Do You Really Want National Health-Care?
78What The New HealthCare Will Do To You
Do you know anyone that has traveled from America to another country for health-care that wasn't fraudulent? I'm not talking about plastic surgery, I mean non-elective medical care. Yet people of other countries come to the good old USA to get the best care in the world. Why do they come here when they have medical care in their own country?
The answer is quite simple, we have better everything here. Don't argue with me, the world knows this. Every country that has government controlled health care does less Research & Development to develop new anything. What is important for all Americans to know is; what does this health-care bill really say and what does it mean to each of us? Why does the President want to push all major bills through Congress so quickly? This one is really easy to answer. If you don't read the bill and you vote with your party, PASSED! With enough votes to do this, you can't lose. Want to know something that's in the bill? This comes courtesy of the Heritage Foundation. "on page 425 is a provision called "End of Life Counseling". If this bill goes through, all seniors (people on social security) will have to start this counseling. It will start immediately when the bill goes through. All social security receivers will have to meet with a "counselor", every five years. If before your five years are up, you contract a serious illness, have to go into a nursing home, and then you will have to meet with the "counselor" sooner. It is to prepare you for the fact that you are going to have to die (not much for you in the way of health care, according to them). "Brave New World." This will add 37,000 counselor positions to the government payroll and I can't imagine how many office position's will be needed. That's part of the Obama plan for the government to control everything. Still the bill goes farther. Again I credit The Heritage Foundation. "It also reported that yes, you can keep your private health care just like Obama says, but, again, there is a provision that all private health insurance companies, once the bill is enacted, cannot take on any new customers. Hence, the demise of private insurance!!! Obama came out yesterday and said he did not know this was in the bill. Easy way out when you let the Pelosi’s of the world write this sort of pathetic crap!" Are you elderly, handicapped, have parent's or grandparents that fit into the above category? Is this the way you want yourself or your loved ones to be treated?
Is your insurance really that bad? Not according to the poll's. We must fight against our President, I never thought I would ever say that. But I am an American and I see a President and a Congress trying to change it.
PrintShare it! — Rate it: up down flag this hub
Comments
Well done. I also tell people since medicare will go broke in about 2 years, why not fix that mess first? Show us you know what you are doing. Of course they can't fix the Medicare mess because they don't know how and they created the Medicare mess in the first place...but that is another story.
The most disconcerting thing for me is that the bill would drive privately owned companies (health insurance companies) out of business. Never would I have imagined that our country would do something like this.
Proponents are saying "oh, don't worry, you can keep your health insurance plan." And according to the bill you certainly can (you might face a penalty fee) but irregardless, private health insurance companies will eventually cease to exist. Thus, you'll no longer have a private plan.
In addition to this, I was reading through some of the bill yesterday and I found a sub-section titled: "leveling the playing field" or something to that effect. Since when was that an appropriate term for proposed legislation? I've read hundreds of bills and never read a colloquial term like that. That statement referring to leveling the playing field with the government health insurance plan and privately held plans.
Once the government has control of the major part of healthcare or health inurance-- how easy will it be to amend it to an even worse scenario?
The thing that concerns many people is the RUSH to push this through while no one knows what they are approving.
If all of the senators and congresspersons were willing to personally sign on and dump their own current plan, it might be worth looking at.
Living in a state with limited medical care, overbearing laws in favor of modern medicine, the answer is a resounding NO! Perscription drugs kill more than their fair share of people each year the way it is. Do we really need rationing and office workers looking at paperwork to make decisions? I would rather be without health insurance and hospitals than to see the current plan in effect.
As an Australian, I wouldn't come to America for health care if you paid me. I doubt whether anyone from Scandinavia would either.
Tom T, At least you understand. They do have a clue to what they're doing, it's what Obama wants. Everything is designed to make us dependent on the government.
girly_girl09, Obama doesn't care, he is a communist that wants to take over. This is all a stolen plan to make people love him, then go into action. Take over the money supply, take over the companies, take over health-care and more. When the people have nothing but the government to turn to, where else will they go?
Rochelle Frank, It is all about taking over. Obama doesn't have a clue about how to run anything, never has. But being in control is all he is interested in. Pelosi, Frank, Dodd and other's, wait.... they're all Democrat's! That's why I changed party's.
Harvey-kudos to you and your hub! It is well written and makes a lot of sense in a senseless world. Thanks.
Ivorwen, Keep pencil pushers away from decision's on health-care. I like my insurance dompany and the system. I get what I pay for. That's the American way. Be compassionate when possible, but don't kill yourself doing it.
Marisa Wright.
Don't fool yourself. People come here from all over the world, if they can afford it. We have the best doctor's, hospital's, equipment and back-up personnel. Sorry Aussie, we are "THE BEST!"
rsmallory, Thanks much. The longer the bill is held up, the more people hate it. A few short years ago Obama asked; why do we have to vote so quickly, there is no time to read it."
He had a lot more than over night to read it.
"We have the best doctor's, hospital's, equipment and back-up personnel." Well, with all those random greengrocers' apostrophes, your education system needs looking at....
I don't think America's health system is "the best". Perhaps for the top 0.1% of the population, who can pay anything, it is. Although an awful lot of people come to the UK for treatment too, in the private hospitals we have here.
A system where people are bankrupted by medical bills (60% of American bankruptcies) and people don't get broken bones set because they can't afford it, isn't "the best" by any stretch of the imagination.
The UK has the NHS. You are also perfectly free to have private health insurance, or pay for private health care as you go along.
Plants and Oils,
Everything is great health-care wise across the pond. I have cousin's in London and here is part of a conversation I had with one. "My daughter, Jo needs surgery." "When is she going to have it?" "Around six month's from now." "Why is she waiting?" "The way it works here is, you wait your turn." "Can she wait that long?" "We think so."
Doesn't the above sound great? That's much better than here. I went to my surgeon and he confirmed that I needed surgery. A week later I was home from a successful surgery. I guess that's equality.
People with money go to England because their country has poor care. Americans stay here for their care. England has good pharma companies, too bad they no longer do much R&D.
Did you know that 15% of your doctor's are now trained in India and Pakistan?
Your "cousin's" in London - I call bullshit. There is no 6 month wait for anything remotely serious for children.
We spend half as much as you do in the USA, and we live longer.
No B.S, she wasn't a child at the time, she was at Cambridge. So according to you adult's can wait six months.
You spend less than us because you aren't allowed to get certain care, after you reach 59.
I guess I'll grant you 78.8% to 78.1% but take into account military deaths and murder rates. I'm not proud of the latter.
No-one waits 6 months on the NHS for anything remotely urgent.
And there is no "aren't allowed certain care after you reach 59". It doesn't work like that. Even with, say, NHS-funded IVF it's up to local trusts what the age limit it.
Plants and Oils, I didn't say it was urgent but in the good old USA you can still get it anytime. Question: Do you have dentist's there?
Yes, we do indeed have dentists. I've reached the grand old age of 32 with perfectly healthy teeth, no fillings, and appointments twice yearly.
Where did you get that 59 year old cut-off idea?
In the USA, large numbers of people can't get health care "anytime". They can't get it at all.
Harvey your dialogue with Plants Oils is quite interesting and maybe Englans is not so bad, as for doctors from Mid east, it seem we have some as well as a large number of asians and South Americans. SW Utah. Health care may need fixing, but not forced on Americans regardless of what is in it. We do need Doctors and that is what my Health Care Solutions is about.
Plants and Oil, I beg to differ with you. Any American (even illegal aliens) can go to an Emergency Room at a community hospital. They will be treated, even if they can't pay. I think you are listening to our wonderful President. He's a communist!
greatAmerican, Before you do anything else, you must change the tort laws or nothing will matter. Obama's plan will have LESS people wanting to become doctor's. I know many doctor's and that is what they all say.
A friend is trying to get the Republican nomination for the Senate, in Texas. You will love his platform. If you wish, try www.gregsenate2012@verizon.net
What are you talking about? we have the worst health care system in the world! have you ever been in an emergency room? I have, 7 times in the past 10 years. American doctors are only capable of prescribing Tylenol or Vicodin for everything and anything. Then they send you home without even taking X-Rays after you broke your ribs.
My best friend was misdiagnosed last year by 3 different doctors, they recommended removing her uterus. She then decided to go to Mexico and get the opinion of a real doctor. She didn't have cancer! how about that?? now she is happy and healthy.
I don't know if Obama's plan is right or wrong but I do know for a fact that American doctors are incompetent!!
I have lived in England and have traveled throughout Europe ... have had emergency treatment in England and Germany and had less wait time in emergency room and good treatment as a non-citizen of those countries. The doctors are caring individuals.
If we lose a few doctors because they can't make a gazillion dollars, so be it. Who needs them anyway. India's medical programs are surpassing us as well. You all just don't get it. If it is American, does not mean it is better. We have the highest birth death rate than any other western country.
I will pay 50% in taxes if we could have free health care and free education for everyone...it is interesting how we can find money for wars in Iraq and Afghan but can't find money for medicare.
I refuse to vote for any of the Reps or Dems...anymore. We need new priorities... how about the care of people as one!
Guest, Where did your friend find these doctor's, and what hospital's are you speaking of? I have been hospitalized three times in the last year and yes, it can take time. The usual reason for this is that they have to run different tests to diagnose the problem. There isn't more staff because the hospital usually needs to make a profit. Though county hospital's have a longer wait also, probably longer.
