My Political Compass II
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Politics, a topic on many subjects. Or a subject with many topics. I'll elaborate on a few more in this second hub with my Political Compass as my guide. As you can see I have a quite Libertarian view on living in a society. I strongly feel for the Buddhist/Karmic view on life, which means that we should take full accountability and responsibility for our actions. I don't want to impose my views on others and in return I resent other imposing their views on me. This explains my position towards Anarchy rather than Totalitarity. At the same time I feel we have the obligation - for our own sakes - to care for others. Hence my position to the left. In the previous hub I addressed taxes, healthcare, defense and education. This time I'll zoom in on crime and privacy.
Are you for or against the death penalty?
See results without votingCrime
Unfortunately we can't rely on people to live good. People will make mistakes and there will be people with bad intentions. Any society will take measures to enforce the law. Obviously this calls for a well equipped, trained and motivated police. Although money in itself is not a motivation, we can be quite sure that underpayment will not attract the right people to join the police.
When it comes to punishment I think the sentence should be aimed at protecting society and prevention, not at revenge. Second, I think that punishment should be civilized. How can you judge people for things that you do yourself? You can't tell people not to steal if you're a thief. So you can't convict a murderer if you kill yourself. In any truly civilized country the death penalty is out of the question in my view. There are lots of arguments against the death penalty, but even if there weren't this would be enough for me. A civilized society does not commit crimes. And killing somebody is a crime. Period.
This is not to say that I propagate ‘soft punishment'. Any act of violence (be it physical, mental or emotional) should be severely punished. At the same time society should take measures to make sure (or at least as probable as possible) that it doesn't happen again. And for this we must carefully look at who committed the crime and why. It's a well known fact that abusers in most cases have been abused themselves. So if all we do is lock ‘m up for a number of years and then release them again, nothing will have changed. And then you should ask yourself: who has gained from this punishment? Has society become better or safer? Has the criminal become a better person? If the answer to both questions is no, you should reconsider your penitentiary system.
Crime is a disease that cripples society. And with diseases it's important to attack the root causes, rather than just fighting symptoms. So you should focus your attention and energy on preventing that somebody will become an abuser. Society should eliminate the social circumstances that drive people into crime. Rather than aiming for economic growth, a society should aim for balance, fairness and collective well being. Sure, a person decides to go into selling hard drug or robbery; it's his or her personal choice and responsibility. But if all that person ever gets to see is selling hard drugs or robbery as the way to survive then we, the society, have failed too.
To conclude this section on crime, I think that for the less serious crimes (i.e. crimes that do not involve violence) we should not ‘waste' prison space. Theft, fraud, scams, the punishment for those crimes should ‘hit' the committers where it hurts: in their wallets. Sentence them to repay the damage they have done and the same amount as a fine to cover for the costs of prosecution and law enforcement. Don't put them away, make them pay.
Are we going back to 1984?
Is this freedom of expression?
This is not freedom of expression. It's aimed at offending and demonizing people. It does not express anything other than hatred.
Privacy and personal choices
Everyone should be free to live life the way they want to, as long as this doesn't limit others in their personal freedom. It's not up to the government to decide whether people should or should not believe in any god, whether they should live their lives alone or with others. People should have the freedom to make their own choices. If they want to live together with somebody of the same sex, by all means let them do so. If they want to ‘formalize' that relationship and make arrangements for the future by getting married: no problem. It's their life.
If you want to go to church every Sunday or pray to Allah five times a day, you have my blessing. You should be free to pray and assemble. Just like you should be free not to.
And you should be free to do this and much more in the privacy of your own home. Every individual has the right to his or her personal space and society should respect that. The integrity of your personal space should prevail at all times. Obviously this freedom does not mean you are free to commit crimes. So if there are convincing reasons to suspect you're up to no good, society has the right to intervene and investigate. But only if there are reasons to believe there's something wrong. Discussions I have when I'm using my mobile phone are private. No authority has the right to intrude. Scanning my phone calls, the sites I visit (whether in real life or electronically), eavesdropping on the conversations I have; they're all violations of my personal integrity.
