I am not a Sinner - How about you?
71I'm not perfect but I do not commit sins
Apparently, to be 'saved', I have to repent of my sins. But that's a bit tricky for me, because I haven't got any. No, I'm not saying I don't do anything wrong. Of course I do. Every day. But sin? No, sorry, not in my philosophy.
What is sin?
Sin is not simply wrong-doing. If it were, I'd happily admit to being a sinner like everyone else. If I commit a crime, I can expect to be censured by the criminal justice system. If I commit a civil offense, there is the civil law to answer to. And if I'm just a general pain in the arse, friends and neighbours will sort me out. But sin is different. Sin is that special class of wrong-doing that is 'an abomination in the eyes of the Lord'. It is sin, not crime or anti-social behaviour, that will debar me from heaven when I die. But aren't we getting ahead of ourselves here?
Trivial and non-Trivial Pursuits
According to Maslow, the various human needs form a hierarchy. We cannot focus on the higher needs while the more basic needs are unsatisfied. The ultimate goal of self actualisation depends on us first 'getting our lives in order'. Self actualisation, in simpler terms, usually comes down to what I like to call pursuits (or hobbies or passions) in which we lose ourselves and through which we define ourselves. For some, sporting achievement is everything. For others, it may be music, sculpture, poetry. And for some, religion. We can hold our own opinions on the relative value (to society) of these pursuits. But we can't deny that to the individual, his/her chosen path is paramount.
Ready, Steady - Choose!
So, you're not cold, hungry, thirsty and you've recently been to the bathroom (level 1). Your house is comfortable enough and no bailiffs are beating on the door (level 2). You're happy with your partner and popular enough with the neighbours (level 3). Colleagues and friends seem to hold you in high regard as a 'good sort' (level 4). But now you need something to give meaning to your life (level 5, pending!) The choice is yours.
Let's suppose you choose music. When you enter into that world, you find it full of rules, or at least standards and expectations. For example, to play with others, you may have to tune to concert pitch. If you don't conform, the musical world will not embrace you. But if you do, you will find that your chosen world is limitless in its potential to offer fulfilment at the highest 'spiritual' level.
Similarly, if you choose golf, your progress in that world depends on conformity with the rules of the game (and normal clubhouse behaviour too!) But if you are willing to play the game, again there is the possibility of a lifetime journey, in pursuit of the unattainable perfect drive or approach shot.
Or you may choose to follow a religion. If you do, you voluntarily enter a very elaborate world of god(s), devil(s), angels, heaven, hell, holy books, rituals, sin, redemption, salvation and so on. These are simply the features of your chosen world.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us. Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, grant us peace.
The words of the Agnus Dei. Some people believe that God's Son gave himself as a blood sacrifice to save us from eternal torment. Others find this whole idea primitive and barbaric.
Golf is not Music
I've played music all my life and never been called on to avoid the bunkers. We don't have them. And golfers don't have to tune up before playing. The point is simply that the many thousands of 'games' people choose to play for personal fulfilment are mutually exclusive (give or take a few overlaps).
Which brings me back to sin. Sin is a necessary concept in certain religions all of which are approached by an act of faith, i.e. a decision to believe that which cannot be proven. Sin is an abomination in the eyes of a God who may very well not exist. If I play a wrong note or slice my drive into the rough, it is not a sin, as religion, golf and music are separate pursuits.
For religious people, religion is important. For irreligious people it is of no consequence. Similarly, for the unmusical, music amounts to very little. Both music and religion are complex 'worlds' with no logical or necessary connection to the lower world of preponent needs. Both are places that people irrationally, but very humanly, choose to go for fulfilment.
Particularly meaningless to the irreligious is the concept of original sin which depends on a creation story that flies in the face of experience, rationality and common sense.
Looking at all of this logically, the only possible sinners are religious folk; for the rest of us, the word is without meaning. We can't sin - we don't have the clubs in our bags. We can, of course, offend other people. (And we do!)
Thanks for the read!
Postscript - the responses
In less than a week, this hub has attracted 750 pageviews and 135 comments. In view of these high (for me) figures, I'm adding this postscript.
Responses seem to be coming from the following five camps:
- People who agree with me that sin implies an offended god and, seeing no evidence of such a being, see no need for the concept of sin. These responses come from rationalists/agnostics and also, interestingly, from theists whose god is not personal or judgmental.
- People who understand the thesis but wish to retain the idea of sin, not as a consequence of an offended god but simply as a synonym for wrong-doing. I understand this position, but think it rather weakens the language by losing an important distinction.
- People who insist that I am simply wrong (and sinful!) for suggesting that it is possible not to be a sinner. These people, for the most part, believe that, in making a leap of faith by accepting the bible as god's word, they are party to 'the truth' and everyone else must subscribe to their view or suffer the consequences.
- People who point out that sin really means imperfection (compared with a god-like state) rather than disobedience. This is an interesting position, but also requires the existence of a perfect god as the standard. Without evidence of such a being, perfection, and hence sin, seem to disappear together.
- People who seem not to have read the hub at all. Fortunately, this was a small group!
All in all, an interesting exercise. Thanks to all respondents. By all means comment further if so inclined.
PrintShare it! — Rate it: up down flag this hub
Comments
I wouldn't say there are no bunkers in music! We just know things by different names.
Enlydia - thanks for commenting. I'm not sure what 'there are no mistakes' means though.
Hot Dorkage - I'll agree it's possible to fall in a hole in most pursuits!
Paraglider, I understand what you are saying, but it doesn't quite work that way for me. I think it is possible to sin against oneself. Sometimes we do things that aren't strictly speaking harmful to anyone else, and are not a violation of any social code, but if they feel wrong to us, because they violate our personal code of honor, they are still sins against oneself. Nietzsche said: "The noble soul has reverence for itself." If we can revere ourselves, we can also sin. No other deity need be involved.
This one is by me: "I am my own god. I answer my own prayers. Not omniscient, invincible, but at least I know and care."
Interesting topic. Most religions and societies have varying concepts of sin as intentionally violating a moral rule. Some provide for atonement for sins which may be the basis for punishment for crimes. Mischief results when religions try to impose some of their controversial moral rules on society.
Remind me never to pop acid with you. great read and interesting point, I have always said if God knows everything, he must know we are going to sin ahead of time and if he doesn't do anything to stop it, what does that say?
In my travles and learing about religion and people in general I think SIN is the suppression of knowledge and of culture and societies and poeple in general. God is everywhere and in everything and also just in the air. The Life Force is in everything--even the tiniest grain of sand. When people get greedy and think it is all for them only they tend to put it all in a tiny box and let no one else experience it. Only they find that eventually they cannot do this and it causes much turmoil and prejudice and wars and fighting............and instead of finding the fault with them they blame it on an outside source--or they think it is an outside source. They don't understand that everyone has this Life Force and it is not up to them to control it and keep it in their little tiny box.
What about MURDER? This is a SIN no matter who or what you believe in.
And to goldentoad, Its called FREE WILL. You should read up on it.
Free Will has been discussed on the Religious Forum.
The laws have been written in the hearts and minds of men. We know what is right and what is wrong and really do not need anyone to tell us that.
Pesonally i agree with you. Sin can be seen as a selfish action that brings bad karma. But, that being said, experiencing "bad" karma is how we learn. Life is nothing more than one huge trial and error experiment. We learn by making mistakes. We are immortal spiritual beings, and it takes many lifetime to reach self actualization, as Maslow called it, or self realization as the mystics call it. very good piece of writing!
I agree with you Muley84. There is no sin and no one is a sinner.
Thank you, and thank you for beoming a fan. i think we can learn a lot from each other.
I guess it's up to me to throw another wrench in the gears. Rose Gold did it once already.
Anyone who says they have no sin is a liar. All have sinned, (including me) and come short of the glory of God. (this is found in the Bible by the way for those who do not know)
Sin in essence, is missing the mark. It means to be imperfect. A perfect person would never ever make a mistake at anything. They would always be right and do right things.
Out of those who commneted here so far, how many of you have never told a lie in your life?
Paraglider: The comment by your first hub reader, "there are no mistakes" seems to imply that everything that happens in this world is perfect; even the wars, the intolerance, the good, bad, murders, the natural disasters all are a part of duality. As for sin- I don't consider myself a sinner, as that would imply a judgemental, personal God sitting in the sky which I don't subscribe to, but I do consider myself as evolving in a world where Awareness is part of everything.
Interesting perspectives and several good points. I would rather deal with someone like you, even if we may not always agree, than an angry fundy telling me what to think or not. :)
Well Sir Dent ypu missed the mark on the Satan bit--that's for sure. When I first met you you were not as defiant about Satan and telling everyone else they were wrong but you. You surely have changed and I can't say it is for the better. What you focus on will surely come to you---Satan that is--are you ready for him. Just how do YOU know for sure that he isn't working through you because why I ask is that you sure do focus on him and give him homage and lots of attention and he LOVES that. Keep giving him attention and see where that gets you.
God can take care of himself and in that Bible it says that He is the all powerful and not Satan. Now go read your Bble by yourself without the help of those who tell you what to think and what they get out of it.
Geesh for someone who is grateful that GOD gave his wife a child sure doesn't sound like it. Fear and prejudice and hatred--is that what your church teaches you. Tht is exactly what it sounds like in your hubs and right here. If you love there can be no fear--and that sir is in that Bible too.
Oh for everyone's edification he thinks that most rock and roll music is the tool of Satan. Cult, Cult, Cult..........
LG, why have you come here to start a fight with me? Just so you know, I have never been tolerant of Satan since the Lord Jesus saved me.
Sir Dent may I remind you that I was in this hub before you came around here.
Jesus saved me too--or can't you see tht either!
People can be intolerant of Satan, but Satan wins each time you give him audience. nuff said!
I will try to refrain from giving him audience and not talking abut him any further. I suggest you do the same. That is what God wants...period--give him praise and thanks............
A brave and ambitious undertaking! Kudos to you for tackling this subject! :)
Any man who chooses to be an honest truth seeker should know that if you wish to go where God is, you must be like God, or possess the principles which God possesses, and if we are not drawing towards God then we are going towards the Devil.
We have thieves among us, adulterers, liars, hypocrites, no man can publish his own rightousness. If God would speak from heaven he would command us not to steal, or comitt adultary, or covet, or decieve, but to be faithful over a few things.
Seems this hub was written with the intent to get hits. It is funny that a lot of people confuse religion with other things. Jesus is NOT a religion, but a need for the remission of sin, of which we all commit. You can call it whatever you'd like, but sin is sin, there are none greater or less than another. I have a relationship with Jesus, his as Savior, me as greatfully forgiven all sins, past, present, and future. Rose Gold said it correctly, Free Will, given freely by God. We are all "allowed" to make mistakes, (call them sin or not) no intelligent man/woman continues to make the same painful mistakes over and over.
Just my thoughts...
I can only speak for myself, I enjoy a good sin from time to time and everyone who knows me, including God, loves me still.