People usually go to Mexico because their hospital's and doctor's tell them they can help. If the patient is lucky enough to get back to the US, they are fortunate.
Why do you think people wanting to go to medical school go to Mexico? They CAN'T get in here. This is the first time I have ever heard that Mexico has better health-care. Their government is always asking us for help.
People might be able to get care in the Casualty Department at the hospital, but for, say, cancer or Type I diabetes, they are often stuffed.
Bella, You would pay more money to get FREE health-care. How can it be free! If you ask a questionlike that, how can I answer you?
I apologize for what appeared inconsistency in my statement.
Let me restate it so you can understand and not play with my words.
I would prefer to live in a country that collects a 50% tax rate so that everyone ...whether they make a lot of money or not has access to education and healthcare without any additional costs. Do you understand that? Right now what taxes I do pay go for wars that I neither agree with or accept. So all the bitching about money that will be spent is ludicrous.
Your argument (or someone in this thread) said that there would not be good doctors or people wanting to be doctors (whatever happened to the oath of doing no harm when you become a doctor?.) nor would there be research. Well let me tell you one thing..the way it has been and continues to be .... there can be all the research in the world and they can find all the cures in the world and unless you have money to pay for these cures, you will not benefit. Once again, only the rich will reap the benefits.
And in defense of waiting for a procedure.... Right now the insurance companies take your money and can .deny any damn procedure they want. And there is no wait. Over and done with.....unless you have the money for it yourself. I won't even go into the horror stories that I have experienced or others I know...just because they could not buy their way into good health.
And hey, if that is they way the majority of the country wants it, I cannot stop it. But I do not have to agree with it. As far as I am concerned Obama and this congress is doing nothing and will do nothing to upset the apple cart. It is all talk and no action.
You all have to admit that the insurance companies as well as the pharmaceuticals are in charge. They have bought their way into Washington.
When we can go to Canada and pay far less for prescription drugs that originate in this country, there is a problem..and I am amazed that we are not in the streets over this kind of situation.
Anytime the insurance company denies someone and they die...why aren't you and those that think like you upset at that. I agree we should be angry but the anger is directed in the wrong direction.
Plants and Oil,
And you are sure of this, how? Did you listen to our President? He does a lot of, "mis-speaking" as he did again yesterday.
Tell me the elderly can get a stent, in the UK.
I'm sorry, but I have to take you for the words you write, I don't know you. It's like you want everyone to pay 50% on taxes. I assume that is federal tax, what about state and county taxes? You may be getting to 60 or 70%.
Why don't you try this approach. Get rid of tort laws that make so much for lawyer's. Why do you think the Democrat's take care of them, their PAC money. Cut down on this and insurance companies and doctor's can lower their prices. Obama doesn't tell you that!
Education: I grew up in the south Bronx, all my friend's went to college. It was a scholarship, loans and work. Why is it different today? With all the school's and barely a requirement for many, anyone can go to college.
Not everyone should go to college. Don't you need repair people, mechanics, chefs, etc.
The oath doesn't mean squat if you aren't qualified. I want a doctor that wants to make money, why do all the training if you don't make money. This is NOT utopia.
Do you have any idea why medication's made in this country are cheaper in Canada? I have two friend's that are CEO's of Pharma companies. Write me, and I will explain.
You say I'm glad people die. Now I have to stop being nice.
You sound desperate and in lack of knowledge of the subject. I pray for the souls of every person that dies, how dare you.
Canadian's come here for surgery, they may have to wait for years to have surgery.
Obviously we can't hear each other since we don't begin the debate from a common basis.
I am a socialist and I believe the government's purpose is to care for its citizens. Period. The money collected in taxes should be to provide health care, education, food, whatever it takes to live a stress-free as possible life. That is what I want my money to go toward ...
So really there is no need for this discussion. But you must know that you cannot solve the problems in this country with the same ideas that caused the problems in the first place. Just food for thought.
I apologize to everyone for my not knowing better to get into this discussion.
I agree with you, Harvey. What this is, is a good old-fashioned move to take away more of our Freedom and put Big Brother over our lives in every way. People from England don't get it—they didn't read Orwell. Thanks for a fine article.
"Bella, You would pay more money to get FREE health-care. How can it be free! If you ask a questionlike that, how can I answer you?"
I know I'm not Bella, but you are wrong here. America's health costs are, I think, the highest in the world per capita. Certainly, they are more than double the UK's!
The elderly can get stents in the UK. Although I think a lot of 60 year olds would resent being called "elderly"!
Hello James - I've read 1984 (published just after the NHS' foundation) and as far as I'm concerned, it's not anything to do with decent health care.
From the look of this author's writing, America could use some basic education, too.
Bella, No apology necessary, you said what you felt. Can you answer one question? In what country has socialism succeeded? I mean in it's entirety.
In lots of European countries. How about Kerala, in India?
James, Thanks very much for the nice words. Don't worry about the English, they're out looking for a dentist.
Plants and Oils, Hey pal, I am 60. Check out the stents again, I was told it was a no-no! As are many other things for the elderly.
Don't think, check it out. With everything going to taxes, do you know how much is for health-care.
I just heard a comparison of the US and Canada. We have three times as many MRI machines than they do. They wait month to get an MRI, we don't. They come here in mass to get surgery, I wonder why?
P&O, Both our countries can use better education, our problem is union's.
P&O, India, that should be your problem. After all European's can hate the US all they want, spreken ze............
Sorry, you lost me with your last comment, could you elucidate?
"Check out the stents again, I was told it was a no-no! As are many other things for the elderly."
With all due respect, you asserted it as a fact, not me. And the NHS doesn't work like that with regard to age limits.
P&O, India was your colony, how the English love colonies. If you want all your doctor's to come from India and Pakistan, good luck. They may be well trained in their country, but they have to pass our standard's here. Many can't pass the test. I wouldn't want any medical care except the best. Maybe I confused your health care with Canada's. I will check further.
Don't get sick!
Hi Harvey,
I totally agree with your assesment of the situation. I spen over half my time from 1996 to 2002 in the UK, Germany, Austria, and France working for an OEM in the secondary aluminum industry. I personally saw a 59 year old man who was on a waiting list for 18 months for quadruple cardiac bypass surgery. I was told by this same man that his mother had been sent home at age 62 with palitive care for stage one breast cancer. I heard similar accounts of rationing and palitive care for old and very young in all of these countries. They are following the Full Life pronunciations as stated by Ezekiel Emanual.
I also wrote an e mail to my state ACLU asking that they take action on the White House website request for "Fishy information." I then forwarded my email to that White e mail address.
Bella,
I understand your view of being a socialist. The US is becoming Facist. Socialist policies on big business losses paid for by the citizens with gains(profits) being kept by big business. If you want a socialist US I would suggest you propose and new Constitutional Convention.
Tom, I'm sure that message was for Bella. Since when do so many want to chhange our country? America is waking-up and we will return to being The United States. Maybe Obama will retire to Kenya.
The book on his father, he didn't even know the man. His mother dumped him on her parents. He had NO stable bringing up. He is the worst type of Narcissist possible, according to a leading Israeli Psychologist that is known world wide on this topic. He likens him to Hitler, Castro, Chavez, etc.
Tom, I too was in the Scrap Metal Industry, Zine Smelting, Aluminun trading and more. Spoke at National and International seminars, over 30 years ago. Do I have your permissionto send what you wrote to Plants and Oils?
I dont really think all the snipey comments about the English are really nessasary to be honest. Not all Brits have bad teeth, just as not all Americans are obese. I've met Americans who could eat an apple though a letterbox so I really dont know where that whole thing got started... but I digress.
The facts for me are these: If I lived in the US my wife would possibley be dead due to us not being able to afford first the medication, then the surgury, then the lifelong medication that she requires due to a thyroid gland problem. The same thing would have happened when she devoloped a blood clot on her lung just weeks after we got married. We would have been bankrupted twice over just to save her life. So I personally am glad of our National Health System. I'd rather wait in the queue than stand out in the cold and, hell, if you've got the money you can pay to be at the front of the queue anyway.
I do feel that the American voting public should be left to decide what they would prefer, whether it be continuing to pay into their own private funds or subscribing to a National system. Maybe the teaching hospitals for those who can pay (as they require the highest cash turnover) and the rest for the National System (or the other way round if you like). I havent read the bill, so I dont know exactly what is being proposed for the US. I do know that right now I wouldnt swap our system for yours for the world
Wow, what a controversial issue. I sure don't want my right to choose health care to be taken away. Government has no business deciding my choices. Good Hub, Harvey!
Harvey, you sound like an asshole, frankly. Insulting Plants and Oils just because he pointed out flaws in your hub is way out of line. You keep saying that America has the best health care in the world, I'd like to see your source. We may have excellent health care, that I don't dispute, but when 46 million Americans are without health insurance, nearly 18 percent of the population, how can you call our system "the best in the world?" http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml
Harvey,
You can send anything I write in the comments section to anyone you want. I wrote an e mail to the ACLU asking that they protest and take legal action if necessary against the White House concerning their illegal gathering of "fishy information" (fat chance). I forwarded the e mail to the White House snitch address to report myself.
