Are chemtrails real and contrails a con?
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Contrails or chemtrails - what is the truth?
It has been said that there are two types of people on this planet - "those who read Nexus magazine and those who don't." I am in the first category and came upon the term chemtrail in the publication probably as far back as ten years ago.
Since then I began to see trails in the sky being left by planes that were not like the jet contrails I was used to - the ones that soon fade away. Over the years I noticed more and more of the new long-lasting contrails that over time spread out into fake clouds. I began to research the subject more and found that a movement of people was forming worldwide who were watching, cataloguing, writing about and campaigning against the ever-growing mess that is being made of the skies by trails being left by planes.
If you run a Google search on "chemtrails" you will find thousands of entries for websites devoted to the subject, forums where chemtrails are discussed daily, videos in their hundreds on YouTube, chemtrail sites on Myspace and much more evidence that something is going on that millions of people are very concerned about. However, if you open a newspaper or watch the TV news you will never see any mention of chemtrails. If concerned citizens contact the authorities they either get brushed off with some lame response or ignored. Environmental activist group Greenpeace has been strangely silent on the matter too.
Naturally for people who are looking for the truth about what is going on so openly in the skies overhead, and finding little or no response from government and other officials or the mainstream media, these people are going to get very suspicious. Those who are already "truthseekers" and "conspiracy theorists" will probably already know about the matter and have decided that chemtrails are real, a threat to us and, indeed, proof of the reality of a very big conspiracy. Authors like David Icke have added chemtrails into the subjects they discuss in their books and lectures. Alex Jones has recently starting talking about the topic as well. Canadian journalist William Thomas, who is credited as one of the first people to be kicking up a fuss about chemtrails, wrote Chemtrails Confirmed. Clifford Carnicom researched the matter in very great depth and set up a website examining the subject of chemtrails. Like Thomas, Carnicom's name will be well known to anyone concerned with what is going on with regard to chemtrails.
However, because a vast number of people choose to follow what they are informed of by official sources, and amazingly, because yet more people haven't even noticed what has happened to the skies, two camps have been formed - there are the chemtrail believers and activists and the non-believers and debunkers of the matter. One of the debunkers who is calling himself JazzRoc I actually know personally, and he has been posting messages all over the chemtrail sites on YouTube claiming that the trails are nothing more than "soda pop." JazzRoc says that the trails are caused by humidity factors and that persistent contrails are not a new phenomena but that we see more because there is more air traffic. He asserts that there is nothing harmful being sprayed out of the planes and that people are becoming ill due to air pollution and other factors, including making themselves that way thinking about it. This is a subject we have had to agree to disagree upon, although I am not saying he is wrong on all of it.
Although most of the media has been silent the Discovery Channel broadcast an episode in their Best Evidence series in which they took a look at the subject in a program called Chemical Contrails. Journalist Victoria Hardy had an article published in American Chronicle entitled A Doctor Speaks Out About Chemtrails, in which she reports on what Dr Stephen D. McKay has said about the matter.
According to Hardy, Dr McKay had been contacted by the BBC and Channel 4 television stations in the UK to work in an advisory capacity for documentaries on weather modification and geo-engineering projects. He says that there are four different projects employing chemtrails - the first of which being an attempt to block the suns rays and halt global warming to a degree by using a sunscreen devised by the late Dr Edward Teller and made up of aluminum oxide particles. Dr McKay also said that the US Navy's Radio Frequency Mission Planner is using the chemtrails as a miltitary program, that a further project was also using barium salts to modify the weather based on Nikola Tesla discoveries, and finally, that the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is utilising barium in the atmosphere for undisclosed purposes.
Barium is a toxic element and is said to have been found in above normal amounts in water samples in areas subjected to chemtrails and many people believe this as well as aluminum, is what is making them ill. A wide range of symptoms are being attributed to chemtrails including: asthma, allergies, flu-like illness, respiratory and sinus problems, nose bleed, fatigue and depression, tinnitus, sight problems and inflammation of the eyes,dizziness, skin rashes, high blood pressure and pneumonia. Another very weird disease has been added to the list and it is known as Morgellons. It is characterised by a sensation of crawling under the very inflammed skin and coloured fibers emerging from it. Morgellons is a subject nearly as big as chemtrails so Google it to find out more.
Other toxins like diethylene bromide are said to be found after chemtrails have been sprayed over the skies and pathogens including moulds, viruses, and even dessicated human blood cells. Many people have reported a very fine web that has been left all over everything in the wake of overhead chemtrail activity. It is also theorised that drugs such as Valium and Prozac have been made into aerosol form and are being used to drug the population on a mass scale. Admitted spraying of aluminum chaff by the miltary has been reported over Germany and Europe and over parts of the US. Aluminum is linked with causing Alzheimer's disease and whether it is in the air in the form of aluminum salts, aluminum metallic particles or aluminum chaff, my logic says that it represents a threat to out health and shouldn't be there!
It is not just the persistent trails that people are seeing but also strange atmospheric phenomena like sun halos and "chembows," which are rainbow colours showing in the fake cloud cover. By night a new phenomenon is also being seen known as "noctilucent clouds" in which the clouds are seen to glow. As a nature lover I have spent all my life looking at the world around me but I had never seen a sun halo until last year and now I have seen several. Chemtrails were also present in the skies - what a coincidence!
Many people believe that a very sinister depopulation program has been put into operation and that the chemtrails are a big part of it. This theory includes the idea that the public are being increasingly weakened on a cumulative basis so the immune system cannot function and that the victims will become seriously ill and/or die. The fact that the authorities are saying nothing is being seen as a sign of this threat being very real because what government would want to admit that billions are being spent on killing the people off?
Weather modification programs are definitely real as is the subject of weather warfare, and I suggest that if you are interested that you Google these terms.
Rosalind Peterson set up http://www.californiaskywatch.com/
Her site states clearly: "We believe that no one, no government agency or private corporation, has the right to pollute our air or drinking water supplies, modify our weather, or impact the living environment around us (even the upper atmosphere), without our consent."
Rosalind says that it is better to use the term "persistent contrail" than chemtrail because the United States Airforce has officially stated that chemtrails are a hoax and based on this the media will not touch the subject if that word is used.
Many people researching and protesting about chemtrails believe that the HAARP experimental research centre in Alaska is using the chemtrails for various purposes including weather modification. Certain types of artificial cloud patterns are being said to be caused by HAARP, which employs technological discoveries by Nikola Tesla.
Besides the varied theories about what the chemtrails are there are ways that are being used to combat them and their effects. Orgonite based on the discoveries of Wilhelm Reich is believed to protect against chemtrails and devices known as "chembusters," also based on Reich's work are being made and sold to get rid of the trails.
It has been admitted that an ongoing program is being put into operation of aerial spraying of the California Bay area with Checkmate pesticide to control the Little Brown Apple moth, which is said to be a pest. What damage this will do to the health of people and wildlife is unknown. The program is set to spray the area monthly and is going on for years. People who know about it are not surprisingly angry and want this stopped. I mention this because, although it is not the sort of chemtrail spraying we see all over the skies, it is a form of spraying being done using planes and using potentially toxic substances. For more info on this I advise searching on "Checkmate spraying in California"
Personally, I believe that chemtrails are a danger and that they should be stopped. I wear a T-shirt saying so and I wrote and had published an article in Tenerife News entitled: Contrails or Chemtrails and Freak Weather
But I encourage you to do your own research and come to your own conclusions. I don't think anyone has the full facts on this matter. As John Lennon once wrote and sang:
"Nobody told me there´d be days like these, strange days, indeed..."
For more info please see: http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
and http://www.willthomas.net/Chemtrails/index.htm
and an excellent forum I belong to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/
And finally I recommend Carole Pellatt's brilliant site in which she documents what she sees going on in the skies with slideshows of photos with narrative text: http://homepage.mac.com/carolepellatt/MATRIX/INDEXCHEMTRAILS.html
STOP PRESS UPDATE:
Since starting this hub, yesterday to be precise, I have had a major realisation from listening to what JazzRoc had to say in the course of the very heated discussion in the comments below. I realised that my association of sun halos being caused by something harmful from chemtrails because I saw them when these trails had been in the sky was wrong. Yes, they are caused by what is in the atmosphere but I was wrong about it being harmful and I am now in agreement with JazzRoc that it was ice crystals from the water vapour up there. I had blinded my thoughts to this by my belief in the chemtrail conspiracy and by my great distrust of science - something JazzRoc points out in his blog that many of us fear science and don't understand it. I do believe that many scientists lie and are paid to but that doesn't mean that they all do, nor does it mean that their inventions and discoveries are evil - it depends on how they are used.
The moment of realisation was that I know that halos are NOT caused by dust or solid particles but by the properties of water in the atmosphere just like we get around the moon and which can give a rainbow coloured halo. A moon halo is something I regard as normal having seen them all my life. So by a process of logic I see that what I have been calling chemtrails, in a very large number of cases, would be water vapour persistent contrails as has been claimed by non-chemtrail-believers and official sources like the BBC.
