Democratic Christianity
63I'd like to tackle a subject that I hadn't really thought much about until recently and could get a little sticky.
In a previous hub, I mentioned that I was a Republican and conservative in nature. I am also a Christian (my spiritual denomination is Baptist). So I probably fall into the category that a lot of political pundits refer to when they talk about those who vote based of their spiritual/moral beliefs.
A colleague at work recently asked me if I ever thought that Christians who voted non-Republican are voting from a non-Christian point of view. This is something that I had never considered before and after giving it some thought, I can't honestly say I know for sure, but individuals who fall into this category do give me pause.
One of the most fundamental issues I have on a conservative front is abortion. I cannot under any circumstances vote for someone who believes abortion is acceptable. In fact, when the news had indicated that John McCain was considering Tom Ridge as a VP candidate (who is pro-choice) I had made a decision I would not vote for McCain if that happened. I wouldn't vote for Obama either (who in my opinion has pro-choice views that border close to selective breeding) but would have looked into an independent candidate at that point. The abortion issue is that strong for me and stems from my Christian upbringing that it is nothing short of murder.
Now, I know bringing up abortion could only make a sticky topic even stickier. But I am surprised that there would be a Christian individual who would be okay with abortion and vote for someone who is pro-choice. I find it hard to believe that as a Christian, you wouldn't find abortion to be a sinful practice.
So, thinking about this some, I would have to think that those individuals who do vote for pro-choice candidates and are Christians do so because this issue is not as paramount to them. But this surprises me too. As a Christian, I have always tried to place moral issues as a top priority in my life and/or voting practices. I'm not saying that as a Christian that I'm not sinful, I certainly am, but just that I am constantly thinking about the moral side of things and try my best to deal with those things accordingly.
Another example, would be that I would have a difficult time voting for someone (Republican or Democrat) that has an infidelity problem as well. I do understand that people make mistakes and I will admit that McCain's relationship with his first wife was not handled properly based on what I've read, but that's not what I'm talking about. I don't excuse infidelity in any form, but I do look at a mistake like that, if it has only happened once, in a completely different light then if it is a constant, recurring issue in an individual's life. My voting would take this into account as well.
I know there are other moral issues as well to consider. And I'm sure that there are Christian Democrats out there who would argue things such as the Iraqi War could be looked at from a moral point of view too. Although I would argue that while there may be a debatable point on whether we should have gone there, the soldiers who went are part of a voluntary military and made a choice to be in the military, while babies who are aborted do not get any choice at all. So I realize that there are many different sides to this subject.
I would really like to hear back from anyone who is interested in commenting. I am seriously interested on people's perspective on this. I would like to keep the comments though as non-heated as possible. I hope I have not come across as judgmental because to be honest, like I previously mentioned, I had never really considered this before. I eagerly await your responses.
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That is certainly one point too that I had not considered. I do think we legislate morality in a lot of ways though (murder, child abuse, etc) so I'm not sure that's a universal way of looking at it, but I'm sure there are individuals who feel strongly in that way about this. Thanks for you comment!
Well, let me put it this way: personal decisions that are not inherently detrimental to society should NEVER be legislated...this is why I am a libertarian. I believe in relatively conservative economics, though my faith in the capitalist regime has faltered heavily after seeing scumbag CEOs trample our rights. I am personally conservative in moral issues, but I don't feel it's MY duty to tell gays how they are to live, nor is it my duty as well to tell you if pot is good or bad. Prohibition proved that we can't prevent these things anyway!
I'm with you on voting morally, but it's becoming less and less easy for me to make decisions based on those criteria. Bush, IMHO, was a terrible leader these last eight years, and I still feel that I only related to him on the issue of Abortion. I am against this war, I do think gays have rights, I also feel that the drug wars are wasting time , energy , and money. I would not be considered "liberal" by any means, but the GOP has terribly screwed itself over and is now the party without a vision. Palin did worse to me as far as the reputation of the GOP, even more so than Bush. I might have voted for McCain IF he stuck to the same guns he did 15 years ago, but not anymore. He like the rest of the GOP are just politicians running on the machinated treadmill of their own failure.
I think you will find this a thought provoking read.
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/contrad
It makes some very good points on why Christians find themselves very frustrated on politics.
As for abortion, this is only still a subject for debate, because our elected congress refuses to do it's job (even though they collect a paycheck).
This country is founded on the Seperation of Church and State and that is a good thing. So that said Congress must decide on a definition of when life begins.
As it stands now it is chaos. Think any woman can abort a baby, but any man that kills a child in the womb is subject to prosecution. This is beyond morality it is absurdity.
Congress must decide even if it Hairlips both Pro lifers and Pro Choicers. It is the hard job they have sought our votes to do.