Ludo, Here's something you, and most Americans don't know. If you can't afford a necessary medication, you can get it. You need this to happen. Your doctor must write a letter to the drug company, the drug company will then send you the medication and the price depends on what you can pay. Does hat shoundbad? You may even get it free.
The dental thing has been a joke here for years, but a friend that is an Endodontist told me this tonight.
"No Educationally Qualified Endodontists in the UK treat socialized medicine patients, only private practice patients. He helped train two dentists at Northwestern University, in Illinois.
I do hope your wife is well. I have Multiple Sclerosis.
dontfear, Thanks! The government has never run any form of business successfully. I want you to be in charge of yourself, that's the American way.
I cannot believe so many have responded to this obviously poorly conceived (as much as many/most of the Republican fear mongering messages out there) 'composition.' The facts are completely incorrect. Case/fact in point: The bill in question wants to ameliorate and relieve the situation the idiots claim it will bring on with "death panels." Most valid conservatives have acknowledged this.
Those who read it any other way need to go back to school and take some reading for context/comprehension classes.... And the author here is obviously a crackpot.
veryirish dude, You look young and therefore have a lot to experience, and thanks for the ass-hole comment. Plans and Oils doesn't know his own system. The following is from a friend that is the Past Presidend of the Illinois Endodontal Society.
"No Educationally Qualified Endodontists in the UK that
treat socialized medicine patients, only private practice patients." He trained them at Northwestern.
Tom Whitworth wrote above your comment.
"11 hours ago
Hi Harvey,
I totally agree with your assesment of the situation. I spen over half my time from 1996 to 2002 in the UK, Germany, Austria, and France working for an OEM in the secondary aluminum industry. I personally saw a 59 year old man who was on a waiting list for 18 months for quadruple cardiac bypass surgery. I was told by this same man that his mother had been sent home at age 62 with palitive care for stage one breast cancer. I heard similar accounts of rationing and palitive care for old and very young in all of these countries. They are following the Full Life pronunciations as stated by Ezekiel Emanual."
Ted Kennedy would be dead because he is 80 years old and has a brain tumor. Socialized medicine wouldn't treat that.
Take away illegal aliens and young peole that don't think they need insurane, and watch your number's go down.
Tom W., Good luck with getting a response, don't forget transparnency and accessability.
"No Educationally Qualified Endodontists in the UK that
treat socialized medicine patients, only private practice patients."
I do know our system. You can get root canal treatment and surgery on the NHS here.
Here's the NHS page on root canal treatment. They quote the success rate of it, which tends to suggest it is available!
You have mentioned a couple of things in this comments section. Firstly, that 60+ year olds don't get stents, and that 80 year olds aren't treated for cancer. What is your source for these assertions?
Taylor A, At least I'm not afraid to use my name. So I'm a fear-monger, do you fear me? If not, why the label? Truth be know, the bill sys nothing. We are waiting for a finished version.
You write like an intellectual wannabe with a long way to go. I think you call that, tit for tat. Maybe you do not understand what Obama and the Democrat's are trying to do.
First comes friendlyness, then health-care, then currency, then business and gotcha.
Why would Obama want a privae Army?
Here is the response to the fact-free allegations about heart age limits and Kennedy:
"The degree of misinformation is causing dismay in NHS circles. Andrew Dillon, chief executive of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (Nice), pointed out that it was utterly false that Kennedy would be left untreated in Britain: "It is neither true nor is it anything you could extrapolate from anything we've ever recommended to the NHS."
P & O, So happy you wrote. My first source is Tom Whitworth. 12 hours ago
"Hi Harvey,
I totally agree with your assesment of the situation. I spen over half my time from 1996 to 2002 in the UK, Germany, Austria, and France working for an OEM in the secondary aluminum industry. I personally saw a 59 year old man who was on a waiting list for 18 months for quadruple cardiac bypass surgery. I was told by this same man that his mother had been sent home at age 62 with palitive care for stage one breast cancer. I heard similar accounts of rationing and palitive care for old and very young in all of these countries. They are following the Full Life pronunciations as stated by Ezekiel Emanual."
The second was my Endodontal friend. He still see's his English counterparts here at seminars. If they want to learn, they come here.
How about your Pharma R&D? You don't seem to do much anymore, why is that?
Your dentist mate is wrong - the treatments are available on the NHS. The NHS site sets it out.
There is a lot of drugs research done in the UK. Several large drugs companies, too.
The word "Fearmonger" means one that stirs up fear. Here, based on the false information you are promulgating.
And clearly, Obama wants a private army so that he can enact martial law and kill those who need health care (but vote Republican) with his death panels.
"Ludo, Here's something you, and most Americans don't know. If you can't afford a necessary medication, you can get it. You need this to happen. Your doctor must write a letter to the drug company, the drug company will then send you the medication and the price depends on what you can pay. Does hat shoundbad? You may even get it free."
But my point is that in this country we didnt have to have a doctor send a begging letter to a company, we got it free as standard. And we'd have still had to pay for the sugury if we were in the US.
I recently had surgury for a sporting injury on my shoulder. It was done using key-hole surgury. There was a guy on my ward that was an ex-American (moved to the UK years ago & is now a British citizen) and got talking. He said to me that if there was one thing he didnt miss about the US it was the health care system. He was in for a simple operation, but reckoned it would probably have cost him in excess of $1000 in the US. He got it for free. He reckoned that my surgury would have also been over $1000. If that were the case I would still be living on painkillers and losing mobility in my shoulder daily. In 5 years my shoulder would have been paralysed. All because I'd have to pay for health care that should be provided as part of my human rights.
"The dental thing has been a joke here for years, but a friend that is an Endodontist told me this tonight.
'No Educationally Qualified Endodontists in the UK treat socialized medicine patients, only private practice patients.' "
Untrue I'm afraid. My family has an NHS dentist. We receive regular checkups and dental work for free from a qualified dentist. They also have private clients so I think you can guarrantee they are properly qualified.
"I do hope your wife is well. I have Multiple Sclerosis."
Thank you, she's doing fine now due to the free thyroxin she recieves on the NHS. I hope YOU are doing ok, I have a friend who has MS and she has a hell of a time with repiritary problems. If its not to personal a question roughly how much do you have to pay for your MS treatments?
Taylor A, Your comment is akin to all that is said by the far left. In the words of Saul Alinsky; "Attack-Attack-Attack." You don't even realize you are on the attack.
I hear ACORN is looking for a few good somethings.
Taylor A, Your comment is akin to all that is said by the far left. In the words of Saul Alinsky; "Attack-Attack-Attack." You don't even realize you are on the attack.
I hear ACORN is looking for a few good somethings.
Ludo, I have progressive MS and there is nothing for it. I'm in a wheel-chair, (12 years) in severe pain 24/7 and to much to go into. I do have a care-giver 34/7.
The American way is to work so you can pay for insurance. I get medical disbility but my wife has been forced to work hard. We arn't looking for government help. As Americans we can handle it.
We pay for other's to get governmental entitlements. We just want them to work if they can. We are also tired of supporting twenty million illegal aliens.
You say as Americans you can handle it, my feeling is as humans you shouldnt have to. I've read a little about the subject now and I can understand where you are coming from. In the UK we currently pay around 10% of our wages in tax for health cover compared to your 1.25% for medicare. I can see how the concept of a 8.75% rise in tax would be hard to swallow.
That doesnt mean that it is a bad thing. I dont imagine it went down that well with the UK public in 194? but 60odd years on everyone is thankfull for it.
I have to ask though; who is this we you represent?
The we I speak of is my wife and myself. I know there are more that think like us, just look at this thread. The Town Hall Meeting's across our country proves we are part of many. The President's polls are dropping faster than any before him. The polls also show the people do not want socialized medicine, but it goes farther.
Our President is a narcisisstic comunist that wants to control everything. Our government has taken over the auto industry and the banks. with health-care they will move on to other things. this is NOT America!
I'm sorry, but in no way is Obama a communist. You may not approve of his more left wing policies but that doesnt make him a communist.
I agree that the bank bailout & big business bailouts were rediculous, we've had the same thing over here. The UK government spent more on bail-out than they have spent on the problem of climate change in the last 5 years. Hell, Royal Bank of Scotland spent more of their bail-out money on bonuses for workers than the government intends to spend on climate change in the NEXT 3 years. However there has been a much larger outcry in this country.
Polls are only usefull if they take into account the entire populous and I cant see a guy in a suit with a clip-board heading into the ghetos (where next to no-one has medical insurance) to get the opinion of the people there. Chances are every person in the US who doesnt have insurance wants this to go through.
Nationalisation/Privatisation are intertwined with the economy. When things are tight it is in a countries interest to nationalise some industries so that they are still there when the boom times come again. America had managed to avoid this thus far in its history but this time it's got to much. Unfortunately this time the governments decided that the banks should be bailed out, throwing good money after bad.
Sorry, went off on a tangent there. Basicly, Obama isnt a communist, he's just a lot more left wing than the George Bush you are used to. Anyone who lives in the US and doesnt have insurance is going to want this to go though.
Obama has associated himself with many that claim to be communists. Look at his Czar's and see what they stand for. This dangerous narcissist wants to destroy the American way of life. I have met many Brit's that have moved here, they won't leave.
