Can Christianity Be Saved?
64
The Argument
If you've ever visited the forums here at Hub Pages, then you know that most of the conversations there are ugly, one-note battles between self-professed Christians and self-professed atheists, agnostics, rationalists and/or more moderate Christians.
The tone of these debates is unpleasant and the content is meager at best.
Actually, 'debate' is probably too generous a word for what I'm talking about.
Here's a Reader's Digest version for those of you who have never seen this weird dialogue in action:
Christian forum poster: "Believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior or be cast into Hell for all eternity!"
Atheist/agnostic forum poster: "Oh piss off you troglodyte. Mind your own business for half a minute."
That's pretty much the whole conversation, with a few minor variations thrown in about science versus religion (which makes no sense at all, because it's kind of like, oh I don't know, cupcakes versus hammers...they're not in opposition really, are they? Yet many seem to believe they are.). Periodic ranting about intelligent design versus evolution is also used to stir the pot now and then. (Where's my DVD of Inherit the Wind when I need it?)
As I witness this unending 'debate' dragging endlessly on and on, something in me wilts. What bothers me most, I think, has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the fact that the debate really it isn't really about Christianity at all. What it's really about is whether or not crabby people with Bibles have the right--nay, the duty!-- to browbeat crabby people without Bibles into rhetorical submission.
It's really about power and bullying and politics.
Clearly, most of the people on the zealot side wouldn't know Christianity if it bit them in the ass.
But mostly I don't say any of those things in the forums, not just because I think the discussion is boring and false, but also because I think Mark Knowles and Sufidreamer have much tougher stomachs for that debate and are way funnier than I am when they respond. Also, it seems like whenever I do try to say something, nothing productive happens next, or more often, I'm completely ignored. So I pretty much keep quiet about it as much as I can.
I want to point out though that while I sit here not saying anything, the Christian Right is steadily emerging as the vangard of what could easily become a new American Fascist Party, cobbled together from the most right-wing remnants of the Republican Party, some racist micreants who now have nowhere to go and nothing to do, and assorted oddballs, survivalists, and persons with insane attachments to other people's fetuses.
Meanwhile, Christianity as a mainstream American religion is losing ground.
According to an Aris study conducted in 2008, 76% of Americans self-identified as Christian, down from 86.6% in 1990. (The Aris group's methodology and statistical analyses recognized by the U.S. Census Bureau, which is itself prohibited by law from collecting data on the religious preferences of Americans.)
During that same period, the number of Christians who self-identified as born-again or evangelical increased 294.5%, while mainstream sects of Christianity (Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopalian) declined 10.4%.
Catholicism was rapidly declining in East Coast states but increasing in states with growing Hispanic populations, (suggesting that Catholicism is mostly maintaining its population only because of the large recent numbers of Catholic Mexican immigrants--without them it too would be seeing a decline among older U.S. citizens.)
Pentecostal or 'Generic' Christian sects also increased 40.7% and 24.9% respectively during this period.
What does it all mean?
It means that the overall percentage of Americans who self-identify as Christian is dropping, but that Americans who do self-identify as Christian are moving fast to the right. American Christians are joining more evangelical sects, more pentecostal sects, more politicized sects, and abandonning the denominations they grew up with.
In other words, Christianity is rapidly becoming more politically radical in the U.S., and at the same time, it is also becoming more and more emotional and extreme in its understanding of the tenets of the faith.
That's a just a snapshot of what's going on.
Some people say it's a good thing, others say it's a very bad thing.
That's the real argument.
You Are the Antichrist
The taste for eschatology sparked by the enormously popular Tim LaHaye series Left Behind contines to infect evangelicals and would-be evangelicals faster than swine flu.
Fascination with the end of the world has become some kind of virulent little meme that once ingested turns people who weren't thinking all that hard about much of anything, into people who can only think about the End Times and the Antichrist.
Forget Mr. Goodbar: Everyone these days seems to be looking for the Antichrist.
If you are one of those people intently looking for the Antichrist, here's a hint:
Look in the mirror.
You are the Antichrist.
Seriously.
I'm going to go at this symbolically, because I think that is the fastest way to make sense of it (and plus, Tom Hanks does it in Angels and Aliens so it must be a good idea).
In the world of symbol, 'The Devil' rules over Sex, Death, Money, and Bondage. Those are his semiotic domains. That means that a transaction that involves the exchange of one valuable commodity (a soul) for another valuable commodity (eternal life) and that results in perpetual bondage to the salesman even after death, is a deal with the Devil. That is all the Devil's domain not God's.
The equation, Believe in me (give me your soul) even unto death and in exchange you will be rewarded with eternal life (that's a transaction, folks), is a deal with the wrong guy.
If you made that deal, and think you made it with God, think again.
So let's talk about Jesus for a minute.
The symbolic realm of the Christ is ancient territory. Symbolically the story of Jesus has been told in other forms about other people for thousands of years before his birth. A few of the many mythic and religious figures whose stories include a virgin birth, great suffering and sacrifice for others while alive, followed by a tragic execution at the hands of those same people include Krishna, Horus, Dionysus, and even Odysseus.
There are others, but that's a sampling.
Jesus the man, in walking through the story of the Christ, rules the symbolic territory of suffering and sacrifice, and redemption through love and humility.
So, if you want to be a follower of Jesus, if you want to attach yourself to that major story, you should expect to have a very hard life full of suffering and persecution that ends badly but is somehow redemptive on a larger scale. Ordinary humans have indeed lived such lives. Gandhi and Martin Luther King are two that spring to mind.
The life of a savior is not easy and it's not a path that just anyone can take up successfully, though there are compelling reasons to try. In Buddhism and Hinduism, only the most evolved souls volunteer to forgo eternal bliss and instead stay in this world of pain and sorrow to help others find their release from it. It isn't like they just make a two-minute deal with some religion salesman (yeah you can have my soul, and now I get to live forever, right? we're good, right?) and then suddenly they know everything.
It isn't anything like that.
So get your stories straight,
The Word Made Flesh
Words are symbols. That's all they are.
A word, taken at face value, is nothing but a vocalization or a scratch made on a solid surface. Words only matter because they symbolize this or that. On the most rudimentary level, a word has a one to one correspondence. So, for example, the word 'apple' corresponds with a specific kind of red fruit that can delicious when eaten in the fall.
'Apple' the word = 'Apple' the thing.
But if language were only that, if words only referenced tangible objects, none of us would be here at Hub Pages writing anything. Why bother? What inspires a writer is the recognition that words go far beyond that basic 'symbol to thing' correspondence to connect us to a veritable universe of indirect larger meanings.
Words connect us, through metaphor, to a larger reality.
So the word 'Apple' invokes in us not simply a image of a specific crunchy fruit, but maybe the feeling of hunger and with it all the stories ever told about hunger and the allure of something shiny and red. Adam and Eve. Snow White. My mother's apple pie.
Words almost always take us far past their 'symbol to thing' correspondences into stories and memories, networks of other words, all with their own complex inferences and metaphors.
The famous 20th century psychoanalyst Carl Jung was one of the first in modern times to recognize that some stories, some collections of words, are so timeless and so powerful that they take on meanings that outlast any given civilzation or people. Jung called these universal themes archetypes.
Jung thought that different religions tell many of the same stories because some stories are bigger than people and bigger than culture; these stories connect the people who hear them to a larger reality. Jung said that these stories, these archetypes, are actually beyond people; that they exist with or without people in some way, as organizing semiotic principles that possess a kind of life force of their own.
The beginning of the Gospel of John expresses this sentiment beaitifully:
In the beginning, the Word was. And the word dwelt with God and with what God was.
So what can it mean for the Word to become Flesh?
Crucial to any understanding of archetypal stories is their organic nature. These kinds of stories are more than ideas, they are in some sense alive. Words become flesh when they take root in a single human life and grow into a drama that organizes that life and walks it through all of its deeper, larger meanings. Often it is only at the end of such a life that we can look back at it and recognize what word, what story, took root there.
When Jesus tells the story of the mustard seed, it is a powerful recognition of the organic nature of faith. Faith is not about reigion, it's not about our ideas, our beliefs, our torturously imagined metaphysical worlds; it's not even about our own words however well reasoned we imagine them to be.
Faith is surrender to something larger than ourselves that takes root in us through language, through story, and in doing that tranforms the ordinary into the sacred.