Which brings us to the freedom of expression. With freedom comes obligation. Being free to express my opinions is not the same as being free to offend anyone I disagree with. There's a delicate balance to be kept. Today this balance has been severely distorted; the result of which is polarization. Rather than using our freedom of expression to create understanding, we're using it to alienate people and create hostility.
At the same time the balance has been distorted at the other end too. Any person should be considered innocent until proven guilty. Yet in current society we are all considered to be a suspect. Our personal space, our privacy is seriously violated. The conversations we have on our mobile phones, the internet traffic we generate: it's being scanned this very minute. And if you do so much as utter or write the word "bomb" somewhere a flag will go up and you will have attention drawn towards you. Even if all you were doing was telling this friend of yours that the girl you met last weekend is a hot sex bomb.
Education
Again? Yes, again. In the end it all comes back to education. We need to educate people to show them non-criminal ways to survive. We need education to teach people to think more about what they say, why and how. It's all very nice to know that Tokyo is the capital of Japan, but what does this knowledge add? How will it help us in being better human beings? True education teaches us that this world is also inhabited by the Japanese, who have a different history, different culture, different customs and a different view on life. True education teaches us to respect that and learn from it.
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Comments
Immigration might be an idea for a next hub, G-Ma ;) Tough topic indeed. But basically it boils down to the same. We (everyone) must obey the law. In some countryies (like my own) there are a 'few' laws too many, but still... We agreed to them and they must be maintained. That's why I don't come out as a complete anarchist: any society needs a basic set of rules to live by. And any society should enforce these rules in order to survive.
Thank you for reading and commenting *hugs*
Hey man, great hub and much food for thought.
So about those "convincing reasons to suspect you're up to no good, society has the right to intervene and investigate." which comes first "the chicken or the egg".
I DO enjoy a good debate as I'm sure you do?
avagoodday
I am getting old and slow!
How did I miss this wonderful hub until now.
You can think for yourself. Congratulations!
I agree with you in every word I read. Please write more hubs, you have a clarity in your writing that is gold to read.
I can hardly believe that you have covered so much so well with so few words.
You have put much of what I would like to say, only light years better!
I’m always available fr a good debate, Silverfox :)
I’m thinking along the line of a person is innocent until proven otherwise. And I know it’s a delicate balance and not always an easy decision. I don’t have instant answers to everything, but I do think that we’ve tipped the scale when one cannot even take a bottle of water onto an airplane. You have a good day too, agvulpes.
Why thank you, earnesthub. I am humbled by your words. I guess my ‘handicap’ can also be my advantage. English not being my native tongue means that my vocabulary is less extensive as that of many others.
Thank you for reading and commenting.
touche, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that one . I was trying to find out if there is a divining point of when reasons become convincing. Two comparative cases 1) 9/11. 2) Just last week here in Melbourne men being found guilty of offences which if they had been carried out could quite possibly have caused more casualties than 9/11.
btw you need not have any concerns about expressing yourself in English.
I would dearly love to be able to express myself as well in a second language.
It is a fine line, I fully agree. However, I suspect that there must have been signals concerning those guys in Melbourne. In which case an investigation is absolutely justified. But nowadays we don't investigate. We just assume anyone can be a terrorist.
Many thanks :)
HI Ananta
These hubs are becoming more and more diverse and hard-hitting as time goes on! Law and Order is a big pet topic of mine. Like you, I'm against the death penalty, and yet I don't think that a life-time's incarceration is always the answer either. Firstly it's expensive and a drain on society, and secondly, a life behind bars is a lot for a man to bear. Perhaps in time society will come up with a better solution to imprisonment, but it's hard to imagine what. Perhaps one day we'll have penal colonies on Mars, who knows?!
I don't agree with you about burglars, fraudsters etc. however. Imprisonment is possibly not the solution, but neither is hitting them in their pockets. Many people turn to crime precisely because they are suffering financial hardship. You might well drive them to commit further crimes in order to pay the fines!
