Bible Thumpers
59Why do we still believe this stuff?
Humans may be a crazy species, but we usually discard the junk that doesn't work for us. People invented science to answer the questions about why we are here and what, if anything, our lives mean. Man, have we ever messed up on that last question!
Try as we might we can't find any meaning to our lives, and people use that to get you involved in faith and religion. People I know tried for years to convince me that their bible had the answers, that it was true and that people used it to live better lives. I laughed and saw through their fear that they couldn't face the fact that our lives have no meaning at all.
OK, bible thumpers, this is where you start to shout me down. I still can't believe that people put any belief at all in that flawed book, which was written and then edited at every stage. Not all the books that were once in it were accepted by the religious leaders of the time, and translations have more or less taken away much of the meaning that once existed there.
But even beyond that, why should anyone take the thing seriously? Science has already proven much of the mumbo jumbo false, and history has already put to rest any truth the time line and story might have. Jesus was nothing more than one of many men who claimed to be a messiah, and people believed in others besides him.
Now, for all you who live and die by this book, tell me how you are different from those islamic fanatics who use their Koran to justify killing and raping and violence? Tell me why your god should pick out the ancient Hebrews and make them something special out of all the people on earth? Really, religion is little more than a fairy tale meant to make you feel good about yourselves, but in the end, just like santa claus, it's just a lie we tell to ourselves to cover our fear.
Someone once told me about all the good religion did, meaning of course christianity, which they considered the only real religion. I asked them to explain that to people burned alive, or killed in holy wars, or in the 2 thousand years of war between various sects of christianity. Tell me how that is doing what you say your bible tells us is a moral way to live?
People don't need bibles and korans and other holy books to tell them how to be good. They need good teaching by their parents and by schools, and then by others they respect. Enough lying, already! Give up your childish fantasies and grow up and be the kind of human being who looks at and accepts the truth!
Oh, and all of you religious types frightened by socialism, the truth be told, your early christians were simple communists. They lived in communities where everyone had to give up all they owned to a central collective, usually the local saint, who treated them like ignorant children and then told them what to do. Sounds like Stalinist Russia to me!
Save us from ourselves!!!!!
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Civil discourse is the best way. I have many friends here in Spain who don't agree with my ideas but we share cafe con leche and share what we hold true. Thanks for the comment. I'm always up for a bit of fun!
Well, the Spanish did do that whole Inquisition thing!
Yep and that was why Spaniards to day are leaving the church in droves. Franco made it a law that people had to go to church and be indoctrinated in his version of religion, and the people have been turning their backs on it since the early 70's. Believe me, no one is more 'repentant' than a Spaniard about the inquisition and the whole colonial thing in South America. It's a dark chapter in their history and they neither deny it nor try to cover it up like the US did with the history of the native people there, or the laws that kept Irish and Catholics out of society, or Jews from departing Nazi Germany for the US. Thanks for the comment.
Ivan,
I expected more fire and brimstone from the opposition.
My thought is that the scriptures, were written by man, for man and interpreted by man.
God is an option.
BTW, I don't get the whole prophet concept, if you know how the game finishes then why play it.
People haven't changed for the better, not BC or AD.
Hello Ivan the Terrible. I agree with RKHenry that you should check out the Religion Forum. You'll find lots of willing sparring partners over there!
This is a very thought-provoking hub. I don't take the Bible literally. But there are some lovely passages in the Bible that still ring true for today's world. I believe the stories in the Bible are intended as allegory not fact.
Here's the paragraph that struck me in your hub:"... they need good teaching by their parents and by schools, and then by others they respect. Enough lying, already! Give up your childish fantasies and grow up and be the kind of human being who looks at and accepts the truth!"
The fact that organized religion has endured all these centuries tells us that people still need it. Parents have a need to follow some guidebook that they can share/pass down to their children. If they abandon their faith, where will they seek the "truth" as you put it? Whose truth? Faith in God or a Higher Power is the one thing that keeps some people going in a positive rather than negative direction.