You don't get out of a serious debt by spending. The manknows nothing of history and doesn't care. He gave the Queen some CD's and quoted Winston Churchill incorrectly. The man reads off a tele-prompter, he's not really very smart. He won't let his college grades be known, doesn't sound like they were very good.
This hub has certainly created a passionate and (mostly) civil dialogue. Great job, Harvey!
I am not writing to engage in debate regarding the relative strengths and weaknesses of the various systems of health care that exist in the world. Instead, I would like to submit for consideration the idea that the sweeping changes to the American system that have been proposed by the senate and endorsed by the president are not necessary. These changes are, at best, a kneejerk overreaction to the problems that exist in the current system. At worst, they constitute an effort on the part of the federal government to take over control of a significant portion of the private sector.
An earlier post briefly mentioned tort reform. The point was not reengaged in later responses, and I would like to reintroduce it here. Part of the problem (note, I say part, not all) with the system of health care in America is that many of us have come to the erroneous conclusion that an analysis of symptoms always leads to correct diagnosis, diagnosis always leads to correct treatment, and treatment always leads to a complete restoration of health. When it becomes evident that this is not the case, many Americans are inclined to litigate. In order to protect themselves and their reputations, well-meaning, caring and competent doctors are forced to spend exorbitant amounts of money on malpractice insurance. In addition, needless tests may often be performed to verify the results of previous tests that confirmed the result of the first test that was run. Redundancy has its place, but not when its sole purpose is to limit the caregiver's liability. Each test increases costs. Each employee at a health care facility whose purpose is not to provide health care but to limit the facility's exposure to liability increases costs. Each doctor who raises the rates for his or her office visits to pay for insurance against malpractice increases costs. In the end, the only ones who benefit are the lawyers who are a constant threat to file lawsuits and the relatively few patients who file lawsuits.
My idea is not to eliminate litigation entirely, as this would remove the only recourse a patient might have in cases of legitimate malpractice. However, I think it is essential that new definitions of "malpractice" and "frivolous" be adopted if any health care reform is to be effective. The current system, is, as Harvey originally stated, performing admirably when it comes to providing quality care. Legislators should be addressing the out of control costs within the system and their underlying causes instead of establishing a new, government-run system.
I'll be honest. Its been a nice little chat we've had Harvey but I'm going to call it a day on this one. We are obviously from very different idealogical and socio-economic backgrounds and as such will never truely agree on a lot on issues.
I believe health care is a basic human right of society. If that means higher taxes and a possible waiting list then that is the price a nation pays. But I have that in my country.
You feel that it is an individual's reponsibility to pay for their own health care, even if the system means that a significant percentage of the population (I think someone quoted 18%) has to live without vital health coverage.
Neither of us has the right to knock the others system, as we dont live IN that system. All either of us can say is that, from an outside view, we prefer our own.
Politically I'm guessing you are a republican (I could be wrong and, if so, apologies), I myself am very liberal, maybe slightly centre-left, with a Humanistic outlook so we are not going to see eye to eye there either.
So, let us agree to disagree and carry on with our lives. I genuinely hope your MS gives you little pain in your long future life, no-one deserves what you have been and are going through. All I can say is try to lean back and enjoy your life, dont let the bad days get you down, enjoy the good days and let the stresses of the world wash around you instead of over you.
Peace be with you
Ludo
Ludo, We part on friendly terms. You have your side of the pond and I have mine. I admit to a lack of understanding of your government and will keep it that way.
I have no problems being happy mentally, physically I'm bad 24/7.
The article needs to be updated with actual facts. Your entire diatribe on being forced to meet with a counselor (the whole "death panel" creation of the GOP) are absolutely false, having been debunked by every news agency including Fox weeks ago.
Insulting our allies and fellow human beings overseas by making odious allegations against their healthcare system is unfortunate, inaccurate, and sounds zealous.
Your only source for this information was a conservative thinktank, the well-known biased disinformation machine: The Heritage Foundation. Accuracy is not a goal of this organization; if you read their mission statement, their goals are to push for preemptive military strikes, push for the conservative agenda, push for de-regulation, cut social spending in education/social security/healthcare, and increase the dominance of the GOP by any means achievable.
A biased article is not an article that facilitates rational discussion. It just degenerates into political talking points and flame wars. Fear, uncertainty, disinformation. The oldest "oh no the sky is falling" trick there is.
Plants and Oils: thanks for clearing up some of the ridiculous stereotypes and ignorance of foreign cultures that some of my countrymen display. Well-traveled and informed Americans need more representation here, else we prove to the world how stupid we all are.
S. Hall, Do you mean updated as The White House does daily? I write from what I am told, by peope that know. Initially the heath-care bill had many clauses like Ezekiel Emanual's beliefs on the elderly. The people made noise and they now want it out.
Obama says the AMA and OSHA endorse his health-care, nothey don't.
Overseas: My Endodontal friend knows what goes on, he helped train them.
My cousin in England waited six months for surgery.
They think their health-car is free, taxes.
Harvey, you said:
“When the people have nothing but the government to turn to, where else will they go?”
I thought that in America, government was ‘of the people, for the people, by the people’ - not, of the profit motivated multi-national companies, for the etc…
I hope that institutions like the NHS, owned by the people, ‘shall never perish from the earth’ - (or from the UK, at least). I think we (UK subjects, US citizens and anyone) should all look to your Founding Fathers for some inspiration on this one.
“In what country has socialism succeeded? I mean in it's entirety.”
This is a strange time to ask a question like that. I ask, in what country has capitalism succeeded? I mean, in its entirety.
“Here's something you, and most Americans don't know.”
Why don’t they know Harvey?
“I want you to be in charge of yourself, that's the American way.”
Yes, good idea, and the best way to do that in a democracy, is to work together to take responsibility for the actions of the people you pay to represent you. The multi-nationals pay to sponsor these political parties, and for general propaganda (which you seem to swallow too easily), but it’s your taxes that pays for most governmental costs - like it or not.
Terms like ‘small government’, ‘deregulation’, and ‘nanny state’, help to create the anarchy that is far too convenient for the predators in our midst. Take the expression ‘nanny state’ as an example: Ask yourself why anyone would want to get a nanny out of his or her way. Then apply the same logic to many of the other expressions we have spoon-fed to us by the media. I suggest that the intention is to shift any realistic kind of democracy even further away from the majority of the people; to persuade people to reject the very things they’d benefit from most. However, I suspect you won’t agree.
“Don't worry about the English, they're out looking for a dentist.”
It was a Thatcherite attempt to Americanise our NHS that began the dental crisis in the UK. The thin edge of the wedge - one might say. The NHS has always been under attack - not least by encroachment and attrition - by very powerful people, some of whom have all the time and money they need to manipulate other people’s lives. However, the vast majority still won’t let it go under. Does that tell to you anything about the NHS?
Harvey, I wish you all the best. After reading your hub and comments, I do think you’re misguided, but that’s not to say I think your intentions are to misguide.
but it’s your taxes that pays for most governmental costs - like it or not. Our taxes pay for everything the government does, how else can they do anything?
Please don't give me terminology and media. The people make up their minds what they want.
Capitalism has made this country great. We saveed all of Europe twice, a little respect please.
Still you are entitled to express your opinion, that's THE AMERICAN WAY.
Hi Harvey,
You seem to be quite a lightning rod. The liberal left will not abide the truth. I saw a negative comment which asked about the Government Being "Of the people, by the people, For the people". I agree that was as it was intended. But beginning with FDR that dream began to fade. Now government is for government, trying to propogate omnipotent power. My father always told me, "Any government big enough to give you everything is big enough to take everything away." And in the history of humanity that is exactly what has happened. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, are just a few examples.
Is that our dream for America? I sure as hell hope not!!! Remember power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. If anyone can show me an example of that truism not being true, then bring in on and I may reconsider.
A few stats from nationmaster (link below):
Life expectancy: average US citizen has a life expectancy of
78.14 years which places it 47th in the world.
There are a lot of factors at work in life expectancy of course but healthcare quality is an important one.
A few countries that placed above the US- Bosnia and Herzegovina, Jordan, Canada.
Infant mortality rates are a better measure of a nations health. In the US in 2002 it was 7.0 per thousand births, worse than Croatia or Cuba. Canada managed 4,82.
One stat where the US was top was in health spending per capita. It spent almost twice as much as France which has one of the best health care systems in the world.
On the research note if you check the Wiki below you will find that 6 of the top ten drug companies are European. So research seems OK with national health systems on that front.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_at_b
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hea_car_fun_
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_indust
Apologies for introducing some facts into this hub.
I am so sorry I forgot to put in the tort problem. Knowing a lot of doctor's, this is the biggest problem. At this point the Democrat's say that Reublican's kill every attempt they make. Yet the lawyer's gave more money to Obama. Still, they are both at fault.
Tom, I was once on the left, marching, protesting, etc. As I "grew-up, my thinking changed. I voted for Bush over Kerry even though Kerry was for more stem-cell research. I chose to vote for my country over myself (MS).
The left can dish it out, but they can't take it. I can handle all the words thrown at me, because I fight for America.
Will Apse, At least you give your real name. Most on the left (I assume you are) make up names. Be careful of stats, they are often misleading. An example would be life expectancy. What are the murder rates in these countries? We seem to enjoy killing each other frequently. We've also lost a few thousand in wars.
