Invasive Job Applications: When to Run, When to Punt
80This Hub is an Answer to a Posted Request
The original question as posted was:
Why are employers asking such stupid questions in there Job Applications and generally requiring volumes of information for a $8 an hour job?
Always Dress for Success
Times are tough.
But do tough times justify an interview process that treats the prospective applicant like a dog? What can an employer reasonably demand of an applicant and what information is simply none of the employer's business?
How should an applicant field illegal or invasive questions? (Why do you ask? Hmmm?) How long and how hard should an applicant pursue an entry level job that he or she doesn't really even want?
When should a job applicant put up with endless nonsense, and when should that same person put down her pencil and just quietly go back home?
Lots of people will say, "That's easy. Times are tough so do what you have to do to get that job and don't be a smart ass. Be respectful, answer any questions asked, and look and act your best no matter how low the pay or how menial the work, and keep at it until you get a job, any job. There are no bad jobs; just bad workers."
But let's be serious for a moment here.
There are bad jobs, and in most economies those bad jobs are filled by bad workers who don't really want those jobs themselves, but can't get anything else. When economies tank, those same bad jobs attract PhDs, MIT computer wizards, and former investment bankers and CEOs.
Yes, you know how to say, "Would you like fries with that?" without your gum falling out of your mouth or spittle dribbing onto your Violent Femmes t-shirt, but during a severe recession that skill unfortunately won't be enough to get you hired. Since you'll be competing with people who did post-graduate work at the Sorbonne, starting out with an attitude could indeed hurt your chances when times are tough.
Or not.
Listen, I know that the right AMERICAN type thing to say here is,
"Straighten up! Learn how to spell the word 'there' and use it correctly for chrissake, and quit whining!"
But another part of me also knows that employers really are getting out of control. Today's minimum wage job application is likely to include a urine test, a twenty-page personality test, a math test, multiple interviews, a criminal background check, a credit check, photocopies of birth certificates, driver's licenses, insurance papers, three references, a college degree, and in some cases, a blood sample.
Is all that really necessary?
Come on, really?
The Era of the 'Good Job' is Ending
Actually, the era of the 'good job' might already over.
The days when anyone could expect to interview for a company that looked like a good fit, put a shiny hopeful face forward, get hired, work hard, get ahead, and retire from that same company are long gone.
Most employers today don't want you to stay around, and they make sure to construct the work environment so that you can't get comfortable even if you want to. Many, many corporate jobs have an 'expiration date' secretly stamped on their miserable little butts--usually between 6 months and two years--after which time you'd better move up, move over, or get out.
Looking for work has always been a bit of a game, even before the corporate model became dominant: a social ritual in which all parties know that they are, in some sense, lying at least a little bit but toward a shared purpose.
Back in the day however, applying for a job meant talking to a real person who owned a real business that needed real help, and who therefore had real preferences and ideas and indiosyncracies and community contacts and so on and so forth.
You'd go meet this real actual human being and tell him or her about yourself and your skills, and if you were lucky, you'd get offered a position that you would then have to decide whether or not to accept.
Again, those days are mostly gone.
Now, most job applications start online. Many big corporations don't even allow any other method of applying for work. You go to their web site and fill out some online forms and there you will be asked to upload or copy and paste a resume and cover letter. Then you get a confirmation email, and in most cases you never hear from that place again.
That's the end. That's all she wrote.
If you are 'lucky' however, you may be invited to take some more tests, usually psychological assessments with hundreds of difficult multiple choice questions that go something like this:
Under which of the following circumstances is it acceptable for an employee to steal?
A) Hunger.
B) Boredom.
C) Sheer perversity.
D) It is never acceptable for an employee to steal.
You may also be asked to take a series of skill tests and you will definitely fill out some more forms. (Closing on real estate is now easier and requires fewer signatures than your standard corporate application process.)
If that goes well, you get another confirmation email and a request to call an 800 number, where you are asked some more cryptic questions ("How would you handle it if a customer started screaming at you for no apparent reason and brandished a firearm?") and if you answer in a satisfactory manner ("I'd say, 'Sir, I understand that you are upset, I feel your pain and l'm here to help you. Let's take a look at what's going on...'") then you'll be scheduled for a 'preliminary phone interview'.
You'll wait by your phone at the appointed time and when it rings you'll pick it up and answer still more hypothetical questions about completely insane corporate situations, all in your best most mellow voice, explaining all the things you really don't want to have to ever say to anyone ever but now realize you will be expected to say pretty much hundreds of times a day should you actually get the job. You'll make it clear that you really want to do that, that in fact it's all you've ever wanted to do in your entire life.
If your preliminary phone interview goes well, then it's on to the intake session at HR headquarters, wherever that may be, where you'll take still more tests, jump through more hoops (along with dozens of other finalists), and if that all goes well you'll receive instructions on where to go pee in a cup.
Your pee-in-a-cup session will take anywhere from ten to ninety minutes depending on how many people are in the waiting room waiting to do the exact same thing. (Though not in the exact same cup.)
Then you go home and wait some more. By this time you've invested close to a full day's work in these application procedures alone, lied your ass off over and over with a big smile on your face (and in your voice!), driven all over hell's half acre, and you still haven't made a single dime and you still may or may not be hired.
Hallelujah, the call finally comes.
You passed your pee test, so now it's time to fax all the appropriate documentation proving you are not a member of Al Qaida nor are you your own grandpa, and also proving that you have good insurance with decent liability limits. No matter how you fax these papers, at least one of them will not be received and you'll have to do it all over again.
Once HR finally has all copies and papers it absolutely must have, it's on to the final in-person interview and, if you're doing well, a tour of the facilities and signatures on all the appropriate waivers and disclosure forms informing you of policies you already can't remember, including the form saying you can be fired at will and you totally understand that and are cool with it.
Then, more waiting.
Finally the call comes. You got the job. It starts at $8 an hour and you grab it.
Three weeks later you're laid off due to budget cuts.
Welcome to corporate America, sucker.
Come on, Pam, Tell Us What You REALLY Think!
Does this sound extreme?
It's not. It's a fairly accurate depiction (with, I admit, some warranted sarcasm) of the last three job applications I made that resulted in an actual job.
The first one, nine years ago, was for a major global property & casualty insurer. I started that job at $13.13 per hour. The second, three years ago, was for a major retail bank. I started there at $10.00 an hour, which is definitely the wrong direction pay-wise, but it took me so long to find anything I grabbed it like it was gold.
The most recent and most invasive of all, just before Christmas of 2008, was for a 12-15 hour job as a route service merchandiser that required the use of my car and paid $10 an hour.
I took the first two jobs, but by the end of the process on the most recent one, I decided I don't like working for corporations very much and I don't think I want to do that anymore. Seriously, thanks but no thanks. If I'm not worth any more than that in corporate America, I am at least worth more than that to myself.
Here's what I think:
I think that ideally, the interview and application process is a two way street during which both both prospective employer and prospective employee are checking each other out and deciding whether or not the relationship will work. That's why it's important to play the game all the way to the end before making a decision, and that's why you want to put your best face forward and spruce yourself up and use good grammar and so forth.
But ten years of making less and less money at crummier and crummier entry level positions that are harder and harder to get have convinced me that we are fast approaching the point in this country where something new has to happen. The old model doesn't work. Not only is there no free lunch, there's no lunch at all. (Lunch? You're eating lunch? Slacker!) This is not opportunity, it's exploitation, and I for one have had enough of it.
I have two college degrees and almost forty years of work experience and I still have to fight the PhDs for the privilege of making the coffee at entry level jobs that pay less and less by the minute. Yes I know times are hard.
Would any of us even want these jobs if times weren't hard?
But if people can't see some glimmer of opportunity or appreciation in a work situation, even if it's far far down the road, at some point, they'll quit working. They'll 'just say no' to corporate work.
And I think that's a perfectly valid response.
I currently work for myself. I'm not getting rich but I'm getting by. I can work in my jammies. I've met some really nice clients and really nice people.
And I don't have to ever pee in a cup. (Unless I want to.)
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Comments
Oh yes, this is a common question on those multiple choice personality tests. Often it is asked multiple times but phrased slightly differently each time to trip up the applicant, and if simple changing the sentence construction and repeating the question over and over again will reveal hidden larcenous tendencies that would otherwise go undetected.
Thanks for your comment!
Pam, I'm going to riff on your pitch-perfect hub about my own equally appalling experiences, if you have no objections. I've become so angry, intermittently hysterical, and increasingly fat (it's the cortisol) from the stress that one ass-o after another has put me through that I need the catharsis desperately.
I look forward to comparing notes when I get mine on digital paper. After that, I suggest we start a movement. I have the perfect name. You'll see it at the top of my hub.
Many thanks for the inspiration. I'm Digging you upstairs - there must be millions like us at this point who will find more than a little relief in reading it.
Hi Mindfield! I can hardly wait to read your riff on this topic! I know it will be excellent, and I'm all for starting a movement. :)
Seriously, I think things are changing very deeply and very rapidly, and some what is being lost probably deserves to be lost. I hope we all come out the other side in a better place.
Spot on again.