Great Hub, Para, I love it! I think it is important that people understand what words mean and the impact of words on their lives, especially if they don't take the time to understand. And to undersatnd that the meaning of the words is their meaning - the words don't have meaning inherently.
I love Goldentoad's last comment. I love him too!
Thanks again for a thought-provoking Hub, Para.
Love and peace
Tony
That is a great representation of Abraham Maslow theory. I once had a discussion with Mark knowles justifying this theory to him. Anyway according to me every moment of our life we are committing some karma. Some times it maybe positive and sometimes not so positive karma. So would you call that not so positive karma as a sin? I don't consider myself as a very religious person but at the same time I wouldn't consider a very religious person as a sinner too (which is what I think you concluded in the end). Or you meant since the others don't know what sin is they are not sinners (ignorance is a bliss).
Well Paraglider, seems you've managed to set off another row. People who KNOW with absolute certainty are truly fascinating. I'm sure there's a clinical name, a psychosis of some sort, that would be used by an analyst.
I like the non sequiturs myself. Christian rock, pop, heavy metal and even rap comprise a multi-million-dollar music industry. That's a conflict right there. Do you suppose that any of the musicians are proud of their music or their skills? That would be a sin in the eyes of the christian god.
And sir dent, to you a lie may be a sin. To many others it's just a lie. It may be wrong but we don't need a god to tell us that. I'm happy to let you believe otherwise. Why can't you show me the same courtesy?
Hot topic. or so it seems. My views are expressed starightforwardly in my hubs, so it's no surprise that I probably disagree with you, Paraglider. I'm still smart and humble enough to say this hub is not only beautiful, it's valid. Bravo :)
Howdo Paraglider! VioletSun recommended me this hub, she thought I may be interested –she's known me for less than a day and she already seems to know me too well! Laugh!
You pretty much won me over with your first sentence: "Sin is not simply wrong-doing" but I was equally thrilled to read the rest, up to the thank you note! Well done!! Here's a high-five from a fellow non-sinner :-)
Rose Gold, with all due respect, murder is only a SIN for religious people who may view it as "an abomination in the eyes of the Lord", to paraphrase Paraglider's hub. To me, murder is a CRIME, an abomination not in the eyes of god but in my very human and very mortal eyes. If SIN works for you, though, that's perfectly fine by me. That's actually the whole point of this hub –sin and sinning can only have real meaning to those who believe.
Wow - so many comments to wake up to! Thanks everyone. I will answer later today, but have other commitments for this morning.
Wow. The hornet's nest hovers near Paraglider today!
As usual I am on the same page as CWB. Why must we always act like we know things we don't know and then, not happy with our private delusions of intelligence, get up in other people's faces about it whether they ask us to or not? Here's what I think: Life is unfair and people don't act right. As for sin, I think that term is a way to harness shame and despair as a marketing tool.
At its best, Christianity freely chosen offers hope and some guidelines for living a decent, loving life no matter what has happened to you personally or what you've done in the past. At its worst, Christianity has always struck me as extremely predatory---Constantly trolling the waters for shame-soaked, desperate people in pain and getting them to sign over their souls in exchange for eternal life and eternal obedience. But then you see who you're going to be living WITH for all eternity and whom you're expected to obey and you eventually realize you got hosed. If you're lucky you eventually realize it.
But not really!!! See, as anyone who has read Faust knows, you can't really sell your soul or even offer it for free to gain eternal life because A) it doesn't belong to you like a iPod or a Camry or a private jet you can just put on EBay, and B) it isn't real anyway. It's completely imaginary.
As for Nietsche, I think Nietsche could sin against himself and did every time he picked up a pen. Talk about fatal prose. Ack. That guy would not last two weeks at Hub Pages.
Thanks Paraglider. Great hub.
Interesting thoughts, Paraglider.
Must agree with CWB - a lie is more of a moral issue. If I tell a lie that ends up hurting somebody, I have committed a moral crime against that person - sin does not come into it.
Interesting topic nicely written
I like your approach, Paraglider. For folk like myself it provides a perfect excuse. Technically speaking you may have a point; although – as hot dorkage points out – we may simply know things by different names.
However, to satisfy our needs at level three and four we have to adhere to common rules. And while we may be able (let me rephrase that: personally I feel I am quite able) to bend the rules here and there, there are a few morals that apply to each and every one of us. Thou shall not kill. It’s not just illegal, it’s against our deeper, common moral beliefs and hence it’s a sin. So I agree with Aya Katz on this matter. Nevertheless you produced another good and thought provoking hub. Thumbs up :)
For the record I’d like to emphasize that I am not a sinner and – as far as I can judge – nor is Paraglider, regardless of what any religious zealot may think.
Aya - I should have made it clearer. Harming oneself directly or indirectly (by frittering away one's life), I would also class as wrong-doing, and also damaging the environment through over consumption. But unless this offends god, it is not sin. My contention is that if we don't acknowledge god, sin is an unnecessary concept.
Ralph - yes. Mischief does indeed result from that cause.
Goldentoad - predestination seems to me to be another great nonsense.
Lady G - I suspect that there is very little difference between claiming that god is in everything and simply saying god does not exist. If everything is god, there is no differentiation between god and not god. So we learn nothing.
Rose - Murder is an abomination, whether or not god exists.
Muley - some people certainly do believe we are immortal spiritual beings. Some don't. It is a leap pf faith.
Sir Dent - I'd prefer not to be called a liar when I am trying my best to put forward my honest conclusions. Please try to remember that your choice to believe in the bible as the word of god does not make it the word of god. You could be mistaken.
Justmesuzanne - thank you :)
Onusonus - Check out Shadesbreath's hub on begging the question. That is what you are doing in your comment.
jmichael - sorry, but I do not commit sin. I do wrong things, every day. But acknowledging no god, I cannot see my actions as an affront to god. By the way, the hub was written not merely to get hits, but to try to make it clear that no group has the right to impose the rules of their private game on non-players.
Tonymac - welcome, it's been a while. Words are important. And phrases too. All too many people do their 'thinking' in hand-me-down phrases. There's no future in that!
Countrywomen - Maslow was one of the great clarifiers, I think. Karma is part of a religious tradition and sin is part of another. Both are on the far side of leaps of faith and are not necessary to those who prefer to leave the open questions open.
CWB - To be honest I wasn't expecting such a furore. All I was trying to do was expand on a comment I made on your recent hub, where I compared theology with music, as irrational but very human pursuits. Just developing on the theme here (to use a musical analogy)
Tkeeley - thank you very much. That's a generous comment. Maybe some time we'll pursue the free will issue in the light of this hub and yours.
Elena - welcome, and thanks for the appreciation. Sometimes erring non-sinners need to stand up and be counted!
Pgrundy - Oddly enough the word I didn't mention in the hub is 'guilt'. I think the obsession with sin leads to guilt, making it all the harder simply to behave better in real time, instead of bothering about redemption, salvation et al. This world is tough enough, methinks!
Sufidreamer - there are times when a lie is the correct speech. Sin requires god. No god, no sin.
Lgali - thanks
Ananta - In my reasoning, to acknowledge sin is to acknowledge god, since I believe the correct definition of sin is 'an abomination in the eyes of god'. Therefore I prefer to trust my own eyes, and those of people I respect, rather than those of a god whose existence I doubt.
I do agree with your point about how the concept of "sin" is used to create shame and fear in people, which in turn will persuade them to join a certain religious group. It is one thing if you choose to believe in a certain faith such as Christianity, but to go around and tell those who do not agree that they are "sinners" is a form of deluded self-importance. No one is really better than anyone else, but the creation of the idea of sin is to make some feel better than others. This is how I see it.
Jesus died to erase all mankind sins. But the catch is, you must first admitt to being a sinner. To benefit the rewards.
Rose, you may not do so, but my point is some Christians are way too confrontational in their approach. It is one thing if you want to believe in sin and your group discusses this, but I have seen instances where some Christians go to certain hubs that disagree with their philosophies and call the writer a sinner. To me this is just not right, and it is also a form of a superiority trip. I do not see other religions doing this as often as Christians, thus my point. I am a Christian by the way, but I am slightly put off by the various people who want to tell everyone that they are sinners and their lifestyle is better than yours.
Yes I am a sinner, without sin.
SweetiePie I wasn't replying to your comment. I don't live on Hubpages looking for hubs to disagree with. My e-mail directed me to this hub. I believe in freedom of religion. We may all live in different houses but there is only one Sun over our head.
Hi Para, great hub as usual, and I was truly impressed by the concise and accurate point you made in this comment:
" Please try to remember that your choice to believe in the bible as the word of god does not make it the word of god. You could be mistaken".
I am not saying I know for sure you are right, or anyone is right, but I like the open minded comment that makes the obvious point that treating the Bible as the word of God could be wrong, or a mistake and it is unproven.
I guess this is the problem I have when people quote scripture at me to back up their own beliefs, or their issues with mine. Quoting from this particular book is not going to impress anyone who has no proof it is anything other than an old book. There appears to be little or no evidence to say it is actually the word of God, even Jesus is not one of the writers, plus of course it has been translated many times, and altered by both the Church and King James to suit their own ends (and who knows how many others too!).
I personally do believe in God, and Jesus, but need more than Bible quotes to convince me my Pagan ways or method of worship and belief in God are wrong. The trouble is, that every time anyone makes a statement like mine, or similar, some Christian will usually come rushing in with, guess what, more Bible quotes to convince us as to why we are wrong and they are right. None of them can offer any evidence other than quotes, and none of them can prove the words of the Bible are truly what God intended, and so the endless debate continues until those of us who are somewhat sceptical about the words in today's Bible, and their origins will finally receive something in terms of proof that ensures we are left convinced that the Bible translations, words, teachings etc, are genuine, and not altered by the Church, translations or anything else.
This is a good part of why the Church/Fundamentalist Christians, the non-believers and the followers of other religions such as Paganism, will always be arguing, and will never agree on a final truth.
The Bible is the greastest story ever told. It was meant to teach mankind how to live. Not to be use in vein (to win a argument attached to his name ) Which make just commenting on this hub a sin, or writing it. Yes we all are sinners.
I sorry if my own words sounds like Quotes. if they are Quotes, then they belong to me. But I'm willing to share.
"The Bible is the greastest story ever told. It was meant to teach mankind how to live"
But how do you really know this Rose????
"Which make just commenting on this hub a sin, or writing it.",
This seems a bit harsh Rose, as it sounds as if you are saying to question the information available as far as Christianity and the Bible goes, is a sin, so apparently we are supposed to blindly believe without using the intelligence God gave us.
Hello mitzy. I find people say alot when they hide their real name.
With your own words. Where did you get this intelligence (The Bible) from. Does it hurt you to be call a sinner?
Actually Rose, I don't hide my real name to my online friends, ask Spryte, Shadesbreath, Christoph Reilly, Bobby Dazzler etc etc etc. I choose not to 'publish' it purely for common sense reasons such as psychos finding out where you live, fraud, hate mail, vandalism on property etc etc.