TMG
I do volunteer work for a local pro-life ministry. The director was working in pro-life ministry before Roe v. Wade.
Her take was abortion was wrong before it was legal and it is wrong after it's legal.
Rather than work on the legislative and legal end of it, this ministry works with individuals by showing love. Praying. Providing pre-natal care, etc. They also offer love and foriginess to women who have had an abortion. Jesus heals and forgives.
When I began volunteering there were four abortion clinics in our town. There is now only one. And it's not doing so well.
The building that held one former abortion clinic is now a pro-life museaum.
They were not legislated out of business. They shut down because of lack of demand for their services. Not from violent protests and bombings, but by the gentle power of God's love.
I, personally cannot vote for a "pro-choice" candidate either. It is an important issue to me. But, if there are abortions, it is because there is a demand for them. That is not the failure of the government. That is the failure of God's people to show His love properly. A large number of girls who who were in the post abortion classes were forced to have abortions by their relatives so they would not be shamed within their church. They were preacher's and deacon's daughters and did not want a single pregnancy scandel. That crushed me to hear. But it was true.
What good is a law that permits abortion if nobody wants an abortion?
Perhaps as conservatives, sometimes we put too much trust in governements and not enough in God. We don't need the laws to fix this problem, only the healing power of Jesus' love.
BDazzler, what a phenomal way of looking at it. I whole heartedly agree with what you said and the idea that the law of abortion not being relevant if no one wants one. Amazing. Sad to hear about the deacon's and preacher's daughters being forced into it. Thank you so much for your comments.
Hi, very interesting article. Have you ever read or seriously considered the arguments of the other side of the abortion issue? I'm currently struggling with the label myself. For most of my life I've always declared myself as pro-choice, however this past year has dramatically altered my view on a lot of the issues in which I previously considered set in stone. After becoming an atheist pretty much everything changed, now that I'm fairly certain there is no afterlife, the value of human life truly became immeasurable to me. It seems like the greatest crime to deprive someone of this chance, the only chance they will EVER have to experience this universe. At the same time a part of me hangs on the guilty questions I keep repeating to myself. "What if a 14 year old girl is raped and gets pregnant?" "What if delivering the baby will certainly kill the mother?" There are so many questions like this that I don't yet have answers for, I just can't yet come to a definitive conclusion about my view on the matter. All I can do is promise myself that I'll keep my mind open to the debate on both sides, and sometime soon find an answer.
When I began speaking to women who had abortions. I quit worrying about when life began, and the after life. The emotionally devistating consequences on the living were enough to make me think that it was generally a bad plan.
As far as the cases you bring up. Based on the work I've done, and the women I've spoken to, I believe that making abortion part of the rape experience simply multiplies the trauma.
When the mom's life is in danger. I know a family that chose that route as well. The woman lived. The family unit did not survive. There may not have been a good answer. I don't know.
I am convined that these legitimate issues you raise can not be fixed by governments.
Economically, the abortion industry, however, makes most of their money from abortion as birth conttrol and treats children as a disease to be treated. The industry has an economic interest in using the legitimate difficult cases you bring up to over generalize, resulting in what I have observed to be serious long term psycological harm to their patients.
That brings up another issue I'd like to discuss with you guys, especially you Daz. How do you feel about birth control? And I mean everything from condoms and the pill to early withdrawal. To me it seems like a responsible way to lessen the abortion problem, but from what I understand the Christian stance is against it.
Also, what about planning sex around ovulation? That's also a form of birth control. I mention all this because people like to have sex, and I think we're better off having sex regularly without having to worry about pregnancy, then not having sex until we're ready to have children.
Your thoughts?
Parse, I'll tackle the things you mentioned in the order you brought them up. I have considered both sides of the argument on abortion - at the issue of rape and incest is a common argument and one that does make me hesitant to agree that abortion in all cases is wrong. However, the concern I have with the baby being punished for the crime of the father tends to sway me the other way. It's certianly no easy decision for a woman to make and I really don't know how I feel one way or another on that.
But, one thing I've always been curious about is the percentage of rape and incest victims that have abortions versus the percentage of abortions for other reasons. The rape and incest argument is very commonly used when debating this issue, but is the percentage as high as other reasons? I don't honestly know the answer but I am curious about it.
I have heard about women getting abortions because their children have Down Syndrome or other such disabilities. To me, this is a type of selective breeding that really concerns me. I also have a nephew with Down's Syndrome as well and I love that boy to death and am so thrilled we have him in our life.
In South Dakota, we attempted to ban abortion, not once but twice. The rape and incest argument caused the first time to fail. The second time we tried to put those exceptions in there in order to alleviate those concerns. It still failed. Which might reinforce some of what BDazzler said about the government not being the best way to change moral problems in this country.
