Canada has better health care results and lower cost
76Better Health Care results in Canada and costs are lower.
Canada's health care system produces better results at lower costs than our U.S. system. The infant mortality rate is lower and people live longer in Canada than in the United States. The cost is lower because Canada has universal single payer health care without parasitic insurance companies bleeding Canadians for 30 percent of health expenditures as we do here in the United States. The results are better because NOBODY, however poor, is without health insurance in Canada. It is true that there are sometimes long waits for non-emergency, discretionary surgical procedures. And some Canadians do come to the U.S. for cosmetic and other medical procedures not covered or for which there is a waiting list in Canada. But the bottom line is that overall results are better and costs are significantly lower. Overall mortality in the United States is 29 percent higher than in Canada.
http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?id=1503
9--9-09 NYTimes--Medicare Costs and Care Quality Hightly Variable
- Graphic Showing Cost of Medicare and Quality of Care by State
Louisiana & Mississippi have poorest quality care and Wisconsin and Minnesota the highest. New York and New Jersey have the highest cost, Hawaii, Oregon & N. Dakota the lowest.
Bush to Propose a Tax to Provide Health Care Coverage
Are Drug Companies Bribing Your Doctor?
Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit has taken steps to put a
stop to "freebies" passed out to doctors and their staffs.
Here's a link to an article describing the new policy:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008805230410
Insurance Defined
- Why Health Insurance? by Robert Blumen
Insurance has come to mean the same thing as health care in the minds of Americans. In current opinion, it goes without saying that a third party (known as an insurance company, but not an insurer in the strict sense), should pay most expenses.
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Healthcare starts with the lifestyle you lead and not with a certain health system,the same complaint is made here in Australia, however when you see the way people eat and live, and what they do as for their entertainment, there is no health system that will ever be adequate
Well, in the U.S. more and more people are unable to afford health care. And fewer employers are providing health care insurance for their workers. For people who can afford it medical care in the U.S. is excellent. The problem is too many people can't afford it. This shows up in our third world infant mortality and life expectancy statistics. I completely agree that health care starts with lifestyle. Our eating and exercise habits in the U.S. leave much to be desired. BTW, it's good to see an Aussie participating in this forum. Where in Australia do you live. I've always wanted to visit Australia and New Zealand where sailing is even better than here.
Yes Ralph I live in Melbourne, however my wife's Sister live's in Bloomfield Michigan, and we have been in Bloomfield last year, we were staying there for 3 month so we got to see how the other half of the world live's, Michigan is a nice place and I intend to write an article, about the sleeping Bear, and the Lighthouses we have seen along Lake Michigan.
The Sleeping Bear dune is an incredibly beautiful beach. Our family used to spend two weeks every summer near there on Glen Lake. As I'm sure you've heard, Michigan is in tough shape. Unemployment increased recently to 7.1 percent which is highest in the country by a fair margin.
Immigrate to Canada. Get FREE information at http://www.CanadianCitizen.com on Canadian immigration and learn why being legally in Canada is a top choice country for freedom, jobs and to live and may lead to Canadian citizenship.
Thanks for the comment! Immigrating to Canada as occurred to me more than once. Due to the Vietnam War and, now, the Iraq war. And I have yet to meet a Canadian who would trade their health care system for the U.S. health care non-system.
Our health system isn't great. There's a huge shortage of doctors and nurses, and funding. Right now people can't even find a family doctor, and wait for hours in walk-in clinics and ERs to get prescriptions or for simple medical advice.
Yes, we ALL have health care, in the province I live in we are forced to pay premiums by law. This is the norm for many provinces. Sure, they have subsidies for low-incomes, but it's a myth that health care here is 'free'. Basics are covered for the forced coverage, anything besides doctor visits and hospital stays requires extra medical coverage which one has to obtain through employers or independently.
It looks like the government is pushing us to the limits to get us to embrace a private system by pulling away much needed funding. In desperation, people will pay the extra just to get to see a doctor. In fact, my husband has been trying to get a family doctor for weeks but nobody is taking new patients. He may have to travel four hours away to see someone on a regular basis.
Thanks for your comment. I wonder if you would trade your health care system in Canada for our "non-system" in the United States?
For many the answer might depend on their income bracket. Americans who are rich or whose employers provide comprehensive health care insurance like our system. However, growing numbers of Americans can't afford health insurance and fewer employers provide it. Health care in the United States is very unevenly distributed among the population. Many are fortunate to be able to afford health care insurance, but growing numbers have none. Medical expenses are a leading cause of bankruptcy in the U.S.
I guess it depends on the cost of the healthcare premiums vs. the quality you receive. Our country sells out our natural resources and futures to help fund healthcare. I consider that a price I am paying out of pocket. Our premiums are low, they do cover hospital stays and doctor visits, but you're unable to see a physician regularily, and waiting grossly long times for treatment. Plus, there are people here going broke caring for disabled, invalid and recuperating family members, and trying to foot the cost for expensive drugs not covered by health plans (if they can afford one that will offer prescription coverage).
