Do I need to defend Christian/Western Nations?
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First of all I know that the majority of Muslim people are peaceful and tolerant. This article was inspired after having tried to elaborate on misconceptions of a fellow hubber and also I had a discussion earlier once with a Lebanese Christian/ Egyptian Muslim colleagues in a restaurant.
I have had mostly very positive experiences both as a student and later in my work life in US hence I feel compelled to write a hub to elaborate my point. I am usually neutral for the most part whenever the hot topic of Israel/Palestine crops up(even during the recent Israeli attacks). And as it is usual even America got dragged into the discussion and my Egyptian colleague kept going on saying things which were wrong with US. We listened for a while and unlike most Americans in my group who didn't raise there points the Lebanese Christian colleague interjected and said why do you prefer to still stay in US if everything is wrong with US and everything is right in Muslim majority countries. And at this point I also joined since my own maternal uncle who is a Doctor went to a Gulf country and the whole experience of a non Muslim person in a Muslim country seems like a nightmare. In fact I have some Muslim friends in India whose relatives work in gulf countries (except for places like Dubai and a few similar places) most of the other places even they never feel at home or intend to settle down. Where as in most of the western countries even if they have majority Christian following they allow people of other faiths to open there own religious places of worship and practice there faith openly. Anyway back to the topic we were slowly getting towards a point where I had to shed my neutral stand and had to defend the so called "superior" Islamic culture that our Egyptian colleague was trying to project. And during the discussion the Lebanese Christian colleague pointed out lots of things which I found interesting.
Here is an outline of what I find perplexing since my Lebanese Colleague has travelled/worked in some of those countries. He said that most of Islamic countries do not give Christians(or other religions) the same freedom Muslims have in there own country i.e., It seems in Egypt there are Christians who do not have as many career opportunities as Muslims(where as being a Muslim never holds one back career wise) and even for minor repairs to Churches they must apply for permission to fix their churches unlike Islamic mosques which may be repaired without permission. Here is an article which states that Coptic Christians often prefer to emigrate to western countries where they will have more freedom and equal rights.
And equal rights and freedom of religion includes in believing in whatever faith one wants to believe in. In most of the western countries one can join or leave any religion including Christianity but in Islamic countries if one ever leaves publicly then the consequences can be dangerous to the individual or even to there families.
And I have seen some people coming up with weird conspiracy theories like "Zionists" controlling and ruling the world with little to no proof in this regard. In fact sometimes inventing figures of 7 T Dollars invested by Rothschilds(who by the way are no way even close to having that kind of wealth in the first place). I wonder where the propaganda masters who want them to believe such theories will lead them to. I sincerely hope they don't take to any actions which might harm themselves and hurt the people around them.
Now I do agree Abu Ghraib/Guatanamo have spoiled the image of the US but to classify all Americans as "Sadist" is way too much. And thankfully, President Obama is taking baby steps to set right the damage caused by President Bush's tenure and hopefully America can take the moral high ground again. Although I believe US may have profit motives as much as any individual/society/nation has had in the past or will have in the future. But overall US also is one of the first country to provide relief and aid to any country or region whenever natural disasters have taken place. If one wants to find flaws then one should be balanced in finding the good points too so that overall things can be kept in a balanced perspective.
I have seen people love to hate United States but have they wondered why people are still waiting in INS offices to get immigration to United States. The simple answer is the freedoms that one gets here. Again my Lebanese colleague pointed out to us that there are cases where girls are forced to convert to Islam in countries like Egypt.
Well, after that exchange in the restaurant our senior manager(who is an American) had to intervene since it was getting a little unpleasant. Anyway I was left wondering how some people feel that others are not being "reasonable" when they themselves don't try to see things from any other point of view(but there very own personal view).
And finally even I feel that when a person is enjoying the benefits of a western nation like US and in public finds everything wrong about it, then it certainly seems contrary to what he is personally after(to immigrate and settle in US). I agree US may not be a perfect country for that matter no country is perfect but if there is any country that has ever come close to perfection(in recent history) than that is USA. I mean we have had scores of immigrants landing in US door steps every year for immigration(and it happens to be the third most populous country on Earth after China/India). This is the country where dreams can be realized and no matter what race one belongs to one can aspire for the highest position in business or government. Finally, a country's greatness can be realized when there are more people who want to get into it compared to those countries where people want to get out of it.
