Dear Hub Page Community
54
First and foremost, an olive branch...
I'm awake from a nap after much back and forth in the forum. Firstly, let me apologize to the Hub community. Apparently, I had a misstep - blowing in to ask questions without stating ALL of my purposes first.
Although I still maintain that my #1 purpose in asking questions is for personal use, it's true I'm writing an eBook about Hub Pages to help others learn the ropes as well.
I also want to apoogize for fanning the flames by announcing the thread to my list. My hope wasn't to have defenders coming to bat in a way that caused more friction, but to hopefully have people who DO know my marketing methods put your fears at ease. It just didn't turn out that way because bless their hearts, they read it and came to my defense in a defensive way. This is normal online and I didn't think it through when I did that.
I Can Only Learn and Teach
I think part of the argument here is the marketing part. Bringing aboard marketers isn't ideal. But if you go to online forums, you'll realize they're increasing in numbers and this will help educate people.
That said, rest assured I'm not releasing the eBook until I feel I am qualified to teach others. If you're not in marketing, you won't understand what that free sneak peek was all about. It's used to gauge interest, gain feedback, and see how well a product on Hub Pages would work. It was not to go ahead and say I'm an expert, hence the threads where I admit I'm a total newbie.
Now, what I'd ideally love is to be able to discover from the good people on this forum, what we as marketers are doing wrong, so that we CAN contribute to it while we make a success of our efforts.
This is beneficial to all. Certain people, like Robin, Maddie, Stacie, and others have been most helpful. Flaming does nothing for either side, so I won't engage in that (even if it means defending myself) anymore.
I know from the people on my list that most marketers are not scammy. It's the small number of big moneymakers who automate everything and then get to a level where they don't care anymore who abuse the system. They're here now, pasting PLR on here, using nothing but wrong techniques.
Believe it or not, MANY want to learn. I'm a journalist and researcher and I'll tell ya, this is NOT an easy site to figure out. Maybe it was for YOU, but it's not for a lot of people.
You can point all day to faq, tos, and Hub explanation pages, but it's that very scouting around that's a turnoff to someone who wants to quickly get the hang of something (someone who would prefer to have it all laid out in front of them).
So I'm here to learn. If you want to help spread the word, please feel free to pass along your tips and insight. If you feel it's offensive, I'm okay with your decision.
What I Learned Through All the Mud-Slinging
Thanks to Paul and one other Hubber (I forget his or her name), I discovered the approach I had initially jotted down "Harnessing Traffic from Hub Pages" isn't beneficial to anyone.
Why? Because as Paul pointed out, it's not what Hub Pages wants - to have you funnel traffic from them. That said, I believe if someone contributes quality and original content, it does provide value to Hub Pages and in return, they're allowed to post up to 2 links to a site in their content.
I believe a more impactful and beneficial title would be, "Harnessing the Power of Hub Pages," because that's what it appears to be - a powerful social network. It's not a closed community, but if people aren't allowed to learn and grow (yes, even from an eBook), then it feels like one.
The whole money thing - yes, I'm doing a lot of work to put this together. There's a lot of outside elements that go into it that even you will benefit from, such as how I'll teach them to bring traffic TO their hub pages, which will flow over into YOUR hub pages.
Teach them right, and this could be a boon to everyone! Leave them floundering, and poor Maddie's gonna have a hard time sifting through flagged hubs because threads are increasing about Hub Pages - especially now that people see good results with Squidoo and want to multiply their success.
So my focus will still be on teaching Hub Pages as a whole (every single detail I can discover), but I won't promote it as just a way to harness traffic from the site.
My promise to you...
Is that I will listen to your concerns. Just as I listened to whomever it was who hated the title because of what it stood for. If I hadn't had to settle down because I was aggitated, I probably would have seen that much faster.
I'm a stubborn, bull-headed person. I'm not the type to go cry about forum nonsense. I usually have fun with it. But I also hope any silly arguments won't cloud my vision and make me not learn something.
So if you have concerns, issues, comments, hopes, wishes, whatever - list them here and I promise to address or consider each one.
I Can Also Take Action to Repair the Damage...
I just realized something. Although I may not be fully Hub savvy yet, I DO have insight into topics that can help other Hub users. So I can give as well as take, in other words.
