Is abortion ever justified, can we agree on circumstances where it is?
83Seeking consensus
Abortion is a subject that seems to arouse great passion and feeling, on all sides of the debate. And the debate often gets very aggressive, with people on both sides so convinced that they are right, positions move further apart and any real understanding is further than ever away.
In terms of seeking common ground, I want to consider times where I think everyone would agree that abortion is justified, and I'd be interested to know what other people think.
This is not an article about abortion on demand, unwanted but healthy pregnancies, or late abortion. It is, instead, about those pregnancies which go horribly wrong.
I have a lovely 3 year old son. 6 years ago, when I was 25, I had an abortion. And although it is a decision that caused me a great deal of emotional pain, it was the right decision.
I was not in the fortunate position of being a healthy mother with a healthy baby growing properly. Instead, I was healthy, but the baby was not growing in the uterus, an ectopic pregnancy.
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Ectopic pregnancy
I found out I was pregnant immediately I missed my period. I spent the next few weeks visiting the GP, signing on with the midwife, taking the folic acid, throwing up, all the usual pleasures of early pregnancy.
Then, about 3-4 weeks later, I began to feel ill. I felt unwell, and had agonising pains in my stomach.
I had emergency early scans, and the horrible news that my pregnancy was an ectopic pregnancy (where the baby, instead of implanting in the uterus, implants instead in the cervix, ovaries, abdomen or, most usually, the fallopian tubes).
Ectopic pregnancies are dangerous for the mother, and almost invariably fatal pre-viability for the child. There are a handful of examples, worldwide, of pregnancies in the abdomen or tubes resulting in a live birth, but it is extraordinarily unlikely.
The most likely outcome is a seriously injured or even dead mother, not a living baby.
The fallopian tubes lead from the ovaries, where eggs are stored
and ripened, to the uterus. In a normal pregnancy, the egg moves down
the tube and implants in the uterus, and there the cells divide, and
the baby and placenta form and grow.That is what is supposed to happen, and what does happen in a normal, healthy pregnancy.
The uterus is designed to stretch and accommodate the large volume of baby, placenta, and amniotic fluid.
In a few pregnancies, the fertilised egg does not succeed in implanting in the uterus. Instead, it attaches itself to the inside of the fallopian tube, the cervix, or occasionally outside the reproductive system altogether.
Unlike the uterus, these parts of a woman's body are not designed
to expand, or to nourish a baby. And, therefore, as the baby grows,
the tubes, or cervix, cannot cope.The baby can't get the nutrients it needs to grow, and the place where it is implanted cannot stretch to accommodate the growth, either.
Often, if not treated, they rupture, causing immense pain, and serious complications, including severe blood loss. Other ectopic pregnancies will end in spontaneous abortion, otherwise known as miscarriage.
Many ectopic pregnancies end in a miscarriage, but those which do not are almost all treated by way of a chemical or surgical abortion, depending on what stage the pregnancy has reached and any other medical factors.
Leaving it is not seen as a viable option by the medical profession, as there are no positive outcomes, and a great deal of associated difficulty, such as bleeding, rupture, and loss of the fallopian tube, or damage to the cervix.
It seems to me that ending an ectopic pregnancy should be seen as an ethically and morally correct decision by most people.
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Severely abnormal child
I'm not suggesting here for a moment that everyone would agree that a Down's Syndrome child, one missing a finger, or one which had a harelip is justification for an abortion. Many people think that such an abortion is entirely the wrong course of action.
In this category, I'm discussing a child which is not viable, such as one with severe hydrocephalus (water on the brain) or some other condition which means a child cannot live outside the mother's uterus.
In many cases, hydrocephalus can be treated. In some cases, however, when it develops in utero, it can be so severe that the brain cannot grow and the baby has no actual or potential mental function.
This is an example where, to my mind, most people would agree that abortion is acceptable. In the case of severe hydrocephalus, the delivery must be by classical Caesarean section (because of the size of the head), which presents elevated risks to the mother.
There are also birth defects such as anencephaly, whereby the baby's brain and skull do not grow. Most babies who reach delivery with this condition are still-born, and most of the rest die within hours or days at the most. There is no sensory perception, such as sight or hearing, no prospect of consciousness, and no treatment for these problems.
Many women would find it unbearable to go through an entire pregnancy, only to give birth to a child with no chance of life. Other women would choose to take that path.
It's a very difficult decision, but one I hope most people would agree can only be made by the mother, in consultation with her family if she so chooses.
- Facts on ectopic pregnancy
The facts, figures and explanations of and about ectopic pregnancy. - BBC - Religion & Ethics - Methods of abortion: Medical abortion
This article contains descriptions of the various methods used to carry out abortion. - fpa - working to improve the sexual health of all people throughout the UK
fpa (formerly the Family Planning Association) is a sexual health charity working to improve the sexual health of all people in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
Mother's health difficulties
This is a difficult one, and often a matter of degree. But there are medical conditions (such as cancer) which can't properly be treated when a woman is pregnant.
To my mind, an aggressive cancer which would be fatal if left untreated is justification for an abortion.
I do not think anyone can or should condemn a woman who chooses an abortion in such circumstances, nor should it ever be illegal.
Forcing a woman to bear a child when that pregnancy seriously damages her own health is not justifiable.
And there is not only the woman herself to consider, but her husband, children, parents, siblings and friends.
Abortion on demand
Many people strongly support this idea. Many others equally strongly oppose it.
But this article is not about such abortions or laws, but rather the circumstances where a healthy mother and healthy baby are not an option.
The debate about abortion can become antagonistic, aggressive, and therefore unproductive. I hope by focusing on common ground, a consensus might emerge as the basis for further discussion.
