REFUTE of SALVATION for ALL Doctrine
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CRITICAL ERR OF SALVATION FOR ALL
I have become aware of an entire group that is against the biblical "Christian" teaching that only those IN CHRIST JESUS will be saved. This doctrine teaches that ALL will be saved, even to the point that Satan himself and his fallen angels, and everyone who rebels against God will simply be purified by God's all consuming, spiritual fire (there is no HELL) and will indeed be SAVED by that fire (on earth and in the after-life) and we all live happily ever after. They also believe man has no choice to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, but that God makes that choice for them. Otherwise, they claim that Christians are saying God is weak.
The interesting thing about this group is that they don't claim any particular church root or doctrine (other than bibletruths.com, created by L. Ray Smith). Many, if not most of the people following Ray's teachings do not claim to be saved (yet) and thus, I am questioning whether Ray claims to be saved either! Indeed, no one can understand the truth of the Word without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, nor can they have this guidance until they receive the Holy Spirit through salvation!
I am burdened for all those who are following this false teaching! Rather than go into ALL the scripture references they've publicized and their interpretation, I will rather get to the point or the bottom line. If there are those of you that really are searching and wish to be open to the truth, though it's much nicer to believe we're entitled to salvation no matter what, please feel free to send me an email, and I will do my best to research and share the "rest of the story" (explained below):
The ROOT: Misinterpretation of SCRIPTURE
The Bible warns us of such things to come: 2 Peter 2:16-17 in regard to all the letters written by the Apostle Paul, "in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."
One of these ALL ARE SAVED/NO HELL/MAN HAS NO CHOICE followers sent me the following statement:
"You need to start believing these verses of Scripture and not what you THINK it's suppose to mean! It says the inhabitants of the WORLD. When? When Thy judgments are in the earth. Now who does that include? The whole earth, all the inhabitants of the whole world, to me that is everybody. You say, ‘no it’s not.’ Well to me it is, I’m sorry you are going to have to show me a verse that says, when His judgments are in the earth, NOT all the inhabitants of the whole world will learn righteousness. Do you have a Scripture that says that? ‘No.’
Here is my response: You are quoting Isaiah 26:9 and you asked me to show you a verse that says, when His judgments are in the earth, NOT all the inhabitants of the whole world will learn righteousness. I do have that verse! Read the VERY NEXT VERSE, verse 10, and I quote the Word, "Though the wicked is shown favor (the Jews are God's preferred), He does NOT learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD."
In doing hours and hours of study to answer every verse quoted to me by one of these members, I noticed this to be the case many times. One verse without reading the very next one, which then denies, or limits the whole context of "the rest of the story". We can see how Satan himself uses this practice when he tempts Jesus Christ in the desert.
In Luke 4:9-11, verse 10 quotes Satan as saying, “for it is written, ‘HE WILL GIVE HIS ANGELS CHARGE CONCERNING YOU TO GUARD YOU, and ‘ON THEIR HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, LEST YOU STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’” Indeed, Satan was quoting the prophesy written in the Old Testament in Psalm 91:11 accurately! His motive, though, was to tempt Jesus to throw himself down off the top of the pinnacle of the temple on which he stood! Jesus answered him in verse 12 with scripture: “It is said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST’”. Hmmm. Did Jesus just say he was “THE LORD, YOUR GOD?" (Satan’s GOD?). YES. We see this answer in Psalm 91:12. Did you notice that Satan only quoted ONE VERSE in Psalms and neglected the VERY NEXT VERSE in Psalms?
Here are some more scriptures in which this group practices the same thing:
- Isaiah 42:16 (they neglect verse 17)
- Isaiah 45:22-23 (they neglect verses 24 and 25)
- Philippians 2:10-11 (they neglect verse 12)
- 1 John 2:2 (they neglect verse 3)
- 1 John 4:14 (they neglect verse 15)
Refute of ALL will be SAVED
Luke 13:23-28 “And someone said to Him, ‘Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?’ And He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But He will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' But He will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from Me, all you evildoers!' There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.”
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."