PS: I have edited some parts of the conversation and my reference to Egypt was only because it cropped up as the moderate muslim country. Anyway visiting Pyramids is still in my top do lists. :-)
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Comments
Thanks for the first comment. Btw did you check out the thread that inspired me to write this hub. Some people tend to believe phony chain mails without having a first hand account or the ability to see things from other perspectives. I have had a wonderful life both in India/US so far and when somebody has such gross misgivings about US then it certainly moves me to write and this article was written based on pent up feelings. Thanks for reading and commenting.
Countrywoman, I thank you for your great article. I have the same problems with my Slavic people especially some Ukraine friends. They are specializing in hating America. But still they do not want to go to Spain. In the other hand my friends love America.
You lost me when you started in on Bush. Obama is a socialist and is bankrupting this country to feed his own selfish agenda. By the way, he is forcing our country onto Israel when we should all let the Palestine nation and Israel decide this amongst themselves and the surrounding communities. I am not a Bush apologist, but I refuse to accept the fact that Obama is the great savior. READ the constitution of the great land and see how things are going. Started by Bush with the Patriot Act and being finished up by Obama. It was our lacking of putting our foot on the throat of the radical Islamic terrorist's since the 90's, that led us into this mess. I saw for myself how the "wonderful people of Iraq" treated those that were weaker. Kuwait sound familiar. We are turning into a country of apologists instead of defending ourselves, being proud of being an American and realizing we do more for others than any other country. Like you said, we are tolerant here. But we've become weak trying to appease those that want to kill us. The fact that you can have a conversation in a restaurant and only having the manager come over instead of the authorities says alot. I wish this world for peace, but peace only comes in this world of religion and intolerance to those with the bigger stick and the guts willing to use it. Thank you for writing a good piece and I'm sorry about the soap box but feel I've been sitting on this for way to long. Keep up the good work and enjoy a great week.
Vladimir- I am glad you liked this article. Some people forget to count there own blessings(in free societies) and dwell on other things to belittle because they now have the luxury to do so.
Ande- I understand erosion of privacy by patriot and similar other things have diluted the basic charter of American constitution but the so called "enhanced" interrogation techniques/intruding on other countries(more importantly on false pretexts) work as the recruiting tools for the extremist organizations like Al Qaeda. Violence only begets violence please give peace a chance. I am sure slowly the "hatred" support base of those organizations will get diluted eventually in the long run. Anyway each person has a different take and btw I humbly would like to disagree that Obama is a "socialist" in fact it was Bush who initiated the bailouts.
Thanks everyone for stopping by and commenting. Hope you all have a wonderful weekend.
CW: I dislike when people who immigrate to the USA put down the country where they are building life or have opportunities they didn't in their own country. Mom who immigrated to the USA back in 1962 along with me and sis, always used to say, "thank God for NY and the USA" -she loved NY :). No country is perfect because we humans are not perfect, we are still evolving. And... I see the world as ours, we are children of the universe, but that's my ideology, not practical for everyone.
Enjoyed reading your hub, as always you make me stop and think, and often appreciate what I have.
America has made its share of mistakes, but I believe it has done far more good than harm in the world. I also believe President Obama is dedicated to return fairness to American foriegn policy. People that hate American still want to live here to enjoy the lifestye; it's as simple as that. They want the comfort of what all this evil brings and still be righteous enough to rail against it.
I agree with Pete Maida as America has done more good than harm in the world. Generally speaking, people who love criticising the act of others are those who do not do anything at all. It's better to do something and make mistakes rather than showing righteousness and curbing actions especially when the situation demands a lot more than mere words. I loved that immigration thing you brought up. That's exactly what I tell people when I hear them using offensive language about US..... "Why are you still here? Go back to your country if you love your home land so much." Another great hub CW.
You have presented both sides fairly. It is a valid question to ask why people are quequing in long lines to go to America which is such a terrible place to live in. What answer can they give? Why dont they return if America is so bad? They cannot answer or they give a lame answer. You can deduce from the answer.