BTW Even the "good" jobs aren't good any more because of a pervasive ambience of suspicion and paranoia. I guess the "good" jobs start at what would you say... $18/hr? I had a "good" job making $22.10 an hour and they had rigged it so that I couldn't possibly do a good job of it -- they provided me with a large number of broken tools and casual corporate indifference and so I and everyone else in my group ended up spending our time manually doing things that the software should have been doing. If you complained you were fired. You tried to make "metrics" instead of really helping the customers. If they sold a decent product to begin with, the support would not have been so expensive. We rarely dealt with "is it plugged in?" type of things. Almost all our customer issues had to do with bona fide defects or inadequate documentation. As one of my more "successful" co-workers used to say, "at XXXXX we provide the illusion of support." Stupid me, I really wanted to DO support, not tell them to turn journaling on, pack their logs up and send it to me so I could get them off the phone and hope they solved it themselves while they were waiting for me to call back, which of course, I could hardly ever do, because I was always busy taking new phone calls telling the next caller the same thing.
Second, once I got a bite from a guy who was offering a network engineering position. He was majorly enthusiastic about me and it actually seemed genuine.. .... until they sent me online to take a "personality test." Stupid me. I answered the questions honestly. After that I received a curt letter stating they were no longer interested in me. I told a good friend that I had answered the questions honestly and he practically fell out of his chair laughing and saying, "Colleen I thought you were smart! Sheesh"
Fair enough. If the question is:
You are having a problem with a coworker what do you do?
A. Kill him, B. Kill your boss, C. Blow up the entire building, D. Have a dialog with him with your boss present.
the "correct" answer is pretty obvious.
But it was more like: Of the following who is your favorite artist?
A. The Beatles B. Bruce Springsteen, C. Guns & Roses, D. Black-eyed Peas
What is the "correct" answer there? They didn't have a "none of these" option.
Hi hot dorkage--Yes! I have answered those questions as well. I remember one particular personality test that had all these questions about whether or not I liked sports, and then it got down to teams and kinds of sports, and it wasn't a job that that kind of question seemed to have any relevance to--God I hate those tests.
I know what you mean about metrics. At my last two jobs they called them 'stats'. Everything--raises, promotions, rewards--all of it depended on having 'good stats', which, in order to get, you practically HAD to run right over the customer. I got 'good stats'--by the time I left the insurance company I was make $18.87 an hour and my blood pressure was 210/100 and I was on three antidepressant/antianxiety meds and had chronic neck and facial pain and carpal tunnel. I was so freaking miserable you can't imagine. (Scratch that, I'll bet you can.)
I took the bank job to be with Bill, so we could move north, and it was better at first, then so much worse. I left that job in an ambulance and didn't have the heart (literally) to go back.
The hilarious thing is, I get a weekly Monster.com email alerting me to new jobs in my area, and since October there is only one job listed in the email: CSR at the call center for the same bank (which is now owned by a different bank, as the one I worked for went belly up shortly after I left).
I give up. I'm just cutting back on spending, pulling in, taking freelance work, and putting one foot in front of the other. I'd muck out horse stalls before I entered another corporate call center. And I'm not kidding either. Thanks for your comments. :)
Pam, this is splendid. I ran into it in the early 80s when I went from random couch surfing and the sorts of jobs you get by meeting the owner to things I had to put on a tie and go to interviews for. It got steadily nastier by the year since then.
The only time I ever got hired by an actual corporation was also the only time I ever got fired for being gay, because I came out to one other night shift employee who promptly reported that the spouse I mentioned occasionally with pride in how long we'd been together was another man.
I then got fired for "conduct unbecoming the company" and got disgusted with the whole thing, fortunately before the mandatory company picnic. It was a "family company" as abusive as any dysfunctional family I've ever met or experienced.
I drew a line after that and never bothered to apply for anything where I didn't meet the owner in person, any company with more than 50 employees. Nonetheless, I got jobs pretty darn fast because I evolved a method of spending the first week cold calling businesses I chose by category five days a week during business hours.
I found out that unlike real people whose dinners get interrupted, businesses expect cold calls from employment agencies all the time. Then they discover something cost effective about it if the call is from an individual who wants a job.
They can fill an opening with a qualified person lots cheaper and faster by just hiring that go-getter than having to spend three weeks interviewing all the competition and paying for the ad or paying the employment agency. As soon as I answered the ONE question that mattered "Do you represent an employment agency?" with "No, I represent myself, I'm just looking for a job," that would always result in "please send your resume and fill out our application" and about one in ten times with an interview date.
I'd have five or six interviews by the end of the week, go to all of them and wind up finding the one I wanted by looking at the interviewing process, judging the interviewer and the facility. If they had too much of that corporate foofaraw I'd go through it and wander out and scratch it off, usually with a job in hand by the time any of those got back to me.
Persistence can pay on certain types of jobs. Putting in an application by hand and checking it every single week at the grocery nearest your house and answering the question on it clearly with "I want to work at this branch because it's right by my house in walking distance, I hate commuting" will actually filter through the whole corporate foofaraw of chain groceries and come back to the manager who knows you mean it and recognizes your face and genuine interest.
Pure stubborn every week checking your app will push you up in the queue for grocery and chain store jobs. You become "someone I know" even if you didn't know anyone who worked there.
That's if you want an actual job with W2 and corporate policies and all that rigmarole anyway. It's still a lot simpler and easier to put up a card in the same grocery that says you walk dogs, maintain perennials, paint bedrooms or help people move -- if I were to lose my Social Security I would get someone, probably Lisa, to drive me all over Lawrence to put up a flyer with a good scan of a cat portrait and a reasonable price scale for getting a good pastel portrait of your cat based on size and medium.
I'm sure I'd get enough to get by on if my health held out (the reason I don't just do it is that I've had way too many spring months that I barely managed two minute gesture sketches), but in an emergency I could do that. Most people have a skill like that they could use to turn into a decent living. And if they want it to be painting cat portraits, buying a couple of Walter Foster books on drawing cats and spending eight hours a day studying and practicing it would give them that skill in a surprisingly short time.
Or even putting in that time online reading and doing every free cat-drawing tutorial they can google -- the amount of free Internet training out there is phenomenal.
The key is self discipline and making yourself do something toward a goal at home during the weekdays on a schedule resembling work when unemployed, whether it's cold-calling to get a new job or training into a skill through Internet sources and local free classes and forums.
I've been kicking my art skills into a new level in just the past six months by hanging out at http://www.wetcanvas.com and found they have an incredible set of basic drawing courses online, free and constantly monitored and supported by volunteer teachers, moderators, guides and just interested professionals.
I could not believe how much my art improved, and it had been good enough to sell for over two decades before I started. So there's another thing too. People who can actually draw well are still relatively rare and having a portfolio of good drawings will shove you out of the range of all the other people who know how to respond to routine questionnaires with lies and pee in a cup for the specialized needs that real drawing supports.
But it takes having a personality leaning toward the arts to be happy doing it or you might get truly bored, if painting all day sounds dull then landscaping could be a much better bet.
Oh yeah, if the street art thing appeals, I have some free tutorials and good articles online at http://www.explore-oil-pastels-with-robert-sloan.c, some Basic Drawing courses and plenty on techniques for oil pastel. Oil pastel has the advantage of being dirt cheap for student grade and moderately priced to supply at artist grade. If the images are getting scanned or made into prints or cards, student grade is definitely good enough.
Hi Robert--Funny how that 'family oriented' thing usually translates to 'we treat you as abusively as only family can!' Seriously, that's too bad about that job but it sounds like you are more resourceful and better off on your own anyway.
Thank you also for the link to your tutorials. Great idea! All the best to you in everything--so glad you are out of the rat race. You have better things to do for sure!
Thankyou and thumbs up for answering my request!
I read your hub out aloud and even the sarcastic comments bought laughter to our living room , the kind that follows a sigh of relief.
Finally its not all in our heads , the nonsense , the stupitity ,though perhaps even more scarey the unbalance of power.
And believe it or not ,the sad thing is the backbone of America was literally built by those same hands who struggle to even use a computer much less apply for a job using one.
Thanks also for letting me vent a little and respecting our intelliengence at the same time.
Your sense of humor was a timely tonic for my family.
God Bless you!
Hi eaglekiwi--I'm so glad it gave you a bit of a laugh! It bothered me ever since reading your request, because I did recognize what you were talking about. You are right, we all built this country with our own hands, all of us, but only some of us are reaping the rewards. God bless you too! Hang in there. :)
Somehow, I don't expect the local newspaper (if you even have one anymore where you live) is going to seek you out to write for their "Careers" section. But no one calls a ridiculous and dire work situation a ridiculous and dire work situation like you, Pam!
Maybe it's exactly because there are so many applicants for such piss-poor jobs that employers have to be uber careful. They need to separate out the desperate and psycho from the merely desperate...
BTW, I love working at home, too, in my pajamas. With my Violent Femmes t-shirt (I LOVE them!).
Thanks for yet another stellar send-up of the employment world. Have you ever thought of collaborating with fellow Michigander (is that sp correct?) Michael Moore??? tee hee. MM
Thanks for the info... Here is anoter bumb question that they ask during interview... What's the hourly rate that you want?
Come on man, I want at least 100k a year and you do the colculations. I want as much as you can give me. :)
How about this? I work in a "well-respected" law firm where they hired a convicted felon to work for one of the partners. Someone didn't think it was important to ask or use that application that asks the all important question: "Have you ever been convicted of a crime?" Great article!
Scratched indeed -- I know how it feels to HATE your life. I quit because the money wasn't *THAT* great, I was just dirt tired all the time, I spent weekends doing laundry and catching up, my garden went to hell, my friends started avoiding me, my husband was at wits' end, as I was literally turning before my very own eyes into the dead-eyed corporate drone I had been fighting my whole life against.
There are bad jobs and then there are BAD jobs. They're all made worse by bad pay, bad benefits and bad attitudes.
