as a result, it's the only good thing that came out of a very bad situation. Maybe that sounds horrible, but I really don't think that just because a baby was conceived in a rape it will be "programmed" to be a messed up person.
If you don't want to keep a baby, put it up for adoption, period.
Pgrundy,
Obviously, there is not a funeral for all miscarriages and lives lost to abortion. Many people do not have funerals, but memorials. The same is given to those babies of people who actually mourn their death. Some people are creamated, does that make their memorial less worthy? Some people are found dead and do not have families or anything else and may not even be known. They don't have funerals. They are either just buried or just creamated with no memorial, same as most fetuses or embryos. Since there is only a parental choice to be made as to how to discard the body (which is what cremation and a burial is) then it should be up to the parent. There is still a mourning period and in some cases that I've heard, memorial services. So, this "crap" that we beat you over the head with isn't just crap.
So, where is the line drawn? Your arguments make no sense. If there is any argument to be made here it is simply scientific and religious. That's it. Any other argument is purely words to try to convince someone with nothing to back it up.
Since I believe in a loving God, I do not believe he would create life just for us to destroy it. Every person he created, he loves. So, what gives us the right to take that away? Absolutely nothing. Not irresposibility or science. Regardless of anyone's opinion on this issue, it is not the right of any one life to take the life of another, especially one so innocent.
Have you ever a heard pregnant woman say, "I'm having a fetus!" or "Feel my belly! The fetus just kicked!" Throughout human history getting pregnant was considered a great blessing. And what about the fathers? How is that my baby can be killed against my will? Not only that, most strident feminists tell me to shut up—that my baby being torn to pieces is none of my business!
A father's heirs and continuation of his blood line has played a huge role in the story of mankind. In this deconstructed, relativistic, nihilistic world things are turned upside down. Take a look a photo of a 24 week aborted baby and tell me that was not a human being who was mercilessly slaughter—by its own mother.
Pgrundy~ Since I believe in a loving God, I do not believe he would create life just for us to destroy it.
I completely agree, which is why the real debate is... when is it a life? That is going to be a very personal decision right up until the day we actually find a measurable soul in a person, and can test for when it has entered the fetus... I'm not going to hold my breath. Aside from that one very internal and personal decision (unless you let the religion machine make your choices for you) there is very little debate. NO one is saying we should kill ANYTHING. Pro choicers argue that the fetus is not alive in the first place. And if they were arguing that it is ok to kill a baby (and actually did so in the legal sense) then they should go to jail.
James~ Take a look a photo of a 24 week aborted baby and tell me that was not a human being who was mercilessly slaughter—by its own mother
Would we really want a woman who was willing to do that to her own baby to be raising a child?
Tricia~Dan: That's a total, male, cop-out.
Yeah I agree. If we were simple chimps I would disagree. Luckily we have that whole "frontal cortex" thing which allows us to process and restrict those primitive drives. I just like to throw ideas like that out once in a while.
As for the first part of the statement, I'm not sure, but perhaps because of my upbringing and the socio-economic status my friends and I have enjoyed (we're white middle class suburbanites) I do not know many men who would actually not take responsibility for a child they concieved. In fact I know of many many men who HAVE taken the responsibility, and don't know of any who have not. Perhaps it is different in other places, but in my experience it is clear that saying men are not using protection because they don't fear having that baby just as much as the woman does is plane wrong. Both men and women fear that baby and that responsibility equally... they are both just stupid (or horribly unlucky if they took all the right steps for prevention and everything failed... highly unlikely) So if both parents feel just as responsible for that baby yet the mother is getting all the blame (while the father gets a pat on the back for sticking around? weird) then I would have to say this is a societal issue; women are supposed to be better behaved. Or maybe it is biological; there is ALWAYS a chance that the fetus is not the mans... it has to be hers. Or it might come down to the fact that in the end the decision to abort or keep or put up for adoption is in the mother's hands... so she gets the brunt of the scrutiny.
Dani~ Making that kind of choice is not in the hands of mankind, its in the hands of God.
