Predestination Vs Free Will
85Predestination Vs Free Will: Opening Thoughts
Predestination Vs Free Will is one of the oldest and most intriguing philosophical arguments in human history. Many philosophers also consider it among the most important questions. Does predestination, also known as determinism, rule our every decision or our very cosmic fate even before we are born? Is the universe determined and mechanical, or not? Or does free will make more sense than predestination? Do we have the ability to make individual choices? Is there nothing actually set in stone? Is this a question that demands quantum physics, or a distinctive line between omnipotence and omniscience? These bring up incredible questions of the role of destiny, whether all life is destiny or can there be bits of destiny among a life filled with otherwise free will based decisions? Are the Calvinists right about predestination, or are the adamant free will believers correct? Is there any way to really truly know?
There's not a chance of me offering a stunning breakthrough to these questions that are as old as philosophy itself, but maybe this will be a great starting point to get some great open thought going about both sides of this eternal struggle between free will and determinism.
Predestination vs Free Will: Do I Have Free Will?
|
A Contemporary Introduction to Free Will
Price: $16.82
List Price: $19.95 |
|
Free Will (Oxford Readings in Philosophy)
Price: $28.04
List Price: $35.00 |
|
|
Free Will (Hackett Readings in Philosophy)
Price: $15.11
List Price: $18.95 |
|
Four Views on Free Will (Great Debates in Philosophy)
Price: $26.29
List Price: $33.95 |
|
|
On Free Choice of the Will
Price: $6.65
List Price: $8.95 |
|
|
Are We Free? Psychology and Free Will
Price: $31.96
List Price: $39.95 |
Thoughts on Predestination
By predestination, we go by the definition that an individual does not make their own decisions, big or small, but that every decision is already decided upon whether by spiritual or cosmic forces. Predestination is not solely a Christian doctrine, but it is most often associated with Calvinism. There are many other denominations and theologians who believe in the doctrine of predestination, or the reformed doctrine of predestination, but it is often associated with Calvinistic schools of thought.
There are many famous theologians who strongly believe in predestination in some form or another, including:
- St. Augustine of Hippo
- Pelagian
- St. Thomas Aquinas
- John Calvin
There are many others, but these are some of the most major names. Of course the argument on predestination predates Christianity, indicating that man has always struggled with questions about his place in the universe.
This was the Calvinist form of predestination, as it was explained to me (while the person was a theology student, I'm not vouching for complete accuracy of this interpretation, but this seems at least near the mark):
"It's predestination because no person is capable of making the choice to accept God because God is perfect and people are sinful. Therefore, people are naturally going to be repulsed by perfection. The only way for them to choose God is for God to choose them to choose Him. That's why it's predestination, because only those who God chooses to be saved can accept Him and become saved. You can't make that choice if you had free will."
Being the well adjusted and respectful individual you all knew me to be, I proceeded to not accept that explanation and argue for several hours, my point being how could this possibly be more loving that allowing free will?
There are some problems with this theology. The obvious being that if only people pre-chosen by God can be saved, and if there is a Hell, then God has created people knowing that no matter what they do, no matter how much they might want a relationship with God, they can't have it and they're going to burn for all eternity. That's a complete contradiction to the idea of a loving God, though it can work if you throw away the idea of an all loving or all just God.
Personally, this idea repulses me. That may not be fair, but the idea of a Deity like that who creates souls to torment them for eternity (keeping in mind this is based on the ideas of Calvinist theology of the afterlife) makes me want to actively go against everything that Deity stands for rather than embrace it. I also think many of the serious problems with "Christians" who go around with "Holier than Thou" attitudes and who are fanatical about being "right" or better than others is because of this type of theology that makes them feel entitled and justified no matter what. There's never any personal responsibility because in their minds everything was already predetermined.
I think this is radically missing the point. There have also been scientific arguments on the nature of predestination, suggesting that no human action can be independent, but every choice is based on hundreds if not thousands of influences that can be from past situations to upbringing, to an imbalance in the strings of the universe - although many also argue that the inherent "fuzziness" of the Universe on the Quantum level suggests that maybe this is not a completely mechanical universe, which at the very least would make free will possible.
Philosophical Books from eBay
|
|
The Great Debate: Predestination vs. Free Will DVD $20
Current Bid: $7.99
|
|
|
Predestination & Free will Book (excellent)
Current Bid: $4.50
|
|
|
Predestination and Free Will by David Basinger, Rand...
