Forgiving a Cheater - Staying together After an Affair
96You know your neighbor's having an affair when...
You know your wife is cheating when you come home from work and her car looks like this:
Can the marriage survive?
WHAT IS AN AFFAIR?
I actually got this concept from a very old episode of Oprah. Basically what she said, is that it is cheating if you would behave differently if your partner were watching.
That is an excellent definition. For many people an affair means sex. But for other people an affair is anything flirtatious. For some couples, certain behaviors are totally acceptable, like going to a go-go bar, or flirting online in a chat room. For others, such behavior is cheating. Some couples have an open relationship where they can engage in extra-marital sexual situations, but many of those couples have their own rules, such as - no kissing, no friends, no second times.
It is important to make sure you and your partner agree as to what constitutes unacceptable behavior. What anyone else thinks should have no baring on what you and your partner agree to together. But it is vital that you and your spouse are on the same page where this is concerned.
So, you and your spouse agree on parameters for your own relationship. And your partner breaks that agreement.
Now what?
TYPES OF AFFAIRS
There are many different kinds of affairs.
1 - There is the kind where something stupid happens without premeditation or thought. A bachelor party that goes too far. A drunken night in Vegas. "Oops. Sex Happened. I didn't know what I was doing."
2 - There is the kind where it's all intimacy but no physical sex takes place. Affairs online are probably the most common type of affair. Workmates, partners, online chat-rooms... "Since I didn't actually have sex, it's not cheating."
3 - And then there is the full on affair: planned meeting, purposeful rendezvous. Thoughts, romance, sharing, talking, intimacy and sex, all taking place over a period of time. Premeditated. Lying. Everything. "This isn't just a sexual affair. It is an affair of the spirit, mind, and heart."
AFTER AN AFFAIR
Can you forgive a partner that violates the agreement you've made together regarding cheating? Can the marriage survive in a healthy way? That depends.
The first thing you really need to consider is, what kind of affair it was. Let's bluntly break it down.
1 - If it was an "Oops, sex happens" thing, I think from the three types of affairs I described above, this is the easiest to forgive. I'm not saying it's OK, justified, or acceptable on any level. I'm not even saying I would forgive it. But if anyone were to forgive any kind of cheating, I can understand this one the most.
In this situation, someone's head and heart can still belong to you. The flesh was weak. Stupid. Drunk. An opportunist. In a very general way, I can understand forgiving a mistake. 'Still not saying I would, but I can understand.
2 - If it were the affair I described in the second example, that's much more than "a mistake." It's purposeful deception. An affair someone has with a person online, or a coworker, or some situation where sex doesn't happen but there is an intimacy and sharing of emotions and thoughts, is a much deeper thing. The idea that your partner spent time with this person, thinking about them, planning to be with them, having conversations and secrets, laughing and crying... to me this is much more important than one drunk night where someone's pants fell off.
Another point to be made about this, is that there is no way in hell your partner didn't know they were breaking your heart. Whatever they say, whatever they claim, they had to know it was wrong or they wouldn't have kept it secret. You would have been included in those long conversations or chats, you would have been invited to those meetings, if there really was nothing to hide.
This is not only a betrayal of your vows and promises, it is blatant disrespect to you as a person. They cheated with their head and their heart. To many people, myself included, this is much worse than cheating sexually.
3 - The third situation I described above is the full fledged Affair. The whole big enchilada. Purposeful planned meetings, sex and intimacy, closeness and conversation... an Affair, that goes on over a period of time. The ultimate betrayal of every thing that should mean any thing to your partner.
FORGIVE? FORGET?
Is it possible to forgive and forget that third example? That full fledged purposeful intentional affair of the heart, mind, and body?
I think the better question is, why the hell would you? Why would you even think about taking back someone that is capable of lying to your face over and over and over again. Why would you want to be with someone whose promise means nothing?
If this is where you are, you really need to ask yourself what the real reason is for you to even entertain staying married to this person.
If your reason is "for the children" please think again. Do you really want to teach your children that infidelity is OK, or that lying to people you pretend to love is OK? You aren't showing your kids what it is to forgive; you are only showing your kids what it is to be a doormat.
Any person who grew up as a child in a household that "stayed together for the children" will tell you what I'm saying. I promise - any one of them will back me up. Many books have been written on this subject, on the guilt those children feel when they grow up for the parent's being miserable, on the lessons they take away from living like that. It's the dumbest reason in the world to stay together.
If your reason to want to work it out is that you still love this person, think about what self respect means. Get a little therapy. Take a little time. Think about how this person treated you by lying and cheating. Love is hard, and most of us at one time or another has loved the wrong person. But spending your life with a person that clearly does not love you back is a horrible thing to do to yourself. It's a horrible lesson for your children. It's soul sickening.
Let's make this clear: You deserve to be loved. This person does not love you. No matter what they've said out of guilt or fear, they do not love you.
A HEALTHY EVER-AFTER
The healthy thing to do is not spend time and energy and heartache on a marriage that isn't worth it.
There are reasons as to why your mate cheated. Maybe you married young, maybe he has real emotions for this other person. Maybe she's fucked-up, maybe he's just a coward. Maybe the marital sex hasn't been all that. Maybe kids, finances, illnesses, work pressures, and a million other things are involved.
The problem isn't that "problems" cropped up.
The problem is your mate's CHOICE was to handle the problems by lying and cheating.
A person that promises their life to you, then chooses to be a coward when the going gets tough, is not a person you can have a healthy relationship with. This person demonstrated in the biggest way possible that they do not love or respect you.
Your mate should have come to you. There should have been communication and trust. If after real effort you couldn't work it out, then your mate should have initiated last resort separation proceedings. If your partner was that unhappy, they should have gotten out of the relationship.If they loved and respected you at all, that's what they would have done.
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Comments
Super-curious about your story now, Ren! I hope you post it, and link it here!
Sorry, I am not trying to hijack your Hubs. I did post this on one of your other Hubs, as I said I might. But, since you are requesting it here, then I'll post it here as well. :)
It is something of a stream-of-consciousness...
http://hubpages.com/hub/Once_A_Cheat_Always_A_Chea
Ren, you can post your links on my pages anytime, hon.