It is the word itself that does this, not the person receiving the word.
When people reduce Christianity to 'word to thing' simplistic symbolic meanings and hack at text and beat other people over the head with Bibles to make some point that gets lost in all the violence of the rhetoric, they misunderstand and even pervert the process of faith. It doesn't matter though. In fact, it's part of the drama, it's written into the Christian story itself.
So, can Christianity be saved?
Christianity doesn't need to be saved. The story is timeless, and will be told again and again, in many forms, as it already has been told, age after age. It will not only survive the current attempts by fascists and hate mongers to pervert and abuse its texts and ideas, in the end it will conquer them. It will do this for the same reason that water, another clear and seemingly gentle substance, can cut through solid rock and reduce mountains to sand.
In this same way, a kind word can still lodge in a human heart and transform a life. Smaller than a mustard seed amidst all the other hateful words and bloody confusions life serves us, the compassion that can grow out of suffering, and the sacrifice it can inspire, is a powerful, if quiet, eternal force.
So yes Virginia, there will always be Christians in this sad, painful world.
They just probably aren't who you think they are.
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Comments
Brilliant hub! deep and thoughtful and true. Fanatics scare me, no matter what religeon they are. Sometimes i wish people would take useful tenets like "love" and live them instead of zealously wanting to kill the baddies.. have you noticed that most people who choose to externalise- that the baddies are over there.... are the same who never look into their own hearts, oh no they dont need to, they are already perfect. and THAT drama is very large and keeps playing out until the soul learns, a new helpful dose of pain(in the same place) until it wakes up. eg a lady who mysteriously keeps choosing the "wrong kind of guy" ... who did the choosing in the first place, whos the common denominator in all the relationships... :)
Great Hub, Pam - your best yet!
Thanks for the mention, although I tend not to participate as much, nowadays. :)
It certainly is a worrying trend that you have in the US, and something that we simply do not understand over here. In fact, it is seen as very impolite, in Greece, to ask about somebody's religious beliefs. The insanity of the religion vs science thing does not happen here - they coexist quite happily. The Greek Orthodox church encourages introspection and mysticism, so everybody is welcome to have their own take on things.
I like your last section best - I am a great believer that the Bible is a general guide, and the similarities with earlier stories is too obvious to be ignored. I have no more than skimmed through the NT, and am quite happy with that. Translating from Greek is difficult, and can never be literal, so I cannot understand those who maintain that every single word of the Bible is accurate. Still, each to their own.
Anyway, must stop before I end up with a Hub's worth of comments.
This is sound, witty, erudite, and spot on. The bad news is that Margaret Atwood's view of the US religious right is starting to materialize before our very eyes. The chasm between an intellectual pragmatism and a fuzzy, evangelical vagueness is wider by the year and evident in universities across the States, where I've heard students speculate on various answers to a question I've already responded to, oblivious to fact. Why should they pay attention, anyway? They have grown up with a Whitehouse that can publicly eschew truth.
Can Christianity be saved? Yes and no: yes, because there will always be good folk who are compassionate and caring; no, because it is fast becoming a sink of ignorance of medieval proportions. It took the printing press and radical non-conformism to snap the Middle Ages out of their stupor: what's it going to take now?
Great hub.
Very interesting. What do you think will happen when false religion is completely done away with?
I had to come back and give this another read, as it's the most intelligent piece I've read on the topic for a long while. (Love the cupcakes/hammers analogy). You have a real gift for presenting information in a balanced manner while never losing sight of your own point of view.
Very interesting. Christianity will survive with each one of us that believes.
Thanks RJSkains--I appreciate you taking the time to comment. :)
Brian--Hi! Good to see you. Yes, projection seems to play out on a religious stage more often than not. It can be alarming. Right now it IS alarming. Kindness is never a bad idea though, that much I'm certain of.
Sufi--I was thinking about you when I wrote this actually, thinking, you know, the way this debate is always framed leaves no room for thinking human beings of good heart. It's really frustrating. So much more to say about it than, "Are you fer us or agin us!?!" I always feel like what I want to talk about is never addressed, so I thought, heck, I'll just write a hub on it. I'm really flattered that you enjoyed it.
Teresa--I am with you, girlfriend. We are soooooo heading straight into 'A Handmaid's Tale' here, and it's terrifying. I think we are already seeing a reactionary far right religiosity gear up for a major backlash. A lot hinges on how the economy shakes out. If it gets much uglier, so will the right. That's my fear about it. But I wanted to at least say, somewhere, that even though they are gaining strength, they do not speak for all---hence all the Christians abandonning ship in recent years.
scriber & roni--thanks for your thoughts and for taking the time to read this.
Interesting hub. As time goes by, I feel more and more people do not understand the Bible. This was written by prophets and apostles. Some of the meanings, I feel are being lost, or at least misused. You have some religions going out and rewriting the Bible and changing words and meanings, because it does not fit their understandings.
There is record up to a few decades after Christ death and then everything quit. No more apostles or prophets. The Bible talks about a falling away "apostasy" and a famine for the word of God on earth before the last days.
My son is out an a two year mission right now, out hunting out people person-by-person and to teach them the gospel of Jesus Christ. The grains in the field my be able to be blow from side to side, but there will be those who are out to teach and help.
Argueing on forums is not inspirational. Teaching hell and damnation is not spiritual, and is not of God. God is love and respect.
Keep on Hubbing!
Thanks for exercising my brain on this sunny Sunday afternoon, Pam. I really like how you structured this hub, broadening out from juvenile forum "debates" to the calcified thinking on both sides (but mostly one side) to the scary trends in the general population. Those percentages are shocking, not only in themselves, but because they co-occur (as Teresa says) with a general dumbing-down of our population. All we like sheep! BAA.
The general question whether Christianity can be saved is an excellent one. If it is to continue in its true form/intent, then it does, indeed, need to be recaptured from the born-agains. Which basically puts the job into the hands of the "lefties" (aka socialists, communists like us) who do not view religion and science as mutually exclusive. In other words, the job will need to be pulled off by an army of AntiChrists:-)! Where do I enlist??
P.S. I agree with Eovery. God is love and respect, not hell and damnation.
Christianity and all other religions start out as the same thing; an expression of the inherent goodness of humans and their ability to achieve incredible things through love and compassion.
The awareness of that potential cannot be destroyed or obliterated except by the extinction of the species.
In spite of endless effort to turn the concept of a society of loving, sharing and benevolent people into divided, conflicted and hateful chaos, the potential and the awareness of it still remain.
If our species survives long enough, that goodness will become the rule rather than the exception and no religion will be required to enforce it.
So, really, I think it’s more about the survival of humanity than saving any religion.
If you go past that word = thing formula, it is the nature of the majority of humans, and perhaps their greatest vulnerability, to be “Christian”.
While it is the inherent strength of goodness that could ultimately allow humanity to ascend to a more enlightened state, it is the openness of that goodness that makes them more easily exploited by the minority that are devoid of that same characteristic.
Brilliantly written by the way Pam.
Pam, this is simply wonderful, thoughtful, interesting, and just altogether great.
I love the first section of your article and especially this: "Clearly, most of the people on the zealot side wouldn't know Christianity if it bit them in the ass." Right on. I have been hovering in the forums, especially the one about witnessing. I, like you, put down a comment that was directed towards discussion about the topic thread, and was COMPLETELY ignored. Putting my own immature indignation aside, (I thought what I said was great, if not totally relevant and right on), it was then I noticed that the comments being written and responded to were all hot air, from both sides. It is just like you say, lots of people want to throw around logic and reason to bash the other person and show how right they are. I have also given in to this at one time on Hulu and Youtube, and realized it was just making people angry and making me upset when I received harsh responses. Still, Christians seem to catch flak these days no matter if they witness with love and sincere concern and consideration for their neighbor or Bible thump their victims on the head until they are bleeding.
I wrote one religious hub so far, and it is not for controversy, it is for teaching / enlightening. It came from the heart and it was a piece I felt belonged on HP. (Too many people just use this as a format to blast the world with the gospel, we are here to be creative, to write well and express ourselves, not use this format as just another outlet - you can start a blog if you want to do that).