There is no place in this world where is everything perfect. Each country has it´s own karma and people living in it are learning through good and bad deeds and beliefs. There is no ultimate good nor ultimate evil expressed through the politic of any country. We all learn and have to learn - tolerance.
Thanks for this Hub, ads cl.
VioletSun- I agree no nation is perfect but when I hear some these folks keep harping on the "superior" Islamic societies and blaming hollywood/American culture to be corrupting the world then I feel sort of defensive too since now even I am a part of this country. I agree we should try to make the best of the bargain where ever we are.
Pete- That is so true people want US life style but at the same time deride the country which gives them this life style. Well I do think getting less involved in the world and looking inwards for now would be better in these times for US but then I am not a policy maker. As much as I find flaws in some of the American policies I still love this country as much as I love my country India hence I take strongly if someone tries to bad mouth America.
Anjali- There is a Hindi saying: Jis thali mein kathe hai usse mein ched nahi karna chahiye (never make a hole in the plate that is feeding you). I feel some people who have no first hand knowledge or others who are too much wrapped up in there personal views tend to have many misconceptions.
Thanks everyone for stopping by and commenting.
CW: Its good to see we are expressing the same sentiment but with different words. :)
I am a quarter Syrian, so I can agree with some of the things your Lebanese colleague was saying. Muslims do treat Christians and Jews as people of the book, but sometimes these groups are not afforded all the same opportunities of Muslims. At the turn of the twentieth century my ancestors did immigrate from Syria to the US because they felt they would have more equality in business and to practice their religion since they were Christians.
What does bother me a little bit is the Zionist conspiracy and the large amounts of money that are poured into this to purport this propaganda. I heard about a lady who recently took all of her savings from work to only go on a Bible study to Israel. During her time there they did not even go to see any of the historical sites, but they simply stayed in the building and had a Bible study meeting.
It is great people love the Bible and enjoy visiting Israel, but I still think we are a little too strong in our unflinching support of every action this nation puts forth. Queen Noor's biography Leap Faith is a good read because she does delineate how there is a strong Jewish lobby in Washington, which often result in the US supporting Israel more than it ought too. I am still slightly disturbed by Israel's treatment of the Palestinian population, but this is not always a popular comment with many people of a Zionist bent. I will share it anyway :).
What a nice hub. Obama is a man of peace hence his reaching out to different countries. Leadership is all about tolerant. This is what he is exhibiting by reminding other countries that eye for eye and teeth for teeth would leave everyone blind and toothless.
I also wanted to add that anyone who says you lost them at Obama was just looking for an opportunity to get up on their soap box. The man wins more of my respect each day for his ability to try and make things work more efficiently in Washington, and those who did not vote for him are just a little upset that their guy in not in office. Sorry, but I just had to add that :).
Thanks for a thought provoking Hub, Countrywoman.
One of us (Pat) is American, but resident in UK. We often hear people say 'Americans think such and such' and need to remind them: America is a big country and you can find any opinion that you want to agree with or disagree with.
As an immigrant, Pat agrees that is is odd to hear people saying negative things about a country they have chosen to live in!
Here in the UK there has been a lot of publicity in the right-wing press and TV commentary about Muslim extremists. We always say to anyone who brings this up in conversation, 'Do you think all Muslims are extremists? Do you think all Christians are extremists?'
Someone commented above that most people just talk about these issues and do nothing!
You bring up a very good point Patricia. Interestingly I know many native born Americans who protest about American actions more than immigrants. One of the freedoms about being able to live in the US, or any western country for that matter, is the right to speak for or against many policies. Interestingly many journalists and bloggers in countries such as Syria and Iran are imprisoned for doing just that, so whereas I may not agree with the strong anti-American sentiments of people living in this country, at least they do have the freedom to express those opinions.
I forget to mention, in my comment that I found excellent book by Dinesh D'Souza: What's so great about Christianity, which even non Christian enjoy.
What a refreshing, truthful, and balanced treatment of this issue. I tend to avoid religious and political hubs because they usually just depress me - but yours has done quite the opposite.
I grew up in a moderate Islamic country and am now living in the United States. I agree with much of what you say here. Thank you for being the voice of reason.