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Comments
I agree with your conditions above but I also very strongly believe that the ONLY person who has the right to decide whether to continue a pregnancy is the mother. Full stop, not the family, not the father, not the Church and certainly not the laws of the land. I don't expect it to be free but I do expect that as a functioning adult i have absolute choice over whether or not I have an abortion and everyone elses's opinion is irrelevant
Hello Lissie - thanks for your comment. Do you think abortion should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason, or would you have time limits?
Welcome to HubPages! You give some excellent examples of situations where abortion is the obvious choice for both mother and child - anyone who thinks differently must be extraordinarily blinkered or brainwashed. I also tend to agree with Lissie that it should be the mother's choice, and that any other discussions (such as why and when) are up to her.
PS - it's hydro, not hyrdo, encephaly.
Thanks Melissa - now corrected.
I DESAGREE with abortion because i think that every one knows what is right and what is wrong. If a woman have a baby to kill, why don't she prevent her self before having sex ? . Is better to prevent her self than kill an inocent child created by GOD !
Hello Isabela,
what do you think of the specific examples above, such as ectopic pregnancy, or an unviable child?
I will not comment on whether I believe abortion should be done or not in certain instances. I actually have no idea what I believe in those instances.
Your hub is well written and I like how you laid it out. It is simple to follow and understand.
I do want to ask if you have healed from the abortion you had to have before?
Yes, I have, I think. It's still a tough thing to think about. I was given the definite medical advice that to delay the termination would mean no child, and severe bleeding and possible complications for me.
Had I not had it, I doubt my darling son Isaac would be in my family today, so it was the right thing to do.
Yes, I can agree these are situations where an abortion could be acceptable to me. I would have probably made the same decision you did about an ectopic pregnancy.
Good Hub!
Though I do want to comment on an aspect of "life" that people tend to not know about, and that is the soul and its awareness and connection with the process of a growing body in the womb. There are many times when it can appear abortion is the only answer...but I wonder about the needs of the soul trying to be born in a body.
I realize that is a very general statement, but there is extensive connection between the body and the soul that is not common knowledge. And believing in reincarnation and karma, I ponder how it all works.
LG,
as mothers, you and I both know that pregnancy is not always the most fun experience even though the end result is a beautiful child. Some women suffer terrible health problems during pregnancy, and an ectopic pregnancy is obviously a good example of that. I truly believe in a woman's right to chose. No-one has the right to force a woman to go through a pregnancy in adverse circumstances. These days pregnancies can be detected so early, and chemical miscarriages in the very early stages are now available which reduce the need for some of the horrific procedures of the past.
Sparkling Jewel,
I also wonder about the soul and it's connection to the body in such circumstances. We can only trust that the Universe has a plan, and that a new opportunity will become available just as it would in a natural miscarriage.
Being a man, I cannot say what a women should or should not do in this situation. I guess what I'm saying is I believe in her right to choose. I've said it before, that God gave us free will. And you certainly bring up a good point about these very problematic circumstances.
I also think any pregnancy that comes about by a rape, should definitely be terminated. Very interesting hub!
"There are many times when it can appear abortion is the only answer...but I wonder about the needs of the soul trying to be born in a body."
I don't think any issues relating to human life have very simple answers. I include in that suicide, assisted suicide, and euthanasia, as well as a decision not to proceed with complicated and painful treatment. All these issues raise similar concerns.
"Some women suffer terrible health problems during pregnancy, and an ectopic pregnancy is obviously a good example of that."
Ectopic pregnancy isn't a barrel of laughs, certainly! And you are right, a perfectly healthy baby can still cause complicated symptoms in the mother during pregnancy.
"I also think any pregnancy that comes about by a rape, should definitely be terminated. Very interesting hub!"
Thank you - glad you found it worth reading. Do you think a woman should have to terminate a rape pregnancy, even if she doesn't want to do so?
Thank you for this Hub! I've never heard of ectopic pregnancies, and after learning about them, I can see why those can result in abortions. I have always said I would never have one, but after reading this, I can see how it can be so difficult!
I wouldn't have an abortion if I were healthy and pregnant with a healthy baby. I couldn't. But life isn't always that simple, sadly.
Glad you found it an interesting hub.
Ofcourse not. If a woman wants to keep her baby under any circumstances, like I said, it should be her choice. I guess I worded that wrong.
Thanks for the clarification - I agree with you.
Good hub, LG, and even with your understandable circumstances, I congratulate you for your courage in sharing your story publicly. I'm very surprised you haven't received any judgemental and negative comments. Abortion IS a very divisive subject, and your attempt to find common ground is much needed.
thanks for reading - I think it's better to seek common ground than emnity.
I do understand where it is medically necessary for an abortion to be performed. However, I do have a question. You made the comment that if during your previous pregnancy, both you and the baby would have been healthy, you would not have terminated. I had a son a little over 11 years ago. My pregnancy was completely healthy. Complications at birth caused a brain injury. Some feel he was a burden, as he would never be healthy or able to care for himself. If I had foreknowledge of such events, I would not have terminated my pregnancy. What would you have done?
I don't think I would have an abortion in such circumstances, where the baby was capable of living. That, for me, is different from circumstances where the baby will never be alive (such as ectopic pregnancy).
i dont believe in abortion BUT you have some great points. good hub
When you say you don't believe in it, would you support it in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, for example?
With latest technology, baby can be scaned to see whether it is a boy or a girl. What about in the old days? Can they choose to abort before hand?
Some will abandon their child when they are born if the child born with problem. Is this more cruel that abortion.
In the end, no abortion or not. Ones have to face the future decision
very few cases, maybe
fair enough. This article was trying to bring people together in the abortion debate, rather than start another disagreement about it.
I still believe the GIVER of life should decide.
Even if that leads to the death of both mother and child?