People should not be counciled for having that many abortions, that is taking away their decision making capabilities.
So it is in the hands of God, but we have the choice? What if God wants her to abort that baby because He knows that the baby will live a life of torment? If you truly believe it is in His hands then why don't you believe he has the control when it comes to making the decision to abort?
~ If you answer this with "because it says in the Bible that God would never make the decision to abort a life" please let me know where that is (seriously I'm curious, thanks)
But also if it is not God making the decision to abort the baby, then does that mean it is out of God's hands?
Mr Lombo: Hope the family is doing well! ~Are you against people protesting the Iraq war, Global Warming, or George W. Bush's policies? I am not against any protest as long as it is peaceful.
Perhaps the right to free speech and to peacefully assemble should be clarified by the supreme court. In my opinion "verbal abuse" of any kind is still abuse, and should not be tolerated. You can march around with your signs, and you can ask me to "honk for life" all you want, but the second you get in my face and tell me I'm a baby killer and going to hell... I'm going to kick your butt (not YOU but the THEY who do this... you know what I mean), and then I'm going to have you arrested for harrasment. Protesting in general is stupid. Put on a suite, walk to the town hall, ask to meet the governor or mayor and if you can't then make an apointment, get on some committees, do SOMETHING. Holding up signs is a silly way to get people to change their opinion.
As far as people protesting the war... I would have the same reaction if I saw someone screaming at a newly returning veteran, or a worker at an oil refinery. If you have a problem you should go to the source... not try to hurt the innocent just trying to get through life.
Dan— You are the first person I have ever heard express doubt that a fetus (the word means a human still developing in its mothers womb) is alive. Pro-choicers don't dispute its alive. Hell, it eats, shits, moves, and has heartbeat. They are saying it is a life that does not matter.
James~
Well having done some homework, I would say that you are correct. In fact the argument I kept coming across was that the baby is like a parasite and we should all feel lucky we were allowed to be born. I don't agree with that. Once a creature is called a "living human" then it should be illegal to kill it. However, I did find one argument that I thought was logical. It goes like this; if a young child (or any human) were dying and the doctor told the mother "you could save her if you give her some piece of your body (lung, bone marrow, blood, kidney, etc)", that mother has no obligation to provide her child with the life saving treatment. We can not legally demand another person to risk themselves, or to even discomfort themselves medically for the sake of saving another person. This includes the unborn living baby. Every unborn baby has a terminal illness that only the mother's generous donation of her own body will cure... ie it is a dependant fetus. In my opinion it makes the mother a better person to donate/risk herself for another human being, but it can not be demanded of her.
Just as I would think less of a person who could have saved a child by donating a kidney, but chose not to, so to I think less of women who choose not to save their baby's life. (If she chose this way because the man did not stay with her and she became overwhelmed, then I think less of him too.)
I guess the point is that the fetus will die naturally if the mother does not save it. No one can force another person to save someone (even if their is little risk to the person), but we sure can judge for ourselves the quality of a person who would not save a child.
Of course here I have skipped over the whole "the mother has an obligation because she chose to have sex and take on the risk of pregnancy". I still say she is a lesser quality of person for not saving that life, but I don't believe she has any more obligation to save that baby just because it was her stupidity that gave it a terminal disease.
I exclude from the preceding statements any woman who was raped, she is not a lesser person for not saving that life... that is just my opinion.
Wow. You certainly lit the site up. Good for you. I love that your responses always make sense and you remain so calm, confident and sane. Garage sale responses were more relaxing...this is making me tense.
I personally am not a fan of unlimited abortions. I defer in cases of rape and incest, but even there I would rather see other methods of handling the situation. Still, the freedom have an abortion is the law of the land and I accept that. Since I am a man I also have a limited voice in the debate. I also believe the death penalty is wrong for the same reasons. A life is a life in my view.
Excellent hub that really makes us think and not just knee-jerk a reaction.
Cheers!
Chef Jeff
Thanks for the comment Chef...I disagree that a life is a life no matter what. An axe murderer is useless to society and is not equal to you or me. The death penalty is certainly appropriate in this case. I won't say anything further about that because the death penalty is also a touchy subject that I have yet to come to a full conclusion of my own.
