Military Tradition is Bad for Society
73I fully realize that this hub will be controversial and offensive in a deep and serious way to some. My intent is not to offend; rather one of my primary objectives is to attempt to evolve discussions regarding the military in the United States of America. I have thought about this issue long and hard over the years, interrogating my own opinion time and time again. I firmly believe in the stance I am about to take after significant contemplation.
A news story from far Northern California brought this issue to the forefront of my mind once again. Long story short, a town in 'liberal' Humboldt County, California has agreed to ban the military from recruting anyone under the age of 18. Discussions of whether they can actually enforce this law or not aside, I think it brings up a vitally important, albeit touchy issue that hardly gets broached in American society.
In short, could it be that our tradition of respecting the military is bad for society?
Military Backlash
Anti-war sentiment and the further step, military backlash, is hardly rare in certain parts of the United States. It often takes place in the so-called liberal bastions of America such as portions of Northern California and a barrel full of college campuses. I remember one sit-in during my time at San Francisco State University. Military recruiters often show up on college campuses. Many colleges are conflicted when they allow this to occur. On one hand many members of the administration, faculty, and student body are opposed to the military recruiting their students. On the other, in order to receive some federal funding they must allow this to happen. The "solution" at San Francisco State was memorable. Hundreds, or more likely thousands of students, flooded the building where the military recruiters set up their tables, effectively making it impossible for anyone (other than a protester) to get to them. It caused a scene, garnered media attention, provoked some outrage, and, I guess, in the moment it worked.
And of course, during the early portion of the Iraq War, anti-war demonstrations were widespread. Some were quite passionate and well-attended. There is a difference, though, between being anti-war and anti-military. I think I am both. In being the latter, though, I do not necessarily hate members of the military, but I do think that, as a collective, they have a detrimental effect on society.
Reversing the Moral Status Quo
I have two cousins. Both are between 19 and 21 years old. Both come from families were immediate and close family members served in the military and fought in wars (Korea and Vietnam). Both come from a culture that:
Both of these cousins joined the military. One served in Iraq. The other is headed to Afghanistan. Neither has spent a minute in a college classroom.
- Fosters, demands, and expects a deep respect and admiration for the military, particularly those who served in it. No questions asked - members of the military "put their lives on the line for their country" therefore they are noble.
- Believes that the military can straighten someone out, i.e. provide order and direction in the lives of those who seek it or presumably need it.
I believe the way we revere the military and its members in our society is a thoughtless, simplistic, and reckless act. We automatically assume that the troops warrant our respect and that the decision to serve in the military is a selfless, noble act. Even when we can't quite explain exactly what American soldiers are dying for (exactly what do we mean by "freedom," is it for WMDs for for liberation or to stop the spread of communism or to keep open the flow of oil?), we laud them for "dying for us." Simply put, it's an old and tired way of thinking that needs to be challanged.
I know that it is harsh, but I think we need to start reconsidering how we view the military as a society. We need to start looking down on it as a career choice. That might sound harsh, but young people coming home in body bags and seeing the world as an act between good and evil is just a bit more harsh from where I sit. Youngsters ought to be discouraged from joining the military... from entering a line of work where you ultimately being trained to kill. Our society should snub their noses at those who make the decision to join. Our society should demand that minimal dollar amounts are spent on the military with money redirected to give children a real chance at an education, at all levels. Joining the Peace Corp should be encouraged when a kid fresh out of high school feels optionless.
As it stands, we have a system that fosters young people joining the military because they know they will be well-received. Even from anti-war factions, they feel they will be respected because, like a firefighter, they are risking themsevles for us... even if that notion is little more than abstract symbolism. If our societal attitude starts to shift to one that wonders why in the heck anyone would want to become involved with an entity as inhumane as the military, maybe our need to have such a large and costly one will decrease.
The military as a noble endeavor is little more than a self-perpetuated and self-serving proposition anyhow. It is proferred by the military itself with the ends being short and long-term sustainability that justifies the means of duping young people who think no other choices exist.
High school teachers and guidance counselers: Can you say Peace Corps? Can you say the non-profit world?
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Comments
Awesome article.. i often have had the same thoughts about the military. For some reason I have always held a sort of disregard for people who go into the military.
I know a world "full of peace" is not possible. And as much as I guess I would like to see it, I am not asking for it. This is less about war and peace as it is about the values we instill in our young people. Why, when they feel like there are no options or when they feel like they have headed down a bad path, is the military considered this smart choice?? This noble choice?? This experience that will straighten you out?? Why don't we suggest other realistic avenues that don't involve some of the just awful things that happen to people in the military?
And as for the small town thing... no, not in the midwest specifically, but I have lived in and am the product of a small town complete with small town thinking elsewhere. And not too far from California's large cities are some of the most conservative places in the nation.
Hi Composed, out of nothing but respect, I will ask you a hard question.
Your article condemns the blind admiration of military service quite effectively. I agree with you. Yet your argument needs stronger examples of why military service should not be blindly admired.
I believe the photos of veterans shown at the end of your article show a quite different scenario than respect or admiration. I believe that they show that our military people are victimized - used and discarded like donkeys. These people have clearly sacrificed their lives even though they survived the war. Certainly they deserve at least respect, if not admiration, yet no part of our culture gives them that.
I think you are telling us that the whole hard sell to young people needs to stop. Yet in comments you agree that a world of peace is not a foreseeable reality. Therefore an army is necessary, isn't it? If an army is necessary, and it will not be comprised of duped youngsters, of whom will it be comprised?
Just a thought....if not for American soldiers...you would be executed for writing this hub.
Good comments, Tom.
Like a good song, I never really complete the story in my hubs. I think each person should do that just as you did... bringing it along, if you will. It also makes for better discussion in the comments section.
I never said we should not have a military, but it ought to be viewed as a necessary evil that maybe one day we would not need. Instead military service is beyond reproach. I mean if you criticize the notion that the military is noble you really can get yourself in a lot of rhetorical crap.
And let's face it, a large portion of the military as it stands IS made up of duped youngsters... or at least youngsters who felt optionless and saw the military as an admirable route. They could make someone proud by joining... their families, their nation, they become somebody just by joining.
It could very well be that the Peace Corp is that option for youngsters and it is revered... but we have not set the scene that way in America unfortunately.
Oddly, it ties right into the bike stuff you and I write about... we have this military and we propagate this positive image of it in order to enlist people so that we may control the flow and end point of much of the world's oil... to do many things, one of the biggest being to keep our cars running.
Just a thought....if not for American soldiers...you would be executed for writing this hub.
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It's comments like that that make me chuckle...
It has been ages since American solidiers directly and truly fought for my or your right to free speech and such. Our motives have been far less righteous as of late.
So ...you are saying that most soldiers died in vain?
Without a doubt, especially in Vietnam and Iraq. That's pretty clear.
So you owe them nothing?