I remember commenting on this hub not long after it was published. To get right down to it, there is no justification for abortion. No matter how you spin it, it is not justified at all. (This is my opinion after seeing it back up on hubtivity page and thinking more about it.)
That being said, there are times when sacrifice must be made. Who is to decide who loses life and who gets to keep life? I cannot figure it out for myself, but after seeing what Jesus_saves_us_7 said, I agree. Only God who gives life should decide who loses life and who keeps it.
Now we have a whole other set of problems. Not many believe in God anymore. So in these cases, who decides? I actually thought I had a solution of sorts, but it seems I have even more questions.
I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty or point fingers at anyone. If what I wrote makes you feel guilty or hurts your feelings, I apologize. Sometimes it is hard to get across what you want to say without stepping on a few toes
You don't offend me at all, I'm glad you've come back after reflection.
LondonGirl says: Even if that leads to the death of both mother and child? Again, i think it should be our MAKER'S choice. "Thou shalt not kill" Exodus
no offence.
I'm not at all offended - thanks for your contribution.
Bless ya, dear LG, for writing this, for sharing your circumstance, and for being so kind in the subsequent comments to people who clearly do not understand what the realities of such a situation would be. This (apart from being an excellently well-written and logical article) is a very courageous piece of writing. Your son Isaac is gorgeous, by the way, and what a gift after such a gruelling experience.
Thank you - I admire your own writing immensely, and am touched by the compliment.
Isaac is absolutely lovely, in looks, at least (-: You'd never guess that his father is dark-haired, dark-eyed, I reckon (-:
I am glad you are able to give us a true education about what a person has to deal with when they decide they are going to have an abortion. Many like to tell women they should not have abortions, but to me that is terribly harsh and judgemental because only women who have been through that situation can truly know how to deal with it. I believe it is up to the woman to decide and I am glad you have provided factual information here about that.
Thanks SP - I don't think many, if any, women take abortion lightly.
I do not think any woman who has an abortion takes it lightly. However, I think some people who are pro-Life are very judgemental about it.
I agree. But there for the Grace of God....
If I found I was carrying a child that would certainly die at or within hours of birth, I don't think I could bear to go through the pregnancy. But maybe I could - fortunately, I've not been in that position. So I wouldn't judge a woman who made either choice in those circumstances.
Very good points LG. It must be a hard decision for any woman to make, but I guess what bothers me is how some people picket clinics and assume those who have abortions are horrible people. That part just really makes me sad.
I am sure that's right. It doesn't happen too much in the UK, but it does happen (and shouldn't at all). I support, of course, a right to protest, I wish these people would choose not to.
I think we are relatively lucky in the UK - abortion isn't really a political issue here. If it comes up in Parliament, all parties give their MPs and Lords a free vote, on personal not party lines. Issues such as this are never party political issues, and I think that's right. What a particular candidate believes on issues such as abortion is pretty much irrelevant in political terms.
I have not seen as many of these type of protests in Southern California, but when I was visiting my relatives in Kansas back in the nineties there was a fundamentalist group launching an abortion protest at a local park. This sort of did not sit well with many parents because their kids could see all of the graphic posters and hear all the shrill shouting. I support peoples' right to protest, but I think they also need to respect the rights and freedoms of others.
I agree with you about how your are better off in the UK without certain things such as abortion not being big political issues. We have a lot of messes to fix here in the US at the moment.
We are far from perfect here, I do realise that!
You wrote well. Abortion is a very hard topic and not all of the answers are cut and dry. Very few things in life are. If you have a child with major health problems, do you turn to transplant after transplant, or do you let nature take its course?
My first introduction to the topic came when I was 11 yo. A friend's mom was pregnant and had been diagnosed with Leukemia. The doctors gave her 3 months to live, then 2 weeks, then three days. At that point her husband gave permission for an abortion, so she could undergo treatment. She is now a grandmother, but the abortion left scars. She was glad to raise her family, but never was at peace with the price paid to do so.
My first miscarriage was an 'outy' pregnancy. The baby was probably five months along, and my body managed to support it, until I got pregnant with a normal pregnancy. (Un)forciently, we did not know what was going on, until it was over. I am glad I was never faced with having to make a chose about a pregnancy that was not viable.
I think it's a decision few women would enjoy making. But some women need to, and I think we should all accept their decisions in such circumstances, whatever they decide to do.
Your hub is beautifully and thoughtfully written. I agree with Lissie, that this is an individual decision - not a doctor decision or a government decision or a church decision. Each single situation is different. And I agree also with LondonGirl - it's a hard decision and we need to accept their decisions, whatever they decide. You certainly have thoughtful, intelligent comments on this hub. It is a very good read. Well Done!
thank you - I'm really touched by your comment, and glad you enjoyed the hub!
I don't think any woman just shrugs and says, "I'll have an abortion today" as if she were getting her hair cut.
I believe life is in the hands of God but if anyone feels they want to take it in their own hands its up to them....great hub by the way, very informative.
Thanks for taking the time to read it, and I'm glad you found it interesting.
London Girl,
I don't believe it is possible for there to be a consensus on this subject. In the US "Roe v Wade" 1974 has controlled the legality on abortion. It uses the state's interest in the fetus on a trimester level. Each trimester the state gets more involved in the outcome.
Is this a Solomon type wisdom? probably not but it does put a starting line on the tug of war about abortion.
Many abortions are moral erasers, oops I didn't mean to have a child.
I don't possess the wisdom to answer your hub correctly, but my though is that we humans posses the highest intelligence of life on our planet, has the sex drive and mentality of an animal. This is not to say that all humans act primitively regard to sex but they are exceptions.
Consider, for instance that the Jewish belief is that at 13 a boy becomes a man. I believe this is biologically correct. The problem is that in ancient times this was not a problem. The boy turned man than had the responsibilites of an adult. This is similar in many primitive cultures as well.