Current Bid: $11.95
|
|
|
Predestination and Free Will: Four Views of Divine Sove
Current Bid: $10.84
|
Thoughts on Free Will
Free will is the theological idea that all actions by individuals are not controlled or forcefully coerced by a Deity or higher power, but that individuals have the right to choose right or wrong and make every day choices in the direction their path will take (although this doesn't mean that the decisions can't be heavily influenced). The Christian philosophy of free will is often also referred to as Arminianism, based on the thoughts and writings of Jacobus Arminius, a 16th and 17th century Dutch pastor and theologian. This is not a completely correct assumption, as Calvinism and Arminianism have a lot in common, but disagree mainly over predestination and free will.
In Christian thought, free will still acknowledges that salvation comes from the grace of God alone, but they reject the notion that this means that all salvation is predestined. Otherwise, what about "backsliders?" If these guys seemed to become saved, then fell back into old ways, are they saved despite living bad lives? Were they never saved to begin with (which leads to the question of why or why not and did God just use this individual with no intention of ever allowing him salvation)?
Free will is naturally going to be the more popular choice for many people just based on the fact that many individuals hate the idea of being controlled. From the pure philosophical stand point, many say that free will is the only theology that makes sense with a just or loving God, and that the choice has to be there to accept or reject salvation.
Free will is also used in a more general sense, for individuals who may be asking through psychology or even science like quantum physics or metaphysics, do humans make independent choices? Is it even possible? At what point does an influenced choice become controlled or destined? Is it free will, or predestination, or somehow both, when a person has two choices, but their inherent beliefs, past experiences, and world view will always cause them to choose choice A over choice B?
Free will is easy to jump to in a knee jerk, "I make my own choices," reaction in the same way that predestination is easy to jump to by individuals who are obsessed with being set apart, always right, or don't want to take personal responsibility.
Can the Concept of Destiny Be Invoked by Pictures?
Click thumbnail to view full-sizePhilosophy Video Blog: Free Will vs. Determinism
The Question: Determinism or Free Will?
Great Conviction of Church on Free Will/Predestination Paradox
Predestination or Free Will Links
- Why I Hate Predestination
A great blog post on one person's thoughts on why she hates predestination. This is Christian theology based, but it's a great practical look at one person's beliefs on the necessity of free will. - Predestination Paradoxes in fiction
Great works of literature listed by Wikipedia as featuring a predestination paradox as part of the plot. - An Unlikely Conclusion to Free Will
In a note of irony, philosophy argues predestination, but quantum physics argue the more likely situation of at least limited free will.
Free Will and Predestination: What Are My Personal Beliefs?
Personal Thoughts on Free Will Vs. Predestination
My natural instinct is to jump on the Free Will bandwagon. I hate the idea of predestination as it has been described to me in various Bible studies, philosophy classes, or other theological conversations. Yet, that wouldn't be open thinking by me if I just patched together theology based on what I felt like without challenging those beliefs and giving the other side a fair shake.
So what have 200+ theology books (and yes, Richard Dawkins counts because choosing to not have faith is an expression of a belief based system in itself), philosophy books, and other books across every spectrum and ten years of concentrated study taught me? Well these are my beliefs at this point. My guess is at this point the bulk of it is more or less set, as you don't spend a decade of intense study and not form an opinion strongly backed by philosophy, thought, theory, and fact.
But that's the beauty of the free will v predestination argument: there's always more evidence and argument that you can add to both sides. As of right now, here's a somewhat simple description of what I believe in regards to this argument:
I believe both are true in a working functioning paradox, but the extreme of both is not true. I do not believe that every moment of every soul's life is predetermined prior to it happening. This does not mean that there can not be an omniscient deity. There is a huge difference between omniscience (knowing what will happen based on knowing the choices that individuals will make) and predestination (knowing what will happen because all of it is set in stone).
Some argue otherwise, but I respectfully disagree. You might see a relationship and know that it's going to end because you know the guy will get bored and cheat after six months, but seven months later that relationship ended not because you knew it was going to, but because the man made a choice that ruined it.
You knew what was going to happen, but it wasn't set in stone. So if that can be possible on the human level, how could it not be possible on a larger scale involving God?
But I don't believe in the extreme of free will, either. Sometimes there might be destiny, but when I say destiny, I mean a moment or event in which it was meant to happen, but choices must still be made. For example, not to get cliché, but if you believe in the "one true love" thing (before I get any e-mails, no, I don't believe that there is only one true love for every other person, but this is a great example).
