Jahovah witnesses and Christians
56I grew up in a Christian household and the number one rule was do not answer the door for no one especially for Jahovah witnesses. I never even got to know what they where and who they were. They just never had a chance. However when i started school and heard about all of my christian friends being told that same thing i started to wonder. I looked them up and asked all my teachers (the separation of school and religion rule didn't allow me to get that far) and i learned that they only went door to door to tell people about what they are about and maybe make you more aware of their views on life. I don't think that is so bad so why do Christians make it a point to distant them from their children but not Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhist. Why Jehovah witnesses.
So I figure if Christians have a problem with people ministering door to door then they should quit their entire missionary system and quit forcing people to convert. Is it really right to press Christianity on atheist and agnostics but not okay for Muslims, Buddhist, and Jehovah witnesses to minister to other religions.
I feel that everyone should hear out everyones's views and make his or her decision and respect it. However this is a utopia that will never happen because when you think you're right you just know you are and will not accept anything else and that is how resentment is formed for these other beliefs.
Jahovah witness visit
How do you feel when you get a JW visit?
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Add another poll question.... Like, I like challenging the JWs
Before I became a Christian I was a Jehovah's Witness. I don't treat them with disrespect. They however, treat me like I have the Plague. They (any that find out that I used to be a JW)are disrespectful and rude and all because I changed my views on God. I am ostracized for changing my mind. I don't argue and many times I say nothing all. My parents view me as dead to them. When they moved, they did not give my sister and myself their new telephone number or address. (My sister changed from being a JW too.) We can not even call them to get rejected when we say we love them, like we did before. I work with a Jehovah's Witness lady and sadly I sinned because when she asked me if I used to be a witness I lied to her and said no. She must have heard familiar terms I said or that I sometimes use Scripture similarly, but she suspected. I knew that our working relationship and friendship would end if she knew. I worked with her for years and she reminded me for all the world like my mother. I can honestly say I love her like that. But I lied to her and it was wrong. Recently she found out that I WAS a JW and she has not spoken to me since except to yell and cut with her words, to harrass and be cruel. I do not argue back because I know everyone is watching to see what I will do. How will a Christian stand up for himself. Will he fight or make her an ememy? It is entertainment after all, and you don't even have to pay admission. I am not sorry I am a Christian. I am not sorry I left the Witnesses because I had many Scriptures that proved to me there was problems with my beliefs while one. If you need anything in the way of information about my thinking I would be happy to explain the differences. But know this, I love them, respect them as people, but believe them to be mistaken in their beliefs.
Thank you so much for your story i appreciate it and i am so sorry people can not accept what you have come to believe in...im glad you found what was right for you "No Body"
no body
Nice one no body, now I can see why sis, is on the hub so much, and going for it
You did the right thing.
jrosemond, when people profess to be Christian, it means they follow Christ. Therefore, Christianity and Jehovah's Witnesses do have some differences. When I was called to meet with them (yes, God confirmed I was to do this), I asked the Lord what we should cover in our discussions. The only thing that mattered was the question Jesus asked Peter in Matthew 16:15, Mark 8:29 and Luke 9:20. The answer is so generic that it's often misunderstood by many professed "Christian" faiths, which is to say "You are the Christ, the Son of God".
People do admit this, but JW's believe the "Son" is an angel. Christians believe He was God in the flesh. JW's believe He is Michael the archangel who is not equal to God in any way. He is like God, but not God. They don't believe He rose again, but that His body was annihilated and He once again became the archangel Michael in heaven today.
After studying with them for nearly three months, they chose not to come back (I did not send them away). The Word proves that Jesus is indeed God in the flesh and I pray they were continually in God's care as they were so sincere in their ministry and their hearts to find the truth.
And, one of the reasons I met with them? My husband's sister and her family were JW's and indeed, they would not ever associate with us. The kids left home as soon as they were 18 and got married. It was evident oppression was not only in their family, but affected all of us. I have a couple of hubs you might be interested in: "Who are the sons of God" and "Signs of Christian Cults".
God bless you, and I am so thankful one such as "nobody", my brother in the Lord, has come forward to share, having been there and redeemed by the blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ, God in the flesh. amen ~ with Love ~~
It doesn't matter about any other point of doctrine, except that of salvation through Jesus Christ, our Savior, God in the flesh. This is what the Bible teaches and what Christians believe. JW's have study material called The Watchtower that interprets the scripture for them. Many false prophets utilize the teachings of a particular modernized "prophet" and that is dangerous, when it changes the very Word of God to mean something else, leading people AWAY from Jesus instead of TO Jesus.
Oh, one more thing the Lord wanted me to say, and that is the reason we see JW's and Mormons going door-to-door is because they are also a "works" based faith. Their "salvation" is through works. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace are your saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works..." Through Jesus Christ, we have been set free from the law of the Old Testament and walk in grace.
We tell others about Jesus, but not door-to-door; some probably do, but that's why I'm here on HubPages ~ God bless you!
Hello J
I enjoyed the cartoon immensely for the Truth within its humour.
The problem with JW's as with 99% of mainstream Christianity is that it's all based on fear (get saved or else) which, in turn, is used to manipulate its adherents. The greatest deception of the whole mainstream Christianity versus JW's thing is this: they are all cultish in nature.
There are three core elements to the nature of a cult - Domination, Manipulation and Control which is DeMoniC in make up. The Popish counterfeit church upon which all of mainstream Christianity is based via their trinity beliefs is the largest cult in the world. When they attack JW's its just people in glass houses throwing stones.
Rest assured there is no fear in True Christianity other than from those who would persecute us.
thanks carrie this subject has brought out differents sides of the the spectrum i never knew so i appreciate it so much for your post
yes2truth i am glad that you found enjoyment in the cartoon. as soon as i saw that i just had to post it
Jrosemond, just to share that yes2truth and I are not of the same teaching regarding Christianity. I would like to share that perfect love casts out all fear. Those who dwell in the love of God because of salvation through Jesus Christ have no fear, but those who reject Jesus Christ do indeed have something to fear, per the very Bible's teachings (which yes2truth and I seem to disagree upon). I will just leave these verses here to give this balance:
John 12:47 Jesus says, "And if anyone hears My sayings, and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world." (This is where the false doctrines stop, but we must read on) ~~ In the next two verses, Jesus says, "He who rejects Me, and does not receive my sayings, has One who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak."
I love you and am glad you seek the truth. Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. Behold, He stands at the door to your heart and knocks. If anyone hears His voice, He will come into him and dine with him, and he with the Lord! The Lord promises!
thank you again carrie that's what im doing knocking for truth and waiting for an open door
(Revelation 3:20) Jesus says, He is knocking on the door of your heart. You have only to open the door and call upon the name of Jesus and He will save you. At that time, the Holy Spirit will be given to you to lead you and guide you, to give you the discernment of what is true and what is false. Rely on His Word alone, not the teachings or interpretation of any man. My hubs, as well as many others, will give our interpretations, but ultimately, you will know His voice. God says, "My sheep hear my voice and they know Me and I know them." Praise God! He is faithful and gracious in your walk and will never leave you nor forsake you. You have the power, given by God through Jesus Christ, to open the door and let Him in. He is waiting!! He's just a prayer away!!
Hello J,
I agree with Ms Bradshaw about the fact that we differ in what we teach. She teaches the tenets of the Christian Religion, I teach The Truth and The Way and The Truth and The Way is the Lord Jesus Christ.
She states that love casts out all fear and that is true but what she fails to mention is that the Christian Religious message is totally based upon fear. Fundamentally what they teach is this: if you don't get saved (and it's all down to you as the individual - which is a lie) you will go to hell (the fiery variety) and burn in torment for all eternity - another lie and completely fear based.
Now what is it they say about JW's!!?? I am having vivid images of pots and kettles.
jrosemond
Hi There
Carrie has given you the correct information, You do have a choice, and at the moment you are being called thats why you have questions. God is using your circumstances to lead you to him. Once you come into the Kingdom of God there will be no preassure to perform, its not Gods style.
There are many things to follow out in the world, many for and many against. But the one that tells you about Jesus Christ is the one to follow.
If you dont know what to listen to,go to my hub and click on the "Who I recommend hearing" or click these below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb39D4IrvNc
http://www.youtube.com/user/JosephPrinceMedia
Go for it
Hello J
Ms Bradshaw and her sycophantic supporter are both wrong.
You only have a choice after you have been called by The Father. If The Father has or is calling you, you must now decide who you will follow and which direction you will go. Is it down the wide path to destruction (spiritual ruin) which Ms Bradshaw and her sycophantic supporter are on, within their futile Christian Religion, or the narrow path that very few find, which means are you going to follow the Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone?
jrosemond
So I wouldnt believe yes2truth....He delets peoples comments on his hubs so he can spread his distortions, and tell you that he is CHOSEN and nobody else. So he is trying to rob you of freedom.
CHOOOOOOOSE Jesus Christ not man.