On your other question on birth control and such, my Christian beliefs do not prohibit me (or my wife) from using it and thus I have no issues with it. Except of course for the morning after pill which I believe is a form of abortion because the baby could already have been conceived.
Again, good thoughts from everyone!
Hmm... I just wanted to say first, that while Obama is pro-choice, for himself he had stated during one of the debates that he, himself is pro-life but that it is not for him to chose what is right for the women in question. That said, I believe that Obama finds himself living with the same moral question in which case I do believe that pro-choice is the only answer that could make sense.
Personally, I care more about the one who has life, the one who is suffering, and the one who will or would or could suffere the consequences. Like BDaz said, the emotional turmoil tells me that it is bad altogether, but I couldn't say which would be worse; a child that is abandoned and forced to live in a home where he/she may become abused, unloved and genally be given a life that sucks, or let the mother suffer and have some hope that the spirit of life that was in the child will have another chance in a different host. I dunno, all I do know is that someone suffers.
When it comes to contraceptives, or birth control of any method, if you aren't willing to take responsibility for the the actions then you shouldn't be having sex. However we all know by now that this is not the case, so I am pro birth control as well.
Personally, I do not like birth control, (unnatural anyways ie: pills) because those have consequences as well. While the medical world wants to say, it reduces your chances of certain cancers, they forgot to tell you that it also increases the chances of other cancers, ie: cervical cancer, ovarian cancer etc. plus you live with a greater risk of developing blood clots, stroke and heart disease. So having a baby might be hard, knocking on deaths door to keep from getting pregnant isn't exactly a good choice either. I guess Paul probably had it right when he said, don't have sex! lol. I dunno.
Yet I still believe that everyone should have a choice to what happens in their lives, they may effect those close to you or around you but they are decisions that effect the parties involved (abortion and birth control) while if they are forced to always have the baby, then it effects a lot more.
Who will take care of the children, where will the money come from, who is going to fit the bill if a 16 year old child is forced into an unsanitary hospital to abort a child and then she dies...was it worth it? I would be the parents of this child would change their mind and realize that the price of the one already living carries more weight than one that will live again.
Hey Parse.
When I was younger, I was pro-birth control. I never saw the diff betwen pills and early withdrawal and timing. I was even neutral on the abortion issue. Leaning against, but not adamant. Mostly it was "probaby a bad idea". In those days it was more theory than practice. I didn't understand the reality of it.
Now, I realize it was because of my desire to do what I wanted and to avoid consequences. It was an excuse to be irresponsible. I had my career. I had my plans. A child would be inconvient.
Now, I am older, and the probablity that I may not ever have a child is becoming more real each day.
As far as society is at large concerned ... I don't know. But this I can tell you about me. I was wrong. I see my neices and nephews, it causes me pain to know what I did to myself ... I made a choice. I now regret that choice.
A child is a human, not a problem. It was wrong of me to ever have thought otherwise.
From strictly a faith persepctive, it says in Psalm 127 that children are a blessing. I didn't believe it. I was wrong.
I grew up in two differing Christian groups and the only people I know actively against birth control are the conservative catholics and fundie baptists...I never learned it was wrong, more or less it's what Parse said--RESPONSIBLE!
BDaz, you said, "a child is a human not a problem. It was wrong of me to ever have thought otherwise".
What do you consider yourself? So I agree, every child is a blessing, even the grown up ones who have to make tuff decisions. :)
tkeeley - I am a fundamental Baptist and we aren't taught that birth control is wrong (I know there are lots of different variations of Baptists but wanted to point that out).
I do appreciate everything that is being said, but I'm hoping not to make this a discussion on just abortion. What I'm really interested in is how you make political decisions as a Christian and do moral issues weigh heavier than others or not...
Hey sandy! Hey SoDak ... let me answer Sandy's question and try to move the discussion back where you want it all at the same time:
"What do you consider yourself? " - Wow ... thare's a thousand ways to answer that. I'm a student. I'm a teacher. I'm a man, and yes, you're right, a child. You make the choice. You accept the consequences and you thank God for the grace. God's always there, even when I'm wrong.
So, what's a man who knows he doesn't know everything supposed to do when it comes to voting? I pick the one I think will do the least harm (note I did not say most good, I have become very cynical of all goverments and parties) and understand that I am a citizen of a bigger Kingdom.
SoDak, I understand there are differing groups. The fact that you wrote a hub I'd have been condemned to hell for writing tells me you're no fundie. You may be baptist in name, but seems like you're a much, much different breed than who I am familiar with!
In light of the second half of your previous comment, the big issues for me are always:
1) economy
2) wellbeing of our borders, not of other nations
3) environmental measures to keep it clean and efficient
4) the ability for each american to make individual choices for themselves, be it:
- abortion
- homosexuality
- schooling options
- gun possession
and the list goes on. Freedom means that you don't necessarily do everything you want, but within reason ALL moral issues not detrimental [directly] to the rest of the nation are your's to make.
tkeeley I'm not sure if that was a compliment or not (I know it was :))...thanks for your list. Are they listed in order of importance for you?