On to the rest of your article. I most certainly respect your opinion, but I was taken aback by the fact that you criticized others for continuing endless debate only meant to inflame others and stir the pot, and then you spend most of the article talking about the evils of Christian religion. I have to add that in regards to comments made on the forums, I have to agree that a certain poster in the atheist camp was guilty of making snide and untrue remarks about Christianity and some other religions while preaching neutrality and peace as remarked by a certain other fundamental Christian poster.
As a Christian, I am going to say that I defend everyone's right to say what they believe, but I do not like it when they try to assert double standards. I believe that when I do write about liberal and conservative issues I am respectful and say what I mean without false accusations, please correct me if I am wrong. But it is hurtful when someone says, "you Christians are being so mean and hateful, why don't you follow the Bible?" Then say, "I stand for peace and love, not like those war mongering, racist, Nazi Christians who want to burn our books and so on and so forth. There is a middle road, and you’re right, there are lots of radicals on both sides. I am a radical in thought and deed, but I do not wish to suppress the other side’s opinions and right to free speech.
Furthermore, if the people someday decide that homosexual marriage is okay, then I will not be a part of trying to make them vote for it a hundred times until I get my way, which is what is happening with the constant requests to bring the issue back to the table, except it seems that the decision is in the hands of judges now? Apparently, the people of California voted for Prop 8, and voted the same way against gay marriage previously, so let it rest!
And if we are going to compare it to black civil rights, wasn’t it peaceful demonstration that won equal rights for black people? Work on convincing people instead of forcing the issue.I want to respect your views, even if I don’t agree with them, and I believe we can coexist peacefully, as long as we defend each other’s right to express our opinion and lobby for peaceful and lawful change. If we don’t respect the institutions of law and respect for others, then change will always be a roller coaster without end.
As far as Christianity being saved is concerned, (Pgrundy, I honestly do love the play on themes here), I have to say that it drives me nuts when spiritual people claim to be Christian when they do not adhere to the tenets of Christianity, or otherwise known as the Bible. I can tell you that Christians will be here as long as people believe in Jesus of the Bible and try to live by its assertions of truth. Christianity is a belief system though, and it is insulting to Christians when people claim to be Christian but refuse certain beliefs in the Bible when they don't align with their own feelings or general beliefs of other non-religious spiritual people. I am glad you believe in a god, but we cannot afford to generalize any faith, whether it is the one I believe in, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Mormonism and any of the other thousands of faiths out there.
Before someone jumps in to tell me what a divider I am, I want to reiterate that I believe in this world, we all need to get along. I have had several Muslim coworkers, and the one I work with now I have even asked for more information because I recognize that I cannot talk about something of which I am ignorant. (She gave me a small book to read about Islam, and I read the whole thing - it was enlightening). Christians and Muslims have alot of things in common, they are both somewhat conservative faiths, and Muslims also believe that Jesus was real and regard him as a prophet.
The solution to this debating is to approach the other side with respect, and stop debating unless one party is seeking to know more. Otherwise, if both people are polarized, the only reasoning they see is their own and we get the crap we see on the forums. We should be witnesses of our beliefs if we want to spread our truth, but to argue in circles is useless and senseless. Seeking equality is the reason I would love to see either creationism and evolution taught as the theories they are, side by side in public schools, or not at all. It can be done. Both theories have sound evidence for and against them, so why not teach instead of indoctrinate?
Pgrundy, if this is too long, would you please let me post a short comment with a link to this comment as a hub? I hope this doesn’t start another round of debate since my effort is to encourage us all to get along and be respectful. As always, Pgrundy, you inspire thought and write profoundly.
I'm a Christian..that is to say a follower of christ. If you were to categorize me you would call me a Messianic Jew. I am not a fascist brow beating bible bellowing name calling judgemental christian. I love all people...You are who you are, we may not see the same but then again no one does. Doesn't mean i agree with everything you do, the same as you don't agree with everything i do. I love my faith...not religion...if you ask me about it i could go on and on and on talking about it. Not because i want you to be what i am (exact opposite because living this way is not easy) but because i love my faith and am excited about it. If you are not excited about your faith then something is wrong. that could step on some peopels toes, but then again i can't please everyone :)
You summed it up with your comment of, “In other words, Christianity is rapidly becoming more politically radical in the U.S., and at the same time, it is also becoming more and more emotional and extreme in its understanding of the tenets of the faith.”
I gave up on organized religion (not my faith) years ago. They are controlling and most of their beliefs are guided by manmade rules not the original 10 commandments…I also found them becoming over the top, bigoted and hypocritical…
You brought some very good points to this ongoing argument…Great piece!
that is a fine work of writing, thanks for the post.
Bless me father, I forget to put the envelopes again.....
The Cainite-Judeo-Christian Religion is doomed, it's only a matter of time before it's wiped from the face of this earth completely.
True Christianity or "The Way", on the other hand, will prevail with the imminent return of the Lord Jesus Christ in order to take His Throne as King of kings and Lord of lords.
Thank you for your comments everyone. I appreciate that you all took the time to read this and comment on it.
I just want to reiterate that I wrote this hub in response to what I perceive to be a right wing politicization of Christianity in the U.S. and my personal belief that that is not the core of religion.
Beyond that I'm not going to get into any discussions on it, because they just degenerate into abuse IMO and I already said what I had to say here. No one is required to agree with me. We still have the freedom to believe as we wish (last time I checked, though we can certainly give it up whenever we want to).
I appreciate and respect all of you and I'm glad you dropped by.
Alexander,
You misunderstand the point of my essay. Or, perhaps you understand it and hold views I disagree with and we will not be coming to an agreement on this specific point. In either case, I welcome your thoughts and I'm glad you left them here.
Hi all,
Ironically, as I wrote this, Dr. George Tiller, a physician who has performed abortions for years and is a personal friend of President Obama, was gunned down while attending services at his church.
I think this speaks for itself. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Gunning down anybody in a church is not the act of a sane person much less a Christian person.
This has happened before--it isn't new.
The U.S. used to be a place where reasonable people could disagree reasonably. You could live next door to someone who voted for the other guy, and you could still have a good life, both of you. That is changing. That's nothing to be admired.
Some people are yellers and screamers and some are whisperers and doers. I'll take a doer any day of the week. First of all, the first job of a Christian is to save themselves, ..."when thou art converted, strengthen they brethren..." (Luke 22: 31,32) and if they do that right, that will probably keep most Christians busy for a few years, if not their whole life...
And, I don't think anyone is strengthened by yellers and screamers...if we're to judge by the fruit of their labor.
Sooo, I'm pretty busy trying to live a life that keeps me together, out of jail, and somewhere between happy and asleep. None of which, gives me much time to yell or scream, and strengthening others basically involves, for me, being a good example of the happy/asleep behavior. First, doing no harm is powerful, yet most yellers and screamers forget about that because they trip over their humility-less ego in their rush to save another from - well, what was it again? oh yeah, Hell. As if we don't see that everywhere we look.
Missionaries have their job, and I believe in conversion. It's a personal experience you won't have unless you want it, no one can give it to you or force feed it or prove it when it happens.
I don't call most of what I've seen in any religious discussion here "missionary" work. They are either preachin' to the choir ("yeah, yeah, I hear ya brother!"i.e. each other) or preachin' to the Devil, and the choir already believes and the Devil isn't desirous of conversion.
Some devote entire websites and hubs to their screams and dreams of missionary work and while I don't really question their motives, I do their methods. And, their results. They'd have far better outcomes if they baked some bread for an ailing neighbor, or mowed someone's lawn who can't, or gave someone who needed it a few bucks and a smile. Then, someone might even ask the question..."Why are you so nice?"
My husband, as a Deputy with the Air Marshall Service (con-air) would often have a prisoner on the plane, going to nowhere, ask him if he was a clergyman. Why? Because he treated them with dignity. To me, that's the brightest kind of light.
And he didn't have to say a word about religion. It was just a feeling they got from the way they were treated.
Guess I preached a sermon, Pam, that you inspired. Amen? LOL
Thanks Pgrundy, I think we do disagree on a few things. I appreciate your graciousness.
Thoughtful and thought provoking hub. What you explain is why I tend to stear away from the forums. Too much space for too little intelligence.
"Some people are yellers and screamers and some are whisperers and doers. I'll take a doer any day of the week. First of all, the first job of a Christian is to save themselves."