I appreciate all of your different view, points of perspective on this very controversial subject...you all have been very professional and open about what you have to say in giving me as much truth as you can offer. Thank you all and i look forward to hearing your voices on my other hubs about similar subjects
J,
With regard to Grim Reaper's judgemental accusations.
I only delete other peoples comments when they have nothing constructive to say nor bring any Biblical evidence to prove their point. Emotional egotistic opinions are not worth a dime. My comments before that were deleted from Ms Bradshaw's hub.
As for me being chosen, how can I tell a lie and say I am not chosen when I am? I am also one of a few. I will also let deluded souls like Grim Reaper know that I am not alone and that they are one of many:
Matt 7:22-23 (KJV) MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Emphasis mine)
This passage of Holy Scripture is making direct reference to people who believe, for they are casting out demons and in His name too are doing and saying all manner of 'wonderful' things etc. but look at what The Lord says to them: "I never knew you, depart from me you people that work iniquity"
yes2truth, the main difference between your doctrine and that of "Christianity" (in the good sense, as the word has gotten a bad name over the years due to these that say, "Lord, Lord") is that of hell (hades, tartaroos and geenna). I have a hub on hell, and while we think it cruel of God, we read about this not-so-pleasant (understated) experience. Nowhere does it say it is a pleasant thing.
Regarding those who say "Lord, Lord" that God doesn't know, let's look at an applicable passage:
The passage you quoted, Matthew 7:22-23 is indeed addressing those who practice in God’s authority, using His name (the Name above all names), but they are not saved and indeed are “workers of iniquity”. Look at the passage in Acts 19:13-16. The Jewish exorcists and seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were attempting to cast out a demon using Jesus’ name. The demon said he recognized Jesus and Paul, but not them; therefore the man with the evil spirit leaped on them and overpowered them!
We see many people using the name of the Lord to cast out demons. Even Pharoh's magicians could do the same signs as Moses. The devil heals openly done surgeries without stitches in the occult practices. It's twisted alright....for these people will indeed wish to inherit the kingdom of God at the time of their judgment, and use this as "reasoning" with God.
It's not enough to "believe" in God or to confess that He is Lord, as the following scriptures explain:
James 2:19 states "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." (I wonder why they shudder if there's no hell?) The doctrine that shares your views actually believe the Devil and the fallen angels will be saved, too!
Matthew 8:29 the demons named Legion confess, "And behold, they cried out, saying 'What do we have to do with You, Son of God?" They obviously confessed who Jesus is, and yet are not sanctified by it!
Ms Bradshaw I will give you 10/10 for nonsensical intellectual explaining away.
The Lord Jesus Christ only spoke to two groups of people when He walked this earth: His Learners (erroneously called disciples) and the Men of Religion of His day - the Pharisees and The Scribes. The lost masses did not understand Him.
I also, like The Lord, only speak to two groups of people, those whom The Father is calling to His Son and the Men/Women of Religion - the 21st Century Pharisees and Scribes of the Christian Religion.
This means that Matthew 7:22-23 was addressed directly to the men of religion, the Pharisees and 2,000 years on it still applies to the men and women of the Christian Religion - 21st Century Pharisees.
I think the number one reason most people turn them away is they don't want their faith challenged. If you are a true believer, you should have no need to turn them away. Do what we do, invite them in. Listen to them, talk to them. I have family members that are Jehovah Witnesses, and although I believe them to be misguided, they shouldn't be shunned. I compare them to the scientist who draws a conclusion and then seeks out an experiment and results that match his conclusion. It is backward. What they seem to do it come up with a teaching, and then search the bible for a passage that relates. However, in doing so, many times they take the passage out of context. For example, the watchtower magazine had a teaching about not portraying Jesus. They even tried to tell us that we shouldn't have pictures of Jesus hanging up in our living rom. First of all, the page right beside the teaching was a full size picture of Jesus. oops. The editor should have caught this one. The second problem was the passages they were quoting were out of the old testament and weren't talking about Jesus at all. Jesus walked the earth in human form. People saw him and documented descriptions. If I have the time, I enjoy discussing religion with them. We even provide drinks and snacks, and invite them back, but within a couple discussions with them, we don't ever see them again. I still wonder if some of the ladies that we used to sit down with aren't Catholics now.
Willdawg, a very high percentage of JW's are those who were not studied up in the scriptures. One must be very confident in study ability and understanding before meeting with members of a faith such as JW's. It may be somewhat "easy" for you, but obviously you were confident in standing and studying with a disciplined boundary. I, too, knew how to study when I met with them and thus we could reason on an equal level. That's most important.
Willdawg
Do not be deceived.
You should not invite them in, but rather, send them away with a rebuke. I rebuke them on my doorstep with The Truth and reveal their errors to them and leave it at that. Only The Lord can open their eyes, not us.
All the cults including JW's have a lot of the truth and they were right to tell you to get rid of your idolatrous images of a non-Jesus. No one knows what He looked like, but one thing is for sure he wasn't a long haired looking nancy boy with a pathetic goatee beard as usually depicted by equally misguided mainstream Christians.
"I compare them to the scientist who draws a conclusion and then seeks out an experiment and results that match his conclusion. It is backward."
This is how Rome works, too, it's called syllogistics, and it is upon Rome that mainstream Christianity is built via their unifying trinity beliefs, Easter and Christmas. All of which are syllogisms.
yes2truth, I challenge you to look up the definitions (I've typed them here, perentheses and all) for God and Jesus, since you damn the trinity doctrine so harshly:
God in Genesis 1:1 - It is Hebrew #430 elohiym (el-o-heem’); PLURAL of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plural, thus especially with the article “the”) of the supreme God.
The name JESUS is Greek #2424: Iesous (ee-ay-sooce') meaning Jehoshua, the name of our Lord and two (three); same as Hebrew #3091 Yehowshuwa meaning Jehovah saved.
God was God the Father in the Old Testament. He was God with us (Jesus is Immanuel). When Jesus ascended to the Father, God is now IN us through His one and only Holy Spirit. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".
Is that clear enough for you? I have a hub on the Trinity explanation. It simply means God is One as shown in three. A husband and wife are also ONE, the same Greek word, if you LOOK IT UP.
yes2truth:
You are forgetting one of the foundations of Christianity, one that is well represented by Jesus. Love. We are all God's children. If nothing else, you know that they have been walking around probably for hours. If nothing else, invite them in and offer them something to drink and/or eat.
JW's aren't a cult. Neither are Muslums, Jews, etc. In the end we may call Him different names, but well all believe in God. It's a difference in what scripture we believe in, and how we interpret that scripture. I believe that they are loosing out on one of God's true blessings, Jesus and what He did for us, but I don't believe they will be shut out of Heaven for that. Having pictures of Jesus is not "idolatrous". You don't sit in your living room and worship the pictures of Jesus. The JW's try to compare the picutes of Jesus to idol worshipping just like you, and it doesn't fit.
I would suggest you actually look up some terminology before you try to use it.
syllogisms- logical argument involving three propositions: a formal deductive argument made up of a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion. An example is, "All birds have feathers, penguins are birds, therefore penguins have feathers."- deductive reasoning: reasoning from the general to the specificThis came from Encarta Dictionary.
So after all there was only one who died on the cross, and it was not "Mohammad,Krishna,Buddha,Shiva, or any other......But The Almighty Jesus Christ...saviour of the world, even Demons and the likes bow down and obey him.
Choose Jesus Christ
Matthew:11:28: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Luke:18:16: But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
God is calling you as I said earlier in the hub.....this is what he is telling you right now....
John:6:65: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
So its always your decision to choose life and Christ is the Life.
John:11:25: Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:John:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Willdawg
"You are forgetting one of the foundations of Christianity."
I am forgetting nothing, but it sounds like you are: "Hipocrites!!"; Nests of vipers!!"; "Sons of the Devil!!"; "Throats like open graves!!" All from the The Lord's lips when he rebuked the men of religion or the men of the Pharisaical Cult - IN LOVE.
Godly love is not syrrupy liberal Hollywood yuk that now permeates the spiritually ruined Cainite-Judeo-Christian Religion - mainstream Christianity.
2 John 1:9 (KJV) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Hath both the Father and The Son, a Duality Godhead, not the trinity abomination.
2 John 1:10-11 (KJV) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
I would heed this warning from God's Holy Word.
Any man who came to my house with the trinity doctrine and/or a doctrine that denied the Lord Jesus Christ as being always God with God for all eternity, would not be welcomed into my home and he would walk down my front path with steam coming out of his ears.
Any man made image of God is an idol by default and it can only be false (a lie) because you don't know what He looked like.
Re Syllogisms and Rome - the conclusion comes first, the premises afterwards.
You also know nothing about cults. All cults use fear as their major tactic to recruit their lemmings. Once fear is instilled into their thought processes they have DMC over them = Domination - Manipulation - Control - DeMoniC. All legalistic religions use this system which includes mainstream Christianity - get saved or you are going to Hell - a fear based cult.