This realisation, of course leads me to wondering if other "believers" have blinded themselves by their own belief in the conspiracy and a great distrust in science and governments? And I am wondering why authors and noted researchers cannot see the simple logic here? Are they similarly blinded or are they choosing to lie to back up what they are saying?
JazzRoc also points out that solid particles of aluminium, barium, sulphur etc would clog up the engines of a plane and so could not be used that way, and that is something I was already in agreement with him on but have been thinking in terms of separate tanks and sprayers. That commercial airlines do not have these I am sure he is right about, although military and specially customised planes used in weather modification can so I haven't switched sides completely!
A major realisation that has gone with this is that our skies must have become far more full of water and that chemtrail-believers have been seeing the trails that persist because of this as proof of conspiracy against us. It is not but it is proof on there being a big change in what is up there and it appears that the amount of water vapour in the sky is increasing and so with it the trails and cloud coverage resulting. I would highly recommend that anyone reading this also reads JazzRoc's comments and his blog which he has provided the link for in the comments below.
And finally, I am leaving all the rest of this as it was in this hub so people can make up their own minds about what is real and what is not! My personal reality has shifted thanks to JazzRoc!
NB: I recommend most highly a site that JazzRoc praises too that explains what is going on really well, as well as answering chemtrail believers. Please visit http://www.contrailscience.com
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Comments
Thanks for responding, SweetiePie!
Nice summation; well done.
Hi Bard,
good article. Yes, chemitrails are real but important is detect and differe them from the common contrails. Of course, the amount of metallic matter in them is a good way for understand they are not a simple condensation.
Thanks for posting, randomlight and Fabrizio!
Very nicely put Bard although the small part about reference to "persistant contrails vs. Chemtrails" really makes no difference as the USAF is gonna say no matter what ya wannna callem, they have always been there and ain't hurtin' no one,,,,,RIGHT
Darol
I am sure you are right, Darol, but I put that in because I know Rosalind thought it was important and I was attempting to give as full a picture as possible!
Many a conspiracy at the top they will never tell us, thanks for the insight and I did see the show you referenced on Discovery.
Good job.
B
Thank you! It was good that Discovery did a program on it and even though it didn't really go very far it nevertheless was one of the first reports by the media to give any coverage to the subject!
Dear Bard, this is a rather horrifying subject. I've never actually heard of this before. The only chemical trails that i"ve heard of are the ones behind jet planes and ofcourse spills of pesticides and insecticides that ae sprayed by planes on the american and russian farms. Would you please write a more encyclopedic article on this on the copper wiki . My friends and i would be extremely grateful. The site is http://www.copperwiki.org Do check out some of the articles on sunscreen and eco fibres and please do send feedback when and if you get the time. thanks
Thanks for posting, Mhadavi, and I agree it is a "horrifying subject" and this is perhaps why some people go into denial about it and say everything is OK and its just vapour trails. This puzzles other people who are alarmed by what they can see in the sky and what they have found out. And these trails and skies covered in the artificial clouds they make is a new occurrence. If you look at photos from around the world from over ten years back there are normal skies with blue skies and white clouds ot perhaps grey ones but never skies streaked with trails and skies covered in whitish haze from such trails. It just doesn't add up! When I left the Uk in 2004 the sky wasn't covered in trails but when I went back in 2007 it was! Something has changed! If you add in the admitted reports of military chaff then of course people will be concerned. Whatever is going on it has, as you can see here, spawned a whole new terminology and a movement of people.
If I can find time I will submit an article for that site so thank you for the suggestion!
Bard,
Great post! I have been talking to people about chemtrails quite a bit. It is about awareness and getting others informed. Most people have not even a second thought to look up and see the obvious "writing in the sky". They are getting better and better in making them look like nice, natural whispy clouds to fool the sheeple. We notice how there will be criss crosses all over the sky one day and the next couple, none. I wonder if we will ever know the truth, what they are, why, and how do they detirme where they spray. There have been many postulations of the ominous reasons to spray of which include keeping us from evolving spiritually and acheiving enlightenment. I find it an interesting speculation as most things in this world, especially instituted by the government, do carry this side effect.
Looking forward to learning and sharing more...
Namaste,
Dre
A little timeline - I am 31 years old and have grown up in Australia. As a teenager I used to see the trails and think they were cool, you know like the airforce jets with the coloured smoke displays.....my perspective as an adult is ....HORROR. What kind of world are we going to leave our future generations?
Thanks for posting, Dre and Shaye!
Dre, I have heard the points you have made but I thank you for posting them here for others to read.
Shaye, I have a British friend who doesn't accept that chemtrails are harmful but who thinks they are pretty. PersonallyI think, and a lot of people share this opinion, whether they are harmful or not, a sky with old-fashioned fluffy clouds that make ptictures in the sky for the mind's eye are far superior aesthetically that a sky grafitted with lines and criss-crosses and finally a whitish haze of false cloud. And that is another part of it - weather forecasts nowadays often talk about haze and hazey conditions. We never used to have all this haze but had skies with clouds or without but not the mess that is so often there now. As Dre, has pointed out some days there is none of this and then the skies return to how they were meant to be.
We have them here in Oegon as well. It seems this is a world wide problem????
On the days tha chemtrails are being used, the planes criss-cros the sky and before you know it, instead of a beautiful blue skied day, you have complete overcast.
Yes, Karen, and the picture you describe is being reported over and over and over again and IF anyone manages to get any sort of response from anyone official they will say that what is being seen is normal and they are harmless contrails! How can it be harmless to cut out the light with such a cloud cover? Of course, it can't! We never used to have skies like these!
Thanks for posting!
Bard,
Wow...You have opened my eyes and mind at the same time...
I live in the Northeast on the coast of the US...minutes from the Bush compound- Walkers point.
The airspace is littered with intenational flights heading to Boston's Logan and various NY hubs.
We also maintain one of the largest US Airforce runways at Portsmouth, NH Pease Air base (only SAC refuling now).
The resulting asthma, allergies, flu-like illness, respiratory and sinus problems, nose bleed, fatigue and depression, tinnitus, sight problems and inflammation of the eyes,dizziness, skin rashes, high blood pressure and pneumonia STATISTICS would be very interesting to calculate for this region.
Do you have any ideas how I may find this information out tatistically?
TheBull
Thanks for posting, Bull!
I don't personally know how you'd get such answers but I would thank that someone at the chemtrailtrackingusa forum would and what's more the members would welcome such an idea - there is often the call there for ways of doing something that produces scientific data that can be given to the authorities and the debunkers so they can be asked to explain it! In other words we need to be able to talk their language back at them. Please consider joining and posting there if only for the one thread. The link is at the bottom of my article.
Very informative! I have been reading about contrails for years, but I have never heard them referred to as chemtrails before. I have noticed, though, that many of them do seem to have a lot more hang time lately. I live relatively close to a major airport, and have noticed that, on some days, there are upwards of 100 contrails in the sky, while on others there are only a few.
Thanks for your feedback, rmr!
You have a mystery there whether they are harmless or not! Debunkers of the subject say the trails only persist in certain atmospheric conditions to which my question is why did such conditions not exist until in the last decade or so in which chemtrails have been reported? There are two airports on this island and plenty of planes in and out but mostly no chemtrails, however, when I went back to Cardiff in Wales last year the skies were covered in trails daily as was the airport there and it didn't used to be like that!
Great hub Steve, and as you well know a subject close to my heart as an active campaigner for the awarenes of persistent contrails (chemtrails). We have lots and lots of PC (persistent contrails) here in Devon Uk, and most ppl do not bat an eyelid at them, till I alert them to the possibility of what they actually are and how to tell them apart from real contrails. Most ppl are surprised that this subject is not covered by the media, and the intelligent ones are concerned by its conspicuous abscence, as it it not even ridiculed as a hoax in the media. I have witness chembows (as you know) sun halos and a myriad of PC's in various formations. The freak weather we have had in economically poor areas in recent times is confirmation for me that some sort of NWO plan to eradicate "the useless eater population" is in full swing. I still do my research and blog on the matter.
Thanks for the feedback, Lou, and yes, I know you know what is going on!
You may believe that chemtrails are real, O Bard, but you are wrong.
You are wrong, and you cannot prove you are right. Your "proof" is that "thousands of people say so".
These people that "say so" share many, and perhaps all, of the attributes of people that believe the Earth is flat, the Sun goes round the Earth, that God made Man "in his own image" (6,000 years ago!), and we CANNOT possibly have evolved from an ape-like creature five million years ago, that we are "imbued with a soul", and if we "please God" we will "go to Heaven" after our body dies and rots.
These people are DELUDED by their own ignorance and fear. They, on the whole, suffered through their educational period (personally I found it unpleasant even while top of the a-stream in a grammar school) and never learned to respect the opinions of people more able than they were to grasp essential scientific principles. Otherwise they would, of course, believe the word of atmospheric scientists who have for decades been telling these people that persistent contrails are a natural by-product of large-scale mass air transit.
The first queries as to why the sky turned white were made in the late fifties and early sixties, so the topic is NOT exactly a new one. Even before that collisions occurred between close-flying Flying Fortress bombers on 1000-bomber daylight bombing raids on Germany between 1943 and 1945 when they too turned the skies white with the exhausts from their 18-cylinder radial engines in particularly cold and humid conditions.