Twenty-thirty years ago, we had a great healthcare systems. Now it's as neglected and full of holes as any other inadequate over-rated system. People fall through the cracks here, too. Ones that aren't poverty striken enough to get free care, and aren't making enough money to keep each day from being a stressful hand-to-mouth existence.
I don't see either system being the answer. I also see that governments spend far more time and money either promoting their 'great health care' and bickering about ways to fix it than it would actually cost to inject money where it's needed...for medical personnel and beds, rather than for surveys, panels, and any other abominal administration cost the governments love to divert money to. This isn't about a lack of money, its about the government's (both the US and Canada) inability to prioritize for humanity's sake.
From what I've read the French health care system is the best. The U.S. system is the worst, except for the rich and those whose employers provide health insurance.
Our son had a brain injury and had good insurance but the hospital started getting him ready to go under Medicaid and Social Security Disability. I ask them if his care would be as good. They said it would be better. He also received Community Care when he had over $100.000.00 in medical bills that the insurance hadn't paid. They paid all of it. I think the help is out there but the problem is it's so slow in getting started.
3 months to wait for heart surgery in Canada and most are waiting 6 months. They can't work and their losing their homes because of this wait.
Have to agree with Rogue Nestling: healthcare here in Canada is declining rapidly. Yes, everyone gets treated but honestly there are people who die on the wait lists, they are so long.
I would not want to see the US system here but I believe we should have a choice like in Australia (where I grew up) between public and private care. If you can afford it use private, if you can't you still have the public system. And if Canadian doctors were allowed to have a private practice, as well as, working for the public system then we might be able to keep them in this country.
Right now most of them jump ship to the States because they don't earn enough in Canada. Considering the high cost of medical school I don't blame them.
Just my two cents. :)
Thanks for the comments. I live across the river from Windsor, Ontario, and I have yet to meet someone who would trade their health care system for ours. However, I'm not suggesting that Canada's system is not having problems. I have been reading about dissatisfaction with the long waits for some procedures and financial problems as well. However, the bottom line results (life expectancy and infant mortality) are better in Canada than in the U.S. That is apparently because income disparity is much lower in Cnaada than in the U.S., and because health care is provided to all in Canada whereas in the U.S. the rich and middle class who have health insurance get much better care than the poor. And, of course, a much lower percentage of GNP goes for health care in Canada than in the U.S. because thay have eliminated for profit health insurance companies which don't add value to the system while taking 30 percent or so of every healh care dollar.
I still believe that I had a better chance of surviving my breast cancer living in Canada than I would have if I had lived in the US. I would not have been able to afford anything over what my work insurance would have covererd. The chemo drugs themselves would have bankrupted me.
Yes, we have problems. It took me 4 years to find a doctor after I moved. But, I am glad we have it.
Our country is a poor place to be chronically ill!
I hate to burst your bubble deeds, but on infant mortality you need to do some research.
Canada, like European countires only factors birth deaths into the numbers after 48 hours. So if a child lives 48 hours it isn't factored into their birth death rate.
The US factors it in if you take one breath. So this is a case whete stats don't tell the whole story.
I don't know if any American that has run to Canada to get treatment or surgery. But there are thousands of Canadians that come to the States every year for treatment or surgery.
I think we can all agree that the King of Saudi Arabia has enough money to get treatment any where in the world he wants to, and he chooses America. When he needs treatment he comes to Boston at MGH.
Not Cnanda, not Europe, Africa, not Asia----Amierica.
I wonder why that is?
The Shark
Well, I don't know about what differences in the statistics may be between the U.S. and Canada on infant mortality. I'd be interested in the source of your information.
Second, I live right across the river from Windsor, Ontario, and I bump into Canadians quite often. Every time I do I ask them if they'd trade their health care system for ours. And I've yet to meet someone who said yes. Some of them have said that their system is not perfect--delays, etc. And apparently there are financing problems. But my experience indicates that you are not correct.
Here's what the World Health Organization says about U.S. health care versus other countries:
The U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of gross domestic product (GDP) on health services, ranks 18th . Several small countries – San Marino, Andorra, Malta and Singapore are rated close behind second- placed Italy.
Here's the link: http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-44.html
Where do you get your information? Put up or shut up!
Here's another more recent report
Information came from the dept.of health. You can verify that yourself.
Your bumping into people is anecdotal at best, check that statistics of people travelling from Canada for medical treatment in the US, and vice versa.
The same for Britian, check the number of people that come to the states for treatment as opposed to the opposite.
Unfortuately those costs you sight include the costs of two things, extra tests doctors have to run to keep the schiester attorneys at bay. The second is the cost of actual tort costs due to frivolous law suits. Recently one woman sued for having stretch marks following child birth. Unfortuantely this great new govt plan does nothing to address tort reform.
Please--your going to use Singapore, Malta, and San Marino, are you somking funny weed?