Did someone mention God's love?
yes2truth: Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather FEAR HIM which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in HELL (geenna-Lake of Fire)." Now, since God is love, we are not to fear Him? Look up how many scriptures say to "fear God" as that of having respect. He is an awesome God!
Hi the woman in the picture looks a bit like me..... We get turned away all the time, and it does not matter, we only want to speak to people that want to speak to us, and whatever you do, is fine by us...............
Jehovah is actually spelt like this.....
Oh dear, oh dear, poor deluded Ms Bradshaw, who professes to know God and yet paints Him as a merciless evil tyrant.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell (geenna-Lake of Fire)."
Here, like all mainstream Christians, you jump to the erroneous conclusion that the 'him' here is God. Nowhere in this verse is God's name mentioned, so what does this tell us and reveal to us about your thinking? It's totally negative and fear based - in effect it reveals your indoctrination.
In worldly psychology they use the half filled glass of water and ask different people what they see and I think we know how you would answer don't we?
Notice the word DESTROY. There is only one destroyer - Satan the Devil. Destroyer is one of Satan's titles. God never destroys, He creates.
I am praying for and looking forward to your repentance Ms Bradshaw.
And I you, yes2truth.
Unfortunately Ms Bradshaw no one is listening to your prayers and thank you for confirming my previous comment to you with your tacit silence.
"Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, No man cometh unto the Father but by me" ( John 14:6)
"For God so loved the world that He gave his ONLY begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemned, but whosoever believeth not IS condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". (John 3:16-18)
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
I am new to Hubpages. As I read your posts, Carrie is the one I agree with most. "yes2truth", you are quite mixed up and sound almost like a satan worshipper posing as a christian "prophet". I am sorry if that offends you but your words betray your spirit. If what you believe doesn't agree with what the Word of God teaches clearly - then you are quite wrong and will be sadly disappointed on judgment day.
Jrosemond, if you are truly seeking to know the truth about Jesus Christ, I suggest you read the Word of God for yourself prayerfully asking the Holy Spirit to speak to your heart. With the exception of Carrie's comments and some of what Wildawg said, most of what has been posted here is in gross error as to what the Bible actually teaches.
"Religion" whether "christian" or not will never save anyone. There will be no baptist, catholics, presbyterians, methodists, episcopalians, etc. in Heaven. The only ones who will be there will be those who have had their sins cleansed in the blood of the Lamb. The question you need to answer is what am I going to do with Jesus? Will I believe the Word of God and trust Jesus to save me or am I going to believe what men tell me?
The answers which you seek are in only one place - the WORD of God. Read the Gospels ( Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) praying as you read asking God to show you the truth, HE will I promise you, HE will. When it is revealed, you and you alone must decide to believe it or not to believe it. I trust that you will choose to believe with all of your heart and trust Jesus.
What seems to be forgotten is that the scripture can read and interpreted different ways. The bible is supposed to be a guide to life. I don't believe it is meant for a preacher to stand before you and tell you exactly what it means and how you should live your life. You have to read and study the scripture yourself. You need to draw the meaning and the guidence that you are seeking, and using prayer to seek help from the real source, God.
I had someone at my work try to convince everyone that in order to get into heaven that you had to attend his church. Not even his denomination, his church. He tried to quote the scripture in regards to the one church. This is the type of non-sense that happens when scripture is taken too literally or taken to the extreme. This guys church had less then 100 members, so I tried to make a point to him and tell him if he is right then Heaven is going to be a very lonely place, but he was so wrapped up in what he believed that he didn't even get the point.
Brenda:
I believe that God put his only begotten son, Jesus, on this earth as token of his love and as a guide to help us achieve salvation; and I believe that not accepting Jesus for who He is, our Saviour, is denying oneself the greatest blessing that God bestoyed on us, I also believe that it is not for us to judge you or what you believe. Judgement is to be left up to God.
Contrary to what most conventional Christians believe, and contrary to my Catholic upbringing, I believe the one church is anyone who believes in God and is willing to repent and ask for forgiveness. I have pondered and prayed on this countless times, and I find it hard to believe that God will shun any of his children just because they grew up in a Muslim, or Jewish, or J.W., or Mormon family.
Yes2truth, if you believe this makes me a hipocrit or less of a Christian, gues what, I DON'T CARE. You are NOT GOD, your judgement means NOTHING. God speaks to me through prayer, and I have recieve the answers to my questions from Him.
Moneyman: you made a good point about the denominations, that a church is not going to save anyone, salvation can only be reached through ones heart.
Willdawg, Amen ~ God's shown me that we are to walk in grace (just this evening He's revealed this to me). When Jesus said on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", He was right. I've been treating all people like they "know" and are purposefully choosing to be in the dark. Think of how much we don't know and how God's grace is sufficient for us while we grow into the knowledge of Him. He is patient, and love is long-suffering. When we have spiritual eyes that see, others in the dark can't possibly see what we see, and therefore, we can't be defensive toward their behaviors.
Truly God judges one's motives. Hopefully, people will never shut off the learning experience, but mostly knowing that we must first ASK GOD (read His Word) for the answers, not merely go to man for the answers. Man falls sooooo short of the glory of God. I'm going to keep this wisdom not to hold someone accountable for what they think they know, but really don't know, because God keeps showing me how much more there is to know, though it never contradicts His truth. I plan to write a hub on this as He inspires.
Over the centuries, how many people have died in the name of religion. The Muslims fighting the Jews or the Christians, and the Catholics fighting the Protestants. Almost every religion believes that killing is wrong, so isn't killing someone in the name of God even worse? Killing someone because of a diference in interpretation over scriptures? The Bible, the Tora, and the Quaran are all put together by men. They all contain scriptures of Man's interpretation of God's word. If you follow one of these Holy books word for word, are you really following God or are you following another man. I consider myself a devoted Catholic, but I have family members who are J.W.'s and family members that are Mormons. I haven't ever been to a Kingdom Hall, but I frequently go to church with Mormon family members. I don't feel uncomfortable. I have a difference in beliefs. I don't believe in Joseph Smith and some of what they teach, but I don't feel uncomfortable going to church with them. If you don't focus on the differences and step back to look at the big picutres, the underlying principle behind the Mormon religion isn't different that the Catholics or the Protestants, etc. They have build a foundation of family values, and being a good person, all built around a love for God and for our Saviour, Jesus. Other than our belief in Jesus being our saviour, isn't that what all of the monotheism religions try to teach, a love for God and good moral values (I'm not counting religious extremists or cults)?
The most important question for all religions is, who is their "prophet"? If their prophet is anyone other than Jesus Christ, they are in danger of deception. Also, was their prophet God in the flesh? Divinely conceived? Sinless? Did he give his life for his people by paying the penalty for sin for them? No man is righteous enough for the One True God. This is what sets Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God in the flesh apart. Did any other prophet rise from the dead? If he didn't have the power to conquer death for himself, how can he conquer death for anyone? The confession Peter made to Jesus Christ is what the church, the true church is founded upon, the rock of faith and confession as to who Jesus is. Jesus, likewise, told Peter who he is. That's what that passage is all about. May God be praised.
I always laugh when mainstream Christians betray themselves with their handles i.e. Moneyman. So by default we know who their god is - Mammon no less.
Matt 6:24 (KJV) No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
With Willdawg we have a dog and that's what Paul called those who were not of the faith.
Phil 3:2 (KJV) Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Fascinating and all very interesting and especially with Moneyman sucking up to HubPages in-house blind guide, Ms Bradshaw.
I find it interesting that some teaching false doctrines use holy names for their profile handles. Yes2truth, it's not necessary to be so condenscending. It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil, not money itself. 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the LOVE of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." If money were evil, we wouldn't be giving it to flourish God's work.
All I can say is, in the same manner you judge others, especially the children of God, you shall be judged, saith the Lord. Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
yes2truth: There you go passing judgement again. Who do you think you are and why do you think you have a right to pass judgement on anyone. What you seem to miss is that the other religions don't serve another God. They may call Him Jehovah or Allah, but that it a language difference, they are still worshipping God. I do agree that they have been led astray. I believe that Jesus is our Savior and a blessing from God, and that He was put here to help us seek the straight and narrow path to salvation. However, it is not right to judge someone else because their beliefs are different. Does anyone actually believe that Muslims, Jews, etc. are going to be shut out of Heaven? I believe if I were to go around and judge others and condem someone because their religious beliefs are different than mine, then that would make me a hipocrit because I am not following the teachings that God has provided us with.
Yes2truth:
" Phil 3:2 (KJV) Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision."
You must beware of evil workers, but what I would like you to do is back away for a minute and really look at who is doing evil. Who are the REAL non-believers. Who is really following the meaning of the scriptures and who is using scripture to pass judgement. I am not going to answers these for you because this is for you to ponder.
Just so you know, the nickname Willdawg came from when I was a kid growing up in Cleveland. The spelling is dawg because it refers to the old Cleveland brown defense, the dawg pound.