Well not in order, no. I am a firm believer in not legislating morality unless it's someting as tough as murder (removal of persons from society) or stealing (removal of goods earned morally by a rightful owner) , etc. Abortion has yet to be defined as murder, and as soon as our rather worthless government decides on it it will be easy for me to pick sides as far as legislation goes, although personally I will remain the same principally [regardless]. I personally don't think guns are even an issue, as right now they're legal and I really don't care about them. They're really the smallest ordeal we have, while millions are starving worldwide.
Hello all. From a strictly political perspective, issues such as those listed by tkeeley are things that can affect elections if they rise to the "single issue" status. The recent election revealed that none of the Republican candidates offered everything that all the Republican base was looking for. But for that matter, the same situation existed in the Democrat party as well. We have all heard the expression, "the lesser of evils" and it has become somewhat trite in today's world. But actually, there is a lot more substance to it than we give it credit for. Simply put, voting for a candidate who represents some of the things you believe in might be better than witholding your vote over a single issue. Folks who strongly believe a specific position might be wrong or immorral might acutally help elect a candidate who not only supports that position, but also others the individual might find reprehensible. Failing to vote for a candidate who partially fills your bill is like casting a vote for his or her opponant.
Well I don't follow the lesser of evils philosophy. The media has everyone convinced that there are only two parties, but the reality is that there are at least three GOOD third parties who, if enough people who I know without a doubt align with better than the corrupt Dems or Reps, would vote for any of these parties, would drag the top two aprties down lower than ever and give essentially a five-way election race....if money wasn't in it. Welcome to the twisted world of washington where money makes a man....oh wait, that's global capitalism as a whole.
I would rather be noted in life for who I am and what I've done that a label based on the income I earn...
I think that the labelling of people as pro-life or pro-choice is just another example of reducing something complex to something over-simple. Labels are generally bad as they actively work against reason. I also think it is naive to vote for a president largely on the strength of his perceived personal morality. (Often wrongly perceived, by the way). A good president is one whose policies benefit the most people and injure the fewest. A bad one is the converse.
This whole issue is a matter of world views. I watch in wonder as the talking heads banter about, on both sides as to what is right and what is wrong. on the one hand you have republicans who tend to have a general bent toward running things the way the BIBLE dictates, (that is not to say that all republicans are godly christians by any means). Then you have the democrats or liberals who tend to say; do as thou wilt, or abortion, gay marriage etc, etc. is all just fine if that is what you choose. This has been so as long as I can remember, and it will never change. You either accept, believe, and follow GOD's word as a truthfull and reliable guide from GOD himself, applicable to every human, or you reject GOD's word as such and leave the door wide open for every vain immagining man can come up with.
This is where we find ourselves. We have a society where "everyones" opinnion counts, anything goes, no absolute right and wrong, basically chaos! What if one tried to run a company that way, where everyones views and opinnions were followed, no one having final say or authority over decisions made, no set standard. you would have a chaotic free for all, just like we have now in America. How dare we as christians push GOD out of our society by voting for/or not voting at all, laws and politicians that do not see the world from GOD's perspective. All are not truely Christ's who call themselves christians. If one is truely following Christ with his or her whole heart then the choices are easy. The Bible says we will follow one master or the other. You cannot follow both. Now this does not mean that christians think they are sinless, but that we are obligated as followers of Christ to speak up for and vote for issues, policies and people who will stand and reflect GOD's opinnion on all the issues of society. The problem is that there are precious few who are willing to take a stand. And when one does take a stand one is considered to be a "radical fundamentalist." That is why we have so many, so willing to take the middle road, to try and and please unsaved society, or (what ever is popular), and GOD at the same time and it cannot work! We are trying to create a perfect society, ie, save the planet, the whales, we desire no crime, no injustice, no unfairness, no greed, all the while telling GOD he has no say in how we govern ourselves. The gaul! If you don't believe say so!, but if you do, have the guts to stand against society and say so!, on the important issues that GOD has spelled out in HIS word. GOD says HE would rather you be HOT, or cold and that if you are luke-warm HE will spew you out of HIS mouth. Our whole country has moved to the middle trying to please everyone but GOD. I grow weary of "christians" in my own life who claim to follow Jesus and do not accept all of scriptue as GOD's word. They pick and choose according to what is acceptable in popular society, and back off when it requires them to take a stand against society. But don't fear the Bible says it must happen this way. And GOD WINS!!
t.keeley says:
11 months ago
Or left wing Christians merely think the government shouldn't legislate morality and it's an individual decision...