Do you really think all countries tell the complete story? Most stats need to tell you how the stats are recorded.
Wik is not a very good source, they have been Proven incorrect many times.
Canadian's come to the US in droves for surgery.
R&D by Pharma Companies is way down in Europe, why is obvious. They also say health-care is free, check out their taxes.
Hi Harvey,
Hope that everything is going well for you - my mother has MS, so I genuinely wish you all the best.
Personally, I have little opinion on the US health issue - you have a different culture, different history and came from a different place. Fair enough, and I hope that you all get something sorted out, in a uniquely American way.
However, Europeans, especially the British, are very angry about being dragged into this. Our health services are nothing to do with you, nor yours with us. The lies and mistruths told about a much loved national institution, such as the NHS, are disappointing.
The British have always regarded Americans as good friends, so it feels like a betrayal. I have never before known the British to be so united and patriotic. To put it into context, imagine how you would feel, as an American, if the mainstream British press started telling outright lies about the US Constitution. I suspect that Americans would feel very disappointed, as they should.
To the people making comments about 1984 and totalitarianism in Europe - please do not go there. That is extremely offensive. Most of my Greek friends lost family during the war and suffered under a fascist regime. That type of talk hurts them a lot, and ignores the reality of Greek life.
Anyway, better stop before this turns into a Hub!
All the Best :)
Sufidreamer, I am sadden to hear of your mother's condition. I hope she has relapsing-remitting, rather than my chronic-progressive. But both are horrible.
I have heard what many Brit's have said on this thread, not all true. I brought them up because our President wants health-care to be like Europe's. American's do not want it! Obama is trying to take over our great country and health-care is a big part of it.
My writing of 1984 was about our President, so do not take offense.
Brit's don't realize they have basically lost their Pharma industy, that is what sociliized medicine does. Also less people want to become doctor's. Fifteeen percent of their doctor's were trained in India and Pakistan.We don't want that here.
Most people on the forum's are liberal and want things to change. Wait until it hits home.
Harvey, you have my respect. By initiating an issue like this, on a medium such as this, you do something positive for everyone, regardless of the opinions you hold - or even how you express them.
If it’s a truism that ‘power corrupts’, then it seems that the internet at least, is yet to be corrupted to the same degree as other mediums.
Thank you Harvey - and keep it up. For my part, I shall cling to my NHS like a Scotsman to a £5 note.
amillar, It was very kind of you to say what you did. I'm familiar with the rumor that the Scots are not exactly willing to part with their money. If this is so; how do the pubs do so well?
I for one used to be a die hard democrat except for the past few elections and I am only 30. I have been working in the health and home care off and on since high school and honestly feel our whole nation has been messed up in the head in the way that the government feels we need to reform. For one if they want to "reform" our Medical Health care they need to go back and "reform" themselves. These so called town hall meetings that each states' senators are having are getting them booed out of town. People have been telling there own state senators where the bears gone in the forest to do there own liberty. But if you go to the ones President Obama ( and I mean that with thru and thru sarcasm) the white house has all the people in there filtred to where its the ones they want in ane the opposing is out of the meeting. Claire Mc Caskill who is a major supporter of all this was booed badly and was talked rudely to at the latest one she finally asked if they wanted her to leave and the crowd even cheered because we all don't want or need this. How about getting the people that are abusing the Medicare and Medicaid systems off. That frees up a lot of money there. And the get the ones abusing Social Security off it as well. Yes in some ways I can assure you we could use some reforms every where but not like this. Why do they think some come in from Germany, China, etc to get the operations they are not allowed to receive in there own country? Wake up and tell me that you really don't want our government telling you whether or not you can live or die just to save money? I want to live and I want my family to live. This world is worth living and there is somethings worth fighting about and personally I will fight this as much as possible if it means fighting for the right to live.
Obviously, the people who dont like the bill have not worked with insurances, let them go broke! they raise healthcare premiums, cut benefits, just to pad their wallets. We need the goverment to intervence just like they should with the Credit Card copanies. They need to fear the consumer, people say there is already enough competition in healthcare insurance thats bull. If a person buys private insurance after loosing your job, you have two choices Cobra who cost about $1200.00 for a family of three. or you can choose a private insurance that offers one suited for you, but God help you if you already suffer from say, High Blood Pressure, the private insurance say you have to wait a year for them to cover. Mean while you the blood pressure patient has to buy out of pocket meds, has to go and pay out of pocket doctor visits, ENOUGH OF THIS!!! Pass the Bill, I worked in Hospitals and was there in a city where the main cause of death is High Blood pressure and heart disease. People end up needing Open hearts, and under some insurances they will only pay for 3 days ICU post Bipass surgery. then whether or not your ready for the step down units your out of ICU. Guess what I've seen thousands of deaths due to current private insurances do this. This is how you want it, health insurance should be a civil right, not run as a money making skeem. I am poor and I cant afford health insurance, I have a wife and 2 yr old child. If my wife gets sick or if I get sick, our care will be substandard due to no insurance. No one can dispute this, because this is what happens behind closed hospital doors. If you want to read some more of what really is happening let me know I will tell you stories that will question if the current health insurance company's really have our best interest in mind, I'll tell you absolutely not! They are here to Make a profit! they could care less how sick you really are. You as me should they be put out of business, Your Damn right they should! They dont care about anything but what size jet they're going to be going to Hawaii in. That is after they raise your Premiums.
sxr24k, I have worked with insurance as a medical bill collector and part of the problems with insurance is that they have to raise there premiums for a reason. You know why? Because a lot of the time good people that normally could pay all there medical bills on time can't after a devasting diagnoses. You take someone that makes almost 40,000 a year and her husband makes roughly 25,000 respectively, and have her go thru a total hysterectomy ceasaren style and the husband loose his job in the factory after major 2 back surgerys that leave him 100% disabled and still will need at least 2 more surgeries before this is said and done. The wife I know personally because she is my sister and she pays in almost 2,000 a month in premiums and on top of that they can't after all that coverage pay all of their out of pocket expenses and was sent to collections. Now you want to point fingers about how insurance raise premiums just because they can. Not fight you on some of that I agree to. But what about all the rest of the people that can't afford to pay the rest of there premiums after they already covered loads of the expenses an they have to send them to collections. The same with hospitals. Can you really tell me that it is necessary to pay $8.00 for one tylenol when I could pay that for a 150 at the pharmacy? That is what was on my hospital bill when I had shoulder surgery. Asked for a tyelnol and was charged that for 1 pill. Not just the insurance companies doing this it is a vicious cycle. I make roughly 12-15,000 a year myself and my husband makes more than me driving truck. I have no health coverage. Before I was injured I had a damn good job as a cnc mill and lathe worker and was happy with my insurance premiums. I got hurt and the government refused to help me because my household made what? Too Much Money! We were starving for almost 2 years down to one income because at the time of my injury we both worked in the factory and when we asked for a little assistance just temporarily for food stamps we made too much money! How do you think our government is really and I mean really gonna help us if this passes? And if they do passed this and made it to where it was gave to all of us without regards of individual personal income do you think they will honestly gonna let you decide if your diagnossed with cancer if you get to fight for your life or have to lay down and die because they don't want the expense of loss if you did fight and died. My mom was born in 1947 and I intend to keep her around as long as possible and my grandmother is 92 and still can walk on her own with a walker. I refuse for this to pass with out a fight just so the government can tell me that because of their age and the diagnoses they need to be couseled on quality of life. Compared to you I want to live.
Hi Harvey,
I was reading an article online this morning about the possibility of dropping the "Public Option". The article started "Bowing to Republican pressure", and I stopped reading immediately. The only reason Obama is considering dropping the public option is that he and his liberal cronys can read polls. They see they are losing Independants, and that means losing elections.
Reality check for you leftists. They don't give a damn about you. They care about being re-elected.
If US citizens ever got a national health service, I imagine they would be like the citizens of every other nation that has one- they would treasure it and reject any party that threatened it.
There is no major (or even minor party that I know of)that advocates ending any of the national health systems in Europe. Firstly they wouldn't get elected. Secondly everyone is aware of how grossly inefficient private-only health systems are and just how much money they gobble up.
Employers over here would be tearing out their hair if they had to pay the kind of costs that are normal in the US.
Ordinary people would be outraged if any fellow citizen was unable get the health care they needed through lack of insurance. Even feckless, village idiots are reckoned worthy of a healthy life.
Also, universal health care reduces the general level of anxiety in a society. Losing a job does not equal risk of death. The murder rate you mention might decline a little.
As for 1984- George Orwell who wrote the novel was a passionate supporter of the UK's national health service.
ps. It would be nice if you could quote any reliable sources for your statements
willow1980, I can't disagree with you on anything. Our government never follows their budget, then they blame the other party. The people are stuck making up the money.
Town Hall's: Obama plays the, only people that like me card. The press no longer knows how to ask question's but the people do.
Being from Chicago, I knew what this man was like. Totally narcissistic, a communist, not as smart as people think, an excellent reader, no previous record, a denier, a lier and much more. Still the American voters put him in office.
The President should adopt that all pork add on's will be vetoed; do you think that would help the budget?
Keep talking to people your age, I'm just a sick old man.
srx24k, Of course companies want to make a profit, don't you understand capitalism? People ars dying of heart disease, shocking. That's the numberr one cause of death.