As for the other question you ask of me, read again my words, I did not ask "Where did you get this intelligence ", My words were
"This seems a bit harsh Rose, as it sounds as if you are saying to question the information available as far as Christianity and the Bible goes, is a sin, so apparently we are supposed to blindly believe without using the intelligence God gave us.".
No it doesn't hurt me to be 'called a sinner', as I know that in the way the 'Bible Quoting Brigade' would infer I am, is untrue and simply a form of persecution on others who fail to worship exactly as they believe we should, although in the normal sense of the word "sinner" I feel everyone makes mistakes in some way or another.
My heart and conscience are pure, and I have no great need to use the Bible to convince others of the "errors of their ways", and remain sceptical as to the accuracy of it, and await some proof of the content's authenticity now translated. (BTW, I did attend several Catholic convent schools, and was brought up Church of England, so I am not unfamiliar with Bible teachings by a long way).
BTW, the name online is "Misty" not "Mitzy". My real name is Cindy in case you were wondering.
Paraglider- I know my understanding of such complex things is very little. I just wanted to seek your esteemed view on this matter: Whether those not so positive karma is considered the same as a sin by the Christians? Or they are not at all related in anyway since karma is believed to be accumulated birth after birth unlike the concept of Sin in a single life(without reincarnation). I am really not knowledgeable about these things and hence it is my sincere request if some one could answer this for me.
Ananta65, you're missing the point. Sin is a purely religious term. In the real world it has no validity. Killing is wrong. Everyone knows it. It's not a sin, it's wrong. We don't need a god, a pope, a preacher or any religion to know this. We are life. Life is sacred. To take life is wrong. End of discussion.
Rose Ella Morton, my name is Richard William Posner, otherwise known as ColdWarBaby. I think you need to study a bit of history and science. Blend them with your beliefs and you won't have so much trouble with discussions like this one. We can all believe what what need to believe as long as we can agree to disagree without hostility. This is the first step on the path to Peace and understanding.
Para, I appreciate and agree, but I suppose this isn't really a surprise; we do on many things. Great hub, I wish more people could just chill and view the world so calmly and respectfully as you.
Misty, I don't know why you bother to grapple with the close-minded certainty of the righteous sometimes, but you do let yourself get sucked into the fray. I think your compassion, patience and desire for genuine intellectual and spiritual exchange gets in the way of your ability to see that you are talking to an automaton sometimes. You need to learn to spot a closed mind and just walk away.
SweetiePie - I agree with you that the concept of sin is used, by some, as a club to beat you with. I think it is quite reasonable for two consenting Christians to discuss their sins, since they have signed up to that belief system. But they should realise that their game is not a world game and leave the rest of us in peace.
Rose Ella - You have chosen the way of the Bible. That is an act of faith. I do not choose to follow you there. For me, sin implies an offended god whom I don't acknowledge. Therefore, I don't need the concept of sin. The concept of wrong-doing is quite adequate and requires no god.
Misty - Thanks for commenting. Your remarks are always well thought out. There is good guidance (and a great deal of bad too) in the bible and in all 'sacred' texts. But there is at least equally good guidance in mainstream literature and philosophy that does not require constant appeal to a 'heavenly judge'. I think it is dangerous when we surrender reason.
Countrywomen - My no doubt oversimple understanding of karma is that we reap what we sow, whether in this life or a future one. I'm probably not the best person to ask, because I do not believe that we survive our deaths. Specifically, I am not convinced that the phenomenon of consciousness necessarily implies an independent 'soul'. Sin, in the judaeo-christian tradition is disobedience to god. In an oddly perverted way, some insist that all sin is equally abominable to god and therefore a proud man is no different from a murderer. Believe that who will...
CWB - thanks for your addenda with which I concur :)
Shadesbreath - long time no see. Welcome back and thanks for the comment. Where have you been? Working on your long-form stuff?
Yep. Finished a novela, a pretty serious work for me, and a short story that, laugh, is totally spawned from my example of how to create a character in my short story hub. Plus, I had to go get a real job, so, that started a few days ago. Weird being on a schedule again.
That's well done. I thought you were probably on a mission like that. I'm just embarking on 4 weeks of no work, back in UK, before heading back out to Middle East for another spell.
I get your point, Paraglider. But what is the distinction between a sin and a crime? Is the sole reason to reject the word sin the religiously attached use of it?
Ananta - a crime is a contravension of a criminal law. There are also civil laws that can be contravened, constituting a civil offense. Then there are societal mores that are not enforced by any law, but are pretty well understood. And finally, there's your personal consience. These are codes enough to live by without adding the concept of sin which implies the presence of an offended god. I can do without that, as I see no evidence for it. Sin, for me, belongs on that island called religion which you reach by a deliberate leap of faith. Or choose not to visit.
VioletSun - sorry, I missed you out in my last group response message. Your interpretation of 'there are no mistakes' (to mean everything that happens is part of a perfect plan) comes very close to the Panglossian view which I wrote about here http://hubpages.com/hub/pangloss I don't think you were necessarily agreeing with the view, so much as representing it, but it's interesting to know that it's still 'out there'. Thanks :)
I get the point and I’m not completely disagreeing, mind you.
But just like the word ‘cell’ has a different meaning for a biologist than it has for a warden, sin can have a different charge for me than it will have for a Christian. For me (but that is of course personal) to acknowledge sin would not mean that I acknowledge god. Sin (in my book) is an abomination in the eyes of me.
Best wishes for 2009, Paraglider :)
Ananta - That is more or less what Aya Katz was saying too, and it's an OK position. Obviously, I don't pretend I can legislate for common usage of language. (Only Shadesbreath can do that ;) But I felt like fighting a rearguard action against the assumption (stated in some of the comments here) that we are all sinners and unless we unload them onto Jesus we're lost souls.
Yes, some words do escape from their true homes to enrich the general language. You don't have to be a golfer to be stymied, for example.
Happy new year to you & yours!
LOL, yes Shades, you are right, I do tend to get sucked in too easily, I think my questioning mind causes me a lot of problems, and closed minds fristrate the hell out of me :)
Para, Great Hub by the way, and it is creating some very interesting responses.
Hi Para!
"Sin is that special class of wrong-doing that is 'an abomination in the eyes of the Lord'."
This is, indeed what many religions taach, but it is not the original meaning of the word. In the original languange is actually a simple acknoweldgement of our lack of perfection. (See my hub on "the greatest sin").
That being said, If your original premis is accepted, your hub is rational and well laid out. A careful study of the Gospel of Matthew shows that Jeuss was aware of the principles Maslow espoused. The sermon on the mount starts in Chapter 5, but before he addresed "Belonging/Self-esteem" issues in the beattitudes, he addresed the Physical needs in Chapter 4.
I hope that your hub will cause people who have a limited understanding of the meaning of sin (i.e. grevious wrong-doing) to examine their assumptions and to actually persue righteousness rather than simply parroting doctrine.
BDazzler - thanks for that. Yours may indeed be the original meaning, but by the time we get to St Paul, the meaning is surely transmuted to the version I cited. After all we don't talk about 'committing imperfection'. And nowadays the people who are most vociferous about sin nearly always mean an offence to (their) god.
Someone just gave me a few veres out of the Bible that I think would go with your hub. I am only going to give you the link that I got it from and you can take it as you see it. My version that I used is Young's Translation:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah
What I read of this is that God made everthing at his whim--good and evil. In some parts I understand it to say that there is no God either. Maybe Bdazzler can clear some of this us for us.
"meaning is surely transmuted to the version I cited" ... and more's the pitty. I think Paul had it ok, I think it was those who interpret Paul who decided to eleveate it. Still your point is well made, regardless of where it got eleviated, it is certainly elevated now.
"And nowadays the people who are most vociferous about sin nearly always mean an offence to (their) god."
Which is an error and therefore "sin" ... ironic, eh? LOL
LG that's a pretty deep passage I'll look into it in detai a bit later. (I'm at work now ... break's over!)
k
Lady G - thanks for the link, which I read. The problem I have with this is that it was written by Isaiah (or attributed to him). Isaiah, a man, doesn't have to believed. He has an axe to grind. His word is not the word of god. He might be describing his vision, or he might be making it all up. I suspect something between the two, and marred by translation and editing.
yes that too. When I read it what I got was that God created evil and good too. With this there can be no sin, at least not against this very God. He makes everything and it certainly looks like we are all in just some kind of computer game!
The version that I ued is the Young's Literal Translation. I don't use the newr versions or the King James becasue they have been tampered with too many times. There is another one that is literal too, Darby's.
I was raised (initially) as a Catholic. My first experience with confession...at the age of 7, was uplifting and I truly felt as if my transgressions had been forgiven.
At the age of 11, my family moved to a different area (courtesy of the Air Force) where the church required my confession on a weekly basis. By their standards, I guess I was considered to be a high risk sinner, but unfortunately, I was either a young amnesiac or I just didn't have enough sins to confess. I'm hoping it was the latter...but who knows. The first time I encountered this local practice, the priest spent about fifteen minutes yelling at me in the confessional for not having gone to confession for several months. What could I say to defend myself? I'm sorry, Father...see...I'm eleven years old and I'm sort of at the mercy of my parents...and the government. We've been moving across the country and my folks kinda opted for Disneyworld in lieu of church when we last stopped?
Of course, I got off rather easy. My mother was next...but when the priest yelled at her...she yelled at him right back. See...it was the 70's and after popping out five children (and barely surviving the ordeal of the fifth), she decided that giving her children a mother was more important than having a sixth and leaving them without one. So the priest was loudly chastising her for going on the birth control pill.
After that...I realized that any religion that would jeopardize the health of any of its followers because of out-dated beliefs and practices based on what was or was not currently considered a "sin" was not the way I wanted to live my life. My family still retained a belief in god...but we eschewed any form of organized religion.
So am I a sinner? Probably in the eyes of some I am, but those are not the eyes that matter and their judgement is thankfully not the final word. I prefer to follow my own moral code, which tends to be a bit stricter than the civil one and includes things like kindness, tolerance and humanity. But that's just me. I have to live with my own conscience...and not anyone else.
Nice hub Para...really got me thinking about sin. My first response was yes, I am a sinner...because of my upbringing. But y'know...that whole Adam and Eve thing and original sin? Sorry...I wasn't there so I'm not going to accept blame for them. :)
Spryte, I wasn't brought up Catholic but did go though RCIA and became one. At my first confession I was also told that I did horrible things and mutilated my body and I cired for days at the guilt trip they put me on. The reason was because I had a tubal ligation many years before I was a catholic and it was because I was being raped and didn't want to mother a child that I would hate if I did get pregnant. I also almost lost my life and my second child's life and didn't want to go thrugh that again. I had to do several hail mary's and some other things. I stayed Catholic for 7 years and had enough of their doctirne that had nothing to do with the LOVE of Jesus or God. My husband is still Catholic and he doesnt' give me all the crap that the christians here throw at me. I know what the Love feels like and they have no idea. You are right abut the original in and wasn't Jesus come to do away with that concept in the first place. I think they are the ones who are confused. That's just my take on it.