I've worked a lot of menial jobs and done a lot of common labor. A lot of those jobs weren't all that bad. They could have paid more but it is what it is.
However physically demanding, dirty or menial manual labor was, nothing was worse than the life of a corporate cubicle dweller.
I had more fun and made more money waiting tables at a nice family restaurant in Kent, Connecticut than as an office manager/sales administrator for a major office supply corporation.
There's just something vile about the atmosphere in a big corporate HQ or those horrid "team building" pep rallies.
I don't know how to explain it but I was always faintly nauseated by the blatant superficiality and the vapid interplay that went on amongst the Jr. executives and ladder climbers and all the little wannabes.
I spent seven years in that environment "working my way up" to managing a sales office. It was barely tolerable and I've never been happier to say goodbye to anything with the possible exception of high school.
To hell with that crap.
I'll take work under the table if I can find it occasionally but I'll never put myself through that "application process" again.
We're getting by and it's actually refreshing to be concerned with what we need rather than what we think we want.
Great Hub again! I've filled out many an application myself and have suffered through interviewers who were somewhat off themselves.
My "favorites" were the ones who said that I was certain to be hired, only to find out later that I didn't get the job.
Then there's all the checking up on you, like credit checks. Even though you're only going to deliver magazines or call people to tell them about a product!
And where references are concerned, well, let's just say that this one always makes me laugh to some extent. After all, does one really think that Barak Obama would list Rush Limbaugh, or that George W. Bush would list Rob Reiner, as references? Of course not! LOL, people are only going to name those who are certain to speak favorably about them. The only time a reference carries real weight is if it is someone with strong credibility that both the prospective employer and prospective employee both know and respect.
I fear that this may get worse. Ever seen the movie, "Gattica"? The only way for all this to stop is if people simply refuse to work for overly invasive employers, even though this would be tough at first.
But there are still some good employers to work for. I was lucky enough to get a job distributing flyers. I also do this on the side for various clients as my own sideline business. For my employer, I only had to fill out a very simple application and they didn't even require references! And, since I work outside, I don't have to worry about office politics and I'm not stuck inside a cubicle. Yes, it apys less, nearly 50 percent less, than the corporate job I had 5 years ago, but I've never regretted leaving that corporate job, and I don't believe I'd ever take a job again, where I'm stuck in an office, unless it is very part time, there's no dress code (or a very very relaxed one!), and the boss and co-workers are ok, with no onerous or oppressive policies, even if the job isn't the best.
Again, great hub!
Good information and yes, some employers do ask the stealing question in a roundabout way ex, if you see a co-worker steal how would you handle it. Be careful here, you will be judged on your answer to the question.
Employers are getting bolder with the type of questions they ask. Here's an FYI for those of us with 30+ years of experience in the work arena; employers are telling us we are "over qualified."
Pam,
It's funny you should write a hub about this subject. Just yesterday I had to take a drug test AND get fingerprinted for a job through a TEMPORARY SERVICE. That is totally ridiculous. The job is doing data entry - at least it's not a call center. I've worked in call centers for many years, I don't want to do that ever again.
The good thing is, I am making a little bit of money doing stand up comedy, writing online, and taking surveys. The money is not enough to pay my bills yet, but the seeds are planted.
Keep up the good work, I always enjoy reading your hubs!
What a great article, I laughed so hard because it is all so true. I have never encountered the "who's your favorite music artist" question, but I have seen the stealing question. Perhaps we are all discovering that the search for money means giving up your dignity and peace of mind. Lately, I have been working only weekends and off the whole week. It is absolutely fantastic. No politics. But more importantly, my outlook on life has dramatically changed, and it feels like I have been drugged for the last few years and now I am thinking clearly. I have to say that working independently is the answer for me. If everyone strived for that, I think we could then get free of being forced to play games to keep your job. Perhaps that movement mentioned above is a great start.
Another thing that comes to mind because I am researching Nationalized Healthcare for my next article, is that often medical benefits are tied into our jobs, this becomes a ball and chain when you depend on it. McCain's plan would have set us free from that garbage. I have not yet researched Obama's health care reform plans in depth, but I believe it has the same potential. In any case, because I am now part time, and I am not sure that I still have my healthcare benefits. Screw it. I know that my health care plan is not perfect, hell, I don't even understand it, but I am better off living healthy than working too much and paying for it with my health. I'll take the risk, and work on establishing myself, income and healthcare wise. Pam, you're right; Scooping poop is a better alternative to office politics.
Mighty Mom--I think you are right about the local newspaper. lol! I never wait by the phone for them to call for any reason. In fact, sadly, our local paper is one of the ones currently hanging on for dear life. I do like being at home, which is good, because I think my chances of getting another job at 56 in this economy are somewhere around sub-zero. Thanks for stopping by!
artrush--I agree, I hate that question. You never know what to say, and yes, I always want to say what you said, like, "How much will you give me? What's the upper limit? Add a couple of bucks to that amount and I'll take it. :)
Hi Dink96--I have a good one too. I worked for PBS in my 30s, and while I was there a new program director had to be hired. So the general manager, who was a bit of a drunk (a nice one, but ok, here's the thing, he was more than a BIT of a drunk) hired this young guy who had no experience whatsoever. So his secretary calls me over (this was highly wrong, but oh well...) and shows me the young guy's resume. The station manager had accidently stapled a very experienced guy's resume to the young guy's resume and hired the young guy, thinking he was an old hand. The only job he had ever had at that point was working on a railroad repair crew. True story. :)
hot dorkage--I got to that same point only by the time I got there I was making less money, not more. My last six months at the bank, I was so burned out, I had a TERRIBLE attitude. NO ONE should stay on the phones for 8 years, no one. I was talking customers into not using banks, ever. And I still don't regret that.
CWB--I totally agree. I've had jobs that paid badly but that's not the same as a bad job. I worked in bookstores for years and I loved that. It paid badly, but I was very happy. That was before Barnes & Noble and Borders took over and all the distributors consolidated into just two huge warehouses. Before that, there were still independents, and I felt like that really was a nice niche for me, but it went away. When I started at the garden center I made $6 an hour and worked like a horse, but I loved that too. Cubicle life is indeed the worst. I think it's very unhealthy.
myway--I particularly dislike credit checks as part of the hiring process. I disliked that even when I still HAD good credit. I just feel like it's none of their business. Do I have the right skills and a good work record? That's all they need to know. They don't need to see what I bought at K-Mart on my VISA last month.I have seen "Gattica"--I think it's not that far-fetched. We could still go there.
nancy's niche--hi, yes I think there's lot of age discrimination. The NYT ran a forum on it a few weeks back, a bunch of business professors. One of them argued that people over 45 should make less each and every year (like, get a negative raise) because statistics show older people are less productive. Sheesh.
john griggs, that's nuts. I'm so glad you are out of the call center though. Good luck on your comedy career! That's VERY exciting! I feel like you--if I never see the inside of another cubicle it'll still be too soon.
Alexander Mark--I'm so glad you got some laughs out of this. We have to laugh or we'll all go nuts, you know? I know what you mean about feeling like you're coming off drugs when you stop working every day at one of these jobs. I totally identify with that. I think that's part of the reason for the long, ridiculous intake process--they want to weed out noncompliant people so that the people they get are people who will do what they say with a smile no matter how toxic and insane it is.
I also like your point about health insurance. That's definitely the only reason I stayed at the bank as long as I did. Then, when I did get sick, and I saw how little of that the insurance covered, I realized the job I was keeping for the health insurance was making me sick, and the insurance wasn't even good for that! It was a real watershed moment. Something has to change, because this is nuts. I have no health insurance, can't get health insurance, but when I did have it, it as kind of a scam. Not that helpful really.
In this time of recession,what can a socialworker can do creatively who still lost his job and struggling hard to live but dont want to waste knowledge,resourses and my potentalities.Your articles are so inspirative for a job seeker.Can you direct a positive and progressive method for a jobseeker in Europe with social commitment in this period of recession without losing my hope and optimism and drive to do good for the betterment of the community .
Hi socio-worker--I'm afraid I'm not much of an expert on how to find a job in Europe. Where I live, there just aren't many jobs of any kind. Lots of people are doing volunteer work that they care about and taking whatever temporary work they can to get money. Thanks for stopping by and best of luck to you! I hope you find something soon.
My own experience - self and clients - is that if the application and interview process is extremely off-the-wall or obfuscated, the company and/or staff are involved in illegal activity or very abusive.
PG - you have much more patience than I, to go to the end of all these processes each time.
Maybe,we should send a link to this hubpage to our congressmen,with a message about our complaints.
I'm sure we would get a form letter,with their thanks for bringing it to their attention.
goes something like this at the end;
Thank you for, your interest
The problem is we want them to take more of an interest in the problem!
I have an interesting question !
If,you worked for the government and it is part of your job to help other people get a job ,and their were no private employers hiring,the only way you can get a job outside selfemployment,is to work for the government. So maybe I should run for office ,like my congressman,at least I know he's going to get a government pension guarenteed by the full faith and credit of the people of the unitedstates ,right! Do they have to answer the same questions we do? Not in this life!
Hi Patti--That makes sense, that an off-the-wall application process signals an abusive employer. In my much more limited experience as an employee only, I find that to be true, but I've also found that at least in the part of the country where I live, the only jobs that seem to come up are with huge corporate entities that do have this sort of application process. I took the insurance job because I had to have a job, and of course, like almost everyone else I worked with, I hoped to be there only briefly and move on at the first chance, but when I did move on it was over five years later to a worse job just like it. And I was by no means alone--I worked with people with masters degrees in counseling, a former radio DJ, and major community political organizer--people who had had good, decent careers and were now reduced to call center work for low pay because that was all they could find.