A couple of the passages used by this group to "prove" that people will be saved through spiritual "fire" is 1 Peter 1:7 and 1 Cor 3:13-15. Let me show here how it's written in the NAS version of the Bible:
1 Peter 1:7 "that is the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
Translated correctly, this is better understood by the proper typing of the words and punctuation:
"That the trial of your faith (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ." (DRB)
1 Cor 3:13-15 "each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains; he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."
The following scriptures help clarify its meaning: Zechariah 3:2; Amos 4:11; and Jude 23.
The interpretation is as follows: A builder whose building (works), not the foundation (his salvation), is consumed by fire, escapes (is snatched out), and thus he suffers the loss of his work (therefore, the loss of his reward-prize). The word it above is the foundation of Jesus Christ upon which he built his works. He does not lose his salvation, nor does he obtain it by these works.
Refute that there IS NO HELL
Regarding the Lake of Fire: This group believes God would never be so cruel as to cast or throw anyone into a literal hell of fire. This is rooted in the fact they can't understand how we could possily not grieve the fact that any of our loved ones would be sent to such a place, while in heaven for all eternity! When we look at the rich man in the parable of Hades (Luke 16:19-31), indeed the rich man pleaded that someone be sent to his family members to share the plan of salvation with them before it was too late! This was a portion of his torment! The Word says to these people who have chosen NOT to believe in Hell for this purpose, as follows:
In Matthew 10:37, Jesus said, “He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me."
Luke 9:59-62 states, "And Jesus said to another, 'Follow Me'." But the man said, "Permit me first to go and bury my father." But Jesus said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."
And another also said, "I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home." But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."
The Lord responds to those who think that His judgment for the wicked is "not right" in Ezekiel 18:23-32. He states the same thing in verses 25 and 29 as follows: "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel (the chosen)! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?" He also states the same thing in verses 23 adn 32 as follows: "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,' declares the Lord GOD. 'Therefore, repent and live."
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 “For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-- for our testimony to you was believed.”
This group believes the Lake of Fire is a purification fire for the unsaved that will bring them to salvation in their immortal life (after they die). In regard to this fire saving people, we've addressed that in the section above. To claim that man is saved through judgment, rather than the sacrifice Jesus already made for us on the cross to continually forgive us of our sin, is negating the purpose of the cross!
There is a Lake of Fire, whether they believe it's an actual place or the spiritual "fire" of God upon the unsaved (it is both). Nowhere in the Bible does it state that there will be another chance for salvation into the Kingdom of God once put there. It is final. We had our choice for salvation while alive. If you don't obtain salvation through Jesus Christ BEFORE YOU DIE, your name will not be found in the Lamb's Book of Life and you WILL be cast into that Lake of Fire where Satan, the fallen angels, the Antichrist and the False Prophet are also, as immortal, never to die again.
Mark 9:49 describes the Lake of Fire based on Isaiah 66:24, “where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.” The Word also says of the Lake of Fire (geenna) in Revelation 14:10-11, "...he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Refute that Man has NO CHOICE
This group uses the following scripture as one to prove that we didn't choose God, but He chose us.
John 15:16 John is quoting Jesus saying, "Ye have NOT CHOSEN me, but I have CHOSEN you, and ORDAINED you" IN CONTEXT, they MUST read the exact quote of Jesus in John 6:70 (which is before John 15) and I quote, "Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him." Having twelve apostles was a must, so Judas was replaced by Matthius in Acts 1:12-26.
Please know that the CHOSEN of God are of the twelve TRIBES of Israel shown in Revelation 7:5-8 as follows: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin. Anyone who is saved outside the Jewish faith is of the tribe of Judah and is grafted in to the elect of God! I would recommend reading my hub, "The Elect of God": http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Elect-of-God
God blinds, yes. God hardens hearts (as with Pharoh), yes. But even as the blind man was blind to the glory of God (so that he could see and give glory to God) [John 9:1-3], God does not prevent people from their very SALVATION. He accomplishes His will, whatever it takes, but does NOT prevent someone from making the choice in receiving His salvation.