If a million tons of kerosine are burned daily (yes!) in the stratosphere, which is thin and cold and easily humidified with relatively small amounts of water, then large areas of the sky are going to turn WHITE. This is the "white" of ice crystals - water!
The rest is fanciful paranoia, with a small amount of LIES, DECEIT and FRAUD. For that, blame Carnicom and some ignorant and some shameless YouTubers.
You should be ashamed of yourself. If you were better-educated, Bard, you would be. Your activity is harming society.
I have amassed quite a lot of support literature at
http://jazzroc.wordpress.com and invite your responses...
Thanks for posting your opinions, Jazzroc, however, I am no further convinced by your arguments!
Perhaps after all you REALLY ought to read my wordpress blog.
In it you will find confirmation of everything I have mentioned above, and directly-attributable quotes from specialist atmospheric scientists, graphs, details and photographs of almost all relevant material, specific proofs of chemtrailers' fraudulent claims and blow-by-blow debunks of EVERY chemtrail claim.
What more can one do, when confronted by a deluded and harmful person who is determined in his ignorance to do further harm?
Well, advise you NOT to visit the US, I suppose. THERE they have the Patriot Act (which is not my idea of nice legislation!)
What you are doing falls within the parameters of that act, and newly-trained and less sympathetic people there might well take it upon themselves to "educate" you, seeing as you are obviously determined never to do the job yourself.
Even in a British society noted for its tolerance of stupidity you might find that at some time in the near future (these are changing times!) your ignorant disregard of scientific principles, technocratic excellence and social decency will cause you to fall foul of the law.
Don't ever say I didn't warn you...
JazzRoc, I have read your blog, and as it happens it is now probably being read by some freemasons - as I saw earlier that one has left a link to it and a recommendation in the Universal Freemason's message board of which I am a member.
I have told you that I don't agree with you but you do not appear to be able to agree to disagree but become insulting and threatening in tone (warning me) and how you expect anyone to want to hear from you when you adopt these ways I really don't know. However, as I have also told you, I don't believe that this subject should all be a one-sided debate of chemtrail believers agreeing with chemtrailbelievers and on the other side the scientific debunkers all debunking - I would suggest that both sides have much to learn but they cannot do so if stuck viewpoints are held! You happen to believe in science and have a lot of faith in it and I don't simple as that. You don't believe in God and I do!
I happen to agree with you that there are people who are ill and blaming chemtrails may not be ill from chemtrails but from other sources. I also agree with you that the crosses are in completely different levels of the sky and only look like crosses from down below. You see I don't totally disagree with you but on the other hand I am convinced that chemtrails are very real and that weather modification is one definite use they are being put to, but I have told you that before.
You call people "uneducated" but what does that mean? It means that they don't happen to agree with the official version of things perhaps - I certainly don't! Scientists can and do lie and if you want an example, fluoride is one that springs to mind and mercury amalgam being another! There are many people active in the opposition to chemtrails who are educated to university standard eg Dr Stephen McKay whom I have mentioned in the article. I happen to have a BA degree, a diploma in media, 5 A-levels and 6 O-levels and that counts as educated by most people's standards. Education though is often indoctrination and manipulation turning out people to carry on the system and brainwashed to believe what they are told not to think for themselves!
"it is now probably being read by some freemasons" - what a horrible thought!
"Universal Freemason's message board of which I am a member" - what, another horrible thought!
"insulting and threatening in tone" - without a doubt you are a fool, for you are still ever-ready to accept baseless arguments and reject the remorseless logic of mine. I advised you not to visit the US, nor Britain after 2012. Personally I'll admit to finding it difficult to be pleasant to someone like you who is practically as dangerous as a bomb-wielding terrorist with your spreading of lies and fear. I regard you now exactly the way I regard arms dealers. You are living in a safe spot and a safe era where your wickedness is going unpunished, but that won't last for ever.
"you expect anyone to want to hear from you" - I certainly won't lie to gain plausibility like the people YOU believe.
"both sides have much to learn" - Science and the truth of Science is not a democracy. Only ONE side is utterly ignorant in this case, and it's YOURS. You have learnt nothing and are telling lies as a consequence.
"You happen to believe in science and have a lot of faith in it" - I put no FAITH in Science. That's like putting FAITH in Mathematics. Is one FAITHFUL to LOGIC, or merely LOGICAL?
"You don't believe in God and I do!" - Which God is this? The jealous one? The one who made the Universe in six days six thousand years ago?
"I am convinced that chemtrails are very real" - As real as your god, santa claus, and the tooth fairy.
"weather modification is one definite use they are being put to" - Sure thing. The three million four hundred thousand tons of barium required to provide a mono-molecular coating over the whole Earth would only take eighty-five thousand tanker sorties using one and a half million tons of fuel. And, of course, next week, you'd have to repeat it, etc.
"You call people "uneducated" but what does that mean?" - It means believing "weather modification is one definite use they are being put to".
"Educated" is what I have just demonstrated to you: the ready use of mathematics and a true knowledge of the properties of the Earth to show you just what foolishness you speak.
"I happen to have a BA degree, a diploma in media, 5 A-levels and 6 O-levels and that counts as educated by most people's standards" - Hmm. And I've seen those standards fall year after year.
By my standards you are DIM. If I were as dim as you are I'd keep my stupid mouth shut. It seems you are too dim to understand how dim you are. That IS a shame...
"believe what they are told, not to think for themselves" - How ironic! Shine a light on that...ah, but your batteries are low, and your light bulb glows a faint orange... lacking scientific understanding, you cannot see how misled you have been, and how misleading and dangerous you now are.
It appears from all that that we are no longer friends seeing as you keep on insulting me and are so bigoted in your views. You do not allow others freedom of thought and opinion and are another form of the thought police.
Yes, I do believe people like David Icke and Clifford Carnicom whom you condemn.
I have tried to present a balance of views here by letting you have your say and included them in the article above but it clearly isn't working and maybe this is why all the chemtrail sites block you?
The Freemason who has posted your link found it here where you posted it and that is freedom of information as it should be!
Seeing as you think so lowly of me now what do you make of Beck who has released a new song called Chemtrails? I applaud him for putting the subject in the mainstream world of pop music!
I've never heard of chemtrails. Thanks for writing this hub.
JazzRoc - If your case is correct, you've considerably weakened it by the way you have chosen to argue your point here.
Hi Eric! Thanks for posting!
Eric, my case is correct. If I were arguing with someone who simply misunderstood contrails I might be more polite, but there is more to it than that. You would do well to leaf through http://jazzroc.wordpress.com
Bard: "we are no longer friends" - that's as it should be. You won't find arms dealers in my list of friends either.
"you keep on insulting me" - I keep on describing you as an ignorant person who is way above your head, and causing harm within our society by insisting that people you do not know are deliberately poisoning the whole of our society, using baseless assertions and faulty reasoning. You've GOT to be stupid, because I cannot see you as THAT intelligent and malevolent.
"so bigoted in your views" - I see you've decided I'm not "programmed" (that's the usual one) so I must be simply bigoted.
It seems to me that you consider the understanding of science to be a form of bigotry. Well, we live in a scientific and technological world, and here we are using that very technology to conduct this argument. You are arguing with a man who has tested jet engines in their test beds, helped in the construction of the supersonic wind tunnel used to test the Concord's engines, helped in the construction of the nuclear decanning plant in Windscale, helped in the construction of the world's first ethernet network, and the world's first modern electric city car. (And many other things, but that's by-the-by).
I know exactly how gas turbines work and exactly how their exhausts work in the stratosphere, and exactly how the stratosphere functions from my personal work experience. This isn't a "view". I can BUILD these things.
You turn up with your "fear of science", read a whole bunch of foolish and baseless and totally inaccurate assumptions in a scientific field you don't understand at all, and accuse INNOCENTS of attempted GENOCIDE. Who is the BIGOT here?
"You do not allow others freedom of thought and opinion" - This IS "freedom of thought and opinion". How can your statement be correct?
"are another form of the thought police" - Really!
"I have tried to present a balance of views" - We aren't talking about a "balance of views". Science is not a "balance of views". You're either CORRECT or WRONG.
"it clearly isn't working" - It's working fine from my perspective. You are doing EVIL and I'm trying to prevent you, albeit unsuccessfully so far. I'm trying to sting you into some feeling of remorse for what you are doing, and hoping that you might, after all, educate yourself out of your delusion.
I'm also showing others that this ludicrous topic is opposed by scientists and other educated people. It is we who are doing things in this society, we who provide the wealth and power for travel and information systems (like this one) to the benefit of everyone. We have been able to do this by years of poorly-paid study, experiment and practice. We are professionals and deserve respect for our abilities and achievements - not this ignorant and shocking diatribe to which we are subjected.
In 1981, as our small team of electronics engineers clustered around an oscilloscope in a Wood Green laboratory which was demonstrating for the first time in the world that it was possible to send information down a wire at a rate of a hundred megabits per second (and we knew we were witnessing the start of a world revolution in information), nothing would have led me to believe that twenty-seven years later I would find myself using this fabulous system to conduct arguments about contrails with dumbed-down and deluded pseudo-scientists.