This is not really directed at you because this is such a collective American phenomenon so don't take it the wrong way, but you are a case in point.
Most of us cannot think outside of the paradigm that we owe the military this or that. Cannot even wrap our heads around it.
And really... the myth that military service is noble is only there to keep the house of cards up... to get people to continue to enlist. It must be eroding some considering the $10-20K bribes being offered to get people to join.
But if it was more than that - an act on the part of government to keep the entity afloat for strategic and selfish reasons - than the pictures you see at the bottom of the hub would not exist.
The government considers military members worthless once they are done with them... once they have contributed to the cause which, again, is less than righteous.
It has always been that way....I know the military is about money and power. Our government has abused soldiers from the Civil War forward. The soldiers believe they are fighting for a purpose regardless of what the war is about.
Our government was mining uranium in Vietnam. Our government was seeking control of oil in Iraq...that is even obvious to an idiot.
Soldiers don't die in vain within their hearts...they are given orders to fight and they fight because our goverment has ordered them into war.
The military is'nt the problem....those polititians and military brass who manipulate it are.
I will always respect any soldier of any war because ...they are fellow Americans and they want peace as much, if not more than any of us. They did risk their lives....many lost their lives.
To take that lightly, as you have expressed...I guess I just don't get it.
Fair enough, sir.
I guess I just don't get what you are basically saying - they died in vain, but they made themselves believe and/or were led to believe that they fought/are fighting for something noble, so let it be.
I can't hang with that.
No...I don't believe that any soldier fought or died in vain. What I am basically saying is...A soldier stands for what he or she believes in and proves it by sacrafice.
If you wish to change what they believe in...are you willing to sacrafice as they have done?
Would you risk your life for your cause? They did and still do.
They risk their lives for what their government and their direct bosses are telling them they are fighting for... they are being sold a bill of goods. It's somewhat cult like.
Even so......most soldiers are brave and noble human beings...they do their best to survive and help each other to survive the world's meat grinder leadership and it's insanity.
While we are about this discussion of the MILITARY,
Ask Congress WHY did the worlds greatest military power FAIL to defend even its own HQ?
I am a Viet Nam vet. I don't hold any love for the military or what it did in Viet Nam. I saw many good people die there, people on both sides. I grieve for my lost comrades and those who were injured beyond any physical or mental repair. Viet Nam was fought because America did not live up to its ideals. Ho Chi Minh was an ardent patriot of his nation. When the U.S. rebelled against Great Britain it was as if the whole world was coming to an end, at least from a monarchist's point of view. This revolutionary and frightening new form of government was totally contrary to anything seen before.
When Viet Nam fought the French for freedom, it was a revolutionary and frightening idea that a South East Asian nation might actually want to toss off the shackles of colonialism and live free or die trying.
The roles had changed: We were the Great Britain to North VIet Nam's America, if you follow my logic. Any time a new force comes on the scene reactionary forces band together to stifle the new ideas. We did that, unfortunately, because were were ideological and reactionary, because we had lost the basic fervor which built our nation - live free or die trying.
Viet Nam was a sad comment on how America changed into a super power more concerned with its own ability to bully others than it was about a nation acting as a beacon of hope in an otherwise bloody and imperfect warring world. The roots go deeper, farther into the past, but recent wars and the men and women who created them have done great disservice to both our troops and our citizens.
It would really be utopian if we could as humanity cease to exist without race, caste, religion, sect and even without national borders. We should really be treating humans as humans and nothing else. But the sad fact is that this world has enough people who rule their mind through the above mentioned reasons. All efforts towards peace become detrimental. Nobody would really like war and see people from either sides, including children getting killed. Somehow our human society has always fought with or without rational reasons and that seems hard to change. War is inevitable and so is terrorism. Hence, what remains is our will to fight what we consider evil.....
Wars cause immense personal damage to the people who fight. That damage just doesn't go away. Families suffer, the children of veterans suffer long term, as the mother or father tries to deal with personal traumas or losses of loved ones.
As a small example-in the UK around thirty per cent of the people who sleep on the streets are former forces personel. They won't or can't take the help that is offered, the damage has gone too deep.
I think it takes a few generations for any family to purge the effects of any its members being immersed in serious combat and we don't ever seem to get that recovery time.
in the UK, there is a popular culture of violence with militarist overtones and a lot of young men seem to think they are fighting a permanent war. After hundreds of years of routine conflict it is probably to be expected.
When I go out into any town centre in the UK on a Saturday night and see the carnage (the fights, the amublances, the atmosphere of mayhem) I wonder if Britain will ever lose its fight or die, war mentality.
I can't comment on the US situation since I have never lived there.
Excellent comment, Will. Thank you very much.
I have a friend that came to the States from Viet Nam. She says the Viet Nam war wasn't pointless and is glad we were there. Something to think about.
Without a military 'tradition" you would not have a society at all.
My personal belief reguarding the military is,that even though we as, a country need a strong military,that does not mean we should give those in charge of the military over riding control of how,and why the military is used.There is a polyanish belief among the majority of the population that the majority of those in the military are there for "justice" "peace" and "lawful" purposes.
This may be true!
However, this belief is being used some of those in charge of the military,well as politics to do anything ,either willingly or unwillingly what hey want unchecked by civilian,or congressional oversight when in fact ,they are using national security in name only as a way to prevent any oversight they don't want,especially if what they are doing is illegal,immoral or both !
Most of the military troops aren't willing to put their neck on the line by risking being charged with insubordination by questioning the orders of their leaders.
The same is true of those same individuals in past wars.The nurumberg trials come to mind.When asked why they did what they did,nazi solders maintained that that's what they were told to do!
The U.N. as well as most member countries held those solders,and their leaders in charge, responsable for allowing that hellish activity,torture and mass murder,or genocide of another group of people,as has happened throughout history to many different races.
Switzerland has a well regulated militia,and they are willing to protect themselves,but they are wisly unwilling to go on the offensive.Unlike most other militaries around the world. This sounds most reasonable .Why should we be offensive.This is different from helping other countries that can't help themselves when asked to do so! In fact all males in Switzaerland are required to train for the military.Does that sound like they are passivists? To the contrary,as offensive militarily as we are ,we don't do that,why not? The answer is likely,those in charge of our military as well as some in politics are afraid of their own civilian's,or simply don't want civilians to have any reasonable way to defend ourselves from ,dare I say it! Our own government! With a few exception's that I can think of , the state of Colorado and maybe Texas
Some people ask why do individuals go into the military. It could be there are unwise reason's? what it is like!.Maybe they are, from a military family and are told it's an honorable "profession" PROFESSION ? That implies that an individual is in it for the money! It may be that they are patriots that truely want to spend their life protecting their country.Yet,most of the veteran's that come back we are told are homeless. Why is that! How can that be? Don't we pay our military a decent amount,or is something going on ,that we don't know about? I personally know of a young man who supports his family with military pay ,but he is in Iraq.However there are miliary families who arn't in a war zone ,who don't make as much.I'm sure that makes a differnce.Then I've heard horror stories of our military troops being ripped off by military con-tractors,like Halliburton in Iraq.Nothing new about that though! We've all heard about the military troops being ripped off by the private sector,by charging our government outragious sums for inexpensive items that can be purchased elsewhere for a small fraction of what is charged to the taxpayers! It's called cost -plus accounting.Where they recoup costs incured without reguard to who was paying those costs.namely the taxpayers Due to recklesness. Like charging of outragious sums for food ,water that wasn't even clean,and fuel for the trucks and tanks used in Iraq.One hundred dollars to wash a load of dirty clothes?Is this patriotic?