Then there is the essential issue. Fear is exactly it. People are afraid. They fear death. Having faith helps them live good lives now so they can have a happier afterlife. Take that away and where is the incentive to tow the line now?
My Dear, Your information is false Science has not proven that a majority of the Bible is False nor falsified for that matter. You need to start watching the History channel as many things have been proven true. "The Ark " "The Burning Bush" "Jesus' Tomb" were he had ressurected. Yes the Bible has been re-written for the laws of man, but what is written is not nonsense, I can attest to my miracles and my maker. I will not start an argument as that is not what Jesus would want me to do. I am human and I am Christian, but I do not push my beliefs on others nor do I try to tell anyone it is the right thing to do. I appreciate your article as you are giving us your thoughts and opinion and that is what counts. It is your right to express your feelings, just like I do mine. You believe there isn't a God and I believe there is. Isn't that what makes the World go round? :)
I am not what you call a "Christian" BUT...The principles that are written in the "Good Book" are sound and have worked in my life when I let them. God given or not. A certain level of Discernment is also helpful. an open mind to open doors so to speak.
Mighty Mom, thanks for the comment. As for religion, any religion, following it does not seem to make people better. Look at how many religious people hate gay people, or people of other faiths or religions. In one Islamic nation they just executed some men who were gay. If America is a Christian nation, as the right wing religious people claim, then why do they not follow their own ideas of love and tolerance? Face it, Christians hate other religions. Other religions hate each other as well. I was visiting my sister, who is big on faith and Christianity and her preacher, whom she adores, said that Islam is false and Mohammed is a liar because only Jesus is the way. He went on to say the Dali Llama is also bound for hell. I remember once a preacher here in Spain said anyone who didn't attend his church would go to hell. Religion seems more like an exclusive club to me.
When Franco was alive in Spain he said that only Catholics went to heaven, and people belived him, and so Protestants like I used to be were shunned, but all of that has changed now that people are free to see the truth that religion is false and that there is nothing but faith that keeps it alive. If faith were to disappear, religion would go away. Just because someone has faith in something does not make it true. How can you prove that god exists? How can you prove that faith is anything but a pitiful need to answer questions that ignores fact and truth?
I do believe that parents are the best source for educating their kids. Schools are the next best thing. My kids were in Spanish schools, and no religious doctrines are allowed to interfer with reality based learning. (That is allowed in Catholic schools, thought.) Yes, it's difficult because some kids want to follow their faith and that's fine so they do that at church. But the schools do not allow any one religion to dominate any aspect of education. Here things like evolution are viewed as fact, and creationism is laughed at as fanatasy and ignorance.
Looking at the truth does not make anyone necessarily a better person, but at least it makes them responsible to fact. Believing in god or gods does not make anyone a better person, and it is based on false pretenses. You can't prove that any god or gods exist, you can only believe that they do, and that to me makes all religions just childish, just like believing in santa claus or the easter bunny. when people are armed with the facts, they can at least make educated decisions about how to live their lives. While religion may offer comfort to others, and that's their right, to me it seems I am more satisfied with knowing the facts, not some group fantasy with a "feel good" but false message.
AEvans, you are entitled to your beliefs and I never want to suggest that I would take that away from you. Thanks for the comment, but even if you can attest to the miracles in your life, they could be just circumstance. I have seen people claim miracles for things that were just pure luck, and I have yet to see heavenly angels coming down to make a persons wishes or prayers come true. Suffice to say that miracles have not been a part of my life. The Christian people who kicked the crap out of me were intolerant and bigoted. Others have told me since then that not all Christians are alike, but neither are all Muslims, yet people in the US seem to hate Muslims as if they are all terrorists.
