MEET THE REAL VAMPIRES
81The Money Lenders
There Really Are Monsters After All
Capitalism is usury and usury is a process of inevitable collapse. The “profit” from usury is unearned. Ergo, capitalism sucks.
The continuing bailout, euphemistically being called a “stimulus plan”, being imposed by the new amerikan administration is nothing more than an attempt to resume the artificial sustenance of said usury beyond the point it can actually sustain itself. This is to enable capitalist supremacists to wrest the last iota of “profit” from a system that is intentionally designed to impoverish the society to which it is applied.
“If the American people ever allow banks to issue their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations which will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property, until their children wake homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” Thomas Jefferson
Privatized currency, which Thomas Jefferson vehemently opposed, and the lending of it, subject to interest, is the basis of capitalism and the obscene, virulent consumerism it engenders. It is the cause of the state in which we now find ourselves. Do not doubt for a moment that this outcome was intended. What is called credit in this system is nothing of the kind. Rather it is endless, self-perpetuating debt which can only continue to grow until the process reaches the point of unavoidable collapse.
Each time a debt subject to interest is incurred, it requires more of the accountable currency in circulation to service the total until, ultimately and inevitably, the debt exceeds the available circulation.
The perpetually growing debt generated by an interest bearing system will, without exception, eventually surpass the amount of legitimate currency in circulation. At this point, the only means by which usury may be continued involves pumping sufficient amounts of non-accountable, worthless currency into circulation, which will temporarily allow the illusion of recovery and vitality. This benefits only, as intended, those who control the system. The funny money, which is printed at little cost to the perpetrators, is of absolutely no real value whatever. Nonetheless, it is proffered as more “credit” and loaned, subject to interest, at absolutely no risk to the “lender”. The alleged risk in extending this “credit” is the pretense upon which the need for ever increasing rates of interest is based. The cost of actually printing the currency is easily recouped from the unearned “profit” of the first payment of the “loan”.
The so called stimulus plan is in actuality something akin to paying a thief to rob you today, with no fear of punishment, so he might lend you your money, subject to interest, tomorrow. He would also be legally allowed to demand that you pay him back the money he stole from you, in a timely fashion, or be subject to penalties that could include criminal prosecution.
It could also be thought of as comparable to putting a terminal cancer patient on life support in order that they be maintained in a vegetative state to allow the cancer every opportunity to consume the very last flicker of energy in the host.
The vast working and productive population is the host. Capitalism with its non-productive proponents is the cancer.
Post Script
Anyone who has seen the SciFi movie titled “Independence Day” will perhaps recall the modus operandi of the alien species that was invading Earth. They were, in the words of one character, “like locusts”. They traveled from galaxy to galaxy, system to system, taking and exploiting every planet with usable resources and leaving dead, empty husks in their wake only to resume the search for the next world to plunder.
The ultimate, galactic capitalists. Sounds to me a lot like the free market. Perhaps the alien invaders of Independence Day give us a glimpse of how Homo sapiens will evolve.
For those who wish to really understand what has been and is being done I strongly urge that you visit and carefully study here: http://www.perfecteconomy.com/index.html
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Rational Comments Please
Great job. That might be the most apt description of the effects capitalism has on a society I've ever read.
Right on. I have no faith in "saving the system" of banking here. It's too rotten and as you point out, fundamentally flawed. All this will do is stave off the inevitable collapse a day or a month or a year. Doesn't matter, it WILL fall down. Great hub.
I read a great interview with Elizabeth Warren on NPR about the deregulation of the credit card industry in the 80s that is also excellent. I'll see if I can dig up the link and come back and post it.
People came to the U.S. to escape debt. We like to say they came for religious freedom, but they came to escape debtor's prison. Now we're right back to square one with it. Worse, actually.
CWB - I thought I'd just repeat this, in case anyone missed it:
"The so called stimulus plan is in actuality something akin to paying a thief to rob you today, with no fear of punishment, so he might lend you your money, subject to interest, tomorrow. He would also be legally allowed to demand that you pay him back the money he stole from you, in a timely fashion, or be subject to penalties that could include criminal prosecution".
Exactly right!
Great stuff CWB - Once again you delve into your box of tricks and pull put a gem.
The system is broken - quite literally, we are bartering services here. It seems to work very well!
I'm not sure it's a matter of belief MoneyGuy. I think people are conditioned to not understand or to think critically.
"Economics" is such esoterica, the majority of folks just accept whatever they're told; like we once did with our doctors, before they became pushers for big pharma.
Thank you EYEAM4ANARCHY.
I must state emphatically that most of the credit for this hub must go to Mike Mantagne. see http://www.perfecteconomy.com/
This is a very important site and everyone should be made aware of it.
Hi pgrundy. Thank you.
It really is long past time for the federal "reserve", the debt based economy, interest charges, the fractional reserve system and the entire charade of capitalism to go away. Forever.
Paraglider. Thank you for the reinforcement. It is greatly appreciated.
Thank you Sufidreamer.
Actually the system is working exactly as planned. It was never intended to benifit anyone other than the bankers and financiers who control it.
Barter was ever an important part of genuine human interaction. It creates relationships, mutual awareness and, hopefully, respect.
CWB - another thought-provoking hub! That link is mind-blowing - I've never heard of the man before - thanks so much - makes so much sense!
Wow, the attached article on Mathematically Perfect Economy is mind blowing. I have come up with my own conclustion how debt and servicing is overwhelming our economy. And then for the three stooges Obama, Reed and Pulosi to add a trillion dollars of debt on top of it is total frustration. And not to mention what Bush and hisbuddies did in the banking stimulus.
I am still trying to figure this out. A perfect economy with no interest but loans based only on true value. Is it possible? At this rate it would some that logic would be that we would go further in debt because the money is free. Old logic was always to raise the interest rates to keep people from barrowing, and to lower interest rates to to allow people to borrow more. And since we our over extended in debt, the rates over the last years have been too low.
I can see in no interest loans, the banks would be out of the equation. And the root of the problem be removed.
Good thought provoking hub.
Keep on Hubbing!
Thank you Shalini. Provoking thought, critical thought in particular, is my objective.
Please pass the link around any way you can. I think it's rather vital.
Welcome eovery.
Study that site in depth. It's not an easy read but is more than worth it.
Your last pargraph is spot on.
Thanks for the read and the comment.
I already find the situation disturbing and gross but I find Thomas Jefferson's statement even more disturbing in that he already knew. I can't even begin to express how pissed off I really, truly am.
Thanks for another exquisite and exeptionally well written and easily understood hub.
hugs!
So what is the answer???? I am just plain confused now...G-Ma :O) Hugs & Peace
Jefferson was not alone sandra. Look:
James Madison speaking on the first attempt to establish a central bank in America:
"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit and violent means possible, to maintain their control over governments, by controlling money and its issuance."
"It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of citizens and one of the noblest characteristics of the late revolution. The free men of America did not wait until usurped power has strengthened itself by exercise and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle."
Andrew Jackson speaking on the second attempt to establish a central bank in America:
"If congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper money, it was given them to use themselves, not to be delegated to individuals or corporations."
"I am one of those who do not believe that a national debt is a national blessing, but rather a curse to a republic, inasmuch as it is calculated to raise around the administration a monied aristocracy dangerous to the liberties of the country."
President Jackson told the bankers "You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal god, I will rout you out!"
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=28
Check it out.
Well G-Ma, the first thing we need is a real government. Of, by and for the people. That government then needs to either buy or seize control of the banks and reclaim the power to mint currency as the constitution directs.
Article I, Section 8, enumerates the various powers of the Congress. Among these is the power to "coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures."
The control of the nations' economy should never be privatized or left to the mythological "invisible hand" of the equally mythological "market". That would just be a start.
I believe (or maybe it's just optomistic hope) that The People are finally starting to wake up and look around with newly opened eyes. What was very recently Extremist Rantings from Paranoid Kooks is "suddenly" an uncomfortable and frightening reality.
Good point Constant Walker. My concern is the possibility that Obama was selected and approved to win to help lull "The People" back to sleep. Capitalism is a terminal patient and it's being put on life support to allow the elite the opportunity to suck every last drop of profit from the current currency before a new circulation is introduced and the cycle can begin again.
I hope you're right. I hope Obama turns out to be the evil "socialist" that McCain claimed.
Call me naive, but I want to hope Obama is the president I've always wished this country has had. Perhaps that IS orchestrated.
Like I said, I hope you're right. Time will tell.
Are vampires REAl? I always have a doubt on this. 50/50... I am ot really fully convinced that they exist unless I could see one in person...
They've been running the country for a couple of centuries. Did you read the hub mcarolyn? Just wondered.
Good stuff! I thought i was ranting on my own about the banks and the system they control. I will now go and thoroughly read the link you kindly provided.