In our time and our society, that 13 year old man is still a child. The problem is that while he has all of the sexual drives and capacity as an adult he is not emotionally ready to act as an adult.
When sex homones flood the human body, the intellectual part of the brain is put on standby, at least until the hormones dissipate. Then as they used to say on the TV show "outer Limits", we now return control back to you.
Animals use their sex drive as it was intended to continue the survival of their species. The human race now has a break from day to day survival in the sense of animal survival. We get fat because the primitive survival mechanism translates stress into flight or fight but there is no visible enemy. The primitive brain doesn't understand that the threat is not real and it sends signals to the body to store fat and keep doing it every time these conditions occur.
I the human brain had an intelligent mechanism that could differentiate between the sex drive and the procreate drive many more children would be born without the threat of being aborted.
The Catholic Church wanted only sexual activity that would be only for producing a child as its main goal. That is not the way humans are wired.
Another consequence of modern living and the age we live in, is the amount of hormones put into basic foods that children eat. They were not put into the foods for the children but into the animals that they want to grow faster and larger to make a profit selling their food.
The hormones have accelerated puberty making the problem that I described above even worse.
Religions have changed much in the last three hundred years, some of it a bad change and I am not sure of the good change.
The Church of England was created because of divorce.
In the US over 50% of marriages fail.
My point is that you can't expect and ancient tradition to co-exist in modern society. Abortion is one of those issues. To remove the option of abortion, society would have to change back to its ancient religious roots. Things like 'Til Death Do Us Part' and family.
You can delete my comments at your discretion.
but I thought, that you asked.
I've never deleted any comments on any hub, and particularly would never delete thoughtful, interesting ones like yours!
I don't think, really, that abortion (and contraception) is a modern issue. The Egyptians were using things a bit like a coil, and whether legal or not, abortion has always happened.
As far as there always being disagreement on the issue of abortion, I agree with you to some extent. But I also think it's valuable to look for those aspects of a bitter debate where more people can agree, rather than always focusing on the disagreements.
London Girl,
I didn't really think that you would delete a comment.
BTW, I wasn't referring to the method of contraception, I was focusing on how out of step society and our brains are apart.
On the disagreement arena, sometimes East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet.
To reduce the moral erase abortions, there should be a change in the adoption laws that make it necessary for some people to go out of country to adopt. Second, there should be a national if not global donor program. Much like there are for organ donors, only not for parts.
just a thought.
there are cultural issues there - but I don't necessarily disagree.
cheers
One of the problems with inter-country adoption is baby-stealing and baby-farming. I know a number of countries have recently tightened up international adoption procedures.
I happen to believe that every woman has the right to her own body, and that includes choosing abortion when faced with a preganancy that, for nearly any reason, is against her wishes.
Given this, I do not believe that the law should dictate when a woman may or may not have an abortion.
What may be surprising, however, is that I am not sure whether or not I would ever choose abortion - especially if my health or life are not in danger. I have not been in that position, and I have no idea what I would feel that I want.
This is where the separation of personal and political becomes poignant -- what *I* may believe is right and what I believe should be implemented in law. I hold a plethora of personal views (e.g. certain people shoult not have children under any circumstances) that I would be appaled to hear were turned into law. What I believe for myself (and even for others) is not the same as what I would choose to have be legally binding under any circumstances.
Unforutnately, I am not feeling particularly articulate at the moment, but still compelled to share my thoughts.
Great hub!
The laws of the culture follow the change in the morals of the culture.
At one time it was a disgrace to have a child out of wedlock, and now it doesn't matter.
My focus is that abortions shouldn't be to rectify a mistake in judgement. This is especially true in those people that have several abortions.
If you chose to take your body and rob a bank, then you have to pay for the consequences. You can't abort the robbery after it has been completed.
Hi Carolyn - I don't think it's odd at all to believe that something should be legal but not want to do it oneself. For example, I have absolutely no desire to smoke cannabis regularly, but I do think it should be legal.
Having had one (forced) abortion because of an ectopic pregnancy, I can say for sure I'd be in no great hurry to have one again for any reason if I could help it. But I would not criminalise it either.
Hi issues:
"My focus is that abortions shouldn't be to rectify a mistake in judgement. This is especially true in those people that have several abortions."
I agree. I can't even imagine having several abortions, myself! Sounds horrendous.
Wow, how did I miss this? It was very brave of you to write this from personal experience and admit that publicly, and you did it with such grace and focus. Beautifully done, really.
I also do think abortion has to be available for reasons of safety and choice. I believe it is up to the mother, period, and that doctors have an obligation to offer abortion as a choice especially when the issues are very difficult, such as the ones you describe here.
One thing that has always bothered me is that although some people are vehemently against abortion for religious reasons, those same people rarely treat miscarriage like a death. It seems inconsistent--and doctors are often very insensitive about miscarriage too, almost like, oh well, this isn't a baby any more, nevermind you can try again. I would so like to see more compassion and common sense humanity in these matters--not just in the matter of abortion, but in matters relating to birth and pregnancy in general. It's a messy business--the best outcome is messy, bloody, emotional--People should be more kind and available no matter what the outcome.
That's my two cents, for what it's worth. Excellent hub.
I'm like Pam. How did I miss this?
You are right, this is a touchy subject. If I had to say the bottom line on the issue, I would say that having an abortion is not the right choice. That comes from religious beliefs, but do I understand why someone would consider it or even go through with it? Most certainly. I've never been in a situation to consider it, but I know that there are many reasons where this might seem to be the best solution at the moment. I've had a few people I knew that went through with abortions. I did not agree with their decision, but I was there for them when it was over and offered a shoulder to cry on.