There is more world class health facilities just on Brookline Ave in Boston then most counties have, check it out. That one street has, Mass Gen Hospital, one of the top hospitals in the world, a leader in heart transplants, surgery and cancer. Next door is Beth Isreal, next door is Children's Hospital, one of the most sophiticated hlospitals for treating children from neo natal through teens. Next door to that is Dana Farber, one of the top cancer treatment and research centers in the world. In the same block is the Jimmy Fund, world famous cancer center for children. Next door to that is Brigham and Womans hospital, part of Partners and a teaching hospital for Harvard Univ Medical, offering everything form advanced cancer treatment partnered with the Dana Farber and the Lahey clinic. Across the street from that is the Joslin center, one of the leading diabetes treatment and reserach centers in the world.
Deeds, please don't insult us.
This is one block and doesn't include Boston Medical a few blocks away. In Addition to many suburban hospitals some of these world class facilities are now building 2nd and 3rd hospitals in the suburbs, Mass General and the Lahey clinic have just opened huge state of the art facilities in Davers and Burlington MA.
The only reason health care is now a crisis is becasue Obama said it is, he needs something for his lame legacy, I guess the trillion dollar defecit isn't enough.
Every president has something they try to leave us with:
Kennedy had NASA, Nixon opened China, Carter destoyed our military strength and our economy and our national confidence, Regan won the cold war, restored our military strength, and restored our economy and national confidence,
Bush Sr had the gulf war and drove Sadam out of Kuwaitt and showed that Arab counties could work with the west, Clinton had Monica Lewinski and the blue dress, Bush W had 9/11 occur and pulled us through and saw we were never hit again,
and liberated Iraq once and for all, now Obama wants govt to run health insurance.
I can understand coming from Canada why you support govt run programs, but it's not the way we do things in America. And the majority of Americans want to see America stay the home of individualism.
The Shark
Shark, I'm wasting my time with you. You're a bullshit artist. I don't feel a need to check any more statistics. You have provided none. I have provided several that you have ignored. If you have some put 'em up here. Just about everybody but you agrees that there is a health care crisis--1. Because 40 million people aren't insured and, except for the rich ones, have to rely on emergency room care and 2. Because costs under the present system are going up at a rate that soon nobody will be able to afford it, thanks to waste of various kinds.
deeds, 35 million of them are lillegals.
We also estimate that 34% of drivers in MA are unisured as well, as reported by the commonwealth auto reinsurance facility. So I guess we have an auto crisis too, so nationalize auto insurance. We also have 9.5% unemployment, that would translate to about 20 million people out of work, so maybe we need a national work program, let's bring back the ccc.
According to the national life institute we have approx, 39% of all adults without life insurance---Crisis---Govt needs to provide life ins.
What % of the population do you think has no dental ins---care to guess. Well according to the national ins institute that figure would be a whopping 56%----Crisis---we need govt dental ins.
Deeds people like yourself think that govt is the answer, it's a socialist way of doing things, and seeing as you are from a socialist country I expect you to depend on the govt for help. When I was in Montreal a local tour guide was bragging about the "free" health care system they have. I talked with him a while after the tour and asked if he owned a house, he laughed and said with the taxes we pay--I can't afford a house. Well with our private health care crisis system we have in America I own two houses.
And I pay for my own health insurance.
While in Canada I bought a shirt at the mall and the it was about $80. and when I got to the register the woman rang it in and it came to about $130. I said she made a mistake, she laughed and said welcome to Canada---taxes. So much for "free" health ins.
Deeda as like most liberals, when you can't make your argument you reduce it to name calling and personal ridicule.
The leader of your party, if you are even a citizen, is Clinton and he was the king of name calling and finger pointing. He called it the politics of personal destruction, and he was the best at it.
The Shark---heading to a rally tomorrow to try to pry our useless congressman out from under his desk to answer a few questions.
Your figures aren't even close to being accurate. And nobody's advocating dental insurance so far as I've read.
You should change your moniker from Shark to Blowfish. I don't have time to waste on your disjointed, illogical, inaccurate bloviations.
Not yet deeds, but they weren't advocating national health care two years ago either. But in the words of Mark Twain---just wait a minute.
You really think this is the last social program the libs will ever advocate?? If so I got a great bridge I'd love to sell you.
I love the way you say my figures aren't accurate, which figures, and why don't you go to the sources, I gave you the names.
What is the income tax rate in Canada, and what is the sales tax rate?
I almost got sick when a client of ours transfered here from Canada and showed me the sales tax bill on his Lexus.
And I got sick and I live in a state that has a 6.25% sales tax!!
I notice you didn't respond to the, If you are even a citizen, comment.
I guess that answers that, and if I'm right then Candians should keep out of our internal affairs. You guys love monarchies and socialism, We fought a revolution to get away from the monarchy and the cold war to keep socialism away.
The Shark---Keep America Free
The Shark? Wow--just wow. HIs unbalanced rant kind of speaks volumes.
In Ontario, where my brother lives, that $80 shirt would be subject to 5% federal and 8% provincial sales tax, for a cost of $90.40. Steep compared to Atlanta, where I live, but a far cry from what the Shark claims. And according to this site, Ontario's combined rate is the highest in the country (tied with the "HST" charged in the Maritimes.)
http://www.taxtips.ca/pst/pstrates.htm
Either the shark is totally blowing smoke, or the lady in his story who charged him 62.5% knew a mark when she saw one.