Oh, I couldn't stay with someone who cheated. I just couldn't. Good hub!
I love this article. Great pictures. You got a fan!
Woo-hoo! I love it!
You do as well ;)
This is very one-sided article. You cannot tell people who come to this site seeking advice that their partner does not love them. Affairs begin because an emotional need has not been met. Not for lack of love. And if a person is considering repairing a broken marriage, especially if the offender is truly remorseful and wants a change, then who are you to tell them its not worth it?
Excellent article. your advice is always right on.
You would really have to be a total fucking asshole to believe a person that cheats on you loves you. A person that cheats on you has no love for you and no respect for you. I can't even believe that fact has to pointed out to some people. It's sad and pathetic that anyone could be that delusional and gullible as to believe their cheating spouse is sorry.
What I really liked about this article is how well you presented all the different aspects, all the different sides and then stated your opinion. I especially liked how you broke down the different types of cheating. I'm with you in that I think I could forgive a mistake of the flesh. But I am also with you that I could never forgive an affair of the mind.
I'm going through this indirectly right now. My sister's husband cheated on her. It was the kind of affair you described in scenario 3. When she busted him he swore he was so sorry and would stop. Every one she knew warned her not to be that person but she forgave him and stayed in the marriage. I saw his car parked at a sleazy hotel a month after that and I told my sister. Hey, she's my sister. She reasoned it away. Her neighbor told her she saw a woman come to their house after my sister left for work, who was inside with my sister's husband for 2 hours, and left carrying her shoes. But again, she rationalizes with all these reasons to not confront him like the kids and his empty promises. I hate that she's that person. It's hard to think about someone you care about as having no self esteem.
This is a very complex issue and I think you have handled it very skillfully. Good job!
The photos at the top are great. I really like the Oprah definition of cheating. I personally could never forgive a cheater. I would always wonder what they were really doing everytime they walked out the door. Great hub!
This is a kick-ass article. You covered so many different angles. Really well done! And I totally agree with you, any person that stays with a cheater is a fucking fool.
M - you are a fool. Someone who cheats doesn't know how to love. This is an excellent article of truthful advice. You just don't want to hear the truth. If you're the cheater who is sooooo remorseful or if you're the one cheated on lying to yourself about it - either way - you are a misguided ass. ONCE A CHEATER ALWAYS A CHEATER.
Another great tell-it-like-it-REALLY-is article, Veronica!
I did feel at times this article was a bit one sided-perhaps its all the hours of being trained in College to find the most non-biased, objective information and advice to filter opinion....but then again, non-biased, objective information does not exist. However, this article did help me..thank you. The love of my life cheated on me and ive been terribly heartbroken for months now...but the part that spoke to me in the article was..."The problem isn't that "problems" cropped up...The problem is your mate's CHOICE was to handle the problems by lying and cheating." This is a very good point-and even if I took her back i doubt I would ever be able to truly forget about what she did-and what a thorn in a relationship that would be. i almost feel that if i truly love her, knowing that this would only cause jealousy and paranoia-therefore creating problems, grief, and fighting, that not taking her back is the best thing for both me and her....unfortunately :(
The fools are the people who flat out say 'once a cheater, always a cheater' without any facts, or any idea of what contributed to the cheating. people with that mentality will die sad and alone - a habitual cheater is a different story, if it was a mistake and there is true remorse, a second chance is in order, especially if you contributed to the void in the relationship which prompted the other person to seek attention elsewhere.
I think your argument has some merit but is a little simplistic. Please look at this example in your summary.
"Take a little time. Think about how this person treated you by lying and cheating. Love is hard, and most of us at one time or another has loved the wrong person. But spending your life with a person that clearly does not love you back is a horrible thing to do to yourself. It's a horrible lesson for your children. It's soul sickening.
Let's make this clear: You deserve to be loved. This person does not love you. No matter what they've said out of guilt or fear, they do not love you."
The truth is that for many men affairs begin for exactly this reason. They have often spent years in marriages hat are sexless or consist of 90% begrudging sex. Women in the throws of motherhood can go through years with little emotional consideration for men who they see as irritating and demanding overgrown babies. The result of this is that men have normally become tired of and depressed by rejection before they finally decide to reduce their resentment for their spouse and increase their happiness by having an affair.
This often temporarily relieves much of the tension in the mariage until it is discovered in some way or another. The other problem once this has happened is that affairs are fun and addictive and men find it entertaining to actually be perceived as more attractive when they get older.
The secret for the woman is to always remember the man, even through young motherhood, monogamy is about having ONE sexual and emotional partner, not NONE apart from the odd occasion when she is in the right mood. Most men get married because they want to spend their life with a woman. But equally in the middle of the child rearing process men can get scared that they have condemned themselves to a life of emotional and sexual unfulfilment, apart from the odd weekend away maybe twice a year. Women who focus just on men's sex drives should actually focus more on their emotional drives, that is the key to keeping a man and rejecting him is the key to losing him as rejection is VERY hard to forgive.
Speaking as a man who has had, and been discovered or confessed to having, a number of affairs I can say that for me it is better to feel like a BASTARD RAT than to feel SULKING REJECTED and EMANCIPATED.
What saddens me is that I only ever wanted a good marriage and had never been unfaithful to anyone in my life until 12 years into my marriage. But since my patience snapped and I decided to look elsewhere I have not looked back and although I feel very comitted to my wife in a life sense, I am really struggling to let her back into my heart in a romantic sense... I guess this is a mixture of guilt and resentment.
In conclusion affairs destroy the romance of marriage in an irrepairable way and they break the purity of the relationship forever. Then again life is more than just marriage and providing the love between two individuals is strong enough the loss of the fantasy romance element does not necessarily mean that the relationship has run it's course, it just means it has changed into something different.
Personally my biggest disappointment of this modern era is that the value of simple loyalty and perserverance has been totally overlooked. To me for anyone in a mariage with children to leave someone because they have met someone else is so selfish and short sighted. This happens mostly because the affair has got such bad press in modern western culture, but actually what affairs give society is a more stable family base with far less broken marriages and much more realistic expectations. If myself and my wife manage to ride out our problems over time and we have now been together nearly 20 years. This affairs bit will be a small phase in the middle like the bit when I was unhappy before it.
