Chemtrails - my story and research
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How I came to believe and disbelieve in chemtrails
I first heard the term chemtrails several years ago in Nexus magazine. It is said that "there are two types of people in the world - those that read Nexus and those that don't," and I am one of the former type. What this really means is that there are people who are fascinated by and believe in the reality of all manner of subjects that never get mentioned in the mainstream media, and that if you are one of these people and want to keep up to date on the latest info on conspiracy theories, alternative history, alternative health, UFOs and suppressed scientific discoveries then Nexus is the publication to read.
I had probably read an article by Canadian journalist William Thomas, who was one of the first people to bring the phenomenon to public attention and he even wrote a book on the subject - Chemtrails Confirmed.
Thomas claims that barium and aluminium oxide are among substances being sprayed by planes into the sky. It is theorised that this operation was started because of a proposal in 1998 by Dr Edward Teller aka "Father of the H-Bomb" and "Dr Strangelove," who suggested that a sunscreen of reflective metallic particles could be formed to curb the effects of global warming, and he put forward this idea when he addressed the International Seminar On Planetary Emergencies.
Thomas also suggested that widespread illness was being caused by the barium and other toxins in the chemtrails, and that epidemics of "flu-like illnesses" were due to the trails.
When I first saw info about this in Nexus I didn't take that much notice but filed it away as something to be aware of as a possibility. I also thought it was a problem perhaps in Canada and America but for now the UK was safe.
Then over the years I started to notice trails being left by planes that didn't fade away quickly like the contrails I had been seeing since my childhood but that stayed for hours. I love walking and looking at the natural world about me and I noticed that these trails were different.
These new trails didn't look right. These new trails messed up the beauty of the sky. These new trails were not what I was used to.
I realised that what I had been seeing increasingly frequently were what Thomas calls chemtrails and that now they were being created over Cardiff and South Wales where I lived. It was as if the threat of chemtrails had come into my world.
I had read about how the chemtrails make people ill and that flu and respiratory problems are some of the main symptoms of having been exposed to toxins in the air that have come from the trails. I noticed how every time there was a lot of flu going around, or "the lergee" as many people call it in Cardiff that there had been these new long-lasting trails in the skies.
The strains of flu over the years had been getting to make people much more ill it seemed than the illness used to. People would say "this flu's a killer" and "I just can't seem to shake it off."
I do my best to keep healthy and take a range of supplements and use colloidal silver if I feel I am going down with anything. As it happens I learned about this remedy in Nexus magazine too.
Having said that there were a couple of times I did get ill with terrible colds or flu that lasted a long time and were not like I was used to. I point this out because the severity of the flu-like illnesses appeared to coincide with the increased presence of what I now knew as chemtrails.
I didn't have many friends in Cardiff who shared my beliefs or interests in conspiracy theories and my studies in these areas were personal or shared with like-minded people I would meet online.
I read all leading conspiracy theory author David Icke's books and I studied other sources of information on the subject. I was becoming even more a conspiracy theory and chemtrail researcher and spent time on conspiracy sites where I found loads and loads of info about chemtrails.
That they existed I was very sure of. That they were harmful I also believed.
In 2004 I moved to Tenerife and amongst a long list of things that attracted me to the island was the fact that besides the excellent weather we usually had very clear starlit skies at night and plenty of sun by day with no chemtrails even though there are plenty of planes arriving and leaving the two airports daily.
But then one day I saw them - they were the long-lasting trails that linger and spread out into hazy whitish sky. Oh no, I thought - even here in Tenerife we are being sprayed by chemtrail planes!
And at this point in time when there were chemtrails over Tenerife there was also a flu-bug going around and terrible rainstorms. I connected the dots and thought the trails were causing the illness that was affecting people as well as the really bad weather.
You see, weather modification experiments and the use of chemtrails for military purposes is also a strong belief in chemtrail conspiracy theory. By that time I had become so disgusted with what I believed was being done all over the world that I had befriended countless other chemtrail-believers and had even bought a "Say No To Chemtrails" T-shirt.
I had read up on many websites about how weather modification was being used by the elite or the shadowy Illuminati to bring about deliberate droughts and crop failure as well as to be used as evidence of climate change and Global Warming as being pushed by Al Gore and many others. Conspiracy theorists were saying this Global Warming drive was a scam.
Further, that these evil people known as the Illuminati were engaged in a cull of the populations of "useless eaters" and wanted to get rid of most of us as they admitted openly on the Georgia Guidestones - http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm - where it states in the first of 10 points: "Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature."
Websites such as this one have plenty of information on the global cull that the elite are believed to be bringing about - http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_depopu.htm - and chemtrails are one of their methods. Besides the dangers of the barium and aluminium other pathogens and fungal spores, moulds and viruses are said to be in the trails, as well as artificial fibres and even nanotechnology. The plan being to kill people slowly and to weaken their immune systems by the accumulative strain on them from all these toxic attacks.
Clifford Carnicom - http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm - is as well-known in chemtrail conspiracy circles as William Thomas and he has said much about the deliberate use of bacteria and viruses as biowarfare against the masses using chemtrails to disperse the agents of death - http://www.rense.com/general39/finally.htm
Weather modification as warfare is also something that is believed to be a reality. Scott Stevens on the website http://weatherwars.info/ says: "Weather is the new terrorism. Remember, the best weapon is a secret weapon. Let weather control be a secret no more. Look up and see what is going on just over your heads. Please for your own well being inform yourself."
Weather as a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025 details how the military can use the weather for warfare - http://www.geocities.com/Area51/shadowlands/6583/project335.html
As well as these ideas, there is the belief that HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), which is based on research and the work of Nikola Tesla is being used in conjunction with chemtrail programmes for various purposes including mind weather modification, warfare and mass mind control.
Speaking of mind control it is said that psychiatric tranquillisers and antidepressant drugs such as Valium and Prozac have been converted into aerosol form and are added to some chemtrails to keep the masses easier to control.
It is being circulated among conspiracy theorists that Donald Rumsfeld once admitted that Prozac and Valium combined with other compounds would be sprayed over the American people. http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=35964.0
The HAARP site is at http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/ and whilst it is claimed that it is all harmless research, conspiracy theorists and chemtrail believers do not accept this at all, and in fact there are many photos circulating and chemtrail videos, which show what are said to be cloud formations that have been created by HAARP. Some people have described this as "boiling the atmosphere."
Dr Nick Begich, the co-author with Jeane Manning of Angels Don't Play This HAARP - Advances in Tesla Technology, is a leading writer and speaker on the subject - http://www.earthpulse.com/src/category.asp?catid=13
Anyway, I knew about all that and also that it is believed by chemtrail believers that there is a blanket ban enforced on the mainstream media by its Illuminati masters, which prevents any news stories getting out about chemtrails and even preventing the use of the word. Being a writer for Tenerife News, I decided to see if I could do my part in getting an article published.
I succeeded in getting Contrails or chemtrails and freak weather included in the newspaper and Jeff Rense, David Icke and others soon picked up the story. I pointed out that whilst most people think that freak weather is being caused by climate change there is the possibility that it is being created as deliberate weather modification using chemtrails.
I quoted Dr Stephen McKay, who has become well respected amongst the chemtrail-believer community for speaking out as a scientist against the threat. Dr McKay was a member of the Yahoo group forum for chemtrail tracking usa - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/
I had also quoted Rosalind Peterson in my article. Rosalind runs http://www.californiaskywatch.com/ Her website asks "How do you like your skies ... Natural or man-made?"
And states: "We believe that no one, no government agency or private corporation, has the right to pollute our air or drinking water supplies, modify our weather, or impact the living environment around us - including the upper atmosphere."
Rosalind suggests that the use of the term "persistent contrail" is far preferable to chemtrail because the media and officials have been informed that chemtrails are a hoax and not to use the word. This means that if chemtrail-believers and activists want to get anywhere with their complaints and letters and calls to official authorities that they are more likely to get a response if they refrain from using the chemtrail word and use her description.
As a user of Myspace I was regularly blogging about the latest news on chemtrails and posting videos of chemtrails there. I had fully bought into the belief that the matter of chemtrails was such a danger to the world and was controlled by the evil elite who run everything that even the word was not being allowed in the media or for official sources to use.
One of my friends, Andre, who runs Outlaw News - http://www.outlawjournalism.com/news/ - had said, and I agreed with him, that chemtrails were the most important issue of all and the most serious danger to life on Earth. This view is actually held by many chemtrail-believers who are sure that the elite are really trying to kill as many of us off as possible.
One topic that often crops up though, is how are the elite ensuring that they remain safe when they have to breathe the same poisoned air and eat foods from the same poisoned environment?
There are many sub-topics that get discussed under the main subject of chemtrails. Another is the new disease of Morgellons in which sufferers feel crawling sensations under their skin, which produces coloured fibres that emerge from it and cause intense suffering.
Wikipedia has this entry on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgellons
Due to the great danger considered to be the case from chemtrails many people are asking what can be done to combat the effects of the trails and to get rid of them. One of the main answers, which is now being marketed by various small companies is to use orgone energy, as proposed by the late Wilhelm Reich. Orgonise Africa is one supplier of orgonite devices and jewelry - http://www.orgoniseafrica.com/
Reich had invented what he called a "cloudbuster" but this has been adapted into what is now known as a "chembuster" and these can be bought for quite a lot of money or made up utilising epoxy resin, metal shavings, semiprecious stones, copper rods and a base to hold it all in. The idea is that pointed at the sky the chembuster will cause chemtrails to vanish.
Orgonite pendants are on sale as well, and these are believed to offer some protection from the poisons in the chemtrails. Freeman of the Freeman Perspective - http://thefreemanperspective.blogspot.com/ - has spoken about orgonite on one of his shows and said that he believes he has suffered illness due to chemtrails. Having a lot of respect for Freeman's views and the amount of work he has done I got myself an orgonite pendant.