Do you want to go to Canada and see how helpful the government can be concerning health-care. You may not get there, too many of them are coming here for their health-care.
In socialized medicine you just may not be allowed to have certain procedure's, depending on your age. I know CEO'S of hospital's and Phara companies, I get a lot of information you are not privey to.
Free care: Check the taxes.
Though I respect you beliefs, I do not have to agree with them.
willow, You go girl!
Tom, It's Obama's advisors that tell him to do this, he only cares about himself. What other kind of man in his position would let his brother live in a hut?
You should read that article, what? Always see what your opponent is doing. That way you can form a battle plan better.
We Republican's aren't innocent but we want to preserve the American way of life.
Alaska has a bridge for sale.
Will, That's what makes us different from you. We don't colonize and we like to do things for ourselves, at least until Obama. He wants to be like you or actually further left. Health-care only follows up everything else his party has pushed through.
American's are sick of our President lying to them. He just says, he misspoke. He's so educated but that is a favorite word of his.
You have no idea of what any bill being talked of has in it, the President doesn't either. He talks(well reads) very well but one has to watch what he does. He has apologized to so many countries for what we didn't do. He bows to the King of Saudi Arabia (he didn't bow to your Queen, none of our President's have bowed to anyone) and apologizes. It never ends.
This article bares so much bent up hostility, as does Town Hall meetings. Lets see what you do if an officialwants to change your country.
15% of your doctor's are now trained in India and Pakistan.
On the whole, all change is for the worst when it's happening. Until you look back and notice that, somehow, things did get better.
I admire the fact that you haven't deleted my comments, Harvey. Best of luck in your campaign.
Will, Why would I delete anyones comment? I answer every comment people send in, I hide from know one. I also listen to all.
Thank you for your comments.
Hi Harvey,
I'm not sure that Obama has thrown in the towel. We need to see the details of the Co-ops. They may be a Trojan Horse. This would be likely for a follower of the ways of Alinsky.
You and I know he believes the ends justify the means.
I don't really care about what systems other countries choose for health-care (or anything else for that matter) as I personally believe a country shouldn't try to convince others its solution is better and why unless asked to, but I happened to come across your hub and have a few things to input about other matters.
Firstly, quote: "The answer is quite simple, we have better everything here. Don't argue with me, the world knows this." This must be the most narrow-minded attitude I've ever come across. Who are you to say you have the best of everything? No one is best at EVERYTHING, and so certainly not the US. As you say the world knows this, I would ask how big your world is?
In the comments when people have shown statistics and/or statements to your disadvantage you have quickly declared them invalid, or countered with statistics and/or statements of your own covering a different subject of the matter at hand. Who are your friend(s) with all that information at hand? What are their credentials, their experience, their own sources (as in academic papers, professional chit-chat, personal experience of one case or a thousand)? Without that added I cannot see any weight in your statements since "a friend in that profession said so" is merely hearsay until credentials supports it.
Either you guys are being paid by the Big Insurance Companies who are reaping Billions now thru Insurance Fraud against victims in auto accidents by denying or delaying claims or your totally in the dark on why America needs Health Care Reform. I don't doubt for one minute that insurance companies llike Allstate are paying scabs to go to public meetings to cause a scene. I've dealth with many insurance adjusters who are embarrased now what they are doing to people who are injured, but won't speak up until it happens to them or one of their loved ones. Let's face it, when it happens to you or your family then you will really want Health Care Reform.
Clay,
I am not paid by anyone to voice my concern or the way I feel about this reform nor am I in the dark. What about yourself? Can you honestly admit to yourself what will happen to you if the government does get to step in and decides your fate if you fall ill? A friend of mine that is close to my heart about 2 months ago found out her husband as stage 4 non hodgkins lymphoma. I am sure that with all the insurance and other government agencies you have personally dealt with that if you know if you are diagnosed with that devasting disease that you automatically can be able to get your SS disability,.Here is the upset of this he was gave 4 months he is now into his 3rd month and it doesn't look good. Our lovely government agencies will not let him have his Social Security disability until after a 5 month waiting period but if it was Lou Gehrics disease he could have it immediately. They only receive about 1,000 a month income now with her working and trying to help him as much as she can plus be the sole support for the family. No assistance what so ever from Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and the pharmacutical companies. The medicine before his chemotherapy to make it easier on the nausea side effects was going to cost 800.00 per pill and he would have had to take 8 pills within 24 hours of treatment. This family is going through hell and there isn't even a National Healthcare. Tell me do you honestlty feel if we had that now our government would be even more sympathetic and try to help him fight for his life. I think not. The cards or not in his favor just so the government can save a buck!
Tom, You've got got it exactly. He lies and chips away, oh I'm sorrry. He misspeaks.
Tom, You mean politician's care about being re-elected! Obama doesn't, he thinks he's already won 2012.
Sparkling, Nice eye! I only throw in other countries because Obama wants to copy or do something close, but he wants to do more. He has already taken over the auto industry, financial houses, wants to set salaries, have union's control the work place and so much more. Please google, Saul Alinsky and see what Obama is about. Look uphis Czar's and see what they believe in. No President in the history of our country has tried to hange so much, it hasn't even been a year.
When his friend in Cambridge yelled; "racial profiling" Obama stepped in. When a man in St. Louis is beaten by people representing ACORN and SEIU the President is quiet. But I have gone on a tangent.
Who do I know that I have gotten information from. I spoke of this earlier on this thread but I will tell you. I know two CEO's of Pharma companies, a President of a hospital Group, a past President of the Endodontal Society of Illiois, a Diplomat in two field's of Pharmachology, a couple of State Representative's and have a friend running for the Senate in 2012. If that wasn't sufficient, I can give you more.
Thought you all might find this interesting especially you Clay. For those that live in MO Claire Mc Caskill will be holding another meeting on the 31st at the Guiloz in Springfield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKGwKdd6r0Y
Also here is one of our Country's soliders speaking out agianst this and you may find this interesting as well.
Clay, I am not affiliated with any organization, only a concerned citizen from Chicago that understands Obama's tactics. He is further left than most Chicago politician's.
The man barely has any record. He won't even let his college transcript's be known. As editor of the Harvard Law Review, he never wrote an article. A an Illinor State Senator, he usually voted present, he was elected because his opponent got caught up in a scandal. He lost a race for the US House of Representative's to former Black Panther, Bobby Rush 2-1. He was a great community organizer. He would have lost his US Senate bid but again his opponent got caught in a sex scandal. Alan Keys from Maryland was brought in a few months before the election to oppose him. Keys is a joke, Obama won.
In the US Senate he once again barely has a record. Present was the way to vote. He complained Bush's bills were too long and he didn't have time to read them, he must be joking.
Charles Krauthammer of The New York Times said; "Don't listen to what Obama says, watch what he does." Simly put, he lies.
I hope I have answered to your satisfaction.
Wow, I guess if you keep repeating that over and over or louder and louder it will be true? We're the best? I work in healthcare, no we aren't. If you haven't been elsewhere you don't know...clearly you don't.
A, And you do! You won't even give your name. Same answeres to question's because many haven't read everything, there is a lot.
Do you have anything to say?
Reading through all of these strings is like following a fast-moving pickup on a very dusty road. There is such a cloud of rhetoric flying around, how can any kind of consensus be attained? Each point on either side and all of the gray area in-between is never really addressed, at least, not very objectively. I did see some very kind and empathetic commentary when people were addressing the health needs of others, and perhaps this is where we need to begin a debate, rather than from any ideological perspective. Do we care about each other? Does it matter that we live in a society where there are millions who are in need of health care? Are there economic benefits to having a healthy society? Do these benefits overwhelm the costs associated with health care? Would there be a boost to a national consciousness, conscientiousness, morale and business productivity if people knew their healthcare was completely covered? Knee-jerk responses on both sides reveal more ignorance than fact, and there are facts - not just made-up statistics - that show the egregious and tragic flaws of our current healthcare system.
Willow, McCaskil will once again say, "You don't trust me!" She a joke but her joke was better.
Please listen to the following video. People still call this man an idiot, but he was intelligent and ahead of his time.
Donnell, I'll bet you are from across the Atlantic. This topic relates to many things our President is trying to change. He wishes to make us a European (or farther east) country, this is a large part of it.
In Europe you can probably read and understand the bills that are passed. Obama presents a bill over 1,000 pages close to midnight and wants a vote at 8 A.M. He doesn't even know many things in the bill, he admits it. Our legislator's do not have the time to read and understand it, yet they must vote. Doesn't this sound strange to you?
That is what happened on his stimulus package. The Stimulus has done nothing, even though our debt is now over a trillin dollars. His health-care bill has been changed a few times, in days, most people are sick of this.
Most do not trust him and Congress, they hide many things in these bills, and we have NO money.
An apology to my European friend's. I did not set out to antagonize you about your health- care system, I got carried away because of un-American, American's.
Once again our President has changed his mind and is backing a different health system, stay tuned for tomorrow. New or old system, when you check into it you find new wording same results.
The man has one idea, and when he diverts from it he gets lost. So do the people!
European's are entitled to the health-care they want, so are American's.
Thank you for the compliment. Generally I have nothing against Obama, quite the opposite since he has a way more open-minded relation to other countries in contrary to the last couple of years' "my way or the highway"-attitude from US leaders. And of course that policy is of greater importance to me, being a foreigner, than internal matters that are most unlikely to affect my situation.