Einron- That's what I also don't understand. When somebody is living in a isolated foreign environment with no first hand account I can still have empathy for there lack of understanding but when someone who is living and enjoying the freedoms of this country tries to rail against it then that surprises me. I mean why doesn't he/she absorb anything from his/her own personal observations/experience instead of continuing to believe on third party accounts.
Tatjana- I agree no country is perfect but some people have delusions of "superior" culture hence I felt strong about defending the things I feel is right about western societies. Btw thanks as always for the "click" love. ;)
VioletSun- I always felt a connection in your hubs(maybe we do think alike although you are light years of ahead of me in your spirituality). I always find your hubs are so uplifting and peaceful. I have to visit your hub and couple of other hubs too. I have been visiting forums these days more often. Thanks for revisiting to elaborate.
SweetiePie- The "Zionist" conspiracy mentioned in the thread seemed more Anti Semitic. It is some sort of conspiracy where Rothchild family(Jews) are planning to overtake the world sort of blah blah. Anyway I would love to read about so many view points and Queen Noor's seems like a good read. Even I admire President Obama for his ability to try to "talk" to everyone instead of the hard line approach preferred earlier.
Thanks everyone for visiting and commenting.
Sweetiepie.. As politely as i can manage this, did you really say obama is trying to make things more efficient in washington? Committing to 10 trillion in spending over the next decade is not exactly efficient. This is a thought provoking article and it is well written, but a large part of why America is sometimes viewed unfavorably is because we have been the world's superpower economically and militarily. It is our exceptionalism that has from time to time made us a target. America bashing has reached epic levels, now the media may try to hang that around GW's neck but we we've been slammed overseas for decades. Just my nickel worth. Good hub
Jimmy yes I did say that and stand behind my intelligent comment. Too bad you were trying to make me look silly for saying this, but the stimulus package is already doing more good than harm. To me it sounds like you are just upset that Obama won, which is why people often use emotional and slightly disparaging comments to try and make Democrats look less than enlightened. It was the last administration that got us into this mess by the way.
Countrywomen,
Yes it sounds like the Zionist conspiracy theory you speak is a little silly, but at the same time it is a concern some Americans are big supporters of the Zionists, which does have its bias and does not always play fair. Even you yourself expressed your concerns regarding this on a particular hub that was anti-Palestinian, and which advocated ethnic cleansing.
Basically what Queen Noor pointed out in her book is that there is a strong Jewish lobby in Washington, which is very influential when it comes to the US policies regarding Israel. Jewish Americans are often entrepreneurs and have a great deal of money, which enables them to have their voices heard more often in Washington. Arab Americans and other people of Middle Eastern descent are from a wider variety of groups, and do not always have the economic ties needed to have their voices heard in the lobby. Israel and the US have such a tight relationship that they are the only two countries beside Greenland that voted in the UN to continue the embargo on Cuba.
I believe in the view of being the most balanced that I can be when it comes to the Middle East. There are good and bad things when it comes to the Middle East, just as with any place on earth. The human right records do leave something to be desired in many Middle Eastern countries, but people are working towards bunking that trend.
Yes there are some extreme things that Muslims may do in the Middle East, but extremist Israeli Jews and extremist Christians also have their share in the blame game. I am just endeavoring to take the most objective and least biased stance on this issue.
Hi..nice hub..i would just like to say that things u do do come around...like a boomerang..that what happened n is happening to US;;It is not a saint nation..has done its share of atrocities during the cold war era...n now wasting billions on Afghanistan n Pakistan..(without restrictions n india tag)..not giving us Indians any peace of mind..Bush was not that bad either..may b the economy worsened under him but lots of good deed he did for many..v tend to forget good deeds n only remember the bad...
I realized I said Greenland voted with Israel and the US on keeping the embargo on Cuba, but I meant Palau. Just wanted to correct that.
Philipo- Yes, President Obama is tough (against the Taliban/Al Qaeda in Afghanistan/Pakistan) and yet at the same time soft in his approach towards middle east. He is embarking on a historic trip to mend the relations there.
2Patricias- Yes that was one of the core points i.e., not to bad mouth the country one chooses to settle down. It is in fact not even conducive to raise our children to have such misgivings in our adopted country. And at the same time I do feel we should be proud of our heritage and pass some of our culture to the next generation. I mean a healthy respect for both our background and the country we adopt seems to be most appropriate.