How IRONIC!
"I'm trying to sting you into some feeling of remorse for what you are doing, and hoping that you might, after all, educate yourself out of your delusion." - You are trying to tell me what to do and how to think and no one has the right to do that to anyone else!
Do you send your insulting opinions to all the well known authors/speakers who believe and talk about chemtrails or do you only post your one-sided opinion and rudeness on the sites of people like me and those who post chemtrail videos? And if you feel that America and the UK would find my opinions illegal, then if you are right then it only goes to show that these countries are fascist non-democratic police states, which many believe anyway.
When we first met I thought we could get on well but clearly I was wrong. I do not like arguments and this is what this is. We had a big falling out before in which I deleted you at Myspace and swore and you have detailed that in your blog. I am not going to react with anger that way this time but as you admit here we are no longer friends I will delete you at Myspace. If Kingfisher is ever a money-making success I would see that you got your share. It seems that is all we share.
I am not surprised that people at YouTube and chemtrail sites complain about you if this is an example of how you act. It is not a debate about a subject but a rude verbal assault by you who will not tolerate others having their beliefs or opinions or to post these in public.
How timely.
Tim Flannery, one of Australia's top scientists has proposed that Global Warning could be slowed by injecting sulphur into the top levels of the atmosphere.
He says that it could be put there by mixing it with jet fuel.
This would be called "Global Dimming".
http://www.theage.com.au/news/environment/global-d
Thanks for the link, Eric! Yes, I saw the news on this proposed insanity at Alex Jones' site.
Hi Bard Are you sure that Jazzroc isn't a fox news presenter because he sure does sound like one to me. When they lose their arguments they resort to petty playgrond name calling and insults. Because they have lost the debate and cannot bring an intelligent debate to the table.
As you are aware I take a keen interest in chemtrails. Anyone who tells me they do not exist had better open their eyes and look up to the sky! You would have to be blind not to see them. Over here in the UK they make pretty pictures of chemtrails. We get the noughts and crosses obviously pilots having a game of tic tac toe. Well they have to dump whatever their dumping so they may of well have some fun. We get circles, loads of pretty pictures over here. Does not look to me as if they are planes with people on board and places to go! Why are the planes that are chemtrailing PLAIN White with NO markings! Planes usually advertise who they are up in the skies.
Why has there been a huge increase in breathing problems? Considering less people smoke. Also this new phenomenia Morgellons? Doctors are asking this question too. Also this may have something to do with the honeybee's demise too.
Why does the mainstream media keep silent about chemtrials. If they were ordinary contrails I am sure we would have had something on the media by now trying to debunk the "Chemtrail Theorists" However, their silence is deafening.
Also as many people have noticed our weather is fine until the planes come and low and behold we have rain!
Oh I suppose its all coincidence. I am sorry but there are too many "Coincidences" concerning chemtrails.
Why is jazroc so angry? If he disagree's with you on chemtrails then that is his perogotive. However, to call you all the names he has called you shows he has something to fear.
I wish jazroc could give us some facts andfigures to why you are wrong because he proves nothing. Yes I understand he worked on engines big bloody deal! does not prove a thing!
IF you don't want to believe what is right in front of your eyes. Then that is up to you. However, the best way to hide something is to put it in full view.
When someone throws nasty insults and name calling. Especially to someone who is very well read on his subject. The insult thrower is shown to be what he is. A fool.
Debbie, thank you very much for posting and your support on this! To be fair to Jazzroc, though he doesn't extend much fairness to me, he does provide a lot of info in his blog, which he has provided the link for and is worth reading, however, it doesn't satisfy me or put my worries to rest on the subject, as I have already pointed out. It is a shame that it appears that Jazzroc has got himself excluded from sites where he could be hearing in detail from people living with illnesses they attribute to chemtrails and reports of daily coverage of their skies like get reported at chemtrailtrackingusa group for example. However, it seems that he doesn't want to listen to what others say but just believes he is right so they must be wrong and then he wishes to impose his views on them, which I have called a bigoted approach. When they fail to accept what he says he does what he has done to me - he becomes very rude, threatening and insulting.
I think the point you raise on the media silence is a very valid one. Jazzroc would probably say the media cannot report on something that doesn't exist but I would say the media has reported in great detail on things that don't exist such as the weapons of mass destruction that were never found and other government lies. And if there is nothing to fear from the chemtrails then why doesn't the media get someone who can explain it to do so? Why doesn't Jazzroc volunteer instead of carrying on his barrage of insults and debunking posts? I would have thought the media could call upon scientific 'experts' to explain the matter but they do not do so! Maybe Beck's song Chemtrails will bring the subject into the public mainstream arena where it belongs. According to Wikipedia, his song has been played on BBC R1, which maybe the first time the BBC has used the word chemtrails. I searched their site long ago and it isn't there, although contrails are and defined as harmless.
Debbie Peace Love:
"Are you sure that Jazzroc isn't a fox news presenter" - I'm a retired engineer living fifteen miles away from the Bard in Tenerife. Are you sure you aren't being abusive here?
"open their eyes and look up to the sky" - and you'll see contrails. If you look at the sky you'll see the Sun go round the Earth. Now, DOES the Sun go round the Earth?
"Does not look to me as if they are planes with people on board and places to go!" - You can tell all that from seven miles beneath? You should get a job in Air Traffic Control. They need you!
"Why are the planes that are chemtrailing PLAIN White with NO markings" - Your first unwittingly ignorant question. It's a physical phenomenon called "blue light scattering". Educate yourself. Try WIKI.
"Why has there been a huge increase in breathing problems considering less people smoke?" - Because there has been a huge increase in arable farming, with new crops with new pollens, industry is still increasing using exotic materials with dangerous dusts when cutting and grinding without adequate air filtration, because urban photochemical smogs are still increasing, and finally because power stations are burning less safe materials as the world's oil supplies dwindle. The Western diet of over-processed foods with too much meat and too little fruit, coupled with high-stress levels and poor exercise regimens and contaminated water supplies doesn't help at all. Overall, this is an already complex intermix of factors by itself, requiring a massive statistical effort to sort out - before you come along with IMAGINARY ills.
"Also this new phenomenia Morgellons? Doctors are asking this question too?" - Look it up in WIKI. In Science as a whole, FACTS are established using DUPLICATION of results and PEER REVIEW of research. This HASN'T HAPPENED WITH MORGELLONS' CLAIMS. Ergo - it's NOT Science and NOT TRUE.
"Also this may have something to do with the honeybee's demise too." - May it? See above. You must remember that scientists get famous for discovering things, so the pressures are there to make these discoveries. See above.
"Why does the mainstream media keep silent about chemtrials?" - They have tried it on, burnt their fingers, and won't do it again!
"Also as many people have noticed our weather is fine until the planes come and low and behold we have rain!" - Or perhaps, the humid air that creates the contrails eventually causes rain?
"Oh I suppose its all coincidence. I am sorry but there are too many "Coincidences" concerning chemtrails." - There are too many "coincidences" in the minds of those that are deluded!
"Why is jazzroc so angry?" - I should cheer when ignorant "Chicken Littles" accuse innocent people of attempted mass murder, should I?
"to call you all the names he has called you shows he has something to fear." - Of course I have something to fear! STUPIDITY is a DANGEROUS thing in a technological world!
"I wish jazzroc could give us some facts and figures to why you are wrong because he proves nothing." - I doubt whether you could appreciate proof if you met it. You need a modicum of scientific understanding which you've already demonstrated you don't have. However, there's always WIKI and http://jazzroc.wordpress.com
"Yes I understand he worked on engines big bloody deal! does not prove a thing!" - A bit more than that, dear. I'm a scientist. And an artist. And a musician.
"IF you don't want to believe what is right in front of your eyes. Then that is up to you. However, the best way to hide something is to put it in full view." - The sun - does it ACTUALLY go round the earth?
"When someone throws nasty insults and name calling." - They need to be STOPPED! Your hypocrisy is showing! Or hadn't you noticed that CHEMTRAILS insults hard-working, decent professional people (and anyone else who has a modicum of commonsense)?
"Especially to someone who is very well read on his subject. The insult thrower is shown to be what he is. A fool." - All that glitters is not gold. You may read, but you patently do not understand. A fool is what YOU are.
Bard:
"it doesn't satisfy me or put my worries to rest on the subject" - You demand to be spoon-fed scientific understanding, but it doesn't come that way. You must study for years for such understanding to arrive. If you DO NOT HAVE this understanding, you will NEVER be satisfied.
In the interim, perhaps you could moderate your pseudo-scientific assertions....
"he could be hearing in detail from people living with illnesses they attribute to chemtrails - it seems that he doesn't want to listen to what others say" - I thought it was I that was the insulting person. I have read what people have said, and it is obvious that there is no direct link. We ALL breathe in a mass of dusts, pollens, viruses and bacteria with every breath we take. Our bodies have a tolerance for doing this which has been EARNED by the deaths of countless millions of our predecessors over four billion years.