Here in Atlanta, Grady Hospital is in crisis, to a large degree because of uninsured folks using the ER as a health clinic. That's alarming, because the hospital's site says: "Grady Memorial Hospital serves as the only Level-1 trauma center in metro Atlanta and for 100 miles in all directions." Last I heard, the kidney dialysis clinic is at risk, as they try anything to contain costs.
Another underappreciated problem with the status quo is that health care costs are a huge drag on business generally. The leading example is GM; their health care cost burden was a big factor in their financial struggles leading up to the recession. But the cost of providing health care is in effect a "privatized tax" on business.
Final comment: it's anecdotal, but my cousin lives in Canada but works in the US; his daughter has some serious health issues. Although my cousin's insurance covers her, and she does receive some care in the US, they still use care providers in Canada as well.
Thanks for your comment. HubPages attracts all kinds.
(Quebec 7.5 12.875 Provincial rate also applied to federal 5% GST.)
I pasted this sales tax from a tax breakdown by Provinces in Cananda.
Unbalanced? I ask a simple question---do you think this is the last big social program the libs will ever look for?
I am sure when soc. security passed they said, ok no more,
then medicare, then medicaid. Now our health care--the question is where does it end?
To socialists it's a rant and a ---it attracts all kinds, great coming from a non-citizen.
How would you feel if I moved to Canada, did not become a citizen then, like deeds, complained and whined that the Canadian govt needed to change to fit my needs and give me stuff.
That's what we're up against here, we have an estimated 35 million illegals that don't have insurance.
Politically---if Obama gets the insurance, then declares amnesty and they become citizens----what party do you think garnishes their votes?
So is this a health bill, or a party building vote disguised as a health plan?
Go Deeds, tell me
As for GM, thank the unions and the idiots at GM for that mess. GM gave in to huge demads for health and pension benefits.
So you don't think the cost of health care will be a huge drag on our tax system?
I know Obama is painting this rosy scenario of deficit neutral, but do you really believe this?
Tell me what govt construction project that has ever come in on budget. Tell me what military contract has ever come in on budget?
The govt built an underground expressway as an extension of interstate 93 in Boston, MA. Cost given for the project was
3.5 Billion, staggering enough on it's own---care to guess what the final cost ended up being?
Try 14.7 Billion with an additional 7 billion in unexpected interest on money they ended up borrowing for a whopping
22 Billion dollar price tag. ( to try to fix this mess the Governor has proposed increasing tolls by a mere 133% and has requested a 80% increase in the gas tax!!
Your hero, Barney Frank of Fanny May fame, said, rather than lower the expressway, it would have been cheaper to raise the city!!
These are the same people giving us assurances that it will be deficit neutral.
This thing is the new Emperor's clothes.
If it is such a good thing, why are they so afraid of it being read and debated that they tried to ram it through in two weeks.
If it's that good, let them debate it, get the kinks worked out and get some improvements in.
But I think we all know the answer to why the rush.
Shark
LOL---you link the New York Times, a real non partisan paper---lol. They can't sell one of their Boston Globes even in a liberal state, the Herald, a conservative paper kicks their behind.
The NY Times, The LA times, The Boston Globe, MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN all have a great deal invested in Obama. ALL of thses outlets essentially became part of the Obama campaign.
Obama is so arrogant about that fact that he had two great quotes recently. In one instance he said to the White House Press corp , Look you all voted for me--no laughs, next he made the great comment at press conference, I wrestled all night on this issue and couldn't sleep, so I rolled over and asked Brian Williams what he thought.
And you want to trust these people to be objective about health care?
Let's not forget Chris Matthews, "I get a tingle up my leg everytime he speaks", and how about this memorable one, "It's my job to see that this President succeeds."
Private health care has to operate within their premium structure, and despite this the govt is claiming health care costs are out of control?
Do You or anyone out there really believe that health care costs are going to go down because the govt is running it?
The only way that could happen is services go down or are eliminated all together. Now if Obama is telling the truth and services won't go down, then costs will continue to escalate.
So where does this extra money come from?
The CBO report says that they see no cost reductions, just the opposite.
This whole thing will end up being nothing more than a new with holding tax in the future.
The bill calls for us to turn in our check book information for two reasons:
1: It stipulates that the health provider will debit on the spot from your ck acct any services not covered by the plan, thereby guaranteeing the provider a payment.
2: The bill stipulates that if a person fails to pay their health insurance premium their wages will be garnished.
Who is running this thing, the IRS?
What would happen if the govt eliminated with holding taxes and you were required to send a check qtly for your taxes to the IRS.
How many Americans would put that money aside and make that payment on time every qtr?
The number of people in default would be staggering---hence the govt came up with the with holding provision.
I believe the same thing will happen to health care, once the numbers of people falling behind on premiums becomes unmanagable we will have a health care with holding tax.
MA has mandatory health ins, and if you fail to pay because you can't afford it you get a $1500. fine for not being able to pay for what you can't afford!!