Yes, please. I did read some of the other comments but didn't find what I searched for, what I meant with credentials is more concrete as in which pharma companies? and what hospital group?
Sparkling, Your welcome, I am a gentleman. Ae you by chance from the UK?
Obama apologizes where ever he goes. He bows to the Saudi King, does that tell you anything?
Europe n lose a great ally because of Obama.
Thank you for posting this controversial subject. Controlled healthcare by our government is NOT what the people want, but he seems to have a way of getting HIS way no matter what the public really wants.
Yoga, Obama has all the votes he needs, until now. That is why he is scampering all over the place. Hey pals, who will stay with me? The people won't.
Everyone needs to educate themselves about our constitution and our rights
And we should never cease to oppose socalism,communism and fascism on every front.I love my freedom.It has consequences, but without freedom there is no flavor,thrill,or creative contentment to life,there is only fear ,drudgery and exsistence.
Harvey,
It's useless to have a discussion with you. You know everything. You have CEO friends that tell you stuff that we're not privy to. You should check yourself before calling anyone narcissistic. And I know you enjoy your first amendment rights, but please, for the sake of the country you love, learn grammar/spelling. You're embarrassing a fellow citizen.
America is changing and that's a good thing. It's called evolution! Republicans are headed to the same destination as the wig party if they don't learn to adapt to the times. Good luck.
sts, You may disagree with what I say but please do not speak of my grammar or spelling. I have a very bad case of Progressive MS, this leads to problems writing. My fingers get gnarled and my arms may not lift, I am tired and weak. I am lucky to be able to do what I can. Chastise me for my inabilities if you wish.
Narcissistic: That is based on a diagnosis by an Israeli authority on the subject. Have you noticed he never takes blame, Bush did this or a certain industry did that. He says he wants a bipartisan relationship but says they don't need the Republican's to vote. He never says anything wrong, he misspeaks. Transparency, ask the Dems.
The Republican's will "kick ass" in the next election. Have you seen Town Hall Meeting's or polls? Obama will go down in history as the worst President ever.
You might try realizing that this is the United States of America.
Angel, That's why we are The United States of America. Today they are talking about the Canadian health system imploding.
I believe that. We have a lot of work to do,to not become
Canada. Never mind that we are on a fast track to mimicing a Chinese or a Stalin type system. If anyone believes that supporting this move will in any way protect you,think again
Just stop and read these invasive government takeover bills.
Both parties are equally liable for these policies.
So you can't vote it out. We must have local grassroots movements and appoint officials who listen to us and vow to restore our country and its vibrant economy.
So my answer is we should never have this health care bill forced upon us.We must prevent it from becoming law or policy,You know what they say,an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And I thank you Mr. Stelman for being brave enough to host such a debate. So no to national health care.
I believe that. We have a lot of work to do,to not become
Canada. Never mind that we are on a fast track to mimicing China or a Stalin type system. If anyone believes that supporting this move will in any way protect you,think again
Just stop and read these invasive government takeover bills.
Both parties are equally liable for these policies.
So you can't vote it out. We must have local grassroots movements and appoint officials who listen to us and vow to restore our country and its vibrant economy.
So my answer is we should never have this health care bill forced upon us.We must prevent it from becoming law or policy,You know what they say,an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And I thank you Mr. Stelman for being brave enough to host such a debate. So no to national health care.
Hi Harvey,
I recently heard a great American, Judge Andrew Napolatano making his point that National Health care was unconstitutional. That none of the powers enumerated for the federal government allowed for legislation for such a proposition.
This made me wonder of the history of the Social Security act and it's constionality. This fact so worried the FDR administratation as shown in the link below. They jumped through hoops to remove language to not make Social Security appear to be insurance.
Angela, You've got it, our President is a communist. If he gets (which he won't) a second term, he will ask for no term limits on the Presidency. A prediction.
Tom, We were taught Roosevelt was a good President, he was not. I have kept hoping someone would sue the President, but know one has. It will eventually happen.
Napolitano is one of my favorites.
I have just heard recently (and please do not quote me on saying this as gospel) and thought that you all might find this as something to investigate on your own. That the Medical advisor for Obama is wanting to make it legal to abort a child up to the age of 2 years. That since children are not able to tell the differences in time that they are not a human child yet. Again I have only heard bits and pieces and wanted to bring this up that you might want to look into it on your own and then see what you think of it.
Do the BeeGees think you Americans have the best healthcare? As a user of the NHS here in the UK I'm happy to realise there's no perfect answer. I've had cancer in the mid 90's here and am still around but that's probably as much to do with luck than judgement. What I think amazes people in the UK is the vehemence of the detractors who are painted as wanting the status quo i.e. 47 million out of the healthcare loop and that just seems, well, loopy!
Willow, I think this will take time to check. I haven't heard anything.
chicken bottom,
That figure is one that Obama throws around, very misleading. Did you know that over 20 millionof these people are illegal aliens. There are many in their 20's and 30's that prefer to spend their money on cars, etc. Other's just lost their jobs and haven't done anything yet.
Many people you see demonstrating are in red or purple shirts. These groups are ACORN & SEIU. Professional demonstraters that get paid for this.
Harvey/Willow
This is part of Ezekiel Emanuels Whole Lives System. Very low priority for health care until about 10 years old. I sent Harvey a copy of the curve.
Tom, I barely got bits and pieces of it on the news about that system could you please send me a copy as well I would love to read it. Thanks.
Tom, I got it and I'm familiar with that wonderful Chicagoan. I guess I just hate the whole family.
Willow, I'm sorry to say that I deleted it. Maybe Tom still has his copy or can tell you where to look. Basically you better not be young or old.
Harvey, you've sparked a very full and frank discussion here, and I'm sure anything that I might say regarding the NHS in the Uk would just be covering old ground. However, just for the record, I'd like to counter two of the assertions made earlier. Firstly, the father of a friend of mine had a heart stent op on the NHS last week. He is in his 70s. Secondly, my mother suffered from a brain tumour in her seventies and was given excellent care and a full range of options under the NHS. As for the whole dentist issue, yes, it is true that many dentists choose to go into private practice, but many also treat NHS patients. Like Plants and Oils, who commented earlier, I'm delighted to say that I have received very good free or subsidised dental care all my life, and I have never had cause for complaint.
Hi Harvey
Obama has truly shown he has no shame. He is a great follower of Alinsky. Quoting the Torah/Bible to religious leaders. Have the liberals suddenly got religion?
But the congress is saying they will pass the bill by any means necessary. That is right out of Alinsky's playbook.
If the liberal Senators do as they say they will do they should take into account these words below.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government...
These words are from the Declaration of Independance. They do not have the consent of the governed.
Amanda,
You must have missed my apology to all Europeans, I understand many of the people have received excellent care. I was going by what my relatives in London had told me about their experiences.
I still haven't had anyone in the UK talk about 15% of the doctor's being trained in India and Pakistan. Many Brit's no longer wish to become doctor's, does this not disturb you?
On TV, they just had a British doctor on, he spoke of people that have died because of the system. I admit to being perplexed. The Canadian's have admitted their system is imploding, and they frequently come to the US for care.
It seems to be a "hit or miss" situation.
Tom, He is a communist!
Obama has never read those words or doesn't believe them.
Harvey, the same is no doubt true of the American system. Just as you will find those who think American healthcare is wonderful, there are others who will say the opposite. You mention that we have immigrant doctors here, and one of the comments above says you have them there too! We have a multi-national society, and I would anticipate that that mix would be rolled out across all strata of society. No one gets to practice medicine here without their qualifications being subject to the closest scrutiny, so there should be no problem in accepting medical advice from a doctor trained overseas. In fact one of the best doctors I have ever had was from Asia.
Medical training is a long and arduous undertaking, and only the cream of students will go into medicine. University places here are over-subscribed, so I don't know where you get the idea that Brits no longer choose medicine as a career.
Amanda, The 15% was a statistic I heard from a Brithish doctor I heard on TV.
Most foreigner's that become doctor's here, are trained here. If not, they must take courses and pass tests, before getting a license.
I've never heard that statistic, though as i've already said, our current government has a very free and easy attitude to immigration, and our numbers have swelled accordingly. It would be no surprise to me if a large number of those immigrants were health care professionals. After all, it's a very portable skill.
Amanda, My fear for all of Europe is that it will all become Muslim, check the birth and immigration rates. Many are terrorists, as you have witnessed. They don't care about your welfare, you are an infidel.
I've gone on a tangent, but think about it.
Most are not in health-care, look at the unemployment figures.
Anyone, If this article keeps getting more comment's, why does the number assigned go down?
Our immigrant population is of all religions and nationalities. No, of course they are not all medical professionals, but I don't think it's such a stretch to assume that a reasonable number are. After all, you said yourself that you'd heard 15% of our doctors are from an immigrant background. A proportion of all immigrants are muslim, and an even smaller proportion of those are religious fundamentalists. A tiny per centage of these may become radicalised, and get seduced into terror plots. No, that is not ideal, but unless you close your borders completely, you can't prevent this happening. (And even with closed borders, the power of the internet is all pervasive).
Hi Harvey
I don't know why the number is going down. Could it be some want to supress the message?