2 Corinthians 4:4 is written as follows: "In whom, the god of this age, hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, to the end they may not discern the radiance of the glad-message of the glory of the Christ—who is the image of God."
Those who are spiritually blind are blind by their own merit, as described in the following confirming verses:
Acts 17:30-31 “"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man [Jesus] whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Acts 18:6 “But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."
God's Word says to "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE; AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD." (Joshua 24:15) Jesus told Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews in regard to salvation, "You MUST be BORN AGAIN." (John 3:1-7), and read this: "[The jailer] "brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31). To know about the plan of salvation, please read my hub: "Come to Jesus: SALVATION": http://hubpages.com/hub/Come-to-JESUS-Salvation
This group uses the scripture . "NO MAN CAN come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44)” as grounds for God being the One to choose who gets saved, when and how. The translation of the word DRAW actually means to DRAG. That's true. I've written a separate hub called "SALVATION: Unless God DRAG Us?": http://hubpages.com/hub/SALVATION-Unless-God-DRAG-Us. This will answer what this scripture really means.
As far as God creating evil and thus being the One who makes us sinful, I have written yet another hub called "The Battle for Your SOUL": http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Battle-for-your-SOUL to answer this, and invite you to read.
So, let's look at their doctrine of man having no choice, and thus God also will purify man, Satan and his angels with fire. Are they implying that throughout the firey trials, man will be able to make a choice? If not, why wouldn't God save them without puting them through fire? What difference does it make? AMEN.
A Matter of LIFE and DEATH!
The Word says, "My people are DESTROYED for lack of knowledge." So many sheep (yes people) have gone astray; each man turns to his own way, the Bible says. If we don't learn to study the whole Bible and prove the Bible with the Bible for ouselves, we are vulnurable to follow the teachings of any man that seems to have what they claim is "understanding", following "every wind of doctrine". Even I only teach with the Bible and prove it with the Bible. I don't give you my own translation; I will be held accountable (James 3:1) and SO WILL THEY!
"LET NOT MANY OF YOU BECOME TEACHERS, MY BRETHREN, KNOWING THAT AS SUCH WE SHALL INCUR A STRICTER JUDGMENT"
Know this: the Devil can't prey on sheep that KNOW their God! Yes, he will persecute us, but that's all he can do. He only goes after the ignorant (innocent). Don't be destroyed by Satan. It's easier to believe this false doctrine than it is the truth. That should tell you everything. Had there not been such err in this massive doctrine based on ALL by this group, I would have not developed such a burden for them in writing this hub, but this is a matter of spiritual life or death to ALL , (comma)...those who follow their teachings! Bottom Line.
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Bless you,Wehzo. Speaking of an army of one ~ WE are an ARMY of ONE (OUR GOD). A burden for others is a calling to pray for them and work diligently to serve and protect them. God is more concerned with, and all of heaven rejoices when ONE lost sheep is FOUND. We know our salvation in Jesus Christ, and until He comes again, until the Day of the Lord, we do His will, which is to reconcile man to God, to fight the good fight. You are one of the warriors, a shepherd of the flock and I am blessed to be blessed by you, Wehzo. AMEN.
You offered and God will lead some to you for truth. I commented on their hub that we as Christians will continue to love and pray for them. The truth is that men sometimes love darkness rather than light and some will not want to know the light. As long as God gives them to live I will pray for them. But the clock is ticking away and none of us is getting any younger. Hey, if I could get saved out of the Jehovah's Witnesses anybody can. As always, luvya!
HALLELUJAH! PRAISE THE LORD! That IS the WITNESS of JESUS CHRIST! You have no idea how powerful a witness you are! I am so blessed! If you only knew the burden I carry for them as well. JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. AMEN.
Outstanding Hub. You had to take a stand for the Truth. I also am grateful for Wehzo's encouragement of you above. While I certainly won't be doing the judging, I do know that Jesus said there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." And we all know there will be none of that in Heaven.
The TRUTH spoken AGAIN! It's REALLY so SIMPLE when we have the eyes and ears to hear what the Spirit says! AMEN!
Go for it Carrie.