I don't think there is much out there right now EXCEPT abusive situations. Not that people shouldn't try, but I felt like I should share my experience because I don't really think what I've gone through is unusual. I think I was patient because I had to be--but I ran out of patience. Thank you so much for reading this and commenting. I really appreciate it.
someonewhoknows--I'd like to see the Employee Free Choice Act passed. I don't think it will 'solve' everything, in fact, I think it will cause no small amount of strife. But it will bring these issues to the forefront instead of allowing this kind of thing to go unchallenged.
At both call centers where I worked I am convinced any attempt to organize a union would have provoked, if not violence, then violent confrontation. Some people were so terrified of losing the job they regularly 'exploded' at anyone who voiced a concern and wasn't 'loyal', whereas others were so bitter they were ready to stand on their cubicle desks holding up signs like Norma Rae. That's a very unhealthy environment. We had regular confrontations between workers for instance over working off the clock--a practice that was common at both call centers where I worked in order to keep 'stats' at the level required for raises, but which is illegal. But instead of taking it to the company as a legitimate labor issue, (you don't give us adequate time for paperwork and thereby force off the clock work at an hourly job--we need paperwork time), employees would attack each other and rat on each other.
My partner Bill has a 'good' job--25 years now--and he has this year taken a pay cut, a vacation cut, a cut in his 401k matching, and now they are adding other invasive practices to their arsenal on a daily basis.
I think working people deserve some respect. Money is tight. But you don't have to treat workers like crap. Thanks for your thoughts.
I have been self employed for so long I luckily have not had to deal with any invasive questions by potential employers. I do know that many employers read stories about doing background checks and how important they are and think that this truly means everyone. But there are some jobs that just do not need to go to that extreme.
Wow. I did call center sales my second summer in college and vowed never to do it again. It was a dishonest operation and somewhat abusive. Now it must be extremely more abusive. It may be utterly abusive now. A formerly close friend employed in call center collection occasionally passes out at her work station from the stress. She can no longer participate in a conversation unless she uses a memorized script, which gets old. I think she is going to die and she is only in her mid-30s.
Great piece. I have a question to ask you - why did corporate world change and not want good employees to stay? it is has always bothered me that they want so much turn over in positions.
Patty, what you just wrote is soooo disturbing. When a job is physically and mentally affecting your ability to function that much, it is time to look elsewhere. Is it really worth it to that poor person in her 30's?. I hope she gets out before it takes her out. MM
Hi Hubbers. :)
Patty, that is so disturbing. I hope she does get out. What is so very frustrating to me is the lack of any other jobs, at least around here. I really don't see myself getting another job. I wouldn't mind having a job if I could find a real job, but I don't consider that a real job--call centers, as you point out, have gotten very abusive, but it isn't just that--I mean the work itself is deceptive and invalid. It serves no useful purpose--it just helps enrich people who don't deserve it and mildly abuses the customers who call for 'help', so how can a worker ever feel good about it? To me, that's the worst thing, that it's a fake job. An abusive fake job that shouldn't even exist. I have lots of skills, lots of education and a lifetime of work under my belt but in terms of getting a good job, it's like, who cares? There's the hairnets, there's the adult diapers, prove we should let YOU wear either one! Very depressing!
RGraf, I think this got started after Reagan when corporations started to go through this mergers and acquistions frenzy that made them HUGE and then eliminated middle management so that we have now, basically, a two tier system of the obscenely over-paid and the badly underpaid. Encouraging turnover at the lower level keeps wages low and keeps pensions and other kinds of benefit payouts low. It's a profit thing IMO.
MM--I don't know if I am employee material anymore. I'm pretty sure I'm not. Maybe that's a good thing though.
Ah, that makes sense now. Though I'm younger, I'm more old-school. If they do a good job and they want to stay, leave well enough alone. Thanks.
Me too! I feel like, if I'm doing well, why do I need to leave? But at both call centers I worked at, it was 'up or out' as a policy, meaning, we give you 'x' amount of time and after that, if you aren't promoted we'd like you to leave. At the insurance company that time was two years. At the bank it was six months.
Hi Pam
Corporations are grim, aren't they? Glad to hear it's not just the UK that has vast companies riddled with inane policies and stab-your-colleagues-in-the-back politics. I never aspire to working in a large set-up again. At the moment I work partly for myself (hypnotherapy) and partly for a tiny, sole trading Estate Agency (Real Estate). My interview for the Estate Agency lasted less than ten minutes, and I was told I had the job there and then. Apart from providing a CV and two references there was no form filling or psychometric testing. It was a breeze, and exactly how things should be. If only some of my previous job applications could have been as pleasant!
Glad you're still enjoying your freelancing and I hope it continues to be challenging and rewarding.
Hello Amana,
I see you are into hypnotherapy.Does that mean you help people to mentaly deal with unemployment frustration?
I hope you don't use hypnosis in selling realestate ! lol
Although I wouldn't mind trying it out on a HR manager!
Hi Amanda,
Yes, the corporate model has really turned quite insane! I'm so glad you found a position at a small, human place. If I ever have that opportunity, I will certainly take it. I think my ideal situation would be a halftime job like that and then freelancing to pick up the slack. So far so good. Thanks!
pg and MM - My friend entered a ministerial training program part-time and hopes to become a minnster wihtin 2 years now. I have not been able to reach her for a year now, however; so my best thoughts and prayers go out for her.
pg - I'm checking for real job listings in Michigan. It's very interesting and sometimes odd.
Hi Patty--I'm glad your friend had another plan. Let's hope she's doing better.
Yes, jobs in Michigan--that IS an odd and interesting topic. Even the governor admits the state will probably shrink population-wise due to the job situation, but I do live in the western part instead of the Detroit area, so it is better here than in the rest of Michigan.
It's been said that persistance is the key to finding a job.That can be a two way street.Employers can be just as persistant when it comes to finding reasons not to hire you! Even when it is illegal to do so. Age.sex,race can and are still being used as reasons to eliminate prospective job cadidates. Not out in the open,but covertly,as long as they can get away with it.They don't ask you outright on an application how old you are but they do ask when you were born.There are ways to get around the letter of the law,without breaking it,outright!
Yep, that question asked in the personality test is real. I have seen it many times. lol... another excellent article Pam! Dont even get me started on my old fast food job... and their so called application process... it went something like this... no real ID we hire you anyway- put you in kitchen..... Yet if you walked in and spoke english you got the third degree. lol. Fun times.
Hi y'all ( see been here 3 mths, an already got some talents) hehe
PGrundy Im awfully grateful to you for writing and nurturing a fantastic hub.
Someonewhoknows ..what a witty and sharp mind you have...a letter sounds terrific
just wanted to say thoroughly enjoying reading all the comments! and learning new facts along the way.
SC Governor still refusing to take bail out money as he sits on his John Deere tractor taking care of his land. Commendable values maybe to no want to incur debt ,but it sure as hell aint helping the unemployment numbers.
someonewhoknows--Yes, I am definitely in the category of unemployed persons who have 'given up' and it's because of my age. At 56, the chances of me getting a good job in MICHIGAN are about as good as the chances of me winning the lottery. No one comes out and says, "Damn, you're old." But it really is an issue, and the thing is, it's harder for older workers to put up with a lot fo the things younger people do. I'm not saying I'm too good to work. I excelled at both of my call center jobs (until the last three months or so at the bank, when my attitude went straight to hell), and I worked really hard, but when you've been around a few decades and you see you're getting fed daily BS rations, it's harder to swallow. So I think on that score, corporations do have reason to avoid older workers, and they do avoid them.
mellas views--Oh yes, been there--the 'play dumb to get the fry job' routine. Some jobs you actually have a better chance if you interview poorly, as you so correctly point out.Thanks for coming by and commenting. I love your hubs too!
eaglekiwi--I don't understand these governors who are doing that! I think they're crazy. We need some kind of safety net with this kind of unemployment. I hope they get voted out. That's just nuts. :)
Yes, the age descrimination is horrid. One contruction company here reduces wages by 3% of gross earnings yearly beginning at the worker's 50th birthday. And cost of living rises each year.
Do you not have age discrimination laws in the US? What Patty describes would be flat-out illegal here.
Applying for pupillage wasn't quite as bad as all of the above, fortunately. Because Chambers consist of a group of self-employed barristers, they don't waste time.
I'm on the pupillage committee my Chambers now, and our question form is along the lines of :
Name:
Address etc:
GCSE, A level, degree marks (incl breakdowns of the optional law courses taken and marks acheived)
Bar School marks
Legal-related stuff such as debating, mooting, youth parliament
Previous jobs
extra-curricular activities
proof they are a member of one of the Inns of Court
Proof they are entitled to live and work in the UK.
And that's it.
It's really bad out there. I have never before had the experience of being hired on the spot only to be told the next day they overbooked and would keep my information on file. If that isn't unprofessional I don't know what is. That company is still running ads in the paper. Charity callers, fund raising, hah! Maybe they're gathering personal information for other reasons unknown to the applicant.