To me for any marriage where one of the partners has become very unhappy for some time having an affair but staying ultimately loyal to the original partner has more virtue than walking out on your children in the hope that you might find something better.
The biggest damage that divorces bring to society is the increased expectations in children of divorce that their relationship will fall apart too.
Once a cheater, always is cheater. It amazes me that anyone would argue that. That comment from Mark really cracked me up. "people with that mentality will die sad and alone"
Ummm, no, Mark. People with that mentality will not waste their lives with a liar. People with that mentality will be with mates that won't cheat on them.
I just wanted to say that this is a hard pill to swallow. Maybe because I am the forgiver not the forgivee. I have always believed in love. I have always had the attitude that I would face life head on no matter what. However, I find myself in a marriage that my husband cheated on me this time last year right before Christmas. Now I struggle with the fact that things are not what I thought they would have been. I thought his remorse would have pushed him to do more in the way of at least working on our wounded marriage. Not the case. He pushes me further and further away and now I feel more alone and lonely than ever before. We are not even good friends. We don’t laugh or make love like we used to. It is not the same. I love my husband, however it may have been better if I would have just walked away like the article suggest.
It's difficult to people to let go of a long relationship. If one cheats, it requires a big effort to let go. Many continue to be in the relationship, in a self-imposed blindness.
Though I feel that a second chance should be given, if you love that person that much.
There's no need of a third chance.
I heard an Indian actor say that he was faithful for lack of opportunity. So to remain faithful, he eliminated all such situations in his lifestyle. Boring, but he could ensure a happy marriage.
Thanks, your hub set me, and so many others above me in the comments section, thinking.
Oh Boy Oh My there are many many trueth in your Hub my dear, I totally agree a liar and cheater is not a person to spend your time with. I gave my 33 year love a whole year to think about it, to change his ways, to think about the passionate love we shared for 32 years....
After that I asked him to please move out and go live with her.Which he did. I'm not saying it wasn't one of the hardest things I've had to do...but one of the most necessary things I had to do. Time heals, hearts mend and love can come again.
I forgive him, I will never forget our times shared, but also will never forget the pain,and sorrow, but am now healed (almost) and moving on with my life, more learned, a bit wiser and you know what else I AM BACK. G-Ma :O)
Good for you G-Ma! Thanks so much for your comment. It certainly is inspiring and encouraging for anyone struggling with the same decision you had to make.
Happy New Year
Why we people can't admit that both men and women are *not* wired for life-time monogamy, and adjust our expectations accordingly?
When we stop thinking of our spouse as our property, life becomes happier tenfold...
Oh You Misha..no one said property..did they? But being honest and truethful are an importtnat part of any relationship...in my humble opinion..And who knows what is ahead of any of us..Just dealing with the pain and hurt is rough..but knowing I can go on , go forward and be happy is a bit of help..You act so tough my dear..I bet you are as soft as any of us...G-Ma :O)
G-Ma, sure I'm as soft as everybody around. :)
And I'm talking from my personal experience... I know that converting one's thinking and feeling takes quite a lot of pain and effort, cause I've been through this. I know it is doable, cause I did it. And I know that reward is worth it, cause I live a different life now :D
MISHA - Thanks for the comments. I would really appreciate your thoughts as well, on a blog I just wrote that deals directly with what you're saying.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Threesomes-Pros--Cons
I hope you'll take the time to read it and comment. Thanks, Misha!
G-Ma, I just want to hug you, you're adorable.
Veronica,
I read the hub you mentioned. I like it :) I even tried to comment there - but I couldn't. It just does not fit my life experience, and anything I could possibly say there would be a pure speculation :)
What I preach - and my wife preach - and what is directly related to this particular hub - is to allow your partner to have as many affairs as he/she needs. You don't have to bend your nature to stay with one partner all the time, and you don't have to lie. We both know about any affair as it unfolds. And I agree to you wholeheartedly - this is not an affair what breaks the family, this is lie what does it...
Funny enough, we did not have any affairs since we got kids - I guess we just don't have time for this now :D
Misha,
I applaud you!!
Thank you for reading my hubs, I appreciate it. I had the feeling that, even though we're living life differently, that we actually agree on the true nature of things. And I knew you'd have value imput. I LOVE that you and your wife have found what works for you. I love that you have honesty. I love that you do not conform to what other people think is acceptable.
The only things I preach are honesty and communication. Thank you so much for *getting* that. You are exemplary.
Best to you and yours,
Veronica
This Hub gives good truthful advice. It's not easy truth to hear, which is why it's garnered such reactions.
I don't think Misha's response invalidates the Hub, because someone who is having an affair in the full knowledge of their partner isn't cheating. You're only cheating if you're doing something in secret, because you're not giving your partner a chance to make the choice.
Like the guy who posted about having multiple affairs as the only way of staying in his marriage. I agree with him, that many women are their own worst enemies - as soon as the babies come along, they transfer all their attention to them, and think their husband should too. But cheating is not the answer!
What a hell to find yourself in. Each partner tolerating the other for the sake of staying with the children. Do you really think the kids haven't noticed? They're learning about relationships from your behaviour - do you want to stuff up their future too? If you couldn't talk to your wife about it, how about going to a counsellor? By yourself first, to help you find the words to persuade your wife to join in.
Thanks for your comment Marissa. I caught some of Dr Phil just today regarding people that stay married for the children. He said, "Most children would rather be from a broken home, then IN one." I completely agree with him. I think people that claim they are staying together for the kids are doing a horrible diservice to thier children. I also think most of them know it, but are cowards using that as an excuse. I agree with Misha about most things. I think I've been very clear in my HUBS about affairs - The problem is not loving two people, or sleeping with multiple people. The problem is the lying. I agree it is a shame if a new mother puts all her energy into the kids and changes everything so much that the husband becomes miserable. I agree that's wrong, and grounds to rethink the marriage. However, I also agree that cheating isn't the answer. Anyone that justifies his cheating and lying with that bullshit, and then claims he is doing the noble thing by staying for the sake of the children, is seriously in need of psychiatric help. You're right Marisa, what a hell that would be to find yourself in, tolerating each other and pretending it's the best thing for the kids.