.It seems the military and what used to be the private sector ,are really in bed with each other!
"people" -on(wallstreet as well as mainstreet businesses) using the military- and the miliary,using the "people" (wallstreet as well mainstreet) to keep the money flowing into the military.and what we think of as public and private industries.When in fact ,many are run by and for,former military types,now private individuals.SURPRISED! You shouldn't be! The fact many of those running things could care less about those they are charged with leading ! That goes for wallstreet as well as mainstreet. But don't blame everyone at the top.Some have the moral courage to try to do the right thing. Not that they are in the majority though ! The way I hear it ,the military has the technology to bring about very cheap energy,but for the fear this would change the power structures around the world and in our own as well,these are being kept secret,by the military industrial complex,for fear they, will come out on the short end of the proverbral stick Energy is the really scary one to them.It would allow our enemies as well as anyone else the ability to travel anywhere ,at little or no cost I must say,it is a very good reason ,but sooner or later we will need that energy,and we must come up with safe viable alternatives.
World population ,water,food,and fuel as well as production demands,will bring us to another world war.Perhaps the last one,unless we can change the way we do things fast enough to overcome our problems worldwide.War is not inevitable,it's likely ,but not inevitable.It's up to all of us,all for one ,and one for all.as long as that one is on the right side.PEACE.
The World is not filled with Liberal-tree-hugging-peace-seeking-people. It is filled with turmoil. It is filled with bad people that don't believe in our values. Yes it is wrong for us to push our ideologies on the West. But we have taken the role as the "protectors of freedom" across the World. Our morals of peace were founded on a doctrine called the Constitution that was fought for by our military soldiers. Liberals forget that document exists and how we became the country that we have became. Our military began protecting the rights of humans and the guard against tyranny in World War I and it is still in our nature to stand up for the little guy getting beat up on, because less than 300 years ago that little guy was our forming nation. People died for you to have the right to write that hub and you show zero respect. I wouldn't call you stupid, just truly ignorant and biased towards the military you have seen in your lifetime. Do you think their is not a country that would not love to exploit our natural resources without our military,our right to bear arms and to form militias.
I am not always in favor of the political decisions made at the top, however if you are against the American military you should prepare for a Communist takeover. It's not a threat, it's a promise.
There is more going on in the world than meets the eye.I don't pretend to know everything going on,in the world,but from what I've seen so far,money and the power it conveys seems to be the common denominator,almost everywhere in the world.
What used to be reasonable reasoning for certain wars,does not give us a blank check to do whatever we want,here or anywhere else without negative repercussions,if those reasons are bogus in the time and place we propose
to intervine in other countries affairs.
My answer too all those sign holders IS pack your s**t and move to North Korea
Composed - it took courage to write this hub. Thanks for doing it. The US military, or more precisely its highest command, has disgraced itself in recent years through blatant adventurism abroad. That is not something anyone should be proud to be part of. I think it is more reasonable to respect a military that takes the role of 'Home Guard', defending the shores against attack. There are times when action abroad is justified, but such action should be under UN authority, not unilateral.
Very interesting hub. I doubt in the current world environment, or any that will exist in the near future, that we could do without a military. (not that you said specifically that we shouldn't have one) I agree completely that being in the military is merely a career choice (since we don't have a draft). I also agree that if we would spend less time blindly honoroing the military (and all they do) and begin to treat it more as any other chosen job, fewer kids would be duped into joining.
In some instances, the military has saved our A**es. In other instances, scientists, physicians and others have. I suppose you could argue that many businesses and so forth deserve more of the honor for allowing us to live our current lifestyles. I guess people tend to think in very simplistic terms. It's easy to say that we owe our freedom to the military, but our health and financial condition probably have as much to do with it in the long run. If our society survives, it will be due in large part to having a well educated population/workforce, not solidiers. I would not advocate insulting members of the military, for me respect is always the way to go. I'm thankful for everyone who does their job well. On the other hand educating kids and dropping the pretense that the military deserves special honors would seem wise.
Excellent discussion topic!
The issue is not PEACE, but FREEDOM. If people were truly free to engage and control their government then wars would never take place...diplomacy would rule all foreign relations, absent the despotic and vicarious violence so many envoys and bureaucrats incite. For TC to claim that you would be executed for writing this hub if it were not for the American military is a semantical statement which intends to allow the cart to lead the horse.
What is imperative to understand is the fact that monarchial entities, leaders and governments have been cultivating a world of war and romanticized violence for millenia, and have been manipulating entire populations to satiate their sick pleasures and maniacal grasps for power. Eugenics and mass culling have also been used as justification for this fetid mechanism.
You are absolutely correct in seeking to pierce the stony black heart of this subject. I commend you for having the courage to leave the fringe, hurdle the superfluous and take a poke at the core.
The imperialistic authoritarian attitude of this nation's government, bloody with pride, savagely theistic and wetting the appetite of colonialism, has been stomping on and burning the Constitution of the United States for centuries...while good Americans die in vain for their patriotism and honor. Worse is that it is all for money and power.
Hitler burned the Reichstag to gain dictatorial powers from a nation frightened by his alleged "boogeyman". The USS Liberty was a self inflicted wound, Cooked up by Johnson and assisted by allied Israeli fighter jets. Pearl Harbor was a false flag event fostered and allowed by a complicit United States Government and was used to garner support by the populous for the nations entrance into WWII. As well, war has been typically financed and supplied by both sides all throughout history. Many huge American corporations supported Hitlers war machine and profited from, and assisted in, our own soldiers deaths. Comanies such as Ford, General Motors, Bayer, BASF, Michellen, IBM, Standard Oil, Exxon, Dupont, Western Carbide, General Electric, Westinghouse, Gillette, Singer, Eastman Kodak, Coca Cola, ITT...the list is long and extremely distinguished. As well, G Dubbyas grandpappy, Nazi supporter Prescott Bush was right in the middle of it (however there is scant physical evidence of that...secrets of the tyrannically powerful). Moreover, the bankers, financiers and law firms Sullivan and Cromwell, JP Morgan and Dillion, Read and Company, Union Bank of New York owned by Brown Brothers and Harriman...managed by guess who...Prescott Bush. This bank was intimately linked with support of the Nazi war machine and Thyssen, the German steel magnate which financed Hitlers rise to power. Prescott Bush's exploits were rewarded mainly by his dealings with this man and these rewards are what launched Bush senior in the oil business...to begin his intimate relationship with the Saudi's...and the Bush family's close friends the Bin Laden's.