I went into the Hub forum today and noticed two areas I could give tips - traffic and affiliate sales. So I will pop in there daily to see if there's any way I can help in areas others might need assistance with.
The kind of stuff I do isn't "make money overnight" stuff, so it's stuff all Hub people can do (ie: writing tips, social networking and traffic tips, etc). If you have questions I can help with, feel free - whether it's about Squidoo, traffic, writing, or whatever.
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Whaddya Say?
Yes, I am planning to produce an honest and helpful one. I do not condone blackhat or spam tactics at all. The way I feel is, it's my community, too! I don't want it tarnished.
Many aren't a fan of eBooks, but then again Im not just some random person who writes them. My entire college career was in both broadcast and print Journalism - first things I learned were ethics and law. Then how to research well and write for my audience. So I hope I'll do you proud ;)
Thank you Tiffany! I look forward to your book (one of the specific things I haven't been able to figure out yet is how to include an image NEXT to text...you will address that I hope?!?)
I am a huge fan of ANY kind of books... and have classics as well as children's stories as eBooks because it's an inexpensive way to share them globally. Have to confess I wasn't even aware of their "spammy" reputation for some people...
which again highlights, it's all about perspective.
I appreciate you and your clarity and commitment here about exactly what you're up to!
Write On! ;-)
~~MK
I like ebooks and they are easier to obtain online and this will always be a part of any IM's promotions, research comes first above all else and then creating your info comes next, then marketing and then optimizing your creation based on feedback, So I can understand why you ask questions in the hub forum, after all that's what forums are for, Q+A sessions always take place in discussion boards.
Tiff I look forward to the Ebook
Thanks for the kind comment. That was one of the hardest things I had to figure out, too! To add an image next to the text, have a text capsule below a photo capsule. Add your photo and fill in your text in those two capsules. I make mine half or quarter width.
Then, there's a little arrow pointing to the right on that photo capsule. Click that and it should move that capsule down aligned right next to the text. If it doesn't work, let me know and I'll make a video for ya.
To be honest, I also am not a fan of ebooks. I love the print medium, though I've had to learn to work in supplying web content.
If there is a demand for the information that your book offers, it will sell.
I'm not sure how I feel about the whole thing. I only read a little of what was going on in the forum so I don't know the whole story yet, but I think that others feel as I do - protective of Hubpages, not wanting it to become something different than what it is, and what it is intended to be. But I think you're cognisant of that.
Good luck.
Thanks, Shirley! I am aware and I'm going to do my best to present the information in a way that will contribute to and not detract from the community. I want it to succeed, too.
I missed all the argument and am not sure what this was all about. Looks like you learned to be very upfront -- always a good idea online where people will bite your head off at times.
Tiffany,
While I don't agree with your method, your intention of making money off of the information compiled by the people who have tried, tested and spent hours and hours of their lives providing that information here on hubpages already, I have a question that's been burning in my noggin since I left the whole ordeal on the forums:
I fully understand the concept of compiling the important information "newbies" need to know. Why don't you just compile a list of links to the hubs written by the already successful and well-known authors who have done the work for you? No need for an ebook or to try and profit off of their information, and it would be a win-win. You'd just insert your tracker into the links, and wouldn't have to write anything.
Just a thought, a query, and a comment. There you go.
Hi Gamergirl,
Just to note, I'm also spending a lot of time here learning, testing, tweaking, etc.
But on the other stuff - a list of links to Hub pages explaining everything is not what my audience wants. Can you imagine having to go scout out so many different pages to try to find just one tip? As opposed to looking in a table of contents to see where you might find "image alignment" etc.?
I'm doing most of this on my own, from a newbie perspective. But when I get stuck on something, I ask a fellow Hub friend of mine. If they don't know, then I go to the forum to see if anyone else knows.
So hopefully that clears it up as to why I'm doing this. Obviously, you're not my target audience, but the people who have no time to click on link after link trying to find one simple tip are the people who want it laid out for them.
If you need further clarification as to why they like the compilation of an eBook, please read this: http://www.warriorforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_
Tiffany,
I have followed your to fro spats with every one having ago at you. I di believe you deserve some of it.
I have also seen some hubbers get out of the kitchen because it got too hot.
Too much abuse and arguement. I think ultimately it is my decision if I buy your ebook. Some people think they have created the World and charge accordingly.
That is choice.