Meanwhile in Tenerife I had seen sun halos on days that there were chemtrails in the sky. The halos were clearly being caused by the whitish haze that is made as the trails spread out and form artificial cloud cover. I had read that such halos were very rare and, indeed, I had never seen any in my entire life apart from in pictures.
I found Michael Irving's website - http://www.worldgathering.net/stop/information.html - that links chemtrails with prophesies by the Hopi and the Plains Indians, and as a sign of the ending of this system and the "Day of the Purification." Michael says on his site: "Crazy Horse (Tashunca-Uitco) saw a great darkness fall upon the people, followed by visions of great machines moving across the land and flying in the air to produce what some North American Plains Indians refer to as the Death Winds. Is it possible that the Death Winds and the Chemtrails are one and the same?"
With this sort of information in my thoughts I was really depressed when I went back home to Wales for a week in July 2007 to find that the skies of Cardiff were covered in chemtrails on a daily basis and that no one appeared to notice or care. People I spoke to including my father and personal friends seemed to think they were nothing more than "vapour trails."
I returned to Tenerife even more concerned about the danger of chemtrails, although I had a new mystery added to it all. I had been led to believe by fellow chemtrail-believers that the air was being poisoned and that the environment too was being filled with toxins, however, on my walks just outside Cardiff, but still under chemtrailed skies, I noted that vast amounts of lichens were growing on fences, tree trunks, rocks and walls, thriving in the very wet weather the UK had been experiencing. Something did not add up because I knew very well that lichens growing well are a sign of how pure the air is - the very reverse of what the chemtrail believers were telling me.
Back in Tenerife I carried on corresponding with fellow chemtrail-believers and posting blogs and wrote a hubpage article on the subject. Now I have a friend who lives on the island called Tony Duncan but who posts on the Internet as JazzRoc and one day I was surprised to find that he had found my chemtrail blogs at Myspace and disagreed so much with them that he was calling me a "fool" and "deluded." He said that he was "going to fight me on this." And he did!
JazzRoc, who is a scientist and does know what he is talking about, started posting his opinions in the comments area at all chemtrail videos he could find online and very soon got a name as a "debunker" and a "paid disinformation agent." He was also being called a "CIA employee," a "shill,"and accused of "working for the government."
I knew this was madness from people who knew nothing about him at all and in fact the last job I knew he had was a community gardener - a far cry from CIA employee! JazzRoc was adamant that chemtrails didn't exist and that what we were calling such were no more than persistent contrails and were made up of water vapour. He also explained that the phenomenon has been caused by a vast increase in air traffic and that contrails like this were nothing new but had been recorded and photographed at other times in the last century.
There was no room for agreeing to disagree with him and at one point because I considered him to be very rude I blocked him from my contacts at Myspace. We also got into a heated argument at hubpages and by e-mail.
Meanwhile JazzRoc had become so infamous as a "professional debunker" that he managed to get himself banned from YouTube and was later to repeat this at the David Icke forums.
However, in the course of our argument he asked me if I realised that halos (of sun and moon) were caused by ice crystals, and also pointed out that dust and solid particles, which chemtrail-believers say are in the trails cannot create halos or rainbow effects of any type at all. Chemtrail-believers even have a new term "chembow" for colours being seen in the new artificial clouds made from the trails.
That was all it took to break the spell I was under. I knew that halos around the moon were made of ice crystals so it was obvious they were what caused the sun halos too. I knew also that solid particles cannot create halos or rainbow effects. On this island we get dust clouds from the Sahara that are known as calimas and whilst they make the sky really foggy looking they never ever have halos around the sun or moon.
I could see that somehow my belief system and association of sun halos with what I was calling chemtrails was wrong and that my belief had blinded me to logical reasoning. I had to apologise to JazzRoc and thank him for teaching me something that all my research had failed to do. I now knew that there were no threats from chemtrails because what we are seeing are contrails as the authorities have maintained all along.
I now could see that all that white in the trails and the hazy skies and around the sun when there are halos was nothing more than fantastic amounts of ice crystals. This is why the lichens were doing well in Wales - because the air was as I had thought very pure and not contaminated at all with barium, aluminium and all the other toxins and pathogens said to fall from the trails.
I announced in public that I was no longer a chemtrail-believer and directed people to JazzRoc's blog here, which is entitled "Contrails Facts and Chemtrail Fictions": http://jazzroc.wordpress.com/ and also to the excellent Contrail Science site where a scientific explanation is given for all the points raised by chemtrail-believers: http://contrailscience.com/
What happened next was as bizarre as JazzRoc being accused of working for the CIA because some of my chemtrail-believer friends suggested I had "had a breakdown," "had been got at," had "had a gun pointed at my head," had been "drugged," and even that I had been "hypnotised."
It appears that believers in the conspiracy do not want to hear any opinion that does not fit within their belief system and do not want any good news, which says that their fears are unfounded. It also appears that all the leading writers on conspiracy theories are either as blinded to what I have found to be the truth as I was, or, which is much more worrying, are knowingly presenting information that is not true.
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Comments
Thanks, Pam! It represents my full story on the matter. What amazes me is that ALL the conspiracy writers and 'experts' are saying chemtrails are real! So on this matter I am now in disagreement with just about everyone who delves into these matters it appears. To my mind it ties up so many questions about how it is all being done to simply acknowledge that it isn't! That there are businesses selling stuff to combat chemtrails is really weird if they don't exist to begin with!
I've often wondered about these trails myself, but not enough to research them. You've done a great job here, and it's a shame that you can't make your fellow conspiracy theorists hear the new twist in the tail. The trouble is that once a belief system is hard-wired into a persons consciousness, it takes an awful lot of shifting!
Well, maybe they are right and I am wrong but at present I am convinced of what I now believe and it answers the questions - how much is all this costing and how can they afford it? It's costing nothing! How do the elite protect themselves and families from the poisons in the air? They don't because they don't have to! Where are all the planes hidden? They aren't because there are none! Why hasn't anyone been brave enough to come out with details of having worked on this? Because no one has!
Brilliant, and a brave thing to admit to changing your mind over a belief that was once so important to you Steve. We should all always be open to changing our minds and possibly being wrong, but so many people find this hard to do in practice. Well done :)
Thank you, Cindy!
Bard, I've just googled up this blog, and what a pleasant surprise it is.
Now you know now what I have myself experienced for a year and a half.
Just to update you, I am now BANNED from the Outlaw website - so I guess that makes me an Outlaw outlaw...
But don't worry about me - I'm "being rude" on Conspiracy Central right now.
I hope we can soon reconvene "Totem3" for some more music recordings now Alan is back - I'm sorry I haven't as yet been able to make it over to your place since you've moved.
I hope your writing is going well for you as well. Hasta la vista!
Hi Tony! That takes some doing getting banned from Outlaw News - what on Earth did you say there that finally caused that?
This whole chemtrail thing is really weird because it appears that ALL conspiracy writers and speakers are chemtrail believers and there are none speaking out saying they are not a threat or if there are I haven't run into them yet and I research this stuff daily!
I saw Alan yesterday and showed him the music shop in Icod. He and Anna are going to Flicks on Sunday. I am meeting an Ed Wood fan singer-songwriter friend of mine who is down south and wanted to meet up so I suggested Flicks.
I do appreciate your balanced view of this...interestingly enough I presently live in the old century Home once the childhood home of Ross Gunn...I was interested in the history of our home, so I did some research about him...he was an inventor scientist working on nuclear submarines...during the last war....when he got out of nuclear work, he was assigned to the government weather program....I thought that was interesting...and wondered about the connection which at the time seemed like two fields that did not seem related. what do you think?
Thanks for your interesting feedback! All I can think of is the fact that weather modification is proposed as a means of warfare as are nuclear weapons so there is potentially a link there. A research scientist who had proved his value in one area of military science could easily find work in another. It's a possibility.
Hi,
No doubt this is complicated, there are multiple aerosol programs being conducted, there are different spray mixtures. If you become an internet debunker because you're tired of paranoid flocks and then play devil's advocate, you've lost your way. There times when there are regular contrails in the sky from commercial traffic, there are times when you can see the "special" planes at work selectively releasing aerosol in the sky. It helps to be a dedicated skywatcher to suss it out. If you don't you may vaccilate in your beliefs, and take everyone along for the ride.
This is a militant attempt to dominate the full spectrum worldwide. To control the resources of precip, maybe terra-form, but it's ultimate warfare of many forms. Nearly every great idea has been coopted as a weapon. It is a war economy. The public has been lulled into a coma or diverted to other causes. The fact that fleets of planes can overtly dump their powdered cargo over population centers without the strongest of us finding out who, what and where and stopping it, is testimony of power and domination, not fiction.
I haven't lost my way at all, ksd! I have found that I no longer feel a need to spend hours on chemtrail sites or worrying when I go out on days I see the trails because I am now convinced that the majority of atmospheric phenomena and what people are seeing as chemtrails are nothing more than persistent contrails of ice crystals. Yes, there may well be a small amount of testing from time to time and yes, there are planes that spray pesticides but this is not what is causing the bulk of the fear and worry and the bulk of what is being captured on videos that do the rounds. So what I am saying is that most of what is being seen is harmless and fear and worry are not good for people.
I seem to remember that Jazzroc asked for any chemtrail believer to show him something as proof, something that would make him share their concern but no one ever managed to!
I don't think you have the whole story. I don't think anyone does. I would suggest that it is folly to think you are absolutely sure you know what has happened and what is happening. Years of governmental covert action harmful to this planet and species without our knowlegde or consent is more the norm than the exception. Conclusions are dangerous. Change your mind - but don't let down your guard and don't conclude.