We can't agree on the truth of religion and that is fine, you believe it is true and I do not, but I live in a world where fact is fact and belief does not make things true. I have seen too many times where people with strong religious beliefs have made others' lives miserable. and it doesn't matter which religion they belong to. In fact, I was raised a methodist and nearly became a Jew because I think they at least actually believe what they say and have some facts to back up their practices. But I realized it's just the same stuff in different packaging so I rejected it until someone can prove to me that anything religious people claim to be true actually is true.
As for history channel, I live in Spain where we don't have that on TV but I have yet to see any proof of Noah's Ark being found, any proof of the burning bush or Jesus' tomb. I do watch some US shows on the Internet, but history channel, from what I've seen of it when visiting relatives in the US seems to be rather one-sided.
Pest, are all the things written in "the good book" really all that good? I can find a lot of stuff that seems pretty evil to me, such as when the Israelites had all the men in a whole tribe submit to being circumcized and then killed them all. What about the new testament stuff about the man and wife who were found to be pilfering funds and they were burned up by righteous anger? And how many millions around the world have died because they didn't follow the correct religion? In Germany a few hundred years back there was a terrible inquisition that makes the familiar but highly over-emphasized Spanish inquisition pale in comparsion. thousands were killed, many more were maimed and tortured and entire villages depopulated due to the wars between believers and "heretics". France suffered terrible internal religious wars when catholic authorities went after heretics and slew entire small cities.
The Muslims call their book holy and sacred and then kill infidels because others do not believe what they follow. Chrsitians kill each other and people of other belierfs because of what is written in you good book. I get some of my communist friends angry when I call their politics a religion, but people following any set doctrine usually tend to think of "us and them" and "them" are usually inferior, evil or some other deragatory thing.
Religion in its broadest sense just makes people look at others outside their group as less than human, even if there are a few good things said in general in any good book.
I will ask you one final question: Did religion make Dick Cheney or George Bush better men? Does Obama's religious views make him a better person? People are what they are. People who need religion tent to gravitate toward it, but I do not feel the need to fill any empty voids in my life with feel good but unproveable religious dogma. Maybe I am being my own kind of bigot but I can't understand why people want to cling to something that has no proof to back it up?
Thanks for your comment.
I left your hub without making a comment because as one of the Bible Thumpers you loudly proclaim to be living in fear and have no meaning to our lives, I did not want to shout you down or demean myself by such a discussion. However, I found that I could not let this pass. I totally respect your right to believe or say anything you choose. However, if you must rant against Christianity you should take the time to get your facts straight.
First, the Bible has not been disproved by any authority living or dead. Second, Christianity has to be taken on faith. There is no other way to become a Christian or a believer. Christians are followers of Jesus Christ. Because we believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation does not mean that we hate everyone who does not agree with us. Just because some people have fought wars in the name of Christianity does not mean that all believers feel you must go to war with anyone who does not agree with us. Just because you say that God or gods do not exist does not make it so. You cannot prove that there is no God. You may scream it to the heavens but that does not make it so. I am perfectly willing to allow you to be happy in your non-belief. I would appreciate a little less mockery and the right to believe what I choose! Blessings!
Smireles, I am saying that religion has no factual basis. As you say, it must be taken on faith. Christianity is mentioned above mostly because your country, my former country, uses it as a measure of so many things. I contend that to use religion as a test of someone's ability to hold political office, for example, or base an entire culture on what one believes, makes no sense to me. It's archaic.
As I said in my first hub and on my profile I do not expect to make friends doing this hubbing thing, but to me religion in any form is totally senseless. If you go on faith, then why not allow for the ancient belief that the world in sitting atop a giant tortoise and the sky is just a huge sieve and the stars are just light leaking in from a room beyond? That makes as much sense as any other belief because you can neither prove it nor disprove it using the religioous argument that faith makes truth. Faith does not make anything true. It only makes you believe in something that you can neither hold in your hand nor see with your eyes.