Great! I love it when mainstream Christians are honest and tell us openly that they have no need of the Lord's sacrifice and His resurrection in order for them to be saved.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:8-9 (KJV)
This is living proof of why the Cainite-Judeo-Christian Religion is doomed - it cannot survive, for it is full of people saving themselves!!!!!
It is also proof that the spirit of the Pharisees is still with us today.
any reasonable believer would not think I even implied that the Lord's sacrifice was of no value. To take part in that sacrifice, it's necessary to accept it... that is a life's journey. Saving ourselves involves living the word we've accepted which leaves little room for bossing and force feeding our acceptance of the Lord down someone else's throat. That is not Christianity, nor missionary work.
If I was prone to argument, your reference to me and the Pharisees would give much fodder for debate, which is not what you want. Your desire it to argue with a Christian who sees her role in life as one to be the best example of love, light, and forgiveness so that others would want to follow those footsteps...which in turn demonstrate and measure the Christian. Pharisees did what you just did. They did not behave or speak in the manner in which I did.
Pharisees did persecute those who mean no harm to others, including those who would not force feed the Lord's sacrifice to someone who is not hungry.
Saving yourself means living the word to me, concentrating on my own rights and wrongs, doing no harm to others... and that is what I was referring to, but God Bless you for taking that phrase out of context and becoming a screamer in front of all who read... proving my point.
And by the way, Christian Religion is not doomed, but screamers always think so. I think the Lord knew what He was doing, but your words just prove you think not.
You insult a plan that reaches far beyond you...and even the world. Eternity is a long time, full of lots of progression and people. No one will be forced along the way, not even the screamers.
If I gave advice to you, which is a total waste of time, it would be to spend your energy living the life and less time condeming others so that when you find yourself on the other side, you will be further along in your understanding and progression than you are now.
But, again, I am speaking to one who is not hungry...as is often the case and which was my original point...and the very reason I believe pgrundy wrote this piece.
Look quick, behind that chair, under that table, why, I believe I see Christians, very busy living their own life, working out their salvation...hm, who knew?
<Round of applause for marisue.>
THAT is how to be a Christian! :)
That virulent meme worries me and has for some years. The death this week of Dr Tiller was a terrible jolt that is damaging those who are of true christian ideals. If the original ideals of christianity were upheld I could rest easy and leave each to their own. But fundamentalism, evangelical christianity and the involvement in right wing politics is an insurgence that is destructive. At a world glance this is not going unnoticed outside American soil.
Marisue--I agree. Whatever happened to professing faith through service? Whatever happened to letting your actions speak instead of your mouth? I feel like, if the right must be intolerantly religious in the political arena, let them at least give up their tax free status and present themselves honestly as a political movement, not as born agains. The situation in the U.S. is getting very ugly and I fear at this rate it will only deteriorate.
Jewels--We were just talking about this last night here at home. Because I know all of you folks in Britain and Europe and Australia and NZ and Greece and Indai and what not, I asked Bill, "Why aren't they shooting abortion doctors in Europe? Why is it just us that seems to have these horrific problems?" And we did decide fundamentalist Christianity is peculiarly American, but not in a good way. It's always been annoying, but it's getting to be alarming. And once someone is infected, you can't even talk to them. All they can hear or see is that one thing.
It is alarming Pam, especially looking from here. Though with Australia and NZ, we tend to get influenced by the US like cancer. There is fundamentalists here too and as yet it's not as rampant and damaging. But give it time. The Australian mentality is not keen on being impinged by religiosity. So far grassroots Australia is fending it off. But for how long?
I have a client who left the evangelical christian fold and even though she knows so much stuff has been imprinted, and is not what she believes is truth, she is finding it so difficult to reverse it. The 'right/wrong' guilt angle is very strong. This being right above all else is dangerous. That worries me that lateral thinking is lost. The meme is strong and memes are enveloping. In most cases you don't know you're in one so can't see the lack of individuality. A meme in essence is not about being individual at all and this one is strong. Scarey.
We are fortunate in Greece - there is little sign of any such movement here. It is seen as extremely bad manners to try to impose or even discuss religion - besides, there is little respect for anybody who cannot back up their argument with sound reasoning.
Most of us are of the 'moderate' Christian persuasion - I do not know a single person here who takes the Bible as literal truth, not even the priests or archbishops. I am quite happy to describe myself as a 'spirtual Christian,' regardless of who it offends.
Hi Pam, thank you and thank YOU Sufidreamer, I hope I made my points of living well, and letting others find their way to improve their life a little at a time, maybe benefiting here and there by good examples. I have so many people both religious and non that have influenced me for the good. I honor my deceased parents who loved their neighbors, even those who were not so nice at times.
I fail by comparison, but I try.
I, too am fearful of the Sarah Palins of the world who would force their brand of "righteousness" on others. Which is the very reason I am not for bringing "prayer" back into the schools. A moment of meditation suffices, letting those who will, draw strength from their own personal power sources. For me it is God, but why force someone who would have another resource on me, or mine on them? It is not a good thing. Separation of Church and State was inspired from the Source.
For those who want the Christian religion taught at school, let them choose a Christian-based school. For mainstream groups, they need to have a more neutral approach.
I remember my parents saying "Sex and religion should be taught in the home and in our Churches."
Of course, we see that is failing somewhat in our society, but the answer is not government-stamped approval on a certain religious belief.
I remember at a foster parent ranch where we parented 18 children in our Ranch home, being forced to attend their neutral, generic-brand church. I was personally uncomfortable, often criticized by "generic Christians" for not waving my hands in the air and leaning towards the pulpit during a song or prayer.
For God's sake, of course.
Pam, I admire your ability to stir the air. =)) Great discussion!
Jewels, you are so right about memes. I was thinking of writing a separate hub on that topic--I think I will, I just have to get time to do it. What's interesting is, the whole point of this essay (I think) is that language is more than a one to one correspondence of word to thing--it requires interpretation--and whenever something can be interpreted it can be interpreted many ways on many levels. And already I've gotten 'there is only one way' responses here. So robotic, it's like talking to a wall. But then, I wrote this for myself and others who have similar feelings, not for the infected, who can't hear it. I don't know what to do about it. I don't think there is anything to do about it except not be bullied.
Marisue and Sufi--We watched a GREAT movie last night that relates to this topic. It's called 'Doubt', based on a play by John Patrick Shanley. Maybe I'll do a review. I'd love to discuss it online, it's an awesome flick. Here's a link:
That would be a great topic Pam. There is a book called Lucifer and Ahriman which addresses memes. Corporate meme, family meme, christian meme. When you understand memes you start to see that Choice is not something we really do have consciously. Mind bending stuff.
Memes sounds to be an interesting topic - there must be some reason for it. I would like to read the Hub, once you write it, because I don't have time to read books!
I had a little snide comment left for me, by one of the Christians who cannot understand that you can be a Christian AND an evolutionist. It does become wearying, after a while, but I always end up biting.
Another great hub. Some random reactions to the comments:
Though I partake, intellectual debate re God is exhausting and leaves me with a feeling much like having downed a bag of marshmallows. God is a feeling, not a thought. Religion has converted God to a thought, a principle, for money and control. By far the biggest and most impressive structures within miles of my home are the Christian and Mormon churches. What point are they trying to make?
The problem is not just a particular religion or even all religions. The problem is that humans make themselves worthy by making others less than. It was the poor whites of the South that were most invested in slavery because, without it, those whites were at the bottom. Can you tell me that the college graduate does not somewhere feel just a little better than one who stayed home and worked? The white collar worker feels just a little more important than the blue collar worker, and the blue collar worker feels just a little more righteous and manly than the white collar worker. And of course there is always the race example. The true killer of the human spirit is the concept of "us v. them", whether the context is religious or not.
I cannot condemn the proselytizer, Christian or otherwise, because many years ago when I was a young man (I'm talking 35 years), I practiced Buddhism in a sect which believed in proselytizing. I never got punched out, but there were lots of awkward moments. The ostensible reason for the proselytizing (they called it "shakabuku") was to save souls and recruit members, no different than the rabid Christian. But sometime after I stopped my street "assaults" on people, I realized that there had been another, greater benefit to the proselytizing: it taught me not to honor the stop signs that most people put up to avoid interaction with others, which is also the place where people's pain lies. If we are to be our brother's keeper, that willingness to go past the stop sign is critical. The problem arises when the proselytizer sees only his concepts and not the person before him.