Ladies,
I was not trying to invalidate the hub, and I'm sorry if it looked that way. I was suggesting a different approach to the problem, the only one that can really solve it - I believe :)
Misha,
Your message came through. I didnt think you were trying to invalidate the hub at all. I agree with your thinking and I'm always happy to see you've commented. Thanks for checking in ;)
Sorry if that came out wrong, Misha, I go the message too - I just wasn't sure other people would.
Ahh... i love it when we're all polite and insightful, having an intelligent exchange.
**feeling the love**
I enjoyed the insights in your article. Well said. I'm amused at the back and forth with Misha. My ex boyfriend was Ruski. It was fine for him to have all three kinds of affairs. We tried to be more open at one time, to solve this. But when I told him that I went on a simple date where we only danced but did not even kiss or hold hands, he flipped out. He ranted at me for about two hours saying, "How could you do this?!" It is a different mentality there. In some places of Russia, there are six times as many women as men. The women are desperate to have husbands and put up with cheating behavior because, as one Ruska softly and sadly told me, "What choice do we have? Where can we go?" My ex actually tried to get me to accept the fact that he was going to go back to Russia to marry a very young virgin picked out by his mother. He said, "She is only a wife - for having children with." I hope he is not representative of all Russian men.
You hit the nail Sally, this is exactly what I was trying to convey here :D
We all pick our own poison, I think. for the Russian man it my be a very young virgin, unless you are a very young virgin yourself, who would want to go through what he is setting himself up for? He must be terribly insecure and strange. Who allows their mother to pick out a bride? They are both in a fantasy world.
The truth is, the virgin is actually trying to get out of Russia and who wouldn't? In a year she won't be so compliant when she sees herself in demand by younger, wealthier, and more intelligent men or, she my decide to put herself on the internet and find a man 'more worthy."
One thing is certain, when people are looking to exploit others they may find the tables turned on them--for surely what comes around definitely goes around.
The man who says he wants an open relationship is really saying, love me unconditionally, even though I cheat. I may say it is all right for the two of us to cheat but when push comes to shove, he really feels like he should be the only one.
When they finally present for counseling, an experienced therapist may easily identify that a cheating relationship is going nowhere but into the mud. The object of the therapy is not necessarily to try and repair the irreparable, but to identify exit strategies that do the least harm to innocent parties. It's almost certain the lifestyles of the partners will change significantly, but more so the woman, who, being the child rearer, has the children and may have to learn to live on a whole lot less.
Your post, along with all the comments caught my eye. Excellent. Thank you.
Umm, I'm trying to understand - why you are stuck with discussing russian men as top cheaters? Is it something that is widely known in US and kept as a top secret from us russians? ;)
This is a tough one, I understand Misha's point on one hand, as far too many of us go into a relationship with a determined mind set and expectations which often times are unrealistic, on the other hand, I am a girl who demands respect and would not tolerate the #3 scenario, however I have been through #1 and was able to forgive and totally forget, beside, to prove his loyalty, he painted his car in bright neon pink with the words "I love you Chantel". He drove around with that for weeks unitl his dad finally told him it was time to take it off. Of course that was 15 years ago, we married and seperated after 10 years, but we are still the best of friends. Go figure!
Well, I've read over several of the items above and I have to say that unless you'be been through #3 you really can't say anything. I HAVE and the past year has SUCKED! NO the past 14 years that lead up to the affair SUCKED. But so much lead up to my partners affair. Married young, kids to young, fu**ed up childhoods, me being BLIND and pretending all was perfect, not to mention the fact that on the job someone tried to take my partners life! I'm not going to make excuses for what he\she did but our life sucked for a long time. We thought we knew what we were doing. We talked more than you could know but we NEVER talked about the things that mattered to our marriage. THe affair lasted 4 months and almost destroyed our life. Some people believe that love is conditional, I think had my spouse not believed this then the affair wouldn't have gone so far but who knows. We have worked out our problems and are doing great, my problem is that my partner seems to have found strengths and faith and I have lost so many of mine. I feel we swaped roles!! I don't want to make the same mistakes, I do love my spouse and I do believe he/ she has changed because he/she is NOT the same person! He/She is the person I always saw, BUT where did I GO!!
Can you answer that instead of calling people stupid. Until you walk in someones shoes you can't judge them.
OH and when a marriage goes bad, the cheating spouse didn't get to that road alone. The hurt spouse has to take responsability for what they did. NO I'm not saying they has anything to do with the affair that was the cheaters CHOICE but a bad marriage takes two on some levels.
My husband had an affair 8 years ago for almost one year. It was the most painful thing i have ever gone through. Today the pain is still there, he never explained why in all these years. Our sex life has never recovered. I have decided to leave him. The hardest thing for me is to forgive! He never showed remorse and to this day I feel like I am just here because he is 58 years old and he does not want to loose his financial freedom! So to make a long story short, don't do what I did and stay in amarriage that has been betrayed by everything a marriage should be "TRUST".
I never been married but my boyfriend had affair .And my dad had affair on my mom she put up with it for years .He spent all the money .mom work hard and he beat her .he had no love for us .My left one night after dad beat her and she never married .She died 2 years ago . and I still remember how he treated her my opinion affair should never be forgiven
Doesn't anybody believe in the old adage that "once a cheater, always a cheater" anymore? It takes a certain type of person to go out and cheat on someone that they claim to love and then come back as if nothing has ever happened. I gave my ex-wife the benefit of the doubt when she broke down and told me she went out on a date with a co-worker. She talked as if she was made the biggest mistake of her life. I fell for it. Part of me was wondering if she was just testing my forgiveness. We were divorcing 2 months later when I found out that she was having a full blown affair for over 3 months, and she had zero remorse! I will never go through anything like that again.
I offer another side. Yes, you can forgive and forget. Not every cheater is a back-biting, cruel, slut, whatever. Sometimes the relationship is broken. If that's the case, it's the fault of BOTH people, not one. And things that are broken can be fixed. My wife cheated on me and I - thank God - asked myself, why? What had I done to push or let her away? It was the right question 'cause we then asked many more. I wouldn't trade the depth of relationship we have because we worked our GUTS OUT to fix our marriage for anything.
