Looking for Church
64I was vigorously looking for church when it hit me right in the face, kind of like walking into a patio door that you thought was open (‘cuz more of us have done that than care to admit, right?). It seems I was looking for church in all of the wrong places. Everywhere I thought church was, it wasn't. Everywhere I thought church wasn't, well...turns out it really was there all along. I have yet to find church in big buildings on most Sunday mornings. I've rarely seen church in those buildings they call churches, so the name seems incredibly misleading to me. Church, as I have found it, rarely exists in large groups, and almost never in organized religion. I have seen church in families and friends, but rarely in organizations with constitutions, charters, and bank accounts. Corporate church simply isn't church. Church is a body, not a factory. Church is people, not business. Church is a bride, not a machine. What happened to church?
Simply put church is Jesus on earth, and Jesus on earth cared about poor, needy, oppressed, excluded, minorities, and ordinary people. Jesus didn't just win people's souls for heaven, he won their hearts here on earth. Jesus didn't even have a house, much less a church building. Jesus had his meetings outside (which, by the way, I think is the best idea for church meetings I've ever run across) and gave people food rather than taking their money. Jesus was not a middle man running between the wealthy and the poor, but asked people to live one-on-one with the poor giving directly to them rather than creating organizations to keep the wealthy from getting their hands dirty. Jesus called us to "sell all we have, give everything to the poor, and come follow me," not "get involved with church activities, save some souls from hell, giving 10% of your money, and have correct theology." What kind of watered down, tame, distorted, twisted, confused version of Jesus are we selling to people? Come to think of it, why are we selling it instead of just giving it away like Jesus did? Yes, you know we're selling not giving. Admit it. We charge people attendance, active involvement, money, and good works, ultimately charging them peace of mind rather than giving them peace in their souls. Why not introduce them to Jesus and let Him do the rest (and give them rest)? Why the need to control the converts? Who is the head of this church, pastors or God, bishops or God, the pope or God? When does the Bible give one man the right to headship over Christ's bride? What happened to church like the Bible? Can we bring it back?
But the church that hit me in the face, that church was small. That church was just a handful of people that love God desperately and love each other whole-heartedly. That church had no building, rented no school, gave money extravagantly to the poor...but also gave themselves to the poor; their time, their resources, and most importantly their love. That church has a small voice, small but strong. And that church is Jesus here on earth. Would that we had more of Jesus here on earth.
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Another well thought out, well written hub Patience...I'm so sorry that it appears you keep becoming disillusioned by those who are our brothers and sisters in the Lord.
I agree w/ you 100% when you say:
1. Jesus had his meetings outside (which, by the way, I think is the best idea for church meetings I've ever run across).
That's my heart also (christine).
2. Why the need to control the converts? Who is the head of this church, pastors or God, bishops or God, the pope or God? When does the Bible give one man the right to headship over Christ's bride? What happened to church like the Bible? Can we bring it back?
You are right that it is not one man who is head over the church...people in leadership need to have other spirit filled people for accountability...There were leaders in the first century church and they are necessary. The thing large church leaders in particular have to keep armed against I believe is a spirit of pride.....Pastors are called to 'shepherd' and many Pastors today do not have the spiritual gifting of Pastor but are gifted in other areas (such as Teaching or Evangelism for example) yet are serving in the role of Pastor because of their credentials...Finding a genuine Pastor w/ that gifting is a wonderful thing although at times, because they want to please everyone, there can be a reluctance to confront things which should be confronted. A true Pastor models Psalm 23.
I know a minister named Earl Thurner who you would really connect w/ because he is all about going to the "highways and biways" w/ the love of Jesus, giving money to those in need, praying for and seeing those who need it, receive physical healing...God has an anointing on this man because he knows before anything else, Love is most important - not knowledge, not theology, not the flashy gifts, simply love. Maybe you can google his ministry - it's called Desire of All Nations. I think you'd be encouraged w/this example of how the church you want to see reclaimed here and now is actually occuring in some parts of the world.
Converts need leadership and teachings. I agree with Christine's comment except for that one part I just stated.
Something my pastor said a few weeks ago still sticks with me. He said, " Anyone can preach a message. I can, you can, even a drunk in the ditch can preach a message. It takes a special person with a special anointing to minister."
If God wants you in a church building somewhere, He will put you in one. Personally I believe everyone needs a home church.