This is something that should not have to be regulated by government and should NEVER EVER be chosen quickly or without deep thought. It is something that cannot be undone. I think that is what bothers me the most is that many don't think through it. I consider the child a life and mourn whenever one is lost at whatever stage it is. What possibilities could have been there!
I applaud you for your honesty and well-written piece.
Yeah, I missed it too ...
I volunteer as the IT/Computer guy for a local pro-life ministry. This ministry focuses on doing what it can to help life rather than just simply being against abortion. So, I'm pretty involved...
THere is a multi-billion dollar industry that exploits legitimate compassion for situations like yours to advocate abortion as birth control to line their pockets.
That having been said, .. My preference would be that it not be so political ... this should be decided at the state and local level not the national (or international) level by lawyers (well, you're a lawyer, but you were makding this choice as a woman)
In (hopefully) rare, legitimate medical cases like yours the option might be considered and it should not be dictated by the courts or the political pundits. Clearly this event was not easy for you and I,too, applaud your courage for writing about it.
This is a fantastic hub.
I think abortion should be safe and legal, but like health care, I do not think it should be a business. When healthcare decisions are business decisions, that poses an ethical problem, I think. When a clinic that makes money by billing procedures is couselling people about abrortion, I think that is a conflict of interest.
My elderly aunt caught me by surprise one day by declaring herself pro-choice. Because of her age and her very conservative attitude to so many things, I hadn't expected her to think that way. She was quick to explain that a girlfriend of hers had been attacked and raped during the blackout in the London Blitz (Second World War) The rape resulted in a pregnancy, and far from being sympathetic, the girl's mother told her that she would have to leave, because the pregnancy brought shame on the family. The girl climbed to the top of a very tall department store and threw herself off. Desparation is a terrible thing.
Amanda that is so sad. A similar event happened in my own family--my grandmother had a sister who commited suicide on the 1920s over a similar situation. Her family disowned her and she jumped off a bridge, and after that, no one spoke of her again--as if she never existed. My grandmother finally told us the secret just before she herself died at 82. I wonder how many times this has happened? I think probably many times.
Dear Pam - I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I agree that the attitude to miscarriage is odd. My best mate was pregnant this time last year, and suffered a miscarriage at 3 months' pregnant. She was baffled by the number of people who said, "oh well, better have fun trying again!" like all she wanted to do was get more sex in. Bizarre.
Fortunately, she's now pregnant again, and at over 6 months, happy and healthy, as is the baby. But it's not like replacing a pane of glass, the baby she lost is still lost.
Dear RGraf,
I'm glad you found it interesting.
"This is something that should not have to be regulated by government and should NEVER EVER be chosen quickly or without deep thought. It is something that cannot be undone."
I don't think women do necessarily rush into it, though. I certainly did not, even though the medical advice was so strongly to hurry up, before more serious complications arose. I talked to my parents as well as, obviously, my other half.
I did mourn - but for the child that had never been able to grow in the right place. It was still a loss, if you can understand that, because when I found out I was pregnant, it never occured to me that the baby might not be viable.
Of course, it occured to me an awful lot when I was pregnant with Isaac two years later! Fortunately, all was well for us both.
"In (hopefully) rare, legitimate medical cases like yours the option might be considered and it should not be dictated by the courts or the political pundits. Clearly this event was not easy for you and I,too, applaud your courage for writing about it"
It's sadly not that rare - ectopic pregnancies don't happen all the time, but they do happen to far more woman than one might think.
I am glad you found the hub interesting. For me, it was a case of putting my money where my mouth is - and trying, perhaps, to draw the two sides together more than split them apart.
"When a clinic that makes money by billing procedures is couselling people about abrortion, I think that is a conflict of interest."
That wasn't an issue in my case - because it was all National Health Service, no-one was really making money out of it.
I agree, it is a bit of a conflict of interest when a clinic is supposed to offer objective advice but profits if one course is followed rather than another.
Amanda - I fear this sort of thing happened only too often, think of poor Tess of the D'Urbervilles! I'm glad we no longer live in a world where "getting into trouble" is such a disaster
Every woman has the right to decide whether to abort or not. The question that impacts this decision really, at what age is the woman\teenager and how far along is her pregnancy? Does the mother had AIDS? Does a teenager have less rights because they are under 21 or 18? should the parents decide? be told? If an adult, is this decision an absolute right? What if the mother is mentally incapacitated? What happens if the baby is normal yet the parents are mental cases, as in the great movie, I Am Sam (Sean penn). Some think that a human begins life at conception...such rubbish, others take a more realistic approach that it begins at mid term or so. Whether a woman has an abortion is up to her and her mate, if there is one, after they take in all the issues of able to raise it, health etc.
So much to talk about - and what is the point? I think we all have opinions >>that is for sure, but I find so many people wanting to shout their opinion and cover their ears so as not to hear anothers that may be in disagreement. So what is the point?
In my opinion - I don't think the current abortion laws reflect a civil society. When a child is carried into the third trimester, labor induced and the child is partially birthed then killed before the rest of the body comes out...something is wrong. Very wrong. When a womans rights supercedes the rights of innocent children ( a viable healthy fetus that could survive out of the womb) what does that say of us as a human race?
I wanted to comment on the the revenue that abortion brings in - the tax dollars that go to the government. In the last 24 hours more abortions where performed by medical doctors than soldiers died in the Vietman war all together. One day. What person in the judicial system would ever want to change the incoming $$$ cash? ...Just a thought of mine.
Who is performing the abortions? Dumb question. A doctor...right? I hadn't really thought much about it but when I read that people are going to medical school to be an abortion doctor, it was a shocking thought. All day long, a doctor just performs abortions. Then does it all again the next day. And again the next day. Yet another thought I had on the subject...Personally, it is a sickening thought - one I wish I never had.