And the State ins plan is not cheap.
But if this what the people want, then we'll get it, then after fed income tax, ss tax, medicare tax, and a new health tax along with our state income tax, state excise tax for our cars, property taxes, state sales tax, meals tax, hotel room taxes, plane ticket taxes, alcohol taxes, and all the invisible taxes, i.e. state gas tax, fed gas tax, state tobacco tax, fed tobacco tax, fcc tax on cells, fcc tax on land lines, fcc tax on cable, preium tax on car, home, and life ins, and sec tax on mutual funds and other investments,
we'll pay govt in one form or another about 60% of our income.
The we will be Canada---welcome home Deeds.
Shark
The doctors who wrote the op-ed don't work for the NY Times. Atul Gawande is the most knowledgeable and thoughtful person now writing about health care.
And, regarding Canadian sales taxes (GST and PST), in Quebec you pay .5% less than Ontario--total. My point stands, particularly since Shark claimed 62.5%.
Regarding the alleged 60% tax burden in Canada--I assume he's talking about income tax here--StatsCanada says that in 2004, the average household spent 20% on personal taxes.
http://www42.statcan.ca/smr08/smr08_022-eng.htm
Shark seems to have some problems with attention to detail.
I wonder if he's noticed the detail that Canada has been running budget surpluses for most of this decade, and is now comfortably able to afford a modest deficit for stimulus spending in 2009? Those reckless socialists!
Thanks, Doc. Here's where the Blowfish is coming from:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/opinion/14krugma
Republican Death Trip
President Obama had campaigned to move beyond divisive politics, but instead he is facing an opposition that eagerly seizes on every wild rumor manufactured by the right-wing media complex.
The hysteria from some has indeed been amazing. My guess is that it isn't going to play well over time, though.
I hope not. Health care reform is too important to everyone for us to allow it to be blocked by a bunch of people like the "Blowfish."
From what I have read one of Obama's promises was that he would bring in national healthcare. He is keeping that promise. Obviously, a lot of people voted for him to do exactly that.
I'm sure our just-to-the-right of Bush Prime Minister, Mr. Harper loves been referred to as a socialist :)
I don't have much of an opinion about US healthcare, because I do not know enough.
However, the lies and propaganda told about other nations is disgraceful. We have Universal Healthcare in Greece, yet I pay no income tax, just a flat rate 20% sales tax and a few Euros a month to the municipality. My combined health insurance/pension payment is about $150 per month.
Very happy with that :)
I live in Massachusetts and have many friends and family that have benefited from the Massachusetts plan. My nephew has asthma and is a self-employed film editor. No private insurer would cover him, and because he is self-employed did not qualify for public help. Under the Mass. plan he pays $220 a month and has great coverage with a private health insurance company. He was considering moving to California until he realized he would not be able to have health insurance.
I can go on and list many many people who have been able to pick up insurance. No it isn't "cheap" and we've had to reallocate financial resources, but it's made it possible to have health insurance. When before health insurance companies wouldn't even look at many people because of age or health status.
People over 50 on Cape Cod can get a plan for $477 a month, which is less than half of what my friends pay for in other states, and it has better coverage than those other states, because everyone has to have it, not just the sick.
Yes I voted for Obama, because I wanted a major overall of the healthcare in this country. I have many friends in Canada, England, and France and they are amazed at how much energy and worry we have to go through in this country at finding decent health care.
And I will remind some, that it was a Republican governor in Massachusetts that championed this program.
I live in Massachusetts and have many friends and family that have benefited from the Massachusetts plan. My nephew has asthma and is a self-employed film editor. No private insurer would cover him, and because he is self-employed did not qualify for public help. Under the Mass. plan he pays $220 a month and has great coverage with a private health insurance company. He was considering moving to California until he realized he would not be able to have health insurance.
I can go on and list many many people who have been able to pick up insurance. No it isn't "cheap" and we've had to reallocate financial resources, but it's made it possible to have health insurance. When before health insurance companies wouldn't even look at many people because of age or health status.
People over 50 on Cape Cod can get a plan for $477 a month, which is less than half of what my friends pay for in other states, and it has better coverage than those other states, because everyone has to have it, not just the sick.
Yes I voted for Obama, because I wanted a major overall of the healthcare in this country. I have many friends in Canada, England, and France and they are amazed at how much energy and worry we have to go through in this country at finding decent health care.
And I will remind some, that it was a Republican governor in Massachusetts that championed this program.
What deeds doesn't get is that none of us are against Health care reform, but reform shouldn't be a take over by the fed.
But as, using his words, "a card carrying member" of the DNC I understand why he looks to govt as the sole answer to a problem. And as a usual card carrying member reduces the debate to name calling---good one deed ---real mature!
I want the provision in the bill that states that any co. that has a payroll over 281,000 will incur a penalty tax if not opting for the govt plan removed. Because Obama keeps saying, if you like your ins. you can keep it, but what co is going to pay the penalty? The will all move the govt plan, so how do you keep whatis not availabe? And he has not given a satisfactory answer yet.