In short, you can believe whatever you want, but you can't prove to anyone, not even to yourself, that your faith has any basis in fact or reality. Sorry, but that's just the simple truth about it. You believe because you chose to believe, not because it has any fact to back it up. The bible Christians use has no credible basis in fact, even if you chose to believe it does. Can you prove to me or anyone that god made the world in six days and rested on the seventh? Can you prove that all the animals and plants on the planet were created in that six day period, or that once there was nothing and then god made everything a reality? It might be the basis for faith, but where is the reality to back it up, the proof, the evidence? Believe whatever you want, but (and this is meant is a general sense) stop defining the world according to beliefs that have no basis in fact.
I recently saw that Newt Gingrich said Obama was anti-religious. So what? Isn't your government supposed to be secular, separation of church and state, and all that good stuff written in your constitution? Why do religious people demand that their leaders have some sort of faith test in order to hold office?
But I stray from my point. You can believe as hard as you want to, but that doesn't mean it's true. Believe me, if it did, then you Chrsitians would be squashed by the other religions in the world that do not like the basic Christian attitudes about them.
Thanks for the comment.
I wanted to add one more thing. It is not up to the nonbeliever to prove that god exists. It is up to the believer to prove that their belief in such a super being has any basis in fact. I could say that I believe in the cosmic egg, but then it rests upon me to prove that such a thing exists. Unless and until god shows a face or something tangible to me, I can't have faith in something that I can't prove exists.
If I take the bible on faith then why not other religious books as well? If I have faith in one, then why not faith in all? Maybe there are gods for each culture and people, and all the beliefs are correct. The simple fact remains in that no one who has faith can say anything other than "I believe", and if that's all the basis for their religion, then they have no right proclaiming it to the world or trying to get others to belief n what may well be their own delusions.
I don't mean to mock, only to point out the obvious. Faith may be a great thing but faith in something that doesn't exist seems to me the ultimate folly.
Faith is not particularly great but it is extremely dangerous.
While Smireles says a few things that are valid, such as not all "christians" believe they must go to war with those who don't share their belief; it doesn't diminish the overall deadly effect that organized religions have had.
As far as the History Channel is concerned, it has in fact presented evidence that some events in the bible have some basis in reality. It has in no way suggested that any of these events were "miraculous" or "spiritual". In fact much of what it presents goes a long way toward humanizing the myth and demonstrating how mundane and typically human the people and events were for the given time period. At the same time, it offers a lot of evidence that shows quite clearly how what writings were allowed to be included in the bible and what were not was a matter of politics more than piety.
Science has definitely disproved much of the "miraculous" aspect of the bible. The whole story of the creation is patently a fairy tale as a number of branches of science demonstrate. If we are to take the bible as accurate then the world was created something like six thousand years ago. Geology, archaeology and paleontology, to name a few, have disproven this beyond dispute.
Ivan, The Christians that did that to you were not Christians at all, as a true Christian does not judge and always helps another person when they are down. I am sorry to hear that your experience was horrible. I have seen some Christians in action and they are not nice people, but they certainly know how to use the word of God and bash someone before they can even get up.
If the Old Testament didn't mention Jesus and the Holy Ghost, then why did it take two thousand years to add the New Testament? Maybe it is time for another addition as it has been another two thousand years. The people of the world are as bad as they have ever been. There are two thousand more years to wash the sins away from.
The Christians couldn't even win in the Crusades.
AEvans, I'm not going to tell you that all christians were mean to me or to others, but along with chrsitians who have been nice to me I have also met muslims who were nice to me and people of other faiths or of no faith at all who were nice to me. One of my best friends here in Madrid is a very devout christian. We agree on lots of issues but not on faith or religion. We've had many long, interesting and passionate discussions about the subject and remain very good friends. The people who bother me most are those who think you have to pass some sort of faith or religious test in oder to lead in politics. In Spain we have no such concept. People running for office would not think to mention they go to church and no news organization would think it particularly newsworthy what church they go to or if they are not religious at all. It simply doesn't matter to running for office.
But in the US it seems to be a matter of great importance. Look how your news media reported ad nauseum on Obama and his preacher in Chicago. Who cares? But in a two-party system I guess such scrutiny makes for better news coverage.