Sufi & Jewels, Yes, I think it sounds interesting too. Don't look for the hub too quickly though! Bill is home the rest of this week so I'm not working too terribly hard online (which is a nice change!)
Steve--Very thoughtful. Your comment put me in mind of an incident that happened on the streets of Chicago with my exhusband. We were walking along the street the Art Museum is on, right in front of the Bennigans on the corner, and we passed a street guru-person handing out Bhagavad Gitas just as four cars crashed into into each other, boom, boom, boom, boom. The street Hindu said, "Pay no attention, it's just false ego," and I looked at my husband, who was staring into this guys eyes like a cobra stares at a mongoose. I said, "Stop looking and him, you have to stop looking at him," but he couldn't. I started pulling him along, and all the while he's staring into this guy's eyes and the guy is pushing the Gita at my husband and talking nonstop, so I pushed the book away, stepped in between them, broke the gaze, and said, "I have that at home," (which I do) and the guy was like, "You do not!" And then we got away.
But I never forgot it. My ex was a person with enormous inner pain that he refused to confront, and this man, this stranger, had obviously instantly tapped that and 'hooked' him like a fish. Most of the time my ex was very controlling and arrogant, but here was a total stranger who had controlled HIM in a heartbeat, and totally.
Amazing.
Brilliant comment. Thank you.
...Just remembered also that years later, remembering the incident, I was able to acknowledge how our relationship (my ex's and mine) was based so much on me keeping him from the meltdown he needed to have, protecting him and allowing him to stay ill. All that was encapsulated in an instant. So I know there is a lot to what you are saying here.
Pam- Another wonderful hub. Actually Pam the person who was thrusting that Bhagvad Gita could very well be an ISKCON member who have become very active in last 2 decades. In the past Hindus never were active in fact never even stepped out of the country but nowadays some of these new movements like ISKCON are doing what some of the other religions have done in the past by persuasion or coercion spread the "word".
In fact even my husband used to attend some Gita discourses conducted by them and then slowly they started encouraging him to do service at the temple or contribute money for this and that cause. I guess all religions try to proselytize for various purposes. Thumbs up for another excellent hub.
Thank you countrywoman for that information. I don't know who he represented, but you could be right. In fact, my copy of the Gita was given to me on a city street in the 70s. It's really a lovely book, lots of colorful illustrations mixed in with the text. I also had to buy a copy for freshman English as my teacher was an Indian woman. She had use read that and also parts of the Upanishads and the Mahabarata--in English class! lol! I really adored her. She was a wonderful teacher.
Oh Actually ISKCON was founded in 1960's by Srila Prabhupada in USA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._C._Bhaktivedanta_S ) but over the last two decades they have expanded worldwide.
I guess any religion without being religious is a good way to learn about morality/ethics(Although without any religion also one can internalize universal good and bad things). I also feel some of the values they try to imbibe are great for us to learn like Christianity's ten commandments or Islams five pillars.
But when they try to force you to have absolute and total submission of our entire being without any individual objective thinking it gets on my nerves. I always ask the most skeptical questions which drives me not to accept anything as the absolute truth i.e., how could only saved be eligible for heaven (what about so many folks whom one can never reach in remote jungles) and why God can only have one son sent at one time only. Or for Islam why Prophet Muhammed has to be the last and what about Prophet Guru Nanak, why non believers (kafirs) even if they lead moral/ethical lives are meant to be treated as infidels and punished. I can go on. I guess one of the reasons for being agnostic was my questioning about so many things. Even my own beliefs like Karma/Reincarnation I tend to analyze critically. I guess one day I will find some answers if not all. :D
countrywoman, I know what you mean. I'm the same way. I always zoom right in on the one question you aren't allowed to ask (and there is ALWAYS at least one) and then it's all I can think about. So I don't do well with religion at all, but I think faith and religion are two very different things, so I don't worry about it anymore. I'm like you, I don't think we can know everything. It bothers me when people present themselves as knowing it all because they found this or that religion. It's just not even possible.
"Because I know all of you folks in Britain and Europe and Australia and NZ and Greece and Indai and what not, I asked Bill, "Why aren't they shooting abortion doctors in Europe? Why is it just us that seems to have these horrific problems?""
The abortion debate in the UK is very different. It's not political, for a start - if and when issues such as this come up in Parliament, MPs and Lords are given a free vote - that is, no party line, each to his or her own conscience.
And the debate tends to be about the edges - such as whether the much tighter rules for abortion should remain at 24 weeks +, or be lowered to 20 weeks, for example.
I truly enjoyed this well written and wonderfully construted Hub. I must say that being a spiritualist and not believing in religion but believing in God, has given me wonderful freedom of mind. But also as a spirtualist we believe thoughts are things and words have power. What we say is relevent because what we "put out there" matters and not only effects the other person but can effect us as well. Therfore, insulting, hurting, disrespecting or putting someone else's beliefs down simply isn't done. As that would reflect badly on us and in turn put out negative thoughts and words that could come back and bite us on the ...well thank you again for a wonderful hub and an enjoyable read.
Hi LG--Thank you for that answer. It seems to me that the mixture of religion and politics here just obscures the real issues involved. The debate you describe sounds much more sane.
Moonchild60--thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it and all the best to you. :)
pgrundy-
Your piece was thoughtful and well-written. As one who has been similarly labelled as an "anti-christ" more times than Jesus was whipped in Mel Gibson's movie, I was glad to see you handle a topic, and your readership, with deftness and diplomacy...If one is not a christian, your piece confirms what a lot of us already suspect, christianity (of the non-radical sort) is dying in this country...that may or may not be a good thing...regardless of one's faith, I enjoyed your piece because it requires one to seriously think about their own faith, or lack thereof, and it is this kind of introspection, in general, that I feel is indicative of the larger malaise this country is actually suffering from...mahalo
Hi JPRader,
Thank you for your supportive and thoughtful comment. I like how you put it--your thoughts about lack of introspection being a big part of what's wrong with our country right now. I think it's so true. We are all so outwardly-focused and so focused on others, when really it's only ourselves we can change and even that is very hard! Also, I think the obsession with money is a big dead end. It would be nice to see people value themselves and other for reasons that are not purely financial.
Personally I'd just like to see Americans become a bit more open and tolerant. Those were the values I grew up with, and I do see them vanishing. I think fear is the reason for much of it. Certainty seems to calm fear for awhile, so lots of folks are grabbing for it, but it has an afterbite, if you know what I mean. There's a price.
No wonder i am addicted to hubpages, its 2 am in the morning here and i was glued to this post. Intelligent and a great read, i have seen angels and demons this previous weekend and the thought that came out of my mind was the movie revolves around the same thing. The debate seems to just go on, we friends were having a talk about it the other day and i mentioned the forum here discussed it too. I guess the more the divide rises it is going to be difficult to come to a common ground. There is certainly no golden or a one minute fix for this debate but only time will tell what it holds for us. Glad to have read this, you indeed are one of the fine writers here.
Hi Pgrundy, My thoughts on this subject have been pretty much written by other commentors, but I did want to let you know that I really enjoyed this article and I think it is worth sharing with others. Thank you.
Great article and discussion. As a Christian, Christians scare me. The "accept Jesus or go to hell" group is missing the whole point. Jesus said "Love the Lord and love your neighbor as yourself." How did we get from their to condemning our neighbors to hell? Very confusing!
I could have put it more clearly, I think - in the UK, in general, abortion is a medical and private matter, not a political one.
Pam, I read this yesterday and initially decided not to comment because, well, because you said it all and nobody says it better, but came back this morning to just say, thank you for this wonderful piece, so well articulated, on this complicated topic. The day you run for president I'm gonna go and vote for you :-) Besos!
When I first started writing on the internet, I wrote about spirituality and religion. Thinking I could get online and help or save people. I learned it is the nastiest debate. I have also found –no matter how well you write it- if it is about religion the only people who generally read it are the religious freaks who get online trying to one up you with a theme of one up man ship- the “I know Jesus and the word better than you crowd.” I have found as a writer it is best to stick with that common moral values- theme. However somehow in these times that seems to offend too. Moreover, the get out there in the world and do something for others approaches. Golly ghee I found out most of the so called Christians were too busy arguing their religion online to do anything about the environment or performing any charitable act. In addition, the born again atheists were far too busy seeking converts to their new religion to make any positive contribution. I try to stay away from the subject now- it sucks to be called-- ignorant and stupid, blind and it never brings in a convert because the only people who read it are the converts who want to tell you the way you believe is wrong. Oh and the don’t worry about it God is in control. Somehow I really do not feel God is in control of global warming ooops don’t bring that up either or the atheist and Christians will argue with you or make tons of comments on a writing hoping to be read. The bottom line is no matter what you write on the internet someone knows more about it than the writer.