Thanks for that last remark too...I was hoping to get a reaction, but I also hope that it brings about solid debate which it seems to be doing a bit.
Dan,
We definitely agree on some points. When you said, "So it is in the hands of God, but we have the choice? What if God wants her to abort that baby because He knows that the baby will live a life of torment? If you truly believe it is in His hands then why don't you believe he has the control when it comes to making the decision to abort?" it really got me thinking.
God knows what He wants us to do. We also have free will. The freedom to believe in Him, to love Him, to serve His will. Since we have free will to do all this, we also have free will to disobey and not believe. Therefore, no, I do not believe that God would control a human being and break His promise of free will, but I do believe that He would not want a life terminated, a life that He created.
With that said, there is no where in the Bible that says anything about abortion in particular. This was most likely because it was not as big an issue as it is today. It wasn't the "hot topic" in the "news". :) Based on free will and the fact that God creates all life, do you think He would want his creation terminated? Someone He loves more than you or I could ever imagine?
I believe that since people have free will it is out of God's hands as to what we do with ourselves. Look at people on drugs. Would God want us to do that? NO WAY! They are destroying themselves! God wants the best for all of us, regardless of whether we are in our mother's womb or in the world. Its a matter of whether we listen or not.
Craig~ as for people being equal, I do believe that everyone is equal, but since crimes and laws and their punishments are created my mankind, there is little equality. God considers a sin a sin. End of story. However, we decide prison sentences or death sentences. We have to do that to keep order in our society. We all have the same chance to go to heaven, but our earthly punishments and rewards are different. It all depends on our society. And in the end...that's where this all goes anyway.
Dani~ Based on free will and the fact that God creates all life, do you think He would want his creation terminated? Someone He loves more than you or I could ever imagine?
In the end he lets us all die right?
Dan— Oh, I agree with you. If the mother's life hangs in the balance that is a far different story. However, all of us know that is extremely rare. My grandmother had 10 kids, cooked everything with lard, never saw a doctor in her life, and died in her sleep at 87. Women are killing babies because it is inconvenient to have a baby at this moment. The whole lot of them are sociopaths.
Chef— Abortion is not law, in its true sense. It is a fiat handed down by the Supreme Court way outside their legal jurisdiction. Slavery was also once the law. Doesn't make it right.
I'll tell you why the Bible doesn't mention abortion. It was unthinkable that anyone would abort a baby in the womb. Getting pregnant was the greatest blessing of all blessings. Along with having a piece of land. This didn't need to be said to those folks.
I doubt that it was unthinkable James. It probably has more to do with the fact that it was unheard of or that it wasn't really an option because the technology or science wasn't there.
It is terrible for you to call all women who have abortions sociopaths. What a close-minded view.
"The fetus is alive, it has a heartbeat and it has everything it needs within the first 4 weeks of pregnancy (usually before the woman even knows she is pregnant)."
A woman would usually know she was pregnant when or shortly after she missed her first period - 2 weeks after conception, 4 weeks' pregnant. And a baby doesn't have a heartbeat then, by any means! This is factually incorrect. It doesn't even have a heart yet. The heart starts beating at about 6 weeks.
"Throughout human history getting pregnant was considered a great blessing."
Throughout history, there have been countless tens of millions of women for whom getting pregnant was an absolute disaster.
Dan ~ God allows us all to die eventually to take us to heaven or hell, wherever we choose to go. And, in the case of murder or recklessness, disease, or anything else, you name it, we still go to the same place that we are destined to go. However, even though we have a choice, it should be a learned moral behavior to not take the life of another.
Londongirl~Whether or not you want to argue if there is a heartbeat at 6 weeks, 12 weeks or whenever, its still God's creation. And at 6 weeks pregnant I saw my baby's heart beating more clearly that I could imagine! So, the heart had to have been formed before then. My baby is now 3 and the joy of my life. Why allow someone to terminate a life when someone else could make that baby perfectly happy?