What is the point in discussing this subject?
My answer -> Discussion/Communication and NOT shouting matches as I have seen so often. Everybody's opinion is important, each one of us is important and valuable - we should listen to eachother and stop critising an opinion simply because it does not agree with our own.
London Girl - Well written and informative Hub!
I'm glad you enjoyed it. I agree, just trying to shout each other down gets a bit dull, but constructive discussion can be very useful.
Do doctors just do abortions? Here, it's a tack-on to either a surgical practice, or Ob & Gyn.
"Do doctors just do abortions? Here, it's a tack-on to either a surgical practice, or Ob & Gyn"
LondonGirl ... Depends on the senario ... if a woman here was like in your case it may very well have been a "real" doctor doing the work. (i.e a doctor who does other things, and truly medically necessary abortions.)
But, at least here in the States, there is a substantial number of doctors who work for an industry that does abortion strictly for the purpsoe of birth control for money. It is big business here in the states. Fortunately, at least around these parts, people are routinely finding life affirming alternatives and these death factories are going out of business. Not because of laws or shouting, but because calm discussion and education make the choice more informed, and the demand has dropped.
Fair enough - I don't know about the general rule here. When I was seen in Casualty (Accident & Emergency) they grabbed hold of a Consultant from the Ob & Gyn department, appropriately enough, and this same doctor admitted me as a patient and did the operation.
I saw him again when I was pregnant with Isaac, two years later, to check it wasn't an ectopic pregnancy again, and then through the pregnancy, because the same doctor did normal and healthy pregnancies most of the time.
Thank you for treating this subject with such sensitivity, humility, and respect. You took a very sensitive issue that raises strong emotions in so many, and you managed to balance on a high wire between two extremes without judging or offending either. Wonderful. Another great hub, LondonGirl!
how very kind, Sarah! Glad you enjoyed it.
I am no expert nor do I have any experience with the matter but I totally agree with your decision but at the same time, I feel that its all about personal perspective. In this case its not about being morally correct or not, its a personal choice. As you said, its the right decision but a very emotionally painful one, maybe someone else cannot withstand the pain you did. I don't think we can demarcate wrong and right in here which is usually what people tend to do as soon as they hit the word abortion.
I am glad your found the hub interesting. I do think that these are personal decisions - firstly for the woman herself, and, if she chooses to involve them, the father and other family members.
This is a great Hub, LondonGirl. No question you made the right choice! Lots of women commented on wether or not to abort when you KNOW you'll have a handicapped baby. None of them have looked at the matter further along in life. I have. By chance I've been acquainted with 4 families with handicapped children- now this is not a statistic - just my observation: over the years all those 4 marriages broke up. Luckily in most cases, the family helped the mother + handicapped baby, but not always "gracefully". They saw it as their christian duty, but mumbled other things under their breath..All involved were unhappy, strained to breaking point, financially as well as otherwise. I offered to chip in for a few hours now and then - to allow them a bit of free time -but believe me, it was hell most of the time, and I was glad to get home again, and it took me "days" to get my nevers together again. I cannot go into details here, just take my word for it.
Those men who have commented further up: abortion is NOT to be an option under ANY circumstances - they should do babysitting for such children for some weeks, months, years - and then we talk again!
What we also do not see here: for a healthy baby you do anything because you see a future, and hope. Heavily handicapped children have none of this - and this weighs heavily on the souls of all concerned.
And I'd really be interested in a statistic where the FATHER stayed with the handicapped child and gave up his life completely, while the mother left the family behind to live her life happily - unhindered - just paying support - not caring otherwise. But of course, such a statistic does not exist!
Why not? I leave it up to your imagination how it would look - this statistic - if it ever did exist! So there's absolutely no question that it's the mother's choice, and her's only, to decide what to do when prenatal diagnostics shows bad. She's the one whose life and health is on the block, and she's usually the one to carry the full burden.
Here again - I'd like to stress that there's no way to "generalize" in this subject - the children I talked about here were severely handicapped, not just "slightly"- and who's to tell the "degree" of the handicap? Not even doctors can prognose it really in prenatal diagnostic within the 1st 2 trimesters.. and the loger the pregnancy carries on, the lesser a mother is inclined to have the abortion. All these women told me they were actually hoping for a kind of miracle to happen (and it does sometimes). Well, it did not come off for them.
All of these mothers look about twice their age, although they are still rather young women, and were once rather pretty, too. None of them has found another partner - guess why? They can never sleep through a night. They drag their feet through life in utter exhaustion, which does not get less when they have older, healthy children - you cannot really put more than a decent amount of burden on to these. All in all, these mothers don't have a LIFE any more and never will have.
Today, there are some organisations who collect money for these sad creatures (I'm talking about the mothers, rather, the children don't even realize what's up) so they can get a short holiday or a weekend off.
To end this discussion I'd say: all those wisecracks should "try just once to walk in the other persons' shoes" before breaking the stick over it. And I'd certainly disqualify anybody to even take part in such a discussion who has never raised children. Fullstop.
Again, thanks for your interesting hub, LondonGirl, best wishes for you and your family!
Thanks for taking the time to read and comment. I agree with you.
It does seem to me that those people most against abortion tend to be men. And it is not, as you so rightly say, men who bear most of the physical and emotional burden of pregnancy and childcare. Perhaps that is why it is easier for those men to hold such definitie opinions - women are far more likely to see the infinite shades of grey in such matters.
Hi LondonGirl, this is a great hub! I think that if a mother had a serious health problem (or the baby) that it should be her choice whether to abort or not, but if there are no health problems I don’t think people should be given the choice to abort. I actually don’t even see that what happened to your baby is abortion, because you actually had no choice…you would have most probably died if you went through with it. Abortion to me means getting rid of a perfectly healthy baby when there are no reasons health wise to do so.