It does not matter in Gods eyes what your sin is, as long as you are in Christ, and covered by his blood.
God promises.
Psalms:103:12: As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
1Jo:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
John 17:2-26
"... That He should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him ... They (born-again)might know Thee (Father) the only true God and Jesus Christ ... and they have kept thy words ... I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me for they are thine ... all mine are thine ... and thine are mine ... that they may be one as we are ... that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves ... I have given them thy word ... they are not of the world ... sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth ... for their sakes I sanctify myself ... that they also might be sanctified through the truth ... they all may be one ... be one in us ... unto them thy name ... wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them"
Concerning L RAY SMITH FOLLOWERS......God already judges them.
Ga:1:6: I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Ga:1:7: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Stick the man on the cross, and dont be moved, there is no confidence anywhere else
GB
I praise God for my BROTHER in you HOO! His Spirit is ALMIGHTY!
Ok Carrie..I read it. Nothing in it that I haven't gone over. Take care.
ZJWM2009, only the Words of the Lord will stay with you and He will bring them to your remembrance as He wills. He says His word never returns to Him void and our labor is not in vain when done unto the salvation in Christ Jesus. I am thankful you are reading and I pray you are blessed. He is faithful to those who seek Him. amen.
Carrie, are you still trying to refute God's truths? It's funny how you make false statements still and don't allow anyone to post the truths. Satan does the same thing when he appears like an angel of light. Very similar to the way your making the false claims above appear.
Thankfully, as I have stated countless times, all is in God's control. Lie as much as you want. god watches and see's all. You may appear to be a good christian on these hubs but when your home alone crying and begging for God to forgive you for the lies your posting and the hateful messages you send people, I for one forgive you Carrie.
I know your only human and your susceptible to satan's musings. Claiming Ray is a cult and posting complete fabrications (interesting you didn't post ANY of the truths I have presented you) shows how deep in the grip of false doctrines you have delved.
Having others of like mind praise you and urge you on doesn't mean anything except I know it stokes your ego.
As I've always said Carrie, I will continue to pray that God opens your eyes and ears to His truths and leads you away from these false doctrines and lies that you think your called to post.
God is GREAT Carrie, unfortunately, you not so much when you post these lies to make you appear more godly.
-Jacob
JL ~ is it not true you believe ALL will be saved, that there is no HELL, and that man has no FREE WILL? I have not posted lies about what you believe. In fact, I have quoted your very words in this hub above. I boldly say, you are DECEIVED. If I cry at night, it's for your salvation; that you be delivered from the snares and lies of the Adversary that is blinding you to the glory of the Lord's Light and Truth.
You said, "As I've always said Carrie, I will continue to pray that God opens your eyes and ears to His truths and leads you away from these false doctrines and lies." He is keeping me away from your false doctrines and lies, JL.
Guess what? Did you know that God doesn't hear sinners? (John 9:31) If you don't have the real Jesus, your "prayers" are not heard. Turn to the real Jesus, JL. He is the only One who can open your spiritual eyes.
Amen.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to WILL and to do of his good pleasure.
Well, there went free will right out the window. lol
I know you won't approve the comment, just like you always do
Come one, come all ~~ Phillip, this passage is speaking to Spirit-filled believers. We cannot receive the Holy Spirit of God, nor accomplish His will in us if we do not first receive Him by repenting and asking Him to be the Lord of our lives. I would assume you know this?
Philip, Not ALL will be saved. We do agree that Jesus said "These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me." So even though they were told they were of their "father, the Adversary", you still think ALL will be saved. I invite you to read my hub called "Will He Know You?" http://hubpages.com/hub/Will-He-Know-You. The saved will be known by Him; the unsaved will not. Keep reading the Bible and I pray He keep on growing all of us closer to Him in His knowledge of the truth.
Romans 9:16 So then it is NOT of him [man] that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of [GOD] that sheweth mercy.[Another classic example of disproving free will]
It's speaks to Jews, AND Gentiles.
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [Man accepts Christ???? Here it says Christ accepts man] Direct contradiction!