No, I don't have the whole story and neither does anyone else but this hub represents my report on my experiences and conclusions so far! Seeing as I am not presented with any evidence to change it it looks likely to remain so.
"without our knowlegde or consent is more the norm than the exception." - I would agree it is "the norm" but it is with the consent of the people - the masses go along with whatever nonsense they are told and in doing so consent to the madness we live in!
Conclusions are not "dangerous" - we make them constantly! How else can one live?
"multiple aerosol programs being conducted"These happen to coincide with wet weather - strange that - especially when REAL researchers have noted that the fifty-fold increase in stratospheric civil aviation traffic in fifty years has caused the stratosphere to get WETTER, and trails persist in WET skies..."If you become an internet debunker because"You're fed-up of ignorant "chicken little" jerk-offs self-aggrandizing themselves, lying, cheating, and slandering others."There times when there are regular contrails in the sky from commercial traffic"Yeah. When the weather's DRY."you can see the "special" planes at work selectively releasing aerosol in the sky"Yeah. They're "white, unmarked" and you can't see DICK. The phenomenon is known as "blue light scattering", but seeing as that's a SCIENTIFIC term, you wouldn't know DICK about it."It helps to be a dedicated skywatcher to suss it out"Yeah! You've only got to lie on your back and dream! Might as well have a toss, eh? Beats getting educated, doing proper research, learning atmospheric science. Bash the Bishop instead!"take everyone along for the ride"That's what you are doing with the rest of the GADARENE SWINE. Shall I direct you to the sea?"militant attempt to dominate the full spectrum worldwide"Resources, logistics, logic, reason. I recommend you RESEARCH the meaning of these words. (Oh, by the way, PROPER RESEARCH is best conducted by using "-CHEMTRAILS" in "Advanced Search". That way you'll get to discover what REALLY INTELLIGENT people have discovered...)"To control the resources of precip"They've been SEEDING CLOUDS since the forties. SEEDING CLOUDS ISN'T CONTROLLING THE WEATHER, no matter what some idiot general has proposed in a paper."terra-form"If you knew any physics, you'd shut up about that. A one-megaton nuclear bomb buried deep in rock creates a 100-foot-wide spherical crater when it goes off. Not a lot of "terra-forming", is it?"ultimate warfare"Haven't you noticed you're going broke? How's General Motors right now? Perhaps it's a consequence of Afghanistan and Iraq, eh? Then HOW ULTIMATE is it gonna be, loudmouth?"Nearly every great idea has been coopted as a weapon"Yeah! Strange how Tesla's "Death Ray" never made it into WWII, or KOREA, or VIETNAM, or BOSNIA, or KUWAIT, or AFGHANISTAN, or IRAQ, or...."It is a war economy"Well, it's yours. You're a big gang of crooks, cheats, and liars. Do something about it."lulled into a coma"As a "chemtrailer", you're barely conscious. Your task is to STOP DOING HARM, before you get around to doing anything good."fleets of planes can overtly dump their powdered cargo"Air is tested EVERYWHERE, using "hoovers" pulling through fine filter papers, in their THOUSANDS. If you weren't such an absolute DREEB, and had ANY wits about you, you'd know this."testimony of power and domination"Testimony of your idleness and deceit."not fiction"Bollocks!
Hahahahaha /me thinks there will come a time that you will change your mind again. And really soon as well.
No, no, Nikolai. Bard and I are scientific, not religious. We study Science and Nature, not the childish chattering of howler monkeys trying to talk up a non-existent storm.
The planet is warming due to massive anthropogenic combustion. The global warming which will happen will be mitigated only by proper research and concern, and not your paranoid simian screechings.
You serve only to do harm: while you go on about chemtrails, people are going to be less able to discover the true causes of lung and skin diseases. The way you clutter the web up with your junk is already a cause for concern.
Study proper science, and learn to form your opinions AFTER you have learned ANYTHING AT ALL.
So Bard,
You changed your mind because of lichens and halos? It seems there is more information to support chemtrails than there is to debunk it.
Here's a quote from Wikipedia on lichens stating:
The algal or cyanobacterial cells are photosynthetic, and as in higher plants they reduce atmospheric carbon dioxide into organic carbon sugars to feed both symbionts. Both partners gain water and mineral nutrients mainly from the atmosphere, through rain and dust. The fungal partner protects the alga by retaining water, serving as a larger capture area for mineral nutrients and, in some cases, provides minerals obtained from the substrate. If a cyanobacterium is present, as a primary partner or another symbiont in addition to green alga as in certain tripartite lichens, they can fix atmospheric nitrogen, complementing the activities of the green alga.
and:
A major ecophysiological advantage of lichens is that they are poikilohydric (poikilo- variable, hydric- relating to water), meaning that though they have little control over the status of their hydration, they can tolerate irregular and extended periods of severe desiccation. Like some mosses, liverworts, ferns, and a few "resurrection plants", upon desiccation, lichens enter a metabolic suspension or stasis (known as cryptobiosis) in which the cells of the lichen symbionts are dehydrated to a degree that halts most biochemical activity. In this cryptobiotic state, lichens can survive wider extremes of temperature, radiation and drought in the harsh environments they often inhabit.
Now I'd like to ask a few questions that no one seems to ask.
The altitude for contrails forming is 27,000 feet and above, right? So the trails we see in the sky are 5 miles or more high? They look closer. When a jet leaves a trail over 5 miles above your head, you can see the jet in detail with the naked eye, try looking at something like a building five miles away, can you see as much detail in the building as you can in the jet?
Why are the trails only seen in the day? After the man made clouds have dissipated, the night skies are clear, there may be less jets flying but they are still flying up there, right? Why don't they make trails at night? It's even colder then, we should still see them.
We have to ask the right questions to get the right answers.
What do you guys think?
Not sure what point you are making regarding lichens but I will agree they do withstand drought, temperature extremes and radiation, but they don't like polluted air!
The trails are there by night but you can't see them having no sunlight to illuminate them. And I don't agree the night skies are clear.
As for your question about jets and buildings and what is visible at various distances I cannot answer but I am sure JazzRoc or the contrailscience site can and probably has done.
Sorry for the late reply, I was on vacation.
Hi Bard,
Please don't misunderstand my questions, I'm just trying to learn more from both sides.
To help clarify my point about lichens, they are hardy plants that can survive in drought or downpour and other extremes. Are you sure they wouldn't survive in Wales because of the polutants? Isn't it rainy or humid there? Wouldn't the amount of rain or other nutrients cause them to survive anyway? What about other plant life, wouldn't they be affected too? The reason I ask these questions is that you spend most of your article talking about your learning curve about chemtrails with links but only the last few paragraphs, with only two reasons, halos and lichens, debunking them. It just seems that you were convinced otherwise so quickly.
I will check more into the distance thing, but again today, when a jet flew directly overhead, I can see some detail, not logos or numbers mind you, but it just doesn't seem to be five miles away and since contrails can only form above this distance, it's a question people should be asking.
I disagree with you about the trails not being visible at night. During the day they can block the sun, which is a lot brighter than the stars, and at twilight, they are still visible but are decreasing. The starry night sky is clear enough, with the exception of the marine layer or fog, and if there were trails, they WOULD be visible.
I look forward to your comments.
As I said re lichens it is simple - they do not thrive in polluted air so that shows the air was not in that way underneath trails in Wales. You can often see no lichens in towns and cities and move outside and you find them in the countryside where there is less air pollution. I have even seen none by the road through a forest and plenty some way away inside the wood and I concluded this was because of their sensitivity to pollution from car exhaust.
Re skies at night I meant that often there are cloudy nights and hazy nights and you cannot see stars or moon so would not expect to see any trails and as far as I know they need sunlight to be seen.
Hotrodguy: "Why don't they make trails at night? It's even colder then, we should still see them."
Simple. The trails are made above five miles up in the stratosphere. Day or night, the stratosphere is colder than -40. Daylight makes hardly any difference because there is only a fifth the density of the air and water that you find at sea level. It's damn cold day or night!
Trails are made at night just as they are during the day. There are much fewer flights at night because nobody likes arriving at airports at 4am. So you are less likely to see trails at night.
The "weather" of the stratosphere has little to do with the weather you experience down here in the troposphere. There is NO WEATHER up there; there is only layer flow, such as "jet streams".
The dividing region between these two "spheres" is where the atmosphere is at its COLDEST. It's called the tropopause, and its altitude is 45,000 feet at the equator down to 18,000 feet over the poles.
It's reasonable to learn about the physics of your atmosphere. It will teach you not to draw false analogies by applying "commonsense" to counter-intuitive "truth".
Thanks for your scientific explanation, JazzRoc!
Hi Bard,
I have made some comments that you may find quite interesting over at Contrail Science. For one, there IS aluminum oxide in JP-8 surfactants and alumina precursors (which may form into aluminum under heating such as inside a jet engine) in a product sold for jetfuels by a company called International Fuel Technology Inc. which is an offshoot of Alcoa (the U.S. largest Aluminum producer)
To how much of the alumina is combusted fully inside the engine is unclear to me but I am extremely skeptical that it is entirely combusted.
As for all of the conspiracy theories, this may be more a matter of greed. Surfactants improve fuel characteristics. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Regards,
Bryan
Thanks for your comments and I hope JazzRoc replies seeing as he understands the workings of plane engines and chemistry far better than I. My immediate thoughts are that aluminum being a metallic element has no place in jet fuel in engines and would cause serious problems.
I have been thinking about this for a while. I do enjoy people who plays devil's advocate because, a) it is more important for me to be well informed than to be right, b) it will possibly strengthen my position or weaken it. In this case I would like to be wrong. When it comes to conspiracy theories, there are ones that have a lot of evidence to support them and ones that do not. 911 being an inside job, there is overwhelming evidence of that, chemtrails, not so much, or the evidence is difficult to grasp and/or accumulate since I cannot exactly reach high enough to capture a trail in a test tube.