These sadistic power hungry maniacs will meet their end some day, but it will only come from a public awakening...and will stop them dead in their tracks.
World Peace is a fallacious quagmire of complacency cooked up by authoritarian entities and posits to attempt curtailing violence by silencing all opposition. Seek World Freedom, or risk decaying in a peaceful prison.
Excellent hub!!!
Thanks for all of the great comments.
I just see family members who have served and now YOUNG family members essentially following in their footsteps. It pains me. It pains me that the rhetoric veterans throw out and the examples they set for their kids are expected to go unchallenged. We must respect them, yet my POV must be silenced. For if I bring it up I am being disrespectful to them. Screw that - the lives of kids dying for absolutely nothing are more important than thoughtless tradition.
For urimidden and composed....My father left his blood in Germany...My brother left his blood and flesh in Vietnam. They fought because they were called upon to do so.
It is obvious that neither of you would fight for anything because you find fault in everything with your opinion based excuses. It's easy to sit and whine about the wrongs of the world. Have either of you done antything at all to change the world?
My father and brother saved lives...liberated people and more than likely took the place on the battlefield of men such as yourselves. Yes, war is evil and war is instigated by powers of greed and selfrighteous ideals but that has nothing to do with soldiers who are left to fight the war.
Big words won't stop little bullets, therefore someone has to do the job and soldiers do the job. If you both feel so strong that the United States Military is and always has been corrupt with worthless cause, I would suggest that you both find another country to reside in.
If you both really believe in what you both say....act upon it....do something other than bitch about it. Talk to Veterans organizations. Write your Congressmen and Women. Go to high schools and colleges to state your case. I would tell you both to fight for what you believe in but then...you would have to be soldiers.
"Blind faith in your leaders will get you killed."-Bruce Springsteen
You have NO idea what I do or don't know. Thanks.
No I don't...why not list a few things you have actually done or are currently doing to change the problem?
Because A) This is not about me (or you); B) I try not to be self-serving; C) I don't feel the need to.
It's not self serving at all....I have worked on many issues throughout my life and still do. I worked on copyright laws many times with many organizations. I've worked on eating disorders, industrial safety and environmental issues.
Many times, these were on a small scale but I was always there to help in some way. I was simply asking?
That's fine. Don't take this the wrong way, but I have no use for a conversation that lists the things that you and I "have done." I am not sure it adds much to the larger, more important issue.
I believe that "actual work" on an issue is the key to solving the problems of an issue. If we know the work that is being done...we get a much better focus on repairing the problem.
Perhaps if you are involved in changing the problem...stating it here on hubpages would get you some help?
perhaps.
I am new to HubPages. I have enjoyed watching this exchange. It takes me back to the Vietnam years when I was actively involved in the same debate. Now that I am well into the backside of life, I have a hard time discerning who is right and who is wrong, or even caring which is which. I think I have reached the point where those that I value and respect are those who commit to what they believe but at the same time are willing to listen and, beyond that, to put themselves in another's shoes. That's why I surprised myself by voting for Obama, despite my differences with some of his policies. I'll give you one more perspective, an older man's perspective, which may sound nuts to those of you who are younger and more passionate than I. I believe that our fights really stem from a deep, unconscious need to understand each other. The Muslim man and the Christian man ultimately want the same things for their families. Distance highlights supposed differences. Only when you are next to the man do you begin to understand his life. War is one way to bring people together. In the short run, it is ugly. In the long run, it is healing. It is no coincidence that our closest allies after the smoke cleared from WW II were Japan and Germany. Sometimes, things are not what they seem.
What I gather from this Hub is...
The Military treats its people like garbage (fact), so let's all join in and do the same.
Very nice.
exactly. i wish i was able to gather the answers so quickly and efficiently. maybe you can impart more of your wisdom on the rest of us.
It is true that a large segment of the population is not served well by serving in the military, but it is unfair to imply the majority of veterans do not seek a college education after their stint in the military because of the military. My dad and grandpa went to college because of the GI Bill for instance. Many of the people who are attracted to signing up in the military in the first place were not college bond, so they are lead to believe that the military is the only and best route.
I am going to take a middle ground here and agree with some of what you say, and not all. Whereas I do not believe in guns and killing people, and I think most of the wars we fight are not good, I do not believe in looking down on any profession. In our current world their is a need for the military to some extent, and it will not just go away over night. Hey I think we should do what the Europeans are doing by moving towards being less militaristic, but that begins with education.
First you must reach the segment of the population that sees the military as their only route. Many recruits are not interested in college, so get out in the community and let them know about other alternatives such as trade school.
I'm not opposed to the military or with treating vets fairly. The latter MUST absolutely be done. A nation must acknowledge those that sacrificed themselves in some way for it.
However, to hold the military to be above reproach is deeply cynical. There is no reason for it to become a sacred cow. You see it in the way that the military is the first rhetorical crutch any politician uses. We support the troops. The troops are noble, and such. Also, if military values, which tend to be more authoritarian by necessity, are allowed to bleed into civilian values, then that's counterproductive to our society and makes us prefer militaristic solutions in place of rational ones. The effect of a war every generation on the United States has been tremendous in terms of how this affects morality, family, community and so on.
No one's arguing that the military is unnecessary or that the troops are evil. Though there are some. Prominent scapegoats for wider malaise: William Calley, Lynndie England. To suggest that to want a separation of civilian and military life is somehow offensive to the people that died in war is stupid. Plenty of people have died for your freedom, not just in the military. They weren't sacred cows. They were real people. Don't go elevating one over the other.
I am sorry, but I couldn't help to notice that you quoted Bruce Springsteen. If you are basing your ideologies on the basis of a singers quote and not on conventional wisdom I think that is logically some kind of fallacy. What conventional wisdom, or masterful thing that Springsteen has done that makes him an expert on what does or doesn't get you killed? Has he been killed from "blindly" following his government?
My god. What foolish dribble. I am a 28 year veteran so far and I am PROUD as hell to serve in the Military even if I cant stand the present commander in chief. It is precisly because of people like myself you have the right to speak your peace and enjoy your freedom's instead you could be speaking German or even Japanese. But alas...dont worry you will soon have your chance to speak Korean, Farsi, or even Arabic.
Estopher, you realize you're arguing for groupthink, which is a fallacy, yes? Also, someone that has been killed, blindly or otherwise, cannot sing or write or do much of anything.