I really don't care that your Sarah Palin goes to some church or not. But when she brings her faith in as a component of her ability to run the nation, I worry. She seems to me to be as fanatical as anyone from Iran or North Korea. It seems to me that the republicans have always put this faith issue out there and the people of the US can't seem to get past it when voting. I would love to see an athiest in the US run for and win a high office, but I don't think that would happen there. It does happen here and so far we have not suffered dire consequences.
Coldwarbaby, thanks for filling in where I, in my moment of writing passion, left out important information. Indeed it is my own opinion that if one can find faith to believe in one holy book or religion, then why not believe in them all? To me it seems as if one picks and choses and then tells others why they are wrong to believe in a different kind of religion. To me it's just a matter of where you are born and the prevailing opinion there. The reason I find it difficult to deal with people who tell me they have the absolute truth in any faith, belief or religion is that I know that there are billions of others in the world who hold equally passionate views about their own beliefs.
Until such time as I can find proof for any belief, or even a reason to follow any religion, I just maintain that if I can't observe it, if there is no proof for me, then why bother to spend time worrying over it? I might as well worry that traffic on M-30 in Madrid will be heavy this morning. Praying about it or even worrying about it makes no sense to me. It will be heavy no matter how hard I pray otherwise. I go there and just work with whatever is out there.
Issues veritas, I agree. Maybe it's time for an up-to-date testament that realizes we have all been following something that doesn't exist and it's time to grow up as a species and take responsibility for our own actions and words.
Which is worse, dying on a cross or being a Christian that was torn apart by a hungry lion?
Do you think the bible story would have been more impressive if Jesus had taken the lion path for his human death and then re-appeared whole after a lion tore him apart?
Just a thought.
Yes, Issues veritas, I don't know which would be a worse or more positive in giving a message about who Jesus was. Since Jesus did not take to going around the countryside after he allegedly rose from the dead, again we only have the word of those who said they were there. It is powerful testimony but it is not proof. There is no outside record of this thing having occurred. While it might have, it would have been nice not to keep it so secret. If god exists then I would like to ask him why he or she just can't show him or herself? Why all the secrecy? If I ask you to believe me when I tell you something, I expect that I will have to offer something other than secrets and cryptic messages to prove that what I say is true.
Why does god demand that we simply believe? It is much easier just to show us what you've got and then we'll go along with the plan. I guess it is asking too much of me to expect me to believe in a book that uses only it's own self to prove that it's true.
No problem Ivan.
The proof that the bible is the truth is that it's the bible and it says it's the truth.
That circular logic is the most fatal flaw of the bible and organized religion.
Ivan
I have done a hub on devils or angels to determine, what that is all about. Any contributions to the questions posed there or answers would be appreciated.
In fact, Ivan if you would like to take charge of it, I would transfer the hub to you.
CWB
Circular logic, a wonderful tool.
So far I have had very little input from those who would defend their religions, and those few who have replied have given thoughtful and passionate denials of what I am saying. I do not deny anyone who sends me a comment, but I was rather hoping I could actually debate these issues with some die-hard religionists. I guess perhaps some people are uncomfortable with debate. Here we get together in the coffee houses and carry on an old Spanish tradition called the tertulia, the time when people of opposing views get together and debate, cordially, passionately, and remain friends.
I really want for someone to comment and show me how my logic is flawed, but after years of debating this issue I have yet to have anyone who can provide even the start of a denial of what I claim is true. Coldwarbaby, I have read a lot of your hubs and you are among the wise people I know. I have read that you have not had much formal education, and I have found that many of my best friends are people like you, who have forgone the typical route to higher education and have observed life in the rawest form. Years ago I read a book called "The True Believer" by Erik Hoffer, who like you learned life's lessons in the school or reality. I think you would like that book.
Because I have observed that people who defend their holy books are usually using circular logic, I have had to argue that they do not have a leg to stand on when it comes to defending their beliefs.