Here are my thoughts or questions, even after reading JazzRoc's 20 things I don't know, fortunately I know a couple and would love to have a good understanding of all of it. *** Even with air travel up 500 percent; commercial planes do not have that effect and have no visible chemtrails. ***In the same day and at the same time I can see one plane with a chemtrail lasting for hours and another with a chemtrail visible for only seconds or only for the following fiftyish feet. Now, I do not have to study jet fuel to conclude that airplanes use different kinds of fuel and there are different types of engines; what I am saying is that the weather and altitude are not the only factors that produce trail variations, obviously. ***And I have seen commercial planes with no trails flying far higher than a plane with chemtrails. *** To help measure the credibility and accuracy of my observations, I will give the following info: I live 20 miles and less from three major airports; LAX, JFK and an airforce base near the border of the city of Cypress and Fountain Valley. I live in Fullerton CA. You don't need to live near here to view a map and see that I am between 2 metropolitan airports, an Air force Base(or some military compound where there are a shitload of jets and helicopters that land all day) and within a mile of a municipal airport. ***What strikes me about the planes with chemtrails is that they seem to be several directly parallel with major freeways.When they are parallel with major freeways, they go over and over them at various times in the day. When they cross it is often parallel to another crossing interstate/freeway. What would outline exactly the crossing of the 5 and 91 freeways. These do not extend in flight pattern that would lead long enough to be flying somewhere else(like another city) nor in the direction of a major airport within 20 miles. ***When they are not directly above my city it is hard to estimate where they are visually of course; my eyes are not a ruler. One day, I was having a hard time estimating the ones that were not over my city, deciding if they were 5 or ten miles away and not being able to figure out what freeway they may be tracing over. Coincidentally, I went to Los Angeles later that day and found they were slightly more than 20 miles away. Once I was more near them, they did paralel with major freeways in Los Angeles. With the distance being a little easier to gauge, I can now tell that some are over Pomona and San Bernadino freeways, to the best of my deductions. ***The other thing that stands out is that on days when it happens, it appears to be the same silver, military looking plane back and forth, over and over, this way and that, tic tac toe. Clearly, I can follow it from where one trail stops and 30 seconds or less,very close to the same point, it starts and returns to an opposite direction or different angle. ***There is nothing in the 20 Things That You Don't Know Article that proves it is not cloud seeding. ***Ice crystals are still water, steam is water, water is a greenhouse gas and it could make the globe warm. It could cloud up the sky and prevent the sun's rays from making the Earth warn, I see no reason why , even if the supposed chemicals were safe, it could not be use for weather control, regardless how effective. I also can conclude that it is possibly used for satellite mapping. *** It is safe to say that I am not looking for this to be a testament of evil doers and conspirators against a population, rather I would hope it has a very logical reasoning for happening. If it was satellite mapping, then ok. If it was weather modification, then maybe controversial, but with climate catastrophes looming in the future, any prevention and help is well recognized.*** However, with the planes making patterns in small regions and only over one city on a given day and not all general cities, and not all planes, it is not logical to conclude that temperature, altitude and flight frequency are the only factors that make chemtrails. Though I will admit, it plays some part, I often see the chemtrail streams above cumulus clouds. Commercial passenger planes fly above cumulus clouds without making the trails too. The underlying question is; why exactly would there be only one plane, making multiple trails at the same time, day and altitude as other planes that are not? And,why are they making specific noticeable patterns on certain days and only over a small region?
Thank you for a very detailed response which I hope JazzRoc can answer as he is better equipped to explain than I!
Hiya Bryan, still on the "trail" I see...
"there IS aluminum in JP-8 surfactants in a product sold for jetfuels" - Surfactants are detergents sometimes used to reduce "gumming" when jet engines are used in non-typical situations. The amount added is very small: similar additives are purchaseable in car accessory shops for automotive engines.
"how much of the alumina is combusted fully inside the engine is unclear to me but I am extremely skeptical that it is entirely combusted" - Do you think that alumina "goes away" when it passes through the engine? It does NOT. It does not combust either, because it is an OXIDE and ALREADY COMBUSTED. It will fly out of the rear as the finest and most dilute of dusts.
"this may be more a matter of greed" - No, it is simply good sense to add a product in small quantities to prevent an engine from failing in some ambient conditions. In a single-engined aircraft a failed motor could take lives and cost millions.
"Surfactants improve fuel characteristics" - but you didn't know what characteristics, did you?
"Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle." - No, the truth is you don't understand enough of the world you live in.
There are 166 compounds in JP-8. They are mostly an accidental mixture of the very similar isomers of heptane to decane that one gets when one fractionates petroleum in a still. Many of these compounds are dangerous and carcinogenic. Don't drink or breathe JP-8.
http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=%22constitue
Also don't start myths and rumors about things you still don't understand, or I will recommend oppositely...
MD FREE:
"Even with air travel up 500 percent" - Wrong. 5000 percent. That's TEN TIMES as much as you thought.
"commercial planes do not have that effect and have no visible chemtrails!" - Wrong. They do. The higher their efficiency, the greater their capability for making trails. Commercial aircraft are efficient. That's the way the airline makes a profit.
"In the same day and at the same time I can see one plane with a chemtrail lasting for hours and another with a chemtrail visible for only seconds or only for the following fiftyish feet" - You mean contrail. The stratosphere is layered with layers of differing humidities and consequently different trails will occur.
"airplanes use different kinds of fuel" - Yes they do, but CIVIL multi-engine aircraft DO use the same fuel.
"weather and altitude are not the only factors" - No, they aren't: older and less efficient engines make less of a trail.
"I have seen commercial planes with no trails flying far higher than a plane with chemtrails." - So what? You obviously don't know that the stratosphere gets WARMER with increasing altitude.
"the planes with chemtrails" - CONTRAILS - "is that they seem to be parallel with major freeways." - You are saying that interstate freeways match interstate flight routes. That's no surprise. It would be surprising if they didn't.
"These do not extend in flight pattern that would lead long enough to be flying somewhere else" - You don't seem to realise that your city is humidifying the air above it. Trails appear in humid conditions, because they are the ICE of engine combustion, FORMED IN -40 DEGREE TEMPERATURES.
"it appears to be the same silver, military looking plane back and forth, over and over, this way and that, tic tac toe." - There is a separate aircraft for each trail. There are 5000 aircraft in the air at any time, many of them flying on crossing shuttle routes 5-7 miles up. No activity as you so inaccurately describe has ever been captured by the thousands of cheap videocameras looking at the sky at any time.
"There is nothing in the 20 Things That You Don't Know Article that proves it is not cloud seeding" - except that cloud-seeding is a normal and licensed activity carried out by light planes, low down, burning silver iodide flares.
"Ice crystals are still water, steam is water, water is a greenhouse gas and it could make the globe warm." - The net result is around zero. Trails warm at night and cool in the daytime.
"even if the supposed chemicals were safe" - the supposed chemicals are NOT PRESENT. See my previous post.
"it is possibly used for satellite mapping" - SATELLITES are used for for "satellite mapping"!
"If it was satellite mapping, if it was weather modification" - Neither eventuality exists at all. Anywhere.
"the planes making patterns in small regions and only over one city on a given day and not all general cities, and not all planes, it is not logical to conclude that temperature, altitude and flight frequency" - But it is. Your city is liberating thousands of tons of water into the skies every day. You just don't appreciate the physical facts around you. Look at your city's water consumption volume and compare it with its sewage outflow volume: the difference is your city's EVAPORATION.
"that make chemtrails" - There you go again. Contrails.
"I often see the chemtrail streams above cumulus clouds" - And you KNOW these to be "chemtrail streams" because...?
"Commercial passenger planes fly above cumulus clouds without making the trails too." - When they do, the air they are flying through is too dry to allow the trail to remain: the trail ice SUBLIMES into water vapor, increasing the humidity along its path.
"The underlying question is; why exactly would there be only one plane, making multiple trails at the same time, day and altitude as other planes that are not? And, why are they making specific noticeable patterns on certain days and only over a small region? - I have answered your questions above.
The underlying reason for your questions is that you have no knowledge of the way the atmosphere works. Go to a science library and study a simple book the atmosphere. When you've mastered that go on to a progressively-harder and more complex book on the physics of the atmosphere. Then go on to study the hundreds of papers that have been created since the fifties on the constituents of aircraft exhaust and its effect on the atmosphere.
Whatever you do, DON'T enter "chemtrails" into a search engine: you will be bombarded with THOUSANDS of LIES and MISINTERPRETATIONS made by the completely uninformed. Instead, use "advanced search" and enter "-chemtrails" into the "exclude" box. Free your mind...
Thank you again, JazzRoc, for explaining the situation!
For the sake of leaving the term chemtrails undefined, I reffered to everything as chemtrails, even if I knew they were contrails because contrails have chemicals, even if the chemical is only water. Sorry if that bothered you. There are still two things that I would think are holes and I will have to continue my observations to be certain.1) is that my metropolitin area is in the middle of other metropolitan areas(I meant the JOhn Wayne airport, not JFK) therefore the trails should reach way past what appears to be my city. I do not live in a city that would be any more humid than Los Angeles, San Diego, Oceansice(big military base there too) Pomona or Riverside. The other things is that I am almost sure it is the same plane. Perhaps I will also have to use some memory on my cheap video camera and record it as well as take pictures of a formatiom.
Yes, I suppose it does make sense that they follow the freeway, most hellicopters do. The thing is it is not continuous, it often does just make an x and not a steady stream.
Yes satellites make satelite maps, I could deal with that, that works. One week after some wildfires, I kept seeing specifically a circle with an x in it, same place, same marking, at least four days in a row. Is there no reason a specific marking may be some intellegence?