I think you will find it very enlightening earnest. You may be in a minority but you're not alone.
CWB - Far from being enlightening, that article (not yours, the one on perfecteconomy.com) is so badly written as to be, in my view, largely counter-productive. e.g. -
"In our joined understanding of only these present facts then is the people's greatest possible strength concentrated, because we can prove without equivocation not only that we are denied representation, but that there is a singular fact thereof.
Granted this proof of a singular, integral monetary solution nonetheless, a people who will not see through the transparent facades everywhere to unite for nothing less than that single fact of representation, doom all of us to all the consequences mounting before us."
Sorry, but this is a case of 'return to sender'. I largely agree with such ideas as I can glean from the chaff, but you'd have to be wholly converted to let this guy preach to you.
Sorry Paraglider, for once I must disagree. Since we've long since established that as being permissible it shouldn't present a problem.
One just needs to get past his admittedly poor choice of style. He seems to favor emulating the very archaic prose of the eighteenth century. I don't think, overall, that changes the fact that his premise is correct.
Like I've said in the past, capitalism, which is absolutely a usurious system, has a built in self destruct mechanism. He just puts it into a mathematical perspective.
They have succeeded in tapping out the middle class who is vital to the world economy. Talk about killing the golden goose!!
Like I said bgmall, self destruct mechanism.
Wow!! This article is intense but again clearly stated and put I am certain that you heard about our wonderful governor who stated that the poor should not recieve any aid , food stamps etc. I believe she needs to be impeached, what an idiot. In this economy right now, if you are not filthy rich you are poor. So all of us middle class people have joined the ranks, and she had the audacity to say that the people should not recieve help? Please if you have paid your taxes for years and are laid off, you certainly need to eat and have medical and a roof over your head.:)
Hi AEvans.
Intense is good I think. Thank you.
And yes, there's definitely a push by the elitists to create a two tier class system in amerika and the world. All they want is rich and poor. A very few rich and a whole lot of poor. Masters and slaves. And what do you suppose has caused virtually every bloody revolution in history?
Same as it ever was.
Well, I'll admit that his style so put me off that I did not read the full article, until now. Interestingly enough, when he finally approaches his subject matter, he does become more readable. In fact, though I never had his opportunities to discuss the idea with professors and presidents, it was obvious to me from my student days that interest is unsustainable. As so often happens, the mathematical or logical solution (and remember that Russell proved the equivalence of maths & logic) is glaringly obvious and very simple.
But the political consequence is that banking immediately ceases to become an 'industry', since there can be no banking profits without interest. It has to become a non-profit making state service to the nation (which it should have been from the start).
thanks for a great hub and putting a complex matter in a way that most people can understand. I'm going to check out the link above. thanks!
CWB
I just waded through your link, and it was no small task! I understand 100% where you are coming from, and mathematically there can be no dispute. 0% interest would resolve many issues. The problem is that were it to be introduced, it would in itself generate innocent victims amongst those who have worked and saved all their lives in order to retire on an income based on the interest generated by those savings. Doubtless that could also be resolved by government compensation levied from taxpayers perhaps, but surely your proposition cannot work in just a single economy. It must have to be embraced globally, and how likely is that? I despair of the outcome of all this but I know that things will have to get a whole lot wose before the greedy, bloated heads of banking and commerce will give up an inch of their ground.
Paraglider, you write,
"It has to become a non-profit making state service to the nation (which it should have been from the start). "
Absolutely! And all corporations as well. They should be allowed non-profit existence only by government (the People) charter for a period not to exceed five years. If, at the end of that period, they are not able to factually demonstrate that they have contributed significantly to the general well being of the entire society the charter shall not be renewed.
No stock market. No publicly traded corporations. No exotic "derivatives" and financial "instruments" conjured out of thin air to deprive working people of their livelihood. Most significantly, no one taking any wealth they have not earned or been lawfully awarded for valid reasons by the People (government).
Sound like a communist don't I? Oh well, community is good. Civil societies consist of cooperative communities working together in the best interest of all. Capitalist supremacists have never permitted such a society to exist. All have been slaughtered in their infancy.
Simply put, a “restoration” of the economy we've suffered lo these many years is not a particularly sound course of action. As I said in another post, it would be like someone who has been holding their hand in a fire until they were severely burned going to a doctor seeking treatment and pain medication so they could hurry back to the fire to continue roasting their hand.
No superficial, band-aid-to-treat-cancer sort of approach is of any real use at this point. There are too many convergent crises confronting humanity. Real, meaningful change is imperative. If we don't implement such changes with intent then nature, in due course, will make the necessary adjustments with or without our consent.
Thank you Christoph.
Don't be put off by the guys writing style. It's very archaic and that makes it hard to extract the pertinent information. Believe me, it's worth the effort.
I can't dispute your remark regarding that link Amanda. The guy has a writing style that makes reading a real effort.
You're also correct that it would necessarily have to be globally adopted. But isn't that what's nearly happened with capitalism? Furthermore, the “free” market has basically been forced upon everyone whether they desired it or not.
Personally I think that most people would prefer to live secure, healthy and meaningful lives, even if somewhat more humble, than be lured by a carrot of opulence, dangled from a stick of usury with which they will eventually be beaten senseless.
Those greedy, bloated vampires of banking and commerce will never give an inch until their coffins of usury have been destroyed and a populist state[sic]has been driven through their callous black hearts.
LOVE THE PICTURE FOR THIS!
The first ever vampire flick. Silent, black and white of course.
Nosferatu, 1922. Directed by F.W. Murnau, starring Max Schreck as the vampire Count Orlok. Based on Bram Stokers Dracula of course. The studio couldn't get the rights to the story so they changed some names and details.
Dear friend .Your analysis of the market economy seems bang on ! Really the greed will suck their own blood too at times ..They are Vampires feeding on themselves too ..these capitalist..Vultures !
Welcome Myriad and thank you.
Vampires, vultures, sharks, piranha any kind of nasty predatory creature you can think of. Actually, capitalists give predators and even scavangers a bad name.
cool site
Thanks rock101. It's a little hard to get past his style but what he has to say is well worth the effort.
Without being too contrary, your opening line is pure conjecture. You cannot hope to prove something is true by merely stating that it is. Secondly, your "understanding" of capitalism seems cursory at best. You say...
"Each time a debt subject to interest is incurred, it requires more of the accountable currency in circulation to service the total until, ultimately and inevitably, the debt exceeds the available circulation."
What of the ultimate growth that is achieved by my borrowing capital to start a business? Does that not create a larger circulation of currency? If your statement was true, then we would have permanent zero growth in the GDP and exponential growth of the national debt. How do you account for the simple fact that this hasn't happened?
I agree that the system has reached a critical mass, but that is because lending institutions have been forced by government to engage in non-capitalist practices. They have been told to lend to people that couldn't afford it and then sold the bad paper (or "funny money" as you put it) back to the government that told them to print it in the first place.
That's not capitalism. Capitalism if the free exchange of goods or services for goods or services. Note the word "free". Don't piss on capitalism, just because our elected officials have been.
How do you determine what your goods and services are worth? How do you demand payment for them? You do freely accept, I assume, money for the services you render or the goods you produce, correct?
Can you see your own reflection in a mirror?
Nice to meet you Doug. Have a nice life.
Funny,
Doug proved your point better than you without ever understanding it. That is how great our education system is. It creates retards that have the facts right in front of them with no ability to interperate those facts into a logical conclusion.
This my friend is why it will be a long uphill battle.
TMG
Thanks TMG. I guess you can understand why I didn't even bother to respond to him.
A long hard battle it may be. Or, with all the convergent crises we're confronting, maybe will be forced to work together to just survive as a species. It's anybodies guess at this point.
So... your response to my criticism is to call me a retard and not even bother responding. You must have all the answers. Good luck with your "uphill" battle if you can't even respond to critique. Typical liberals, can only deal with praise, not real discussion.
I'm not a liberal by any stretch. There's a word that has lost its meaning in recent years. Similarly, the people who presently hold sway in government and business are not even remotely conservative.
I find, as a general rule, that people with your point of view don't have discussions, they dictate terms.
And please, don't put words in my mouth. I neither called you any name nor insulted you in any way. I merely declined to comment since I'm reasonably sure it would not be useful to either of us. I could just as easily deleted your rant out of hand without even acknowledging you.
Try reading this little fable. It might give you a clue.
http://www.relfe.com/plus_5_.html
Once again, sincerely, have a nice life.
Doug,
I was the one who called you a retard, though I don't have all the answers I would guess I have a good portion of them. I don't believe anyone that knows me now or during my career in the military would describe me as a liberal.
As CWB says that is a term that has changed meanings, as I believe the founding Fathers would be described as the founders of the most liberal society on earth. One that I would be proud to live and serve under, but the issue is that is not the society we live in today.