Thanks, Pgrundy, for what someone else already referred to as a "pitch perfect" hub, and thanks to all those who have left many excellent comments and shared their own relevant experiences. For years now it had been in the back of my mind to write something like this. I'm glad you beat me to the punch so excellently! For me your hub rang especially true on the inane interview questions that one must NOT answer honestly (especially hard for someone who thinks like a "writer", no?) and the expectations of smiling compliance. I did work at a call center job once, for several months, and I came more and more to notice that the director of the call center ALWAYS smiled, and more and more to notice that I did not feel that to be a good thing. I have been around people before who smiled most or all of the time, and felt that in many cases it was either a good thing, benign, or indifferent, but in the case of this director I felt it was more of a tool of manipulation, and unspoken threat. Of course, maybe I'm just paranoid-- on the other hand, I was wondering if anyone else has ever had a similar experience yielding similar impressions? As for the inane questions, they do make me smile occasionally, because they tend to make me think of a moment in Silence of the Lambs when Special Agent Clarice Starling suggests to Hannibal Lector that he take a sort of diagnostic test (not Clarice's idea, but rather that of the prison's resident pschologist). Lector gives one of his disturbing chuckles and says something to the effect "do you think you could dissect MY intellect with a blunt tool like that?" And while we might all want to distance ourselves from many other views which Dr. Lector held, I think many of us could feel welling up within us a sympathetic chuckle, which I don't think would be disturbing. Or perhaps there are some that would find our chuckles disturbing. Well, that's ok: the reasons I had for distancing myself from many of Lector's views have nothing to do with whether or not a soulless corporate temple of profit considers me fit to discharge the duties of a meaningless underpaid job. Rather, it's because my parents, relatives, teachers, and even quite a few friends and peers instilled in me a reverence for life and respect for others' dignities and happiness. Meanwhile, although it will probably cause them no lost sleep, I will say it of many of those at the top of the profit-mongering pyramids: you have failed MY profiling test, and I most certainly would not hire you... no, not even if you were the last candidate on earth...
(word, peace out)
Hi Pam,
Just in response to Someonewhoknows question to me from earlier in the comments. Of course we can influence Human Resources people, just as we can influence anybody. Take a look at my 'Are you an original thinker?' hub, and check out Derren Brown on Youtube. We are sending out signals to people constantly, and many of them are so subtle that we don't realise that we're doing it.
Have you ever chosen a new home within a few seconds of walking through the door? I know I have, and job interviews are similar. You need to make sure that the interviewers connect with you instantly. The successful candidate is more likely to be the friendly, happy guy with the warm handshake and winning smile than it is to be the over-qualified, nervous guy who is awkward and gives single word answers. I'm sure you're more like the first guy than the second, but you get my drift. It's really tough to get jobs in some areas, and the pressure is on for employers as well as employees. They need to get it right too, and that's a big responsibility if you're taking on someone who might be with your company for many years to come.
Hi LG--We do have age discrimination laws here, but they're very hard to enforce, and during the Bush adminstration the chances of winning such a suit were pretty minimal. It's been a bad 25 years for labor in the is country, and right now I think what is happening is that, with the the Employee Free Choice Act before Congress, a lot of employers are cramming in a lot of horrible policies so that, if their employees organize, they will focus on that instead of anything real like money or benefits. That's just my thinking on it, but in general, employees have little leverage when times are hard and the courts are not friendly to workers.
kstyle--I had that happen at the insurance company I worked for. I was hired into the claims department, only to be called days before I was meant to start and told that they had 'overhired' but they would keep my name on file. Four months later they called me about an agent position, which was actually a bit better paid, and I did get that one.
watcherbynight--I think the requirement that you smile all the time is one of the most irritating and insane, and I've definitely witnessed higher ups in call centers who have taken it to a pathological and almost sadistic level. More common though are the people who have gotten so good at corporate-speak and relentless positivity that they no longer seem quite human. It's like they have become some other species. I had an idea for a sci fi book about it--people who manage this then volunteer to have computer circuitry installed in their bodies for greater efficiency, and an completely different human/machine species evolves from this. Trouble ensues. And so and so forth. :)
Amanda--I've written articles for hypnotist's websites through elance, and it's so fascinating. Here, I don't think you even need a license to practice. I think pretty much anybody can set themselves up and do it, which shocked me, considering how much trust and control a person hands over to a hypnotist. Lots of good material for fiction in there too!
AMEN! Thank you very, very much. I have felt this same way for quite some time. I never voiced it beyond my immediate family. I, too, have an Associates Degree - have secondary schooling - over 20 years of experience and I work for $10.43 an hour - been at my place of employment for 2 years and I am coming up on another evaluation soon to only get, if I am lucky, a 50 cent raise. I know a person that has worked for 32 years at this place and is only making 2 dollars more than I am right now.
Is it worth it?
Hi wittywriter--Thank you for sharing your story. The most money I've ever made in my life was in the insurance call center. When I left I was at $18.87 an hour, but it was literally making me ill. Except for that job, I've ALWAYS made between $7 and $10 an hour no matter what I try to do--and that's with a BA in psychology and a master's in liberal arts (ok, not job training that second one, but hey--it was fun). I have excellent computer skills and a good work history and I've done a lot of things, but pay? Ack.
So for me at this age, no it isn't worth it. It just isn't. I can easily pick up a couple hundred dollars a week writing, sometimes more, sometimes less, so that's what I'm doing. Always looking for ways to bump that up, but I doubt I'll ever get a 'job' job again. Besides, I really like being at home. My dog likes it too, and my partner--they've got him working 60-70 hour weeks since the economy tanked. That's what a lot of places are doing--paring down to a skeleton crew and then working the remaining employees to death.
Good luck!
Is it mere coincidence that corporations started treating people as less than human at about the same time they stopped referring to them as "employees" and started calling them "human resources"? It's no accident that sociopaths make the best business managers and executives.
Congratulations, America: we now work more hours than the Japanese!
Krysalis - Lovely to find someone else saying what I've been harping on for years: Turning us into "human resources" turned us into non-humans. And we're also in agreement that sociopaths easily find their way to the top - or as Paul Newman once said in a movie, "Only cream and bastards rise."
The scariest people I've met have been in the business of managing "human resources." In decades past, the term "Personnel" at least gave us personhood. Now we are things to be manipulated at will, with less care for our welfare than a pallet of cardboard boxes.
Hi Chrysalis & Mindfield--I did notice that. When Orwell wrote 1984 he was thinking of the totalitarian political state, not the corporate world, but some have made the argument that corporations now rival countries as the dominant political forces in the world. People choose up their brand loyalties in a that resembles nationalism (are you a Coke or Pepsi person? Ford or Chevy? VISA or Mastercard?), and you've definitely got the doublespeak thing going on in these places. Apparently Citi and BOA are undercapitalized per the Treasury's 'stress tests' and so the relase of the information has been pushed back to Thursday May 7. It will be interesting to see how that is handled, if it's handled. Thanks for your comments.
LondonGirl - Unfortuntely, the company has documented false "reduced productivity" for each year of these older workers. However, they have been reported for hiring undocumented aliens, is under investigation, have lost much bsuiness, and may dissolve.
As it turns out, unless their is a MultiMillion $$$$ lawsuit with a win assured, the age-descrimination cases fall by the wayside in many US States. At the same time, there is a so-far unsucessful radical movement to make illegal the provision of any healthcare to those over 75, while the retirement age rises to 75. It stands at 67 for full Soc Sec retirement benefits currently, which I have confirmed with my attorneys. For the few millions aged 50-62 that cannot be hired and forced to freelance or open a business if they can, the future is difficult.
Some of the odd preference -type questions & answers indicate to some employers the political party leanings of the job candidate, no matter how ludicrous that sounds -- improperly trained HRand interview people are a hazard, you see.
What may be more disturbing> I know of a company that matches the Coke/Pepsi choice to which they have contracted to use in their company cafeteria in their chain of restaurants. You were not permitted to bring in restaurant food to the cafeteria unless it was form one of their own restaurants. How many others do these thigns, I'm wondering. I want to find out how other companies use the answer to the question. What's the difference between the two drinks besides advertising and perhaps one ingredient? - Does the choice indicate to HR how susceptible one is to advetising and not thinking for oneself? Do Dems like one and GOP like the other - haha (I've never looked that up).
Hi Patty--When I worked at corporate HQ for the bank I felt like they did indeed have an overly aggressive relationship with the food vendor that supplied the break rooms and the cafeteria. I also felt like both call centers had unhealthy relationships with food vendors in general, and used very unhealthy food to reward their call center employees, all the while having these "lose weight' corporate sponsored food campaigns. I mean which is it? Eat pizza and doughnuts when you do a good job or lose weight? One guy middleaged guy I worked with was regularly rewarded with Hershey bars for good performance even though he was diabetic.
I can't see what older workers are supposed to do--die, so as not to inconvenience anyone? Bill just got a notice about his pension (he's 58) saying as of April it will not accrue at the rate promised when he hired on, because of 'economic conditions.' Most guys no longer get a pension--he was one of the last hired before they dumped them altogether. If you can't work, and you can't count on retiring, what's left? Soylent green? It's nuts.
You are right pg; unfairness to the largest proportion of the US population - the BabyBoomers, especially the first half of them - is often atrocious. What are these folks who will likely live into their 80s - 100 to do? I suppose, write a lot on the Intenet and earn a meager living until and unless they gain enough momentum to live instead of subsist. Some actually do pretty well with HubPages to supplement their incomes, and a few other sites.
Organizing a strong coalition as a lobby or in protest helps; I don't know how successful AARP has been - not enough I'm sure. In the 1920s, a group of senior citizens staged a protest against Boston Hospital to successfully lower fees charged them.
The Boomers and part of the generation before protested Vet Nam - perhaps it's time for similar voices.
PGrundy...Great Hub. Okay so after I peed myself reading certain parts of your hub and then had a chance to catch my breath from laughing so incredibly hard(at your humourous angle of a truly hideous, deplorable global situation) I re-read the entire hub a second time.