- except that cloud-seeding is a normal and licensed activity carried out by light planes, low down, burning silver iodide flares. Thanks for this, but doesn't this one leave trails? What would one look like?
Thanks for posting again, MD, and I trust JazzRoc will answer you. I would just like to add that I think a main point he is making, is that chemtrails as they are believed in and described, do not exist and so people are searching for and worrying about something that is a fiction! Also that if people spent some time reading up on the subjects he has outlined they would be likely to reach the same conclusions and would no longer have to worry about being harmed by a sinister plot that has been invented!
I sure do hope this is the case. I will make the time to understand the physics and make more observations. My gut feeling is that something is a little off, and I don't think it is me, but I am open minded!
Someone please explain why 2 planes at similar altitude leave different trails(1) trail that dissapates and the other spreads into cloud cover. Yes almost same altitude as far as I can see. Anyone?? Contrail-vs-Chemtrail
I think you will find they are actually at different altitudes. It is easy to be deceived looking up at something from ground level because you cannot see where one layer begins and ends. This subject has been covered in great depth by JazzRoc and on Contrailscience - how it is that planes appear on the same level with one leaving a long-lasting trail and another not doing so.
Thanks for posting!
Bard, either you got duped by a disinformant, or you are one yourself.
Neither case is the truth!
I note several conclusions now that I am a non-believer:
1. That chemtrailers make accusations against other people who do not share their belief, whilst in reality knowing little or nothing about the truth of the people they accuse.
2. That many chemtrailers post comments more or less anonymously and with no means of finding out anything more about them than some name they use. Why is this?
3. That chemtrailers never provide any evidence for their claims apart from trotting out a load of material that is doing the rounds in chemtrail-believer circles such as the hundreds of videos on Youtube.
4. That it appears that it is chemtrailers who are suffering from the vast amount of illnesses that they claim are caused by the trails but that countless millions of non-believers are unaffected by them and can go on going about their lives without the worry of being harmed by chemtrails.
5. That the elite, who take the blame for all this, are not worried about themselves or their families' health having to breathe the same poisoned air because there is nothing to worry about.
6. That if you speak out as I have done with my reasons for no longer believing you get lots of things said about you which are untrue eg. that I have been got at, am a disinfo agent myself, that I have been drugged/hypnotised or have had a gun pointed at my head!
7. That people are not dropping dead everywhere after being exposed to years of "spraying" because there was nothing they were exposed to that would harm them.
8. That, as with religions and cults, the believers can only see and repeat what they have come to believe in, and are unable to see outside that box or consider information that challenges their belief.
9. That chemtrailers appear to enjoy bad news and living in fear and sharing this negative material.
10. That seeing as the "gurus" of the truth movement and conspiracy research are all very intelligent and aware people it is obvious that some of them must know that chemtrails do not exist apart from being a term used or a possibility, and yet they are willing to go on telling their fans about the threat of these trails.
11. That if someone such as JazzRoc asks for some evidence of chemtrails they will not be given any they have not already seen and dismissed.
I've seen many where I live and always found them awkward. They, first of all, don't look like real clouds because they're too assymetrical and numerous. On the other hand, there's a lot of planes in my city.
Fascinating hub! I'd never even heard of chemtrails, it's a whole passionate argument I've been completely unaware of.
Well, yes, Writer Rider, they are not real clouds, not as they used to be, but then we never had so many planes causing the phenomenon and there is a lot more water up there to form the ice crystals that form the cloud cover. The point I would make is yes, it doesn't look right, and yes, it messes up the skies but no, it doesn't contain barium, aluminum, poisons and pathogens etc.
Thanks for posting, LondonGirl! You will see there are two sides on this and I am in the unusual position of having been on both. I can only suggest you examine the evidence for and against and make your own decision as to what you believe.
Bard,
you are doing a great job here. I see no reason to add further comment really.
Except for: "but doesn't cloud-seeding leave trails? What would one look like?"
The answer is yes, they do, but the smoke emitted is not dense or in great amounts, as one molecule of silver iodide will generate a raindrop, and there are many trillions of molecules in the small amount required to make a faint smoke stream.
The aircraft will be a small one, flying around in and out of the base of a cumulus cloud. The intention of its pilot is to cause the smoke to be drawn into the central updraft of the cloud where it can rise up the middle, nucleating as it goes. This doesn't make for visibility...
I think you can try entering "cloud-seeding" in YouTube and watch videos of this activity - from inside the plane.
Thank you, JazzRoc!
Here in the USA we have chemtrails lingering at night too. In California they are sprayed all day long in big X patterns. We are sprayed upon 7 days a week. rain or shine. I live in the Mojave Dessert and we do not see rain very often here. We see contrails going on at the same time as chemtrails. One trail disappears, while others remain. Makes me wonder why both would have different effects if it were just moisture. Our skies are just full of them.
They are all contrails and the ones that last are at different levels to the others. This has been explained before.
Hi again! I really like this objective forum having believers and non-believers.
My camera needs a new memory card. I haven't seen a trail in two weeks until just before the storm came. I will take a picture and illustrate why there is a hole in Jazz Roc's argument. There is just one thing that doesn't quite follow the IF statement in logical reasoning.
I do not necessarily think chemtrails are designed to kill off populations; my son is very sensitive and gets bronchitis sometimes, but it Does NOT correlate to times when there are trails.
Others have noticed what I said about 2 different looking trails at the same time. Yes, I would definitely agree that your eyes are not sufficient tools to measure miles! It is hard to estimate by looking the distance of something in the air. The argument about the altitudes is very good. Wish we could measure the distance somehow.
There is one more issue I have, and rather than try to explain it verbally, I will be sure to take a photo or two and post it or link it. I do hope it can be debunked, but if it can't, then we still have no comforting and proven answer for what they are. Talk to you soon.
Yes, you are very welcome to post your photos or links, although please bear in mind that JazzRoc has seen hundreds and not one has given him any cause for concern.
Hmmm - very interesting blog... I too have corresponded with mr JazzRoc and he has presented some interesting data. Sure there are Ice Halos formed around the sun etc.
Les Cowley's site had the low-down:
Sadly, Les isn't aware of everything that's going on in the Sky, even though he has a beautiul collection of stuff.
The problem is that the data that JazzRoc presents is incomplete. Bring up the subject of grids of chemtrails and he has no real explanation for them. I submitted FOIs to ask what flights were causing the grids over my house, which I had photographed with date/time stamp. No one could tell me.
Broken trails? No problem for Jazzroc...
42 aircraft leaving trails over the centre of Derby in 2.5 hours? No problem for Jazzroc.
On Friday last week, I saw no trails in a beatiful blue clear sky - until about 4pm - when we got plastered again. No obvious change in weather conditions. Simply basic things like this prove we are not being told the truth - but JazzRoc and hundreds of others like him ignore all this and cling to the notion that there is no overall group controlling events on planet earth. He probably thinks Jetfuel and potential energy can turn steel to dust - lots of people do. But steel rarely turns to dust - even with the use of explosives. In fact, it only turns to dust when you drill it or file it.
Are Chemtrails harmful to health? I am not sure - I have suffered no health effects myself, none that I know of anyway. And for others to PROVE the negative health effects are attributable to chemtrails is hard.
Height of trails? No problem - all explainable according to JazzRoc. But almost all papers about persistent contrails have been published since 1996 - why the sudden onset of them?
http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atla
So let's keep sticking to the evidence and not selectively ignoring it. JazzRoc also thought that it was "an oversight" that the Cat3-5 Hurricane Erin on Sept 11 2001 was not more widely reported - even though it was a threat to the east coast.
Can anyone say "weather control"?
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/erin/
I rest my case.
Andrew, thank you for posting and the links!
With regard to the "grids" I was under the impression that JazzRoc has explained this several times by saying that they appear as grids from the viewpoint below but are actually separated by a lot of space and because of the number of planes flying you are simply getting a lot more persistent contrails and because they "persist" from a viewpoint below they are bound to appear as grids at times. Or that is how I understand it.
Personally I DO believe in the world being controlled by a group of people known as the Illuminati. But I don't believe they are creating chemtrails though. I believe that aircraft are creating persistent contrails and they are getting called chemtrails. Whatever they are, I am also claiming they do not harm me.
I will let JazzRoc know about your commenst and hopefully he will reply to your points.
"I too have corresponded with mr JazzRoc"
Yes. And closed down your website debate as a consequence.
"http://www.atoptics.co.uk/ isn't aware of everything that's going on in the Sky"
A mistake on your part. The website shows every optical feature you find in our sky - without exception.
"the data that JazzRoc presents is incomplete"
Another mistake on your part - except for the fact it is ongoing, and new 'facts' (inaccurate claims) turn up on a daily basis. It is also incomplete in the sense that I don't cover the full physics of the atmosphere by any means, but just enough to rebut 'chemtrail' claims.
"Bring up the subject of grids of chemtrails and he has no real explanation for them'
Another mistake - they are fully rebutted. The atmosphere is quite variable, even up in the stratosphere (which you never mention), and certainly sufficiently variable to alter contrail emission.
"I submitted FOIs to ask what flights were causing the grids over my house"
Yes. Even after I told you I was a retired engineer living in the Canary Islands.
"No one could tell me"
More like "would"! If, after seeing an overlay of flight routes you cannot see 'grids', then what else is it that you cannot see?
"Broken trails? No problem for Jazzroc..."
Answered above.
"42 aircraft leaving trails over the centre of Derby in 2.5 hours? No problem for Jazzroc."
Seven thousand aircraft overfly the UK each day. I have told you this.
"No obvious change in weather conditions."
The stratosphere over your head is in motion, holds water vapor to a varying degree invisibly, allowing variable trail generation. I have told you this too - and provided the research facts and figures backing this up.
"Simply basic things like this prove we are not being told the truth"
Basic things like these prove that you take no notice of the truth.