Well OK. Sociopath was too far. I'm sorry.
Dani, it was you who stated a fact and sought to rely on it - and you were wrong. It does matter.
I have a lovely 3 year old son. But abortion isn't just about healthy pregnant women and their healthy babies, you know. I had an abortion two years before I got pregnant with my son, because it was an ectopic pregnancy (baby growing outside the womb, a distinctly painful and unpleasant experience). No-one could make that baby perfectly happy, or, indeed, alive to be born in the first place.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/legal/history
http://womenshistory.about.com/od/abortion/a/ancie
Apparently abortion was carried out in ancient times... and is mentioned in the old testament.
LondonGirl~ It doesn't even have a heart yet. The heart starts beating at about 6 weeks.
I don't think a heart beat alone can be used to determine whether a fetus is alive. A heart can beat on its own. The heart does not beat just because the brain is sending it signals; the heart muscle fibers "beat" all on their own. If you were to remove a heart from an animal it would beat on its own until the fibers ran out of energy, and with a quick jolt of electricity they will start up again.
~because it was an ectopic pregnancy
I'm not sure I have seen anyone on here argue that a pregnancy like that should not morally be aborted. If the baby wont be born healthy (or at all) anyway then of course it should be terminated as soon as possible... especially if the mother is at risk.
I've seen people argue about it on my own hub about high-risk pregnancies, as not being justified.
Women in ancient times used plants that induced abortions. No doctors or science were needed - old wise women knew of these plants.
In Rome one species of plant was so popular for inducing abortions that it became extinct. In other cultures wives who were widowed while pregnant, aqnd who later remarried, were either forced to take natural abortants or were beaten until they miscarried. Thus, abortion is not some new phenomenon.
When I was young I remember overhearing my mom and her friends talking about various young women who had gone to back-street "clinics" to get abortions. They were illegal, but they still occurred. Women died because their families disapproved of their daughters giving birth ot an illegitimate child. These were "good Christian families" making these horrendous decisions.
As I said, I am not in favor of abortion as a means of birth control and anyone who uses it that way is wrong to do so. In cases of life of the mother I reluctantly agree that it may be necessary.
As for a life is a life, I have read stories about people who lead a life of terrible hatred and crime who changed and became better people because of it. An ax murderer's heart still beat and his mind still works, and if that is the substance of a plea for the unborn, thenhow much more for the born? Religious people, especially Christians, believe that wrong choices will be judged by God. Therefore saying that a murder's life is less worthy than mine is a judgement I dare not make.
The year before Roe V Wade exactly 39 women died having illegal abortions in the United States. About the same number who died last year having legal abortions. But why do we keep hearing "millions of women died in back alley abortions." It is a lie. Who would be interested in spreading such a lie? Those who wish to sooth their conscience's? Those who wish to control the population of the poor and minorities? Those who profit from death in the billion dollar a year abortion business? How about Demonic spiritual forces who's main interest is always the same goal in different forms: to deceive mankind about the truth so man will defy God and bring wrath upon himself.
You are very sick - pro choice. We seed the death and we reap deaths in the body bags.
Vlad...care to elaborate how my opinion makes me sick?
James...where did you get your 39 death figure? It seems to me that those kind of records would not really be all that sufficient. I would highly scrutinize the accuracy of this number simply because there is no way that all of the deaths from abortion could have been reported.
Londongirl~Ectopic pregnancies are neither safe for the mother or the baby. Death is almost certain for both. In that case, why risk both lives? I don't agree with the risk of both. I disagree with the abuse of abortion for birth control. In cases of rape, incest and ectopic or high risk pregnancies, it is up to the mother. Other than that, I disagree with it for religious reasons.
Does that make sense?
Dani
Dani... thank you... that certainly seems like a reasonable compromise. I wish everyone could come to an agreement like that! (except that instead of religious reasons, how about "ethical" reasons for those of us who don't do religion)
I know this happened a couple days ago, but since no one brought it up...check out this article of a Dr. who was killed for performing abortions.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/01/kansas.doctor.
The main suspect was a person who often protested outside of clinics...