Jesus did indeed teach a lot outside, but He went into the synagogue a lot also and taught. He also told the disciples to go into the upper room until they were endued with power from on high. This is what a church is supposed to be. A place to get empowered or simply put. Refill your tank so you can go back out into the world and witness for Him.
You keep searching and asking God for guidance and He will bring you to where you need to be.
I think my point as far as church buildings was not that the church has no right to collect people's tithes or offerings or whatever, but that the church is mishandling this money, as Jesus said to give all we have to the poor and follow him, not give all we have to church building projects and follow him.
As far as church leadership, Jesus was pretty clear that we all have one "Rabbi", one "Father", one "leader" uniting us all. There are biblical examples of church deacons and elders, but even then often those positions are abused and used to control and manipulate others in the church. Jesus said that the greatest leader of all would be a servant, but how many of our leaders are dedicated to serving those whom they lead?
Home church? Yeah. Church building? Not necessarily. The early Christians, even though there were thousands of converts added daily, still met in houses together rather than erecting their own structures. As far as ministering...well, all followers of Jesus are called to minister, even if they aren't called to teach or preach. The point of church according to Jesus is to be the body of Christ in the world. Christ came not to be served but to serve and to lay down his life. The point of church, one can therefore conclude, is to serve the world and love everyone the way Christ loves them.
I would agree that converts need some kind of "leadership", but I've seen many examples of people attempting to "convert" their friends but then leaving the rest of the training of new Christ-followers to pastors and teachers. That's not right, nor even necessary all of the time. Pastors do not by default get a closer relationship to God than the rest of the congregation, so I fail to see why pastors have the authority to teach new converts and ordinary Christians don't. Why not come alongside people for the whole journey, rather than just converting them and dumping them on a church? I think that the main reason most people can't disciple new Jesus-followers is because they have convinced themselves that they can't.
I guess my point was just that maybe we should rethink what we have, compare and contrast to where we started in Acts, and see if maybe we haven't gotten way off track with our religious church traditions. Maybe it's time to rediscover our humble roots of the "homeless church" that cares for the homeless poor.
Very well said . I believe there are some good Churches and good Church members , but I still have to agree with everything you say here . And its very well put .
Hey Patience -
I really appreciate how you responded and I too want to see the church again looking/functioning like it did in the Book of Acts! I agree that often too much is spent on buildings and programs rather than 'going out into all the world' to make disciples as Christ directed, meeting the needs (physical) of our neighbors whether they are next door or on the other side of the world.
I'm astonished again somewhat by things you share that you experience w/ the Body....your comments in paragraph 4 above... I agree w/ you that not just Pastors should discipling new converts....sounds like a control thing alright. Of course not all believers are necessarily equipped to disciple, but if we have LOVE and remain humble and have as a response to some questions, "you know, I really don't know the answer to that...maybe we can investigate it together and inquire of others and see if they can contribute some insight or confirm the conclusion we arrive at," it would be just fine. My experience w/ Pastors I've served under is they typically like to pass off and delegate certain responsibilities and as long as they know the heart of the person discipling and receive confirmation that they are to take on that role, they are more than happy to let others run with it.
Although I can't speak for him and I say this with the utmost respect for Sir Dent, I can't help but wonder if he may be someone who is so very much designed to appreciate and be most comfortable with structure. Structure is a good thing yet in contrast I like there not being 'walls' and 'agendas' that prevent the Spirit from moving....yet I'm not saying some sense of order is unnecessary. May we seek and receive discernment.
I just had to come back here for another look at comments that were made. A house church is good, and I mean one in someone's home. But sometimes a house isn't big enough. I know you know what I mean. I also noticed you mentioned feeding the poor. I happen to be working on a hub right now about a church who does feed the poor and even more. They have 160 residents who were homeless before. They feed them and help them to get on their feet.
Noticing what Christine said. I think confusion is of satan and man. God does not author confusion. Paul wrote, "Let everything be done in decency and in order." Now know that I am not throwing stones. I am a musician. I play music in our Church services. It is what I do for the Lord.
The main thing we all must do as Christians, is to come to be in one mind and one accord, for we are but one body. God has been moving in a powerful way where I live lately. People are being saved. Different denominations have been coming together to work things out.
I remember telling someone once, one small match is all it takes to start a raging fire. Everything must start somewhere, even if just with a single person.
If I offended anyone with what I just wrote, it is unintentional. I am merely trying to get a point across. If I failed to do so then I failed. I will try harder next time.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.Phoenix: Thanks! It's sometimes nice to know I'm not alone in my feelings and thoughts.