"I have called a bigoted approach" - The correct approach to YOUR "chemtrail" bigotry.
"he becomes very rude, threatening and insulting" - How is it that you continually forget the nature of your claim? Why can't you see that you ARE what you claim ME to be?
"why doesn't the media get someone who can explain it to do so?" - Because it is too difficult and boring a job for them (they would LOSE ratings)!
"the media could call upon scientific 'experts' to explain the matter" - I am such an expert. How successful am I?
"contrails are and defined as harmless" - And of course they are. It is YOUR BEHAVIOUR that is harmful.
Jazzroc, I will let Debbie reply to you here if she so wishes.
I would ask you this: if what you say are harmless contrails and harmless cloud cover resulting from them cut out the sunlight getting through do you not think it is likely to affect bee navigational ability when it has been established by SETI that sunlight is the main navigation tool for the insects? Please see: http://www.setiai.com/archives/000064.html
So whether its water vapour converted to ice or toxic particles the result is surely the same - less light gets through. This can be clearly seen when sun halos form as they do now we have these trails so often in the sky!
Really, Bard, I wonder what happens when you address yourself to read something!
I could answer your question from my internal understanding, but just in case there was a built-in trick I addressed myself to the text in question, and found it answered your question completely!
"if what you say are harmless contrails and harmless cloud cover resulting from them cut(ting) out the sunlight getting through do you not think it is likely to affect bee navigational ability when it has been established by SETI that sunlight is the main navigation tool for the insects?"
NO. Like all navigating animals on Earth, bees are NOT reliant on the visible Sun for navigation. Any such creatures that were SOLELY reliant upon the Sun would have been rendered extinct by the first large volcanic outburst or cometary impact than obscured the Sun for a sufficiently large period. And there been quite a few of these over the preceding 500,000,000 years.
Bees sense the Sun, polarized light, landscape features, magnetic fields, and use two techniques of distance measurement (the latter one "optical flow" is new to me, but entirely unsurprising). What follows is a direct quote from the article: "All of these senses are redundant. That is to say, remove any one of them and the bee will probably still be able to navigate without problems. When the sun is obscured by clouds or trees, but patches of blue sky are still visible, the honey bee is able to use polarized light as a backup navigation system. The light coming directly from the sun is unpolarised. Some of this sunlight, however, is scattered by air molecules and a pattern of polarized light is set up in the sky. This pattern consists of a roughly circular set of gradients centered around the sun. The polarization is at its most intense at a 90' angle from the sun. By detecting the polarization angle bees are able to infer the location of the sun. Exactly how they manage to do this is still unknown."
Did you actually READ this? It ANSWERS the question you put to me! Do you know what "redundant" means in this context?
"So whether it's water vapour converted to ice or toxic particles the result is surely the same - less light gets through." - Here you once again demonstrate your scientific ignorance.
"Toxic particles" cannot flow through the gas-turbine injectors. Injectors are hardened steel precision-ground tubes with very small internal diameters. Flow-control valves also clog if fine solids pass through them. In fact, they must both be protected by a high-capacity low-micron filter, which, of course, would stop solids. DUSTS PUT OUT ENGINES.
Passenger aircraft are built down to a price by civilian businesses. Their wings contain spars, tanks and control equipment. They are built to very tight tolerances and riveted or glued down firmly. They do not have "empty spaces" and "extra pumps and nozzles" built into them for CHEMICAL ATTACK.
"Less light gets through" - It has been demonstrated by two different scientists using two different techniques in two different parts of the Earth that incident sunlight falling on the earth has been reduced by at least 15% over the last forty years. It is attributed to the industrial revolution, not just in the west, but in the middle and far east - it's the consequence of COMBUSTION IN GENERAL. It is known that the contribution of air travel is between 1 and 2% of this.
"This can be clearly seen when sun halos form as they do now we have these trails so often in the sky!" - The Sun has formed halos in the Earth's stratosphere for four-and-a half billion years. The ice crystals that form such a halo are PURE. Any more than the single nucleating molecule at its centre (which every water droplet or ice crystal needs to form at all) and crystal formation is interfered with, and the halo effect disappears also.
You should know this, Steve, as we FREQUENTLY see halo effects round both Sun and Moon here, but NEVER when the KALIMA dust is in the sky.
Hadn't you noticed?
Yes, I know what redundant means but was thinking that if sunlight is the main tool then this could be what has messed them up and I note that they are OK here where we do not get many trails or blanket coverage with artificial cloud. Back in the UK where I went I saw trails and white cloud covering large areas made by these trails and the bees have nearly vanished so I joined the dots.
You make an excellent point about the halos and I know that they are dependent on water vapour so dust (or particles) should not produce this effect. I have to admit what you say makes sense to me on that.
If soldid particles cannot go through the engines, which makes sense to me too, how did Teller's sunscreen proposal work or this new madness by Prof Flannery of wanting to use sulphur? To my knowledge both aluminium (Teller) and sulphur (Flannery) are solids.
I assume that these substances would be sprayed from tanks with nozzles etc that you say are not in passenger planes but whilst that may well be the case, what about military planes? Surely they can have these adaptations?
"I know what redundant means but was thinking that if sunlight is the main tool" - and there's your paradox - "redundant" means "if removed, function persists".
"blanket coverage with artificial cloud" - All these clouds are cirrus. In supersaturated air the ice crystals of cirrus clouds, whether natural or man-made contrails, will gain weight and fall until they become diffuse clouds of water droplets (stratus) or if they reach the ground - fog. This fog, whatever its origination, is practically pure water. The impurities (and we're talking fractions of a percent here) will be soot (from a gas turbine) or aluminium silicate (from the land) or methyl sulfide (from the sea).
NONE of these will poison bees. The most likely killer of bees is a virus. The second most likely killer is a bacterium. The third most likely is a fungus. The fourth most likely is another strain of bees. Use your commonsense. Cities and industrial landscapes occupy about 2% of the Earth's surface area - there may be cumulative effects for which they share a worldwide responsibility, like increasing proportions of carbon and sulfur dioxides in the air, but aircraft have only a 2% share in this. It is more likely that Nature itself is killing the bees.
It is very unfortunate (but obviously true) that these bee enemies are also arranged in the order of being the most difficult to discover. You have to remember (if you ever knew) that due to the incredible scales involved, finding a specific lethal bacterium on a bee might be like finding a single unknown person in a city, and that finding a single lethal virus on a bee (it might be INSIDE a bacterium!) might be like finding a single unique person on Earth - namely VERY much harder than finding a needle in a haystack - in fact well-nigh impossible.
"I joined the dots" - but only the dots you could see...
"how did Teller's sunscreen proposal work or this new madness by Prof Flannery of wanting to use sulphur" - Teller's proposal was never answered. Flannery's was to use rockets, but this engineer can tell you now that the whole proposal was flaky, and very much more likely to do harm than good. After all, what is acid rain? (Er - sulfur dioxide meets water - makes sulfuric acid!) How good is THAT for trees?
"To my knowledge both aluminium (Teller) and sulphur (Flannery) are solids" - It isn't impossible to turn both into organic liquids. Sulfur is fairly easy, aluminium difficult and expensive. (Barium is much more difficult and is so dense and reactive that specially-lined tanks and mechanical stirrers would be required!)
However on the scale of the Earth you can forget it. I've told you already that a single shot of barium for the Earth would require 3.4 million tons. That's for a single pass... Can you envisage the US (and who else could it be?) shelling up for 85,000 KC105 tanker flights on a weekly basis, when its economy is about to go down the tubes? The whole idea is ridiculous. The surface area of the Earth is fifty times larger than the United States.
"what about military planes?" - It's your best argument, but doesn't pan out when you consider the logistics. See above.
You say you have read my blog. I can tell you're not telling me the truth, for this is thoroughly answered there, and here I'm forced to repeat myself.
As I have said before, Steve, you cannot defeat me using scientific argument, because I know the science involved. If you really get down to basics (and of course you can't!) I would fight you all the way and still end up the winner.
Your side knows this and has found other ways to defeat me - by blocking, by corruption, by fraud, by lying. But never by science. Blocking and corruption are beyond my powers to overcome, but occasionally I have defeated fraud. And lies are easy to deal with.
What I would like for you to do (apart from stopping making all these false assertions!) is come up with questions which really challenge me, and not questions which any book on atmospheric physics or topical science programme can answer.
And here is one for you. In my blog there is a link to a fascinating British invention which provides a safe, easy, cheap and reversible method of controlling and reducing Global Warming.
What is it?
Tony, I have had a big realisation and not sure how I missed this apart from by association - I saw trails and white hazy skies and sun halos and my logic said the halos were caused by what was in the trails. However, because I was believing the trails were bad I was assuming the halos had to be too and had read how they are a sign in the Hopi system of the end of this system which added to my belief they are bad. But in doing this I was failing to see something I know - that halos form when there is water vapour, not when there is dust or particles. Therefore, looking at this now it means that the white trails and white artificial cloud cover would appear to be, as you and other non CT-believers have said, water vapour turning to ice crystals! This means that "chembows" would also be made of water. This means a lot that I have been believing was wrong!
Crumbs, Steve.