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could teach people right from wrong before they got into trouble? I'd like to see a return to the days when parents were better integrated into their children's lives and were giving them good role models. In the Uk we have a big problem with knife crime among juveniles, but all too often the kids who are committing these atrocities are still at an age where once parental supervision would have been the norm.
BTW your English is better than most English people's English!
It boils down to who is the "We" It's not me or most of friends.
and yes there were signals. btw 4? other men were equitted in the same trial.
Great hub! What has bothered me for a long time about the death penalty and punishment in general is that we have many, many excellent studies that have shown time and again that punishment is not a deterrent to crime. The death penalty does not deter criminals. Incarceration does not deter criminals and even helps them learn from others so they can commit bigger crimes when they get out.
What does deter crime? Education, prevention, consequences. If you educate people and enable them to make a decent living doing something they like, most people will be happy with that and will lead productive lives--there will always be a few who are drawn to criminal activity no matter what, but in general, if a society provides people with better options they will take the better options. When you systematically deny entire groups of people access to education, money, and goods, you create criminals. Drug laws also create criminals and fill our prisons up with people who don't need to be there. Legalize drugs and half the prison population goes away. If you criminalize drug use, you just fill up prisons, you don't stop drug use. People who are going to use are going to use. And I love your take on white collar crime--make them pay it back, period. That makes so much sense. Why is it so difficult? Thanks for a great hub. (I'll shut up now! lol!)
Hi Amanda, I agree with your observations. But I didn’t want to make things too complicated, so I put out my rules of thumb rather than complete plans with full coverage. Life imprisonment is a high price to pay, both for society and the convicted. Although any type of punishment will come at costs.
With regards to burglars, etc. I understand your point. And in a number of cases there is no other option than imprisonment. But I didn’t mean to just fine them and then let them be. You will have to make sure that they actually work for that money, so that the punishment is a double-edged sword. Society will have to invest in integrating these people properly into society, so that they will be able to pay that same society what they owe.
We in “We assume everyone is a potential terrorist” refers to the governments. Governments that we (the people) have elected, I might add.
Don't shut up, Pam. Your comments are always welcomed here. I couldn't have said it any better. Our justice should be aimed at detering crime and educating those who commit them. There should also be an element of justice, of course. So it couldn't be that you just walk away after a lousy year when you've been found guilty of murder.
G'day Mate, recharged the old batteries and all that. Loved Pam's comment but I feel that she is being a little too general. One good thing I find about the death penalty (we do not have it in Oz) is that you know that particular criminal will not be able to commit that crime again?. Man convicted yesterday of murder in Melbourne streets (pleaded guilty) gets 35 years . Surely that must be an argument for the death penalty.
Welcome back, agvulpes, we all need to recharge. As a matter of fact I was recharging when you wrote your comment :)
First, I think that there are always exceptions to confirm the rule. I don’t think that one approach to white collar criminals will always work. But as the starting point, I’d fine them by rule. You can always deviate from that rule if necessary.
Second, death penalty. I so disagree :) There are numerous arguments.
Here in the Netherlands we’ve seen a couple of cases of people having spent time in jail undeserved. Even though in court those cases appeared to be clear, guilty as charged, several years later new evidence came up and those people were released. Now suppose that we would have killed these people?
Which brings me to the most compelling argument in my view. That’s what you (society) are doing: you are KILLING people. You’re nothing better than the people you’re convicting.
Funny thing about death penalty is that it’s almost a religious discussion: there’s no end to it.
Ah, I so enjoy such an exchange of ideas. I do believe that we do reach concensus on most things, and only disagree around the edges.
I have never quite understood that expression "exceptions that confirm the rule"?. I am still not convinced that a person who takes anothers life has not foregone his right to belong in our society. Perhaps if they were sentenced to true life terms, never to be released I would be convinced. I am a firm believer in "an eye for an eye". How do you show justice and bring closure to victims families etc..
btw "himachal" has disappeared off my radar?.
Himachal? Ehhr.. I have no idea what you’re referring to, I’m sorry.
I do enjoy the exchange of ideas too. Especially when it’s done with mutual respect.
I’m a firm non-believer in the eye for an eye principle. I think it’s primitive and not even natural. Not to mention far from social.