I love the smeared dust on the car. classic. as far as the russia virgin incident - you're better off without him!
I also agree that there is different "levels" of cheating. we should come up with a color coded system, like, he's a code red cheater, cut off his balls!
And she is a code red cheater, cut off her boobs? :D
Mommagus & Misha: That would solve the problem in both cases. You guys are brilliant! I think you've come up with a fail-proof system. A few of those, and the infidelity rates should drop drastically.
Wish I'd known about it a few years ago, I might still be married to a (ball-less)code red.
This is for everyone in the process of figuring it all out:
Autobiography in Five Short Chapters
By Portia Nelson
I
I walk down the street.
THere is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in
I am lost...I am helpless It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.
II
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in the same place.
But it isn't my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.
III
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it there.
I still fall in...it's a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.
IV
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.
V
I walk down another street.
That was good.. I loved it. G-Ma :o) hugs HAPPY EASTER
It sadden me to read some of the comments posted. My husband and I have been together for 19 years and 6 months ago he hooked up with a women from his past. I was in school and working on our future and really didn't have much time to worry when my husband said he was feeling all alone. I knew something was going on and after 3 and half months I called him on his game. The truth came out and I was devastated. We are now in counseling and he understands that what he was feeling was felt, but it was not real.
I know that he is truly sorry for what he did. Looking back he says that it is the thing he regrets the most. We struggle daily to try and rebuild what we BOTH helped mess up. I do not in any way condone what he did, but I think our marriage is worth saving.
You may call me a fool, but each marriage must be looked at for it's individuality and judged that way. My husband was terrific through 18 1/2 years and he made a mistake. He must live with the guilt of what he did and I must live with the pain. I would say that if we can be happy for another 18 1/2 years than the emotions that we are going through now are well worth it.
No one should be judged because they chose to give their spouses another chance. One chance only though. If this were to happen again then I know it was a mistake and I would leave him.
i am currently trying to forgive my girlfriend, after finding her in a local hotel with a co-worker. my first response was to throw her out, but after three days I let her come back. i dont know how long the sex part had been going on but became suspicious one nite when i went to pick her up from work because i had her car. i waited for an hour when she called to let me know she was at home but couldnt get in cause i had her keys. her coworker that i caught her with had brought her home and red flags went up, and i questioned her, she denied anything was going on. hers was definitly a #3 affair. the reason I let her back was because I had to be man enough to admit that i was partly to blame,trying to heal now. we'll see how it goes. the trust is the tough one, the love Is still there
Dave
Thanks for the comment. I'm impressed with your strength and candidness.
The only advice I'd offer to you is based on the trust statement you made. The real problem isn't so much the affair as it is the lie. That is where you need to focus your efforts now. You said you were partly to blame. I don't know your circumstances specifically but I understand that sometimes it takes two. However, the fact that she chose to lie instead of to tell you that you had messed up and driven her to a certain point, is the issue. I hope you can heal, whatever that turns out to be for you.
Best of luck.
thank you veronica
i am glad you didnt tell me that im being stupid and naive. at 53 its not the 1st time a #3 has happened to me. my part in this whole thing was that I was not giving all of myself to the relationship, trying to protect myself and my daughter. basically I was keeping our relationship a secret, so in a way I was also guilty of lying. she felt that the scope of our relationship was great sex and nothing more, i'm not hiding us any more, she needed to know that she meant more to me than that...I cant blame her for that...
btw ,I fully intend to let you all know how this turns out for us. its only been 3 weeks since i caught her, and only now am beginning to be able to be at least a shadow of the real me. I have already been through most of the phases that are similar to having a loved one die way too soon...self pity, anger, deep sense of loss, guilt, and over compensation in trying to ACT normal as if everything is ok. went through the same thing when my mom died at the age of 58. I have hope...but my eyes are wide open. I am a very intuitive person, and wont be fooled again, not that I was at all fooled the first time, just needed the proof...she's not a very good liar!
I think it's great that she's a bad liar! The obvious reason aside, being bad at something usually deters one from doing it. People that ski badly don't ski. People who take lousy photos tend not to take photos. Bad liars tend not to do it. Thanks for keeping us posted Dave, I hope you continue to do so. Agan - focus on the honesty and communication. Best to you.
yes, yes, yes! I totally agree! you have great insight veronica! I totally am thankful for your support, and wisdom...glad there is someone like you for support in these heart wrenching situations...thanks again!
I think whether a relationship can survive an affair depends a lot on whether the cheater ended the affair first and admitted his/her error, and wants to heal the relationship with you, or whether you catch them and they end it because they can no longer get away with it. If they end it because you catch them, their apologies and regrets are likely motivated only by the fact that they got caught and they don't want to face your wrath or the legal consequences such as a divorce. If they only ended it because they got caught, it means they would have continued if you didn't know about it which in turn means 1) you can't trust they won't continue the affair and just try to hide it better 2) start a new affair later with someone else and try not to get caught the next time.
quotations, you are absolutely right and I guess that is why I am still being cautious. as you know, they were caught, but after 53 yrs. one thing I have learned is that there are exceptions to every rule...nothing in life is cut and dry...perhaps if she would have come forward, told me of the affair, and that it was over it would have been much easier to forgive and forget (I've already been there with her). It is still a struggle, and I am not going into this with blinders on, internally I question every word she speaks, and every move she makes and quite frankly to this point am not convinced that shit aint still going on....if it is, I'll catch her, the town I live in is way too small to get away with much. am giving her a sense of security, which will make it easier for her to make a mistake and for me to catch her...I give it 3 months, and if by then she hasnt convinced me its done and over, I'll move on, and I will be nice and honest about it. as I said I will keep you all posted on the outcome of this thing...thanks for your thoughts, all input helps!!1
Once a Cheat always a Cheat! I would and will not forget get that! So the answer is I would ask.... Paper or Plastic? To throw his stuff out!