Vladimir- Thanks for the reference. I agree every religion should try to look at other religions and understand that we are humans first before our religious affiliations.
Thanks everyone for stopping by and commenting.
Aya- Thanks for calling me the "voice of reason" (in fact Christoph Reilly also said something similar earlier). Although it feels good but I am just an ordinary woman trying to make sense of so many things around me. I am really glad that you liked this hub.
Jimmy- Please let us give the man a chance. President Obama has a lot on his plate and he needs all the support we can give him.
SweetiePie- Thanks for elaborating and also mentioning about US world view vis a vis other countries. You always make such educated comments. I really learn something from your comments. It is such balanced views that the world needs now more than ever.
Spicegal- I know some of us tend to blame Mr.Bush for the ills but he was the President who ordered the invasion of a country on a false pretext hence the man can't be totally exonerated. Also Pakistan is a nuclear nation and US is highly concerned with the safety of these arsenals hence trying to have an active role in wiping out the extremist elements in Pakistan. Let us see how the future unfolds. Hopefully in a few years from now the world would be a safer place.
Thanks everyone for stopping by and commenting.
I did want to say though you did a good job of illustrating some of the difficulties that Christians have in Egypt. That is an issue that many are concerned about, and the sites that you shared were very informative. I believe everyone should have the right to convert to whatever religion they wish, and it is a shame that Christians are almost encouraged to convert to Islam, but that parents of Muslims that convert to Christianity say they would kill their own children. One friend is married to an Iranian man who moved to the US, and we have discussed many of the issues going on in that region.
I liked her analogy about how the Middle East is going through the same sort of turmoil that Europe experienced during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance regarding the wars over religion. I believe a couple of hundred years from now people will have bored with these feuds over religion, but it will take some time to get to that point.
wow! Informative...interesting.
Great hub, and at first I was doubtful. Vladimir, I live in Spain and was once a U.S. citizen. I love Spain, and I do not "hate" the U.S. I do criticize the policies that often are formulated there, and I do watch warily the trend to make everything in the U.S. conform with the bible. I have often to remind other expats here in Spain that they moved here for a reason, and if that reason no longer exists, then either accept Spain for what it is or find another home where you will be happier. That's a harse lesson I learned after Viet Nam when people I knew since childhood were calling me a baby killer and spat on me for serving my country.
I also disliked that I was lied to by my government and saw many young men, and some young women too, die for that lie. I am sure that in Russia there was much anger over the fiasco in Afghanistan, and people felt lied to over there. All governments lie, but you are supposed to have checks and balances here to keep you from being lie to and going to war for false pretenses. Iraq in particular was a completely unnecessary war that has brought down the reputation of the U.S. in so many nations that otherwise would be at your side in this struggle against terrorism. We in Spain stood by you until the truth of enhanced interrogations became known, and the pictures of atrocities became known. It was an easy argument after that to leave to coalition G.W. Bush tried to create because we were being attacked because the U.S. lied to the world.
Very good writing. I have some dear friends from Iran and they are always amazed at the freedoms we have here. This woman was beaten near to death for having inappropriate books in her house. She came here when a death sentence was placed on her head when she began to inquire of other religions. Her cousin here has made millions on her Persian rug store yet she is always saying how horrible America is and she wished we would all die. Where would she get her millions then? My friend was shocked and saddened. To this day (10 years later) she is still very saddened at people's narrowminded stance.
SweetiePie- "I believe a couple of hundred years from now people will have bored with these feuds over religion" Amen. You said it and I hope your words come true. I have a neighbor who feels my philosophy of "live and let live" is some kind of "new age" stuff. Anyway the older a person gets the tougher to deal and I have just learned to appreciate the good things about her.
Cobraski- Thanks for stopping by and finding this useful.
Ivan- I am sure it must feel terrible to the soldiers who put there lives on the line and then to find out they have been lied to participate in a cause that isn't what it is made out to be. I am glad you like Spain. I wish one day I get to visit Europe.