If a wolf in a pack strays and doesn’t adhere to the rules, the animal is outcast. It’s not killed, it’s simply banished. So a non-civilized, primitive culture would do something like that. There is no creature on this earth that kills its own kind for reasons of lust or justice other than men. I strongly feel that both are reprehensible.
Second, I am a strong believer that we have the moral obligation to help people. We must help the victims (but killing the killer does not bring their loved ones back) and we must help the wrongdoer. And killing the wrongoer doesn’t help anybody, doesn’t make any life better. Simply putting away somebody in exile doesn’t improve anything either. And I think that our objective should be to make things better.
That’s from the human, civilized point of view.
From the rational point of view, it’s like Pam already mentioned: death penalty does not have a positive effect on crime figures. So in the end there is no benefit, other than the PERCEIVED feeling of justice of some. Even though I can relate to the feelings of the (loved ones of) victims, I still feel that their (temporary) feeling of satisfaction is not a justification of committing a crime in response to a crime. Not to mention the risks of punishing an innocent person.
Himachal was a fan and I recieved mail of a published hub. now he has just disappeared, I do not understand Hubpages well enough to know why?
I do not know if your analogy of the animal kingdom is correct because I believe that they do not have such emotions as e.g. assassins, greed in the monitory sense, drug induced murder,to name just a few. also is not a banishment away from the pack a sentence of almost certain death?
I find it hard enough to pay attention to the hubs I write myself, read the hubs of others and comment and participate on the forum, so I’m afraid I don’t pay very much attention to my fans. I hope this doesn’t sound arrogant or negligent; I simply don’t have the time…
Aha! Indeed! You’re absolutely right, agvulpes. The animal kingdom doesn’t have assassins. We do and we detest it. Rightfully so. I detest killing. I think killing another being for any reason other than survival (we do need to eat and the fact is that we are omnivores) is morally wrong, very wrong. Now, if somebody ignores that and does make a killing, is that a justification for me to give up that principle? No way. I’m not going to do something (ending another person’s life) I truly and intensely reject, just because this other person has no moral values.
Almost, indeed. That’s why I don’t think a civilized society should banish members from the pack. But still, those wolves didn’t kill the abandoned one. The animal does have a chance (however slim it might be) to survive by itself.
I agree HubPages is very time consuming.
Opinionated yes, negligent no, arrogant I'll leave that for other to decide?.
Good convertionalist definitly.
I think that we have reached an "en passe" my friend. So until next time goodnight.
btw can u suggest any good forums?
Arrogance is in the eye of the beholder ;)
It takes two to tango, agvulpes, especially in conversations. Which – like all good things – come to an end. And I agree, I think we’ve pretty much said it all and can agree to disagree.
I can’t help you there, my friend. I used to visit Dutch forums for quite some time, but lately I mostly come here. Maybe it’s an idea for a hub request?
Ananta65, as a cop's wife, I have strong opinions about crime and often found myself agreeing with you. My husband, the cop, has advocated for community service and restitution for non-violent perpetrators instead of prison. The problem is monitoring, but with today's technology that has become easier.
Nice to know how you think! =))
Monitoring has indeed become easier, but at the same time today we so trust in technology, that we tend to overlook the human factor. We can't expect perpetrators to learn anything if all that happens is them being watched. Here in the Netherlands the community service verdicts are a laugh. Convicted perpetrators have to do only a few hours of community service. I think those sentences should be a lot higher than they are today.
yes, and keeping track of these adapt criminals is not easy, nor is rehabilitation, still, they need to be producers!! =))
I agree with a lot of what you and Pgrundy said about penalties for crimes. The only thing I differ with you on is that when a person is so jacked up as to be nothing more than a murder-machine or child-molesting animal, they should be put down. I realize some will say it is more humane to lock them in a tiny box for their whole lives instead (and this assumes actually doing it and not giving them access to possibilities of escape), but I think solitary confinement is cruel and expensive. You said "crime" is a disease. We don't coddle our cancers or our viruses, why coddle murdering lunatics? Rehabilitating child molestors always sounds like such a great idea until they get your kid after they are "better."