Will Obama employ the same approach to infastructure? Tear down all bridges, roads, water systems, sewage systems, airports, et al, and start from scratch. Could we not repair them?
The power of the Internet means nothing to a terrorist. My friend's son and daughter were supposed to be at the train staion in London, when it blew up. Thank G-D for trains being late.
Our immigrant population can walk across the border north and south, million's are illegal. We pay for illegal's to get health-care, do you? We also pay for them to go to school, do you? Many of them get welfare to live on, do you pay for that? Many cities here are now sanctuary cities. That means even the police can't ask if you are a citizen. Drug dealer-Gang member, go about your business. We are losing our country, as we know it. People that don't have insurance here can go to an emergency room and be treated, free.
Tom, I'm beginning to wonder why the number would go down. The owner is liberal, but I hope that isn't the case. I do find it difficult to contact the administration, they want users to help you. Which doesn't always work.
The help page is not always useful,and my question page doesn't always work.
I would like to offer a couple of comments. Censorship is here.We used be shocked at the thought of censorship,but no more.We are now terrorist ,according to our beloved DHS(Department of Homeland Security),if you have bumperstickers,a bible in your car,if you believe in freedom,even our veterans.
Now you must be conditioned for more censoring,we are one breath from a complete police state.Just search you tube for police state,police brutalty.
As for health care and anyone out of prime of life,too young ,old ,sick or productivly challenged you will not be denied care you just won't get it,much less good care.
Willow,I am shaken to tears by the statement about 2 yr olds.If this is in that bill ,and I would not be suprised.That policy was not drafted by a parent. It has been proven that a child can learn in the womb,even recognizing a parents voice.I say if we can learn, we are a human with rigths.
The only child who may not know it is human at that age, is one left in a crib or play pen with no human contact for extended periods of time.Such as the Romainian orphans of the 80's.
When did communist become socially popular? I was taught it was the most evil system of government in the world to be shuned no matter what the cost.
Angela, I'm still checking this out. Couldn't do anything earlier, it was my mother-in-laws 88th. Big family party and I'm still recovering.
They say that mother-in-laws are like witches, I truly love mine. At 88, she may no longer get care under Obama. To bad she's too old to change parties.
Angela/Harvey
here is the link to Ezekiel Emanuel's Entire lives plan
Tom, It says this does not exist.
Harvey arguing with socialists and people in the UK who have no clue what it means to actually pay for health care is insane. You can't change a socialists mind they have a mental disorder and the English just think they are the best at everything. One of the reasons we spend so much on health care is because we are giving free health care to illegals and people who just refuse to pay their bills. We also are the worlds leader in medical innovation, research and development cost a lot of money and the US seems to be the only ones doing it!
Tex, I agree with you, but they pay for health-care with their tax's. I have no idea why they call it free.
Tex, I agree with you, but they pay for health-care with their tax's. I have no idea why they call it free.
I'm a pretty good judge of character, and regardless of political afiliation, there was something about Obama that I just didn't trust. Your healthcare/political analysis of the situation is dead on. He passes things too quickly and there's no doubt he's got something up his sleeve. Also a major socialist point of this national healthcare is to decrease the gap between the rich and the poor, however once it is in place, rich patients will go to the private practices of their gov doctors to get better and quicker care while poor patients must settle for the long wait lists and lower quality government controlled hospitals, thus increasing the gap.
Hey there, great posting. Look like we are from the same neck of the woods.
C, Google and read about Saul Alinsky, you will see where he wants to lead us. Obama is a communist! He has never done anything, see if you can find his college records. Oops, blocked. Birth certificate, nah. Hawaii gives records of births that take place, not where he was born.
If your judgement of him was poor, you are right on. If he cares so much about people, why does his half brother live in a hut. He had a terrible family lie, both parents left him. The man is a piece of ****.
He says AARP endorses him, NO.
He says the AMA endorses him, NO.
How many lies does he really tell, MANY!
Nurse,
I love nurses, the most caring profession. Are you in the Chicago area? Good luck on Hub. I will try to be your first fan.
The point of this article concerns what is wrong with Obama's health care bill. Rushing the bill through and if the President didn't know that was in the bill. Those are problems.
Hey, the President should know what is in the bill.
"End of Life Counseling"--this sounds disturbing.
Delta, You are correct. To see what Obama is really about google, Saul Alinsky. Obama follows his teachings, he didn't think on his own. He never thinks, just acts or reacts.
If you rush bills through, they can't be read. Just vote with your party, we have the votes. This was the plan of Alinsky, confusion.
Given that the US spends about twice the proportion of GDP on health care than we do and still leaves 45m people uninsured - and a disproportionate number of them are black or Hispanic - I'm not sure what you have to be so proud of, so something else is clearly going on. What I am sure about is that lies are being deliberately spread about the British health system.
Campaign ads in the US have used numerous interviews with British people to belittle the NHS but at least one of those interviewed is now on record saying she was lied to about the purpose of the interview and that her views have been distorted. In other TV coverage I have seen the most outrageous lies about the way the British system works put forward by both US politicians and demonstrators. One person claimed it took 6 months to get a dentist appointment - which is garbage. What is it about the American obsession with British teeth anyway? Is it a folk memory from WW2 (when we didn't have the NHS by the way)?
The Conservative Party nonentity who appeared misrepresented the position we face here and has now been repudiated by his own party leader.
Another interviewee I saw claimed that the UK has the worst death rate and the lowest recovery rate in Europe. Perhaps - but the variation across 'Old Europe' ie excluding the former Soviet Bloc countries is minimal. In practice life expectancy in the UK and most of Europe are marginally better than in the US, while neo-natal death rates are significantly better than in the US. (Source OECD and WHO via BBC)
A host of other stories have surfaced in the US, of which perhaps the most bizarre is the claim that "People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless" to which Prof Hawking responded "I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS, I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived."
You have also calimed that people oer 59 are not given stents - another lie. Growing numbers of patients over 65 with heart conditions are having surgery, including valve repairs and heart bypass surgery, says Professor Peter Weissberg, the British Heart Foundation's (BHF) medical director. For example, the average age at which people have a bypass operation has risen from 58 in 1991 to 66 in 2008. (source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/aug/11/nhs-
I've seen news reports of people holding up Obama posters with Hitler moustaches added. These people have lost touch with reality. Wanting to provide health care is not Nazism - THIS is Nazism
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/iss/library/spec/exhib/witnes
I was born before our NHS started. I was born with a crippling condition known as talipes - otherwise known as club foot. I had to wait until the NHS came into being before it could be treated, and that delay was critical in causing many of the health problems I face some 60 years later. Born in the US, even if I had been covered by my parents insurance as a child, by the time I became an adult no insurance company would have looked at me. Without the NHS, I probably would be dead by now, because of the stresses of the crippled life I would have faced.
Without the NHS I wouldn't have a wife - she has MS and would probably again have died by now without the health and social care we can take for granted here.
Without the NHS I wouldn't have a daughter - my wife had several miscarriages and without NHS treatment she would never have carried a pregnancy to term.
Tell lies about your own country as much as you like but keep out of ours.
Ian, If you looked above you would find an apology to all European people. You got what you wanted, most of us here do not want this, wouldn't you protest?
The forty million Obama speaks of is misleading, as are many things he says. He speaks of endorsement he gets, that he hasn't gotten. He lies to us constantly. The forty million includes over twenty million illegal aliens and many young people that don't believe they will become ill.
Our care does cost more, we need tort reform. Our care is better because of all the premptive care we receive.
The UK health system is not a Rolls-Royce model. People here like to pay low taxes and use their money for other things. A health system which delivers life saving care quickly and non elective care eventually is good enough for the average voter. What voters want is what they get.
Anyone who wants to jump the queues can join one of the non profit making UK private heath insurers like BUPA (one of the most successful companies world wide in heath care).
If you want to see what an expensive health system can do try looking at Germany or France. No waiting lists, choice of treatment times, hospitals and individual doctors.
Health treatment costs in these two countries are still about half the costs in the US per capita.
Apologies, please read elective for non elective in the comment above. Why won't the edit function work today? Or is it me? Lol.
Problem's, always problem's! Our care costs so much because of, tort's and the fact that we do more pre-emptive care. Our doctor's care enough to do a test twice, if they are concerned.
I am turning my attention to what our government is doing to destroy our country. All great powers end up emploding. This is what our democratic party is doing.
Example: Two days ago Obama said our defecit was 7 trillion, yesterday he said it was $9 trillion. Other economist's have placed it over $100 trillion. Do NOT put your money in the dollar, this country is falling fast. Obama has only been in office since January, what else will he do?
Harvey you are obviously very ignorant of other countries health care systems and spread lies about them.
I am a registered nurse and lecturer in health care in the UK and have been working in the British National Health System since 1972. I can catagorically inform you and the other ignorant readers of this post that anyone of any age will get a coronary stent in the UK. Unlike in the US where age and treatment are inextricably linked to the disadvantage of the elderly.
Research before you pontificate you ignoramous.
John,
Thank you very much for the compliments you have stowed upon me, but anon to systems such as yours.
First as a nurse I must ask you a couple of questions.
1- My in the U.K. are 15% of your doctors trained in India and Pakistan?
2- What has happened to R&D on drugs.
Harvey Stelman says:
4 months ago
I changed Nation to National but it was omitted.