Good luck and I hope the price is right.
Thanks, Mr. Marmalade! That's why I created this - I hated disrupting the forum that way and it wasn't my intention :) Not sure on price point yet, but we'll see!
Interesting answer. Thanks for it. Ciao!
This is much better than the "more heat than light" that forum thread had degenerated into.I am glad to hear that you have moved away from "use HubPages to generate traffic", because I did feel that was a misrepresentation.
I think it is very important that you debunk ALL those myths in your book.
And, I will say, you have not yet discovered for yourself the true power of HubPages.
But you have shown character, and I think my belief in you will be justified.
Maybe not in time for the production of this book, but if you keep participating here, it will eventually develop for you.
There is so much more here than you see right now ... but you are on the right path.
Jenny
P.S. Thanks for apologising about the influx of "defenders", some of whom were decidedly inappropriate!
Hi Jenny!
I do feel Hub Pages has a use for traffic, but it WAS misguiding to represent it as a "traffic funnel" as a title - there's so much more to it than that and I can rightly see how that might make people just paste links and move on. Don't want that :)
You're very right - I have not seen the whole power of Hub Pages. Right now, I'm preparing content (like my stress one or cholesterol one) and then getting images, making sure first and foremost that it's quality content I'm providing before moving onto step 2.
I am very excited to peel the layers back on this site and see what all it has to offer! I think it's important for others to see it, too. Right now, ALL I hear abut in countless forums is, "Hub Pages are ugly, but good for backlinks."
Well now I know that's not true. I finally figured out how to align images next to text and it makes it much more aesthetically pleasing. I'll learn and others will, too. We may need some extra insight if we can't find the answers on our own, but the great news is - we'll be getting GOOD information and not lies that are already being spread that it's nothing more than a backlink factory.
Tiff ;)
PS - They meant well. I take total responsibility for that. It backfired on me, too. Many saw it and decided they refused to ever come here again (not what I wanted). Two felt I shouldn't have dragged my list into it. Most supported me, but now I see I should have a.) not gotten in an online argument and b.) not told everyone about it. It was childish (me announcing it) and I vow to not have it repeat for me!
That is what i call growing fast in the fast lane.
more congratulations
Hi Tiffany, I didn´t participate on that forum thread because I figured that it will end the way it did :/
I believe you are really trying to understand how hubpages work and to apprehend the spirit behind this community. The thing is you will never be able to teach that spirit to people who want it laid out for them. Those people (who always want everything laid out for them) will never be incline to make their own good content hubs, they probably will try to copy/paste others work. And hubpages has already enough of those giving as you said too much work to Maddie and to all of us who flag them :/
Personally I want to believe that in time you´ll see that what is needed to became a real Hubber can´t be learn from a ebook. I believe there are no easy ways here in hubpages and you will see that every successful hubber has gone through lots of work/hubbing to earn his/her credibility inside the community. There are not two identical hubbers but we want all hubbers to be equal to each others.
You can make an ebook on how to make a great hub, but first you have to make great hubs.
You can make an ebook on how to make money with hubpages, but I expect you make it first for your own.
You can make an ebook on how to be successful in hubpages...
But you can´t make an ebook that teaches people how to become hubbers. There will always be people who never match with this community spirit, no matter how many ebooks they read :( . But I guess you´re not one of them ;)
Have fun!
Thanks Tiff,
Your forum thread has given me sooo much material for my Slammers Club hub. I cannot wait to get started.
I must admit though, when you look at the forum threads it is generally only recent members such as joined 2 or 3 months ago and the odd member with over 12 months service that come out as the experts on all things hub. That tells me there are not that many long standing members for a site that's been going >12months and it is only some new members keeping this all going.
Maybe they (the founding members) are silent or they moved onto more productive sites then hubpages.
I've seen these types (How to Hubpages - just G search) of ebooks before and can think of a thousand other topics to compile a book on. As for your comments about hubpages on other forums - I have seen that too.
I have checked numerous e-books out to find ways to generate wealth,but every time you come to the end of the book,it will state(for 39 bucks I will drive sources to your site and make you a wealthy person)Oh by the way this is a special offer,as it usually sells for $99.00.LOL
Funride, I understand the community spirit side, and no – not everyone will grasp it. But I DO teach it. But it’s also true that there are many who stumble here on their own, slap up poor Hubs, and also don’t get the community spirit.