Robert,
Did you know my grandpa was an American World War II veteran and grew up speaking Arabic? My great-grandparents immigrated to America from Syria, so I can assure you there are many Americans that speak other languages other than English. In past generations it was popular to assimilate and to forget about your culture, which can be seen among the Mexican-American population here in California. Many people are proud of the heritage and want to learn Spanish, but some parents complain that their kids are too ashamed to speak the language. This happens in cases where they marry men outside their culture that tell them they must assimilate. Personally I wish I had grown up speaking more than one language, and I really do not see your point about how freedom is equating with only speaking English!
I do not agree with everything calebd said either because I think he was implying that I hold the military above reproach, which I certainly do not. He probably did not read my comment honestly, which is what I feel. I just think we need to take a middle road where were do not venerate war, but at the same time we should not look down upon anyone. I am just not into snobbery of any kind, and the extreme peace makers and the extreme war makers both have tendencies towards it. It is better to find common ground.
Nope. Not what I said. I'm hardly an extreme peace maker. I'm perfectly fine with the military's existence and war and other such things. However, I believe military values should not be placed above civilian values, which is part of the foundation of most modern Western countries. To see the military as more than it is is like seeing the church as more than it is, neither of which are core American or Western principles. Democracies generally run on these beliefs. The original hubber is arguing that the military should not prey on impressionable young people for recruiting purposes, nothing more, from what I can tell. I'm not sure I agree totally. I find it supremely distasteful that our culture venerates and fetishizes military service while at the same time, does not do right by veterans via plenty of programs like stop-loss.
Nothing wrong with speaking a couple more languages. Demands of the global economy and such. This notion that we're about to be colonized by marauding Farsi speakers or Korean speakers is ridiculous hyperbole.
Calebd,
You implied I was not holding the military above reproach, which is a highly unfair statement. I did not mean you were an extreme peacemaker, I was just referring to my personal reaction to how this hub says we must look down upon the military. Surprisingly I do not believe in guns or war, but I just do not agree with looking down upon anyone.
You personally? No clue how you got that impression. Also, I'm not sure how you can not look down on the military and ignore the fact that the military use guns to wage war, which you do look down on or at the very least, have disdain for. That's a cognitively dissonant position to take.
I disagree calebd because I do not agree with using guns in my personal life, but I know there are times when the country needs to defend themselves. My point is crystal clear and I am certainly not using cognitive dissonance and do not really believe in it either :). Anyway, you do not know what is in my mind and heart, so I guess I should not have been sensitive about your comment that was right after mine, because it felt like I was being chided.
I will preface my post by saying that I have served in the Military most of my adult life. I cannot tell you that I was a good soldier, but I can say that I did my duty when it mattered. Many of the points that you bring to the surface are valid, but many are baseless, and I will tell you why...
"I know that it is harsh, but I think we need to start reconsidering how we view the military as a society. We need to start looking down on it as a career choice. That might sound harsh, but young people coming home in body bags and seeing the world as an act between good and evil is just a bit more harsh from where I sit. Youngsters ought to be discouraged from joining the military... from entering a line of work where you ultimately being trained to kill."
This comment is so wrong for many reasons....
We do not live in a perfect world and someone has to defend our way of life. Although our government has in the past, and has in the present been responsible for atrocities, it is a government that is based on "We the People" A professional soldier understands this…he will die for this. This is what it is to be an American Soldier. Not all the B.S. spread around by wanabes, and neverhadtheballstobes such as 99% of the neocon pundits that preach from the pulpits of cowardice and fear.
The fault of failure to see these tenants of our society does not lie with the military; it lies with the people who fail to elect leaders based on their qualifications. The chief failure of “American” society is to elect our leaders based on popularity. Ronald Reagan sucked as an Actor, but he should have been given an Oscar for playing a president. That man could have sold a Rabi a ham and cheese sandwich on the Sabbath and the Rabi would have smiled as he drank from a glass of milk because RR sold it to him. Because of that administration’s failures, and because of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rove we are in the mess we are in today. Thank the gods for intelligent men like Obama.
A real conservative would see that. Unfortunately the real conservatives have been labeled "Liberals" by those that have the most to gain by Oligarchy, or totalitarianism, or simple greed. Vietnam and Iraq had, and have nothing to do with defending the Constitution of the United States. Why is this important? It is important because every member of the Armed Services must swear an oath to defend it. Anything outside of the defense of the Constitution is outside of the oath of service, and therefore unlawful. In other words, a soldier is not obligated to go. This is one of the MANY reasons why the Bush Administration needs to be taken to court.
Your comments on training soldiers to kill? Well, all I can say is that over 80,000 thousand Americans died to gun violence in America last year. If you look closer at that horrifying statistic I think you will find that less than 1% of the perpetrators of this violence were soldiers.
Did you ever consider that maybe our "way of life" is one of the atrocities or is at least responsible for the atrocities we commit. Think of oil... think of Gulf War I, which George H. W. Bush basically admitted was not about liberation; rather it was about the flow of oil and that the "American way of life is not negotiable." If people think this is worth dying for and that this somehow fits into the definition of freedom, so be it. I think it speaks for itself.
And the notion that soldiers die so I can have free speech is a tad antiquated. There has always been an evil doer held up as the poster child villian to garner support for wars that America fought or joined for strategic, self-serving purposes.
For your defense, not for invasion over trumped up reasons...I think I made that clear.
Bush and his cronies are the ones responsible, and it is up to the People of the U.S. to bring him to justice.
The military is there to defend you, not to make money for DICK Cheney.
From a soldier to an ignorant citizen...your welcome.
Imagine life without our military. Chances are all those people in the pictures with the hateful signs would be executed. Careful for what you wish for!!!
I geuss you sleep well at night... Imagine total anargy...
and the flipside...
you are right too...
Go live in Russia you anti-freedom communist. Semper Fi!
Yes, I knew it would not take that long for the inane "freedom" hater lines to start coming.
I opposed the Vietnam war, If you read my Hub on " A SMALL CABIN ON A MOUNTAIN " it will save space here. I paid the price for my beliefs and would do it again. And when I was ask why I did not leave America if I hated it so much my answer was and is, I love it enough to tell it when I think it is wrong, would you leave a child you love just because he or she makes a mistake, no you would not but you would tell them they are wrong. Gandhi believed as did Jesus and many civil rights and freedom and peace leaders in the power of love over war. And so do I. And for the person who wrote that I would be shot for writing what I do if it where not for the solders, then I would say "what profit a man if he gains the world but loses his soul?"
Two of my finest friends chose not to go to war in Vietnam....each spent two years in prison....both have respect for those who chose to go into battle. It is a personal choice. Jesus also spoke of a Roman Soldier,"No greater faith I have seen in all Israel." Neither of my friends would ever state that the soldiers of Vietnam or any war died in vain.
Neither of my friends would ever state that the soldiers of Vietnam or any war died in vain.---
exactly what does this anecdote add to the discussion?
larger issues, people. bigger picture.