RGraf- Yes indeed it is so sad when people don't appreciate the freedoms and criticize unnecessarily without a valid reason. My own maternal uncle went to a conservative Gulf country and his bad experiences there I will discuss some other time. I wish people don't abuse the freedoms given in this country to bad mouth it in public. It actually makes it more difficult for them to assimilate into a country that one has chosen to reside.
Thanks everybody for stopping by and commenting.
Countrywomen.
Very well written article. Keep going.
God bless!
There is nothing about sounding New Age that is bad to me, and many times people make disparaging comments towards me for my tastes. Once I met a guy at a library and we ended up hanging out for a few hours, and he was asking me all sorts of questions. When I told him I liked U2 he lost it because in his mind Bono is a Communist for helping people in poor African countries.
Even now people are throwing fits and accusing Obama of being an outright socialist, when some very liberal people such as Bill Maher have gone on the record stating that the president is too moderate. I have learned every group has a different opinion, and meeting the desires of these different factions is nearly are impossible. One older lady I talked to actually is more open minded about the live and let live philosophy than some younger people I know, but other women her age often make odd comments to her about it.
My paternal grandpa was mostly Native American and so was his brother. My grandpa was always a very tolerant man and told me how he respected the work of Dr. Martin Luther King, but my great uncle was prejudiced. Some people have always been stuck in their ways, but the unfortunate thing is with age people are more likely to become so with age.
Right now we have freedom of religion in most Western countries, but that came at a hard fought price. On the scale of millennia, a hundred years aren't that big a deal. And in Russia religious freedom is still not very good - just one example. In fact, in Italy it's still very difficult to not be Catholic. In the US it's difficult to be atheist. Etc. I know these are different: you are free to believe in something else - but that's not much comfort if you loose your job over your religion - and yes that happens.
spirituality,
It is illegal for anyone in the US to fire someone because of their believes, so you should do some research about this if you were unfairly discriminated against. Employers are breaking the law to fire someone just because of religion.
SweetiePie's got it right, as with all y'all here.
As my host is an American, I'll say this...
I may not agree with you, but I agree with your right to believe. ;)
It's so silly...so darn silly..that blood has been shed over who has the better imaginary friend. ;)
I kid. And digress.
Awesome, as always.
I think sometimes in discussions with people, we need to watch out not to make a big thing out of ideas that are actually stereotypes or just bad examples. All countries, religions, etc. have some positive and negative aspects and most people are good people. I think it is those in positions of power that are a danger to us all - the power is the trouble no matter what they call themselves.
This is a complicated topic of course: religion is an instrument of oppression for some, and for others it is a blessing. Maybe it is like television in that sense :-) --
you can poison your mind with television, but you can also enlighten yourself in many ways. Like so many things, answering a question like "Should religion be saved at all?" is a difficult one to answer...
You have Republicans and Democrats and the war will never end there. Somehow Bush got to be Czar for awhile,no one could put a stop to him and if Obama would get half that chance I am sure he would do his best to do the right and fair things. I am white, would have never in a million years believed we would have a black president and many are against him souly for that reason, I wish they would remember he is just as much white, and all men have the same red blood. I think he can feel for the needy more than any president we have ever had in many years. I went out immediately to get my vote in for this man and I feel so sure he can run a magnificent race if our high power players do not stand on his heels. He certainly can't do any worse. America is a wonderful place but it is becoming more corrupt by the year, I only wish someone would clean house and make lobbying unlawful. That's the only thing that will get things in order, and when the crooks in government get thrown in prisons,which they should egually as any other crook, it should be with the rest of the crooks, not a resort with luxuries! Courtesy tax payer's money!
It is un-islamic to force a person to join ISLAM,
You should accept it by your heart.
marisuewrites says:
7 months ago
I always find your views enlightening. In America, it is easy to forget or not understand the way the Middle East and other countries look at us. I am grateful for our freedoms here, but realize our work in perfecting the concept of freedom and respect for differences has barely begun.
We are making progress, but even on HubPages I witness harsh criticism for those who think differently than a hubber's article or the topic of discussion in a forum.
A simple question: Can't we all just get along? was uttered by a man wrongfully abused by the police...but it deserves repeating.
Why can't we all just let be and get along? My wish for the world...peace and understanding. good job and thought-provoking, countrywomen!!!