Thank you Ivan. Your words are taken to heart.
That is a brave hub, I was always told that religion is a sop for the poor. I live by "Do as you would be done by" The bible was written long ago when a few good rules didn't come amiss. Now we can choose what we believe. What are your feelings on the Creationists Museum??
Gyspy Willow, I believe the so-called creationist theory is more or less a creationist postulation. We can never know if god or any being created the universe. We can only rely on our senses to ask the questions that science will eventually answer.
I know that science can not prove a negative, only a positive. So scientists can not prove that creationism is false, only that it does not have evidence to back it up. While a few scientists back the idea of creationism they have to stretch far to make the scant findings fit the postulations they have made. It would rather be like having to disprove Harry Potter's world does not exist. There is a gut feeling that it either does or doesn't, and then there is whatever evidence we gather, test and then accept or deny based upon certain criteria of science.
I do not deny that a god or gods exist, I only say that if they do, they leave darned little lying around for us to guess their intentions and purposes. For that reason I chose not to believe in a god or gods until such time as he, she or they come out of the myths and make themselves known.
But more to the comment, creationism is right now a huge hoax in my opinion, one that is created to fulfill an agenda of getting christian religion back into public schools. Here in Spain we don't have that nonsense going on. If people want their kids to get a religious education they take them to a parochial school or to a school that is openly teaching a religious content. Or, they go to church and learn their religion there, where it belongs. My cousin in America wrote me once that he would love to go into a church and start teaching geometry and see if anyone was offended.
By the way, I saw on the Internet a program where some preacher was trying to develop the idea that the Earth was only 5,000 some odd years old. Man, did he ever have to tell lies in order to get that message across! It never fails to amaze me that some people will grasp at any straw in order to make their cause seem legitimate! I guess that sums up my feelings about a creationist museum.
Thanks for your reply! By the way, I like your hub name. We have gypsies, (Gitanos) here in Spain and also I liked the movie Willow, as well as I also like weeping willow trees. Llorones, we call them, here.
Aren't all religions or 'belief systems' a 'way of knowing and understanding the world'? Sets of principles, order, etc. If so, then Christianity is valid, as is science...both are ways of knowing the known world, aren't they? The two have some different principles at their core, but so does atheism (another valid belief system) have a different set of principles - so does Jainism, Native Spirituality, Earth religions, etc. I'm not sure that any particular belief system need be called non-valid or 'wrong' - I think that if people weren't so set on claiming one belief system as right and all others as wrong, there wouldn't be so much scrapping amongst people. We can't all be atheists, nor can we all be Christians but we can honour different principles, can't we?
Monotheism is but a "fad!" All of man's imagined "god/s" existed until his sophistication evolved and the old "mysteries" could be scientifically explained. Man has now created a supernatural entity which cannot be defined or known and is but an abstract concept. I consider "believers" in incorporeal divinities to be the lesser evolved of the human species. Regardless of their "formal" education and the subjects mastered, they lack an ability to use logic and reason in making decisions when it comes to trying to understand our "true" value to the cosmos. To teach children that such a thing as this monotheistic god thing exists, is to me the height of child abuse. It is brain washing of the same sort islam uses to create devotees of their young who eventually strap bombs to their bodies. press a trigger and destroy their life and the lives of all surrounding "infidels!" If you remember a fellow called "bishop Sheen," you must remember that he made this statement:(paraphrase) 'give me a child from birth to seven and I'll give you a catholic for life." If humanity can survive the danger of religious fragmentation, Future historians will read about us and chuckle at the degree of primitive ignorance we experienced and they will sigh, in sorrow, at the level of inhumanity to humanity this god "fad" caused. Lets all hope that this 'god" fad is eliminated by universal education before it becomes the perpetrator of our demise.
RKHenry says:
9 months ago
Well, I won't be one of those who "shout you down". It should make your views known in the religious forum as well. That would be fun!