"cling to the notion that there is no overall group controlling events on planet earth"
If there were, then ICBMs would be a waste of time, wouldn't they?
"thinks that potential energy can turn steel to dust"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZjhxuhTmGk
The towers reached the speed of this Phantom F4 fighter by the time they reached the ground. You'll notice it turns to dust. Presumably, when you watch this, you WON'T see it happen...
"In fact, it only turns to dust when you drill it or file it"
You are talking to an engineer who HAS drilled, filed, welded, dissolved, and vaporized it.
"Are Chemtrails harmful to health?"
Is writing about non-existent ‘chemtrails’ harmful to society?
"for others to PROVE the negative health effects are attributable to chemtrails is hard"
Well – THAT is true.
"Height of trails? No problem - all explainable according to JazzRoc."
Perfectly normal passenger planes generate, on occasion, dense and persistent contrails. A ‘jumbo’ can do this at the rate of 250 tons per mile. The ice is precipitated out of the humid stratosphere through which it is flying. It happens above the tropopause - above 26,000 feet - which is where almost all passenger aircraft ply their trade.
"But almost all papers about persistent contrails have been published since 1996 - why the sudden onset of them?"
They are appearing as concern about global warming is increasing and air travel is also increasing. Air travel has increased 5000% since the fifties. As have instances of persistent contrails.
"So let's keep sticking to the evidence and not selectively ignoring it."
Would that you could!
"JazzRoc also thought that it was "an oversight" that the Cat3-5 Hurricane Erin on Sept 11 2001 was not more widely reported - even though it was a threat to the east coast."
Perhaps when New York disappeared in a cloud of concrete dust, and a large passenger twin smacked into the Pentagon, their thoughts were elsewhere? (titter!)
"Can anyone say 'weather control'?"
I wish they would. Mankind's unimpeded combustion of 300 million years of fossil fuel inside 150 years is beginning to ‘control’ our weather…
Thank you for a detailed reply, JazzRoc! If Andrew closed down an ongoing debate it sounds like the same tactic as used by William Thomas after you finally got a response from him! Chemtrail-believers and their gurus don't want their belief system challenged it seems!
Bard, you are sounding so biased to your friends trying to uncover truth. I see I have been drawn to write here by no accident today since the force has been discussing in the last 24 hours.
I have been making many observations. Rather then detail and plaster photos here, when I have time I will post a hub since I haven't written anything in a while. Furthermore, I think I should program a small data base where people can document their observations day by day.
What I will say that I noticed:
On a day when there were MANY trails in the sky, I was near LAX(10 to 15 miles I'll mapquest later) and none of the passenger aircraft were at an altitude to reach the chemtrails above. Nor are the trails showing a relationship with Orange County's John Wayne airport, aprox. 40 miles difference ( I will mapquest later too.)
Aircraft travel up 5000 percent is mythical. After September 11, 2001, travel in the US declined by more than half. Also, airplanes do not just vary flight patterns so significantly from day to day that one day you see one hundred trails and for two-three weeks you have beautiful clear skies. There is never a correlating day out of the week that is specific to increase or no trails.
A large piece of evidence that makes it very CLEAR that what ever the trails are, they are definitely only from military aircraft! That evidence was the pictures I took of President Barack Obama's entrance to a public town hall meeting to Orange County Fairgrounds and his private town hall meeting the following day to Pomona. The day he was in Orange County, from the distance of my school and home, it appeared that approx 20 miles away, there were trails circling and accumulating circular patterns around a given point. I brought this to the attention of my class and they concurred that it was definitely military jets over the OC Fairgrounds. The next day they were 20 miles the other direction, Pomona. No other trails that could have come from LAX or John Wayne were made that day. It is obvious that the world of travel on Monday and Tuesday does not just stop because there are government visitors. I KNOW that the evidence points only to nearly every trail being made by government aircraft. The purpose of their travel is the only part here that is actually trivial.
Bard, you said, "Personally I DO believe in the world being controlled by a group of people known as the Illuminati. But I don't believe they are creating chemtrails though. I believe that aircraft are creating persistent contrails and they are getting called chemtrails. Whatever they are, I am also claiming they do not harm me."
Whether you believe it or know it for certain are entirely 2 different things. We know the term illuminated came from artworks of the middle ages that were embelished by specific symbols around them that had different meanings. We know some of the meanings of these symbols and the evil deeds and rituals they were used for. We know they exist because, even George Bush totes his mason status and says we cannot tell you the secrets of our cult, but if your educated, you can figure them out. We also know that most of the owners of banks, federal reserve, government officials are part of this group and they admit they have a secret cult. We also know these same people control military aircraft actions. What we don't know is why the aircraft are making some specific patterns in the sky only on certain days. It doesn't matter if you believe in them or not.
This is why I will eventually make a database that we can collect data, including weather conditions, day, place, time, and I am open to other suggestions from anyone who KNOWS what data would be valuable and necessary to record. It seems like a good public service.
MD, if I am sounding biased it is because I have been subjected to nonsensical claims by chemtrail belivers as has JazzRoc and I have also watched recently how William Thomas eventually replied to JazzRoc but then locked the blog so that no further correspondence could be entered. Seems William didn't want to discuss the matter - I wonder why that would be? Could it be that he doesn't want to admit he was wrong? He wouldn't sell many books then would he?
I don't think I am biased though because I have investigated the matter from both sides and also I am keeping this and my other hub open to all comments as a record of what is said.
As to what I believe being important or not, I would say this is central to the whole debate because the matter of chemmtrails comes down to a belief system - either you believe or you don't and I did once but don't now!
I have seen non-military aircraft leaving trails. I saw some of this when I flew into Dublin airport when I was a believer and noting that the planes were Aerlingus and had a shamrock logo I immediately linked that to Operation Cloverleaf!This is an example of how the mind works with such information.
I also see in winter only regular planes every Sunday morning that leave persistent trails like the ones in the photos here. I can only assume seeing as this has been the second winter in a row and that they go in the same direction on the same day that they are a commercial airliners.
Regarding military aircraft yes, I know a lot of them fly over South Wales. I have a friend who has told me he has seen lots of these planes and wondered why so many.
As far as I can tell both military and non-military leave trails and chemtrail-belivers call them chemtrails and non-believers call them contrails. I think it's as simple as that!
Considering water is a chemical, chemtrails, contails, tomato, tomato. I do not want to believe in trails, I want to know if they are there. Losing an argument with an experienced engineer doesn't mean that one is wrong, it means that you don't know enough to argue a technical subject with a tech.
Commercial planes can make trails, none of the commercial planes from airports in my surrounding area are in a high enough altitude after their take off and ending journeys to be the source. What you say about the Sunday trips is important and worth logging, just as clear skies for weeks. JazzRoc has obviously worked for several branches of the government. There are things he does not admit or acknowledge are strange. Remember, he told me my observation was wrong, it could not be one plane alone coming back and forth. How does he know that my observation is wrong; was he here to observe it? No, he just assumed I was wrong to prove his technical data about atmosphere and travel, as if my observations are an invalid for a technical argument. Observations are very important in scientific studies if not the most important thing. There are constantly trails made one after the next, in a perfect grid at times and in other patterns. I am not going to go on about the strangeness in it. It just doesn't add up. It is counter intuitive to think it is normal to see those things in strange patterns every 3 weeks give or take. Sometimes every day for a week and other times just a Sunday or Tuesday or Thursday.
Now I can see this is a disagreement between yourself and JazzRoc over him saying you are wrong. Well, I admit I had missed that and I agree with you it is impossible for him to know what you have seen. That all the trails he has been shown are made of ice crystals though I have no doubts and so I can follow his line of thought - the Internet has loads and loads of photos of grids and trails that cross and ones that change direction etc, however, if one realises that this is normal and is caused by ice crystals forming them then until one is shown something different it is likely that one's opinion would stay the same. He needs to be shown something that is unusual or different and no one has shown him any examples as yet.
Yes, there are trails, millions of them, seeing as they happen daily somewhere on the planet in large numbers and have been doing so for years but if they are made up of ice crystals calling them chemtrails is attributing a potentially toxic component to them that doesn't exist and so is a form of fear-mongering and causes people to worry about something that is only real as a belief system. Yes, there are countless numbers of trails and I believe in them too but the difference between myself and JazzRoc and you and other chemtrail-believers is that we believe they are made of ice and you believe they are made from barium, aluminum and othet toxins.
"none of the passenger aircraft were at an altitude to reach the chemtrails above. Nor are the trails showing a relationship with Orange County's John Wayne airport"
There are 5,000 planes in the sky at all times. Perhaps these high guys weren't from the local airport, eh?
"Aircraft travel up 5000 percent is mythical."
That's your third baseless assertive falsehood. There's a graph on the second page of my blog...
"After September 11, 2001, travel in the US declined by more than half."
Your fourth lie, stupid liar. Look at the graph...
"Also, airplanes do not just vary flight patterns so significantly from day to day that one day you see one hundred trails and for two-three weeks you have beautiful clear skies."
That's just the weather. It varies. Haven't you noticed?
"A large piece of evidence..."
No evidence at all...
"I KNOW that the evidence points only to nearly every trail being made by government aircraft. The purpose of their travel is the only part here that is actually trivial."
All YT films show civil passenger transport planes making persistent trails.
"We also know these same people control military aircraft actions."
By definition - no, they don't!
"What we don't know is why the aircraft are making some specific patterns in the sky only on certain days."
That's because you don't understand the science of what you are seeing.
"It doesn't matter if you believe in them or not."
For they don't exist either way.
"This is why I will eventually make a database that we can collect data, including weather conditions, day, place, time, and I am open to other suggestions from anyone who KNOWS what data would be valuable and necessary to record."
Yes. I recommend you do. It will be nice and quiet, with no noise....