I understand completely where you are coming from, up until 6 months ago i agreed and believed the same. Sometimes life dosent work out the way it should, and people make horrible, horrible mistakes. I have been married for 12 roller coaster years, married young, i got all the excuses, but i had an affair, not a fling, not a one night drunken stand, buyt the "whole enchilada" and was going to actually leave my husband and start a life with this other person. Then it happened, i relized through this affair that I was making a huge mistake, and i truly love my husband and am so sorry i am chosing to confess to him and beg his forgiveness, praying that he is a better person than I would be if the situation was reversed. i have all the excuses, i had only been "with" my husband, ignored, older spouse who wasnt attracted to me ect. The fact is it was, and is my fault. But maybe there can be hope after the affair, maybe that "slap in the face" can make a person really love their spouse more? Just a thought. The fact is cheating has existed since relationships and marriage were created, it happens, it is how a couple choses to deal with it that is up to them, not anyone else, People can change, especially when they have done something so terrible, if there was no remorse why bother trying to salvage! Once a cheater always a cheater isnt ALWAYS the case.
nothing in life is cut and dry, I have forgiven my girlfriend, we are trying to move forward. the hard part is the honesty issue...if you are truly sorry and, you are being honest with yourself, your husband is going to need a long time to heal and, you will need to be patient with him. he will be very insecure and he may do some things that will be hard for you to accept...but you must give him this time to search out the truth in his way. remorse alone is not going to be enough to heal the pain he will be feeling...saying that you are so sorry, will not be enough. you now need to totally open a transparency that allows him to know exactly what you are doing, at all times. privacy for now is history for you at least until he heals...I wish you all the hope and prayers of success in your marriage...it is always worth the effort no matter the outcome
am reporting on my situation, progress has been made, but god its painful. I had to tell her I don't yet trust her, that I'm watching every move she makes, and listening to every word she says, that I am going forward with eyes wide open. she was actually, to my surprise OK with that...she is actually trying to be more transparent. unfortunately at dinner the other nite she got a call from an old "friend" and she cut the call short...she did not lie about who it was and admitted that the call was cut short because she knew it would bother me and she did not want a setback...I'm pretty sure the call was innocent enough, but am not totally sure...thats the hard part of this whole trust issue. I cannot deny her right to have male friends, its just separating the friends from the potential affairs that is driving me crazy...trying very hard to deal with this thing without being anal about everyone she talks to. now I find out that she has a female co-worker who would love to do the wild thing with her...how much more complicated can this get before I just say fuck it and move on? any help out there?
Dave
There are certain lines. Lines that once crossed, can never be uncrossed.
The problem isn't in the sex, or the love. It isn't in the lack of. It isn't in the growing.
The problem is the lying.
It's hard to offer you advice when I only have the facts as you've presented. From what you've said it really sounds as if she's trying. But if you're this miserable, I don't know that it's worth it.
One small piece of advice I can offer concerns the friendships. You said, you can't deny her her male friends. Well, I think you can. I think considering the circumstances, you have every right to make an agreement on this- a temporary treaty. Many couples in the early stages of building trust make temporary arrangements concerning all kinds of things to help them relax and be open. These thigns relax in time. If she's really committed, I don't think it's alot to ask of her. Both of you could contact your opposite sex friends (and her hot female coworker) and say, "I need us to take a break right now. I hope you can respect my request. I'm working hard on a big trust issue in a my most important relationship, and this is something we are doing for each other. It's just for right now, it has nothing to do with you, I hope you can be the friend that I need and just give me the space I'm asking for, just for a little while to help my partner and I get through our toughest time."
Real friends will respsect that. Often just the effort of it is enough. It's also a great way to see what friends are actually supportive, understanding, good ones, and which ones have ulterior motives. Maybe every relationship doesn't have to do this, but yours is different. She cheated on you. She changed the rules. You're allowed to ask for support while you work at repairing the damage. You're not asking for friendships to end. You're asking for time. You're allowed.
And Dave, here's a clear flag: if she can't do this for you, your answer as to when t say fuck it should be clearer.
Keep us posted...
veronica, once again you seem to hit the nail on the head for me. I was always told trust no one till theyve earned it...I've always done the exact opposite, I trust everyone until they give me a reason not to. doing it my way I've been bitten in the ass in many relationships, romantic and otherwise. you would think I would have learned by now, but in my heart I have got to believe that the good people outnumber the bad, and that even the good ones are not perfect...make bad decisions...so need a break, I need only look in the mirror to accept this, lord knows I've made many bad decisions in my life and have lied to people that I never wanted to hurt. I really am having a hard time with this one though, probably because in the past I always just closed the book...for some reason I need to see the end of this story...hope its a happy ending. thx for your time and words of wisdom.
All cleaned up.
Thanks for checking back in Dave. Anytime, you're welcome here.
Best.
what if they was high on cocaine? my girl went to a party and she got drunk and they talked her in to cocaine and her mind was somewhere else...she told me about it and she didnt want someone else telling me so she went ahead and was brave enough to tell me....does this mean she wants things to work out instead of throwing it away?
cocaine doesnt make you stupid, she must have known that someone found out who she knew, cared more about you than her...perhaps she was given a choice and decided that it would be better to tell you herself...if she is a party animal, and young, yuo're probably better off without her. I could never accept drunk on cocaine as an excuse for infedelity. I've been drunk and on cocaine and always knew exactly what I was doing. perhaps there was some other drugs involved...sorry I cant give better advice...need more info on your situation to better help you. as far as my situation goes things are at a point where I am getting closer to really know exactly what happened. gal I'm seeing has some major commitment issues due to her own history...am very close to accepting that our situation was totally due to a combination of two fucked up lives. we're both good people who got wrapt up in history instead of the moment, and afraid of the future. we are being more open with each other than ever before and have both agreed to put each others opposite sex friends on hold for the time being till we get this thing worked out. It's great to feel that we are moving forward...but we are far from the end of it.
well i kinda pissed her off because she was talking to alot of guy friends and i was joking and i called her a whore and she took it to heart. we left each other that night and she was really hurt. she thought i was going to be one of them guys that get jealous because she has had guys that called her a whore and they meant it. she was very very sorry and she almost was crying. man i love her alot and that day something stopped me from walking away. it wasnt that she had the face either. it was just something that stopped my morals of cheating because they was very strong and i couldnt walk away like i did every other girl. she has been through hell her entire life and everyone has looked down on her. i held her and told her that i refused to give up on her but i asked her not to do it again and she hugged me and cried... now i dont know what happened that day. i dont know if you believe in God or not. we just misunderstood each other thats all. when she got high it increased the emotions and things got out of hand. shes now right with God because she went to the alter sunday and she gave it all up for me. right now i have alittle trust issue but in my heart i have faith in God that he will make us stronger and that she will learn to tell me how she feels before leaving me for the day. we both are in love with each other and i understand her past. everyone has left her because no one taught her that it is wrong to get revenge for something like that. i was honestly joking with her but she took it the wrong way. im slowly gaining trust in her now because we held each other at the alter and she laid her head on my shoulder and cried her eyes out. maybe i opened her eyes by not leaving her like everyone else did.