As for you, Doug if you would like to discuss any issues my contact info is in my profile we can meet over coffee and discuss until your heart is content. Until then that is all I have to say on the matter.
TMG
YEA I'VE ALWAYS bEEN A FAN OF NOSFERATU! THERES SOMETHING bEAUTIFUL AbOUT HIM.
Hey TMG. I have a suspicion we're about to experience an invasion of Trolls. Just a hunch. When I look at the "comments" tree I see a few odd monikers I don't recognize along with some "unapproved" comments.
I don't know if Doug actually qualifies but he seemed to be leaning in that direction.
Evil often presents a beutiful facade EYES CHAMbERS. Then again, I suppose beauty really is in the EYES of the beholder.
By the way. What's up? Is your keyboard malfunctioning or is b the only letter you feel should not be capitalized?
I only ask out of curiosity.
I guess then the real problem here is an overabundance of ego... mine and yours. Which is sad, because I'm the type that will wade through line after line of jumbled, badly written "parables" in order to try and understand your meaning. Because, though I challenge, I also want to try and understand. I figured if you cared enough to post something on the internet, you probably cared enough to debate and explain yourself if others found you too cryptic, which you are.
You start off by badly framing your argument and become snide and aloof when I (in my not too subtle manner) call you out on it. If you really have these great answers, what is the point of making them so hard to follow? Why "hide your light under a basket"? Where I come from, we call that "being too smart by half".
If your really not a liberal (and yet you want to use their lingo ie "capitalists are vampires"???), then I guess I owe you and TMG an apology. It was the worst insult I could think up in a moment of distress. Sorry. But if you are a free-market lover, then might I (humbly) suggest that start trying to appeal to your brethren out here in the ether, as opposed to resorting to insult and cryptic hyperbole any time someone challenges your thinking. More flies with honey and all that...
...ok, this "troll" is out. Back under the bridge to await the next tasty morsel.
Charles Booth, Benjamin Seebohm Rowntree and David Lloyd George. All great men who achieved great social change - stopping child labour and abolishing Dickensian workhouses. I don't see why 'Liberal' is such an insult, Doug.
What is your definition of the word?
Doug.
Firstly, I was not framing an argument. Arguments are a waste of time. I was making simple observations and offering mathematical proof that’s come to my attention of the fact that usury cannot be sustained indefinitely. It simply confirmed something I’ve believed for a long time.
I stated my observations clearly and provided links for research. Overstating the obvious is something I don’t find particularly useful. Who said I had great answers? Oh, that was you, not I.
I write about what I have seen and learned over my sixty-two years to the best of my ability. If what I write or the way I write it doesn’t meet with your approval, don’t read it. Get on with your life. I don’t see the need to spend an inordinate amount of time defending what I say to everyone who doesn’t share my philosophy or appreciate my writing style. I have better things to do. I prefer to agree to disagree.
If you want to air your views at length, why not sign up at Hubpages and post them, or are you simply slumming?
This excerpt from an interesting old column adequately describes the way the definition of liberalism has been turned upside down.
“Liberalism as a political movement grew out of a revolt by the growing middle classes against government control of business back in the 1800s. Real liberals believe in a free-market economy and limited government, notions completely alien to the modern so-called liberal.Thomas Jefferson said, "Government is best that governs least." True liberals believe governmental power should be limited to providing a common defense, maintaining domestic peace, guaranteeing the rights of private property and enforcing obligations made by individuals who enter into contracts.
Modern liberals are more accurately described as "welfare liberals," who don't believe the average person is capable of conducting his or her life. This mutation of liberalism believes bureaucrats should make the decisions and dole out rights and freedoms as they see fit.”
What passes for conservatism today is in fact liberalism.
I belong to none of these schools.
If you choose to dismiss a parable because you don’t like its style or more importantly its implications then you miss the point.
The banking system, the fractional reserve system and the Federal Reserve Bank are instruments of usury. They are designed and operated to allow a select few to amass huge, unearned fortunes at the expense of the nation.
Economics is numbers and numbers are math and nothing more. It’s called accounting. An economy that is based on usury only creates ever-increasing debt that can never be paid off. A charge of ten percent interest with no currency in circulation to service it creates debt that can’t be paid. Usury is destructive of commerce and society as a whole. This is clearly observable at this time.
One hundred plus zero does not equal one hundred and ten.
If you believe in the principles upon which this nation was founded and the wisdom of those who enacted those principles then simply refresh your history and see what many of the founders have to say about private banks and bankers. There are some quotes in the post and the comments. They warned that this time would come if private banks were given control of the nation’s money.
Forgive me if my use of a common writing tool, the metaphor, is not to your taste. I was unaware that “liberals” were in the habit of regularly referring to capitalists as vampires.
Any insult you imagine is taken by you where none is intended. I am blunt, cynical and sarcastic and offer no apologies for it.
Sufidreamer, you're a historian as well! Your resume grows more impressive by the day.
Thanks for chiming in. I'm afraid Doug will think you're defending me.
I agree that the credit/debt system and the FIRE (Finance, Insurence and Real Estate) industry are about as depraved and worthless as Libertines on an opiate beign. The book American Theocracy detailed how Mortage acked Securities were going to be the downfall of the FIRE sector, the economy, and American Hegemony and I have been screaming that rant since I read it 05-06.
The stimulus or recovery bill has little to do with proping up those institutions. I agree it sucks but that's because its overloaded with tax cuts (which we have seen what 8years of those due to a thriving economy) and light on infrastructure spending which would create real jobs. The TARP and housing relief bills are what prop up FIRE. If you read the fine print on all of these programs they aren't about saving Capitialism as we know it they are about helping it limp along until we can fashion a less predatory system of economics then the one we currently rely on. Think of these program and what is coming down the pipe like genetic mutaions. They aren't there to keep capitalism but instead to make it something healthy. Capitalism will die in our generation just as communism did because both rely on the illusion of success through the extreme.
Thanks for the kind words, CWB - In this case, the Liberal Reforms of the Twentieth Century are something learned by every British school-kid. Amongst the wars and rampant imperialism, the British occasionally did the right thing.
I get the impression that people like Doug would happily see us back in the times of Dickensian Robber Barons and Poorhouses. Give me a good, old-fashioned conservative any day, not these people who read without understanding.
Don't worry CWB - you are more than capable of defending yourself! Not really worried about the likes of Doug.
Nice quote from Jefferson. I am worried what will come of this country, hopefully, his quote won't be fulfilled.
OK Horatio, we may have different opinions on some details but basically we both understand that usurious capitalism can't survive.
Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
Thanks Sufidreamer.
I'm really not completely sure about Doug yet. He might actually not be a troll. We'll see if he responds to my last reply.
Hi kappa022. Thanks for the read and comment.
I'm afraid the point is the Jefferson's quote has already been fulfilled. Just not quite completely yet.
A lot of our back and forth has revolved around definition. You say arguments are a waste of time. Perhaps you would prefer to call them discussion, I don't know. The point is, you and I have had a back and forth that is slowly evolving into something meaningful. I call that argument, using the term as those who engage in debate do. You say potato...
Secondly, I condemned the parable's style (and tried not to miss the point) because I believe discussion (or argument or whatever) is the only means of changing people's minds. If a parable is unapproachable or obtuse, then it loses all power AS a parable. You've lost your audience before you've had an opportunity to make an impact. I can tell you care about making some sort of impact, because you've written quite a bit on this subject and, as I've noted, you've had a meaningful exchange with me. Those are not the actions of someone who doesn't care.
Is it my place to jump onto your blog and spout my opinions (uniformed as many seem to think)? Sure, why the hell not? You can call it being a troll, or lurking, or slumming, but our First Amendment only says that your right to speak won't be abridged. It says nothing about being accepted.
Thirdly, I understand and agree with your "welfare liberal" definition and I understand the historical context of the term "liberal"; but it would do little good to start using terms that find their definitions hundreds of years in the past, when the current definitions are much different (if not wholly reversed) today. Again, if my audience has no access to what I'm saying... am I really saying ANYTHING? Essentially, I am just talking to myself. (In fairness CWB, I realize it was not you that mocked me about the "liberal" thing, I am defending on multiple fronts.)
As you have taken the time to explain what you were talking about (and I thank you for that), I wonder if you might go a step further and explain to me how you handle this parable...
Doug comes to CWB and asks him for $10. Doug wants to be a independent contractor janitor and needs to buy a mop, but doesn't have the cash to do so. Doug is not a farmer, or into animal husbandry, and cannot find a janitor to serve as an apprentice, so he has no tradable goods or skills, but is pretty sure he can make it as a janitor, if only he had a mop. CWB loans him the ten bucks, but tells him that he expects $11 back in one week. Doug takes the money, buys the mop, does two jobs for $10 each and the following week gives CWB his $11 AND still has $9 in his pocket.