Christine: I love reading your comments; they make me think more and harder about what I think and why I think what I think. For instance, what you said about structure made me realize that I genuinely have a problem with structure a lot of the time because of some pain from my past. I don't actually logically think that structure is bad (the contrary), but I struggle to see the good in it sometimes. And that's just one example of how you make me think!
Sir Dent: I didn't really follow your comments about confusion; I wasn't really sure what "confusion" we were talking about. I realize that most people are far more practical in their application of Jesus's principles for church that I am, but I wonder if sometimes our "practicality" doesn't water down Jesus's real point in saying many of the very hard, controversial things that He said. Maybe it's not supposed to be practical so that we cannot say we did it in our own strength. Then again, there is a time for practicality, I know, and I try to remember that in the swirling abyss of my idealistic mind. Thanks for your thought-provoking comments.
Hello Patience, Great hub, it made me remember when I was 10 years old, and very active in the church. Our Minister was moved, and a new Man took his place. I had an overwhelming personal problem and wanted to sit in the church and talk it out with God, but for the first time, the doors to our church were locked. The new Minister saw me trying to get into the building, and offered to let me talk to him in his office. In 1960 it was embarrassing to even say the word divorce, how could I tell this stranger my parents were splitting up? Crying from frustration, I cut across the school yard on my way home, and stopped by a large maple tree to rest. Looking up thru the tree leaves I realized that God was right there, I didn't need that brick building, it only came between us.
I continued to sing in 2 choirs, and help in the nursery at church. Attended all of my classes, and other social activities. But when I need to be one with God, I go where I can be closest to Him, in the natural surroundings He created. I go fishing, and just don't put a hook on the line, this way nothing disrupts our conversation.
Trisha...aka Gawn Fishin'
I keep checking back to see if Sir Dent is going to address your questions about his comment pertaining to confusion Patience and read Trish's comment. Thought I'd share the title of a book I'm reading right now, it's a very good devotional and it's called "Outdoors w/ God" by Lance Moore. I think many would enjoy it as I can very much appreciate Trish's comments. I know many other people who believe in God and experience His presence when they are enjoying His creation (myself included) rather than only seeking to spend time w/Him in a man made dwelling.
Trisha: I definitely agree. I used to wonder why we couldn't have church outside sometimes, since God often feels more real there than in a building, but I guess that's just not something most people think about.
Christine: that sounds cool. I myself struggle to use devotionals, simply because I like for my time with God to just be me and God, but sometimes they are good to use in addition to time when it's just me and God with no distractions. But I guess I'm just a little weird about my time with just me and God; I don't even like to read my Bible then sometimes, because it can actually make it harder to just be with God. But thanks for the title, I'll have to check it out some time!
Hey Patience - Think I need to make clarification regarding my suggesting that devotional...I wasn't necessarily suggesting it to be included in ones pursuit of experiencing God while enjoying His creation. I'm enjoying it since it encourages us to seek Him while fishing, camping, hunting etc. The author shares examples or testimonies of his experiences w/ God while doing these and other activities. It has given me ideas, additional insight into different envirnoments we can put ourselves into in conjunction w/ seeking - as well as experiencing Him revealing Himself that I wouldn't have considered. So many times as believers, because of our preconceived ideas, we miss out, know what I mean? Hope that makes more sense.
Hi Patience I really admire your words, they make me speechless… But I do have things to say and what I mean is that I really admire your passion to see the real church of Jesus. I must agree that in my pursuit of church I have experienced some of the same things as you have but I think my vision of church is a little bit different than yours. Not that one is correct and one is not but that I just have a different outlook in some aspects. I would like to say that for the first two years of my Christian life God put me in Heaven on earth and I experienced what church is, also who God is and it served as a foundation for my faith in the task God has put before me. I would have to agree that community is much easier in smaller groups of people, and the family is the most intimate community. I also agree that legalism is not church and it suppresses truth and everything Jesus stood for. I know that church is possible on a grand scale and in large groups of people! In fact the church is one not many. Read what Jesus said in John 17:20-23 NIV, About Church buildings I don’t really care were believers meet to fellowship and worship God, and think the building is not important. It’s the people that count, and the attitudes of the people inside the building. Personally I like your idea of meeting outside and would prefer nature as my surroundings before any man made structure. I would have to agree also that depending on weather conditions buildings are comfortable and depending on were you live sometimes vital to survival. At the moment I live in Red Deer Alberta Canada, God has put me here temporarily. The summer is great, but without buildings and heat in the wintertime everyone would die. Anyhow I really admired your article, and the comments.