Eventhough you call me a non-believer and a dog, I do not judge you. I do my best to live my life right and follow the teachings. I believe that this is what God wants from all of us. I would say this to anyone, open your heart and your soul, and let the Lord guide you down the straight and narrow path to salvation.Do not be led astray by hate, greed, or the opinions of other men. Everyone must face judgement one day, but they day will never take place on earth, because it is only God who can judge you. Love for God, your family, and for your fellow man will not only help you reach salvation but it will make you a better and happier person.
Hey Jrosemond:
You got a good discussion going, but we haven't heard from you in a while.
Willdawg
Coming to obvious conclusions is not judging and of course your last post only confirms what I have said, because you are defending religion and only the dogs of religion do that. The word religion originates from Legion the multiple faceted demon mentioned in the Holy Scriptures:
Mark 5:9 (KJV) And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
Legion now occupies himself under his new banner - Re-Legion now slightly modified to religion with the word MANY still being the operative word. Many Re-Legions and even many more deluded and deceived lemmings clamouring after them
Following The Lord Jesus Christ is not religion, nor did He come to this earth in order to start a religion. Only men invent religions at the Devil's behest!
The Christian Re-legion is just another religion doing the Devil's will.
yes2truth, Where in the world did you get that philosophy about Legion and religion? That's like saying truth is associated with untruthful because the same word is in both. Ridiculous! You have your own "religion", for sure.
Willdawg, you are starting to sound like a Universalist, that all roads that worship "god" are worshiping "God". If you are a Bible-believing follower of Christ, Jesus said he is the only way to the Father. There is no other way.
John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
Any doctrine that worships "god" without the Son, is worshiping in vain. This would include Jews, JW's and Mormons, that don't believe Jesus IS God, their Messiah. There are others who twist the Word of God, like yes2truth, in that they believe salvation comes to all through judgment of a spiritual lake of fire, even after physical death. This dangerous doctrine believes even Satan and his angels will be saved.
2 Peter 3:16 "He [Paul] writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
I think you guys are missing my point. Too many people get wrapped up in the details of the lessons and don't really understand and follow the lessons. I believe the road to salvation is through Jesus Christ. However, I will not say that people that don't believe in Jesus are dammed to Hell. How am I to know that? If I am not able to understand everything wordly, then how am I to understand things Holy. I think that our time on earth is similar to our time in school as a child. There is so much more that is learned after we pass on to adult hood. I believe there is so much more to be learned once we leave this form on earth and pass on to Heaven, we just have to achieve a certain level of salvation to have the right to pass on to Heaven. We don't know everything and we are not supposed to know everything.
There is nothing un-Holy or evil about not condeming somone because they don't believe in Jesus. The truth is that I don't have a complete understanding of most of the other religions. I have taken the time to get a basic understanding of some of the other religions. I have even read parts of the Quaran. All this has done is strenghen my beliefs and my faith. If you are afraid of listening to other people's beliefs or trying to understand other people's beliefs, then how strong are your beliefs? It works like any other belief or opinion. If you listen to someone elses opinion, it should do one of two things. It will make you change your opinion or it will make your opinion stronger. I think that a true believer/devoted Catholic is able to resist the temptation to judge others or shun others because of their beliefs. We are not supposed to shove our beliefs onto someone else. We are supposed to testify as to how Jesus and God have changed our lives for the better. This is how we spread God's love, and this is how we spread the word.
Willdawg, when we are satisfied with our own salvation, it is selfish to not be concerned for others and their salvation. No slinging back and forth in some competition, but it's genuine love and urgency for some faiths, such as mine. The Bible I live by teaches man doesn't have a second chance after death, and that we are immediately in heaven or hell upon death. Because I care, I want to be sure I have said everything I can to that person to help them. No one is promised tomorrow! I want them to go to heaven and know Jesus as their Lord and Savior, for the reasons I posted above (the scriptures). Taking our time to just mosey along the road and hope people somehow find their way, seems a bit careless for their salvation. You might think you have tomorrow, but I never know! I love you and I love the people I share the gospel with. If I didn't, I'd not be able to bear the attacks that come from them. I go after awhile, but at least I have a clear conscience that I tried. God bless everyone, really.
God works in mysterious ways. I had someone I worked with for quite awhile that asked to talk to me one day. He had said that he hadn't really talk much about my beliefs, but for some odd reason he felt comfortable talking to me. He was raised as a Southern Baptists and really didn't believe in what was being forced on him and he lost his way. I talked to him about how I found my way back to the church and to Jesus. We also talked about how the King James Version of the Bible isn't the only version. How the bible was re-translated/re-written because he didn't like the power and control of the Catholic Church. Long story short, I ended up going out and buying him a copy of the NAB, and we had many discussions about scripture and life. The one thing that kept him coming back to talk to me was the fact that I kept reminding him, that he needed to read the scripture for himself. Let the scripture talk to him in a way that he understands it, and that if he has questions, use the power of prayer. If you use prayer, the answers you seek will come to you. He ended up moving out of state a month or so later, but he was well on his way to finding his way back. It wasn't because I preached to him, it wasn't because I was telling him what to believe. I told him how accepting Jesus helped me get my life back on track, and I lent him an open, unjudgemental ear. I believe that God sent him to me because he needed someone whose faith is strong and who's love of God goes much deeper than standing in front of other people and quoting scripture. It also strengthed my faith as well, because I believe that way this went down could only have been the work of God.
Carrie: I just wanted to let you know that Mormons do believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah and our savior. They actually believe that when Jesus rose again, that he wasn't just seen in the Middle East, he was seen all over the world. The Mormons teach from the Bible just as we do. They just believe that some of the doctrines were lost at the time the Catholic Church put together the Bible. I have a copy of the Book of Mormon and some of their other teachings on my book shelf, because I do occassionally go to church with some of my family that are Mormons. I have read quite a bit of the book of Mormon, and most of the teachins really aren't that different from the New Testament. I never really bought into the whole Joseph Smith thing, and if you eliminate this, their teachings are actually closer to Caholic teachings that are many of the other Christian denominations, such as Baptist, Methodist, etc. The only real difference between the two is that the Catholics teach that the keys/right to baptism past from Jesus to his appostle Peter, who later became St. Peter, the first Pope, and the keys to Baptism passed from Pope to Pope through the ages. The Mormons believe that keys/rights to baptism was lost with the death of Jesus, and that the years following were the Dark Ages, until the 1800's when an Angle desended from Heaven to return the keys to Baptism back to earth. The Mormon missionaries and I have had has this discussion back and forth, because I believe that keys to Baptism remained with the Catholic Church through St. Peter. I even had several of the missionaries saying that I could be right. I have met quite a few people that have either moved from the Mormon Church to the Catholic church or vice versa. I still believe that the Catholic Church is the truest of the Churches because of the direct link to Jesus, and almost every other church is still young (less than 250years) and all branched off of the Catholic Church. This isn't meant to critique anything you said, but I have a preaty good understanding of the Latter Day Saints, and just wanted to pass along some information to you.
I don't like anyone ringing my doorbell, not even my momma.
After all the arguments on your hub, I hope you were able to find the correct info I gave you
Just out of curiosity, has anyone made sense of anything yes2truth is saying. I pulled this off of his/her profile:
"Second, my job is to rescue True Believers or True sons and daughters of God from the clutches of the wretched and blasphemous Cainite-Judeo-Christian Religion in all its guises."
If he/she is so against religion, then why keep quoting from the Bible. The Bible was assembled by the Catholic Church. It was a religous organization that came together to decide which Cannons were going to be included.
I'm not trying to be mean or judgemental, I am just sitting here completely dumbfounded. Although I don't let other people opinions really influence my life, I do listen to people with an open ear (or open eyes in this situation) because they might have something profound to say. I am usually pretty good at figuring out a persons objectives or where they are coming from, but I can't make heads or tails of what yes2truth's points are. If someone is making any sense of it, please enlighten me.
popintervention:
I work nights and I got woke up this morning by J.W.'s ringing my doorbell early this morning. I wasn't mean or rude. I politely explained to them that our neighborhood is almost entirely working class and about the only ones at home right now are those of us that work nights and are asleep. They were very apologetic, but I think everyone needs to understand the right and wrong time/way to approach people, especially about something as personal as religion. Maybe instead of rinding doorbells, walk through the neighborhood and approach people that they see. I have to admit, eventhough I will usually at least offer them something to drink even if I don't have time to talk, getting woke up early in the morning did get me a little ticked off.
Unfortunately, it's their leaders who put them up to this task of "earning" their way to a greater reward, but consideration and loving others go hand-in-hand in this case? ~ Hope you're asleep right now, as it's 12:03 A.M. and I just finished a new hub! Good night, sleep tight and rest well all!
I just took the time to review all the different points of view here and i am so glad everyone took the time to back up what he/she were saying with something worth value...i know you all put a lot of thought instead of just writing something to just have to say and i appreciate that. I will take all these ideas and do my best to figure the truth of this subject.
good for you.......