I agree, Marisue :)
I get your point, Shadesbreath. Anyone who assaults my daughter is dead, I can almost guarantee that. But that’s my personal, emotional and INITIAL response. I do understand the emotional side of the matter. But then the ratio kicks in. Because what’s the score after I have killed the son of a b*tch? Whatever he has done to my daughter will not be undone. While I myself have turned into a murderer. I strongly believe that murdering is morally wrong. Regardless of whatever circumstances.
You don't have to kill him. I'll do it for you. I have no qualms about it. That's the beauty of a society like ours, we have each other's backs. See, while your intitial response is personal, all I can say is so is everyone else's. We all feel that way about our daughters. So why would we try to pretend that if its someone else's daughter and not ours we're suddenly beyond that? I'll happily shoot the guy who does that to your kid or anyone elses as easily as I would one who hurt mine. I would neither bat an eye nor feel one instant of remorse. I would sleep like a baby afterwards, knowing the world was slightly cleaner.
I strongly believe murdering is morally wrong. Also when you do it, Shadesbreath. Besides, it makes me an accessory to murder.
I think we should agree to disagree on this one :) I can relate to what you write. And in a way it ‘scares’ me that deep down inside I might feel the same way. It wouldn’t surprise me if I were able to kill anyone who does anything to my daughter and sleep like a baby afterwards. But does that make it right? To me it doesn’t.
Great hub, Ananta65! I'm right there in the lower left quadrant of politics with you, so I pretty much agree with everything you've said here. As for the discussion about the death penalty and rehabilitation, I am also against the death penalty for several reasons:
1. Death is not a penalty, it is something we will all experience eventually, and there's no sense in making people jump ahead to the finish line when they still have lessons to learn on Earth.
2. Killing someone will not undo any of their crimes (aka two wrongs do not make a right).
3. It's inhumane.
But this does pose a problem, as many have commented. How do we deal with prisons that are busting at the seams and the high cost of keeping people behind bars? As you mentioned, it begins with societal reform and education reform--teaching people about real values, morals, ethics, decision making, personal responsibility, cause and effect, and the value of life, instead of having them memorize and regurgitate "facts" from revisionist history books. For those who have already slipped through the cracks of our system and committed horrendous crimes, I think prisons should be set up as working camps/farms, where prisoners grow their own food and tend to the chickens, cattle, etc., and also work on projects designed to increase the sustainability of each prison by leveraging the skills of inmates to earn profits, a portion of which can be paid out to the workers in the form of a prison-based currency.
Although we all make our own choices in life, I believe the vast majority of prisoners had to deal with hardships that I can't even begin to imagine, so it would be much better if we responded to their wrongdoings with love, compassion, and understanding, instead of poisonous injections.
Just my personal opinion. :)
I addition to that Melissa, I think we 'invented' punishment to confront people with the consequences of their actions and LEARN not to do it again. There's not much to learn for a dead person, is there?
I like your idea about prisons and the philosophy behind it. There still is the concept of punishment, as they will be deprived of their freedom and other priviliges, yet at the same time it contributes to both society (if there self-providing, they won't cost as much) and to the inmates. Thank you for reading and commenting.
Thanks! I actually just came up with the idea after reading other people's comments. And good point about the futility of saying "This'll teach you!" moments before snuffing out someone's life.
It's in our nature to judge. And civilization should rationalize our judgement in my opinion, rather than just acting according to our primary reactions to things.
G-Ma Johnson says:
15 months ago
Agreed totally agreed...but...there are many people who move from their native country to other countries and want things the same as in their country..Phooie on that...whatever country you decide to go to eccept it for what it is....
People run from all sorts of things and for all sorts of reasons...not all have the choice to do as they feel they are free to do....Not all are born in a society that respects the life of each person..OMG I could go on and on....
You have opened up a can of worms for me...there are so many people and so many different phases of life we all go through...laws are needed to mantain order...not that they are all perfect or even do their job...But honest people follow them...anyway enough from me....Love ya...G-Ma :o) hugs