A simple parable, to be sure (and I realize it does nothing to address the notion of failure and risk), but as I understand your argument (there's that word again) you would be against this arrangement, even though progress was clearly made by both parties.
As a business owner, I understand that predatory lending is both rampant and destructive, and I even understand your idea that the creation of "funny money" serves very little good, but I am not clear as to how to get around lending institutions or indeed, money in general.
You can choose to respond or not, as it is, you are correct in intoning that I have taken up more of your blog's space then I have a right too, probably. So as you are so fond of imparting to me, I return the pleasantry and darken your cyber-doorstep no more.
"Long days and pleasant nights to you."
I appreciate Doug's comments. CWB, I believe you are throwing Capitalism out, because it has been ruined by too many greedy bad apples in the Corporate and Gov't world.
I would like to point out that when the Puritans first arrived everyone was supposed to work the fields, do the hunting, work the land, and share what they had. The problem was too few actually did the work. The many were content to live off of others. Not until they were given their own land and allowed to keep or trade what they grew, hunted, made, etc. did the colony thrive. The adage, Don't work, Don't eat goes a long way.
Capitalism in its purest form is an economy that properly rewards risk, but also punishes foul play. True Capitalism though depends on man to control his greed and in the midst of finding success, think about his fellow man. I've heard it coined as Compassionate Capitalism. The problem is greed, not Capitalism.
I also find it interesting that someone above was suggesting the Tax cuts were improper. Taking our money is improper. Let's remember whose money it is.
Doug.
First, let me make clear that it is not my particular objective to change anyone’s mind.
I’m not a crusader, guru or ambassador of change. I only wish to provoke critical thinking and open some avenues of investigation that may allow people to see things in a somewhat different perspective. I hope that this will allow them to change their own mind.
I don’t want to convince you of anything. I’d prefer you take the initiative and convince yourself.
I’ve spent sixty-two years reaching the conclusions I have and nobody spent any significant amount of time convincing me of anything. Those who tried were generally so annoying that they defeated their own purpose.
I’ve never read Marx. What little I’ve read of Adam Smith has convinced me he was, let’s just say, unrealistic.
I’m a high school dropout. The impartial evaluation of observable phenomena, unending research, common sense and getting down and dirty in the trenches for fifty years of manual labor have been my education.
If you believe that information disqualifies me from offering valid opinions in matters of such seeming complexity then, by all means, waste no more of your time, or mine for that matter, engaged in fruitless argument or whatever.
Things are almost always much simpler than they seem.
The scenario you create with your parable is a lot closer to the way things should actually work.
There is no need for a third party to create a document representing our transaction and charge a fee for doing so. Such a third party is taking unearned profit for producing nothing.
If we needed a currency for our commerce, we could use one minted by the government and put into circulation as required, without interest, as the Constitution demands.
I appreciate that you don't particularly enjoy a writing style that seems intentionally written to be difficult. Nevertheless, I urge you to make the effort with the following site. I find his archaic style extremely annoying. He seems intent upon discouraging his readers but I believe his information is priceless.
You may come to agree or decide that it’s worthless. Either way, you will decide for yourself.
http://www.perfecteconomy.com/index.html
To get back to your parable, a small, personal transaction of that nature does not involve the third party lender who is the usurer. It’s apples and oranges as they say.
I didn’t print the money I loaned you and giving me an extra dollar would not take it out of circulation.
If I were a banker, from whom you wanted to borrow capital for the purchase of heavy equipment that would be different. The money to pay the interest is not accounted for in the circulation. It's money that doesn't exist.
If the bank that prints the money issues one hundred dollars into circulation and lends it to you asking ten percent, where will you get the other ten dollars? It was not accounted for in the circulation. I guess you'll have to go back to the bank. They'll issue another hundred and lend you the ten, at ten percent. You give them back their ten and you still owe them a dollar. If you borrow the dollar from me, where did I get it? If I got it from my boss, where did he get it? If he got it from his customers, where did it come from?
It’s an endless circle of debt.
So the bank can just keep printing money forever and charging interest, creating a debt that can never be serviced?
It all starts at the same place and that place always charges interest without issuing circulation to account for it. The debt can never be satisfied.
Multiply that by the trillions we're dealing with now. The currency to specifically account for the interest is never created. If it were, there would be no purpose in charging interest.
The only purpose of interest is to create unearned profit for a third party that produces nothing.
Every time a new loan is made there is more debt added until the whole thing collapses, which is what we'll be witnessing before much longer.
The interest alone on the national debt for 2008 was $451,154,049,950.63. Almost half a trillion dollars and that’s government figures so it’s most likely very “conservative”.
The national debt is now approaching eleven trillion dollars or thereabouts.
I find it amusing that people are becoming accustomed to these numbers.
Catch 22, paradox, Ouroboros, the worm that eateth its own tail.
By the way, I wouldn't ask for any profit from what I loaned you. The original amount or something of equal value would be sufficient.
Whose money is it bankman_2?
There is no government to speak of nor has there been for at least thirty years. What little was left of it was eliminated by Reagan. What masquerades as government is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street, the financial “industry” and the corporatocracy.
Capitalism rewards dishonesty, greed, ruthlessness and deceit.
It creates unearned wealth for those who produce nothing while driving those who create the source of wealth into poverty.
The colony of Jamestown was a capitalist venture undertaken by the Virginia Company of London with a charter from King James I. The Virginia Company was a joint-stock company, which sold shares.
Like its inbred cousins of today it existed for the sole purpose of making profit.
It was the beginning of a reign of conquest, exploitation and genocide.
http://hubpages.com/hub/IMHO-part-3
It’s not our money.
If it were, it would be minted by the government, as the Constitution requires.
Instead, it is a tool of usury, issued by a private bank for the sole purpose of creating unearned profit for people who produce nothing of real value.
Since you are new to Hubpages and have published no hubs as yet, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
There have been two “comments” so far on this hub that were spam. They were posted by people representing financial institutions.
They are either linking by search to any blog containing any tags that have anything to do with money or they have a very twisted sense of humor.
I mean no offense but, judging by your “profile” and avatar, it would seem quite possible that you’re in the same line of work.
At least you wrote a few paragraphs instead of less than a sentence.
Thanks for reading and commenting. I hope to be reading your hubs soon.
The basic fundamental is to nationalise banks and insurance companies. They could then be run on a non profit basis with loans being serviced by deposits and loans attracting higher interests to deposits. a small differential in the two interest rates could be used to cover costs and any excess to go back into the finance pool. This is how banks used to work as mutual aid societies to create opportunities for the man in the street and not for banks or the state.
I agree with your principal of the greedy moneylenders ruining it for all.
Very insightful hub CWB.
I wanted to say something good, but somehow I am left feeling bleed dry and with no solution that is reasonable.
Thanks for making us think.
*hugs*
Sib
Thanks sixtyorso.
The problem is when you say, “nationalize”, a lot of people throw their hands in the air and start wailing about socialism. When the token government is owned by capitalist financiers, it's hard to see any meaningful change happening until the inevitable collapse occurs.
Capitalism is like some huge snowball that’s been racing down a mountain of centuries, growing and becoming completely uncontrollable. It’s only a matter of time before it hits something immovable, like reality, and is smashed into oblivion. I guess we just have to let most of the human race be crushed by it before it finally destroys itself.
Hello Sibli.
It does seem rather bleak I know. Sometimes I guess the worst must happen before the best can grow from the ashes.
Thank you for reading and commenting.
OK, now I"m really scared :(
Sorry esocial.
I'm sorry to say that I believe your fear is justifiable. I share it.
All I can add is it's natural to feel fear when confronted with danger. It should motivate us to take steps to protect ourselves.
There seems to be a convergence of crises facing us at this time. I'm hoping this will make us globally aware that working together to mitigate these problems is in everyone’s best interest, rather than continuing to exacerbate them through competition. Competition is, after all, just a euphemistic synonym for fighting.
Thanks for reading. Sorry it was scary.
coldwar thanks for the fasinating article. seems like people are having trouble with the link - why don't you summerize it for us? am afraid an interesting byt confusing article would just deter the lazy (ie. me) from reading it thru and digesting it
The link is working fine.
The banking system, the fractional reserve system and the Federal Reserve Bank are instruments of usury. They are designed and operated to allow a select few to amass huge, unearned fortunes at the expense of the nation. Economics is numbers and numbers are math and nothing more. It’s called accounting. An economy that is based on usury only creates ever-increasing debt that can never be paid. A charge of ten percent interest with no currency in circulation to service it creates debt that can’t be paid. Usury is destructive of commerce and society as a whole. This is clearly observable at this time. One hundred plus zero does not equal one hundred and ten.
That’s about the smallest nutshell I can fit it in.
Thanks for the read and comment Dolores.