"the force has been discussing in the last 24 hours."
I see it is with you. What has it been saying?
"I have been making many observations. Rather then detail and plaster photos here, when I have time I will post a hub since I haven't written anything in a while. Furthermore, I think I should program a small data base where people can document their observations day by day."
Yes. I recommend you do. It will be nice and quiet, with no noise....
"Losing an argument with an experienced engineer doesn't mean that one is wrong, it means that you don't know enough to argue a technical subject with a tech."
Completely and lamely wrong. It IS a "tech" subject, requiring PROOF, like maths. If you are WRONG, your argument is BULLSHIT.
"Commercial planes can make trails"
Ah...
"JazzRoc has obviously worked for several branches of the government."
Just for one, as an engineering civil servant.
"There are things he does not admit or acknowledge are strange."
I don't admit bullshit, pseudoscience, or bunkum. I acknowledge those weird out-of-focus flying "circles" in NASA vids are strange...
"Remember, he told me my observation was wrong"
Yeah. Almost everything you write is antithetical to FACT. I know what you were looking at was Air Traffic Control, and you completely misunderstand everything you see.
"It is counter intuitive"
No. Your "intuition" falls COMPLETELY short of any understanding of what you claim you see. You are UNEDUCATED.
JazzRoc thank you for answering the points raised by MD!
MD, there are JazzRoc's responses! He is not as polite as I am and I cannot edit his reply. I am approving it in the interests of this being an unbiased, though heated, debate and uncensored!
Funny!
Firstly, "There are 5,000 planes in the sky at all times. Perhaps these high guys weren't from the local airport, eh?"
That is my point exactly. They cannot be from either of the major airports around here. That is pretty significant detail. It is particularly relevant when you consider, no trails for weeks and then 100 or more trails in a day. Utah and Seattle are the major transfer airports, they would not be flying excessively over me nor side to side back to forth.
Second, I was not arguing that commercial planes don't make trails, I am arguing that none of the planes in the metropolitan area I live in do, because they do not reach the altitudes. Also, according to the freezing temperatures of the stratosphere, weather is not significantly different. If it were, then I would imagine we would never see trails during extremely hot summer days and we do.
"That's because you don't understand the science of what you are seeing."
Actually, I don't think it takes much science to identify circular patterns of government aircraft flown directly above a site that the President of the United States is landing. Again, on one specific day, with little weather variation from the prior two weeks when no trails were spotted, planes circled a point. That is indisputable. It happened, I have pictures, and if you insist I will date stamp film every single day there are no trails. Seems wasteful when I have many pictures of clear skies day after day, maybe just for the name of science. I must be a tech if I am smart enough to notice weeks and weeks of clear skies, with few planes; few planes without trails, especially since you didn't even cover weeks of clear days in all of your arguments. As if you think one needs to do complex math in order to see how many clear days vs. trail days.
"Completely and lamely wrong. It IS a "tech" subject, requiring PROOF, like maths. If you are WRONG, your argument is BULLSHIT."
If my argument is bullshit, I may still be correct! Isn't that called Lucky Larry, again, I may be correct whether or not my argument is sound. Also, I never said it was completely sound, nor did I say it was complete. I thought it was time to get back and show what I have concluded thus far. All I have concluded is that the aircraft in my region that make trails are usually from non-commercial aircraft and that it is not at all dependent on the weather. Also just to be clear, I have no intention to argue the components of jet fuel, I can't exactly jump up in the air with a beaker. My focus is on the nature of flight patterns, which is indeed questionable. If the times and days of trails are questionable and do not correlate with normal known flight patterns, then there is a reason to ask what they are doing. It could be something as simple as military training. There could be a training exercise involving grid coordinates or hey, it could be cynical in plot. First, I think we should look at how frequent the abnormalities are.
Secondly, this posting is nice and quiet with no noise. Perhaps less noise than an observation data base.
Your harsh response makes me think I have indeed found a hole in your argument. The hole being that all the flights we see are perfectly normal, that is simply untrue and you are a liar. If you really expect me to believe that normal flight is for me to watch two jets(non commercial)fly parallel to each other at approx. 5-10 miles apart at the same time and at the same moment while two other jets fly parallel to each other keeping the same general distance and perpendicular to the other 2 jets. I can at this point approximate distance very well because I have been watching the sky for some time now. I would add that at the very least, to the credit of all my concern; the sky is very beautiful and I enjoy watching it so intently as I have been.
"Just for one, as an engineering civil servant."
Then you, JazzRoc, do not have access to all the fuels that may have been recently developed. Also, "By definition - no, they don't!" Yes, they do. They have specific agendas, they may or may not be involved at will.
OK, MD, thanks for posting your response to JazzRoc's!
My personal take on all of this right now is this: if persistent trails are made of ice crystals the unusual nature of what we are seeing is simply there are far more planes and there is far more water up there to make the ice. That's it - everything else is looking for problems when there are none apart from what I just outlined - there are too many planes and too much water up there and not enough down here in many parts! I have even theorised there is more up there from melting icecaps and glaciers. That water goes somewhere and not all into the sea. If I am wrong on that JazzRoc will no doubt correct me.
MD, I agree that of course there are military exercises from time to time and I would say with trails and without trails.
We always have chemtrails being seeded into our blue sky here in Las Vegas.
If you have read my hubs you will see that I do not believe any longer that chemtrails exist. What you call chemtrails I call contrails. Thanks for posting though!
Another great hub, Bard! I find it troubling that you noticed a correlation between trails in the skies and flu-like symptoms in the past. Fast forward to today - a lot of Mexicans reported chemtrails in the month of April and now we have this freakin' franken-flu.
I believe in Science, I believe JazzRoc is an intelligent guy that knows what he's talking about, but
Oops. I clicked 'Post Comment' before I finished. Like that cliff hanger? haha.
As I was saying, BUT... I'm still on the fence and this new pandemic, mixed with the reports of (more than usual) 'trails' over Mexico City in recent weeks has left me wondering.
Whatever the source of the flu is there is no need at all for chemtrails to spread it. As a contagious disease it spreads from person to person I assume just like other types of flu. I used to notice that the trails were there when there were outbreaks of illness and had read chemtrailer reports highlighting this as evidence but I had failed to note that it was when you would expect flu and colds to be going around in the wet and cold winter months and was more to do with the time of year.
I would add though that those who fear what they call "chemtrails" are to that degree harming the body's immunity because a depressed and fearful mind and body is far more likely to get ill than a happy and unafraid one. This produces two types of people: happy and healthy ones who don't care about or even know about chemtrails and depressed and worried chemtrailers, who when they get ill with a lowered immune system stressed by their fears, then attribute it to the trails as proof. And of course, if they then share the fact they are ill with other chemtrail believers then they will be supported in their belief by their fellows saying yes, of course it was from "all the spraying."
I completely agree with you - people who obsess and/or live in a state of fear are often the unhealthiest people.
You bring up a very valid point regarding the transmission of this influenza. Who needs to "spray" something like this when it can just as easily be passed person to person. Or, as it happened in Switzerland Wednesday, just haul a frozen container of swine flu on a passenger train and let it explode and pop a passenger in the head, whoops! (Please tell me you read that article. I posed a link to it on the swine flu forum). You just can't make this stuff up...
Thank you very much for sharing your experiences and research, Bard.
I was just thinking you could even pay people to be infected just so the statistics could be increased. Plenty of poor people would accept that especially if they knew there was not much risk and that they could be treated. Thousands of people are regularly paid to be medical and drug test subjects. People will do al sorts of dangerous stuff for money.
It wouldn't surprise me if many of the cases being reported are actually other types of flu but being lumped in under the swine flu banner just like they do with AIDS.
I do believe that all conspiracy theories should be researched as much as possible otherwise it is just like the sheeple who believe what the mainstream media and advisers tell them. Just because Alex Jones or David Icke or Michael Tsarion says it doesn't make it the truth.
What a sad thought but anything is possible. I've read a lot about the history of human medical experiments. In fact, I think I'll write a hub about some of my research tomorrow. The 'studies' are enough to make your jaw drop and your eyes bug out. Some, sick sick stuff.
It wouldn't surprise me either if the numbers are inaccurate. They've been going up and down in Mexico (different media outlets, newspapers, etc. reporting different numbers) and like you, I think cases are being lumped in under h1n1.
I'm really not a follower of any of these conspiracy guys. I've been following Jones lately because he's made some really (in my opinion) off the wall claims and I'm waiting for him to back them up. Like, "I have proof that we're at stage 6 of pandemic" and "obama owns stock in tamiflu." If you can't back it up, why say it? And if you're listening to someone who can't back it up, why spread it around as truth? I'm not picking at Jones, he just happens to be the person that comes to mind.
Hello again,
I haven't been able to find the full docu, but watching the segments of it will do!!!!
I am not finished yet, from my understanding, there are shots from space. What this #3 of 27 of Don't Talk About the weather proves is the parallel flying, two at the same time, u turns.
That is what i said and I was disputed...though apparently am not the only one seeing it.
Based on altitude of planes from nearby airports, i have also proved that they are all military flyovers!!!!!!!! I have watched commercial planes fly under faded persistant trails.
I am also lucky that is has been months without significant trail days. Even now, they are quite few in comparison to what England must be seeing and for a while, clear skies, but
Hello again, MD! Thanks for posting! I am still of the opinion that there are no chemtrails. There are trails, loads of them, and I saw some here the other day, but they do not contain barium, aluminium and all the other nasty stuff that chemtrail-believers claim, as far as I am concerned, and therefore I have no reason to worry about or look for threats that are probably not there.
My switch in viewpoint is not that I am saying the trails do not exist but simply that they do exist but are nothing to worry about, although I agree that aesthetically they spoil the appearance of the sky and I believe they do hinder the amount of sunlight getting through.