Suppose on October 25, 2012 that person will be a bummed out freshman at "C" college taking a walk wishing there was a funny stranger to show up, cheer the person up, and then talk deep philosophy. Maybe you're meant to be that person. Maybe that moment is destiny, so to get there things are "bent." One college administrator just has a gut feeling to offer you more scholarships, another less. Colorado starts calling your name instead of Maine, for some reason an interest in the meaning of life hits you in high school and you learn to think deeply, etc. Maybe there are two hundred small influences that get you to that moment, where based on your beliefs and the other person's, it's love and happy ever after.
Or you take a walk, choke up, and don't say anything and he/she walks on by.
That moment might have been intended (predestined, even), but choices still have to be made. I'm okay with the idea that in my life there might be times, places, certain conversations I'm supposed to have that change what would otherwise be, but then I'm otherwise allowed to make my choices of my own free will the rest of the time. I'm not even convinced that these "predestined" moments are set in stone.
I might hide behind the fuzziness of "paradox" until further notice on that one :D
I find too many "coincidences" to ever fully believe in completely uninfluenced and total free will, but by the same token to believe in any type of deity that isn't evil, cruel, petty, or vindictive then some type of free will has to exist. And if you're atheist, then I would assume based on the metaphysics of the universe that free will is the more obviously defensible choices of a universe that is not 100% clear and mechanical.
So that's where I stand on the free will/predestination argument. In a working paradox both exist to some extent, though day to day I believe it is overwhelmingly free will, however heavily influenced.
Your Free Will v Predestination Thoughts
So which are you inclined to belive: Predestination or Free Will?
See results without votingThe Predestination Argument
|
|
The Myth of Free Will, Revised & Expanded Edition
Is free will a myth? This author certainly argues that the free will argument has no legs to stand on.
Price: $8.00
List Price: $8.00 |
|
|
Predestination
Want to know about Predestination? This book is a great place to start learning about the predestination argument.
Price: $11.79
List Price: $18.50 |
|
|
Reformed Doctrine of Predestination
The arguments of predestination have been shifted and refined through the years, and here is the doctrine of reformed predestination that many "reformed" Christian churches follow.
Price: $8.50
List Price: $14.99 |
|
The Bondage of the Will
"The Bondage of the Will" is an intriguing philosophical weigh in on this question.
Price: $9.00
List Price: $14.95 |
|
The Great Debate: Predestination vs. Free Will
The title doesn't lie: "Predestination vs. Free Will" is really one of the most intense philosophical arguments of our or any times.
Price: $13.95
List Price: $19.95 |
|
|
What Are Election and Predestination? (Basics of the Reformed Faith)
Election & Predestination: A great book to add into this classic philosophical argument!
Price: $1.01
List Price: $3.99 |
|
Grace, Faith, Free Will
Predestination with Calvanism and against Free Will. A good compare & contrast philosophy book.
Price: $14.93
List Price: $19.99 |
|
|
Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God
Eternal Predestination: that's what this argument is all about, isn't it?
Price: $35.00
List Price: $35.00 |
PrintShare it! — Rate it: up down flag this hub
Predestination v Freewill Comments or Thoughts?
Hi Keely,
Thanks for the comment! This is definitely a touchy subject, as I found out early on during my Christian walk that even saying "I don't think free will vs. predestination is really that important in my daily walk," was sometimes enough to be condemned to Hell forever by a "true believer." That said, I always thought it was an interesting debate and one that should be given deep thought to.
I can see how the common misinterpretation of Calvinism could take place, and the person who tried preaching it to me came across overwhelmingly that absolutely everything was predestined and that no one who believed in free will could possibly be saved or understand any scripture. Obviously this point of view left a bad taste in my mouth.
There is a lot of reference to predestination in scripture, but I think there is very little to the "all encompassing predestination" that some people teach. I really enjoyed your thought on why everyone starts as a free will christian. I'm not sure I completely agree with it, but that shows sharp insight into the question.
I would respectfully disagree with your comment about predestination prior to St. Augustine, however, as most letters we have from church elders in the late first and early second and third centuries don't discuss unconditional predestination unless its coming from the gnostic sects. A strong sense of predestination came earliest from the gnostics, while earliest letters from the church showed a "conditional" or "inculcated" predestination in which God would awake within you the desire to be in his Grace, and if you followed that line with any desire at all then God would remove the obstacles for you to accept Him and become saved - perhaps predestination but far different than modern versions.