Misty you can't use what God has given you to go against him. Unless your the devil.
Rose- What path one chooses is up to the individual but to conclude some one as the "devil" is totally uncalled for.
I am a sinner. according to the common belief. But I am not a sinner if I have been redeemed. There is no sin in me. It has been washed away, and it is written that all things are holy unto those who are holy. If I am redeemed, ie;a friend of God, I no longer sin for I cannot sin for He does not impute sin unto me. Sin is for sinners and the law is for sinners, I am not under the law of sin.
What do you think?
What bothers me about Christians who are excited about their faith, is that they can't wait to shoot someone with it.
If my faith lifts me up and helps me love others, then I think I have found a light that others can use...without the shooting technique.
works for me. =))
C.C. Riter: I understand what you are saying. It like you never get...unless your able to admitt and come to term that you are a sinner.
Countrywomen: I didn't know I was being too harse. I sorry it came off that way. But we are only given a choice of two. Either your in or out, either your bad or good. Their is no middle
Richard: I have no fear in telling the truth. I am not a group of people. I am only one person. I know the history of Man. Only God knows the science of this universe.
Interesting hub Paraglider, Although I do consider myself a pretty good person, I also still consider myself a "sinner". Human nature is full of sinful thoughts, behavior and actions. Are all sins the same? According to God they are, but it is hard to equate the sin of murder with the sin of lying. But that is our human judgement that says that, not Gods word.
Excellent hub, Paraglider. I am not a sinner and proudly stand next to you with this claim. I dislike any conept (religion, etc) that causes one to question their own wonderful magnificence.
LOL
Nice hub paraglider. Good to see some one telling the "truth,"
I can honestly say without fear of contradiction that I am not a sinner. I do wonder why - and this may have already been answered because I did not read ALL the comments -
Those that do choose to decide they are sinners. This is a purely personal choice on their part. Why do they feel the need to try and inflict that on others? I even see Sir Dent here calling people liars when they do not choose to be sinners.
Kind of reminds me of friends who have just had a baby. They look like shit after weeks of sleepless nights, are broke trying to buy all the baby stuff they need, haven't had a moments peace and swear up and down they are never having another one - yet they insist on trying to persuade everyone they know that they should have one too. lol
Interesting topic. Most religions and societies have varying concepts of sin as intentionally violating a moral rule. Some provide for atonement for sins which may be the basis for punishment for crimes. Mischief results when religions try to impose some of their controversial moral rules on society.
Lady G - Antiquity doesn't of itself impart worth (other than antique value) to text. If something is obscure and cryptic, maybe it's just a bad piece of writing, even if it is in the bible. Maybe the author was intoxicated at the time. I see the same thing happening often with poetry - people insist on 'interpreting' instead of having the courage to say this is not much good!
Spryte - I was brought up Church of Scotland (presbyterian) so didn't have to suffer the indignity of confession, but I've heard a lot of horror stories of bullying priests inflicting guilt on their charges. I think that might be less prevalent nowadays, but maybe not. I'm glad you've escaped 'original sin' at least. That seems a very wrong-headed doctrine.
Rose Ella - Why are you so afraid of allowing for the possibility that other people's views may be just as valid as your own? "Either your in or out, either your bad or good. Their is no middle" that statement is your interpretation of the bible, a book that many people do not accept as the word of god. What you are doing (as laid out in my hub) is requiring everyone to play your game. That is unreasonable.
C C Riter - I think you are stating a position that makes sense if and only if you have first decided to become a Christian. In other words, you're stating the rules of your game. It's not my game, but there's no reason why it should be. Thanks for the read :)
Marisue - I agree with you. Religion is an irrational pursuit that many people are drawn to, for various reasons. That's OK. But once there, some feel the need to berate others, which is unfortunate. It does seem particularly common among modern christians.
Dorsi - I would suggest that it is not only hard but wrong to equate lying with murder. If that is the conclusion from the book, isn't it just possible that the man who wrote that part of the book was mistaken? Shouldn't we be brave enough to to call nonsense nonsense instead of trying to accommodate it? There is good guidance in the bible but there is nonsense too. Thanks for the visit :)
KCC - I make no claim to 'wonderful magnificence', but I do reserve the right to look at the evidence available and make up my own mind about things. I think that's what you are saying?
Mark - We all do irrational things for fulfilment. Hill-climbing, only to come back down again, has no rational basis, but it's fun. Adopting a religion is in a similar class. Where it gets silly is when people start saying my irrationality is better than yours, and start trying to impose it on others. Hill climbers rarely do that!
Sandyhap - Ralph Deeds' comment was a good one, but I'm not sure why you would want to repost it under your name??
I have always thought that for the spirtual man, aslow's pyramis, needs to be turned upside down... Our human nature tellls us the concerns of food and shelter are germaine..but our spiritual self, cares little for the survival or comforts of this world!
Hi Mike - and also for the artist, maybe? The artist living for his art while starving in a garret - it's a very traditional image. I agree that Maslow's hierarchy is too pat, like most generalisations. But even the most spiritual need to eat and drink now and again! Thanks for commenting :)
Sins most definitely exist, as well as evil in this world. And, I am very thankful for my religion and the moral code it has instilled in me. Repenting means I am willing to not only recogize mistakes but try to change them. For that, I am very grateful.
I echo what Ann says. Well said Ann!
Ann, now what would you do over again if you had the chance? What mistake have you done that you would change?
Ann - thanks for commenting, and ASU too. I assure you that without a religion I also recognise my mistakes and try to change them. Moral codes do not necessarily imply a divine source.
Good points Paraglider, but like I said that is what we as humans determine a "worse sin" to be- what things are worse then others? Lying vs. murder as an example.
Gods standard is different than ours, we form our own thoughts and ideas on what's right and wrong, but God has His own, we may or not may not agree with, but if you believe in God then you have to believe by His standards and not your own. It's like working for your boss and you don't agree with all the boss says, but you believe in the standard of his decisions. It all really comes down to where you put your trust - in yourself or in God? Humans by nature want control, but when you have faith and believe in God you are putting your trust and faith into what God wants for your life. And trusting that His word is the right word.
Paraglider- If religion makes a certain person better i.,e who is kind and loving with an open attitude then it is good for that person.
And for another person if his/her moral codes makes that person to be a kind and loving person with an open tolerant attitude then it is good for that person.
We are all different and based on our upbringing and experiences hence we should be allowed to evolve to become whatever we want to be and however we want to be. We can choose what to decide that is better for oneself. But that path chosen shouldn't make a person narrow in focus not to consider that their are other paths for other people.
Oh, yeah. And I've never eaten chocolate before or drunk diet coke...
This is an amazing response to a hub! You have obviously touched a nerve.
I am not a believer in any way shape or form, but I find the concept of sin difficult in particular because if there are people who have never heard of the ten commandments, such as some of the isolated tribes which still (just) exist, how can a God judge them? Unless a God informs everyone of his rules, he cannot in all decency judge the ignorant can he?
Before gods standards can have any validity Dorsi, it must first be established that there is in fact a god. The belief in "sin" implies belief in a god to sin against. You may have both if you so choose. Personally I accept neither concept. Now, here's the hard part. Can we peacefully agree to disagree?
About gods word; I have never heard him/her/it speak. Nor have I ever read anything that can in any way be proven to have been authored by her/it/him. For me, no such word exists. If your faith allows you to accept what men have written and claimed as gods word, then so be it. It's not your faith that bothers me overly much, it's people who insist, unequivocally, that I MUST accept their faith as the only truth.
One of Webster's definitions of sin is "a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God"
I believe that an argument on semantics will continue forever. To me a mistake is something that I tried to do right, but came out wrong.
This is what I consider to be sin -anything that separates me from God, whether it is breaking a moral law or choosing to deny his gift of eteranl life.
Ken-I'm surprised noone else said it earlier. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but it's a very huge claim for a person to say they don't sin.
coffeesnob-it's so difficult to know what separates one from God. I figure if a person is a good and decent human being, than they're close to God regardless of laws ad nauseum.
Hi Dorsi - when you say 'God's standard is different from ours', you are not speaking my language because you are assuming that I will accept that there is a god. CWB's response to you is on the nail. Also, when people start saying that lying and murdering are equal sins in the sight of god, it only make me less interested in searching further for such a wrong-headed god. Because we all know that murder is the greater attrocity.
Countrywomen - everyone should be free to follow their own path, but should also realise that, having made a leap of faith, they have moved into a terrritory that is entirely personal, and should not try to impose their will on others.
Ken - That's similar to my problem with sin. If sin is that which displeases god, but god might not exist, then sin might also not exist, except in the eyes of believers.
CWB - very well packaged :)
Coffeesnob - that definition works for you because you believe there is a god to be separated from. The argument is not mere semantics. I can't change common parlance, but I can remind readers that sin implies a displeased god. If you don't have the god, you don't need the idea of sin any more.
Writer Rider - You'll notice that I started the article by admitting to daily wrong-doing, so it's not such a huge claim. In matters of religion I am a Rationalist. I don't see reason to believe in god. And with god goes heaven, hell, sin redemption and the rest.
Sin is unbelief - not believing.Attributes of Sin is the result of unbelief - I don't believe, I go out and get drunk, smoke, and do drugs. Disregard the laws of the land. Disrespect others. Name call. Bribe, lie, cheat, commit adultery, kill, blow your temper, cuss, foul language, so on.Sinner - unbeliever
Eagle - sorry, but that is unreasonable. You are perpetuating the myth that those who do not believe in god behave worse than those who do. These examples of wrong-doing that you cite are wrong whether or not there is a god scowling at them.
Paraglider, I see your point. I'm not used to people separating sin from wrong-doing. In my opinion, it is synonymous for wrong doing whether defined religiously or not. To me it's just a word like "bad" or "naughty" and doesn't need to be defined by a belief in God.
WR - I like to make the distinction because I get a little tired of people insisting that we are all sinners (from birth) and can only be saved from eternal torment by being 'born again in Jesus'. If that's their game, let them play it, but it's certainly not my game. Thanks for clarifying your earlier comment. I wasn't sure how to respond to that one :)
All I keep reading from those "believers" is that sin is taking us away from God. My question is this------If we were made in his likeness and from God and we are all part of God then how can we be separated from that which is? Tell us what it looks like to be separated from him, because it has to look like something and you must feel it? If something is made out of something else it is forever a part of that irst something.
Lady G - your all-inclusive theology is not dissimilar to Mohit's 'god is the cosmos' view. It is also not dissimilar to my own view that everything is inter-related in ways that we are slowly discovering, though a total understanding is probably never attainable. The main difference, I think, is that I am happy to say this is where we live and it just 'is'. I don't see the need to deify any or all of it. Hope that makes sense.