I believe in a higher power....I dont call it god anymore and i believe it lives inside each of us. calling a woman a whore is very disrespectful even in jest. expect bad things every time you do it. you are very lucky that she came back to you at all. as far as i'm concerned, the only thing she needs to be taught, is to consider carefully wether or not she really needs to be with someone so shallow and thoughtless, to even in jest use such a filthy tag. as far as i can see you need to grow up and treat your lady with R.E.S.P.E.C.T. you're very lucky that this other guy was probably just as immature as you. I hate to be harsh, but you really need to take a good look at yourself and admit that YOU, caused this. not cocaine, not alcohol, but your mouth. give me a break, no one taught her that it was wrong to get revenge for what you called her? in my opinion the only wrong thing she did was go back to you. NEVER EVER JOKE that way again and someday you just be forgiven...I wish you luck with your life...
btw kevin,
it takes a big man to admit he screwed up, can you do it? you should let her know that you understand that it was your fault for what happened and tht you are grateful that she loves you enough to forgive you...I'm pretty sure that you have plenty of female friends too. and between you and me...I really have a hard time believing that there was'nt some jealousy behind your joke...I'm a man who knows how mens minds work...
Kevin - you were just "joking around" when you called her a whore?????? If any man said that to me, he'd be dumped so fast he wouldn't know what hit him. I'd never talk to him again. It's not something it's possible to joke about. ANY woman would find that deeply, deeply offensive. She was silly to take revenge the way she did, but Dave's right - you were the one who triggered off the chain reaction.
i know and we worked it out. i hold her now...she seems to be happy too. she sings to me a lot now that we've gotten past it and moved on. she loves me a lot. i love her a lot too. now i know that i did wrong first. i just never forgave a cheater before...somehow i did her. i love her with all my heart and i know she wants to do right. we are in church now and we are getting closer. im starting to trust her too because shes in church. God will move in our lifes. i have faith in it. im not a bad guy either...i was really joking around. i do that with some of my friends that are girls and they joke around too so i figured well ya know. no sense of making excuses for myself. what happened happened and she didnt throw me away and i didnt her. God must have wanted us to be.
and they was a little jealousy behide dave. ive always hated jealousy but ive been hurt too much to trust anyone and i get sick and tired of being good to girls and have them do me like they do. but hey thats life right? idiots do stupid things. either remain idiotatic about somethings to be stupid about all. i wont lie i was jealous. its just happened to me too much not to be ya know? but i am not now. i learned not to do that again and your right Marisa i did screw up and she should have dumped me in a heartbeat. but she didnt so that must mean she loves me...i must love her to still be with her. we are starting to get to tell each other what we like and do not like. things will work out i know it. We've both been hurt a lot. i didnt mean to hurt her if i did. i just didnt want anyone to take her away from me because him and his friends was trying to get her to travel with them and she said that she would if it wasnt for her kids. hearing that hurt me....i guess thats what started off. i just dont want us to end over being pissed off. it shows that we have commiment instead of giving up. is that a good thing?
but hey i do treat girls right. i really do. its something i believe strong about. i exspect if im going to do right then they shouldnt act like they like every guy they see or if they do then to not show it. that hurts a lot when you see ur girl hugging a guy she doesnt even know. makes you wonder sometimes. but i want to forget about it. i dont want to talk about it no more because i want things to work out and so does she and its best to never mention it again. i screwed up and we are together. we love each other very much still and im looking forward to hearing her sing to me again. thanks for you guys. id probilly go crazy if i didnt have anyone to talk to about this. i know your random ppl but you guys know your stuff. Thank You So Much. laterz
to kevin,
you sound very young to me, I hope you have learned a valuable lesson but I cant be sure that you have. you say you dont want to think about it, dont want to talk about it, but you really do need to think and talk about it or you are doomed to repeat the same shit over and over again.
I would sugget that for one thing, you need to cease calling her a cheater, you said in your second post that you left each other, and assume that meant that you were basically broke up, which I would expect under the circumstances, you also said that you are only now sharing your likes and dislikes....hmmm. how much in love could you be if you are only just getting to know each other? Love at first sight? I don't beieve in that, but i do believe that either you are attracted to people or not. you may have an infatuation, and you're obviously very posseve, deadly combination for a relationship...some people are just huggy by nature...I know plenty of people who are, and that does'nt mean they want fuck em all...its kind of like a handshake but feels better. that was something I had to learn when I was younger because like you I was very jealous, possessive, and if my gal even looked at another guy, I'd dream up all kinds of crap that simply was'nt true.
in A.A. we all hold hands, we hug, and we're complete strangers...we don't all have an orgy after a meeting...get it?
another thing...you now admit that you really were jealous and then out of the other side of your mouth you continue to say that you were joking...dude, you were not joking...you are sending mixed signals to us, so I have to believe that you are sending mixed signals to her...and who's idea was it to go to church? from what you've wrote it's your idea...have you asked for counseling from your pastor,reverend or priest? I don't think you have or you would have shared that. makes me feel that the poor lady your with is very insecure,leans on you heavily and you are prolly a control freak. you are not going to fix a damn thing sitting in a pew, listening to a sermon, and singing to each other. feels good at the moment but once its over, its back to the same old thing, for me church once a week ,is once a week spiritual masturbation...sorry. unless you live it 7 days a week, that is all it is. I am 53, and closer to 54, and still make mistakes...still learning...if you think you've got it all worked out now, and if you really believe that going to church is going to fix it all, I am sorry for you. mostly because of one thing you said which was and I quote" she went to the altar Sunday and she gave it all up for me"...dude, the altar is for giving it all up for Christ!!! Not kevin.