I used to be a Jehovah's Witness. I have to say the whole religion is a farce. If you make a mistake or what they call "sinned" no one talks to you or has anything to do with you. They are a judgemental bunch of people who do not read the bible correctly in my eyes. The bible strictly says not to judge and when they so call dis-fellowship you that is exactly what they are doing. Two of my sisters are Jehovah's witnesses. When they start to talking to me about their religion, I shut them down quickly. Because I was there and I don't ever want to hear it again. If they don't want to talk to me anymore they can have a nice life. I am not going to disrespect people that come to my door, even Jehovah's witnesses. I tell them politely that I am not interested and if they are persistent I firmly tell them, I am not interested in a very strict tone. Some of their views on holidays are utterly ridiculous. Birthday and Christmas for one. You know why they don't celebrate those days. They don't celebrate birthdays because John the Baptist was beheaded on some one's birthday. And Christmas was mixed with another holiday that has to do with the man Chris Kringle and the giving of toys. I thought giving was what it was all about??! I read the all the information about Christmas and birthdays. I don't see anything sacraligious about those two holidays which they call Pagan holidays. But they do. They are one minded in their thinking and most of them have not read that whole bible. At least the ones that come a knocking..Some of the poor kids of this religion feel trapped because they don't agree with all of the nonsense go along with it because they don't want their parents to stop talking to them. But for some of them, as soon as they are 18 they are gone like the wind. The Jehovah's Witness feel that they are they only true religion and the funny thing is they don't even study any of the others to say that. I am very Christian myself. I have tried many religions and the only that makes sense to me is the Christian one. My advice to anyone considering joinging them is to not do it. If you are looking for a faith at least do a little research before you join one. That is for any religion or faith. It maybe your couple of tea. Wasn't mine though and I didn't care if they stop talking to me. I welcome the peace. That my take...
and of course you are welcome to that as we all are......
thank you so much for your view Jtboswell I see that seems to be the case for a lot of young JWs i run into...they seem to do it for the fam...interesting to say the least
JTBoswell:
I don't know if this had something to do with their beliefs or not, but Dec. 25th was a Pagen holiday, something to do with the winter soltice or winter celebration. They are the ones who actually brought the trees inside. The Catholic Church that the best way to eliminate the Pagen celebrations was to turn Dec 25th into a Christian Holiday. Although we know that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th, this is the date that was chosen to celebrate his birth. The church started putting apples on the tree to symbolize the forbidden fruit on the Tree of Knowledge. I doubt this has anything to do with their beliefs on Christmas, but it is something that many Christians, especially non-Catholics are not aware of. My guess is that not celebrating Christmas has to do with their belief the Jesus is the son of God in the sense that we are all God's children.
I have family that are J.W.'s and they have told me things that I find disturbing, like if there is a disagreement with what a scripture means, nobody in the Hall leaves until they all walk out with a uniform belief. What is wrong with people reading the scripture and taking away a slightly different meaning. Beside being judgemental, another big issue I see is that it seems as if they decide what they want to teach or believe and then go searching for some passage to justify it, and most times this leads them to take scripture completely out of context. I talked about this more in one of my earlier comments.
Smaller thoughts about the J.W.;s: Why do they feel the need to make their own Bible and change all of the references to God with Jehovah. Why can't you go to the book store and buy a copy of the Jehovah Witness Bible. You can buy almost any other version of the Bible, the Tora, the Quaran. Why are people not allowed to visit the Kingdom Hall before they convert. This is about the only church that I know of that doesn't allow non-members to visit. Churches are supposed to encourage people to attend, not shun them out. No one has ever been able to answer these questions, it's always that is the way it is so that is the way it is. I would love to have a Jehovah Witness answer some of these questions in an open, honest, and non-defensive manner.
JWs are misguided by the watchtower, I had a long chat with one of them once, asked him some tough questons,he coulden't handle it really,they irritate me honestly but 'm not rude to them, they remind me of a muslim trying to go on outreach,very stubborn and brainwashed to a certain extent. We always have to have an open mind. Here is some help when dealing with them, John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14, also John 1 verse 1 and 14. 1John 5:7 (Trinity) Hope its a blessing to you guys. Remember their bible is translated by the watchtower so its been altered suite their beliefs so always use your bible. And Nobody don't be quiet, fight back, stand up for the truth that you have found in Jesus Christ!! Preach right back to them!
AMEN (meaning "this is the truth" and "so be it"), Nigel!!
"yes2truth, Where in the world did you get that philosophy about Legion and religion? That's like saying truth is associated with untruthful because the same word is in both. Ridiculous! You have your own "religion", for sure."
Now this statement is very revealing on three counts - A TRINITY of counts no less, how appropriate is that!!??
The first revelation reveals that Ms Bradshaw is devoid of the Holy Spirit.
The second revelation reveals that she is a woman of philosophy alone.
The third revelation reveals that she is using pure intellectualism to reason away what I have said.
QED as they say in lost and unsaved intellectual establishments.
yes2truth and everyone here that wishes to get educated on the "trinity" or "triune" God (who is ONE), I've written a hub on it called "Heavenly Math: The Trinity Explained". I'll recap the basics here. The following definitions of the word God and the name Jesus are typed here exactly as they appear in the Hebrew and Greek dictionaries (all perentheses are theirs, not mine):
God: elohiym (el-o-heem’); PLURAL of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plural, thus especially with the article “the”) of the supreme God.
Jesus: Iesous (ee-ay-sooce') meaning Jehoshua, the name of our Lord AND TWO (THREE); same as Hebrew Yehowshuwa meaning Jehovah saved.
God is Spirit and revealed Himself in clouds, fire and so forth in the Old Testament. Jesus is God in the flesh, yet God is Spirit and therefore is omnipresent. Jesus as a man prayed to God as we do, though He was God in the flesh. He was both God and Man; Son of God; Son of Man. When Jesus was resurrected and ascended into the heavens, He sent God in Spirit, the Holy Spirit who could now dwell in us because we are made righteous when we believe in Jesus Christ. God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are One God.
The word "one", taken from the Hebrew and Greek dictionary is as follows:
1 Cor 8:4: “…there is no God but one.”
The word “one” is the Greek word heis (as in one another) and is reflected in 1 Corinthians 6:16, which states that the husband and wife are “no longer two, but one”. This word “one” is the Greek word mia, the feminine of heis.
God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not three separate persons, but are one in unity = three is one, triune, tri (3) nity (of unity).
yes2truth, I will no longer respond to your comments. I've shared the truth here, and I invite anyone who would like to read my hubs to come and join me! I only commented on this to help others who are seeking. Amen.
Ms Bradshaw, you are a complete stranger to The Truth, and as I said, devoid of the Holy Spirit and thereby not able to understand spiritual things.
RELIGION IS A SPIRIT, AN EVIL SPIRIT and that is why I used the name of the MANY faceted demon called Legion to explain what is happening today and what has happened throughout history. Legion is the very same spirit that GOVERNS and deceives people of all religions hence Re-Legion.
All he did was RE-invent himself after the death and resurrection of The Lord Jesus Christ and set up, through human agents, the Christian Religion. A prime example being demon possessed people like Simon Magus, the sorcerer, who founded the Christian Religion in Rome in the first century. He did this in order to attack the True Church and at the same time give The Lord Jesus Christ a bad name through all the activities of his counterfeit church.
From his satanic foundation with its origins from Babylon the counterfeit church became Rome in the west versus Eastern Orthodoxy in the east; the backers and organisers of the Crusades; The Spanish Inquisition; Protestantism versus Catholicism e.g. Bloody Mary versus Elizabeth I; The Papal instigated butchering of the French Huguenots; Protestant denominations galore or real name DIVISIONS (Demon-inations - all the characteristics of Legion on display here); The Jesuits upon which Hitler based his Gestapo; The Papist backed IRA. All of this is Re-Legion's handiwork and it is nothing to do with Lord Jesus Christ.
This Legion also worked through numerous people, mostly in second century Alexandria in Egypt, and commonly called the "Church Fathers". One of these blaspheming dogs was named Tertullian circa 200 AD who conjured up (more sorcery) the trinity lie.
Finally 1 Cor 8:4: “…there is no God but one.”
There is no God (The Greeks authors had to use the plural Elohim from the OT). God from the Greek = Deity. Greek deities could be any number of gods. This verse therefore should read there is no Godhead but one i.e. the Godhead Duality of The Father and The Son.
Just so yes2truth doesn't start confusing anyone else, the term Godhead refers to the Holy Trinity. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make up the Godhead. God is 3 distinct entities. None of the 3 were ever created and all are omnipotent and equal. Jesus, the Son, had 2 different forms, His Holy form in Heaven and the human form He took while on earth. It is His Holy form in Heaven that makes up part of the Holy Trinity. Heaven consists of 3 different levels/areas (please forgive me I don't recall all 3 names off the top of my head), the inner level for the most devoted is where the Father is, the next level is the location of the Son, and the last level is the location of the Holy Spirit. All of the other souls go to Hell, or a location not visited by God (the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit). Some of the denominations who broke away from the Church who try to teach people to believe in God through fear, will talk about a fiery Hell. I'm not going to get into details on these other denominations, like the Baptists, Methodist, etc., because I am not really sure on how they teach the Holy Trinity.