Yes it does make alot of sense. Through my experiences and throughout my learning processes, I have questioned religion for a long time now and I know that we are all connected and we cannot be apart from the whole--it's ust giving it names, I know that sounds very religious, but I have not come to the point in which I know what to call it becasue once you "label" somthing it is lablled forever and life is changing-----that is the only constant there is. If nothing changed then there wouldn't be anything. I know I am going to get another beating by saying that life and God changes, but if you look at it logically they have too change---even if it is so minute to us, but it is the only wyat that life exists--we are not in a vacuum.
Very thought provoking! LOL back some 20 years ago I would get togehter with some friends who all liked to talk abut this stuff and we all called it "Time to get our hipboots on!" So contrary to those believers expectations and belefs I have not gotten my thoughts in a week or a month or even in a year, but much longer thatn 20 years to say the least.
Paraglider
Man is allowed to be unsure about a lots of things. but this is not one of them.
Nice one...philosophy
Rose, who says? The Bible? Man does.............why is it that we all have to have a guilty conscious. It is only by those who deem it fitting to blame others for the choices that they have made---not God's or Jeus's or anyone elses. Those who like tht lifestyle more power to them, but if we are to grow there can't be guilt. It is all a learning process to attain unconditional love and for everyone and everything. Imposing guilt in others is not unconditional love and it is far from it. Just because it works for you does not mean that it works for everyone. That Bible was written for Jews and about Jews. The rest of the world was supposed to know the miracles that Jesus did and the works he did--not to judge others by what you and other believers have set forth. How many times has that Bible been translated and by how many people-many and in that there is alot of mistranslations and politics involved in such.
Rose Ella - you are welcome to put your point of view here, but I'd be more impressed if you showed enough humility to accept that it is Just Possible that others' views might be nearly as valid as your own. How about it, eh?
Topstuff - it's been a while, thanks for the read :)
Paraglider. It is most possible that we all are right. and we do have a right to choose what we believe in. And their is a freedom of religion.
Rose Ella - there is indeed. Which is why you can't say that man is 'not allowed' to be unsure of the nature of sin. There are no rules governing thought.
Oh my dear friend, you are vain and that is a sin. By saying, "I do not Sin" you are sining.
"Let him who is Without sin cast the first stone"
Is that YOU? Sure?
We all have a free-will to do or to believe in what we choose. "unsure" is a thought before you choose. You can visit "unsure" but you cannot live there.
Not everyone believes in sin, or even has the same definition of sin. For instance, there seems to be a large disparity among groups, such as Christians, as to clasifying what sin truly is. I do not know about you, but I am pretty busy with my day to day life of working, paying bills, and being kind to others, so I really do not have a lot of time to live according to an archaic construct defining what sin is. So many people have different interpretations of "sin," so you could make yourself exhausted expending energy worrrying about this.
CAisBack - I wouldn't cast stones at another person. I leave that to religious zealots. Did you read the hub? I admitted several time to wrong-doing, but sin is a religious concept, 'an abomination in the sight of god'. If there is no god, there is no sin, yet wrong-doing still remains. I don't have to play religious games. That is not vanity. Thanks for commenting.
Rose Ella - we had a similar exchange on my hub 'Believers, Agnostics and Atheists' where you insisted that people MUST choose. But why? To decide to know or believe something on faith alone, or, for that matter, to insist that it is untrue, - both of these responses represent an irrational closing of part of the mind. I choose not to do that. It is more than possible; it is liberating.
SweetiePie - the confusion around the definition is just another reason to suspect that the whole concept is flawed and, as you say, just get on with life :)
This may sound like a trite explanation, but sin happens when you put 'I' in the middle.
I don't think you have to be religous to understand this concept.
2patricias - I'm afraid that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I think it is important to try as hard as possible to understand as much as possible. That enterprise leads me to the conclusion that sin implies an offended god, for whom I see no evidence.
If God is Love and all that he is--and we are part of him and eveerything and everyone--how can we offend ourselves?
Paraglider, thanks for this enlightening read. I've heard that "sin" originated from a term used when an archer missed the mark. I think that goes along nicely with the game analogy--if you're not aiming for the mark, you can't sin. It's a shame that those who believe they are sinners want so desperately for others to join their camp.
In my game, if Jesus existed and was an enlightened master, he would be blown away by the bombastic and arrogant claims that a few of his "followers" are quick to make. Those who insist on calling themselves "Christian" should at least make attempt to embody the virtues of love, compassion, non-judgment, and kindness that Jesus allegedly upheld.
I like the example you and others have set in the comments: remaining open minded and respectful toward each other as we strive to collectively advance our knowledge toward greater truth and understanding.
Well done!
According to Anthropology I am a Anglo Saxon Caucasian
According to dedicated Hebrews I am a gentile
According to the Bible I am a sinner unless I repent.
I can jump up and down, say whatever I want, but when certain things that are stated I cannot change those.
Which to you the Bible is a myth , doesn't take away from the fact you are a sinner. The book was written. The Anthropologist has spoken.
If you ever lied and never made it right - you are a liar. Statement made.
If you speed down the highway, you are a speeder whether caught or not, by the law.
Deny any of these statements all you want till your blue in the face - doesn't change it.
What is your measuring stick for moral values? Society as a whole? Someone's else viewpoint? What is your absolute? The final call in what you made right or wrong? A mistake? To a man who kills it is justifiable or is it for you? How do you know the murderer is wrong? When is lying wrong? Ok?
In all games there are rules to follow, a cheater may be get away with something, but he still broke the rule.
So according to the Bible (myth or not) you are a sinner. According to you, you aren't. So what is your big deal? What is your problem? Don't believe the bible, that's fine, just suck it up and go on with your life and be happy. By the bible your still a sinner and you can never change that no more than you change who you really are.
So you don't believe that you are sinner - fine. But obviously you are one of these Religious atheists. Out to evangelize, convert, influence, and propagate, - much the same as any other religious person. You have a religious agenda. (Just remember religious Atheistic USSR persecuted Christians).
But the conclusion of the matter is really simple.
When you draw your last breath of life you will know if you are right or wrong!! (same for me).
Repeat on your last breath you will know if you are right or wrong!
I truly wish you a happy life. And God Bless you.
Many times we think what happen if someone do something wrong. But i think that it's not the point. The point is What do we feel when someone do something wrong? Do we feel pity for the consequences? That would be something so good. But the truth is that we might feel more things. These are the only things that should concern us, and need to be change.
We cannot go to a Escort Agency to say the Word of Love( S.A.V.) Everything has a place, so we have to help the one that want to be helped. Sometimes i've done the opposite. And noone has listen me. So i learnt.
Cheers to every soul looking for light
Eaglegordon. you have spoken much truth here. No one is trying to hurt anyone here with their views . But if you are hurt at something that was said then maybe you were wrong and the truth Hurts.
Paraglider a rapist might have a good reason to rape. he might be able to put up a good debate on why it not a sin... are we wrong to not believe that he should be lock-up. We don't not have to accept anything that doesn't fix into our life.
It is never about a religion nor becoming religious to whatever religion you belong to.
Its not about music, money, material possesions that makes us sane.
The reason He lives is becos everyone is imperfect. We may never become perfect, at least almost.
No man is not a sinner. Being saved doesnt make you perfect and if you do, a round of applause.
Ok so here is one of those fundamentalist to rain on the parade. Not intentionally it's just that,logically, when you follow an absolute power and you have the courage to align with that - give up some of your worldly ways you are separated from the world with a point of view that is simple, yet difficult to explain because in the world we, ( and I was secular not all that long ago,) complicate out minds in such a way that it is hard to grasp the concept of something that is simple and absolute. Sin, in the herbrew language doesn't have any negative conitations to it. It means to miss the mark. So when you become born again and are forgiven you want to please him so you are alway looking to align your behavior more because, there are blessings that come from it, yes, but there is a spiritual process that gets set up. Even though we are saved there is still a life time of fleshly , soulish, stuff to wash off. So, when you align and don't do that old bad behavior, the holy ghost spirit inside you ( what he died to give us as a true Christian and not all that religion) and it starts washing you off. You health, improves dramatically if you really endeavor to follow him. Seek him with prayers is like putting gas in a car in the spirit world. It's a spiritual medium for him to link up with you, communicate with you, warn you, protect you, lead you, guide you.. As you relax and trust this process the sin that is in our soul .... and flesh that has been accumlated over a life time started to recede as you are washed in wonderful gift. You become childlike again, experience joy like on the level that you felt as a child because your bonds of unforgiveness have been released through repentence, that nasty word repentence, but my experience of repentence was just this wonderful letting go on a profound level. He just want you to recognise all tha nasty stuff you did in relationship, etc, driving your way to the top at work becuase you are compusive greeding little piglet, or that you are arrogant in your point of view and.. we all are.. but now all that stuff just backs off and you have this peace, the peace that goes beyond all understanding the bible talks about.. hey...I could go on but really you have to think of it in terms of like a paradigm shifts and it is a transformational experience like no other. It's wonderful that is why their are some Christians who don't really communicate very well but they are all excited and overwhelming you trying to communicate something they really can't explain well. I'm a biblical coach and part of our training is to get those truely wanting to help you people to calm down and listen alittle moreand stop throwing bible verses every 5 secound... they are just human. God give lots of grace for them to go bang their heads to learn..even the the detriment of his reputation because they are his children and he is incredibly tolerant.....
But that is basically what it's really about. While you are in the world you are experiencing a world that is driven by the "Letter" of the law, morally, religiously, but that all changes when you become a true follower and are saved by his grace and mercy. The edge of the "letter" of the law world gets washed off and you become really you. Not all the stuff that the world crammed into you. It's really an amazing process and so you learn that really he did create all this, he really does have a purpose for you- it's the reason you have the gifts that you have and he wants you to use them in the purpose he has for you. You find out you suffered what you did and that was part of maybe your purpose. That nothing is an accident. nothing.
Really good conversation. I enjoyed all the contributions. Hope this helps.
Blessings
Paula Mary
Very interesting hub. Many religious people will say you are wrong to say you do NOT sin, but you do have a point. Looking at it in another light - there are certain cultures where certain SINS are not sins and there are certain cultures where certain SINS are sins. So, it really depends on which perspective one looks at it. But a crime is most certainly the same thing in most cultures.
Melissa - I agree with you entirely. The character of Jesus in the Bible (which I see mainly as an ancient literary compilation) has many wise sayings which are still helpful today. But that does not make the book the word of god. We are all free to learn from any sources and to respond according to our consciences.
Eaglegordon - I can't change that the bible says I am a sinner unless I repent. But I am not bound by the bible. Adherents of the bible can label me any way they like, but I am not obliged to accept their labels, still less their mystical 'remedy' for my fallen state. They are welcome to their beliefs and to apply them to their own community. They have no authority to require others to accept or comply with their particular paradigm.