In fact in irony, many of St. Augustine's contemporaries wrote of his views as disturbing because they were contradictory to orthadoxy, and influenced by Manichee sectual teachings.
Plus, I'm still learning ancient Greek and Hebrew, as I'd like to see the words in their original languages before being set on any interpretation.
I probably went on way too long - I have a bad habit of that when I find something really interesting :). Thanks again for the great comment, and while we disagree at this point, I do say that your point of view on predestination seems far more reasonable (and defensible) than what many others have tried to convince me of.
Thanks again for stopping by!
No problem! What I was saying about Augustine was that he just organised what was widely accepted as church doctrine. That was something I read in a few calvinism books, of course they're going to be biased, but the reality is that total and absolute free will arguments weren't in existence until much later. Paul himself writes on he aspect of God's elect in his epistles.
I think you were referring to "hyper-calvinism", or absolute and total sovereignty. This differs from election in the sense that God 'controls everything like robots' instead of merely controlling the righteousness of men. If you believe that man is controlled by sin his sin so much that he is dead to it, then there's no other explanation than God changing their hearts first.
My father has an MDiv in ancient languages and I have three friends studying ancient languages currently, each of those four men are strong calvinists. I find it ironic that every pastor I've listened to who has not studied ancient languages thoroughly advocates a strong arminian stance. It's not a gut instinct, it's the Word of God :)
Man wants a part in his own redemption, it's simply our nature. Even more proof that we cannot live righteously outside God's power.
Hey Keely,
Good to see you back! I had heard of hyper-Calvinism, but didn't know what exactly that meant versus regular Calvinsim. For the most part my concerns on predestination I think often aren't from the philosophical thought itself, but from many of the unsupported arguments/beliefs that are often practiced as a result of it. I hate when predestination is used as an excuse for a person to justify all their actions or all their beliefs and to trash someone who disagrees with them - there's not way God supports that because of the obvioius fact that no person is perfect.
I'm okay with the people being inherently evil (I really see no other argument one can make against this argument) and with God being necessary to make the decision and change the heart, it's the celebrating/exhalting oneself other others who (according to one interpretation of doctrine) whose souls were made by a loving God for the sole purpose of being rejected by said God and burning for all eternity because they're not "elect."
Shame interactions with a few zealots of any belief can really burn you on certain ideas instinctually for the rest of your life, isn't it? Thanks again for commenting - this is always a contentious subject so many people read, but don't want to open themselves to being blasted by others who disagree.
We are clearly responsible for our sin, not our righteousness! I think we agree on that because of the explanayion you've given. You are again referring to the "hyper" end of the ordeal. Since righteousness is non-existant outside of the Holy Spirit, you cannot do anything independently "good" as a result. anything that looks good is merely an exhibit of your sinful pride in the end. You have every ability to choose evil, though. That much is perfectly clear in the world today.
Read the book "The Potter's Freedom" and come back when you're done. It will help open your eyes to the truth about election and the doctrines of sovereign grace. While we can essentially screw our lives up, it hinders not the ultimate plan of God. The will of God is not where you are, but who you are. If His will is our santification, it is only natural that that process is carried out by the Spirit in the lives of His followers. If you do so independently, the best result you can hope for is failure. :)
Excellent hub! Our belief systems tend to shape our reality and our "life paradigm", through which we filter all of our experiences. I am impressed with the 200 books you have read while searching for truth. I'd love to see a hub reviewing them. My favorite definition of destiny: That's when your dogma gets run over by your karma! You should write a full-length book on this subject exploring the depths of the belief- I'd buy it!
Hi cegainesjr, thanks for the comment! I've always loved philosophy and paradox, and one good thing about being a voracious leader is that 200 books are much easier to digest over 15 years :) I love learning, and I'm always interested in hearing new and different arguments, even if I don't agree wtih them. The learning is the point, I think. I love your definition of destiny! Thanks for visiting!
I truly believe we start off wanting free will, then believing that our decisions were made by free will, and eventually, if we are seriously wanting to know God, He shows us He led us to Himself! and is using everything, even evil, to bring about His will.
Wow!!!! That is an awesome God!