Blessings, Ty
Patience, as I wrote in one of my hubs, I find the rod and reel necessary for privacy. If people come by, they don't stop to bother me. Anglers have convinced them for years that any noise will spook the fish! A very big plus, I don't have to be all dressed up to impress other fishermen!
Trisha
Thanks Patience for the hub.
I feel that everybody made some contribution towards solving the problem you have. I agree with Sir Dent about some structure in the church. A church like any building must have a foundation (Jesus) which is the Head of a church. The Church is His body made up of the apostles, and followers of Christ. The body has many functions and all parts are essential (Ro. 12:4,5) "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one, members one of another.
The head is where the brain is and the brain controls all the functions of the body, The heart, the lungs, the stomache, all are controlled by the brain. Suppose a part of the body is the lungs and they refuse to cooperate with the rest of the body, then the body will malfunction.
You were very quick to respond to the writer about your lack of structure. It is very commendable to admit to your lack of structure. Once you recognize your own fault, you are one step ahead because you can now overcome the flaw. All human beings have flaws and as Christians we have to recognize our flaws and overcome them.
I wrote a hub on the Prophecy of Isaiah 4:1 (Seven Women and One Man) which shows that all churches mentioned in Revelations 2 and 3 have flaws in them. I have also written on The Church of Ephesus in Revelation 2:1-7.
http://hubpages.com/hub/prophecy-isaiah
http://hubpages.com/hub/prophecychurchofephesus
God is perfect and He seeks a perfect bride. If any church is perfect according to God, the church will be the Bride of the Lamb. The churches are still imperfect but they are still striving for perfection. The churches are still divided, but when they really seek God and obey Him completely, then the church will qualify to be His bride. There is only ONE BRIDE of the Lamb. All glory to the Lord.
Christine: I, too, have found literature to be a good tool to help me think outside of the box sometimes, but when it comes to the actual time with God I find it easier to focus on God when there is nothing to distract me. Didn't mean to say that the book was not good, just that I tend to read first then spend time with God rather than counting reading about God as time with God.
Tyhill: You are absolutely right; there is no reason that the church can't be either big or small and I oughtn't be limiting the possibilities of the church through God to be big, small, or in between. I am so excited that there are other people who've been shown glimpses of what church could be and how church should be, and I can't wait to experience more of this kind of church!
Gawn Fishin': I absolutely agree, sometimes we all need to find more ways to spend time with God alone and uninterrupted. But, on the other hand, I think we need to find at least one or two people that also desire to know God and spend time with them, people we can walk with and share relationship. God is a big fan of relationship, and I think that He wants us to have all kinds of relationships: with Him, with others who know Him, and with those who have yet to get to know Him. But I think that you are in a great place; many Christians I know spend time reading their Bibles because they're supposed to but never actually get down to relationship with God. It's great to know that you are actually spending time with God, it gives me hope for many other people who prayed the salvation prayer but have yet to get down to deep relationship.
einron: while I think that my idea of structure may generally come across as impractical, I think that the generally accepted concept of what is practically needed structurally may be greater than the actual need. While we all are different parts of the body, none of us have control over others because Jesus is the head not the pastor. Besides that, the kind of headship Christ exhibited was that of serving those He led not controlling, commanding, and demanding of them. I personally think that while some structure may be necessary, heirarchy is unbiblical. But it sounds like so far just about everyone is willing to agree that Christ is the ultimate head of the church, no one else. So maybe I am just saying this to remind myself. Anyway, thanks for your thought-provoking comments, einron! It's always great to hear feedback from many different perspectives! I appreciate y'all so much!
hi christine
good points, i like your writing style and your logic.
I am not a memeber of any religion, since i find them evil institutions created to order you what to believe in, and not to have critical thinking for yourself.I also doubt the existence of God, seeing the state of things on planet Earth, if there was a God, and supposing that he (or she) has a good heart, how could he permit that 90% of the population live in absolut poverty and suffering.Meanwhile the other 10% live neurotical lifes, self obsessed, and hidden behind their materialism and millions..
But, let´s get back to the existance of the church as institution
As far as i know, nowhere on the byble says that there has to exist a church.
Jesus was a rebel, and i am sure that he would be disgusted with all that has been said and done in his name, all the wars fought on his name, such a bloodshed.
The catholic church has been since its foundation a machinery of oppression and violence,for instance the spanish Incquisition or their role during Hitler´s Third Reich, to name just two examples, until becoming nowadays one of the biggest and wealthiest corporations on this planet.