Holy bats droppings CWB! You have done one hell of a job of ripping the establishment a new A-hole. I see no future with Obama. He does not get it either and me thinks his honeymoon will reach it's end soon. Like yourself I lack a formal education thankfully, and have no religion either. I am most grateful, as I too can think for myself.
Here is a link with a good explanation with numbers to help your mathmatically inclined readers.
http://www.themoneymasters.com/faqs.htm#collapse
TMG
CWB I guess you are right but to nationalise one assumes a non-corrupt properly elected government of the people by the people. An impossibility I guess?
Well earnestshub, in spite of the evidence I find myself wanting to give Obama just a little more time. I'm not liking what I see with this Economic Recovery and Reinvestment Act.
You might find this site interesting. I find the fact that the bar graph on the left indicates energy is just about the lowest priority on the list.
Thanks for commenting. It's appreciated.
Thanks for the link TMG. I bookmarked it so I can read it later. It's going on 1AM here and I think I'll be calling it a day.
Have you seen this site? http://www.recovery.gov/
Looks like quite a sales pitch to me. Maybe I'm just too cynical.
At this point yes, impossible sixtyorso. I'm still holding on to the slimmest thread of hope that Obama will recognize the groundswell of populism that's starting here as the mandate it is. Let him use the Unitary Executive powers he inherited from dubya to push for some real changes.
I agree that Capitalism, by definition, isn't the true evil (by definition only - not in practice) but what our country has transformed it into - can we even call it Capitalism anymore? Some more quotes that I found interesting from Karl Marx, "The Communist Manifesto:"
"The bourgeosie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley fuedal ties that bound man to his natural "superior," and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man that naked self-interest, than callous "cash payment."
"Modern bourgeosie society with its relations of production, of exchange, and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer, who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells."
“Hitherto, every form of society has been based, as we have already seen, on the antagonism of oppressing and oppressed classes. But in order to oppress a class, certain conditions must be assured to it under which it can, at least, continue its slavish existence. The serf, in the period of serfdom, raised himself to membership in the commune, just as the petty bourgeois, under the yoke of feudal absolutism, managed to develop into a bourgeois. The modern labourer, on the contrary, instead of rising with the progress of industry, sinks deeper and deeper below the conditions of existence of his own class.”
It's amazing that we've been pre-warned of our actions (and by OUR, I mean the government, banks, etc.) and still think that our capitalist system is working just fine. We need a lot of change and hopefully we'll get it. The only good decision I have made through all of this is that I have nothing, therefore no one can take it from me. Great hub - I am not an expert by any means and enjoy learning from hubs like yours - just know that we need change and deserve a life free from financial tyranny.
Pleased to meet you Peppermint Thrift.
Thank you for the quotes and comments.
Marx looks really interesting. I've never read a word of his works. I've recently downloaded a PDF of the Communist Manifesto but haven't gotten to it yet. I'm still working on Michael Ruppert, Crossing the Rubicon. Are there any titles you would recommend from Marx?
I believe that capitalism is intrinsically flawed, regardless of definitions. If you read some of my other hubs on the topic you'll understand what I mean.
We've certainly been warned repeatedly by history that this kind of system only leads to oppression, enslavement and bloody revolution. We just seem incapable of learning from our experience. We keep making the same mistakes.
I am certainly no expert either but do avail myself of my ability to think critically. This always seems to lead to knowledge and information outside the accepted dicta.
Upon evaluation, more often than not, this knowledge proves to make a great deal more sense than the commonly accepted "truth".
Thanks again for reading.
I haven't ventured any further than "The Communist Manifesto" by Marx but would definitely recommend it. I'll be sure to read your other hubs and have enjoyed this one immensely. Thanks for your response.
CWB,
First, thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I'm not here for the short-term and as I want to have a quality first, Hub, I am taking my time. I figured I would get to know a few people by commenting on a few Hubs. Yours caught my eye because of the subject.
"Capitalism rewards dishonesty, greed, ruthlessness and deceit. It creates unearned wealth for those who produce nothing while driving those who create the source of wealth into poverty."
Although, I'm not perfect, I don't believe I am dishonest, greedy, ruthless or practice deceit. Also, I realize you weren't accusing me of that, just the system I believe in.
Is the rewarding of a useful invention such a bad notion? If I invent something useful and helpful why shouldn't I be rewarded. If someone lends me the money to manufacture it, why shouldn't they be rewarded?
Risk/Reward has always driven man. Although, all men define Risk in their own fashion. Noah risked 120-years of humiliation to save his family and please his God.
Thomas Edison risked practically everything to invent the lightbulb. The lightbulb certainly has changed society. Although, I suppose some would argue if it was for the better or not.
Although, I would love to find the cure for cancer, someone has to take up the risk to back my efforts and provide for my needs while I make the attempt. Of course, I should have a certain level of education first so a teacher will need to be paid. To pay the teacher, I need a job. To get a job, I have to be making or doing something useful that someone will pay me for.
Am I appalled at CEOs making millions of dollars to lose billions? Yes. But, I am more appalled at the Gov't deciding how much they should make. Am I appalled at the bail-outs? Yes, I am. True Capitalism demands that those businesses fail. It demands punishment for the greed and corruption. The stockholders should be rising up and firing the board and the management. They should demand punishment for the millions they have risked that has been squandared. Someone shouldn't get a $10 Million dollar bonus for driving a company to failure. Who gave them the bonus? Start holding people accountable and true capitalism can return.
You asked at the beginning about Whose money is it? It should be mine to use and distribute as I see fit. I believe I can make better decisions than the Gov't. I believe I can determine whether to help my neighbor or not. I realize there are things we all need like roads, bridges, dams, protection, etc. But then we should all pay for those shouldn't we. But, we don't need a tax code that is thousands and thousands of pages long and takes billions of dollars to run the agency to collect it.
Capitalism requires protections to be put in place. And punishment when they are broken. The punishment has been removed and that is the problem. Greed should not be rewarded, but inventiveness should. My willingness to lend you $10 dollars to start your lemonade stand, instead of using the $10 dollars for my own use, should be rewarded. You are happy because you get to start your stand and provide for your family. The people are happy because you make some mean lemonade. I'm happy because I earn a little on my investment. Is that so bad?
If I want a new bike, and some one just gives me the $50 for the bike, how much will that bike mean to me? (How well to people take care of rental cars?) But, If I have to work hard to earn the $50, I will treat the bike with much more care. If it takes me a month of getting up at 4:30 in the morning, throwing newspapers, I'm going to take care of that bike. I can then use the bike to either deliver the papers earlier and/or throw more papers and earn income to take care of my other needs, wants, and desires. No greed, dishonesty, or ruthlessness needs to be a part of this situation. I believe this is Capitalism at its best.
Thanks Peppermint. I'll be checking out your work ASAP.
bankman_2
Most of the great inventions are the result of brilliant minds seeking knowledge for its own sake. The capitalist exploits those brilliant minds with as little reward as possible. There are, in fact, instances of progress being thwarted by large corporations because it would undermine their stranglehold on the market and reduce their profits.
Anyone who contributes to maintaining and improving society should be rewarded equitably from the janitor to the inventor of the next great whatever. The problem lies in what we have been conditioned to perceive as reward.
Please don’t try to conflate religious fundamentalism and mythology with capitalism. I wouldn’t touch it with a stick.
I will tell you however that the term usury in its original form was interchangeable with interest. The bible and other forms of documentation have been updated more recently to suggest that “excessive” interest is usurious.
This goes to show how deeply the poison of capitalist greed can penetrate the fabric of society.
“Here is an even earlier translation of the same paragraph of Ezekiel 22:
12 In thee have they taken gifts to shed blood; thou hast taken usury and increase, and thou has greedily gained of thy neighbours by extortion, and hast forgotten me, saith the Lord God.
Here we see the metaphor carried forth. Thus "increase" was interpreted all the while to apply to what we understand to be interest/usury.
Interest therefore is usury; and because either comprise irreversible processes to but one inevitable state of dispossession, interest too is always usurious.”
http://www.perfecteconomy.com/pg-what-is-usury.htm
Edison was besieged by capitalists who ultimately saw to it that he died a relatively poor man.
Please see this interesting article.
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/02/10/did-thom
“I am not saying this in a mood of complaint, for I can make money, anyhow. But it is a miserable system we have in this country that menaces a poor man starting out to invent something. I know of several inventors who are poor. Their ideas would have made them millionaires. But they were kept poor by the pirates who were allowed to usurp their rights in courts.
The usurpation is particularly apt to result in the case of some extraordinary patent. I could invent a new monkey wrench which might go without infringement, but the moment I take certain forces and work out a moving picture for the first time in the history of the world, like that produced by the kinetoscope, mark you how the pirates rise up and call it their own.”
Capitalism stands on the shoulders of greatness, plagiarizes and perverts its purpose and claims all the reward for those who have produced nothing but usury and debt.