So if you ever decide to do stand-up, I think you could have a job, for sure, in that field;-)
I couldn't agree with you more about the rediculously outragious q's that are asked. I mean come on...I know that it is post-911 and all that but employers are taking things to the umth degree.
...and they know that they've got everyone by the perverbial "sack", too, because there are not enough "lousy" jobs for the amount of people looking for them.
Whatever happened to "A fair days wage, for a fair days work?"
These employers need to "GET OFF THE DRUGS"! Inflation has been in full swing for many a decade and they are still only offereing less than $6.00/hr in most parts of the country. Did it ever occur to these yahoos that if they offered decent wage along with a decent working schedule and environment, that perhaps they might have quality employees and wouldn't need to put people through this ridiculos s@#t?
I won't belabor what I do for a living, but part of my job is to do the schedule. The people I work with care more about their schedule and having a life, outside of work, that they very rarely ever complain about their hourly wage.
...again, Great hub!
Adrianna
Thanks Adrianna! I'm so glad this gave you a laugh. Let's hope things get better fast. I'm with you, some of this has gotten ridiculous. Thank you for your comments. :)
"As it turns out, unless their is a MultiMillion $$$$ lawsuit with a win assured, the age-descrimination cases fall by the wayside in many US States."
We have in England & Wales a separate venue for employment cases - the Employment Tribunal. So it doesn't go through the normal courts. My other half does mostly employment law, and he does, in particular, a lot of discrimination cases (race, sex, aged, disability)
Hi LG--We need better (or any) employer accountability here. I don't see it on the horizon for now. As long as unemployment keeps rising, employers can be as nuts as the want to be. If the Employee Free Choice Act passes, making it easier to organize labor unions at these workplaces, it won't get instantly better, but it might bring some issues more to the forefront. Still, there's so much opposition to it on the right, I don't look for it to pass. These are not great times to be looking for work.
Pgrundy, I guess I am so lucky that I have never had job interviews where they have asked really dumb questions. As I teach in international schools, questions asked have always been too the point and they have always given me the opportunity to ask questions at the end. probably, because if I get the job, I'll be moving countries. Thank God I haven't been asked anything stupid.
Hi cindyvine--I think the better the job, the more normal the application process. These crazy endless intake procedures seem to come with the crappiest of the the crappy jobs. It sounds like you've been abloe to apply for and get real jobs, not dumb ones, which is fabulous. Good on you!
I think you're right, the crappy jobs generally have incompetents doing the interview process who have received limited training in conducting an interview
How true, cindyvine. I once had to interview myself (yep, it's true) because the poor guy was so scared and unprepared he didn't have a clue what to do. I purposely took myself out of the running for the job at the end - but it was an interesting experience!
Sitting here reading responses and its made me relise that more people feel the way I felt after all ,and thats just on Hubpages ,imagine the stats off this site ,then Globally.
Geeze that revelation was gloomy , I need caffeine ,then look out Mr Employer( these days its likely to be Ms Ice-Queen ) lol. Might as well paste this link along with my application to Hooters.
Pam, I love how you make me laugh when your writing about man's inhumanity to man. I guess it works for certain groups, the people in power to have a desparate work force willing to do anything for a louzy $8.00 an hour job. I still can't get over the pee in the cup business. That is so invasive!
I thought it was bad when, at the tender age of 17, they strapped me up to a lie detector when I applied for a job as an ice cream scooper. I thought they were going to ask me if I liked ice cream.
OMG Delores, a lie detector test for scooping ice cream! That's crazy. Now that you mention it though, I do remember my best friend from high school telling me that when she went away to college she got this job managing a convenience store and had to submit to a lie detector test every six months. She said they always asked her if she ever stole from the store and she always said yes, she stole her groceries for home, and even though she always admitted this during the lie detector test, she always passed the test so they never fired her. I'd forgotten that until you mentioned your ice cream job. Thanks for your comment!
Do not work for anyone else, all of your money will go to taxes. Find a way to work on the internet. Taxes Suck. PS: I am not a conservative terrorist.
Hi marinealways! I'm glad you are not a conservative terrorist! I'm not either, and I agree with you, I'm tired of taxes too. Why not just go to Citibank and give them all my money for nothing every April 15th? It's insane. I've been working for myself, so far so good. :)
Glad to hear you are succeeding. I'm getting there. I will be happy when i'm there so I do not have to pay other peoples bills. I am pretty sure they will be taxing the internet pretty soon. I give them within a year.
HI PGrundy, I wanted to laugh at your sarcasm, but reality of what you wrote almost brings a tear to my eyes. It is so sad when people have to sell their souls and be brought down to the lowest form (peeing in a cup) to earn minimum wages to provide for themselves and family. I sincerely thank you for the humor that you have put in this article so people can walk away smiling about your sarcasm, which is not off target. I have had the great fortune of not having to deal with very many of these demeaning interviews and questionnaires, but my heart sure goes out to those who have.
When you and mindfield start up your movement, just let me know where to sign up. :-)
marinealways--good luck! I hope it all goes better and better for you.
Whikat--yes I'm looking forward to that movement. I'll be signing up myself. :)
Thank You. BTW, Maybe one reason employers give you so many tests is because of rising health care costs. They do not want "high risks" employees. Just a thought. Taxes Suck. PS: I'm not a conservative terrorist.
Lots of comment so not sure if anyone mentioned this, but the fact that employers are asking, increasingly, to check a prospective employee's credit is troublesome. I mean -- you have debt, you need a job to pay it... and maybe your credit is wrecked. It's all related. And you might not get the gig you need to pay your bills because the assumption is made that you're not trustworthy, responsible, a safe bet because you have weak credit?
I have trouble with this... financial responsibility doesn't always eqaute to whether or not you'll do the job and not steal from your employer.
Hi composed--I agree, it's kind of a Catch-22 requirement. It insures that people who owe money will have a much harder time finding work. That's crazy.
I needed 2 rererals with phone numbers just for a part-time kitchen job. which i didn"t apply for in the end
Its sad to see it when overqualifed people have to take worse jobs but it happens.
Blood sample? Orly? I would think not... maybe employers are taking money on the side profiling applicants on behalf of the government. This concludes today's conspiracy theory.
Hi Hope. The blood sample was hyperbole. The pee test, totally standard. :)
I know this is a little off topic,but since the previous comment ,by Hope ,I thought it might be appropriate!
Lewis Lapham editor of Harper’s magazine, and one of America’s great liberal thinkers, contends that the United States has two governments -- the "permanent" and the "provisional". "On Politics, Culture And The Media", keynote address to the Canadian Institute of International Affairs National Foreign Policy conference, in October 1996 -- and I quote Lewis Lapham, "The ‘permanent government’ is the secular oligarchy that comprises the Fortune 500, the big media and entertainment syndicates, the civil and military services, the large research universities and law firms."
Then he puts his thesis in historical context. "Just as the Catholic Church was the predominant institution in medieval Europe, and the Roman Legion the most efficient manifestation of organized force in the first and second centuries BC, so also the Transnational Corporation arranges the affairs of the late twentieth and, I might add, early twenty-first century. The American congress and the American president serve at the pleasure of their commercial overlords, all of whom hold firmly to the belief that all government regulation is wicked -- that is, the work of the devil; and that any impulse that runs counter to this manly interest of business is, by definition, soft, effeminate, and liberal." In other words, the interests of ordinary citizens takes second place to those of the industrial and military elite.
Thanks for that quote, someonewho knows.
I think that has been the situation for quite some time in the U.S. and now the world. Some have argued for decades that nationalism is defunct, or becoming so--that corporations define the global economy and global politics much more powerfully than nations do.
Also, although I was exaggerating to make a point about the blood sample, it's not that far away or that 'out there'. Already we are seeing a vigorous debate about computerizing medical records. It's not that it won't save money--it will. It's that, once those records are computerized on a national level, how long until corporations can access them and deny or terminate employment based on what is in them? What about genetic testing? When that becomes common, and it already IS becoming common, how long until you can be denied employment for a disease you MIGHT get?
These aren't sci fi scenarios, they're right here. They're being debated right now. In Mexico City, employees of the court house were recently 'chipped' like dogs to save on ID bracelets. That actually happened, and it was over a year ago.
Strange how everything is connected in one way or another!
It all reminds me of the jews being marked with numbered tattoos in those concentration camps,IBM was instumental ,using their computer's and punchcards to keep track of those prisoners.
I hate to bring this subject up,it's not a pretty picture,but look at what happens when good people do nothing! Before you know it things like that happen.
Your sharp wit and humor should make it easier to deal with what is a pretty scary and difficult situation. Right now I'm on disabiltiy, going back to school because I don't have the degrees, I wish I had completed back when I was young. I've only started with this writing gig and I think I have a long way to go to just bid on a 1 dollar job on Elance, but it sure does help to laugh. Alot of your hubs do that, so thanks. You should be a high paid columnist.
Pgrundy. this was fun to read. I am lucky in that I've never been subjected to "the application from hell" but it was good reading, and I've heard other horror stories.
I agree employers are ridiculous requiring resumes etc for these low paying jobs, what happened to the old concept first in first engaged. Just a day's trial would solve it all and if someone is motivated to get there first that's good enough for me.
As ridiculous too is insisting they interview every applicant, just a complete waste of time from both sides. Where are these people's brains or have they none.
someonewhoknows--I know what you mean. Things are getting scary-weird, and people just keep changing the channel. I worry how it all will end. I write to Congresspersons--don't know how effective that is--and sign petitions and send money to activist groups when I have it, which lately isn't often.