Not to mention all the crimes committed by some of its self oppressed members, who fight their human nature in the name of the Lord,and hiding their sexual nature in this to me cynical spirituality, meanwhile, in secrecy they act like sadistic repressed and violent beings, molesting innocent children for example.
I know that on the other hand, there are many church members doing great community jobs and helping the poor, but they are in the lowest position inside the church´s hierarchy. They don´t have real power of decission, and in the fewer cases when they do have power, like for example the Liberation´s Theology, initiated a critical stream in the 1970´s in South America, its leader, the spanish jesuit, theologist and philosoph,Ignacio Ellacuria, was killed in cold blood in 1979 (see wikipedia for details)
If people could only start to think individually, this arcaic institution, whose head, the Pope(former member of the Hitler Youth) keeps sanctioning the use of condoms, in African countries there are AIDS rates of more than 60% in countries like Tanzania.no comment on this one
thanks
Sounds like you've thought a lot about this stuff, Joe. I would agree that Jesus defintely had nothing like this religion we have made ourselves in mind when He came. He did, however, mention the church once or twice, however I'm pretty sure the church He had in mind did not have the heirarchy or man-made traditions that our church today has. While it has been argued that the church is so messed up because messed-up humans are part of it, I think that the real problem lies more in the existence of church heirarchy. When church heirarchy began in early church history that is when people started getting involved in church for all the wrong reasons and that is when abuse of leadership began. The people who understand that Jesus wanted followers who were willing to be servants and not controlling leaders, those are the people "at the bottom" of church heirarchy who are doing a lot for Jesus in the world. That's not to say there aren't pastors or priests who genuinely love God and are trying to make a difference--because there are!
As to the existence of a God...I hate arguing that one with people, because you can't really use physical evidence to prove the existence of a spiritual being. But I personally believe that the reason that there can be a God and still be so much suffering is because of free will. We have the freedom to make crappy choices and mess up our world big time, and God respects our choices and doesn't make us do the right thing all of the time. May not be a sufficient explanation for you, but it works for me. I also believe that God wants to change the crappy, broken world through us, through me, and that gives me hope for something different, something better.
Thanks for your comments, Joe, I love people who make me think about what I think!
Brilliant writer...I just got done with your 'date' hub and followed up with this one as it caught my eye...I too have fallen prey to a church that is a great one...sort of accidentally. My wife and I were incredible overtaken with the overall impression it left on us after just one visit. After weighing the options (which were many) we made a decision the following week to take up the new members class and begin the process of joining. Haven't looked back since :)
I'm so happy for you! I wish every Christian could find a place to belong that easily!
I wouldn't say it was easy...we were looking for a church for nearly a year, but once we found the right one it was a piece of cake to assimilate into :)
Cool!
Patience, I think you hit the nail on the head with this article. Very well written, very well expressed, and very logically argued. Good hub!
Thanks!
I love this hub! I passed it up several times and then got the notion to read it--finally. I pre-judged it--guilty as charged! Lesson learned. Isn't it all about lessons we have in our lives? I mean I am going to tell you all something that might shock you--or not....I am a minister-----not with any physical building or any single denomination. I was called to be a minister. I pushed the thought away many times before I succumbed to it. When I had my converstaion with God or Jesus or my Higher Self--that was one of the first questions I asked--who will be my congregation and where will be my church.......well I was told that my congregation would be the people on the Internet whom I will have many of and my church will also be the internet--no physical church. I also brought up a concern as to how I would get his word across--he told me not to worry about that. I don't know how to write I said and he said don't worry about it. So I notice when I have to say something--I am guided.
Jesus didn't have a church in mind when he was around. He did say what a church was in the Bible--that it was just a gathering of people. The churches of today are very ornate and elaborate-----seems awful silly to me when all they need to do is get the message that Jesus wants out--don't need all those frilly, elaborate and ornate buildings to do that. I can't go into a church anymore that has these things because Jesus doesn't speak there.
Thanks for this hub! It has inspired me to write even more!
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oberbreckling says:
2 years ago
Hi virtue this is a story of how the thought and repesentation of god has spun out of control,like we have not learned the way of his teaching's. Wer'e going to church on sunday's and having mass in a highrise building for heaven sake.The whole time thier taking your money thier saying, "God bless you, god be with you," but I keep it small and simple. I worship god in my own way. I talk to him my own way, alone, just him and me.