Many users of Hubs are struggling. It’s in a lot of forums. And I’m not talking about the “make money online fast” crowd. I’m talking stay at home moms who want to blog, baby boomers looking for a way to supplement their income, and more.
Why should someone have to suffer for their education? Just because they want it laid out in a step by step format does not mean they’re not willing to provide excellent content and put the time and effort it takes to create a good Hub.
They invest money into the product for an education. Give them credit for doing that because they care to learn the right way. Many don’t. Don’t shun them because they read an eBook instead of spending months trying to figure it out on their own.
And of course not everything can be learned by reading an eBook. I can read about good parenting skills, but I have to become a parent to fully understand what good parenting is. That’s why this eBook will benefit them. It will allow them to come here without fear of retribution. It may not really be a big deal, but they get ashamed when a Hub gets flags – as if they did something wrong – and they don’t know why. They quit, humiliated.
Terryg, I am researching the numbers and growth of the site now. I’m not exactly sure how it compares to Squidoo other than the forum post Hub made about the numbers when you remove Squidoo’s X portion.
Firead45, you are 100% correct. Most eBooks are like that. Not mine. It’s why this industry has such a tarnished reputation. And unfortunately, many new entrepreneurs think the only way to make money is to come out with a make money eBook, cycling the same old empty promises.
Not me. I could never put out something I felt was a scam or inferior to someone else’s product on the same topic. I’d feel rotten. So I am not a seven figure marketer. I don’t join big product launches where one poor sap gets 10 different emails about Joe Blow’s product expiring in 24 hours. Never have. Never will. I just write my own quality content based on my own experiences and I let people judge for themselves.
Thanks, everyone!
Tiff ;)
The first action I took when I joined HubPages was to print out the "getting started" information. It was helpful, but only to a point. It lacked detailed information about manipulating capsules, entering keywords into affiliate capsules, specifics about TOS infractions, definitions of features such as "flag", and I could go on. Yes, it was a help in getting started, but it wasn't enough.
When I stumbled onto a few technically-oriented Hubs written by Hubbers, I finally began to find the information I wanted. I started printing it out like crazy, organizing the material, indexing it, and weeding out the duplications. In essence, I now have my own useful "beginner's guide to creating Hubs without breaking the rules".
This little project took me weeks to accomplish, and quite frankly, I could have used my time much more constructively. I could have been writing many more Hubs if I had the right documentation to begin with.
As I compiled and learned, I thought about approaching HubPages to ask if plans were in the works to upgrade user documentation. What would be the benefit to HubPages? Simply stated, by reducing the newbie's frustration with mechanics and rules, HubPages would create an environment where quality Hub production begins quickly and is sustained, which would then generate more revenue more quickly for HubPages. I think that's a pretty good benefit.
I have been in the corporate communications business for many years, and I know the value of results-oriented documentation. I also know how much it costs to create. At an hourly rate of $150 for the right consultant who can manage the project, outsource the labor (at an additional hourly cost), and deliver quality product to time, well, you get the idea.
So now, I finally come to my point.
Tiffany, you are proposing a documentation set that targets the HubPages user and offers valuable information about getting up and running, understanding the rules, and making money by writing quality Hubs. The end result of your effort, as I understand through this Hub and the forum thread, would be to make Hubbing more profitable for both the Hubber and HubPages. In the process, you are not charging HubPages a dime.
HubPages, your users will have exactly the documentation set they need, at their own expense, in order to generate more revenue for you. And it won't cost you a dime.
I don't see anything too wrong with this plan, except that a HubPages user would have to pay for his own useful documentation in order to generate money for the company who could have provided results-oriented documentation at the beginning.
With all that said, I do think HubPages is a wonderful, supportive community that provides real opportunity for those who want to work hard and ethically to create quality articles (and make money). Anything that helps us do all that is fine with me.
Best Regards, Sally’s Trove.
I think it is good for the soul to learn to do things one's self, but it is too much to expect a practically illeterate computer user, like me for instance, to learn how to manipulate all the possibilities for creating a Hub.
I don't want all hubs to look the same and don't like adds in amongst the aspects of my hubs...so haven't signed up completely for them all yet, (don't think I have!?) not sure if I will. Money is not my main concern here on HubPages, at this point in time.