I found your article interesting and you are a very clever writer. Obviously- you know how to stir the pot!
Pam - Like you, I abhor the politicisation of (American) christianity by the new wave of fundamentalists. I wonder if it is a manifestation of terminal decline? Many ancient and great institutions morph into something really ugly before finally giving up the ghost.
BTW, as the only self-professed Rationalist using the forum, my aim is mainly to advocate analysis. I've had some good discussions there but quickly drop out of threads that degenerate to ping-pong or worse. Life's too short (especially for those of us who have only one :)
The reason non-evangelical Christians are declining in America is because they don't want to be associated with what the world perceives as an American Christian. But Christianity is now flipping to a more liberal, social-justice oriented trend. Look at Sufjan Stevens and his following of hipster Christians. It's going to take over!
Hi charanjeet--Hub Pages really is addictive, isn't it? I spent WAAAAY too much time goofing off here myself! lol! I'm glad you enjoyed this article though and I appreciate your thoughts on it.
Thanks LG, I thought you were perfectly clear but I appreciate the additional clarity and I think you're right. I wish it was like that here.
Elena--Thank you! I can never hear too many nice things, especially when they come from you.
Tiara-- The waters are treacherous on this topics, aren't they? I usually don't go there either, I don't know what sucked me in this time--I think it's the spectre of fascism. I still worry about it and it's especially been on my mind lately with the economy still tanking. Thanks for your comments.
Hi Paraglider--I personally do think it's a manifestation of terminal decline. But I also think the 'morph into something really ugly' part is still to come. I hope I'm wrong. I know the lamest thing in the world is to invoke Nazi Germany to make a point--that's very lame and I know it--but I do think often of Germany's decline and how Hitler tapped into pent up anger and frustration with that decline and used symbol--much of it Christian--to whip up the youth and win over the nation. I think about that a lot and don't talk about it because everybody is invoking Nazis these days and it's disrespectful really. That was that, this is this. Still, there are parallels.
Hi Kimberly,
I think you've got a point. I do know some liberal evangelicals who spent most of their time helping poor people and working on social justice programs. We just don't hear from them on the internet because they're way too busy doing useful things!
"Saving ourselves involves living the word"
Salvation is no such thing. Salvation is through continued belief and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the abilities to do this are freely given to us.
I will re-quote Ephesians 2:8 for you, as it would seem you have have not understood it.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Both grace and faith in order for us to be saved are gifts of God - period.
Any form of self-saving is mainstream Christian salvation by works. Self savers have no need of the Lord Jesus Christ, and why? Because they are 'saving' themselves.
this is my first exposure to your writing and i loved it. you write with a very engaging style, very conversational, yet you're mixing in valuable insights and research. I sort of half-agree with everything haha but i'm not going to go into our differences. what you said about words in general was amazing - it's such a beautiful balance that the expression of an idea, the telling of a story can take on cosmic symbolism for a universal audience. thanks for sharing.
also..
i have found the forums to be quite obnoxious as well and i, shameful, have joined into the "who can make the wittiest comment" war. thanks for the appeal to intellectual debate. it's a sad day when abrasive zingers are praised over sincere insights.
Hi elliot.dunn--Thanks, I'm glad you passed on the examination of differences and I'm also glad you found something enjoyable in the article. The forums are SO depressing. I don't know what sparked me to write this hub--it's not like most of my stuff--I guess I just had to get it off my chest or something. I don't find that religious discussions go well most of the time wherever they happen and no matter who is involved, including me. It's too bad--it shouldn't be like that, but you know how it is. It's too hard to discuss politely somehow. They used to say, "Never discuss politics, sex, or religion in polite company," but now those are the ONLY topics anyone wants to talk about! lol!(And who among us ever has 'polite company???')
Oh well. How about those Cubs? lol!
Hi Pam
I just read your Hub and truly it was very well written. And as a true believer in Christ I agree that Christianity will survive.
Lisa
I'm late to the party as usual PG, but I just couldn't help leaving a comment here-- I think I posted in the religion forum just once when I first joined Hubpages and then scurried quickly away. I agree with your assessment of the forum posts totally-- they do seem to mirror the political polarization of this country of ours and I also totally agree that since the '70's Christianity has been totally politicized here in the land of separation of church and state--I too gave up organized religion years ago-- but not faith. I really agree with Jung's comment that the problem with organized religion is that it gets in the way of knowing God. Kudos once again--may the force be with you:-)
People who kills other are sickos and have major problems. It is not the christianity or other things in them that causes it. They are sick and have problems.
And I can't remember who said it, but it is something, "to save yourself you must lose yourself" If you are too busy trying to save yourself, you are missing the point and not doing the good things that need to be done. Think less of yourself and have the caring heart, and this is what will count. Christ taught service to others. Not once did he do something for himself. He fasted for 40 days and nights and was still not allowed to turn the rocks into food, or it would have been a sin. Yet, he can turn a few fish and a basket of bread into enough food to feed a multitude. He lost himself in service to others, that he gave his all, his life, for others.
Some Christian religions appear to be on a decline, yet there a some that are growing faster than every and doubling in membership even as fast as every 15 years. And to the point to being the 4th largest organized religion in the US.
And Pam, I am amazed how you can write these things so well and get so many comments. You are a Professional and amazing writer.
Keep on Hubbing.
Pam,
Nice hub. I've enjoyed reading the reactions, too. There really is nothing better to start a debate than the name of Jesus. It is by far the most polarizing subject you can bring along. The interesting thing about Christianity is that most people who label themselves Christians in America actually are no more a Christian than the atheist, Buddhist or whatever else. A Christian is simply to be a "little Christ." That means living as Christ lived. Another poster noted that we have gone from "Love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself" to all sorts of castigation and--IMO--flatulation of the mouth.
I love Jesus more than anything. Yet, His teachings and way of life are seldom followed as He desires for us to. Most of it falls into the area of "what can this get me?" It's fake. It's hollow. And if you look long enough and wait, the ones that really understand what Jesus taught and expected of those who follow Him will begin to stad out.
My favorite verse in the Bible is Jeremiah 29:13. It says: "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." For me, that sums up the process. I will find the one true God when I put all I have into looking for Him. And if in my heart of hearts, I don't really want Him, then I'll find something that fits what I'm really looking for. Too often, the ones on the political right are pandering to those that use Christianity as a label instead of as the defining characteristic that guides how they live their life.
Thanks for the hub. I enjoy seeing people able to discuss the topic of God the way God Himself would want it discussed: reasonably. Isaiah 1:18 starts off, "Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord." If that is how God wants to talk about Himself with us, how can we be any different in our approach to each other when speaking of that same Lord?
Thanks LPinky--All the best to you! :)
robie--Hi! Long time no see! The force be with you too! lol!
eovery--Well said, thanks for stopping by. :) I do think that guy who shot the doctor was acting out of some kind of mental illness, but it's still chilling. I had to remind myself there's lots of folks who disagree who aren't running around shooting people at church.
Hi Caleb's Dad--I agree about the rebuking part being a lot easier than the 'be quiet and serve' part. We could do with less of the first and more of the latter. Don't know about the Christian litmus test though. Jesus put up with a lot from his followers--they were always doing bonehead things and lots of them were misfits and rejects but he kept them. It would be nice to see more of that spirit but I guess it's silly to expect to find it on the internet! Thanks for your thoughts. :)
I seldom get into the "debate". Being a theologian most of what I read is laughable. When people are pushed into a corner they tend to fight back. Christians in the United States are being pushed by every segment of society so it is understandable some are choosing to push back. They are being called extremists and radicals because they dare defend their beliefs. I see the same pushing against the shrinking group called Americans.
Abe Lincoln said it best, "A house divided cannot stand."
We are a divided nation. Christian beliefs and other religious beliefs are opposite of the predominant non-religion culture prevelant in the United States. Ethics and morals have been redefined in non-religious terms.