The cure for any given cancer, if such has not already been found, would probably be suppressed by various drug and medical equipment companies as long as possible.
Death is probably capitalisms most profitable industry and cancer brings huge profits to certain corporations.
Even though pharmaceutical R&D is largely paid for by government subsidies and corporate tax breaks, the drug companies continue to whine about their staggering costs in spite of making unconscionable profits.
http://www.naturalnews.com/010244.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/12/business/12cance
The key to what you say here is doing “something useful”. There are people making billions for doing something not only useless but also downright harmful.
Your statements about CEOs and corruption are more or less right. What you will probably never be willing to concede however is the fact that this is what capitalism promotes.
You want tiny, low cost government on the one hand but stringent and efficient regulation of multi-billion dollar, global corporations on the other.
All corporations should be non-profit and exist only by charter from the people’s government. No charter should last longer than five years.
The business proposal for the formation of a corporation should clearly establish how the proposed activity of the company would promote the wellbeing of society. If, at the end of the initial charter, the company cannot produce factual documentation of the contributions it has promised, its charter shall not be renewed.
http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_accounta
I agree completely about the tax code. That’s what gives corporate tax accountants and lawyers the ability to allow people and “corporate persons” to evade paying their due share.
As to whose money it is, I addressed that in my first response to you. The only way the money can actually belong to the people is if it is issued by the people. That means, as the Constitution stipulates, it must be issued by the peoples Congress, not a privately held corporation that practices usury, by charging interest, upon the very people who should in fact own the currency.
Your comparison, like that made by Doug, of a personal loan between two individuals, to the way the banking system works is not valid. It is, as I said, apples and oranges.
If I give you eleven back for the ten you gave me, the money remains in circulation.
If, on the other hand, you are a lending institution charging me ten percent interest on a loan, you are compounding interest on money for which your “bank” has already been charged once. These interest charges are usury. They have not been accounted for. They are debt that can’t be paid because the money to pay them has never been issued.
As I replied to Doug, your story of our transaction is much more representative of the way things should work. However, to allow this type of business to take place, once more, the issuance of currency must be the office of the people’s government, not a privately held corporation practicing usury.
Your bike and you paper route are not capitalism.
If the acquisition of your bike were transacted between yourself and the maker of the bicycle, it would be the same as you loaning me the money for my lemonade stand.
If, again, a loan from a usurer was required to obtain the bike, you’re dealing with an entirely different scenario.
If you are providing what is deemed a useful service for the community, if in fact it is of benefit to society then you should be “rewarded”.
The problem lies, as I stated earlier, in what we have been indoctrinated to consider reward to be.
Coca Cola in India, killing people and destroying the environment there is capitalism at its best; making the most profit for the least investment regardless of consequences to others.
http://www.indiaresource.org/campaigns/coke/
That is the inherent, fatal flaw of capitalism. It’s only defined purpose is to make profit over all other considerations.
http://www.mainstreamweekly.net/article1111.html
Thanks again for your input. We can, I hope, always agree to disagree.
who is the dude with the foot print of the american chicken in his picture. The framers of the Constitution would have never thought that the liberal socialist would intermeddle with a greate system of checks and ballances. It is the adulteration of our system by idiots like libs. and their moral depravity that we are reaping today.
Billok1. Don't you mean Bollocks1?
So nice of you to leap right in, with no contributions to the forum, and start spewing mindless venom. No hubs, six hours on board. Great way to get started.
Go read what the framers actually said about banks and bankers before you end up with both feet in your mouth. Learn your history and some manners.
If you can't participate with civility then refrain from participating at all.
I will leave this comment so that others who read it may be aware that there is a viper in our midst. Should you post again in this fashion I will simply deny you any further comments.
Thanks so much for dropping in. I'm really looking forward to reading some hubs from you.
In one of my Hubs I made the comment: "If the government lends the bank 7 billion, which bank will they take it from to lend it too; as they are all under the FDIC umberella". It's a twist that makes the plan even more twisted. The banks don't need money the need to create an illusion so they can grab back assets for 10 cents in the dollar with no respect to home owners. In the markets it's called shorting.Great hub! Makes me want to step out a little more and say the stuff that's really on my mind but fear recourse for my business. Think I'll itch my head for a while and pluck up the courage to say. "Screw them it's time to speak out." Thanks again!
I just read the link concerning cancer that you posted in your previous response and I totally agree. I have been saying for years "Isn't it strange that there hasn't been any major cures for major diseases in about 50 or more years (polio?) and completely agree that why would pharmaceutical companies and the medical community release such finds if they have found any? They wouldn't make any money. It is truly sickening (no pun intended) but entirely feasible that there are cures out there but we will never know of them. I am hoping now that Obama has lifted the suppression of stem cell research that a cure for something will be brought to light. However, unless the pharm. companies and doctors and insurance agencies quit profiting from our demise, nothing will change. I absolutely loved Michael Moore's "Sicko" documentary (I know he can be rather annoying to some) but it documents people who actually have insurance and how they were screwed by the system and compares other countries' health care systems to ours and it will make you angry and make you realize that we have the capacity and means to provide valid health care to everyone but what that means is the insurance companies and pharm. companies will not make money and therefore can no longer give portions of said money to politicians who are time and time again voting against any healthcare reform. It's sad that people are more concerned with being called "Socialist" than giving us all what I feel is a human right - healthcare - I don't think that the more money you have, the better you should be taken care of.
I've read very little Marx directly. Probably because I was already a Popperian (and still am) before I might have got around to reading Marx. Popper's demolition of Marx (in The Open Society and its Enemies and also in The Poverty of Historicism) is pretty devastating. And Popper was coming not from a rightist or capitalist position but from a democratic socialist standpoint. Among his issues with Marxism are that it leads to totalitarianism (which history bears out) and that it falsely claims scientific status (as does Freudian Psychoanalysis). Popper thought (as did Russell) that society and law should be founded in objective (scientific) knowledge and tempered with humanity. That works for me.
Hello Zooloot. I think this is the first time we've met.
Glancing at your profile I can see I need to read a few of your hubs.
Any money the government uses to "rescue" our economy comes straight from the privately held Federal Reserve Bank. Unless some special arrangement has been made this time around all borrowing this money from the Fed will do is increase the national debt, which is currently approaching eleven TRILLION dollars.
It’s in business just like any other bank. It’s the place where the usury begins.
Here’s a couple of interesting sites. I know PrisonPlanet is considered extreme. What would you call the situation we’re in right now?
http://www.prisonplanet.com/us-federal-reserve-to-
http://www.garynorth.com/public/4178.cfm
I’m not yet sure what type of “business” you’re in but if it’s based on the premise of capitalism then I don’t think it’s very secure at this point anyway.
Thank you for reading and commenting. Go ahead and say what's on your mind. I look forward to reading it.
Welcome back Peppermint Thrift.
I couldn't agree much more. The profit motive and the people who thrive as parasites on the working class have completely poisoned this country and much of the world.
Major corporations, oil, energy and the auto industry, are still obstructionist when it comes to advances that would affect their bottom line negatively.
What’s good for the human race and Earth are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what keeps pulling in the profits.
One thing that concerns me is the possibility that these corporations are working in the background to establish “ownership” of all renewable energy generation.
Right now, when no one can afford it, it’s possible for the individual homeowner to become completely energy independent.
The politicians, who are owned by the corporatocracy, could pass laws and regulations forbidding individuals from owning power-generating equipment. Everyone would be forced to continue buying their energy from giant corporations that can charge whatever they please while cutting costs on the quality of the service, the equipment being used and the work force needed to maintain it, just like they do now.
What the government needs to do now is offer major incentives for individual citizens to upgrade their homes to energy independence.
Small business should be given similar incentives.
The auto industry that we’re bailing out should be mandated to start production of electric vehicles, such as the legendary EV1, immediately.
There’s a lot that could be done and the new administration shows no sign of doing any of it.
Thanks for the follow-up.
Paraglider, please give me some titles from Popper. I can usually find PDF downloads of most known works if I have titles. Using an authors name only gets books written about the author rather than by.
I'm trying to catch up on nearly a lifetime of reading and I don't think I've got another sixty two years to do it.
Thanks.
CWB - his two best known political/societal works are 'The Open Society and its Enemies' and 'The Poverty of Historicism'. For his scientific philosophy, try 'Conjectures and Refutations' and 'Objective Knowledge'. Or go for his autobiography 'Unended Quest' (for a very good summary of his life's work).
Thank you Parglider. I'll be searching the torrents for these titles latter today.
Excellent article on the parasitic monetary system we use.
I cannot say I agree concerning free markets as we do not have one. Free, but definition, is not subject to restraint and control. Our system is very well restrained and controlled by the banksters and financiers.
As to capitalism, if you are referring to state capitalism, the control of all capital by the state, then I am in complete agreement. The money changers control the state and use it to control the markets and monetary systems, feeding off of our life energy. I just don't like to throw out unqualified capitalism.