Fitting for this Hub. How do you all feel about these protests now?
Idiot... obviously those women who were going to get abortions from the dr are just going to go somewhere else. It's as dumb as cops busting a drug dealer... the customers will just go to the next guy... the problem isn't the few people meeting the demand, the problem is that the demand exists. We need to end unwanted pregnancies and pregnancies with complications. No more demand = no more abortion drs.
From the United States Department of Health and Human Services.
"You always hear the pro-lifers saying abortion is murder, but you never hear any of them calling for a mandatory prison sentence for the woman who aborts the fetus."
wow wow wow.. officialy love this argument. I can't wait to bring this up in discussion with my prolife friends.
thanks for stopping by bcook! I said the same thing when I heard that argument on the radio. It's a definite good argument.
Before our daughter was born the doctor told us there was a high risk of birth defects, possibly even severe mental problems. We were asked if we would consider abortion. My wife and I decided not to, we would accept our daughter as she came to us with no regrets.
Happy to say she turned out with none of the anticipated birth defects and lives a normal, happy life now at 19 years of age. Well, she does ask for too much money, but I can live with that!
I do not, however, feel comfortable making that same decision for others, and can only speak for myself and our decision.
James A. Watkins, I had never heard anyone claim that millions of women died in abortions, but I did hear and know that many women sought abortions before Roe v. Wade. Abrortion is not a new topic - it was hotly debated in Roman times when so many women used a natural abortant plant that the plant actually became extinct!
Abortions were performed thousands of years ago with the same results as today. Whether or not it is ethical, it is legal. Once slavery was legal, too, but was it ethical? I would say not. But in order to change Roe v. Wade you need to get the law overturned by either Congress or the Supreme Court. I doubt we'll be fighting a Civil War to overturn it as we did with slavery, and in order to get anti-abortion (pro-life) people in Congress the Republican Party needs to first get voters. They aren't doing too well at that with exclusionists such as Rush Limbaugh & Dick Cheney turning off the Independents such as myself. I'm not good enough to be in his kind of party, so I simply turn elsewhere. Although I am not normally inclined to vote Republican for major offices, I am not the only Independent out here who thinks the Republican Party is doing the same thing as the Democrats did a decade or so ago.
Suicide by exclusion.
Great job luring the unsuspecting in with your title -- then turning your argument 180 degrees in the opposite direction!
I agree with your point of view. The most important thing is education. The more people (girls and boys) know about how sex works, the better they can protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy. Birth control does fail, however, Even the pill is not 100% effective.
I don't have a source to cite statistics, but I would imagine that very few girls/women choose abortion lightly. It's a heavy decision. As is choosing to have the baby and what to do with it afterward. Would I love to see more babies available for adoption? Of course. Would I love to see every child that is brought into the world be cared for and loved and having all its needs met by responsible parents (preferably two, but one would suffice)? You bet.
Where I take issue with the prolifers is the inconsistency of their argument. They seem to care solely about the fetus (or "baby") while it is in utero. After the baby comes out, where are these bleeding heart anti-liberals? Are they in favor of any support for the mother and the baby, if she is unable to care for it herself? Hell NO! If we take away the legality of abortion, we are going to not only have a higher population, but a higher population of children born to parents who are not ready or able to be parents. Is that desirable? I think not.
And finally, we may argue about the exact time when life begins. Some argue it's at conception. Some argue that it's at 23 weeks. Some argue that it's not until the fetus is viable outside its mother's womb (which may be 24 weeks or later). What we can ALL agree on is that once born, we are ALL alive.
Where is the concern for sanctity of life when so-called pro-lifers are pro-capital punishment? Is it just me, or does anyone else see the hypocrisy in that?
Hey Mighty Mom! Thanks for reading. I appreaciate you stopping by and leavign a comment.
You make a very valid point...we all HAVE to agree that there is no question about once we are actually born we are alive. The debate about whether or not it is sooner will go on forever, but at least we can find some kind of common ground there.....
unless people are too stubborn to consider that!
The science is irrefutable. The Bble is too.
"The two shall become one flesh."