I will not pay for information about how to create Hubs, ever. But will gladly and gratefully link to other Hubbers to learn.
Didn't read the "using HubPages to funnel traffic away from HubPages" thread fight, but my limited understanding of what went on just reading this Hub, is that anyone doing so is not welcome in the community. There's enough use, abuse, backstabbing and greed going on in the world and online, we don't need it or want it here.
But if you are willing to join in community to support and raise standards of excellence, I welcome you!
Sparkling Jewel
Bravo Salley's Trove! You hit the nail on the head. Thanks for saying what I wanted to, but 10xs better!
Sparkling Jewel, I agree - so changing my slant was a good idea ;) And thanks for the welcome - I'll make ya proud!
Must have missed that forum thread. But, glad I wasn't a part of it. I did see you asking several questions for you book. I do agree that it takes time to promote yourself as an expert, and although you've been here 6 months- pleny of time to know the ropes- you haven't seemed to have spent much time on the site making hubs and whatnot. I do wish you luck with the book, but I won't be purchasing it. :-\ I like the traffic that I get, and I'm not sure if a traffic to hubs type ebook would be too beneficial, since the site alone gets really good traffic. It's not Squidoo. I have similar lenses as some of my hubs and those hubs that are of the same topic and content receive at least 5 times the traffic.
That's great, Whitney! And it's exactly why many marketers want to learn the ropes :) I haven't been working on this eBook as a way to sell to people who use Hub Pages already. My goal is to sell to those who need help - who haven't used the site or at least not very much - because they cant figure it out.
TIff :)
Oh Tiffany...
Thank you, thank you, thank you for the image tip!!!
It worked!!!!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....
;-) Mary K
Well there ya go - I gave a FREE tip. Imagine that! LOL Glad it worked for you, Mary! :)
Please don't send an army of "marketers" who will spam this place up just like they do on Squidoo.
I'm not sending anyone, esocial. Marketers are already on Hub Pages (some are spamming and some aren't). My goal is to teach people how to use it the right way. Google around and see how many marketing forums are just advising using Hub Pages for links. Word is spreading rapidly, but this will at least teach some to use it the right way :)Tiff
I think you're using the word "marketers" a bit liberally. Knowing how to publish a Squidoo lens or Hub, and slap some affiliate links on it does not make one a real marketer.
We agree! It does not. That's why I teach them how to properly use the sites :)Tiff
I missed whatever fuss was occurring but my overall impression is that the divide seems to be between some who distrusts "marketers" and some who wants to provide help to them in using hubpages as a tool.
it seems to me that marketers should be judged as individuals and not as a group just like individuals in any other group.
There are marketers that I despise and some that I really appreciate because they have helped me enormously in completely straightforward and ethical ways and at a great price.
Everyone seems to agree that Hubpages is a great place and it would be a real shame to let anyone destroy it's value.
It sounds like Tiffany's idea of putting together a book where someone could find all the information they need to get the most out of Hubpages is a great idea and it is something that I might buy depending on how good it is,how much she will want to charge for it and how much I have learned by the time she publishes it.
I missed the forum thread in question, and glad I did as I have never been drawn to online drama. I usually learn on my own or by asking questions. I found a few hubbers to be very helpful when I first joined; but I assume, there will be new members who will appreciate having information in an E-book format, so I wish you the best of luck!
I figure it's for those who are or thinking about HubPages, but the site is pretty simple to use. Traffic is pretty simple to understand for the site as well... I feel so anyway.
There seems to be a lot of heat here. I came here because I was looking for certain information. If I had that information in a book somewhere, I would not have come. My coming here has earned you an extra hit. I have a strong feeling that the missing information has been left out with a very good reason – so that new hubbers can find and read that hub you posted one year ago.
But then on the other hand, a frog’s eyes can not prevent a horse from drinking the water. Go ahead TiffanyDow and produce the book because the more we continue to tell you not to produce the book the more you become convinced that you should produce it.
Hi Ngureco!
I haven't been on here a year, so I'm not sure it's me you're talking about, but it's good that you're here!
tiff ;)
Gadzooks says:
2 years ago
Must have missed that fracas, have to say Im not a fan of ebooks, I suppose they have such a spammy reputation.
If you think there is a need for one, and your planning to produce an honest helpful one then good luck with it.