I believe in those who fought believing in what they where doing. I have great respect those men and women. I have 2 very good friends who are Vietnam war vets. I also spent 2 years in Federal Prison, by choice, I was never going to be drafted, but I forced then to change my status as I wrote in my Hub so that I could say no, because many men and women had no way out, I was not going to take the easy way out, I also spent 6 months in solitary confinement for refusing to conform once they had me inside.
So you want a bigger picture? Try looking at Arlington...it's filled with men who die for you!
Will all due respect, I find the 'they believed in what they were fighting for' line to be a flimsy one.
We could go through a long list of people who followed a leader and believed in what they were doing. Some from the same time period as Vietnam.
You take the line too seriously, I do believe that some of those who fought really believed, they may have been brain washed or,just really believed in the war, so no it is not flimsy, 55,000 men and women did not die, not believing
I understand now. :->
You take the line too seriously, I do believe that some of those who fought really believed, they may have been brain washed or,just really believed in the war, so no it is not flimsy, 55,000 men and women did not die, not believing
Firstly, a foremostly, I commend the author for writing this article. Yes it is very controversal, but then people do need to openly discuss it if we are to ever see any change.
I was raised as one of those people who respect the military without question. Soliders, Sailors and the like have made a choice to serve their country; though I am not confident that joining is always a selfless act of patriotism. Or at least not during my time in the US military being post Vietnam and pre Gulf wars. It may be true that some of the enlistees during this time were selfless in their reasoning, but it is also true that many joined for the GI Bill, Scholarships, and Career training; those of the latter I would see as selfish moreso than selfless.
I am not anti-Military, but I am anti-War. The current wars in Afganistan and Iraq are unjustified and illegal under international law. Neither of these countries committed acts of war against the US or its allies. The Bush administration changed American policy from that of the "Defender of Freedom" to the "Aggressor of Freedom". The unprovoked military invasion of these soveriegn nations should never of been supported by the American people, but they wanted revenge against someone, any one, for the 9/11 attacks (who cares if it was these countries or not - someone had to pay for it).
When I joined the military I did so in the belief that we were there to stand for America, to defend her from all enemies foreign and domestic. I felt pride in America. Then George W Bush made this fundamental change in US policy in respect to the waging of war; all American people (everywhere) were betrayed by their government. America no longer stands for peace, it stands only for American industry. Then the Administration gave us the Patriot Act (the most UNpatriotic act ever passed). I've stopped waving the flag. Benjamin Franklin once said, "He who trades liberty for security will end up with neither." Well guess what? America traded away liberty for security. America best hope that Ben was wrong.
Back to the question at hand. Is Military Tradition "bad" for society? No, I don't think so. Military tradition is celebrated in many national anthems (for example the US National Anthem has "...bombs bursting in air..."). Their traditions are held dear to us when we lay to rest our fallen Fire and Police officers and veterans of wars past. It brings a sense of national pride and belonging to its people. It binds us and gives us a common identity which we are able to stand up and claim membership to. It is the very fabric that makes up the foundation of our nations. Without military traditions, we might as well all go back to the caves.
I don't know what is right or wrong........ I'm just trying to be happy........
LETS BE HONEST!
A Govenment cannot exist without A means of defense.
Defense cannot exist without a military.
military cannot exist without support.
support cannot exist without people.
people cannot exist without a means of support.
A means of support cannot exist without money or medium of exchange.
"our" medium of exchange cannot exist without a Strong military
a strong military cannot exist very long without a group of patriotic citizens.
I skipped over all the comments but I am sure you got a backlash for this hub. I think you were way off base with this one as someone from a military family with my brother serving in the Air Force, I can say its given him a path in life that he wouldn't have found otherwise. I think you are missing the bigger picture too, to put something ahead of yourself, and for others they believe their country wants to be there to help and defend those that are weaker than them. This is the attitude I grew up with and I'm sure many go in believing this is what we do as humans. Its unfortunate our government plays so many people for their own manipulative will. I think as citizens, we need to challenge our government, not our military members and families, or the attitude to serve one's country when essentially all they want to do is contribute.
that's so admirable that unfortunately given where we are it is naive. in order for the ideal you suggest to be genuinely put into play, we would need to overthrow many of the power structures that exist in America. i think a grassroots effort to stop as many people as possible from joining the military is more feasible. join the freaking peace crop for goodness sake... why are they not giving out 10 and $20,000 bribes to do that... yet you can pocket that cash for joining the service?
well, you can't support a family on peace corps and not everyone is lucky enough to get a dime or an acceptance into college. I think the reality is for most people that join is that they are poor and the money is a major incentive, but I think the chance to do things other work at Fred's mechanic shop, is much more inspiring. The military is the only way out for many, you must be missing a major vibe of this city if you don't realize there is an emptiness and a hoplessness here in many of the ghettos and barrios and the only way out is to sign that contract to at least have a chance. How the government deploys our troops is the real issue.
I am well in touch with that "vibe" as you call it... more than you know. But the notion that the military should even be considered a viable 'solution' to these issues is absurd frankly. We need to deal with root causes not send people off to some lesser of two evils if the military could even be considered that... plus since I have spent time in the type of neighborhoods you point to I can tell you that they are not all quite as bad, wholly, as the local news attempts to make it out.
I won't bother with this, because you have your opinion, and I have seen what I have that have shaped our views. I think your view that positives cannot happen by joining the military is beyond naive, but if you want to stick with it, go ahead, its your opinion, and not reality.
I wish I could chat all day with you on this, but I got to head home from work.
of course positives can happen, but again you're basically dealing with anecdotes, small picture stuff like so often happens in these types of debtates.
i am thinking about the larger impact our tradition of respecting the military as noble and such has on the broader society... the cultural impact and real consequences it has in our collective lives.
i have a cousin who is career military... probably never killed anyone... has seen the world... has never had to fight... has learned a lot... will retire comfortably at like 40 or something like that.. but that's anecdote... means nothing in a deeper, more broad discussion that i was attempting to bring about.