Life begins when TWO cells become ONE cell. This new cell will produce a NEW PERSON if allowed to proceed as "normal".
The process immediately begins at this moment of conception; new DNA is formed, never before seen, nor will it be again, unless cloned.
That is when this human being exists and desrves protection. Blacks were once thought to be less than human. The founder of Planned Parenthood thought so. Look it up.
NPR is a tool of Satan. Of course, you know that, being another.
Mogabe, neither science nor the Bible are irrefutable. There is no proof that the Bible is true, and if you want to say so then show me the proof. As for science, it is built in such as way that ideas come and go as evidence proves or disproves them. Science is always in a state of growth, seeking new truths and new proofs.
As for NPR being a tool of Satan, I've never heard such a silly comment in my life. It is a radio program, not a tool of Satan or any other evil entity. Grow up, sir!
All I can say to you Mogabe is....
wake up.
Science has figured it out. We are a living human from the moment we are concieved. Embryos exhibit the seven characteristics found in all living organisms (Cellular Reproduction, Homeostasis, Response to Stimuli, Metabolism, Growth, Organization, and Adaptation). An embryo also has the full complement of human DNA recieved from its parents. Wouldn't it follow then that it is a living human? Sentience has nothing to do with a human's right to life. Rights correlate with the respective abilities that make those rights possible. We have freedom of speech because we can speak, we have the freedom to be autonomous when if are able to make our own decisions and we have the right to life because we are alive. Saying that we must be sentient to have the right to life is like saying we must be able to speak in order to have the right to autonomy. It can be said, however, that we must be alive to be sentient, therefore if sentience is important we must protect life to protect sentience.
Essentially, you finished your essay by justifying everything you said with an uneducated presumption (the false statement that we do not yet know if an embryo can be considered human).
When you say that this issue is a matter of the mother choosing what to do with her body, you are forgetting two things; one, we are not allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies, otherwise murder would be legal, and two, there is a second human involved in the pregnancy (the unborn child) with its own rights. She is not simply 'controling her own body'. She is killing a human life.
When we deny a human the right to life, we automatically deny that human every other right that life allows. It is logical that if you value other human rights, life should be the most important one to protect.
As far as rape, incest and disfigured/disabled fetuses go, the means by which they were created or the presence of an impairment do not change the fact that the embryo is human and has human rights. All of these are very difficult issues to tackle, but they can be successfully approached from an angle that does not involve murder. It is sickening when a woman is raped, but is also sickening that illegitimate children are not considered worthy of human rights. This descrimination is unfounded. There is no ambiguity in this issue; all humans deserve human rights plain and simple.
Overpopulation? Trying to stop overpopulation is an exercise in futility. So long as humans gain satisfaction from reproduction, our population will continue to grow. Besides, it doesn't really matter when the earth becomes overpopulated, the point is that it will. Our efforts are better spend on more morally commendable efforts that will actually accomplish the intended goal (killing people to save people is a little counter-productive. If people need to be saved, why are they being killed to accomplish this goal? This makes no logical sense!). Rather than rely on killing, we should research productive crops, efficient energy production, and extra-terrestrial colonization rather than kill a percentage of every generation with the hopes that the problem will just go away. Abortion will not make overpopulation go away; it will only prolong the inevitable.
Well, I apologize if I sounded trollish.
God Bless
Dan says:
7 months ago
I agree. Those people outside planned parenthood were freakin obnoxious... and all I wanted were some free condoms! As far as educating teens about other forms of contraception I think you are probably correct. I do believe that if a parent wants to teach abstinence and to try and enforce that belief then that is great, more power to them. However, they should also be responsible and make sure the kids know about contraceptions like the pill and most importantly condoms. I would really like to see a study done about whether promiscuity rates actually increase with knowledge about contraceptives. Hopefully with that knowledge comes some teaching about STDs which should scare most people into at least wearing a condom, if not total chastity. Along with that study how about a study to show that more knowledge actually decreases unwanted/teen pregnancy. I'll have more (I tend to disagree with you throughout!), but for now it is late.