Nelle, glad your nephew got ins, but it's private. The MA health connector gets you ins through private carriers.
Obama's plan doesn't allow for that.
Deeds, if we are going to have a serious discussion let's drop the name calling. If you only want a discussion with people that agree with you I'll stop posting on this site. The good thing about hubs is that it allows debate of opposing positions.
Shark
Shark, which version of "the bill" are you talking about? Can you point us to this provision, somehow?
No offense intended, but I've not heard of such a requirement before--and have heard some really serious distortions or outright untruths around this topic--so I think we all need to be serious in our fact-checking. Can you help on this one? Do you recall where you heard about this?
Ok here you go highlights from several of 1012 pages:
Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
If you don't have acceptable health coverage, you will be taxed "equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of — (1) the taxpayer’s modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year, over ‘‘(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer." As long as that tax "shall not exceed the applicable national average premium for such taxable year."
Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
Sec59B(c)(2). Non-Resident aliens who don't have acceptable health coverage won't be taxed as though they were a Citizen. There is actually a whole long list of people who won't have to pay the tax for not being covered.
Read it and weep.
Oh and deeds as a caviat to your great Canadian Health Care system, today the Vancouver Sun reported that at least 6,000
necesary surgeries may be cut due to a whopping 160 Million dollar "shortfall",(govt speak for defecit), They report this will cause major delays for people waiting for everything from chemo to neuro surgery!!
Here is a cut and paste of their headline, you can go and read the whole surgery:
Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver due to government underfunding, leaked paper
By Darah Hansen, Vancouver SunAugust 18, 2009
The Shark
Works for me.
The fact is Canada ranks ahead of the U.S. on ALL rankings by the World Health Organization
http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_perfo
Life expectancy at birth
Canada--81.23 years
U.S.--78.11
Source for numbers--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_
Do you have any better statistics? If you do put 'em out there or shut up. As Barney Frank put it yesterday "I don't have time to debate with tables."
I swear I want to move to Massachusetts just so I can vote for Barney Frank :)
The CIA Factbook also has the same life expectancy numbers (just incase Shark doesn't want to believe the others).
About the surgeries:
"the VCHA's senior media relations officer, Anna Marie D'Angelo, described the proposal as “a planning document that outlined one possible approach we might be looking at.”
“No decision has been made to implement it … so it's inappropriate to say it's a done deal,” Ms. D'Angelo said. “It's certainly not going to be implemented any time soon.”
Do any of you actually read?? I never mentioned anything about life expectancy. I was asked where I got the information about employers being taxed if they elected to keep their employer insurance plan because Obama keeps saying you can keep your ins. But what co is going to pay the penalty tax when they don't have to pay by opting for the govt plan?
So I highlighted the pages and sections of the bill itself to show where the info came from and to show it wasn't me making it up.
In addition, whether Canada actually elects to cut 6200 surgeries is not the issue. The issue is that they WOULD even consider doing this.
So uninvited says "It's cetrtainly not going to be implemented any time soon."
Really---you can guarantee that?? So maybe it will happen a little down the road when you need surgery, I guess that would be ok.
The fact that their plan is $160 million in the red spells the fact that it isn't working---they have their own crisis going. Today Dr Brian Day of British Vancouver said that the "crisis" is bad enough that rationing and delays will be "inevitable"!!!
And you ask if I have a better stat??
What more would you like??
As for uninvited, you would like to vote for Barney Frank?
This is a congressman whose live in boy friend was charged with running a male prostitution ring from their apt.
But in MA these type of things don't matter. I find it interesting that someone that blogs using their free speech right thinks it is good that elected "reps" disrespect the voters trying to get answers and voice their opinion on the bill, both pro and con.
We can't even get our rep to hold a meeting, he's hiding under a desk somewhere.
We are beyond entering the slippery slope, you have Sen Waxman demanding payroll records from private ins co's. Today a senator interviewed on MSNBC, I didn't get his name but I can find out by tomorrow, came out during an interview and said private ins co's are not a commodity and we don't need them. He asked what do they bring to the table?
The interviewer, even on liberal msnbc, couldn't believe what he was hearing. you can probably see it on their web site.
This admin has declared war on private industry.
Maybe you are all ok with that, most Americans are not.
Deeds, again I tried to have a conversation and debate on things that I backed with facts. Unfortuantely you seem to always want to reduce the debate to name calling. This is a tactic used by most liberals, which you qualify as by your own admission---"a card carrying member."
That was ok, it's your right, but I thought we could have a reasonable discussion, I see I was wrong.
When dealing with liberals it's their way or no way.
If you care to read yesterdays post again about the taxes that will be imposed on co's feel free, or you can continue to ignore the facts. It's where we are heading.
The MA plan, which Obama's has taken a lot from, has just about bankrupt the state. Anyone earning $40,00 and under gets MA Health, the state insurance plan, for free!!
The gov said the plan has been wildly successful except for the funding. Is he joking---except for the funding??
Yhea--when you give other people's money away it's funny how people actually show up to take it. Just like cash for clunkers, a transfer of tax payers money to others to buy cars. If this is not socialism I don't know what is.