Other than those two small quibbles, I really liked it.
Thank you LibertyUnchained.
I don't mind people who disagree. It's these people who come in spouting obnoxious, pointless venom as if saying some slogan makes it so.
I'm not interested much in free markets. I'd prefer to see fair ones. If you can assure me that a free market can be and can stay fair then I don't much care what you call them.
I think, as I said earlier, that capitalism is fatally flawed. It's the profit motive that ruins it. It pushes all the worst traits in people and always ends up putting profit before everything else. That's inhuman IMHO.
But, like I said, we can always agree to disagree.
Thanks again for reading and commenting in a rational manner.
So far there seems to be substantial agreement on one item among parties to this discussion who can't agree on anything else - that is that the transaction described by Doug where the janitor borrows $10 from another individual and pays back $11 is a good example of how capitalism should work.
if the individual willing to lend the money and the individual needing to borrow the money did not know each other they would both be out of luck as would be many others just like them.
The solution is for someone else to offer to take the lenders money and lend it out to borrowers for them and charge a fee for the service- naturally he would advertise so both parties would know where to find him. Most people would call this banking.
Of course there are crooked bankers as there are crooked doctors,car mechanics,carpenters,painters,lawyers,prostitutes,retailers etc.....
What is alluded to in some comments but the blame never 100% placed is the politicians. Capitalism is always blamed for the faults of the government. This is the primary reason for limiting government and insisting that the government stay out of controlling business.
If the government had been doing it's job banks would never have been able to issue fraudulent loans and the sell them off as securities to other parties (some innocent, some not).
In addition government has been the primary debaser of the currency which will ultimately have catastrophic consequences. When it occurs they will all scream that it is the fault of the greedy capitalists to deflect attention from them just as they are doing now.
A currency standard based on gold would not have let them get away with it.
Welcome Sebastian. Thank you for reading.
The elephant in the kitchen you're ignoring is the fact that there is now no government of which to speak.
You’re blaming the same people as I am but are unwilling to see it.
Wall Street, the banking industry, the financial industry, the corporatocracy, whatever label you like, own the government outright. The crime of the government is its willingness to be bought. Our “representatives” are capitalist lapdogs. Capitalists and the proponents of the "free" market have been at work for a very long time building the wealth and power to control the "government" almost completely. They made giant strides with Reagan and Clinton and now preside over a token government that gives their usury the continued stamp of legality.
You’re absolutely correct that the government has not been doing its job. It has rather been deregulating with reckless abandon and ignoring existing regulations at the behest of various lobbyists.
Your logic however is working exactly in reverse. The reason capitalism is determined to see government refrain from its regulatory responsibilities is to ensure that profit may be pursued completely unhindered with no regard whatever for the consequences; hence our current predicament.
The government can’t really do much to “debase” the currency when said currency is in fact not under government control as the constitution stipulates it should be. Our “money” is issued and controlled completely by a privately held, for profit business.
It is the interest applied upon issuance and at nearly every subsequent transaction, which is the cause of our dilemma.
The bottom line is very simple. To charge interest on money loaned is usury. I’m not talking about "excessive" interest, ANY interest.
Furthermore, a currency based on anything other than the value of the commerce for which it is used is pointless. Neither gold nor any other "precious" commodity can offset the effects of usury.
Although his style of presentation is incredibly annoying, I would ask you to make an effort to comprehend the work of Mike Montagne. However difficult to grasp it is essential to understanding and to recovering from our present, past and future economic prison.
Ending the practice of usury is essential.
http://www.perfecteconomy.com/
I respect your right to your opinion and thank you for expressing it in a rational and civil fashion.
I hope you will respect my right to disagree.
Thanks again for reading and commenting.
I am scared of Vampires... :(
The ones we're discussing here a worthy of that fear bbjane. They're the monsters in their own horror story.
Is that the vampire from Salem's Lot?
No Liz. It's the very first vampire on film and is a bit of a rip-off of Dracula. Nosferatu, 1922. Directed by F.W. Murnau, starring Max Schreck as the vampire Count Orlok. Based on Bram Stokers Dracula of course. The studio couldn't get the rights to the story so they changed some names and details.
Vampires are not real!! stop the insanity!!!!!
sooo cool and weird !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, what are you smoking Caleb Candi1
Hey cassidy. Are you and Caleb having a party?
CWB,
First, I appreciate your willingness to continue the discussion. I need to take some time to get some of my own hubs going, but also enjoy the discussion so here I am again.
I will agree that excessive interest is usuary. I can't quite get to the all interest is usary part. But, I will take the challenge and read through what you have presented.
You seem okay with individuals "loaning" to each other as in the lemonade stand example. My question is what is the difference betweeen individuals making arrangements and a bank making the arrangement.
I understand that banks have been given way to much leeway with the ratios between deposits and loans that they make (Duh!), but banks to seem to be a logical place for people to deposit extra money and then make loans that would be to large for an individual to make. Although, I also realize the creation of credit has helped drive up the prices of homes, cars, etc, but there must be a "happy medium".
It seems to me that without capitalism there wouldn't be the drive for growth. How could the internet have grown as it has without capitalistic ventures? Where would the money come from for the infrastructure, etc. How would Hubpages survive?
How about planes, trains, autos, etc.? Is it your viewpoint, that society and gov't would have done those on their own out of the "goodness" of their hearts?
I don't believe Capitalism in itself breeds greed. I think the darkness of people's hearts breeds greed.
I don't believe in too much Gov't regulation, because it usually punishes the good people, not the bad ones.
I believe there is a way for life to be "fair" and mutually beneficial without crushing and stomping people along the way.
You've mentioned "fair" wages a few times. How do you define "fair"? I don't believe a janitor is lower than me, less of a person, doesn't work as hard, etc., but you have to look at the skill level required as a starting point. And probably add in responsibilities, number of people overseen, education etc.
You also mention corporate charters having limits and being non-profit. How would this work for like a construction company? They have to hire labor, hire admins, purchase equipment, etc. The equipment itself doesn't last forever. The profits are what pay for all of that. What is left goes to the owner(s) to take care of their famlies, their needs, wants and desires.
I don't actually like multi-billion/trillion dollar companies. If the Gov't is afraid of the damage a company would do if it failed, it shouldn't be able to get that big in the first place. I think we've seen that there is a huge problem with these companies having so much control and power.
Anyway, I'll be back. But, I have to go earn some dough to keep dough on my table. I will do some reading and have some more ammo next time.
Interest is usury because it allows some people to take unearned profit while producing nothing of value for society. It also allows those same people to create a cycle of unending debt, which traps the rest of society. It is debt that is not accounted for in the circulation of currency. Accounting is what makes an “economy” work. The moneylenders take no risk, since they print the money at very little cost, and take unearned profit, which removes currency from circulation. They create ever-growing debt that can never be serviced while reducing the circulation needed for commerce.
The bank in its current form is not adding to the transaction it is taking from it. It adds debt to a transaction when no money has been introduced in circulation to service it. If the bank were in fact a state or federal bank using currency issued by Congress, which the Constitution requires, no interest would be charged. Small personal loans between individuals are entirely different from transactions involving many thousands of dollars for start-up, heavy equipment, or construction and so on. The main difference is, with the loan between you and me there’s just you and me. We can set the terms as we see fit. If you want eleven dollars back for loaning me ten, the money remains in circulation. I give it to you and you spend it somewhere else. Banks and financial institutions take unearned profit out of circulation and “invest” it where it serves no purpose other than to create more unearned profit.
Banks are OK as long as they are not privately held, for profit businesses. The printing, issuing and control of money are intended to be a government functions. The sole purpose of representative currency is to allow commerce to take place. It is not to provide non-productive individuals with unearned wealth.
Corporations where originally allowed to exist only by limited charter and as non-profit entities. They were required to show proof that their purpose was to promote the common welfare. If this could not be factually demonstrated when the charter expired they were not allowed to renew it. Growth for its own sake, for profit, is a large part of the problem we now face. There is a glut of supply and a dearth of demand. The law of supply and demand is an artificial construct in the free market. The money would come from the Treasury, which is where it’s supposed to come from. It would not come from a private business, which prints the money for profit, creating debt by its very issuance.
Capitalists did not invent planes, trains, autos, etc. They exploited the people who did. It is human nature to invent, to explore, and to seek better ways to get things done. Brilliant minds most often do not seek knowledge for profit. They seek it for its own sake. Most scientists could not care less where their funding comes from. They just want to know. These types of ventures would be better served, as would society, if such discoveries were financed by everyone and not just those who wish to control and horde them for personal gain.
This is a point upon which we will simply have to disagree. When profit is the motive, it does in fact reward greed. It promotes all forms of dishonesty for the sake of that motive. Corporations have no concern for anything beyond profit for its own sake. Capitalism is literally the worship of money, or profit, as god. Profit is valued above life itself.