Even disallowing the existence of god (which I tend to do), there is still no completely clear line between free will and determinism. Everyone is a product of their past. We like to think of our planned past (education, employment decisions etc) but we are also a product of our last boiled egg. If it was too soft, we might be feeling irritable and as a result dash off an ill-considered email that could have life changing consequences. Both the Uncertainty Principle and Chaos Theory destroy the notion of absolute free will, but they destroy planned determinism too. So, like so many big yes/no questions, the answer is neither. Good hub though.
Hi Paraglider,
Thanks for the comment! I tend to agree with a lot of what you're saying. I think there's a certain paradox to the control vs. free will and there really isn't one completely triumphing over the other, but a degree of percentages that leads to each person's individual make up. I think we're along the same lines, just describing positions as different. I would say both exist (as opposed to neither), but neither exists in complete and total form. It's a fascinating argument to me both on the philosophical and religious level, as well as the sceintific and how the universe works level. Was that "random" decision I made based on 29 years of past and subconcious influence, or was it a "random" decision that took place because a universes's "string" from a far away galaxy passed through a planet and me and that zap changed my normal behavior? Or was it just one random decision?
Thanks for the thought-invoking comments, always welcome here!
Paradoxes - yes. I have to sit in the middle line by experience. I would easily have said free will in the beginning, particularly after deconstructing conditioning that limited my own free will. Only then could I really understand the difference between social conditioning and free will. Then seeing how events occur that did not seem to fall into my free will category, I had to ask "who or what is pulling strings here?" It's a fascinating subject even when taken on the experiential level. Nice hub.
I read the hub, but not the comments, so I apologize if this has already been addressed.
I think you may be relying too much on religion in the arguments against free will. Predestination and determinism aren't actually exactly the same thing. Predestination is the belief that God has determined everything that will happen, and thus it cannot be changed. However, determinism can exist independently of any diety. The non-religious argument for determinism basically goes like this: As humans, it is impossible for us to know the workings of everday matter. However, the universe is made up of atoms that exist, and will interact with eachother based on laws of physics. The laws of physics are not based on chance. Because of this, if you could somehow know the position of every atom in the universe at any given time and know all the laws of nature, you could determine everything that would happen from that point on in the universe.
As humans, we are influenced by our genetics and past experiences. These influences determine our personalities and the choices we make in everyday life. Soft determinism allows for the existence of free choice. You can choose to do what you wish as an individual. However, you can not choose what you wish, because our wants are determined by our personalities, which are formed by influences outside of our control. Though we can make a choice in a given situation, because of who we are (which is out of our control), we WILL necessarily make that choice. Thus, we do not have free will in the sense that we can alter our future.
One argument you mentioned against this was random activity on the quantum level. Although random quantum activity is still debated, I don't think that it proves free will. If random activity in our brains, random being the key word, could influence our actions, we would not be any more free. The possible different choices in any given situation, though not determined, would still be based on random chance, and not on any inner notion of free will.
In a nutshell, the world does not have to be omnisciently pretermined nor do individuals need to have some kind of "destiny" to be deprived of the ability to alter their futures.
If you have any questions, or wnat to discuss this more, let me know.
If god decides everything then we should all be happy and doing the right choice. Why would Hitler exist then? Why would God place him on earth? Could the reason be to help advance our society. Thats impossible as the only way we could have advanced in was warfare technology and better protection. God truly intended us to be loving and kind to others. Could the reason be to punish us. But then that would lead us to the fact that God does not have the power to control us and that free will exists. The Torah is proof that God does not have the power to control us. God gets very angry in the old testament, and kills many Israelites. Why would he get angry if he knew everything and could control everything? Because God is angry that people aren't listening to him. Predestination has a flaw.
God wouldn't use evil if he was in power. There is always a way to do it nicely
You can't be sort of pregnant, you are or you aren't! Same with predestination and free will, there is no middleground.
God ended up regretting making Man, quoted from the bible. Why would he regret making man if he knew everything. "God regretted giving Man freewill as he can no longer control him." God rewards those who are faithful to him like Noah and the arc. God would make everyone faithful towards him by somehow "bending" their destiny. But he can't. God tried three times to convert people to believing in him. #1 Abraham the first jew (Judaism) #2 Jesus to convert them back to the "real way" of following god (Christianity) #3 Mohammed was visited by the angel Gabriel to convert people to the real way of following god (Islam). Why would he try so hard to convert people if he could simply bend their destiny? Islam means submission, because they submit to god's will. Why would they need to submit to gods will if he could do it himself. Truthfully predestination would be a lot easier for God. This proves that God can't guide us through the path. He can only put us at the edge of a forest hoping that the way we make is the right way.
you could be talking about a different definition of predestination, because i can't see anyway how freewill & predestination can both co-exist.