Answers like this REALLY pull the rug out from under my feet! I am so accustomed to dogged argument that I don't really know now what to say. :-)
Except, of course, that there is much more to this than what we have covered so far, and even if "chemtrails" don't exist, then for sure most ills suffered by both Man and Nature are STILL down to Man!
My point all the way through my "campaign" against "chemtrails" is that WHILE "chemtrails" are the focus of attention, the REAL problems are NOT ADDRESSED.
Namely, people ARE suffering from lung and skin allergic reactions, and possibly dying. These people will be the young, the old, the poor, and people who have already been weakened by some other disease. Not having "media share", they can slip away without causing a stir or attracting attention. Awful. And I'm fairly sure that's happening, not from any particular facts I possess (except perhaps my own intense allergy to Britain's summer months!), but from a half-century of experience in the ways of the world.
I have watched the quality of Britain's air, water, and food drop decade by decade. And the quality of life! The fuddy-duddy "Empah" values, stiff-upper-lip, reserve, and artificial politeness PRESERVED a life quality we have LOST. Lack of stress! Peace!
I'm also concerned about CARS.
In the sixties the Conservative transport minister Dr. Beeching removed half our rail network. This rail network was a web of railway that reached to every town and virtually every village in the country. It was a fabulous real estate asset because it was JOINED UP, and could hence be converted - perhaps into a clean and efficient tramway, or a road, or a canal, or an information highway. Or maybe left as part of a modern automatic railway. Well, once broken up and flogged off as packets of land no longer joined up, that which cost the Victorians SO much trouble was cast to the wind...
In the seventies there was the Oil Crisis, when the price of oil tripled overnight. "Now" I thought "there is bound to be a drive towards light and efficient people movers!" What did we build? 4 by 4's, juggernauts as big and heavy as the monsters built in the US during the fifties!
The SUPERMARKET "juggernauts" drove across our valleys in the eighties, removing trees and hedges and small-holdings in their factory-farming "techno-park" drive to produce consistently-sized, brightly-coloured, poisoned, tasteless "vegetable" (or "animal") pap, leaving in their wake air filled with herbicides, pesticides, and pollens, and sordid concentration camps of bird and animal suffering.
And then the cars. Without a decent railway or bus system or information system we were forced into cars. (Not you, Steve, I know.) Thousands of cars. MILLIONS of cars. On occasion the M25 was a stationary six-lane CAR PARK (with all engines running) for a HUNDRED MILES. What in God's Name sort of LUNACY is THAT?
Cars, poisoned air, poisoned water, denatured food, the mass-torture of birds and animals. Rudeness in public. Temporary and demeaning employment. Fraud in Banking and Insurance. Mortgage and Equity crises. Lying politicians. Foreign war. STRESS... BRITAIN!
Chemtrails are simply (apart from their nonexistence) SURPLUS TO REQUIREMENT.
The anti-GW invention is the salt-spray trimaran of Dr. Stephen Salter. Apart from turning the skies of the southern Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian oceans somewhat leaden (and reducing the violence of storms in the area, and providing refuge for shipwrecked sailors) these devices do no harm whatsoever. Only fifty of them are needed, and they can be switched off overnight if that were necessary.
Tony, please see the update I have added. I can admit I was wrong about a lot of it and felt I should make a public statement here explaining my reasoning. Thank you, because in the course of this I have understood how I was ignoring facts or overriding them due to my belief in the basic chemtrail conspiracy and my mistrust in scientists and official authorities. I would think that has happened with many of the other people who haven't given you a chance or really read all you have had to say!
"This means a lot that I have been believing was wrong!" - Steve, that was a gracious (and almost unique!) apology which temporarily took my breath away. It is unusual for a "chemtrail" adherent to back down over anything. The only previous instance I can recall was - you - about a year ago.
Yet, after that, you soon got into full swing again.
So may we look at your phrase "a lot that I have been believing" and pick it apart a little? Can you now be believing that yes, there ARE poisons being dispensed, but they DON'T make white lines in the sky? Perhaps you now believe that no, they CAN'T be passenger planes, but they CAN be military KC105 tankers which are NOT laying visible trails? Invisible trails of WHAT might these be? Do you know how many KC105s there are - compared with the number required to carry out Edward Teller's proposal? (ET - the original "Strangelove"!) NOT ENOUGH. Not enough tankers, not enough fuel, not enough barium.
Did you notice the satellite image of the whole of the North Atlantic Ocean in my blog that showed contrails as a grid of white lines concentrated ONLY over the middle of the ocean (where there was a huge north-south cold front!) with virtually no contrails over the land anywhere? If they were "spraying", WHY would that occur?
Did you see the "chemtrailer" version of a (on-off) "gap" in a contrail that was patently photoshopped into existence?
Did you see the Sciechimiche video claiming to be the inside of a "spraying" aircraft which was "fabricated" from a photo of the interior of the Boeing 777 Long Range Prototype, which at the time contained interconnected barrels of water (in place of the seating) for directly testing the consequences of varying its centre of gravity?
I hope you COMPLETELY understand that there is NOT A SINGLE WORD OF TRUTH in ANY PART of the "chemtrail conspiracy", and that some of the "claimants" are NOT DELUDED but actively FRAUDULENT.
And "Geo-engineering" is not necessarily a dirty word...http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fg7J8P-uXqMYes
Steve, I looked at your stop press, and it warmed my heart to see it. But it is an afterword in your Hub entitled "Are Chemtrails Real, and Contrails a Con?", so I suppose the end results of this episode may still be deleterious, and a distraction from solving our true difficulties.
I hope you will soon return to your laudable activities in the fields and woods of permaculture, wildlife, wild foods, conservation and Nature.
I will have a look at that video now! I do not claim to know how many planes the miltary has or where they hold them. I have seen the "inside a tanker" video you refer to and am well aware of the reality of that episode having been caught up in it personally online. I read a lot of the conspiracy authors and watch their lectures and the majority have included chemtrails as a reality and I find it hard to believe they are all knowingly lying, especially when I know that much of the other material covered is true. So I have to conclude they blind themselves as I have done. I have taken down my STOP CHEMTRAILS banners at Myspace because they show trails which you have convinced me are water vapour and until anyone can prove anything to the contrary I am as of now not promoting CTs as a reality. In fact when I have the time I will do a rewrite of what I have posted above here probably and stick it on Myspace. JazzRoc was he right? Yes, but nobody wanted to know!
I would much prefer to stick to things I do know about such as nature but in this case I got involved in it by seeing skies that are not as they used to be, which you have convinced me is caused by far more water being in them, and I assume this was the case when this happened before as you have detailed regarding past occurrences of persistent contrails.
I see that "Yes" arrived appended to the link I offered regarding the topic of Geo-Engineering. The correct link is:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fg7J8P-uXqM
Sorry about that!
Yes, I couldn't find it - thanks. I will have a look now.
I notice that you'll find on the YouTube co-display page an article by Alex Jones concerning the Sun's role in Global Warming, where he suggests this coming Solar Cycle will show the Sun's brightness increasing by 50%.
In the 4.6 billion years (and 200 million solar cycles) since the Sun and its solar system formed, the Sun has increased its brightness by (I think) 27%.
This means that the mean brightness increase of the Sun per cycle is 0.000000135%.
The Sun is not yet middle-aged in terms of its own life, and is expected to burn for another 10 billion years before it dies. It is proceeding smoothly, and showing just its usual behaviour - a tiny increase every cycle.
It strains credibility to believe that THIS Solar cycle brightness increase is going to be 370 BILLION times greater...
So how can Alex Jones say this? Perhaps he isn't a scientist, but I've just sat down with a calculator and rattled out the figures - and you can do it too.
What sort of lunacy is this? Why does it happen these days? Where is the ACTION here? What's the REAL agenda?
I saw that video. Alex says all sorts - a lot of it right and some of it wrong and as you say he is not a scientist which he admits! He is a good showman and a very successful alternative broadcaster and many people say all sorts of things about him good and bad. I have listened to him a lot over the years but not so much in recent months although I subscribe to his blog at Myspace, and I find myself knowing AJ supporters and others who are against him.
To answer your question why this is happening - there is the conspiracy theory that would tell you it is all part of the Illuminati Great Work of Ages plan and has been designed to be like this or maybe it's just because a vast number of people want answers and are fed up with lies from politicians, governments, world leaders, religions, scientists, global manufacturers, and the media. Alex is one of many who provide answers so he has a ready audience. People have distrust in traditional leaders and 'experts' and want new ones - it's been going this way for a long time and I would personally say a lot started in the sixties when people began looking for alternative ways and wanted to change the system. It's when I got involved.
first off i would like to say i am new to this subject and at present not swayed either way,but i have read both side's to this argument and the continuing argument between bard and jazzroc, jazzroc by your standards i am extremly uneducated,but reading the post's here by both you and bard i am dissapointed in the way in which such an educated person argue's there point,firstly it seems you pick on a sentance and then dis-credit it as much as possible by insulting everything it implys, its like reading a list of insults rather than a fair and equal argument,and no doubt you will do the same to this comment picking up on bad spelling, grammer and such saying how uneducated i am,but i am and i can admit this,allso you claim to be a scientist yet your views are firmly set with no room for change,does science not show us now that the impossible is possible?does history not show us that science get's it wrong time and time again? you are everything that is wrong with science today! science is an ever changing and growing subject and needs open-minded people for its progression,and yes this has been a bit of a snipe at you maybe un-fairly,but try looking at things from a different point of view for a change,for if there is one thing life has taught me is that there is allways 2 sides to everything! and if we point blank refuse to look at one side we become lost in own delusions.