Just watch the film! Some of it is repetitive, but it really eliminates many of Jazz's 20 Thing he thinks he knows!!!!
Watching a plane with vapor trails fly through a trail already ruins his so called facts. There are other engineers that say the vapors will not remain persistant in air in less there is a neuron particle, something solid. Over here, we do not have webs falling from the sky, and if we did, California scientists up in Berkeley would be rioting!!!! For places that do have them and have tested them, geez, and it shows the conflicting public explanations given by the main stream media. Plus, they referenced several pieces of legislation, here are 2:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill= andhttp://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=
and the only claim they make, that is unproven, but makes sense if you consider the evidence of metals, is that it may have something to do with HAARP
I watched the whole video and wondered why you wanted me to see it! It is just like so many more videos on YouTube of so-called chemtrail evidence and skies that I have epersonally witnessed. I didn't see any evidence of anything more than persistent contrails and artificial cirrus cloud cover resulting from them. The plane "flying through" could merely appear to be flying through.
Very interesting hub and very interesting debate. I remain faithfully on the fence, but leaning towards water vapour and Ice chrystals based on a summary of the debating points in the comments.
Thanks for posting, sixtyorso!
The whole video of ten minutes, or the whole series? Did you read the senate bills? Did you see the plane with vapor trails fly through a persistent trail? I had asked Jazz about that before and he said it was because of different pockets of temperature...a lie! And what i showed you is that his answer has been proven bullshit! Did you see the guy who was a pilot of 40 years and never saw this kind of stuff in his life? Like i said!!!!! Neutron Particles!!!! "merely appeared to be flying through" You are willing to say it is all so irrelevant, but your biggest argument is to hide behind is the time you saw the moon with the ice crystals glowing around it. Plus all the footage of the news casters and experts giving contradicting stories, and the bills i posted links to, it all pretty much blows Jazz Roc's #16 and #17 right out of the water, more lies. Plus the rainbow effects on video versus #9 and #10 are entirely different concepts. I see i am going to spell everything out here!
You should be debating with JazzRoc not me! I didn't see anything in the video I watched that hasn't been explained by him or the contrailscience site. The bills proved nothing either and the one is that old chestnut with wording including chemtrails on it that was started by a UFO group. Yes, I saw the plane fly through a trail but as I explained it is probably at a different level and only looks like its on the same one.
My "biggest argument" you clearly have failed to understand and it is this - that if sun halos are caused by the same thing as moon halos and it is ice crystals and the sun halos I saw here were caused by planes then the planes were and are producing ice crystals and that's it! Vast vast amounts of ice crystals, heavens obscured with ice crystals, beautiful views ruined by ice crystals, sunlight blocked by ice crystals but no poisons, just ice!
Well, for one thing, what you think matters more to me than does Jazz Roc's thoughts! If i get time, i will write a hub against his 20 things and i will cite sources. He is wrong on many points, regardless what chemtrails are, he has a few points that are invalid! Easy to prove invalid.
Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson and Senator Kucinich are not ufo groups, those are the senators that drafted the two bills!
Go for it! I used to argue with him but eventually had to admit I was wrong and that he knows his subject much better than I do and as I have repetitively pointed out it answered a lot of questions like why lichens that cannot tolerate air pollution were growing very well under heavily trailed skies, and why the elite are not worried about breathing the air and why the majority of people are not ill or dying in areas that get regular trails overhead.
Kucinich didn't even know the term had been used in the bill and he wasn't happy with it when he found out.
"HR 2977 was written by a bunch of UFO enthusiasts intent on exposing a conspiracy to suppress alien technology. Dennis Kucinich did not write the bill, he not know what chemtrails were, and when he found out, he distanced himself from that language. The bill was re-written in order that it might pass." See the full article: Kucinich, Chemtrails and HR 2977. http://contrailscience.com/kucinich-chemtrails-and
This has been explained long ago.
MD Free -
"proves is the parallel flying, two at the same time, u turns" - nothing of the sort. Civil aircraft will often be found flying in parallel: it's just that their altitudes will be 2000 feet apart. Or their horizontal separation ten miles apart. You believe that civil/military aircraft fly free, when in fact they are strictly controlled from takeoff to landing."i have also proved that they are all military flyovers!" - You don't know what an idiot that makes you sound."I have watched commercial planes fly under faded persistant trails" - They are pretty much likely to fly under or over - or through."they are quite few in comparison to what England must be seeing" - Cannot be correct. Each day TEN times as many planes overfly the US as the UK."it really eliminates many of Jazz's 20" - You wish. If you were scientifically educated you would understand you are NOT arguing with me, but with ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACT."Watching a plane with vapor trails fly through a trail already ruins his so called facts" - There is NOTHING to prevent a trail being made THROUGH a trail."There are other engineers that say the vapors will not remain persistant in air in less there is a neuron particle" - Really? What IS a neuron particle?"Over here, we do not have webs falling from the sky" - Your world is WITHOUT SPIDERS?"the only claim they make that is unproven is that it may have something to do with HAARP" - I've yet to see ANY proof. Just bullshit, like yours."Did you see the plane with vapor trails fly through a persistent trail? I had asked Jazz about that before and he said it was because of different pockets of temperature...a lie!" - I believe I said HUMIDITY. The stratosphere is layered with progressively warmer layers with increasing altitude. The SINGLE thing that may be different about the layers (apart from their heading) will be their HUMIDITY."a pilot of 40 years and never saw this kind of stuff in his life?" - I have several pilot friends who fly Jungmans or Tiger Moths. They would say the same. However, NO airline pilot would. They all KNOW their engines give off water which can precipitate more water out of the atmosphere. You DON'T."Like i said! Neutron Particles!" - Actually, you didn't. A NEUTRON is a sub-atomic particle - NOT a particle. Think about that, bozo. Also think about what you SHOULD have written."your biggest argument is to hide behind is the time you saw the moon with the ice crystals glowing around it" - And that, too, is bollocks. Your test is to understand what a rainbow actually IS. TELL ME. You could not."Plus all the footage of the news casters and experts giving contradicting stories, and the bills i posted links to, it all pretty much blows JazzRoc's #16 and #17 right out of the water, more lies." - I worked out that it would take 3.4 million tons of a barium/fuel compound and 70,000 tanker flights to "single shot" the Earth in such a matter. Apparently some government team did the same, but came up with a figure SIX times bigger. Either way it's meaningless, because the costs are too great, the "visibility" too high, and the gains too nebulous for even a FOOL to attempt it. This doesn't stop even bigger fools from suggesting it, though. They merely have to be scientifically and mathematically, er - challenged."Plus the rainbow effects on video versus #9 and #10 are entirely different concepts." - Refraction and diffraction effects on supercooled water droplets and microscopic ice particles. Such droplets arise ONLY out of PURE supersaturated air. It is noticeable that since we last communicated you have not taken a single step to LEARN any science."Kay Bailey Hutchinson and Senator Kucinich are not ufo groups, those are the senators that drafted the two bills!" - In the case of Kuchinich - HE DIDN'T. http://contrailscience.com/kucinich-chemtrails-and Hutchinson I don't know about.You will continue to consider me some sort of "semantic disinformer" until you learn to understand the science of your atmosphere. It is up to you.
Thank you for taking the time to answer all those points, Jazzroc!
Interesting and informative commentary. I have often wondered myself, looking up at oh so many lingering contrails. Glad you posted this...I ran across it inadvertantly while looking for 'colloidal silver' rods...haha. I'm not a big conspiracy theorist but I do question many things and appreciate your candor.
Thank you, Pupaenation! I use Colloidal Silver myself.
Mind you don't turn BLUE, Bard! :)
I'd get loads of publicity then as blue man number two! lol
I can't believe that people get worked up about grids.
What's even more strange is that for someone to get worked up about them then they can't have seen one formed. If they have not seen one formed then how do they know it was formed? How do they know it was one plane?
These trails move. With the wind.
So one plane flies through, leaving a trail. This trail is blown away from where it was formed. Another plane flies the same path as the first plane and leaves a trail. The original trail has moved, the new trail is where the original one was. These two trails then both move. Another plane flies through the same path as the first two and leaves a trail. You now have 3 trails, all in a different position but formed by 3 planes flying along the same path.
Nothing suspicious about that. Only the minds that see the results are suspicious.
To form a grid you just need a route going in a different direction.
I even saw an X formed by two planes flying the same route the other day due to the wind.
Thank you for posting that explanation of something that so many people see as evidence of a threat that doesn't really exist!
Very detailed and interesting information and I will have to come back and go through it again. I am basically finished with chemtrails made today, and would like to link to your hub if you don't mind. Thanks for all your info!
Certainly, please do link my hub! Thank you for posting and letting me know!
Thank you Steve, Bard of Ely! :-) I'll be back again!
pgrundy says:
14 months ago
Wow, this was a really frank and brave exposition of a personal journey that ended with you changing your mind--something most people never admit. People seem to almost NEVER say, "Oh yeah, I used to think that but I changed my mind." I don't know why people don't just admit it more often--it isn't a weakness, it's a sign of strength and confidence to be able to say that and not feel like it makes you bad or wrong. I admire you for it. Thank you for the hub.
As to chemtrails and weather manipulation, I think it's like so many topics that are just outside the mainstream--there is some credibility to it at least as possibility, but then people get carried away and make a religion out of it somehow, which makes no sense. I love speculative ideas like that, but I don't take any of them as gospel, I just figure, well, that could happen--unless it couldn't. And I'm sure somewhere some fool really IS trying to develop a weapon that works by manipulating the weather. I mean, if a thing can be done you can be sure someone is out there trying to do it. But that doesn't make every puff od water vapor in a clear sky suspicious.
Thanks for a great hub. I enjoyed reading it. I always like hearing what is on your mind--it's never boring!