And please don't label me 'one of these Religious atheists'. It is both rude and wrong. If you read this hub and some of my others, you'll see that I prefer not to close open questions either by faith or denial. I simply leave them open.
The eye - I don't fully understand your point? I agree that lifetime learning with an open mind is important (if that is what you are saying).
Rose Ella - there are no good reasons to rape. And we don't need the bible to understand that. I have the confidence to say rape is wrong without appealing to any book.
Mushy mai - No-one is claiming perfection. I'm offering an alternative (to some) view of the world. Take it or leave it.
Paulamarymillar - that's a clear exposition of the 'born again' Christian position. It is not my position. I'm pleased to be able to say that I experience joy every day and my health is just fine. Everyone is free to find their own way through life and no-one should insist theirs is the only way to fulfilment. (Which you weren't doing :)
Article Spinning - thanks for the response. I've travelled a lot and lived in many different cultures which may partly explain why I have little use for absolutes.
Nice one paraglider. I am not a sinner either. I dont believe in punishments or even heaven or hell. The purpose of life is what we choose for ourselves. So if you think you will be judged, then everybody is going to judge you. If you believe you can make mistakes confidently and pay the price smilingly then that will become true for you. i choose the later, what about you?
ur a buck!
ur a duck, every day u get fuk!
Wow David, how did you escape from the asylum?
Cleanclover - that sounds very much like my own position. Thanks :)
Davidhinds - If you want me to approve a second comment, please try to raise your game, OK?
You sure get some interesting comments here Paraglider. Reading the comments section of this hub is pretty entertaining :). Especially those who keep trying to convert others to their religion, I guess they really did not read the hub even.
SweetiePie - I've never before received 130 comments and 750 page views to one hub in less than a week. Yet I wasn't courting controversy. I went for a catchy title - that I'll admit - but the body of the hub wasn't sensationalist. Clearly lots of people are attracted to the topic :) I think I'll analyse the comments and write a postscript.
Honestly I thought most of your hubs received lots of comments, I did not know. I am sure you were not courting controversy, I just wanted to let you know I find it entertaining when I see new comments on this hub in hubtivity.
Lots of comments, yes, but this one is about 2 to 1 above any previous. Also I think that the ratio of comments to views is high, so obviously people are interested by the topic.
I'm not surprised para, when I had only one or two fans, When i wrote a hub on a similar topic, I picked up a ton of fans (including you), it generated a huge number(for me) of views and comments. I didn't have much to compare it to. I'll be interested to see your post script.
BD - I think you'll see that your position is given credit in the postscript (now available!) Feel free to correct any misrepresentation.
I think #4 is a pretty fair representation of my position.
"Without evidence of such a being ..." mmmm ... evidence is interpreted differently, what I see as evidence, and honestly fariliy obvious evidence, others who appear to be intellgent and honest don't seem to see it. So, while, I don't agree with the presumption of lack of evidence, if that presumption is granted, the argument is logical.
Hi Paraglider - really like this hub - particularly the comment "I think the obsession with sin leads to guilt, making it all the harder simply to behave better in real time," but I believe there is a question (re. belief in the sin principle versus man's basic wrongdoing) in all of this - what about man's regard for the natural law? that basic social law/conscience which everyone adheres to from birth and which inherently guides us to observe the social mores naturally operating within our own society - these mores were (maybe) then incorporated into the legalistic framework but were in existence prior to the assembly of said laws...
regarding the actual use of the word "sin" I like to use the word - it has all sorts of connotations - good and bad - and there is of course degrees of sin i.e. there is the venial and mortal sin - the venial relates to such problematic issues such as lying while the mortal would relate to a true biggie such as murder - much like I guess criminal law versus civil law - degrees of wrongdoing.....however if you do not believe in the sin principle these example are not of much use to you.....
thanks for a most entertaining and though provoking hub. cheers
I am going to throw out something----Anybody heard of a God named "SIN"" He is an egyptian God and will all this out there I think that he would be very pleased with using his name all the time. Just something different for you.. If that be the case, then I definately don't "do" sin. lol
How about you?
Like the postscripts, Paraglider.
It has been interesting to follow the comments, too. Every day, a few more, yet it has remained fairly civilised.
I like Response 1 - Theist with non-personal and non-judgemental God.
I do not like the idea of sin - Developing a moral code based around religion automatically excludes individuals not of that religious persuasion. As a child, I was lucky enough to have a couple of relatives who taught me right from wrong. More importantly, they explained 'why' something was wrong. Sin did not come into it.
LG- WOW!! A "God" named "sin". I learned something new today. You do have a broad range and depth in Theology.
Sufidreamer - The bible agrees with you (at least with what I think you're saying) ...
Romans 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
If a religious law is used as a guide to conscience, it's beneficial in that it leads to doing the right thing.
So, an honest atheist is more righteous before God than a crooked preacher. The important point is that there are no secrets of the heart before God ... going to church, spouting right doctrine etc. won't help much. Nor will claiming a clear conscience if it's not really clear. But, if it is .... mmm... it appears we are judged by what we know, not what we do not know.
Some links for you CW and others who are interested:
http://www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/origsin.htm
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/yah.htm
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anubisss.htm
These should get you started anyway.
LG- I went to the first link and their is a lot of information about "moon god". I will go through other links later. Thanks for including those links. I am so ignorant about so many of these things hence it is nice that you are willing to share this piece of theological history with us.
You have to go down about 1/4 of the pae on the fist one to read about SIN--same as the other ones --the information isn't at the top of the page.
You are welcome to the informaion.
BDazzler - I think that we are on the same wavelength. I have my own religious beliefs, but do not like to impose them upon others. I think that most religions say pretty much the same thing, and I respect the right of everybody to tread their own journey. Returning to the topic, I respect Paraglider's right to not believe in God and Sin. Judging by what I have seen, he is a thoughtful, intelligent and respectful man - that is all that is important.
I believe that morals are far more important than the notion of sin. It is whether we hurt each other that is more important than whether we have 'offended' God. Scripture can be a good moral code, but I had a wonderful Grandfather to teach me right from wrong. Pointing to scripture and saying 'Don't do that - it is a sin' does not teach a child how to think independently, and develop their own moral code.
Just for CW, I had to research the Ramayana recently. As well as being a beautiful story, it carried an interesting message.
LG, that really is interesting, even I as a Pagan didn't realise there was an Egyptian God called 'Sin'.
Rose-Ella-Morton I am not in the least bit offended by what Paraglider has stated. It's his opinion and I'm just putting some food for thought out there.
Please stop trying to interpret what I may feel (you missed the mark there), this goes for others too. I see this far too often. Not just for what I said but what others say too. Let's just take the comments the way they flow. If someone is offended that is their problem.
Now if you believe my comment was out of order, or if you disagree with it, that is wonderful.
If Paraglider can't handle this, He shouldn't publish. If I post something I better be ready for the criticism, attacks, the questions, the challenges, besides the applause, the pat on the backs, the laurels.
Paraglider my apologies on the Religious Atheist comment. But I have encountered them too. I guess the gist of my comment is we can't change certain statements or ideologies. We can ignore or discount them if we don't believe they don't apply to us.
As to my questions they are meant to challenge and could be just as much for me too.
God Bless you
And when we draw our last breath we will know if we are right or wrong.
Para: Did you come here to be popular by arguing? By the way you can find better picture of you.
If you don't sin or sin it does matter. You know who you are in your heart. Being lost for eternity it does not matter what you do. Since you do not have any covenant with God thats the trouble.
But Jesus loves you anyway my friend.
There are some few errors.
If you don't sin or sin it does not matter.
Thats good to know, so we can sin all we want and it doesn't matter right? thats what you said.
LOL Dave, looks like you opened quite a can of worms :D
Misha, every time I log on to a hub where you have commented your profile picture has changed LOL
and as for you GT, between you and Cris it is like watching Laurel and Hardy on the religion forum :)
LOL Cindy, it's just a dream ;)
ParaGlider,
Great Hub, just couldn't get though all the comments. I would need an aid to read it for me and give the cliff notes version in order to intelligently comment. So as for the hub excellent and agreed.
TMG
BD - Thanks. You were indeed the 'principal spokesman' for the 4th camp :)
Ajcor - I am not sure that the 'natural law' really exists independently of basic parental/social instruction. In certain parts of modern UK, for example, the social order has so far broken down that some children are growing up wholly unsocialised and genuinely unaware of the difference between right and wrong. This leads me to suspect that the social mores were not out there to be discovered but were created by early societies in a form of social evolution. (The fittest societies being the ones that don't kill, honour their elders, etc). Thanks for visiting.
LG - a god named Sin - sounds like a Johnny Cash song ;)
Sufi - I have found that the 'flavour' of comments usually takes its lead from the seed hub. Hubs that set out to attack get attacked; thouse that set out to discuss get discussed.
Eaglegordon - I had no problem with any of your comment except the incorrect label, which I mentioned. Your disagreeing with me is your right, and very much part of the discussion I'm hosting here.
Vladimir - I'm interested in open minded discussion. Regarding popularity, maybe there's an element of level 4 Maslow at play? But it's not my prime motive. I have a very full life outside hubpages. I will interpret your statement 'Jesus loves you' to mean 'I believe Jesus loves you', because really that's as much as you can say. Thanks for the visit.
Misha - ah, but these are friendly worms, not like the 'worm that dieth not', which, apparently, is waiting for me in the afterlife ;)
MoneyGuy - yes, lots of long comments. That's why I summarised them in the postscript. Thanks for the visit.
Hi Paraglider, I read this hub when it was first published, but I wanted to mull on it before coming back to comment. Today I re-visited it to find an avalanche of comments. So much discussion over the meaning of a single word! And that's what it is. A single word, but a word which, like the word 'truth' has many facets and angles, and means different things to different people.
Like yourself, my initial encounter with religion was through the Christian church (C of E in my case) and although I haven't been a church-goer for some years, I still admire the basic message, and believe the world would genuinely be a better place if we were all to treat others as we would wish to be treated ourselves. Am I sinner though? To be a sinner in my mind requires a sense of guilt, and certainly I've felt guilty quite a few times in my life, so perhaps I am!
Hi Amanda - Present day Anglican and Presbyterian churches generally seem quite focussed on the message of goodness in this world, as you describe. To me, that always seemed like a good evolution from the earlier 'fire & brimstone' message from (parts of) the Church through history. I deeply regret what seems to me a regressive movement taking hold, more in US than Europe, harking back to the angry, punishing version of Christianity. This is not what you or I grew up with and it seems to have little to offer, except for its own inmates.
Those are my thoughts exactly.
Eaglegordon sorry the first sentence was for you only( you have spoken much truth here). The rest was for those who were offened. I don't like to type.