I was reading back through what I wrote, and I wasn't sure if it was exactly clear:
God is in 3 disctinct forms that all share the same substance, therefore there is only 1 God. It is difficult for many people to understand, but remember God is able to be everywhere at once. This is a Holy concept that we are not capable of understanding, nor meant to understand.
Old Willdawg is barking Tertullian's corruption of The Holy Word of God.
Would you mind quoting a Holy Scripture that supports your blasphemous statement that God is "three distinct forms"? Your words not mine.
Please don't use 1 John 5:7-8 as that is yet another corruption added to the Latin Vulgate Bible by Jerome and later translated into our English Bibles. These verses are not to be found in the original Greek MSS.
Would you also tell everyone why the Lord Jesus Christ sits at The Father's right hand in heaven with no mention of the Holy Spirit?
Can you also explain why Paul greets ALL the churches in the name of the Father and the Son, but doesn't include the Holy Spirit?
Your answers on the back of a postage stamp, please.
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Luke 3: 21-22 21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
These two verses seem to indicate that there is a trinity. Of course, what, for all I know these verses were probably never in the "original" Bible. But, if they were, why would Jesus tell his disciples to make disciples of all nations, and to baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
If the Holy Spirit isn't as important as some say, then why did Jesus tell them to 'Baptize them in the name of the Holy Spirit' as well as in the name of the Father and the Son.
Then Luke, chapter 3. To the trinity believers, God is depicted in three forms. 1. Jesus on earth being baptized. 2. The Holy Spirit descending down from Heaven like a dove 3. God the Father speaking from Heaven.
I haven't seen how the trinity deniers take this verse into consideration. But, I would like to know.
The Holy Spirit is the power of God (Acts 1:8) "But you will receive POWER when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
We see that yes2truth and those of that false doctrine deny the Holy Spirit as being God. Therefore, they fall under the category of 2 Timothy 3:5 "having a form of godliness but DENYING ITS POWER. Have nothing to do with them."
This is why I have nothing to do with yes2truth, nor should anyone that is seeking the true Godliness of the Bible. The true believers receive the fulness of the Godhead: The Father, the Son and THE HOLY SPIRIT = One True God. Amen.
I wasn't even going to waste my time responding to yes2truth. I was trying to make sure that someone else reading these comments weren't being led astray. Thanks for pulling out the scriptures for other people to reference, so that they can make an informed decision on who is speaking the truth, and who is using the scripture to decieve and corrupt.
Have you ever thought about why they call a land covered with ice and snow Greenland. Wasn't it to decieve people into thinking that it was different than it really is? Have you ever thought about why somone would put the word "truth" in their name. Would it be to decieve someone into thinking that they actually spoke the truth?
Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever seen someone try to use the Bible to discredit the Holy Trinity? Is there anyone that actually thinks that they are capable of fully understanding the Holy Trinity? Can you even fathom the ability to be everywhere at the same time and understand everything?
God created us in His image, and yet we only use 10% of our human brains to understand our infinite God! He is AWESOME and His wisdom is in His words and we abide (live) by them, for they are His very lifeblood! Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
My name is that of a "sinner's icon" and yet when God revivied my heart, soul and mind, I continue now to spread the gospel, knowing I am a sinner saved by His grace and He alone is Worthy and is Holy, Hallelujiah!
I thought you weren't going to answer my comments anymore Ms Bradshaw? The Lord said to let your nay be nay and your yea be yea!!
The Holy Spirit is the Power of God, absolutely, and nowhere have I said that it is not. What I am saying is that it is not a personage of a blasphemous triune god. The Holy Spirit is an 'it' not a 'he'.
In answer to Sanctus Versania and with regard to Matthew 28:19 you are right to have a questioning view of that verse because again it is a corruption.
Matthew 28:19 flies in the face of the Holy Scriptures below that state quite clearly that we should be baptised into The Lord's name alone.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of youin the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:15-17 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:5-6 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as werebaptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christhave put on Christ.
Eusebius a declared trinitarian c 270 AD had eighteen citations of Matthew 28:19 all of which read "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you." No trinity.
There is also a Hebrew translation of Matthew's gospel which excludes the trinity wording.
From the Catholic Encyclopaedia Volume 2 page 263. Here the Roman Catholic authors acknowledged that the baptismal formula was changed by their organisation.
And the Christian Religious blasphemies just keep on coming!
I need to state that I am taking nobodies side in this entire thing. But here's a question for Yes2Truth.
Who is Wisdom?
Read, Proverbs chapters 8 and 9. We have Wisdom and SHE is personified as FEMALE. In chapter 8, Wisdom is speaking; and in chapter 9 she is depicted as performing actions.
Proverbs chapter 8: 22-23 22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Proverbs 8: 30-31 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
We can see that Wisdom was the first of God's creations, and was made before the creation of the world. We can also see that Wisdom was the craftsman at God's side.
So, who is Wisdom?
A: Wisdom is Jesus Christ. Which, doesn't make much sense, because Jesus was/is male; and is known as the word/logos. Logos is masculine. Wisdom is feminine. B: Wisdom is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is female. C: Wisdom is the long lost fourth piece of the Godhead. (Now if only we could find the third...)
I go with B. And that is the reason why I say that I take nobodies side in this silly little debate.
"Is there anyone that actually thinks that they are capable of fully understanding the Holy Trinity?"
No, of course they can't, because it doesn't exist in the Holy Scriptures. It's a sorcerers conjuring trick like the shell game. Now you see it, now you don't. Hang on, it was there a minute ago and now its gone - abracadabra!!!!!!
How you silly people can believe in something that was not in the original Greek MSS but added by people who sold salvation for gold and silver, beats me.
Come on Willdawg I am still waiting for your Biblical explanations of the trinity lie.
Perhaps I should come back tomorrow or maybe next week for your revelations!!
*sighs* Blast my curiosity. So, yes2truth, when you say that Matthew 28:19 is "a corruption" are you stating that the verse itself should not even be in the Bible, or that man has corrupted that verse? If it is the latter, I would like to know what that verse is really supposed to mean.
Also, why is it that blasphemy against God the Father, and God the Son is forgiveable, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not?
Sanctus Vesania,
It is late here so I will come back to you tomorrow with the answers to your questions.
ALL sins are forgiveable but the length of time for punishment for blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is a lot longer. As I said I will explain tomorrow.
Alright, I can see your point about what Matthew 28:19 originally said.
But, are you really expecting me to believe that it was the Queen of Sheba who was among the first of God's creations/created before the world was made. Am I supposed to believe that the queen of Sheba was the craftsman at God's side.
That doesn't make any sense.
Apparently the author is Solomon, Agur son Jakeh, Lemuel, or unknown.
Hey sanctus
you have to be patient with yes2truth. He made some statements, now he is going to be up all night digging for some passage to try to justify what he said. This is exactly what I keep saying about a lot of the people that you always hear quoting scripture (not all of them). They're always digging for some scripture to justify their position, and the real problem with this is that the scripture that they quote is taken completely out of context or used incorrectly or means something completely different. It's like a scientist that draws a conclusion and then tries to make the experiment fit his conclusion. It's backwards and it doesn't work. Not to mention, Lucifer can stand before you and quote scripture. Obviously you dont want to follow his explanation of it. The ability to quote scripture DOES NOT make you a good Christian. Devotion to God, and living your life the way God intended you too makes you a good Christian.
Oh, I do have patience.
Two unfortunate points though.
1. Anyone can use scripture to back up their points, and claim it's from God. If I wanted to, I could use scripture to say why we should burn down fig trees, and how this is a message from God (Forgetting how illogical, and stupid that sounds.)
2. If someone doesn't agree with something they can say that it comes from Satan (and not Lucifer. Lucifer is a false name, and a careful study of the scriptures will reveal this.)
I personally think the comments are starting to spill outside that of this hub's contents. Doctrinal arguments are only causing dissention, which is not drawing people to the gospel of grace. I'm also guilty of this, and I pray God's grace and peace to all ~~
Sanctus:
The comment about patience had nothing to do with you. It was a sarcastic remark. I was saying that the reason yes2truth was going to wait to answer your question, is that he was going to have to take some time to try to dig out scripture to try to back up what he was saying. Point 1 is exactly the point that I was making. The comment about Satan refered back to anyone being able to quote scripture, including Satan. I wasn't saying anyone's comments came from Satan. To do so would be judgemental, and if you read my comments, I try very hard not to be judgemental,
For a group of people that believe in the teachings of Jesus - you all seem mean spirited to each other. Sounds like you have decided the one who can debate the subject the loudest, or provide the best quotes is the winner. The spectators sitting on the sidelines find your display of love toward each other quite comforting.
I feel sorry for all the people out their that haven't been saved by you guys showing them the way - Gotta go now and ring the Dalia Lama - he might just have time to pop in here and find out he has been following a false prophet.