Laughable, as are the "protesters" you hold in such high esteem. the vietnam protests were so big because they (protesters) came from the protected class and sudenly were forced to actually serve for their freedoms. More were personaly fearful for their own safety, than any "Moral" outrage at the war. Who do you think in this day and age is going to be standing there when some out of control regime decides to come and try to take this country over? We who have served already know who can be relied on to defend, and they don't come from your hallowed college campus. Never forget, you get to sit back and come up with your theories only because someone took your place, you can whine all you want, but your hands will never be clean as long as you avoided your duty and someone else had to or wanted to go in your place. your argument is not only a slap in the face to the country you live in, but to every man/ woman that put on the uniform and showed up to do their part. How do the eligible men of this country standby and watch the military have to use women in their place? the women in todays military understand more about what it takes to be a man than all you crybabies put together. I'm sure you will say that's a sexist remark, and probably in your PC world it is. But to me it is fact. And fact that your thinking and those like you will let anyone show up in your place as long as you aren't inconvenienced and your delicate sensibilities aren't disturbed. The word is coward. And there is no way around it. You can dress it up, call it "militaristic tradition" or whatever nice words you choose, but at the end of the day it is your own self preservation that concerns you. Nice try of trying to justify your gutless theory though, it made a nice little story. You encourage people to look down their noses at service? snobby elitist, pampered waste of human life. That is what you should be looking down your nose at, but then it would probably be your entire alumni and close friiends. I Find that most that skipped out of their time to stand up and do their citizens duty, even at this late date drop back to their stand that they are just more moral than the next guy. as I said befor that only is the words a coward uses to justify telling his kids why he never served. Most that I know of carry a certain shame to this day, and the real ones will tell you. They just were not willing to put their futures on hold or god forbid get hurt. They just didn't think it was worth it, and they can live with that decision forever.
As a proud former member of the military, I love hubs like this. They serve as an example of how good a job the military has done in establishing such a stable and secure country that people are free to not only question, but condemn the military and those who serve in it.
There are several (as I'm sure you are aware) countries around the world where things like this would get arrested at best, and at worst... well I'm sure you get the idea. Your condemnation of the US military, while I'm sure sincere and impassioned, serves only to act as a testament to it's effectiveness.
Again, great hub.
You’re hub started out good. I agree that blindly supporting any organization is bad the military included. Later you went on to say that people should no longer join the military. While it is in a way good that we now live in a time and place where people believe an army in unnecessary the only reason we live like this is because of what the military has done in the past.
If you honestly believe a military is unnecessary I suggest you go to a county where warlords have taken over and see how you enjoy you’re life there. I think everyone needs some perspective once in a while.
Great Discussion.
I respect individual soldiers greatly. I also know of cases where military training has turned a young thug into a good citizen. There are cases where the reverse has happened I am certain.
Overall I tend to respect the military though the closer they (the top brass) get to the politicians the less respect I have for them.
Throughout history the politicians and other leading lights of society have used the idealism and self sacrifice of young people for their own ends. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq come to mind for the US. I remain convinced that diplomacy was deliberately scuppered int he case of the Falklands (and I am not saying who I think scuppered it) in order to gain an election victory for a party that had become extremely unpopular.
Perhaps the last "Just" war was world War II. I will leave the decision on that to the historians.
Historically after the politicians and businessment got what they wanted the serivce personell were treated like dirt. The British government tried to ban disabled ex-soldiers from the Falklands victory parade.
In "Healing Beyond the Body" Larry Dossey devotes many words to why we as a species are addictied to war and notes that NO war could happen if the women imply said "No Nookie if you join the army MATE!!" or "You will not be my son/ from the moment you join" (Yes I know that might result in an army composed of gay orphans)
To sum up. I believe we as a species should respect the military, but we should NOT let the political-industrial elite use that to manipulate us into supporting the use of the military for the wrong purposes.
Finally, though we need the military for defence against external threats, I think the major threats to the UK and US are not military. We have a recession caused by greed and incompetence, even if there was no deliberate plan to create a recession in order to let its architects gain power and money. We have unemployment caused by outsourcing work to countries that lack the cultural and skill base to do it properly, and we have a growing distrust of polticians of all parties, something the poltiicians seem keen to hasten along, and we have a steady erosion of freedom in the name of freedom.
Quite clearly our inference powers vary.
Never did I state that "people should no longer join the military" or that a military is "unnecessary." An accurate summary/paraphrasing of what I said would be that as a society the military should be treated more like a necessary evil than as something we hold in all reverance and nobility in our culture. Doing the latter only does a disservive to many young people who join thinking that the objectives they will help carry out are just... when in all reality many are unjust and some are merely lip service to get them to join and obey.
Composed - I just dropped in again to see how you were faring with this one. I think there's a lot of willful misunderstanding in some of the comments. This always happens when you poke a sacred cow. The US needs a military but it doesn't need military adventurism. Behind all the rhetoric, the US military is not really protecting the American way of life. Or if it is, it has signally failed. It is (in recent years) protecting the interests of the super-rich global capitalists who care nothing for anyone except themselves.
Military defense (home guard) is necessary. As are sewage workers, farmers, miners and candlestick-makers. Society shouldn't put any group of workers on a pedestal. Hollywood doesn't help either!
Well-stated.
I will do my best to refrain from further comment in this hub. Do my best, I stress. Others feel free to comment away, even if you misconstrue what I say either via passionate reaction or just ignorance. I appreciate all of the comments, but especially those that display sound rhetorical abilities. Even the guy who claims this hub proves the point of how valuable the military is...
Because we all know that if it were not for the US Military we would all have been forced into communism (even Joe McCarthy - that would have been tough for him to swallow I am sure) or we would be speaking Arabic or we might... or we might... or we might...
Very interesting...I followed Paraglider over here, who pretty much summarizes my approach to the issue. What I would have to add to the discussion is that as you have noted, in some sectors of the US, the military as a career choice IS looked down upon. Usually among the college bound, ie. And I agree completely--there is a sort of brainless assumption that a young person joining up will automatically be lauded--and this ingrained in society because it serves the powers that be. Yet poor kids buy into it--and to SOME, I suppose there is a payout in training and education. The same could be done with a national service or Peace Corp, of course. It is also interesting to note that the Military as it stands (inspite its debacles of late with the oil interests) does do a lot of humanitarian assistance.
I know this at a close range, since my partner is a former army officer. One who does not encourage his two sons to join the military, btw. For reasons enlisted here. He also relates that many of the benefits recruiters tell young people about are obfuscated. In example--it is hard to extricate yourself once joined, if 'you are needed' for some campaign. You do not always have control over what area you'd like your career to go (as an officer, he wanted to be a physician--they needed an artillery officer). The money for college afterwards is extremely byzantine to get to, and much of it goes unused.
What I see among the older generation is this kind of WWII mindset--grandfathers and uncles died--their lives must not have been taken in vane, but for a great cause. That is the tradition (no longer neccessarily valid) that has been passed down in military families. But that world doesn't exist anymore (if it ever REALLY did).
Lita - we have Homer to thank for the glorification of the military. If he hadn't been such a genius, we'd not be in this mess.
These discussions are inevitably political, sentimental, emotional and psychological. They need to be historical. Peace talk is as OLD as the original villages in pre-history. Feminine sentiment and those who are emotionally inclined (mercy based thinking see: Kabballah) is the mentality that mends the booboo and sews up the wounds. Judgmental thinking is the realization that the military keeps society intact.
The sign that society is generally getting ready for a real drubbing is that the military has been TOO SUCCESSFUL. So, yes, peaceniks and the mercy oriented are all around -- why because of historical military success.
