Do You Feel Bush’s Torture was Justified?

The MoveOn organization sent a request stating: “Can you sign our petition to Attorney General Eric Holder asking him to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the torture program?” Forwarding this on with my added two cents worth, a few, whom I respect tremendously, returned well thought out opposing arguments essentially insinuating my ignorance. They said that what we did was less torturous than what the enemy does and thus our actions were “not only justified, but mandatory”.

How do you feel?

Since there are always at least two sides to every issue, let me present both here – quoting from the responses received to preserve the integrity of their opinions. Perhaps the insights and beliefs you add, can more accurately help us all gauge which directions we, as citizens of not only the United States, but citizens of the world, ought to take.

As I wrote in “BEGIN WITHIN and SPEAK OUT against inhumanities”, I long for a day when we can all rise above revenge and war or atrocities against fellow human beings. Within me, there is a struggle however. I know that no wishing in the world can change the power the Taliban and Al'Quida are gaining. Wishing won't save the oppressed in the East from Sharia Law, nor reason with those who train children to believe that our free way of life is actually the enemy. It is too late to wish that our leader at the time hadn’t bought into revenge or their goals of diminishing our lifestyle by hurting our economy.

Yet what separates us from them if we stoop to the same medieval tactics of torture? The ACLU wrote (National Security - see sidebar): “Torture is Wrong, Illegal and Un-American - For sixty years, the United States has led the fight against torture around the world. The U.S. not only signed but helped to draft the international treaties and laws that banned torture after the atrocities of WWII. The U.S. spoke out against inhumane treatment of prisoners and offered refuge to victims of atrocities perpetrated by other governments. Now, betraying a long, proud tradition of humane detention and interrogation practices, the U.S. is using torture.”

This month (April 2009), four memos were released on the prisoner interrogations written by George W. Bush’s Justice Department. The New York Times editorial was entitled: “The Torturers’ Manifesto” adding that to read them is to take a journey into depravity. “Their language is the precise bureaucratese favored by dungeon masters throughout history. They detail how to fashion a collar for slamming a prisoner against a wall, exactly how many days he can be kept without sleep (11), and what, specifically, he should be told before being locked in a box with an insect — all to stop just short of having a jury decide that these acts violate the laws against torture and abusive treatment of prisoners.”

Justice Department Releases Bush Administration Torture Memos (4/16/2009) "We have to look back before we can move forward as a nation. When crimes have been committed, the American legal system demands accountability. President Obama's assertion that there should not be prosecutions of government officials who may have committed crimes before a thorough investigation has been carried out is simply untenable.

Enforcing the nation's laws should not be a political decision. These memos provide yet more incontrovertible evidence that Bush administration officials at the highest level of government authorized and gave legal blessings to acts of torture that violate domestic and international law," said Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU. "There can be no more excuses for putting off criminal investigations of officials who authorized torture, lawyers who justified it and interrogators who broke the law. No one is above the law, and the law must be equally enforced. Accountability is necessary for any functioning democracy and for restoring America's reputation at home and abroad."

In one response I received, my friend asks, “What is torture? Who defined it? Is it ever justified? Just curious!

Our enemies for over 200 years are clearly the experts at committing brutal torture, not us They have no hesitation in cutting off a tongue or finger; pulling out finger nails; stoning a young girl to death for wearing jeans; burning one’s eyes out with a cigarette; dropping you to the ground from 30 ft, just enough to break numerous bones and rupture internal organs; murdering your spouse or child as you look on and beg for mercy; hanging you from meat hooks for days and weeks; connecting you to a car battery every few minutes. Now this is torture - what we do to our prisoners is a picnic compared to what our brave men & women in military as well as innocent US civilians have endured at the hands of these barbaric, godless animals who’s entire motivation is hatred & 73 potential virgins. They are living in the 13^th century – you cannot reason w/ these maniacs or talk them into liking us. They are born & bred to kill everyone that does not follow their perverted view of Islam – period!!

Are you familiar with how they treat our people when captured, even though they are completely innocent as in the case of journalist Daniel Pearl just to name 1 out of hundreds? There is nothing more brutal & barbaric than a living person being beheaded on video w/ a dull knife blade while gurgling for a last gasp of air as the killers praise God for their good deed. This is where your outrage should be directed – No? They were doing this to other human beings long before GW Bush or Cheney showed up. This is why the MoveOn, Liberal Democrat argument holds no weight – their view of the real world, of history & our enemies is preposterous, distorted, naive & very dangerous for every American!!

The only thing these animals respect is power & killing – nothing else gets their attention – they will not stop hating and murdering innocents, even those in their own religion and in their own societies just because a few geniuses at Moveon.org have effectively neutered our country & claim that we are the sole purveyors of evil in this world. It is an asinine assertion and position to take with all due respect!!”