Cheers - and keep up the good fight. :)
2 Timothy 4:6 "You are a good servant of Christ Jesus when you point these things out to our brothers and sisters. Then you will be nourished by the words of the Christian faith and the excellent teachings which you have followed closely."
2 Timothy 4:7 "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:"
I know that some issues will rise when beliefs are concerned! The thing is do we as people research the statements coming forth? JW's are only human they are not perfect! They fall short like everyone else! But the beliefs that they have are not to far from what Christians believe! We need to find our truth by doing research! This is in anything we do in life! Don't just take in a few words and say okay it sounds good but dig deep and look up scriptures, do research and get your own thoughts on what is being said. Don't just follow any man's thinking but the word of God!
After doing some research this is what I've learned!
Anyone not doing their research can become confused on essential Christian doctrine! As for the Trinity please did you do your research on this as well? Or do you just tell your followers to do as you say and they really don't have to get deep?When it came to the first century Jews not expecting the Messiah to die, Jesus worked very hard to correct that misunderstanding, teaching over and over that he must die (Matt. 16:21, 17:9, 20:19 and 28, 26:2, 12 and 27-32). But there is not one single account of Jesus correcting anyone’s belief that he was a fully human Messiah. Never did he say he was part of the Trinity, or that a person had to believe in the Trinity to be saved. Furthermore, the first century Jews believed that “the Spirit of God” or “the Holy Spirit” was not a separate Person in the Trinity, but was another name for God, just as Yahweh, Elohim, or El Shaddai, were other names for the one true God. When Genesis 1:2 mentions “the Spirit of God,” Jews correctly believed it was another name for God or a reference to His invisible power at work. Yet there is no record of Jesus ever trying to “correct” them and show that the Holy Spirit was a third Person in the Trinity. That is very solid evidence that they did not have to believe in the Trinity to be saved.
If Jesus had taught that a person had to believe in the Trinity to be saved, the perfect time for him to have done so would have been when a young man came to him and asked, “…Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” (Matt. 19:16). If this young man had to believe in the Trinity to be saved, this was the time to say so. Instead, Jesus said, “…If you want to enter life, obey the commandments” (Matt. 19:17). Jesus further instructed the man that if he wanted to be “perfect” (which Mark 10:21 equates as having treasure in heaven) he should sell his worldly possessions and follow him (Matt. 19:21). Jesus never said to the man that belief in any aspect of the Trinity was necessary for salvation.
Another time Jesus could have easily taught the Trinity, or even that he was God, was when he traveled through Samaria, the district north of Jerusalem and south of Galilee. The Samaritans were not Jews, but foreigners who had been brought into the area and had adopted some parts of the Jewish religion. The Jews regarded them as horrible pagans and pretenders, and had nothing to do with them. When Jesus met the woman at the well in Samaria, she said she knew the Messiah was coming (John 4:25). However, her understanding of the Messiah would have come from the Old Testament and what her tradition taught, so when Jesus said, “…I who speak to you am he” (John 4:26), she never would have concluded that he was somehow God, or part of a Triune God. If she needed to believe that to be saved, Jesus would have taught it to her, as well as to the people from Samaria who came to meet him after the woman told them about him (John 4:41). However, there is no hint in Scripture he ever mentioned the Trinity. Did he ignore their need for salvation? Of course not. What is evident from this record is that a person did not have to believe in the Trinity to be saved.
Another example of a person being saved without believing in the Trinity is the immoral woman who anointed Jesus’ feet with her tears while he was eating. All Jesus said to her was, “…Your sins are forgiven” and “…Your faith has saved you; go in peace” (Luke 7:48 and 50). Are we to believe that somehow this Galilean Jewess knew that Jesus was part of a Triune God, and by knowing that she gained salvation? Such an assumption would be to stretch the record beyond credible limits. The woman was a sinner, not a theologian, and if she went to synagogue at all, which is questionable, she would have known about the Messiah only from what the Old Testament taught. There is no reason to believe that she somehow pasted together statements Jesus had made to build a case for the Trinity, and then believed it. She, like millions of Old Testament believers before her, was saved without believing in the Trinity.
Theologians build the doctrine of the Trinity with verses pulled from all over the Bible, but only a few actually spoken by Jesus can even be used to support it, and none of those mention “the Holy Spirit” in any decisive sense as being a distinct “Person.” [5] Furthermore, each statement Jesus made that modern Trinitarians use to paste together their case for a Trinity has an alternative, non-Trinitarian explanation. This is important, because although a person who already believes in the Trinity might think that what Jesus said supported the doctrine of the Trinity, someone who never heard of the Trinity would understand what Jesus said in a totally different way.
A good example of this was when Jesus said, “…if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins” (John 8:24). Some Trinitarians see this statement as supporting the Trinity, but someone who did not know that doctrine would understand the statement in light of what he knew and believed, especially if what Jesus said made sense in terms of the beliefs he already held. In the case of John 8:24, the Jews he was speaking to were expecting a human Messiah and that people who rejected him would die in their sins. What Jesus said fit their understanding perfectly. Jesus had to have known that, so if he was trying to say that anyone who did not believe in the Trinity was unsaved, he did a poor job of making his point. He certainly never stated that if someone does not believe in the Trinity, he would die in his sins.
If a person did need to believe in the Trinity to be saved, we would expect that Jesus would have been at least as aggressive in teaching that as he was about correcting other erroneous beliefs of his day. For example, we mentioned earlier that Jesus plainly taught his disciples that he had to die, even though they were not expecting it. He also corrected the Sadducees concerning the resurrection very plainly, telling them, “You are in error” (Matt. 22:29). Time after time he openly corrected the errors believed by the people around him. In the Sermon on the Mount he corrected many erroneous teachings, including the people’s misunderstanding about love, revenge, adultery, divorce, and anger, often saying, “You have heard that it was said…But I tell you…” (Matt. 5:21-44). But never in that important teaching that spans three entire chapters in Matthew does he correct their ideas about him being a real human being, or teach them about the Trinity, which he would have were it necessary to believe that to be saved. After all, which is the more important theological mistake, being wrong about anger, or taking an oath, or praying in public, or being wrong about the true nature of God?
If the Trinity were a true doctrine, and especially if a person has to believe it to be saved, we would have expected Jesus to say something in the Sermon on the Mount such as this:
“You have heard that it was said” that God is One, “but I tell you” that God is a Trinity, one God made of three distinct Persons. [6] “You have heard that it was said” that the Messiah will be one from among you, “but I tell you” he will be more than that, he will be God incarnated in human flesh. “You have heard that it was said” that the holy spirit is the invisible spirit power of God, “but I tell you” that Holy Spirit is much more than that, he is the third Person in a Triune Godhead.”
Are we to believe that Jesus openly and plain
lashaemrey58, I am responding because God tells us to share the gospel, and so I shall. Did you not read the Bible study of the "trinity" above? You say people don't study? Read some of my hubs. Have you looked up what Elohiym means? Or the name Jesus for that matter? (see information in above comments). God is not three PERSONS, as you state, confirmed in the study above.
Do you believe Jesus was God in the flesh? If not, you are of the "false prophets" and are subject to the very scripture you quoted, "Jesus said, “…if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins” (John 8:24)". Check out (in the Bible itself) the following scriptures to show you Jesus is Jehovah: John 1:23 prophesying from Isaiah 40:3.
Regarding the commandments, we have only two in the new covenant, which is through the blood of Jesus. Only God can make that covenant, made with us through Jesus ("This is the new covenant in My blood" Mat 26:28). He is the High Priest, King of kings and Lord of lords, at whose Name every knee will bow. Isaiah 9:6 prophesies of Jesus' birth stating, "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
Jesus only told the rich man to sell everything because his wealth was his god. He had kept all the commandments, yet was not without sin. Therefore, keeping the commandments doesn't save, as you stated. Jesus forgave sins and did not reveal His identity because the Word says in 1 Corinthians 2:8 "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." Yet, the Jews killed Jesus and mocked Him because they said He blasphemed by claiming to be God. Praise God, His will was accomplished.
As far as God (Jesus) being a man, He was and called Himself the Son of Man. If you believe in the virgin birth and that He indeed was conceived by God (the Holy Spirit that overshadowed Mary), then He was also fully God, the Son of God. In Him dwelt the fulness of the Godhead bodily. If you don't then the Watchtower or some other material must be influencing you.
For you to separate Jesus from God as just a man, His death and resurrection was in vain, for no man can forgive sins or be the perfect sacrifice for our sins, because all men are born into sin since Adam. Even the Jews said only God could forgive sins! There is no way to the Father except through the Son, God in the flesh. And if you only acknowledge the Father and the Son and don't accept the power of the the Holy Spirit, God in us, you have denied the power, therefore only have the "form of godliness".
So, I challenge you to read the Bible without any outside "study sources", other than that of the Hebrew and Greek dictionaries so you can literally know what is written. I have said a prayer for you, and you are welcome to email me if you are truly open to learning more ~ using only the Bible.