I apologize if my comment doesn't make too much sense. It was the only way i could transcribe my thoughts.
@thurstjm, really good comment, I always appreciate really good arguments on either free will or predestination. The basis of the arguments are definitely slanted towards the religious, as that's where the debate between determinism and free will tends to take place most often and so that's the arena in which I most often engage with this argument. I gave a nod to the science, the quantum physics, the subconcious mind's overwhelming influence over us, because I wanted others to be aware of these arguments and this part of the debate, but also I'm still learning more about these topics, so my emphasis is more with what I've known and studied. Part of what's interesting to me is how one person can believe in either free will or predestination, then explain that stance to another person who then argues with the very definitions of what either free will or determinism really are. This ambiguity is something that keeps the arguemnt interesting. I appreciate the comments. Thanks for taking the time to join the conversation!
@ Forbes. I think part of what's so interesting/hard about the free will & predestination arguments is that it's hard to nail down a specific definition for either one. From the religious side, the idea of predestination seems to come mostly from Paul, as far as I can tell, since that term comes up repeatedly. Now if you're Jewish, this isn't a problem at all theologically for obvious reasons. If you're Christian, then the issues begin. Personally at this point, and this is a great oversimplification, I do believe there is a paradox. If you want to call it free will with a lot of "interference," then I could live with that definition. Thanks for commenting!
Predestination vs. Free Will
At birth, we know we are predestined to die.
The question of either has less to do with religion & everything to do with universal principles. The religious implication, as presented is humankind’s interpretation of the words & their written meaning.
Predestination is merely another way of saying “natural state, natural path, natural gift, etc. It is a universal truth about whom each of us is & what each of us can contribute to the world and ourselves. If we decide to follow this truth, we will fulfill our individual desires, i.e. purpose & meaning, leading to a life of true fulfillment, but predestination in and of itself does not affect individual decision-making. Your life is your decision.
Free will within the context of universal principles is always ours to control; we can choose to decide or not decide anything, anytime, anywhere. Ultimately, the road we travel is of our own free will. As we navigate thru life, we are open to many influences… popular culture, family, friends, the world, our own egos, but we innately know our predetermined path, by virtue of who we are, however that path will only lead the way when we choose to follow & exercise free will.
Predestination & Free Will are not separate from us they are us; we bring them to life…
Predestination & free will are like aging, with it, come wrinkles, a predestined occurrence, however some, thru free will, choose to erase those wrinkles, but in the end it doesn’t change their age or any real truth about them.
I agree that both are true. To have free will that will must come from somewhere, from some inner nature of yours, in which case what you will is predetermined by your inner nature. For it not to be predetermined by your nature it would have to be dependent on random events and environment and so on. In either case in an absolute sense it is predetermined, but that doesn't stop it from being free. You are constrained by predestination only to the extend that you cannot be anything other than yourself, and cannot will anything other than what it is in your nature to will - but why would you want to want something you don't want?
What reason is there for the human mind to exist if not for free will? Would not a species without free will more resemble an ant colony or bee hive? For what good would be dreams and desires if all life is predetermined. Considering how much time humans spend planning their lives, What a cruel hoax a predetermined existence would be!



















t.keeley says:
14 months ago
The common error in this argument is to say that Calvinists believe you have no will. Your will is only as free as the soul by which your bound. That sounds humanistic, perhaps it is, but understand that the Bible mentions "dead to sins." I have yet to see someone raise themselves from a dead state. Couple that with Christ Himself advocating a predestinarian stance and we are up against a wall of logic and faith intwined in one. In the sense you're speaking, they both exist. The only thing Calvinists say you cannot choose is Christ. The whole "no one comes to the father but through me." Another paraphrase runs similar to "no one comes to me unless the Father wills it."
More verses in the Bible for predestination, combined with the historical view of the church dating back before even St. Augustine also back this stance up. If you are advocating Free Will, you're not necessarily heretical, but the battle isn't even with the facts as much as it is with the individual. I believe majority if not all men who become Christians begin as Free Will Christians. It defies your pride to begin otherwise. We all want aprt in our fate, it hurts us to find out we didn't choose our salvation but that it was sovereignly provided to us.
No matter what I say, I guarantee I offended people with this somewhat mundane comment.