I don’t believe anyone has suggested that we are the sole purveyors of evil in this world but he raises valid questions don’t you think? Where exactly is the line of how much we ought to tolerate before joining in and “doing unto others as they have done unto us”? My friend continued saying, “It is simply human nature – there’s no way around it except to fight fire w/ fire & kill your enemies before they can kill, torture & terrorize you & your loved ones. Hence, from my perspective, “torturing” known killers & terrorists in order to gain useful information is not only justified, but it is mandatory if it could save even 1 innocent life!!”

Another acquaintance brings up the same points: “We will not be signing the petition. Please try to understand that no matter how much people try to sugar coat it or bury their heads in the sand due to denial, radical Muslims are at war with the U.S. (the great Satan).

Our interrogation methods haven't killed anyone, but they may have extracted information that saved many thousands of lives and prevented terrorist acts. In fact, it might have saved your life by preventing a bombing at a mall or other building. Stop and think, what have the racial Muslims done to our prisoners? Behead them on camera and broadcast the video to the world! Our treatment is humane in relation to theirs.

The objective of radical Islam is to conquer the Christian nations and convert them to Islam at any price. When you are on your knees with a sword over your head demanding that you submit to Islam or comply with Sharia law as a woman, are you going to worry about how we treated the terrorists?

I intend to fight on your behalf. I am smart enough to know that we are at war and it's not time to show weakness or surrender to the Muslim nations. I sincerely believe that at some point in the future, exteme liberals will come to their senses and beg someone to save them from the savagery that is coming to our shores.”

Well, they have actually killed people but is the mercy upon which our entire country founded really “weakness”? Did we write the Constitution of the United States and its amendments thinking that we would agree on them and abide only if not confronted by an enemy who believed in less respective rules? What was done has been stated clearly, “Although, pursuant the Senate's reservation, United States obligations under Article 16 extend to cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States,"

Are we not leaders fighting to defend a way of life that rises above medieval beliefs?

Are we not fighting for democracy that in part is defined as “the principles of social equality and respect for the individual”?

Is it OK to stoop to their level and assume that all actions are justified as long as it’s in an attempt to preserve our own community?

Perhaps it is justified. Mohammed himself was forced to take up defensive, military arms after 13 years of violent persecutions at the hands of barbaric Arabs - not for himself, but for the atrocities being committed against his fellow men and women. As written in “Some Answered Questions” (first published in 1908 in Britain): “Muhammad himself, after the most extreme persecutions by the Quraishites, who finally resolved to kill him, fled to Madina in the middle of the night. Yet even then, his enemies did not cease their persecutions, but pursued him to Madina, and his disciples even to Abyssinia.

These Arab tribes were in the lowest depths of savagery and barbarism, and in comparison with them the savages of Africa and wild Indians of America were as advanced as a Plato. The savages of America do not bury their children alive as these Arabs did their daughters, glorying in it as being an honorable thing to do. Thus many of the men would threaten their wives, saying, “If a daughter is born to you, I will kill you.” Even down to the present time, the Arabs hate their daughters. Further, a man was permitted to take a thousand women, and most husbands had more than ten wives in their household. When these tribes made war, the one which was victorious would take the women and children of the vanquished tribe captive, and treat them as slaves.

When a man who had ten wives died, the sons of these women took possession of each other’s mothers; and if one of the sons threw his mantle over the head of his father’s wife and cried out, “This woman is my lawful property,’ at once the unfortunate woman became his prisoner and slave. He could do whatever he wished with her. He could kill her, imprison her in a well, or beat, curse, and torture her until death released her. According to the Arab habits and customs, he was her master… Moreover, the means by which these Arab tribes lived consisted in pillage and robbery, so that they were perpetually engaged in fighting and war, killing one another, plundering and devastating each other’s property, and capturing women and children, whom they would sell to strangers.

Muhammad was reared among these tribes, and after enduring thirteen years of persecution from them, he fled. But this people did not cease to oppress; they united to exterminate him and all his followers. It was under such circumstances that Muhammad was forced to take up arms… “

I don’t believe the question is whether these barbarians are still committing atrocities. Even before 9/11, I joined a group petitioning in an attempt to help the women of Afghanistan (until we received threats on our own lives if we continued). I also don’t believe there is any question about protecting our own, nor whether or not we ought to be directing blame for 9/11 at the perpetrators.

The question I raise is that if we are to ignore laws that all civilized nations agree upon as what defines atrocities to our fellow human beings and are wrongful acts - what differentiates us from the barbaric Arabs? We are not fighting on our own turf in defense. Nor are we pooling all our resources to prevent another attack here in America. We are not “fleeing” but rather, aggressively fighting in their country.

The premise is that we want them to achieve a democratic society. For that to happen, must we not show them what democracy and a more humane existence are?