Sanctus Versania,
Having read Proverbs 7, 8 and 9 I fail to see how these verses are anything to do with the Holy Spirit being a personage of a triune deity. I only mentioned the Queen of Sheba because she had travelled many miles to visit Solomon due to what she had heard about his wisdom.
There are two women, as well, not one. One is likened to Solomon's sister (wisdom) and the other is the (unwise) harlot.
Wisdom is as eternal as God Himself, for Solomon had God's wisdom.
I notice to that Willdawg is still yap yap yapping, but still has not given us any Biblical evidence for his fallacious trinity beliefs.
Which translation are you reading?
I only ask, because Wisdom is personified as a woman calling out to people. Folly/Stupidity is also personified as a woman, as you said, "harlot". Further more, Wisdom 'herself' states that she was the craftsman at God's side.
Now I have read that Wisdom is supposed to be Jesus Christ, but Jesus is called the Word (logos). Wisdom (sophia) is a feminine word, while Logos is masculine.
There is one thing that I have noticed about the scriptures concerning the Holy Spirit. While there is no doubt (in my mind) that the Holy Spirit has a personality, there is little proof that the Holy Spirit is actually a 'person'. The biggest argument I've seen, is that "the Holy Spirit has a personality, so it MUST be a person!"
My dog has a personality. (And before any of you gets all upset, note that I NEVER said that the Holy Spirit is a dog.)
Furthermore several times, the Holy Spirit is depicted as fire, water, and as a dove.
In fact, I've come to notice something about the Trinity depicted in art. If the Holy Spirit is a person, then why is it ALWAYS depicted as either a dove, or a flame? There are very few paintings where the Holy Spirit is depicted as a person. (This goes out to Willdawg)
Sanctus Vesania,
I am reading the King James Bible and the use of women here is very much a King Solomon thing, for he had a thing for women - hundreds of wives and even more concubines and most of which came with their own 'baggage' i.e. their pagan deities and idols. To say that women were his weakness and his downfall would be the understatement to end all understatements!!!!!
I would like to know where it says that the Holy Spirit has a personality and I will check it out to see if it is so, like the Bereans.
If the Holy Spirit is a personage of a triune god why does Paul not greet ALL the churches in 'his' name along with the names of The Father and The Son?
No I am not a false prophet! So for you to suggest that I am is quite insane! But We can get into this futher later! I am open to learning and I don't judge! So if you are to judge me you have a right because Jesus was pretty much judged in the same way! So bring it Carrie! LOL
Just a little background information for everyone about the King James Bible. In 1601, the English Monarchs believed that they should have ablsolute control, and were jealous of the influence of the Catholic Church. They set out to create their own church, the church of England. This is when they conceived the ideal of re-translating the Bible. In doing so, some scriptures were altered and/or deleted. Although he wasn't involved directly in the translation, it was named after King James I, who was praised for his chasity at a young age. It was later discovered that his lack of interest in women had nothing to do with chasity and spirituality, it was because he prefered the company of men.
The Second Vatican Council in the late 60's gathered some of the best and most devoted Christian Scholors and language translaters to re-translate the original text into American English. The NAB or New American Bbile is the most complete and accurate translation of the new text in English.
Of course, most denominations that orginate to the Puritans and Church of England use the King James Version. I personally do not believe in using a Bible that was re-translated specifically for a group of people to achieve their own persoanl agenda. Before the NAB translation, the Churches already had non King James translations, but the Church decide to create the only English version that was translated DIRECTLY from the original text. Their only motive was to provide English speaking Christians with the most acurate translation possible.
The choice is always yours how much accuracy of translation you decide that you need. You don't see the NAB being sold at the dollar stores, you normally purchase them online, at a book store or at Christian stores. I just hope you make an informed decision.
lashaemrey58, I didn't say YOU were a false prophet. No offense intended. I merely said, if you don't believe Jesus was God in the flesh, you are OF the false prophets. This is how we "test". We must say Jesus Christ has come IN the flesh, not merely was flesh. He was not just a man. If He was, we would have no sacrifice for our sins worthy enough to be so. Even the Jews said, "No man can forgive sins." They are correct. The blood of the Lamb of God is holy, rather than the blood of the first Adam (or the blood of Abel, as the Word says).
Willdawg, I certainly hope we're not accusing King James' chastity as that of being homosexual, as homosexuality is an abomination to God. Jesus was also chaste and has been accused, even in movies, of being the same! For Bible translations side-by-side, Biblos.com is awesome.
Just a little background information on the non original text. All English translations come from either the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament which in turn are copies. The Greek being copies of copies and anyone relying on a Roman Catholic translation must be relying on Jerome's bastardised version - the Latin Vulgate of circa 390 AD.
All English Translations are loaded with errors and the more modern they are the more errors they have. The NIV being one of the worst.
@yes2truth
Yes, I was aware of King Solomon's many wives and concubines. I also remember reading that it was THAT very thing that influenced King Solomon to write Proverbs 8-9 (that is, if he indeed wrote it.)
Also, I can't ignore the fact that Wisdom talks about being the first of God's creations. (created before the world), and was the craftsman at God's side.
Verses used by people to claim that the Holy Spirit has a personality
1 Timothy 4:1
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Acts 8:29
29The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
Acts 10: 19-20
19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three[a] men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."
John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 14: 16-17
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you.
(Note: They use this verse, pointing out that Jesus refers to the Spirit as a 'He' and not an 'it')
John 16:12-13
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
(Verses implying that the Holy Spirit has personal attributes)
Romans 8:27
27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
Romans 15:30
30I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me.
There's more, but I feel that these will suffice for the now.
@willdawg
How strange, I also heard (from a conservative Christian no less) that King James was in fact gay.
The NIV isn't much better either when it comes to history. HarperCollins bought out Zondervan (the publishing company responsible for the NIV translation), and HC also publishes 'The Satanic Bible' and 'The Joys of Gay Sex'
So, anyone who thinks that homosexuality is THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN, should get rid of their NIV Bibles as well.
Sanctus, you've stated something very important here, and this is yet more confirmation that the Father, Son and Spirit are one in the same. God is Spirit, who indwelt Jesus in the flesh, who now indwells us. Compare the following, starting with the verse you gave above ~~
Romans 8:27 "And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will."
compare to:
Romans 8:34 states as follows "Who will condemn them? Christ has died, and more importantly, he was brought back to life. Christ has the highest position in heaven. Christ also intercedes for us."
___________________________
John 12:49 Jesus says, "I have not spoken on my own. Instead, the Father who sent me told me what I should say and how I should say it."
compare to:
John 16:12-13 Jesus says, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."
Sanctus Vesania
None of those Holy Scriptures prove the Holy Spirit is a personage of a triune nor that it has a personality. In every example one has to make it fit. I have done an in depth study on the Greek MSS on these passages and there are many corruptions in the English translations. Too many to write and explain here.
It's the Lord Jesus Christ who speaks to us through The Holy Spirit. The Lord is The Counsellor - The Advocate and The Comforter, for these three roles are all His roles, not the Holy Spirit's roles.
John 14:18 (KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Comforter. The Holy Spirit is the Power that enables Him to be The Comforter and to live with us.
Could you at the least show three examples?
I'm still bothered by the fact that the Bible tells us about God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit. I feel that if the Holy Spirit isn't a seperate entity, and is just 'a force' as some believe, then it shouldn't be mentioned so much.
There is no separation. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same. I AM spoke to Moses through the burning bush. Jesus told the Jews that before Abraham and Isaac were, "I AM". God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit, who is therefore I AM. They are not three separate, but one God. In the beginning was the Word (who we call Jesus) and the Word was God. Without Him was nothing created that was created, and it was the Spirit that moved to give life to all things, even man. This Spirit (God) is our spiritual LIFE that dwells in us. It is the very breath of God. Indeed "these three roles are all His roles".
Sanctus, Jesus is the wisdom sent from God! :-) 1 Corinthians 1:30 "You are partners with Christ Jesus because of God. Jesus has become our wisdom sent from God, our righteousness, our holiness, and our ransom from sin."
JWs are great people. A few of their doctrines are correct. Most of their doctrines are false.
I have known Jehovah Witnesses throughout my life....Their beliefs are very differant from mine, and more often then not, when they come to my door, I will say, "I'm sorry but our beliefs are differant," and leave it at that...When they ask if they can leave a book, I say no.....
The ones I've known personally, felt as I did....They didn't believe in trying to push their beliefs on to others, and neither did I.....We got along beautifully....
If I were to know a Jehovah Witness, would I still keep silent? No....Today, I would speak up, not against their beliefs, but letting them know why I chose the only way, and pray that they would see, and start doing some more Bible reading, and realize the truth....
I used to study with Jehovah's Witnesses and my experience with them has been rather different than what many people said their experiences are. But ultimately, joining their group went completely against my conviction. They are still nice and respectful to me however.
I used to study with Jehovah's Witnesses and my experience with them has been rather different than what many people said their experiences are. But ultimately, joining their group went completely against my conviction. They are still nice and respectful to me however.
jrosemond says:
5 months ago
Keep your comments professional and be honest and open about your thoughts