Glad you found it interesting. I don't think I had a choice, either, but it was still a very difficult experience, as I imagine any abortion is!
I am pro-choice on so many different levels, not the least of which is that an unwanted child becomes an abused child - if not physically, then emotionally.
Every person is entitled to make decisions regarding his/her body. No one should decree differently.
I have also heard it said that if men ran the risk of becoming pregnant that abortion would be a sacrament. While this is making light of a serious subject, it nevertheless contains a grain of truth.
I, too, notice more men than women protesting against abortion. Also that the woman are usually past child-bearing age. How morally virtuous one can be when one will *never* (or never again) be faced with the decision to carry a child to term or not.
I also wonder where these same people disappear to when unwanted children are in need of food, clothing, medical services, or a loving home. Oh, right...they're protesting the public assistance given to women who have too many babies.
It is the morthers choice to have an abortion regardless of the circumstances. While I do not belive in "late term" abortion I do believe that if a woman has more then one she should be foreced to have her tubes tied. Before I get roasted for that comment if man rapes a woman I believe he ought to be rendered usless in the area of child bearing, call it steralizing, castration or what ever.
Choice the decisions we make are are one of the very last acts of civility and abusing those should have repercussions. May sound harsh but both would curtail the abuses.
It's hard to find concensus on hot button moral issues like this-- I mean people can't even agree on when life begins and when it comes to abortion that's pretty important-- In any case, I don't think this is a decision that should be made by anyone but the two people involved. My daughter-in-law had an ectopic pregnancy like yours LG, and a chemical abortion. There really was no choice. In days gone by both you and she might have died and women did often die from complications of pregnancy, childbirth and from illegal messy abortions. Thank God the technology exists to terminate dangerous pregnancies safely today.
This is a tough subject no matter how you look at it or which side you are on.
There is news in the USA today that an abortion doctor was murdered in church this morning in Kansas, so while I was looking for other news related to this tragedy, I found your blog. You've written a really good and thought-provoking article and you also created a really great forum for comments on all sides of the issue. We are too often polarised in our opinions on this issue. I really appreciate your efforts in trying to get people to come together and agree on what makes sense.
Hi Nancy - I agree with you, no-one thinks abortion is a good thing, but sometimes it's the least-worst option. And it should be a matter for the woman herself, and any other people she chooses to involve, and her doctor, and that's it.
Hi JG, it's a shame that those who aren't directly affected by the issue are the most vocal. This is a far more political issue in the USA than the UK - people who are "anti" abortion in the UK tend to want the time limits tightened up a bit, rather than banning it altogether.
And in political terms, MPs are always given a "free vote", no party line on ethical issues such as this one.
Karl, thanks for reading and commenting. Would you think a woman should be steralised if she had two late-term abortions on the grounds of serious feotal abnormality, though?
Robie, I wish that some people wouldn't approach abortion in the context of "they should have the baby and let someone adopt it". In so many cases, that's not an option, for reasons of the health of one or the other. I hope you daughter-in-law recovered properly from her ectopic pregnancy, it's a difficult thing, both emotionally and physically.
Lucey, I agree. It's far from being an easy issue.
Hi Pam - glad you found this, but I'm sorry, of course, for the prompting event!
With many contensious issues, I think we are better trying to find common ground where we can, and starting from that.
Would you force a parent to donate, say, bone marrow or a liver to their sick child?
Assume that the parent is a biological father who didn't want the kid to begin with. Also assume that the child would die without the donation.
Does the child's right to life trump the father's right to his own body? Does it matter how old the child is? Should the father just not have had sex if he was unwilling to donate his body parts to all his possible children? Is he murdering the child if he chooses not to share some of his body parts with the child?
Needless to say, I think abortion is OK at all times for all reasons. After viability, however, the fetus should simply be delivered rather than aborted, and if the mother does not want her baby she can leave it in a safe haven, which is what laws allow today anyway.
Thanks for reading and commenting. The problem with "after viability" as you suggest, is that in many of these cases the baby is seriously deformed in some crucial way, so the safe haven thing isn't an option.
Safe haven laws make no exception for seriously deformed children. They can be dropped off just as legally as healthy babies can.
Of course they can't - they can't be moved from the life support systems, or they have died!
I do not judge anyone who has an abortion for personal or medical reasons. I only can decide for myself. I enjoyed reading your hub and experiences ,I to have experienced a suspected ectopic pregnancy , I miscarried spontanously the next day which I beleive they also call a 'missed abortion' but they were surprised when testing my urine that I appeared to be still pregnant......yes there were twins , one made it to 9 weeks ( suspected ectopic) but I carried the 2nd baby to 19 weeks , then miscarried him at home.
Jordan didnt exist to the medical dept,even though he was perfectly formed since he was deemed 'unviable'( at 19weeks) and the laws of the land didnt recognise his existance either until the foetus is 23 weeks he shall be deemed 'Viable'. I understand that it is an emotional issues and rightfully so , but that is why I dont believe mankind has the answer to our moral problems ,it has to come from within....not from without.
Im not deeply religious but Gods law ( not the ones who say they do his business either) but his word has merit for me and peace when I need it. He promised me more babies and he kept that promise.
I am happy everything worked out for you.
What a horrible experience for you - a roller-coster of emotions, as one baby survived the initial miscarriage, only for it to happen again.
I'm glad to here that, like me, you've subsequently had a happy and healthy pregnancy. How many children do you have?
Yes and I think pgrundy touched on how messy some of our laws or responses make thoses experiences even more traumatic. I went on to have two more drop dead gorgeous sons!! 6ft tall, just great kids ,I mention them on my profile and they have influenced a couple of my hubs.