The United States as a society has evolved into one of non-commitment. Religious people are people of commitment and are battling against non-religious people who avoid commitments.
Thank you for commenting pacwriter. I do think that describes part of what is going on, but I also think there are a significant number of people (like me for instance) who don't fit comfortably into either camp. I think there are people of faith who don't like what religion has to offer right now, or don't like what they perceive religion has to offer. In so many ways I think the polarized debate is making the group at either end more and more unlikable, which is unfortunate. Thanks again for commenting.
Thank you, PG, for another great hub. It is a masterful blend of style and content.
My respect for your skill and my admiration of your intellect grow with every hub you write.
Q.
Thank you Quillographer!
Courageous and wise hub. Years ago I painted offices of Malachi Investments. Papers were left out over night that listed some of the investors. Major organized Christian religions were investing 6 and 7 figure amounts in the stock market. Why? I always thought that church donations went to the widows and orphans, poor and needy? This was 15 years ago.
Just thought I would add this. Thanks....again...great hub!
Hi Tom,
Yes I think the rules for tax exempt status should be tightened up. If you're going to conduct yourself like a corporation and hire lobbyists and play the market, then you should be fair game for the tax collector. Not that corporations pay their fair share either, but at least it would be more honest.
I heard of one evangelical preacher who doesn't touch door knobs...someone has to be paid to open doors for him. Some of their sabbaticals would make the wealthy envious. I belive that all money "not" used for charity should be taxed.
Fantastic hub. I am brand-new to HubPages and your hub was one of the first I read. Impressive and inspiring. Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
Thank you Healy--I appreciate you coming by. :)
Why would any THINKING person care for it to be saved? That being said, since most people are sheep, Christianity, unfortunately, will likely be around for a long time. BTW, this comment applies also to Islam, religious (as opposed to ethnic) Judaism, Hinduism, etc.
I very much doubt that the religion could die out. It's just one of those religions where there will always be people who will be talked into believing it. It's just that today there are a lot more things to believe in and it's become more exceptable to believe in those other religions. As for the debates, I don't get into those. I'll sometimes read them for a good laugh but for the most part I won't actually post anything, because a lot of them like you said can get absolutely crazy. It's just a bunch of isolated and self-interrepted 'facts' vs. a kind of f*** you attitude. Besides people like that shouldn't be talking about religion to each other: really religious against really atheist. It's a pointless discussion because both are set in their ways and neither is going to change the other's mind. Unfortunately, I doubt anyone will every realize and/or acknowlege this fact.
Great hub by the way ^_^ I love the way you wrote it. Very well done.
Thank you Clove, good points. I appreciate you stopping by and leaving your thoughts. :)
Great hub what a wonderful way to provide the facts with biblical evidence superber ed hub!
mdawson17
As I witness this unending 'debate' dragging endlessly on and on, something in me wilts. What bothers me most, I think, has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the fact that the debate really it isn't really about Christianity at all. What it's really about is whether or not crabby people with Bibles have the right--nay, the duty!-- to browbeat crabby people without Bibles into rhetorical submission.
I liked this statement, as a Christian, I would agree with you, the truth is, if they are crabby they are not Christians. Gal 5:22 speaks about the fruit of the Spirit, as Christians we are not to brow beat people, we are order to love them. God gave us all a will to decide for oursleves which way we want to live our lives. As I grow older and grow in the Lord, I want to be at peace with others, if they accept Jesus fine, if they do not accept Jesus, I still want to be at peace with them. It is not my place to Judge them, but it is my place to love them the best that I can.
Thank you Mdawson and Royal Diadem--I appreciate you taking the time to comment and to read this. Have a great day!
Christianity will survive. Christian values will survive and flourish. We must make sure that the round pegs go in the round holes and the square pegs go in the square holes. If you can't live by the the Lords word don't try to change it to include your sin, repent and change your behavior so your concious can stand to live with you. Keep it simple follow the ten comandments 'Thou shall not kill' means don't kill people. It doesn't include exceptions for age or stage of development, it means don't kill period! The Bible is a guide for life to comfort and encourage us to keep the faith because we win in the end. Christianity is not a political party its a religion that welcomes all on its terms not on the individuals terms. If you behave outside the commandments of God grow up and take responsibilty for your actions and don't try and shove your actions down our throat then claim were the haters. We love you we don't love your sin so check it at the door.
I see your point. The Bible has been translated rather harshly for ages and even some who think they know what it means do not. There are King James only people who don't seem to realize that the New Testament was originally written in Ancient Greek and the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. If you find a good dictionary, you can translate the Greek for what it actually means. The Hebrew of the Old Testament is best translated exactly literally, so you can see where scholars might have inserted their own interpretation of the words.
The Bible closest to the actual meanings is the simplistic one called, "The Message". It has interpreted a lot of passages much closer to what they really mean.
What those in the conservative/fundamentalist Christian thinking that say such things about others don't realize they are judging others. The Bible says to "love one another" and to realize that none are righteous--so we're all in the same boat. If Jesus says that love is most important, you shouldn't condemn them without knowing them or what their future holds. A seed should be planted that grows with the watering of love--we should not sow seeds of destruction and hate. This is not an us against them faith, and too many waste their time trying to make it into a war.
One of my good friends here in Madrid tells me without fail each and every week that his bible is the correct one, and another very good friend tells that HIS bible is the correct one. Each bible is different, and each of these friends holds different religious beliefs. One is Catholic and one is Protestant. Personally I don't care what they want to believe since it is none of my business, although they seem to want to tell me all about it, so I listen and nod a lot, smile when I need to, and then wonder just how they came to their separate conclusions.
I see very little right-wing religion here except for some Catholics who want the days of Franco to return, but nobody here seriously wants Intelligent Design taught in schools, or for religion to be taught in the public schools. It just makes no sense to us, it seems.
PGrundy, I loved your hub and applaud loudly from across the waters at how intelligently and succinctly you make your point(s) known. I know I can sometimes be agitated as an agnostic, and my main point is to ask Christian, and Jews and Musilms, why do you believe what you believe? Besides your holy books, what makes you so certain that only your point of view is the correct one?Most of the time rom Christians I get..."Well, the Bible says..." From others I get "The Holy Quran says..." and so forth. Sometimes I hear "Tradition tells us..."
OK, and then what? I also wanted to ask the question, should Chrsitianity survive? If God is in charge of it all then I guess we'll find out. But why should any religion survive? Will we eventually outgrown the need for them? Maybe, if there is a god, that is the test: We will grow up as a species and no longer need to believe in religious reasons for things we can't otherwise explain.
Hi Aimee--Good points. The Bible was written over a very long period of time by many authors, and the New Testament wasn't even written during Jesus's lifetime. When you take all the different languages and translations into account, it's a wonder any of it makes any sense at all.
Ivan--I actually consider myself to be agnostic in the sense of the literal meaning of the word: I don't know! I mean, I totally take your point--how can anyone profess to know let alone to tell others what to believe? We're all in the same boat I think, and none of us knows how we got here. If people would stop picking up religions and beating each other over the head with them like clubs, that would be a nice start.
I see the decline of Christianity in the U.S. as a dual thing--an actual decline in the number of Americans who self-identify as Christian, and alongside that, a decline in the sense that more and more self-professed Christians practice a degraded version of the faith. You ask, should Christianity survive? I would say, not if it's going to survive in its pseudo-Nazi incarnation. But I don't really know how it will go. In my lifetime I've already had more than enough of it for myself, thank you. Others are welcome to it if they can just rein in the hate. I think the reason lots of people are falling away is directly related to the rise of the ugly right wing sector. It's encouraging that thoughtful people don't want to be associated with that.