Thanks for your thought, unknown! Perhaps JazzRoc will reply to your points?
"does science not show us now that the impossible is possible?"
NO. The impossible has been shown forever to be, and to have been, impossible. The Universe is consistent to the laws we have uncovered to as far as we can see, which is to a distance of thirteen and a half billion light years. There are NO other rules operating other than the ones we have uncovered - other than the rules we HAVEN'T uncovered!
"does history not show us that science gets it wrong time and time again?"
YES. And THEN it gets it RIGHT. Consider how you and your mother avoided death when you were born, and all the other aspects of your material existence which "wrong" science has got "right", and contrived to make your life OTHER than "nasty, brutish, and short"! Consider the means by which you argue here. Consider that once I worked in a team to develop this means.
"you are everything that is wrong with science today!"
Well, thanks. Had I known this, perhaps I would have have NOT designed the world's first ethernet transceiver. Perhaps PEOPLE are what's wrong with science. Perhaps you are a victim (already) of a dumbing-down process I saw begun in the early seventies. Perhaps you are also a victim of fiscal policy (namely the total surrender of "democratic" western governments to private banking interests). But you are NO victim of mine!
I have been in opposition to every wicked and deleterious policy change I've seen occur since I've ever been able to vote. That's almost EVERY CHANGE THAT HAS BEEN MADE. I opposed entry into the Common Market (Britain should be strong and self-sufficient and independent), I opposed the Conservative Selsdon Committee (that dumbed YOU down!), I opposed the destruction of the Engineering, Shipbuilding, Mining and Machine Tool Industries, I opposed the Falklands War, I opposed the destruction of the Coal Mines, I opposed the idea that Britain could be a Fiscal Service for the World (ridiculous!), I opposed the rapid exploitation of North Sea Gas (further destroying the mining industry), I opposed the feeding of meat to cows, I opposed the idea that GM pollinating plants merely needed a 20-yard separation (!), and I opposed entry into the Iraqi war. Then I LEFT THE COUNTRY.
I had become VERY FED UP of being ROBBED (in ALL uses of that term) CONTINUALLY over a forty-year period. Even now I am close to destitute, as employment is hard to find for a sixty-four-year-old Welshman without money or transport in a Spanish fishing resort village. But it is warm here, and I am close to my grandson, and my needs are few. I shall soon create a solar home and permaculture food garden and achieve true self-sufficiency.
"science is an ever changing and growing subject and needs open-minded people for its progression"
Can't disagree with you here! Of course, it is necessary to point out that to be "open-minded" requires that one is EDUCATED in the first place. Otherwise one merely "opens" an EMPTY mind...
"and yes this has been a bit of a snipe at you maybe un-fairly"
Completely.
"but try looking at things from a different point of view for a change"
Well, I'm a qualified engineer and industrial designer and practise those disciplines. Now I compose music. The idea of a "different point of view" is QUITE POPULAR with engineers, designers, musicians! It helps CREATE NEW THINGS.
"for if there is one thing life has taught me is that there is always 2 sides to everything!"
Science isn't a democratic debate. There is ONLY a CORRECT side and an INCORRECT side. Life hasn't taught you ANYTHING, it seems...
"and if we point blank refuse to look at one side we become lost in own delusions"
No, you HOLD ONE.
I'd like to point out that if I'm arguing with an American it really makes no difference - the same evil and wicked policies are maintained by both Britain and the States. If the cap fits...
ok,well you have indeed made some valid points against what i have said to you,and claiming that you are everything wrong with science today was unfair and i apologize for that comment,but to say i have been dumbed down is allso a bit much,and when i talk of the impossible being possible one reference comes to mind and that is of quantum physics, but i will say thankyou for your reply and your comments and will discuss this more in dew course
oh and just to clear that last part up,i am definatly not an american,i would like to say that my original comment was posted mainly for the way in which you come across,it is a littel offensive in all honesty,and it bugged me,in reality i was not having ago at your abilities as a human being but more for the way that you put your point across,and somewhere in there i shall admit that i got a litte lost and sidetracked from the point i was getting at.
I accept your apology.
Quantum physics does at first seem as though the impossible may be possible, but there is a fantastic SCALE effect at work here.
The scale of quantum physics is so small and local (and quick!) that the distances involved in organic molecules eg., from ONE peptide bond to the NEXT in a DNA molecule, become equivalent to the distances between stars.
All the "magic" is taking place in a "storm" (which is not even of microscopic size!) which on the whole averages out as - "non-magic" - nothing.
I am a Star Trek fan, and believe that "beam me up Scotty" (etc.) has tended to convince non-scientists that these types of events may some day be within the reach of scientists.
These programmes are FANTASIES. Their "science" (in almost all cases!) is poor. One isn't looking at a possible future -at all.
It is quite wrong to mix up a blend of fear of the US govt with fanciful ideas with radio stations (HAARP), barium stearate powders ("chemtrails"), "nanotechnology", "mindcontrol", aliens, and what-have-you, instead of finding the real solutions to lung and skin diseases.
The solutions will be found using Science, not Fantasy.
In the meanwhile "chemtrails" are a harmful distraction, an additional problem.
hey i'm from new zealand and they spray us here too. i know that they are definately spraying something because you can't turn a contrail on and off. we also see up to 4 planes spraying at once, they do a run across the city then turn around and spray again.
i notice on days when they spray that all my flatmates seem to be more agitated and depressed.
it seems to affect the wind. because our city usually is really windy and gets SE and N prevailing winds. but over the last 3 years the winds are coming from weird directions and it is hardly ever windy anymore
i have also seen the rainbows in the fake clouds too
i heard that there is a secret haarp installation here too
Steve, please have a look at contrailscience and JazzRoc's blogs - the links are here to provide info.
But basically you just seeing ice crystals forming the trails and fake cloud. They do not turn them on or off but are moving from one layer of the sky to another and if there is no water vapour present to crystallise as ice then you see no trail and it looks as if its turned off.
The rainbow effects are caused again by ice crystals - there are no forms of dust or particles metallic or otherwise that will cause this.
It is likely that people are depressed and agitated by seeing the trails because if what they have heard about them as a danger and because it is something they have not seen until recently. However, there is nothing to fear apart from fear itself and the reason we see all these trails is because the sky has far more water in it and there are far far more planes up there.
I am emailing you to inform you of a strike that is being organized on July 4th 2008 against the New World Order and the spraying of chemicals in our skies. I am hoping to reach as far as I can with the message that there are good people out there who really want to change things. We all need to support each other and create a the kind of world it should be. Please spread the word of change and promote this website after all this affects us all. Please visit www.freewebs.com/changetheworldforever for more info. We need to change what is happening to our world and to our skies, for the sake of ourselves and for generations to come.
H2O is a greenhouse gas and that cannot combat global warming.
I didn't read jazzroc's comments and can't help wonder if he flies the planes.
Pollution does block sunlight from traveling deep into earth but I think there are better ways than pollution to stop global warming WTF!
I'm not sure who said water was combatting global warming so don't really understand the point you are making but I am sure there are far too many planes seeing as they are causing the problem we are seeing and whilst I no longer believe that the trails and artifical clouds are toxic it is still not right at all to have all these tons of ice crystals blotting out the blue skies and sunlight! And many places could desperately use the water down here!
Thanks for your feedback, MD!
The point I was making is frost and mist are h2o, not chem trails.
I am not saying that I believe in one side or the other on this, if you read the blog on myspace I was talking about, it was more detailed.
I do think the theory falls in line with other theories that becoming more factual.
At least, it is more believable than reptilian theories!
Thanks for explaining!
Well, the strange thing is I am no longer a chemtrail believer after several years but I am a reptilian believer, although not so sure about the shapeshifting! I have actually just written over 3,000 words on why I believed in chemtrails and why I no longer do for another project. There was logical thought gone into both my belief and how I finally lost that belief but the most interesting part of it all for me was that when I was a chemtrail-believer I was blocking out seeing some things, which I knew. This was not logical thought but the control over my analytical mind by the belief system I had.
I am going to have to read your conversation with jazzroc when I have more time. I have some chemistry knowledge and would be happy to look at this as logicaly as possible.<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UdtLTyNOB0A&hl=en& /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UdtLTyNOB0A&hl=en& type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
MD, thanks for what you posted but I have deleted it because it appears to be copied and pasted material that can be seen elsewhere online and we are not allowed to have duplicate content on hub pages or the page will lose its ranking and no one will get to read it anyway which defeats the purpose. It would have been better posted as a link which are allowed so please post links in future.
As for the video it is just like all the others of which I have seen hundreds. They all are claiming that the trails are chemtrails and I no longer accept that so there is nothing to fear from them for myself or others who do not believe.