MA is desperately trying to find money where ever they can.
Uninvited you brought nothing but immature remarks to this conversation.
Deeds, seeing as you are only looking for people to blog with that support your way of thinking I'll leave you to your ilk.
If you care to actually have a discussion you are free to visit my hub.
The Shark
Bye, bye. Have a nice day.
Thank you for making my point, don't let the facts get in the way of your posts deeds.
Keep up the good work representing those union members, of course just think of all the new people you will have to represent if govt health comes in.
You'll have boards, and governing boards, and oversight boards and more Unionized government employees then we could ever have imagined.
I guess we know at least one sector of the economy will grow----government unionized workers, guraranteeing deeds---- a canadian---- lifetime employment on the backs of the American taxpayers.
You couldn't even address one fact I posted directly from the bill---what is wrong with you liberals that you run from facts and hide under desks? My useless congressman is doing the same thing, hoping and praying that the recess ends so he can go back to his safe haven in Washington.
To everyone out there, I guess if we want a serious discussion on this matter we have to meet up on a different hub, where if you post parts of the bill it will actually be discussed.
This hub skips the entire posting of parts of the bill hoping no one notices the facts. Come to think of it, that's exactly what our congressman are doing---pay no attention to that imposed employer tax in the bill if they keep their plan-----ignore it, we will never impose it---right!!
Shark
Ralph, your comments are bang-on! Doc Snow, nice backup. The Shark is floundering in a sea of his own misinformation. I needed an emergency appendix removal when I was a broke university student. I went from emergency to the operating table in less than 3 hours (which most likely saved my life). The doctor told me that if I had to pay for that operation it would have cost me $26,000! I didn't pay a cent and the treatment I received was stellar. If I had had to pay that bill I would have had to give up on my university education and get a job to pay off the huge debt - which would have negatively impacted me financially, mentally, etc., for the rest of my life. That was 20 years ago and I am now a middle-aged family man with a great job (thanks to my university education), who is glad to pay some of his taxes to support a system that saved his life when he had no way to pay! I also love the fact that anytime I need medical attention for something I can go to a medical clinic in a shopping mall without an appointment...for FREE! Earlier this summer I sprained my thumb playing football at the company picnic. I drove to the closest clinic, waited about 15 minutes, saw a doctor who examined my hand, gave me a prescription to reduce the swelling and prevent infection, wrapped it up and sent me on my way. I had my prescription filled at the pharmacy next door (15 minutes), also FREE, because my company, like almost all companies in Canada, provides employees with extended health insurance which includes free prescription drugs after a $15 deductible. For the poor or unemployed or for seniors, the government provides free prescription drug coverage so one way or the other this is also covered. Furthermore, the drugs themselves are much cheaper than in the US in any event because they are often generic. It is sure perversity, or ignorance or (most likely in the case of the medical industrial complex, greedy self-interest) to NOT offer the same kind of a health care system in the US that EVERY other developed and most undeveloped nations offer to their citizens. I watch the hyperbole and lies on FOX and it almost makes my stomach turn. I know for a fact that the British are furious at the way their NHS has been portrayed by the loony FOX. Sadly, Canadians are used to this kind of ignorance of all things Canadian so we generally turn a blind eye or shake our heads smugly. Certainly, the US could learn from other countries with better health care systems but the big question is, WILL THEY?
Thanks for your comment. I've heard similar comments from many Canadians across the river in Windsor.
Here's an item from yesterday's USA today-
Explanations for why the USA has the highest dialysis death rate in the world vary. Some U.S. kidney doctors say that countries with national health programs, such as Britain, withhold dialysis from the oldest, sickest patients, while the Medicare program takes all comers. But foreign doctors deny that their countries ration dialysis. They — and many of their U.S. colleagues — attribute the higher U.S. death rate in part to Medicare's own payment system and the resulting "one-size-fits-all" treatment.
To what plan??? That would be the government medicare plan they blame?---again thanks for the support deeds.
Shark
Yes. The government Medicare plan which is far from perfect and the medical and hospital profession. Medicare needs to do a much better job of controlling costs. However, it does a better job than the private health care providers and insurance companies.
Hi Ralph! I didn't know you had a hub on healthcare. Great comments, and as always I learned from reading your posts.
ACanadian - great attitude and perspective. And yes, hopefully, America will swallow her often over-inflated ego and learn some things from the examples of other countries. America is a great nation, I would never say otherwise, so anyone ready to call me an anti-american can stow it. But part of being great is being humble and always learning and growing. Shoot, our initial ideals which made us so great in the first place came largely from the great minds of europe, and those ideals were mostly based on the belief that all men -and women- are equally deserving of opportunity, liberty, respect, and a government that provides them with an environment in which they can pursue individual thought, practices and happiness.
A hundred years ago you could still pay off a doctor with a couple of chickens or a few jars of homemade jam. Things have changed, and overall they've changed for the better. The technology we have today would stun and fascinate the great thinkers of the past.