Government regulation is not intended to punish anyone. Its purpose is to set fair standards and insure that all parties adhere to them. The lack of regulation we see now is absolutely devastating millions of people world wide for the sake of the personal gain of a very few.
I agree that life can be fair. It just won’t happen in a society that is ruled by the profit motive.
I’m not saying that some people couldn’t possibly have a bit more than others might. I am saying that no one who contributes to society should be homeless, starving, be unable to obtain medical care, education or any other necessity of life. The phrase “working poor” is one that should not exist in any language. It is an abomination. The disparity between those who actually work and those who “administer” is a national disgrace. I have worked in the corporate sector. I have interacted with upper management. The “work” done by such people is trivial in comparison to that done by those who actually produce wealth by their sweat and labor. There is absolutely no justification for any CEO to earn four hundred times what the hourly worker makes.
Chartered corporations get their capital from the Treasury. That is the purpose of money! To enable us to conduct useful, productive commerce for the benefit of the entire society, not just five percent or less who actually do basically nothing. All labor and administration that is justifiable for the commerce at hand can be issued by the Treasury. Since no interest would be charged, no unserviceable debt is created. All the funds can be accounted for. The amount would equal the exact determined value of the commerce being undertaken. Not knowing the difference between what we need and what we want is a great part of the problem that we confront today. That is another very negative aspect of capitalism, marketing which creates a need where none exists.
You’re absolutely correct. Corporations should never have been permitted to become so powerful. Nor should they ever have been granted “personhood”. That decision was one of the worst in the history of this country. It ranks right up there with the creation of the Federal Reserve.
I don’t think I care for the use of the term “ammo”. At some point, we should consider whether or not this exchange is in fact a productive one. If it is to be an endless attempt at “converting” one or the other of us, it will degenerate to the level where the word ammo might be appropriate.
The more basic half of the solution was proposed around 1520 by a 15 year old french guy called I, think, Ethienne de la Bottier (sp?). In his "Study on Voluntary Servitude" he demonstrated that the reason servitude exists is because the serf allows it. It can be gotten online. One of the best reads.
The main lesson I got from that treatise was that any definite solution to social problems starts an ends with the individual. Institutions of any kind are completely powerless, dead entities that can exist only through individuals.
The problem is mainly one of miss perception on the part of "the poor" and lack of scruples on the part of "the rich", which leads to fear in the "poor."
Now think about this: if a financial solution is found (it has), by one individual and he taught it to two people the first week and every one that learned it would teach two more the first week, in 36 weeks all 6,291,456,007 (he-he) would know how to be financially free within a few months or something.
Fear is the greatest motivator but it has the "knack" of motivating towards the wrong ends. So wrong infact that often we end up afraid of others' success.
But who's to blame? I think that "we" have at least 49% of the blame, because not only do we not help others (generally), but neither do we help ourselves.
The solution to financial and economic problems is in all 7th grade math books, but it's so simple that we refuse to see it. And those that decide to accept it at the price of $3,500.00 miss apply the solution by merely paying their mortgages in 8 years. It's disgusting but at least they're not as bad as the great majority.
Still, its like the rich say: we don't have the "killer instinct".
That solution is almost as powerful as simplicity itself, because that's where it draws its power from.
I'm not gonna spell it out now but I'm sure I'll write a hub about it soon. Right now it's more important to assess the current situation.
The monetary problem is not the paper currency but the debt/credit basis for its creation. The 13 colonies were prosperous beyond english belief because of paper money. Lincoln financed more than the war based on paper money. Hitler both reconstructed Germany and financed WWII because of paper money.
In fact, Lysander Spooner demonstrated the principle in his essay "Legal Tender". A I sustain that the reason the Continental lost all of its value was not because the English flooded the rebel colonies with counterfeit continentals, but because the patriots' leadership didn't both stop printing continentals and gather the counterfeit until England ran out of ink.
They knew the principle: Issue enough currency to sustain commerce without interest by using it first for social advancement and infrastructure. We could be using fake continentals even today. The leaders were not proactive enough probably because of emotional attachment to their own paper money.
Now to inflation: The USA transitioned from a producer society to a consumer society, yet the standard of living is still rather high. How come?
Because The main export of the USA is inflation. By OPEC accepting only USD for oil The countries have to buy debt laden dollars in order to buy oil and the fed gives the US Gov the money to be given out on welfare benefits.
So, the way inflation happens is that the bonds the government give The FED in exchange for the currency and credit (checks) are valued at the issue day's price; but when the Gov. spends the money it inflates the money suply thus reducing the value of every single dollar of currency or deposit or credit in existence (even petrodollars). the net effect is that the government collected a front end tax. Just like the kings that used to shave the gold an silver coins and re minted the shavings long ago.
Deflation is even worse than inflation. Its net effect (it's happening right now) is similar to the music stopping in a game of musical chairs. The reaping of property through massive foreclosures, etc. That's what completes the usury cycle, which ends up in a higher number of slaves than last time.
Any way, I've to go to bed. Almost 5:00 AM here. I'll post about that solution in my hub or my blog at
Nice to meet you pafipe.
I would be very surprised if you're not already aware of this site but, just in case: http://www.perfecteconomy.com/
I don't think I said anywhere in my post that paper money is the problem. It's interest. Interest = usury plain and simple.
Pivately owned banks controlling the currency was something Jefferson and the others were vehemently opposed to.
Thanks for the read and the in depth comment. I'd appreciate a heads-up when the hub is done.
MEET THE REAL VAMPIRES the money lenders
Thanks for the reminders. I knew most of that but it is so easy to forget.
Believe it or not, Europe is still very capitalistic and not quite as socialistic as many of your republican fear mongers have tried to make us out. However, workers here do have a lot of protections, and I am pleased that when I get sick I can go to the hospital and not spend a euro on care. Private doctors are still functioning well, thank you, and for the most part, even the unemployed are doing OK. We can make it better, but right now I would bet that Europe is a more advanced continent than that part of North America where the US exists.
It's too bad because once the US was a beacon of sorts to the world, but that light started to go out under Reagan and has dimmed lower ever since. That's what happens when an entire nation becomes paranoid and fearful of the world and uses that fear to keep people in line. It happened here in Spain under Franco and everyone with half a brain is struggling against the reactionary forces of the right to make sure it never happens again. Of course, there are still some brainless few who want the old days to return because they were well off and were in charge. Like the people mentioned by paraglider in one of your hubs, a small number of ordinary people are sucked into backing these vampires of the right.
Thank you Ivan.
I think it's safe to say that things can always be made better. I like to think that may be part of our reason for existing. It's my hope that we'll all learn to work together to make things better for everyone.
I'm not sure the u.s. was ever a genuine beacon. Our PR was sure a lot better in the past but it seems like the real motive has always been empire.
Thanks for reading and thanks for your thoughts.
Another good one, CWB.
I've posited a bunch of theories on how to restructure capitalism. I don't think its basic ideas are flawed--using networth, fortune, and all that jazz is. Also, we need to disband both Wall Street and settle on a fair tax. The IRS, when we kill it, will save us 10 billion dollars a year.
Not to self promote, but if you look under "the social experiment" you'll see some of my theories. I'm currently testing them, with everyones help here. ;)
Sincerely,
G|M
We'll have to agree to disagree regarding the basic flaws of kapitalism G|M. It is and they're fatal.
It's much more important to eliminate the Federal Reserve and the usurious banking system. The mandate is for the government to print and control the money which is to be issued as needed without interest.
Thanks for reading and contributing to the conversation.
Its all good, CWB. =)
Kapitalism's two basic metrics-supply and demand work.
But you're absolutely correct (and I mention this in my paper, I believe on a few occasions) in the end the Federal Reserve "bank" needs to be disbanded, as well as the IRS.
Sincerely,
G|M
Supply and demand work just as well if you remove the profit motive. It's part of survival of the species.
Agreed, sir. Have you read this Hub I've written? Not trying to make you or self promote, but like I said...you and I have a lot in common:
If you have 3 1/2 hours this video explains the history of the problems of our banking system very well.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560
Mike
I'm downloading a torrent Of The Money Masters as I type this response Make Money.
If you haven't seen it yet, check out The Corporation parts 1 & 2.
http://www.thecorporation.com/
If it doesn't conflict with your principles, you can find torrents for it without much trouble.
If you Google 'I want the world and 5%' there is an interesting article on how this all started!
Even easier, I just did it:
http://www.relfe.com/plus_5_.html
John
Thanks aguasilver, I've got a copy of that on my hard drive. I saved it about a year ago. It's a good parable for what happened.
TheMoneyGuy says:
10 months ago
CWB,
Well said, the money is funny. Hard to get people to believe that, but I think it is getting easier.
TMG