Dcortez--good luck to you! Times are pretty scary for lots of folks right now. Elance can help, but at first it's really hard to break in. You kind of have to hold your nose and take underpaid projects, but later you can charge more. It's never all that glamorous, but it helps to put a few beans on the table. Hang in there.
Thanks Artisan Walker! So kind of you to say so. Glad you enjoyed it.
katyzz--Yes I'd say about 80% of the 'intake process' is unnecessary. I think they do it on purpose to week out 'noncompliant' people. They want people who will put up with anything, and an endless app process is a good way to find them.
Great Hub, Pam - you always manage to make me chuckle!
It is getting ridiculous - my personal hate is those stupid half-assed psychological tests that they give you. Might as well use your horoscope to determine your personality.
Mind you, it is good fun to mess the tests up and convince them that you are entirely mad.
Hi Sufi--I hate those tests too. Sadly, it's such a wasted effort on their part since I can usually convince them I'm totally mad all on my own! Who needs a test? lol!
America was once the land of starting over. If you'd made mistakes in the past, there was always the chance to redeem yourself. That's why, in part, so many people from other countries were keen on coming here. Fresh starts, baggage left behind on old docks.
Now we are tracked so closely that redeeming oneself is impossible. For $15 a prospective employer (or anyone else, for that matter), can have your entire work and financial history, and more, in their inbox in minutes.
Like Marley's ghost, we forever wear the chains we forged or, far too often, a dreadful previous job or situation forged for us.
Is it any wonder so many people today lead lives of noisy desperation? They're caught in a trap where every door is locked and posted with signs saying, "We've got your number" and "No escape" and "You'll never be anything more than your history."
That's a good point Mindfield. It's interesting to me, this emphasis on credit score. 50 years ago there was no such thing as a credit score, and unsecured credit was frowned upon. Now we are supposed to believe that how we 'handle credit' is a big part of who we are. It isn't. While there will always be spendthrifts, often people get in trouble with unsecured credit during a period of unemployment, illness, or other hardship, and once a person is past the point of being able to pay it off in a paycheck, it never goes away. Credit card companies aim for that sweet spot at which customers can only pay the minimum and barely touch the principal. It's much like a game, only the deck is stacked.
In the seven months my husband has been searching for a job, we've come to realize that the whole job search world has changed dramatically, and not for the better.
The worst was him being asked to write an essay? for a trucking job? and the 40 different ways to ask if you would ever consider stealing something.
Hi Jerilee--My partner Bill is also a truck driver. His barn shut down in December, and he's been driving 70 miles to and from another city to work since then, taking regular pay and benefit cuts and being subjected to all manner of nonsense. He's 58, I'm 56. We've really pulled in financially, but it's still scary. It's anybody's guess if he'll be able to work until he can draw his pension--four years.
These are scary times. We are lucky. At least one of us has a 'real' job. Even people that have jobs now are being treated more poorly. Hang in there.
Great hub. Esp. given the recession.
Hi Pam,
What a wonderfully disturbing hub.
I think it's not quite as bad here in australia, but then again, I haven't applied for a job for a long time.
I remember all this sort of interview stuff when I was in a Government job, and we did courses in Myers Briggs, etc.
I've sat on selection panels, and often the applicants who jumped through the hoops perfectly were the worst people that you could appoint to the job.
Another point that nobody has mentioned is that when people's financial situation becomes more and more desperate when they cannot get a job, they are increasingly turn to the internet.
Where they become victims of the "Make Money Online" hucksters who promise to turn their computers into ATM machines. All a person has to do is pay $29.95 (or 99.95, or $78 per month) to learn the "secrets" that will instantly spew rivers of $$$$ into their bank accounts.
Well, I'm telling you that there is no secret, there never was a secret, and there will never be a secret. THAT'S the secret. (my apologies to Gertrude Stein)
If you haven't read Robert Cialdini's excellent book "Influence, the psycholgy of persuasion", please buy, beg, or borrow a copy and read it ASAP.
It will make you aware of all the different ways that employers, marketers, advertisers, and many other people push your "buttons" to take advantage of you.
Cheers, Eric G.
Pgrundy,
Excellent Hub and advice as well. I spent 25 years as a software engineer and systems analyst, working at companies where my salary topped out at 80k/yr roughly $38/hr. Several layoffs later and after exhausting a fairly long severance package, I started working temp positions averaging $10/hr. Today, 5 years later, after being hired at one of the temp positions, I am earning slightly over $13/hr. Thankfully, I am also earning a small amount of extra cash working for myself, and hope to soon make that permanent.
You make an excellent point though. Today, a JOB really does not represent anything more than the phrase "Just Over Broke" and you need to have a backup plan.
Thanks kdunn!
Eric--Amen to that. One of my first jobs writing online was for this guy who owned all these MLM sites. I wrote hundreds of reviews of these hucksters for his site, and I had to make them all sound like they weren't crap. I've been able to get writing project I like more than that since first starting out, but it's clear to me that there's no 'magic bullet' to putting up a website and watching your account balance grow. Most of my money comes from writing web copy for people who own web sites, not from owning my own web sites, and now, the freelance sites are more clogged than ever with people willing to do that for a dollar an article or less. Pretty grim.
hglick--I never heard that before: Just Over Broke. That's a great and sadly accurate term. When I look at what I save in gas, clothes, lunch, snacks, gifts for all parties and showers and bosses day and what not, I'm better off at home. I actually have a lot to do here, I'm saving us money by attending to things we'd normally just pay for, growing vegetables, canning, making a bit of money writing. I hope people start refusing to submit to this crap, but I don't see that. Sadly, I think we are in for much tougher times than we are seeing now.
Wow, you're right. So many places are just over the top. They act as if you should have more responsibility to them than to your family. I won't deal with that crap again. If you don't respect yourself, no one else will. If you don't do right by yourself, how can you expect to have a good quality of life.
Awesome hub.
Thanks Guardian. Good luck to you. :)
This is the reason I won't work for any corporation anymore. I don't feel alone anymore, thanks. Right now I am doing painting and landscaping services for family and friends and going really good. I can dress however I like when going to work and don't have to worry about psychology tests or that kind of BS. I am also learning on how to make money on the Internet, hopefully making my first income on June, If God permits it so...
Someone who checks on my pee or my credit score does not deserve me. Think out of the box.
Peace
Edgar
Hi eggie, thanks for your thoughts. I feel the same way. I wasted too many years in corporate hell. I've also done landscaping but I'm getting too old for it. Here's a hub I wrote recently on that part of my life, if you're interested:
http://hubpages.com/hub/How-to-Make-Money-As-a-Lan
Thanks for reading this and commenting. All the best to you.
don't know much about interviews but it sound like you are an experienced person
My favorite memory of "interviews" was the following: Already had been working for the Muppets and they hired a "corporate big guy" to but the "creative" house in order. He not only asked me what I liked to to "after hours" but he actually asked me if "I worked well with women!!" At which point I said "what am I, chopped liver? Do you work well with women?" and walked out.
Worked in many a corporate house - Merrill, Bank of America - Merrill actually had brass plaques on every floor and buried in the marble lobby "Integrity, Respect for the Individual, Responsible Citizenship" I kid you not.
Great hub...love the sarcasm...I remember a comedien doing a spoof on job application forms, kinda made me want to copy him..."Name" Bla bla, "Age" older than dirt, "Sex" About once a week, but only if I like you, "Phone number" for a good time call..., etc. LOL I actually worked mucking out horse stalls for a few years...pay was ok, but the clients were the best! It was one of the best jobs I ever had. (Course it helps to love horses lol) I would rather do that than work for a corporation any day!
Thanks techie!
ddeb--That's cool though that you worked with the Muppets. Corporations are the Devil incarnate. I will never, ever work for one again. Thanks for stopping by.
Enelle Lamb--I think horse stalls are very soothing, seriously. I mean even horse poo--what is it really? Recycled grass. Give me a pile of horse poo over a cubicle and a headset anyday! Enjoyed your comments, thanks!
OMG That is an EXCELLENT piece. I'm bookmarking this. You know, with all of those computer viruses coming out, why can't there be at least one that would fry the Unicru software for GOOD? I think more than a few job applicants would appreciate that. For the record, I know almost nothing about programming, so I couldn't in my wildest dreams construct such a virus.
Hi Shelley Team--Thanks! What is 'Unicru'? I'm guessing it's some kind of HR software? Well, I can't fry it either, but eventually someone might do it out of sheer hunger. Would it be tasty with chips? Have a great weekend. :)
I was wondering the same thing lol ,and its sure does sound appetising,cant help thinking some desperate soul maybe has already tried this action. But along with many stupid employers is also their misuse of funding ,so no doubt new software is a regular purchase.
I also think its fantastic than many people can supplement their incomes but the millions that seriously can't ,do they now turn to welfare and blow out that budget.....scary business. Maybe our questions and answers could be sent to President Obama? or someone start a petition..
Hi Eaglekiwi--It really is upsetting, the unfairness of these financial bailouts. AIG paid out nearly half a billion dollars in bonuses to its executives last year, and this after sucking up a billions and billions in taxpayer money. We try to laugh, but really, it's sickening.
"AIG paid out nearly half a billion dollars in bonuses "
Theres some funny things about AIG that was played down by the media.
Obama put no limitations on the stimulus money "before" he provided it to AIG. This is after he said, "there will be limitations on all the stimulus money so it's spent "wisely".