What the great thinkers of today have to figure out is how we're going to meet the financal challenges our great progress has brought us. Sixty, seventy years ago, health insurance was a good idea, but it isn't working anymore.
Why is it that so many people seem to believe that a working waitress or ditch digger simply doesn't deserve health care? It is a simple fact of society that not everybody can achieve a comfortable income. This doesn't mean that those who do not are lesser beings. While all humans are equally worthy and deserving of respect -to a large degree anyway- we do not all have equal access to opportunity. No, we don't. I know many people will deny this, and some will offer stories about how they made it quite fine thank you and from very humble beginnings, and may even point to government programs designed with the intent to give the little guy a hand up, we still do not have equal access to opportunity, and we never will. We can not regulate peoples' personal experiences. We can encourage, we can educate, we can provide a societal environment, but we cannot ever ensure that every person has equal access to financial opportunity.
We can, however, find a way to provide even the most hopeless among us with a FAIR chance for a healthier survival. And there is no single answer. And we probably will not get it perfectly right with whatever bill we end up with in 2009. But as long as we pretend that nothing is wrong, the cost isn't in just their health, but in our beings. The sickness that has become even more apparently rampant than that of the uninsured, is that of the uncaring.
Yes, the well-being of a nation's peoples is that nation's concern. A government that only works for some of its good people, or even most of its good people is still lacking. The question isn't how much is this going to cost us. The question is how do we really, effectively fix this without going broke.
The house bill's not perfect, the senate proposal is incomplete, and not perfect even in its parts. But they're better than anyone else has come up with so far, and they're a step in the right direction. If we wait for perfection, we'll never get there, everybody knows that is true in all things. We have to start. As a caring people, seeing a problem, we have to move in the best way we know how to until a better way presents itself. If the house bill costs us 65 billion over the course of the next decade, and does good along the way, then that's what we have to go with for now. If some congressman -democrat or republican- has an idea that will make it better, then let him or her speak up.
But all this naysaying and finger-pointing and doom predicting and OUTRIGHT LIES AND FEAR MONGERING PARTISANSHIP are pointless and unproductive. I really don't give a hoot what's wrong with Canada and the U.K., I want to know how we can fix things here in the U.S.
I see things that can be improved in the proposed bills, but man it's never the dumb stuff I hear people complain about. When I wrote my first hub on healthcare reform and the arguments against it I thought to myself that truly there was no point explaining about the myths of 'death panels' and rationing. I was wrong. No, I was right, because I could talk till I was blue in the face or type till my fingers fell off and the same people would still insist that Obama was out to kill their grandma.
And really, what kind of low-down person would talk about Obama wanting to kill their grandma when they know his own grandma died just last year? Or accuse him of rationing, when they know his own mother had to suffer through battles with health insurers in her last days? Do these people really believe this garbage?
Sometimes, some Americans really disappoint me. If all I had was that share of the population to look at, I would truly believe that our great American experiment had failed.
But the real problem is that they're terrified of what it will cost them. But they shouldn't be terrified of what our leaders in Congress are trying to accomplish, or of the methods they wish to employ, they should be terrified of their own leaders who are telling them these lies and inspiring these fears. Those people who are using their obviously misgiven influential powers are either utterly, unbelievably stupid, or truly incapable of good moral judgment, or lacking in intellectual discernment, or they're up to something.
At the lower leader levels, such as religious leaders, it's number three. They're following what they think is right, but haven't really got the intellectual discernment to realize it's wrong. At the higher level, it's number four. They've followed a party line for so long they don't want to admit it's wrong, or they don't wish to lose the power and/or prestige that they have, or they've become so lost in partisanship that they just want the democrats to fail.
Well, darn, Ralph, I rambled on and on. Being succinctly concise isn't among my gifts.
There were other things I meant to say after reading all the comments here, but I forget what now. Thanks for the thought stimulation, lol. If it wasn't so late I'd go write a new hub. Wish I had more time.
Good hub.
TC, thanks for your thoughtful comment. The outlook for meaningful reform doesn't look good at the moment.
This is a good Hub! Good research! Thanks!
You wrote this 3 years ago. Did you already know something was coming down the pike?
Keep on Hubbing!
The subject has interested me for many years. The simplest thing to do now would be to allow anybody who wanted to to enroll in Medicare and pay a premium or keep their current insurance coverage. Or they could enroll in Medicare and buy a Medigap policy to plug the holes in Medicare.
Robert Blumen: I believe that the word insurance has come to mean the same thing as health care in the minds of most Americans. In the current climate of opinion, it goes without saying that a third party (known as an insurance company, but not really an insurer in the strict sense) should pay most health care expenses. The idea of cash payment – the way we pay for most services – is inconceivable. While the pathologies of the current health care system and possibilities for reform are a huge topic, I will attempt to address only a small corner of the issue: the preoccupation with three- and four-party payment systems.
livelonger says:
3 years ago
I agree. If people realized the full picture of our country's healthcare system, compared to how it's done elsewhere, we'd start to see some changes. Healthcare costs are growing at double-digit growth rates every year, so I think eventually we'll be forced to face reality and overhaul the system.