I fall into group 3, I guess. The way I see it is this. God, as I percieve Him from the Bible, is pure, perfect and Holy, in every imaginable way. Man(kind) fell short of that perfection by (choosing) rebellion, in the garden. This act stained (our) entire being, thereby separating us from (having relationship with) God. So, this is not a case of, as you put it "an offended" God, but rather a loving God, wanting reconcilliation with us. (Both individually, and as a "species"). The sacrifice of Jesus is the mechanism He used to achieve that purpose. Now, the faith issue comes into play as to who accepts the salvation offered (to all). But, as you, and others have so clearly put it, are not compelled to accept it. In one place Jesus tells the story of a wedding that all the friends were invited to, but chose not to attend. Eventually the guest list was extended to any and all. The wedding was fully attended.
The thing that I find sad in all this is, suppose you are right, there is no God, judgment, damnation, heaven, hell, afterlife(of any kind), we have not lost much. Whether we were belivers, nonbelievers, good, bad, wicked, loving hating etc. It's all about the "here and now". But, if the Bible, and it's (truth) IS correct, then what? According to this position, there is NO second chance! The standard is there, even if we say it is not.
Define sin any way you want, but at the end of the day, it separates us from (perfection) God. It's really hard to try and express so much in so little space. The overall concept is rather simple, but to xplain each component takes some doing. Wish I could do it more eloquently. :)
Aka-dj - If the bible, or your interpretation of it, is correct, then yes, the chances are you will go to eternal bliss and I will go to eternal torture. But you know, that is such a mindlessly stupid philosophy that I would actually prefer eternal torture to the eternal bliss offered CONDITIONALLY by something so wicked that it would establish eternal torture for anyone that didn't believe in it. And if you are in favour of eternal torture for anyone, perhaps you should look closely into your heart for traces of humanity.
I am not a sinner. To be a "sinner" would require me to subscribe to the suppressive writings of power-hungry individuals many thousands of years ago.
That would be stupid of me...
CW - that is what I think too. Thanks for visiting.
Aka-dj - my last comment reads harsher than intended. Nothing personal. But the idea that you get one chance so you'd better choose life or else you're damned forever - well, that doesn't sound like a loving god to me.
Thanks. You made your point quite clearly,and I did not expect much more that you gave. Let me give you a (very) simple analogy. One of my daughters ran away from home at 15, got herself in (serious) trouble. I and my wife did not "abuse" her in any way. She was loved and raised with as much love and care as we could give. Way more loving and nurturing than either of our parents raised us.
We loved and supported her as best we could whilst she was "away". Suppose she never came home, got into more trouble, got into drugs, or whatever, which then killed her. Would that have made me a hateful, torturing wicked (or whatever) father? I know we both were profoundly, eternally affected by her actions, and feel it's effects to this very day. But we moved on. She, thankfully returned and all has slowly returned to a very good relationship.
It's not so much that God wants to "torture" anyone, but rather, the absence of His loving presence is void of anything (that can be called) good. I have said it before, that the torture, or hell, or lake of fire is not made for man, but satan and his followers. Now as to why God chose to vanquish him (them) that way, I cannot answer.
See, without sin, there is no need for salvation. Without condemnation, there is no need for mercy. Without judgment there is no need moral standards. That is what I see as the consequences of rejecting (god). What is there to constrain "evil"? We all become a "law" or standard unto our own. Each does as he pleases, without limitations.
So what sin did your daughter commit? You are putting your emotions onto a loving and merciful and all knowing God. That isn't right and that is very wrong. So in your analogy you are playing God with your daughter or putting yourself in his place---did you daughter sin and remove herself from your love---not a chance--she only removed her life into, which she thought, a better one, but her love still stayed with you and you apparently still love her. You never once told her that if she didn't do as you asked of her that she would go to hell or be made to feel more quilt for her actions-that is what you are saying that your God does.................he doesnt' do that at all. He knows unconditional love and most christians cannot even fathom that, let alone even understand it a single tiny bit.
Sorry LG. I did not play God. My post was an analogy, internded in the same way as Jesus told parables and stories to get His message across. Please read it as it was intended. (the whole post).
I have nothing to add other than to say, Holy shit! It sure is easy to get the godbotherers upset. You are a bigger man than me Paraglider. I can't stand them with their pious better than thou attitudes and already know that, unlike your worldly view I am as fixed as they are.
If they truly want to be offended they could look at my hub. I know they will not, and I will not pimp it here. I am so obviously opposed to religion and not at all tolerant of their ignorant rants that I have not even invited their comments, but told them to piss off right at the start.I only preach to the unconverted!
I am immune to sin according to the bible as a "born again christian" (previous when young and stupid)
By the way I read every single comment.Very entertaining
and fabulous hub!
Yes, way to many fingers go pointing these days rather than turning in their own direction. Christianity should be more about love than rules or rules will dominate the religion and love will be spare then what's the point? I believe, after all, that the ultimate goal of Christianity is to love.
Aka-dj - {{See, without sin, there is no need for salvation. Without condemnation, there is no need for mercy. Without judgment there is no need moral standards.}}
1. right. We don't need sin or salvation. 2. right - We don't need external condemnation or mercy. 3. right, but there is judgment - societal and personal judgment - so there are moral standards, without god.
Earnesthub - I had hoped in this hub to demonstrate that religion is just one of the many optional ways of self actualisation (after Maslow). To say, if you like, by all means be religious but accept that it is your preferred irrationality, so don't insist it should be mine too. But I don't think the message got through!
Writer Rider - yes.
Hi Para What a hub. I have read each and every comment and every one of your considered and well thought out responses. Sin is a bit like alcohol "I am XX and I am an alcohlic(sinner) but I have remained sober (not sinned) for X days,years weeks" As you say, you have to acknowledge the one to accept the other. BTW I was brought up as an Anglican and experienced both fire and brimstone as well as love and compassion and neither of these two tenets require a prerequisite religous stance. Take Ghandi and Mother Theresa as prime examples!
I wish you a wonderful holiday in the UK and a fabulous 2009.
Sixtyorso - I take my hat off to you for reading all 165 comments! The responses to this one took me by surprise, but after a week it seems to be easing down.
To you too, have a great New Year!
aka-dj
I did read the whole post and you misread mine. Please read it again to get the message I was intending.
Enjoyed your hub, Paraglider. I couldn't wade through all the responses to it, though, so appreciated your summary of them.
You have a fine mind.
My last reply, no3. Our prisons populations are growing. A sign of breakdown of "personal" judgment, and that only accounts for the ones getting caught. Societal standards, are judeo/christian foundation. Try removing the biblical standards and influence and see what you get.
Whilst on that subject of "religious" influence in legislation, the same holds true in Islamic governments. I can only think of communism, as a governmental example. where an attemp was made to secularise as completely as possible.
Need I say more on that.
Teresa - thanks for the read & comment. I've appreciated several of your comments elsewhere, especially in the forums.
Aka-dj - people will come up with more or less the same set of laws whatever tradition they come from. There are many factors behind the perceived breakdown of standards, not least among which is the deliberate promulgation of stupidity and greed by the high priests of consumerism.
Para there are some interesting takes on Original sin
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm as well as wikepaedia's comment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin
Whilst I understand that you are not talking about the "stain from Adam" which was the original inherited sin by all man, The presupposition here from a Catholic viewpoint is intersting making us all sinners. St Paul had his own views.
I think it's awesome, sixtyorso, that you can admit your drinking problem. So many don't and the problem worsens. Like Britney Spears' tailspin.
Sixtyorso - I was referring to the 'inherited' theory of original sin, whereby Adam's guilt is passed on to all generations. But I suppose that anyone who believes in the garden of Eden story might just as well also believe in inherited sin, as one notion is really no stranger than the other. What Paul and Catholics have in common (!) is the belief that their faith represents truth. I don't follow them there.
Paraglider I believe that's why it's called a belief. All faiths claim that and Catholics, though hated by so many Protestants, have done nothing to them these last couple of hundred years to warrant such animosity. We're not preachy.
Perhaps it's all part and parcel of self-verification?
True Amanda. In the end religion doesn't even matter. It's a just a stepping stone to spirituality.
Writer Writer I am not ( a least I think not) an alcoholic but I was using that line from AA with the XX's in the names and dates to illustrate a point. I do enjoy a good wine but dont drink beer any more due to health and weight concerns as you can see in some of my hubs.
But I 'll take the awsome bit from you anyway!
Writer Rider & Amanda - most faiths do indeed claim to have 'the' truth. That exclusiveness is one of the biggest problems with faith and one of the main reasons faiths are best kept well away from politics and legislation. Spirituality implies a spirit, which can of course be the human spirit, or, I would suggest, a well-developed aesthetic, an openness to joy.
Sixtyorso - I thought WR was joking about the AA formula :)
Sixtyorso, you can keep the awesome. Sorry for the misconspection. Ya, I know someone who believes beer is not alcohol.
Para, that's my problem to. If there is to be no separation of church and state, which religion would the government follow? The Catholic religion? The Baptist relgion? The Methodist Religion? Judaism? Islam? Hinduism? Buddhism...And what if the rules are against the other person's religion?
WR - where are you writing from? In US, you have separation and individual members of government are free to follow their own preferences. Having said that, there seem to be some who are trying to erode that freedom by loudly insisting the US should be a Christian country (by which they mean, their brand of Christianity of course). I live most of the year in an Islamic country, but one where sharia law is subordinate to state law and there is freedom of worship, but not freedom to proselytise.
Paraglider- I studied in a Midwest University (in USA) and there was a bible study group to which one my students was a member (as a graduate student I was helping an undergrad student who was taking a course from my Prof). She once told me that Mormons are not "Christians" and it is a great sin to twist the message of Jesus. Till that point I never knew that even in Christianity each group thinks so differently about other groups. Hence even if US was indeed officially made a Christian country even then which brand of Christianity to be chosen would be debated by many. I guess the best approach should be to have religious practices to be followed in privacy of their homes and being secular in public places.
Countrywomen - as far as possible, government should be rational, or at least pragmatic rather than idealistic. Individual members should keep their personal beliefs to themselves. But we always have to be on guard against factions taking over, whether religious, family, caste, single-issue types (e.g. pro-lifers), etc.
Hi Paraglider,
Whenever I read about the different brands of Christianity I'm always reminded of a scene from Life of Brian :
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
I apologise to anyone who clicks on this and is offended by the language, but it is a very funny clip.
Yes. I think JC would have been able to laugh about it too. (If it weren't so pathetic)
Para, yes, I'm in the U.S. Ever since they helped George Bush win the presidency in 2004 (no offense to anyone Christian), quite a few Christians seem to have become power hungry.