HI,
I was a cheater, I had an affair for 8 months. My girlfriend found out and of course I broke her heart; I wasn't just a cheater mind you I was a general bad sort, estranged from my family, selfish, uncaring, you name it. I seen first hand what someone like me could do to antother person and it made me think that no individual deserves to abuse such a power, the power to break a heart.
My heart broke too deservedly and I decided to change the person I was. I became a Christian and have completely left my past behind, including most friends and social life. My girlfriend loved me loads and thankfully she took me back.
Now this isn't a happy story, and it certainly isn't a preach; I still did those terrible things and nothing can change that. I just think to say "once a cheater always a cheater" is a little unfair. People (some) do change and sometimes there can be a future.
leigh,
i know i been doin a bit o preachin, but none 4 u, amazin that she stuck with u after an 8 month affair...but I do believe people can change...hope u have really got a handle on who u really want to be for her and you...tell me more...how old are r u? how "bad" do u feel u r etc. been doin a lot of soul searching myself...pls tell me more about u would like 2 know...a friend always, and to kevin too! kevin...I know I've been abit hard on you but, I think theres always hope for everyone....even you, just wanted to share with you some stuff I know for sure. veronica needs to jump in on your story cause I'd really like to read her take on your particular situation...veronica....you there? would really like to know your view on kevins story....yours, dave
Oh I'm here as always, dave. But I'm not going to comment on this one ;)
understood, hope you dont think I was too hard on kevin, there are some things I feel very strongly about...I think a lot of guys dont have enough respect for women like they're somehow above them...I would'nt be where I am without the women that have been in my life for better or worse...I spent a good deal of my childhood on the sidelines listening to what the girls said about guys and what bothered them hoping that it would make me a better partner. of course that was just a dream, the female is a very complicated human and men are simpletons, superficial, selfish, oh so many things I never wanted to be. Dont get me wrong....theres lots of great guys out there, but I feel that they're far and few between. I would like men to appreciate women for the wonderful people they are. I would like it to be a perfect world too but I know it will never be, so I have no choice but to continue on my journey, stumbling along, spilling my guts , hoping someone like you will come along and keep me from drowning in the cesspool of crap we call life. I am grateful for you, your honesty and the breath of fresh air you give all of us lost souls, again, thank you Veronica.
dave
My husband cheated..im trying to forgive..but how do i when he has admitted that he enjoyed himself when in the act...how do you work past the fact that he enjoyed the sex...how do i compair now..i feel destroyed sexually..like my body was not good enough...like i lack something...he has told me it was 100% his fault.........he says sex with me ment more.....all i think is "ya but you enjoyed the sex" how am i to feel like i matter....
Hey Unsure. ALL SEX IS ENJOYABLE cheating or not. So at least he was honest right? If he said he felt something more that probably means he felt love with you but not the person he cheated with. Hit anything?
preying will help us get through this stuff. i went to the alter tonight and i was relieved of everything that has been going on. i gave it to God. dave i know that u probilly are going to say something but dont. God is the only power i believe in and if it wasnt for him id be dead and so would my mom and dad. thanks for the advice though. i shall come to you guys every now and then to hang out and talk about this issue so that we can gather the best understanding possible.
Hi dave I am 26, I was 24 when my girlfriend found out, 23 when it happend. I felt bad like you wouldn't know, but I knew it was my fault for everybodies feelings. It was a slow process I didn't suddenly change overnight but I don't feel bad at all anymore because it changed me for the better and given me and my girlfriend a life. Of course I would have rathered I had changed without causing so much pain and destruction, but I have/will rebuild many bridges. I am also very aware that this is a rare thing and that most couples simply cannot survive the type of thing I did.
Cheating can be very hurtful. Even if your the person cheating. My girl felt really bad for cheating on me but I told her I understood. You need to ask your mate why they cheated instead of just walking away and telling them off. If they are sensear then they probably wasnt in the right mind. Remember we are not perfect in this world. We regret many many many many things. But its the corrections we make that makes us who we are. Not what we used to be.
Dave,
I am really interested in finding out what happens with your relationship in 6 months from now. My bet is it will be devestating. It sucks when you love someone so much and know that the two of you are perfect for eachother, but some people just have issues and life is too short.
here we go
my messed up story sounds very similiar. got together young (raised her child as my own) had a child of our own, got married, spent the last 15 yrs together. FELL APART! I ve always been a good provider,faithful with the promise that if we were ever to cheat WE would just leave 1st then do what we had to do(thought we had a mutual understanding on things! )MY STORY; I/WE was going through some employment issues for about a year. long story short-we quit talking and touching. come nov 30 she comes home from work and starts blasting me about bills and christmas and what we were gonna do. I didnt have a plan. She left all the money at her moms before she shows up and had made arrangements for another vehicle and told me if i was leaving i need to take the truck and go. SO i head off. went out that night to blow off some steam, ended up at another womans house and we stayed up talking and drinking the entire weekend. nothing more. Wife shows up sunday at my place and ask where ive been.TOLD HER EVERYTHING. speeds off thought we were finished. following weekend sex follows. another weekend SAME but knew this isnt what I wanted. New Years broke it off and wanted nothing more than my WIFE and Family. Would of done anything for her to forgive me. months pass,my wife and I continue to talk about why I did it and how wrong it was and we have sex here and there during this time. We work it out , NOW comes the funny part! We had plans 1 night when i get a call from her saying she has to work over. Somthing didnt seem right. find out shes not at work but having dinner with another man . I can forgive after what I ve done.....right? So we move back in. couple days later her phone rings its him and she proceeds to tell me how she met this guy new years and has been sleeping with him since.I can forgive since she tells me that i m the one who caused this.....right ? well now she has my curiosity peeked so I do more digging and wouldnt you know BAM it had been going on for at least a month befor we ever split up (or so she tells me)
I LOVE HER BUT WHEN IS THAT NOT ENOUGH...ADVICE ANYONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
working
Renaissance says:
8 months ago
Wow, this speaks directly to me and one of my own experiences... unfortunately, I am not alone in that regard.
As always, Veronica, this is a great Hub!