I have a drop dead gorgeous son, too, but as he's 3 years old he isn't 6 ft yet (-:
First of all in the "Severely Abnormal" category—my father has a hare lip and he is a hell of man who travels in high circles. Because of surgery and his mustache, nobody knows about it. He couldn't talk until he was seven and was teased unmercifully by other children for talking "funny" after that. He is not bitter. In fact, he credits his "problem" with the incredible drive he has. At 73, he run circles around anybody I know. Now to the main discussion.
I am sorry for what you went through. That had to have been gut-wrenching and I don't know anybody who would blame you in any way. Bless your heart. :(
Thank you for your very calm and level-headed article. It is brave of you to share this part of your life. I agree with you that if having the baby is going to kill the mother, it is sadly OK. If the baby is going to die in the womb, it may be sadly OK.
But to the person above who says it is nobody's business except the mother—my ass! If that is my child inside a woman it is every bit my business. Since when is the life and death of a man' s heirs, his bloodline, his descendants none of his damn business?! This is so wrong I cannot see how any sane person could think it. But millions do. It's the Devil's work I tell ya.
Anyway, we're not here to talk about that, right?
I am pro-choice—it is a choice not to open your legs if unwilling to take the natural consequences, which are? hmmm . . . what are reproductive organs for?
One of your commenters notes more men seem to protest. Well, yea! Should we not protest our offspring being killed against our wishes? And gallingly, being told it is none of our business!? A shocking state of affairs.
To the person above who it is "rubbish" that life begins at conception, I suggest Biology 101. That is an idiotic statement. And the one who says men should shut up unless they are willing to babysit? Excuse me, I am one of millions of men who have been a single father to my children when their mother ran off and abandoned them to live it up. And the comment that only women are "stuck" with the responsibility of the baby. Family Court does not agree. Men are "stuck" with 18 to 21 years of child support or they go to prison.
If you want to know why we can't all get along, just consider the meanings of some of these statements in the historical context to anyone who is not a postmodern, relativistic deconstructionist. It's not you, LondonGirl. You speak with the voice of reason and solemnity required for the occasion. Thank you very much for the gutsy attempt.
Thanks for reading, and considering so carefully, James.
"I am pro-choice—it is a choice not to open your legs if unwilling to take the natural consequences, which are? hmmm . . . what are reproductive organs for?"
I think that's where I disagree with you. If the natural consequences include a foetus that doesn't grow properly or in the right place, I don't think those consequences have to be just accepted.
I agree with you that a hare lip or cleft palate isn't a major abnormality. Nor is, say, a missing finger or a club foot.
But there are some terrible developmental abnormalities which can occur without the mother's body rejecting the foetus and causing a miscarriage, such as severe spina bifida (where the back of the spine and nervous columns can fail to close over) or no brain developing at all, or genetic problems such as extra genes in random places. Down's Syndrome is mild compared with, say, Trisomy 18.
Im not sure where James refered to me or not since he couldnt be bothered using names lol ,either way I am pro-life .My body has naturally aborted and have also gone on to have healthy pregnancies.
I do agree that the rights of the father should be 50/50 as was his participation ( I presume anyway)
My view is ife begins at conception , what the heck is Biology 101 to a person not in school?
Yes, I agree with all that you said. Thanks for responding. This is a good and needful Hub.
It weren't you Eagle. :D You're in the clear.
Glad the test was positive ...lol
Hey LondonGirl,
This was a very good hub. It touched on a lot of issues that we have to deal with as women and the moral side of the decisions we make. Ectopic pregnancy often ends in miscarriage though, so I don't know if it really is the same thing if you choose to abort before it becomes dangerous.
I have to say though, that I really struggle with the issue of abortion whether it be justified or not. I just don't know if it really is ever justified. And trust me, I'm not talking from a righteous point of view. I had to make that decision once upon a time, and my situation was impossible. I couldn't make up my mind, having been raised in a Baptist home, I already had massive opinions towards abortion. But being faced with a seemingly no-way-out situation, my previous platform of belief completely crumbled and I was lost. I went to counselling to help make the decision, and I found that the counsellors, though sweet and understanding, made me feel like I wouldn't regret a thing and that I needn't worry that I was doing anything wrong. Needless to say, I went through with it. And I still regret it to this day. There is not one day that I don't think about it. I really wasn't prepared for a lifetime of guilt after abortion, but that is what I'm living. Though I have 3 children and life is good and I have healed from the pain and personal suffering of what I did, regret lives long and is unbelievably stubborn.
My advice to women today is to think long and hard before considering abortion. No matter what, I don't believe I could ever regret having a child, regardless of the situation, but I am definitley regretting what I've done.
However, I can't judge. All I can do is tell of my own experience and hope that others can make a better decision than I did.
Sincerely,
Megs
Thanks for sharing your experience here too, Megs. I'm sorry it was so very difficult for you <hugs>
I strongly believe that being "adult" enough to have sex should mean that the two partners in crime should be "adult" to take on any possible responsibilities. It's not the baby's fault the parents were irresponsible. I believe that there are 3 reasons an abortion should be allowed, but it must be no doubt that its true. They are rape, incest, and the endangerment of the mother's life. From what you said, ectopic pregnancies are hardly if ever last long enough to birth the child (I'm not 100% about statistics). As far as children with problems, if the doctor could somehow tell the baby wouldn't last more than a very, very short while, it might not be worth the mother going through all of that pain and suffering of giving birth. It should be the mother's choice, there should be rules, and there should be a time limit (i.e. 1st trimester, 4 months, etc.) I want to have a few kids of my own, but I know that waiting for the right woman and the right time will pay off in the long run.
The trouble with limiting abortion to the first trimester when the baby is not viable or the mother ill, is that many of these problems don't show up until after 20 weeks.
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Rochelle Frank says:
13 months ago