One story that this hub brought to mind was that of a student I had, who was excused for her misbehavior because she was a Christian. In class she had been throwing objects into peoples' heads, such as paper clips and paper balls, and I finally caught her in the act. This may seem like a small thing to some, but she had been doing this over several days, so I sent her to the principal's office during the assembly. One of the Christian teachers on campus said I should not have sent her to the office because she was a good kid that went to the Christian Bible study at the school and her parents would be upset. He thought she should not be punished just because she went to Christian club, but any other student that was not one of his favorites would have been reprimanded for their misbehavior.
paper clips today, rockets tomorrow... (well, maybe not :)
This is a subject about which no one can claim to know the actual 'Truth'. We are either relying on our own experiences, hearsay, our intellect or the available scriptures (like Bhagvad Gita which you've mentioned in your profile). For myself I have made it as simple as this...."1. Don't hurt anyone intentionally and 2. Live and let live". Thx
Anjalichugh - As a code for action, your works as well as any. Mine (similar) would be - Do as little harm as possible. However, seeking after knowledge is separate from action and I agree with you that absolute truth cannot be known. The aim is to recognise the point at which you just can't know the answer, and remain agnostic on the open question (while always trying to refine the question). Thanks for the read.
Greetings,
I believe each human being is a sinner. The bible tells us that the sin nature, or fallen nature, is passed down through Adam, yet through Jesus Christ we are made alive, if we have put our trust in Him.
I myself have experienced what Gods word tells us as being born again, it is a real experience, God is true to His word. As a believer I still sin and will still be tempted to sin until I am out of this body, and with the Lord. My spirit has been given life, through Jesus, but I wait for my glorified body. So like the apostle Paul said that when we are ' saved ' ( born again ) we then have a war raging between our new born spirit and our old flesh which our spirit still dwells in. When a person has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit they experience this conflict, which will endure until they are finally at home with the Lord in glory. When Jesus was on the cross 2000 years ago all of my sins were in the future, and His last words were ' It is finished ', meaning the debt of sin, which was death was now completed. For a person to appropriate the forgiveness of sins for themself and experience the new life Jesus bought with His blood, they only need invite Jesus into their life and admit they are a sinner, which God will honor and save them. This may not be a popular message yet it has the power to save the soul. God honors the man or woman who trusts in His Son, for whom He sent. A firefighter who sets forth to save a human from a burning building doesnt stop to ask if they would like to be saved, he goes in to accomplish the task, as did God see that we the human race are on our way to hell, sent His Son to die in our place, which is a miracle in itself, and said whomsoever will put their trust in me I will save. Jesus stands at the door of each persons heart and knocks and knocks to come in, the door can only be opened to Him from the individual, God will not force Himself in.
the Lord bless,
Brandynne
Brandynne - that's a very clear statement of your belief system, which I accept (as yours). And I appreciate that many people share it. I only ask you to accept that it is not mine. You begin by saying "the bible tells us..", and so it does. I have read it too. But I (and many others) do not give special credence to the bible, which I see as an ancient literary anthology, not as the word of god. There is no need for you and I to try to convert each other, nor to argue over it. Thanks for visiting and commenting.
There is a good movie that was back in 1977-78 that was about the 23rd Century... Survivors of war are living in a dome city from the world outside. Here, in an ecologically balanced world, mankind only lives for pleasure. Freed by the servo-mechanisms which provide everything.There's just one catch. Life must end at thirty, unless reborn in the fiery ritual.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WUUnc1M0TA
Weather whatever whomever believes everyone is a sinner...even the one's who say they are born again through Jesus....The only difference or should I say one of the many differences between the one who says they are born again are promised eternal life and the ones who are not are not promised anything...The author, of this attempt to gain hits and popularity or is really reaching out for grace to be revealed to them? Says they are not a sinner, is a lier...All Have Sinned and Fall Short of the Glory of God(Romans 3:23).
Now that brings us to what is sin?
estrangement from godan act that is regarded by theologians as a transgression of God's willcommit a sin; violate a law of God or a moral law A sin is not a "mistake" we all make poor descisions, some greater than others...Regardless of our mistakes we all have committed one or all of what is the definition of sin above. We should not be consummed with who sins and who does not sin...The bigger picture is that There is hope! Through prayer, invite Jesus into your life to become your personal Saviour.
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."(Romans 10:10)
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)
What to pray:Dear God, I am a sinner and need forgiveness. I believe that Jesus Christ shed His precious blood and died for my sin. I am willing to turn from sin. I now invite Christ to come into my heart and life as my personal Saviour.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"(John 1:12)
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."(2 Corinthians 5:17)
If you have received Jesus Christ as your Saviour, as a Christian you should:
Read your Bible every day to get to know Christ better.
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)
"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." (Psalms 119:105)
Talk to God in prayer every day.
"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Matthew 21:22)
"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." (Philippians 4:6)
Be baptized in the holy spirit, worship, fellowship, and serve with other Christians in a church where Christ is preached and the Bible is the final authority.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19)
"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."(Hebrews 10:25)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:16)
Please if these verses offend you then figure out why...but this is what the word of God teaches...referred as the bible, which has and will always stand the test of time...ohh and please excuse my misspellings I do make spelling and grammatical mistakes sometimes.... :)
Nita - I think you have completely failed to understand this hub. The thesis is simply this- people choose to find fulfilment in whatever irrational pursuit most appeals to them. They are not then entitled to insist theirs is the best or the only 'answer'. You choose to believe that the Bible is the word of God. Your choice does not make it so, It is just possible that you could be wrong.
I absolutely forgive your spelling and grammatical errors (since you ask me to) but I strongly recommend you re-examine your logical errors.
Thanks for commenting.
You have covered a heck lot of interesting stuff in this hub, Paraglider. Thanks for sharing this. And thanks too to all others who helped to make it interesting, even those who didn't think as Paraglider did.
I sometimes have something witty to say but I will simply quote a bumper sticker and leave it at that.
"Atheists don't exist because God doesn't believe in them."
Steve - the trouble with bumber stickers is that we've all heard them before. Even so, that one is superficially smart but is just an exercise in question-begging. Many are :)
Articles Spinning - thanks for commenting and sorry I missed it till now.
i believe everyone sins. we sin against God when we don't keep His commandments. we are all accountable for our sins ie; lies, idols, murder, what ever it is that is wrong is sin. to be mad at your brother is murder in the Bible! i have hopes of going to heaven. what's your destination?
Wait, now to be mad is a sin---where is that in that Bible of yours? Now Jesus was mad at the church and at other people and he was perfect......so he sinned too? What a great idol hmmmm...what's wrong with that picture?
I was sitting thinking about all this sinner stuff and it occured to me the phrase: Misry loves company. Seems to me that one person that possibly wrote something on some thing sinned and or got into trouble--so now this person wants everyone to join him and so everyone is the sinner because that one person is..........sounds kind of immature eh?
Kind of like that other saying: "I know you are but what am i"
Matthew 5:21,22 nkjv
21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
i'm not here to start any conflict, just stating i am a follower of Christ, i know where i am going. an atheist doesn't get into heaven
Jesus saves us
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother WITHOUT A CAUSE........
Which version is that you say? Who wrote it and how old were they? Whose Raca? That seems to be who they are talking about in that sentence. What does the rest of the chapter say?
How says so and who judged me an athiest....only your God and mine for your info can judge anyone. We also judge ourselves---cause and effect==karma----it is biblical I have proved it to a few already.
Lady Guinevere
im sorry if you thought i was calling u a atheist, i was not. i was saying any non believers of Christ. God is the only judge, not me or anyone else for that matter. the NKJV. God wrote the Bible.
Paraglider
i apologize, i did not want to turn this into a debate.
Jesus_saves_us - According to your belief system, everyone sins. But if you read the hub you'd see that belief systems _by definition_ cannot be justified. All belief systems are on the far side of a leap of faith. Having made that leap, you are entitled to apply your rules to others in the same place as yourself. But not to assume that your rules are 'the truth' to be applied universally. Sin is part and parcel of the god belief which is entirely optional. Note - I do not claim to do no wrong. But wrongdoing, for me, is societal and personal. As I know of no god to offend, I don't need to call it sin.
Whether or not you believe in Paraglider's contentions, you have to admit that it provides an arena for decusion and that is always a good thing.
RVilleneuve - open minded discussion is always a good thing. Thanks for commenting.
I'm a #2 on your list. I think the difference is mere semantics.
Let's say 'sin' is an action or actions you take which ultimately grind at you psycologically and make you feel badly about yourself. Let's say then that if you recognize this and try to make better choices, you like yourself better and have a genuinely higher self-esteem, which in turn makes you continue to treat yourself and others better and better. Let's then say others do this also. Utopia, yes?
I'm approaching this from a psychological aspect, not a religious aspect, but to me, all these things come together.
Hi Iðunn - Number 2 is quite a big camp :) Sometimes though, I think subtlety requires distinctions that can be dismissed as mere semantics but only at the risk of reducing the depth of understanding. Thanks for the visit!
It's always a delight to talk with you. Truly an interesting Hub.
The only way for a a man to be without sin is the perfect obedience of ALL God's laws. That's impossible for a human to do so we are all sinners. You can be a sinner saved by grace, though. Ask Jesus about it sometime.
RVDaniels - Your last sentence 'Ask Jesus about it sometime' comes across as rather sarcastic. However, I note that you agree with me that sin means disobeying or falling short of God's laws. So, sin requires belief in God. Without any such belief, sin disappears, along with the angels, archangels and all the rest. It's a religious concept, for the religious. Thanks for commenting.
Have you ever lied? Revelation 21:8 "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all LIARS, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
1 John 1:10 "If we say, "We have never sinned," we turn God into a liar and his Word is not in us."
Pam - thanks for dropping in and telling me that I will burn in hell. How can I, who see no evidence of God, turn a non-existent 'Him' into a liar? If you read the hub through, you'd notice that I admit to wrong-doing. But sin? No. That's between you and your God. I don't need to go there.
We are all sinners saved by Grace! Where do you find Biblical research that say's you are not a sinner when you do something that is wrong? I would love an out :) But am happy knowing that as a sinner, I am saved by asking for forgiveness, receiving it,and endeavoring not to repeat the same sin, and continuing on knowing that God does not expect perfection out of me, just sincere repentance.
Kebennett - I don't have Biblical research showing I am not a sinner. I don't share your belief system and don't see the Bible as an authority in my life. So, please accept that if I say I am not a sinner, I mean it.
Simple defination of sin is: When we do wrong to the extent of hurting or harming others physically or emotionally for our personal happiness or gains it becomes a sin.
Sonal - that definition would not be accepted by religious groups who require God in the equation. That is why I prefer to steer clear of the word and rely on rational ethics instead. Thanks for contributing.
i just thought about Maslows hierarchy of needs, what about guilt...when you feel guilty, does it mean also you think you have sinned?
in your definition of sins, sure you dont have a sin,,,but that is for your own sake only, for those who are believers..it is more than that of course
Feelings of guilt come from falling short of your own ethical code, from the realisation that you have let yourself down in your own eyes. There is no need to call that sin.
Believers do not have the right to require me to share their concepts of sin and redemption. To impose that on others is no more reasonable than insisting that everyone must play golf.
yes of course you are correct there.
Enlydia Listener says:
12 months ago
INTERESTING READ...THE VOICE TELLS ME, "THERE ARE NO MISTAKES"....MAYBE THAT IS SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.