We're starting to see a lot of Sarah Palin on TV again. Every time I see that woman I think of "A Handmaid's Tale" and start wondering if there's a mad dash for the Canadian border in my future. Thank you for your comments--It's always good to hear from you. :)
Hi Pam,
Great hub. I only missed this because I rarely venture into the religious hubs section. I am sick of seeing photos of dead babies on them and usually end up having my comments deleted so I gave up. You have hit several nails on teh head. Unfortunatley it is not solely in the USA . I am very dissapointed with Tony Blair's sneaky agenda to shift the focus of education away from secular state schools and towards privately funded faith schools. It is all about power and control - and always has been. :(
Hi Mark,
Yes, we're seeing an uptick in hate crimes here. It was encouraging to see Obama get elected, but now there's a backlash building that is truly ugly. You saw glimmers of it during the campaign at McCain/Pail rallies with people in the crowd shouting out "Kill him!" (about Obama), but now people are actually coming out and shooting people they disagree with and being cheered on for it or at least defended. I do think it will get much worse, but I don't know that there's much to be done about it except refuse to be intimidated. Thanks for stopping by. :)
You are sort of saying a pox on all these houses (different religions), but your title wonders if Christianity can be saved. If you are an agnostic, why do you care? Maybe you, like me are coming around to the realization that it matters, especially as it underpins many of our civilization's ideals, now being eroded.
There may be a reason the Christian right is resurging and that reason may make you uncomfortable, given the politics of the last 4 decades or so, which no doubt we share, more or less.
In my formative years (0-33), I too embraced pro-choice, liberal politics, social welfare, Pierre Trudeau (Cdn PM), affirmative action, foreign aid, human rights, globalization/ free trade, recycling, technology, public health care, global warming, multiculturalism, etc. and eschewed the Pope/ Catholicism, religion in general and motorboats. Like many of my peers. In the many decades since, most of the grand ideas i embraced have either fallen or been found wanting.
The problem is too few folks can or want to see the other side of things. Having lived through the period these ideas held sway, one can if one wants, see the downside of each, the unintended consequences, or in the Popes case, why certain historical ideas or actions occurred & why we ignore him at our peril. Hint: where is the oldest major library in the world?
So if Christianity develops in a way you (and i) don't like, maybe we should look at the underlying reasons/ forces and try to acknowledge them honestly instead of complaining about who is joining which camp. Issues such as violence, secularism, choice vs life, sexual orientation are at the nexus of what concerns you, the roots are historically very deep and excruciating, the consequences severe, and not just in religious terms.
But i had a chuckle over your comment about the AntiChrist. People still looking for him??? Hey folks, he lived in the 6th century and was proud of this idea. Why are folks so confused? Read the Qu'ran, the stuff about partners of God. Whaddya lookin for -- AntiChrist 2.0?? Too funny.
Those who ignore history are doomed to .... drive motorboats!
Cheers.
Excellent hub Pam, articulate and well written in a way that is hard for even the die hard 'Bible Bashers' to get aggressive over. The comments illustrate this fact for the most part, and the normally aggressive brigade cannot be so here because it would simply prove your case is accurate.
They just probably aren't who you think they are. -
I gathered this sometime last year when digging deep to understand what it is all about etc. When I thought of Jesus like qualities and where it was coming from, I was a bit shook about noticing that it was not coming from "christains".
I am actually to the point now were I hardly want to discuss much about religion anymore. It went from a seeming harmless debate a couple years back to an out right smite fest... and I am guilty of it too at times.
In some ways I feel ashamed of my behavior but at the same time I felt like I really needed to be (a so called christian) it to know what is going on, test it if you will and when it became just too much that in not so eloquent of words as you used.
I think they mistakenly worship satan and believe it is god. I shutter, I feel pretty sad, I feel helpless in a sense that no matter how you put it, no matter how much love you show, no matter how much compassion, understanding or humilation you go through to get it accross to some about what they are doing, it always seems to fail disasterously, too much fear not enough "faith" or love I supose.
This is a really excellent hub. :D
LOL Pam, it's nice to be in agreement with you - just for a change :) And of course I don;t expect anything less than an excellent prose from you, even when I disagree :)
Sandy, I think you should not feel ashamed about what you were doing for the last several months, for some reason you needed this for your spiritual development, and we your friends patiently waited for this period to pass. You can't imagine how pleasing and refreshing it is to learn that you finally managed to get over it. Congratulations :)
Thanks Misha, I know ya'll waited. It was just one of those things I really needed to know for myself. :D
Thanks Misty--It has gotten really crazy here in the U.S., but I guess we've always had that as part of our heritage. It would be nice to see it calm down more than a bit. thanks for commenting.
OMG Misha, how did that happen! LOL!
Hi Sandra--I went through years of trying to be a 'good' Catholic before I gave up and noticed that nobody was 'good'. Not me, not nobody! lol! It's the way of the world--IMO all we can do is the best we can, and try to be kind when we can. Thanks for your thoughts. :)
PS--The forums are the pits lately, aren't they. God, Hell, God, Hell, Your God is a jerk, no your God is, no your God is, I know you are but what am I?
Geesh!
I appreciate the time that you took to write this article.However, the reason that alot of people are leaving the main line denominations is one simple fact:They are getting dried up spiritually and are tired of boring unexcited church.People are becoming more Pentecostal because they are getting hungry for the Book of Acts revival!! If you notice,the Book of Acts is the only book of the Bible that does not have an end!! That is because it is still being lived out today.As far as being emotional, it is an amazing thing to me that people will spend hundreds of dollars to go see their favorite sports team play and get excited and yell and scream for that team ,but when they get to church,cannot ever get excited about Jesus Christ. If I ever was going to get emotional, I would want to for the one who died so I could live!Also, Jesus said to out into the highways and compel people to come in. As Christians, we could never be more Christ like as when we are winning souls.Alot of churches today talk alot about this but do not do it.I am happy to say that God has hungry people who are excited,passionate,compassionate and workers for His kingdom.
Well written piece pgrundy. I left a Christian denomination a few years ago because it was teaching false doctrine. Since then I've seen the same thing you do-the churches bending further to the political right in order to counter growing immorality in America. Problem is Christians are so busy with trying to keep America from sliding into filth that we don't mind our own hearts....we're not "working out our own salvation in fear and trembling" as Paul admonished Christians to do. But wait, Christians are saved by Christ, so what is to work out? The answer is simple: Christ warned of those of His people who would take the broad highway that leads to destruction. He wants each of His followers to become disciples, to carry our cross and die to self daily; THAT is working out our salvation-"for God works in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure".
Hi Hxprof--Thank you for your comment. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts here with others. :)
pgrundy. I could not finish reading of your hub and comments. I am not product of nominal Christian and I was not born in this county. I new about America before you were born. I new the history of America was founded. I always admire how come that among all social systems America survived. The difference was Christianity! We always learn something and you should not put Christianity down, just because we are not perfect. Are non-Christians better and how? You mentioned Forums and one could see.... :). I believe that many Christians including so-called fundamentalists realized that someone hijacked our country and they have enough. I think they just want to retain what was existed before which worked and why America is so great. Why are you tearing them down? Seems to me you do not like anyone. Then what do you like? Sorry for my honest comment.
Hi Vladimir--I like lots of people, in fact lots of them are right here at Hub Pages. Thank you for sharing your views even though by your own admission you did not bother reading what I wrote. Have a great day. :)
It is not I do not bother to read, for now I could not. I have to guard my spirit, since someone slander others unjustly. People I know even I might differ myself are honest people and want to protect our country. Don't you see we are going wrong direction what was originally intended? I did not say that I will not finish reading.
I love you but it is my choice.
I'm not slandering anybody. I'm using my brain. We're allowed to do that in the United States.
Hi There
You have a very off the top of the head hub here, lightly glancing over the various for and against arguments, of Christianity. There is a place for everyone with their different opinions and reason, but, it also attracts the like minded and usually creates its own religion, of being a fence sitter, neither going either side, but being able to comment on both.
Truly the most intelligent would have at least commited themselves to both sides at one point in life and eat fully of both sides to have a deeper knowledge and understanding of the sides.
No Christianity cant be saved as it is already saved having the members that have eaten on both sides.
enjoy
Yes each coin has too sides. But worshiping "having an own opinion" is also a "god" people do, then under the same label they slander others. The founders were believers and they were good. But we made separation church and state on soviet model. It is in their constitution not ours. How can you people can be so brainwashed and partial?
Judging by my studies and experience and observations, I don't believe Christianity needs to be saved. Christianity needs to be found. So many people claim to be living for Jesus yet as they make that claim they treat others with hate and hostility. It is written, If a man says he loves God but he hates his brother, he is a liar. Jesus wants us to walk in love and to walk justly.
RJSkains says:
6 months ago
This is a very interesting hub. I love how you managed to write the whole thing without seeming to be on one side or the other. Really great job.