As for finding cures for the illnesses said to be caused by chemtrails this is an impossibility if the chemtrails do not exist and are merely ice which simply messes the sky up. The illnesses and symptoms are caused by many other things and obviously need to be cured but personally I see no point blaming the trails and I no longer do so.
BTW as an example, I have had chronic sinus problems that I believed to be caused by chemtrails. I no longer believe this and have concluded that the problem is caused by my deviated septum, which two doctors said was the reason. I have found a cure - salt water dropped down my nasal passages.
No big deal about the deleted posts, I didn't feel comfortable puting the article up there. i would've sent a link but the profile I found it on is set to private so I do not think I could send a link. It was a lot longer of a article but I am not intent on changing your mind.
The fascinating part I thought, was the evolving DNA.
I started classes this week so I am becoming too busy for this subject. If I come across any proof you haven't heard of I will send you a myspace message with a link.
Lots of things can cause asthma and sinus problems, nearby trains using deisel, car pollution, airports, pollen. See you on another topic friend!
Yes, lots of things present in the modern world can and do produce symptoms like sinus problems and asthma that get blamed on chemtrails!
Yes, there are all manner of theories about DNA - depends who you agree with really! Michael Tsarion says we all have alien DNA mixed with human and that is the root cause of evil in the world. It's a good explanation.
Michael doesn't think there are any saviours for the world condition but ourselves and I am inclined to agree with him on both counts. This is our nightmare and we have to deal with it!
hey. i hear planes at the same time every morning. I live in gwealod y garth in cardiff.
we have had some really heavy downpours but i gues the rain is everywhere anyway.
I have uncontrollable burny sneezing fits random spates & ive never had hayfever. Could be dust but i think i would be sneezing all of the time if was. my sleep patterns change and i feel different when i drink tap water.
I know Gwaelod y Garth very well - a beautiful place!
No, rain at all here - in fact a drought!
I hope the tap water doesn't have fluoride in it like it does in many places now - a much worse threat than chemtrails, which I don't any more believe exist!
Sneezing is caused by many things and there are countless things which people are allergic to with cats, house dust mites and many types of pollen being a few. In many places people are exposed to pollens like oil seed rape that is a fairly new crop that is being cultivated on a wide scale.
If these don't exist howcome there is this chemtrail tracking site I go to that tells you when they will be here and when they won't be here and it's dead on 90% of the time? How would this guy know if they did not exist? I mean I think they do exist and they are up to something up there, what it is I have no clue but I have heard both sides of the argument and use common sense when I look up and I know these are different from the contrails I see on some days. Some days I see contrais and then these all over the sky. Jazzroc and his arguments are not going to sway me from these things or make it like they don't exist, like the devil they exist and they don't want you to know it. I am staying believing and studying these and reading about them. Some say they know some who fly and say they do spray these things and think it is for our good, some say it's just schaff and the military does spray it to jam radar, check those out in youtube. It has been on the news in Cali as well and weather channels if you look for it, so people do know and are up on these things, not enough people but some know. BTW as for the tracking site, I would put it up but some idiot will try to get it taken down if they are with the GOVT. or looking to keep these a wrap, I think I will pass but thats NO LIE. He tells when they will be spraying, and bottom line it happens.
Please post the tracking site here!
As far as I am concerened it is simple to predict when trials will occur if you know flight paths. The problem with the subject is that chemtrail believers call persistent contrails "chemtrails" and non-believers call them contrails. And it is a belief system because I am a past believer and it was very hard for JazzRoc to get me to seethe logic of his arguments! I am now a non-believer.
I could give you an example of predicting trails: at around 10am on Sundays in winter but not in summer a plane goes across where I live and it leaves a long lasting trail that I used to call a chemtrail. Pics I have posted of this believers call a chemtrail, as I did. But now if I see the same trail and accept it as a persistent contrail of ice crystals. Conditions have changed and we are now seeing persistent trails which we have not been used to seeing and we have been led by those propagting the chemtrail belief to call them chemtrails but they are simply long lasting trails of ice crystals I now believe.
JazzRoc is a well known DISINFORMIST. He magically appears at any discussion of atmospheric manipulation discussion and thwarts it with local fallacy pseudo-science, mostly released as countermeasures to chemtrail discussion. BEWARE!!
Bard of Ely, i still can't believe how easily you've been pushed over.
As I have explained before JazzRoc is none of the things people claim he is! He is someone I know personally and have met many times and actually worked on music with as well as having enjoyed walks around the island here. But people post other opinions about him when they know nothing about him apart from the fact that he does not believe in chemtrails.
If you read what I have written you will find that my belief in the subject was already on shaky grounds when I found that the air in South Wales under "chemtrailed" skies was cleaner than usual not badly polluted. At the time I couldn't understand this as I had been led to believe by chemtrailers that the air was being poisoned. Clearly it was not the case. I have not seen any evidence for chemtrails as a reality apart from all the videos, photos, reports etc by chemtrail believers and what I used to think were chemtrails. I have concluded that the chemtrail belief system is a disinformation campaign itself and a very successful one.
bard you are so easily swayed 911 was genocide the powers that be only look at us as slaves and thats why we live longer jazzric has such an inflated ego he must be a fox reporter and he worked on so many projects like concord ha what with all his education thats all he has done for mankind basically helped pollute the world.
Great hub, Bard. I fall into the first category, too. I guess that makes me a loon ;)
Thanks futonfraggle! Have you seen my other hub on the subject?
Not yet. I'm going to swing over there now. You've written about a lot of interesting topics. I'm about to dive in!
Mind control techniques use associations to intelligence and the clever "scientist" to convince people something is right. Disbelivers of conspiracy theories want to align themselves to this plot to keep their self worth high. People who resist this form of mind control are deemed stupid or mental or belonging to a terrorist organization. This response is part of the mind control agenda. Research and development is in itself driven by propaganda and corruption and you have to be free from over education to see through the persistent half truths we are given.It is the moderately educated and those free from mind controlled beliefs systems such as nothing exists unless there is evidence for it who can join the dots better. Listen to them as they have free thinking ability and intuition. Real scientists often just churn out contrived rubbish like politicians to pacify the masses.
Thanks for posting! BTW it may surprise you to know that David de Rothschild, a man that conspiracy theorists do not approve of, agrees that the persistent cloud cover is a threat and says so in his book The Global Warming Survival Handbook. He calls the trails contrails though as do I now. Here's David: "Contrails - those pretty, white water-vapour ribbons in the sky - trap heat in the atmosphere as efficiently as CO2 does and may also encourage the formation of heat-trapping, high altitude cirrus clouds."
i havent heard about this before.
Well, I am glad to have brought the matter to your attention! Thanks for posting!
nojustno:
"bard you are so easily swayed" - Not in my experience. We had an argument which lasted several months, won by myself on the point of ice haloes never occurring in a "dusty" atmosphere..
"911 was genocide" - No, it was terrorism.
"the powers that be only look at us as slaves and thats why we live longer" - The first part of that has been true since pre-history. The reason why we live longer is that we have benefited from four hundred years of SCIENCE.
"jazzric has such an inflated ego he must be a fox reporter" - I reckon that anyone who makes pronouncements without correct (or any) information has an inflated ego.
"and he worked on so many projects like concord ha what with all his education thats all he has done for mankind basically helped pollute the world." - Not at all. Today's jets are clean and efficient. I have worked also on the ethernet technology that powers the web. My last work before my retirement was on the Ford "Think" electric car.
Try not to be so consistently WRONG.
sasina06:
"Mind control techniques use associations to intelligence and the clever "scientist" to convince people something is right." - They may do. But knowledge of the science of the atmosphere is available to YOU. You merely have to use a LIBRARY. You can check every one of my statements THERE.
"Disbelievers of conspiracy theories want to align themselves to this plot to keep their self-worth high." - A statement entirely true of believers. "People who resist this form of mind control are deemed stupid or mental or belonging to a terrorist organization." - I'm not sure about the latter, but the former part is true, isn't it? You HAVEN'T gone to a library to check out the facts about air travel and the atmosphere - have you?
"This response is part of the mind control agenda. Research and development is in itself driven by propaganda and corruption" - What, co-operative research led by multi-national groups of scientists? How might THAT be achieved?
"you have to be free from over-education to see through the persistent half-truths we are given." - That's the deadliest advocacy for ignorance I have witnessed in a while. Science is available to all of us. It is based on observable facts which are quite unlike your malevolent innuendo.
"It is the moderately-educated and those free from mind-controlled beliefs systems such as nothing exists unless there is evidence for it who can join the dots better." - NO-ONE ever controlled MY belief system. Seems like somebody's controlling YOURS.
"Listen to them as they have free-thinking ability and intuition." - Ah, something true at last.
"Real scientists often just churn out contrived rubbish like politicians to pacify the masses." - The reputation of scientists depends on the lasting nature of their work. Any scientist doing what YOU think they do would be out of business in NO time.
It seems your "moderate education" is INADEQUATE. Rectify this.
SweetiePie says:
2 years ago
Informative hub. I learned something new.