When will that change? When the whiners suffer. Then somebody deciides to defend society and the whole cycle starts over. Our country has never been invaded. America was a netralist society in the 30's and in fact PRO GERMAN in most areas. That was just before Pearl Harbor. The fact that there is an internet, and this person can trumpet their brainless bliss tells you that America is in for a drubbing. Don't fret. Its just the cycle of history. And this persons grandchild will be a green beret. Not because of the brainless bliss of this person, but because of the hard edged pen of history.
Last time I checked, the military is all volunteer. If someone wants to join the military, so what? One could make the same argument for lawyers and law school. Lawyers often make money off of stupid things, like someone burning themselves by hot coffee. Or, cases where an individual that chose to have their stomach shrunk, found a refrigerator in the hospital, ate too much, and their new stomach ruptured (staples came loose), then sued the hospital.
The real problem in this country is personal accountability. People should be held responsibe for their actions.
Joining the military is a choice (which we have in this country). The military is a reflection of our society, both good and bad.
Just the fact that we can speak openly, protest, etc., is a reflection of our freedom, often provided by the military. For instance, I have a hub on Asian girls and, guess what?, there is not a single visitor to the hub from China. Hmm...I wonder why?
Sweetiepie,
Did you know my grandpa was an American World War II veteran and grew up speaking Arabic? My great-grandparents immigrated to America from Syria, so I can assure you there are many Americans that speak other languages other than English. In past generations it was popular to assimilate and to forget about your culture, which can be seen among the Mexican-American population here in California. Many people are proud of the heritage and want to learn Spanish, but some parents complain that their kids are too ashamed to speak the language. This happens in cases where they marry men outside their culture that tell them they must assimilate. Personally I wish I had grown up speaking more than one language, and I really do not see your point about how freedom is equating with only speaking English!
First of all I never said anything about only speaking English. I was only making a comment that if we lost WWI/WWII/Korean war or any future war we would or may be speaking that prevailing language. I thank your grand father for his service a true hero.
Not to digress from the subject at hand too much I will say that it was a "requirement" to assimilate to the society in which you lived and no so much for individual reasons but for the society as a whole. It only benefits the nation when all the people within the nation work together for the good of the country. This is not to "take away" ones culture but their are ways in which you can retain your culture yet upholding and strengthen the society by rallying the one thing that makes us uniquely American. Our Language! It is no different for any other culture. Take for instance Arabic. Those that speak Arabic believe that it is the oldest and most beautiful language in the world in script as well as speech. This gives Arab's a unique culture. It is the same (was) for America as well, including economical, social and political reasons.
In response to another blogger somewhere here. The military IS an ALL voluntary organization. In WWI and WWII throngs of people between 16-60 volunteered whatever their personal reasons because they believed in something bigger and better then themselves.
During the Korea and Vietnam Era less people saw the need to volunteer. Probably mostly because of progressive ideas taking hold in America. Progressive" is not always a good thing.
In any case since Vietnam we have had an ALL Volunteer military. I for one believe that ALL Americans should be compelled to serve in the armed forces for a minimum of two years between 18-30. This would instill some sense of ownership in their country and maybe open their eyes to more then their own self serving lives.
I also believe that ALL immigrants should be compelled to serve as well to prove their allegiance to this country. I know that some would believe that this is extreme but would they say that about other countries that not only demand it but depend on it?
I am very thankful to my GOD that I was selected to be born in a country as great as America. I am never forgetful that I could have been born in any other despot part of the world. My only sadness comes from the thought that my America will soon become just like the rest of the world and we will no longer exist as any kind of a power.
But even so......in HIS hands we live. MARANATHA....even so come Lord.
Composed, I've been by here a few times to follow the arguments. I echo Paraglider's comment: it was courageous of you to take on this topic. I have debated it over and over since 1969, when the British troops occupied Northern Ireland. A military can be useful -- disaster relief, peacekeeping deployments, positive contributions. I am disgusted by the disgraceful neglect of veterans here in the US. But I cannot get away from the idea that war is wrong, wrong, wrong. I respect anyone's right to choose the military as a career. I don't respect the government's misuse of the individuals who have made such a choice. In short: it's several topics all rolled into one. Namaste! Teresa.
A long time ago...in a land far, far away, I had the privilege of serving with some of the finest men I have ever known. Some are still there, some have returned to their sweethearts and former lives...all remain in my heart...
I have met protesters in the 60's and 70's... bearded, poncho covered, useful idiots with the IQ of an ice cube...they couldn't lick the boots of any of those men, and to agree with an earlier commenter, they were simply cowards using pseudo-intellectual argument to cover their terror at being drafted...it was party time for these folks...plenty of grass, ass, and like-minded people to comfort themselves with...
I had to smile at your quoting Springsteen as an appeal to authority....perhaps you should have quoted Chomsky...he has some lovely sentiments that you would feel comfortable with...one of which is " If we don't believe in Freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all "....nice, sentimental quote, which I endorse for this Hub....
"Our society should snub their noses at those who make the decision to join. Our society should demand that minimal dollar amounts are spent on the military with money redirected to give children a real chance at an education, at all levels."
You are not very bright at all. If you were smart in the slightest, you would understand that our military threat to other countries is the only reason you have your freedom. If we didn't have military, we would be bullied for everything we have. While I can agree not every military action is called for, others are neccessary. You cannot have freedom without war. I have no clue what bubble you are in. Everyone that enters the military sacrifices individual freedom for the protection of our country while you are sitting in your comfortable house writing articles.
To Tom Cornett:
For what reason do you first, and ad nauseam, insist that anybody who does not consign to your beliefs, is doing nothing about it, or not making any important contributions to the world? And what do you do, Tom? You consistently exibit a propensity to attack people personally with accusations you have absolutely no basis for. What does this accomplish?
As well, you get all offended when the truth is illuminated, then casting shadows on your backwards, ignorant way of thinking. If there were not so many people in this country who piss and moan about their family's involvement in various wars, claimiing it was some form of reverent contribution to our combined freedom and libertarious existence, then there would be more people insisting that the idiotic and despotic power structure causing these asinine conflagrations, engage in the diplomacy required to create viable solutions crucial for a convivial existence of the humans on this planet.
You truly intend to pretend I am some kind of coward or pasty skinned whiner merely because you are pissed off and resentfully ignorant. You appear to be the one who is doing nothing to help change the idiotically romanticized violence and murder saturating this nation.
My father was an author, inventor, and viable contribution to this country, as am I. Furthermore, I spend hundreds of hours per month indefatigably pursuing a host of difficult and personally dangerous exploits aimed at changing this country and its abusive morbidities...you certainly have no idea!!!
Andrew says:
7 months ago
Seems like you want a world full of peace. Are you willing to follow the Ten Commandments and follow the teachings of Christianity? Without a foundation of peace and a higher being, I guess we should follow you.
Have you ever spent time in a small town in the midwest and observed the culture of people there, or has it always been in large California cities?