It was also played down that Obama received "millions" from AIG in his political campaign for president.
I understood they all ( Canditates) received 'funds' from various sources and if its similar to other elections money floods in from offshore too,since they too have long term interests.
I agree that this demon called greed is seriously overweight and I dont envy Pres.Obama's job one lil bit. My opinion is hes going to be a hardworking President and not afraid to pull his sleeves up,and I cant wait til he feels less like the new kid on the block and kicks some butt..lol
I understood they all ( Canditates) received 'funds' . Ha, I like how you jumped around that. You didn't answer my second question.
Obama put no limitations on the stimulus money "before" he provided it to AIG. This is after he said, "there will be limitations on all the stimulus money so it's spent "wisely".
I appologize Pgrundy. I got lost and off subject and it's turning into a politics commentary. lol
Hi marine & eaglekiwi--that's ok, that happens all the time. Have a great weekend you guys.
Actually marine didnt mean to jump around anything , I dont even jog anymore lol, but sadly unemployment is political ,too damn political if ya ask me ( and I know you werent)....hehe
pgrundy now having a great time I can do, wish I had a dog to walk maybe I can kidnap one , hope your free time is relaxing too and the sun shines all day for you!
Thank You pgrundy, you have a good weekend as well. PS: I am not a right wing extremist terrorist.
That's a very scary scenario. I am not aware of the realities that face so many folks on a day to day basis. I just pray and wish that you get a job that you deserve. Actually recently my husband asked me whether I had a one on one with my boss about any pay raise I said I usually don't discuss those issues. And he told me women tend to "value" less of themselves and unless we realize our contribution (and ask for the appropriate share) nobody would give it to us. I like to stay away from office politics(regarding promotions, grapevine & all) and just do my job (which again isn't good as my husband tells me that office politics isn't always necessarily bad). I guess I have a lot to learn from folks like you and others who have so much experience.
You are so correct about stupid and intrusive questions being asked by employers. They're really taking advantage of the current situation. And why are they allowed to ask for your age? I thought that was against the law? But if you request someone's birth date, which is on many applications, well, then do the math, huh? And with identity theft, I don't think people should put their Social Security Numbers down unless they are a serious candidate for hire.
Great hub.
I had employers take the piss. One interviewer told me, in a face ot face, that the job was filled but they just wanted to see what I was like. That was after a flight to the Netherlands to get to the interview.
Answering personality test questions honestly is asking for trouble.
I LOVED this hub! It rings sooo true for me in my life! I, too, have a college degree and a lot of varying experience but I still find myself in that interview, grasping for some kind of answer to the question, "So, what made you want to apply here?", knowing that the answers "I am desperate," "I am willing to work way below my skill level and expertise," or "I don't know, maybe I should just leave," would not be good responses but that is what I am thinking. I once applied for a cashier position at a local dollar store, had to take the "test" which 1.) I had to show the manager how to get the computer working to take the test, and 2.) Almost every question related to stealing. Then I had to pee in a cup! I am not on any drugs and don't drink but I didn't receive a call back. I can't say that I wasn't relieved because I didn't want the asinine job but I still felt a little disappointed that I wasn't "dollar store" material. I am trying now to make my own money in different ways (I clean a few houses, sub. teach, etc.) because I don't think my psyche can take any more of these interviews. I think you should have to take a spelling test or IQ with whomever is giving the interview and if you beat them, maybe you get their job!
I was also at an interview for three hours and never got a call back. I have been asked my age, what I read in my spare time (I accidently told the truth that I was reading an Elizabeth Bathory biography), and have been met by one lawyer's wife to check me out. Needless to say I didn't land any of these jobs, but I am learning that even though the economy is bad, this crap has been going on with me ever since I graduated from college with an English degree so I think I will be the choosier one or just pitch a tent somewhere and fend for myself. That sounds better to me than working for the "man."
Peppermint Thrift ( luv that nic)
Really enjoyed your answer,it is ridiculous and stupid the whole process. Specially loved the part about a spelling test and if you score higher you get their job ...hahahaha....just love it!!! keep ya sense of humor. Actually got me thinking too of when my son an IT graduate after applying for endless jobs when asked by this deadbeat across the desk " Well just want kind of job are you looking for anyway" and he answered..."Yours actually" , boss overheard him , liked his spunk and hired him. ( Lucky kid) but Im getting to the point where my qualified self is not good enough so maybe you will like my smartass self better. Probably wont even know the difference.
If you apply for a job at Hollywood Video, Circle K, Best Buy and some other major retailers, they use Unicru. Unicru is HR software produced by a company called Kronos. They give you those despicable personality tests that you mentioned in your article. They have ratings of Green, Yellow, and Red. The employers only see colors when they are sifting through the unicru results. Many employers have settings so that only greens show up in their results and yellows and reds don't even get a second thought. The only way yellows get a shot is if the pool of greens is extremely shallow. So basically, because employers see colors and not actual scores question by question, people are being left out just because they fell within a certain color score. It's evil and I'm not supposed to promote here, so I can't say anymore but you get the picture.
Thanks Eaglekiwi (like your name too)! My mama always said, "A smartass is better than a dumbass any day!" I do have to wonder if that kind of moxy is taken better when men use it than women? I have found that my bosses who were men really did not get my sense of humor at all. Just sayin'. But it could also be that the male bosses I have typically worked for likened the "women are better seen and not heard" ideology.
Excellent and very telling hub Pam. After closing our business last year, filling out tons of applications and experiencing much of what you have described here, I have decided to rent out rooms,move into our studio in the back, and start another business and not feel the crunch to perform anymore. Been there and done that and I've had enough. I would rather live in a smaller place, be able to go out and garden at will, work at will and to heck with the corporate rat race.
Thanks for giving me the inspiration to follow that road.
I like this question. What value would you place on yourself? Then right after that they ask how much do you expect to earn? Especially on commission jobs. How are you supposed to know how much you expect to earn when you may not even know the commission structure.
Pam and everyone here:
I hope some of those small-brained (fat-headed?) HR corporate types are reading this. Perhaps it would get through to them that they are permanently pushing away an enormous group of highly intelligent, deeply creative, very skilled people.
But, no, silly me. As you and others point out, that's exactly the point. The dullards are far easier to handle, will never be a bother by sharing 'ideas' (heaven forefend!), and have too little self-respect to ask for a raise or expect humane treatment.
I remember one job where they instituted an Employee of the Year award. The person who was given it had been there for eons, never said 'boo' to anyone, drudged away in silence, and put in extra hours without pay whenever asked. For the corporate heads, it was a no-brainer. Drones are what they want and, soon, drones is all they'll have.
Looks real good for America's future, don't you think?
Time to join Rage Slaves. Actually, this column proves that most of us have already done so.
"I can't say that I wasn't relieved because I didn't want the asinine job but I still felt a little disappointed that I wasn't 'dollar store' material."
PEPPERMINT THRIFT, you've given me the best laugh of the week. And, boy, did I need it! Bless you!
Hi Mindfield,
Yes, I don't really think they care about losing talent. One of the most disturbing things about these jobs, for me, (not counting the abuse) is the carrot and stick thing. There's always this promise that if you stay at the grunt job a year then you will have all these opportunities to move up within the organization, but both of my last two corporate jobs had very little to offer once that year was up--it might have been coincidence, but I doubt it. I've watched wages AND opportunities fall over the past 10 years for corporate work. I could stand the grunt CSR cubicle gig for a year if I knew there was a way out, but in reality, very, very few people move up--most just are fired, laid off, or quit in disgust. You've got your top highly paid tier, your bottom grunts, and not much in the middle.
i'm glad you have found a way to get by. any tips for those of us still lost trying to desperately get by i've been unemployeedd for too long and my money is almost all gone i had a few of those nice sit down with the owner things but the guy acted like i was hierd infact he said " call me when you want to start and well set you up ASAP" i called no answer
i emailed several times.. this was BEFORE my TTM came to haunt me. no customer will want to buy from a guy as young as me with a patxh of missing hair.. no matter how good i look (or think i look) otherwise
Hi HexIs,
No I don't have any good tips. I wish I did. I don't know if there's anything you can do on your own--that's one route, self-employment. Another is to check with your state employment division and see if you can get any retraining money--you know, see if they'll send you to school for something. My brother in law got that set up for himself, but just as he got all the paperwork (it took forever!) the state ran out of money (Michigan) so now it's hurry up and wait again. I think it's just really bad out there right now. Both of the last two corporations I worked for are now bankrupt. Geez we all need a break. Good luck.
I'd read this hub before and didn't leave a comment however something I read online yesterday,leaves me with no choice today:
"On the city's Web site, a waiver statement for background and reference checks asks job applicants to release information about personal, professional and social networking Web sites, including log-in information and passwords."
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/JobClub/story
Mindless Brute, that is incredible. I'm speechless.
You are AWESOME! :)
When we moved to Oklahoma from Alaska I saw a job opening for a Dual Diagnosis Counselor,which is what I had done back home The job in Oklahoma only paid $9.00 an hour which would have been a pay cut for me. My application was accepted and the interview went quite well. A week went by with no phone call not even to tell me that I hadn't gotten the job. I drove down to the clinic and asked to see my interviewer. When I asked her if they'd decided on a candidate she said no and that they were looking for someone with a Phd.
Wow. The sad thing is, they'll probably GET someone with a PhD. I live in MI and there's nothing here, I mean NOTHING. I like working for myself writing but I can't afford benefits, so that's a problem.
3cardmonte says:
7 months ago
excellent advice, no one was seriously asked the stealng question were they?