Philip, I'm not going to DISPUTE with you, as this hub addresses free will. Jesus made salvation available to the entire world, but just like with Adam and Eve, we are given the Word of God that tells us we must be born again, for if we don't we will be condemned. Adam and Eve made a choice, and so we also have a choice. Obviously, the Word speaks of those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life and what is to be their fate. If you don't believe it, that's puts YOU on God's throne? I don't think so...
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (geenna - Lake of Fire)."
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.'" (again, the Lake of Fire)
Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Luke 13:23-28 “And someone said to Him, ‘Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?’ And He said to them, 'Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.'" (they won't be able to!)
Don't comfortably sit and think that because Jesus made the Way for all to be saved that ALL will be saved. The Word is CLEAR on this. Read these passages, which are only a few of many and know that the Word is truth.
Carrie, my intent is NOT to argue with you as we have done this in past hubs and it accomplishes nothing. You and I both know this to be true. I do appreciate you allowing my comment to be posted.
Carrie, you state that mankind does not have free will. Do you understand what it is that you claim? Do you understand what exactly "free will" is?
You claim Adam and Eve were created perfect yet they sinned because Adam and Eve had free will to thwart God's perfect plan and bring about the current world we live in. Where does the scriptures state such nonsense? You incorrectly assume that Adam and Eve were created perfect because they were created in the image of God. You & many other Christians incorrectly attribute Scriptures referring to the King of Babylon to Satan the devil as being cast down from heaven.
The reason why I beleive that Jesus is the Savior of ALL mankind is because the Scriptures state it clear and plainly. You believe that Jesus only saves those who accept Him and are born again. Those that accept Jesus are His Elect! However NO ONE is born again and no one is SAVED in this lifetime. Saving is a process. If anyone who repented and accepted Christ were saved, then they would no longer sin. The wages of Sin are DEATH and death only. Not suffering eternally in Hell. If that were the case then Death and Hell would not also be thrown into the Lake of fire and destroyed.
The reason why there are so many religions claiming to have the truth when they clearly dont is because that is the way that God wants it. You assume that somehow Satan but a wrench in God's plans and screwed everything up. That is not the case. God says that Satan was created as the crooked serpent from the beginning. Jesus says you are of your father, the devil who sinned from the beginning. Not he sinned once he fell from grace and followed his own free will. God says that HE and only HE directs mans steps. So how can you say the Scriptures say you can direct your own steps via free will? Man can make choices! Those choices are not free from outside influences which God is in control of at ALL times. Therefore, your choices are NOT FREE from God's control. Man has a will definitely but it's not free to act upon itself without God's control. You refute this when it's a common theme through-out the entire Scriptures.
ALL religion refutes this truth because mankind believes they are in control of their own destinies and not answerable to God. This is also addressed in Scripture where the Beast attempts to sit in God's throne and call himself God. This is speaking of the carnal mind within each of us. Revelations is symbolic ONLY. It is not literal. It was signified which means to make known by signs and symbols. It's a Revelation of Jesus Christ, not John. EVERYTHING Jesus spoke, He spoke of in parables which are spiritual teachings. Therefore ANYTHING Jesus speaks about is in regards to spiritual things. spiritual things cannot also be physical things.
I realize that these truths are foreign to you and it's much easier to claim I am misleading people or I am of the devil but I don't speak of my own, I speak from the Scriptures and it is very easy to see. Jesus spoke of those who speak from their own mind vs speaking from the Scriptures and these would be known and easily seen as being of God or being false prophets.
Why would you think God would create people only to torture anyone for all eternity. Does that sound like a loving Creator? You misinterpret a great many Scriptures when you compare God to the mindset of human man. God isn't a man and He is not prone to our fleshly desires and does not love war, death and suffering and His will is clearly stated as NOT wanting to see any perish. God's will is ALWAYS done. It does not return to Him unfinished. It accomplishes ALL that He desires and He says He desires for ALL to be saved. WHY do you insist on stating that God's will can't be done?
JL, where have I said man does NOT have free will? Or was this a type-o? Man DOES have FREE WILL. Our will is transformed to His will when we give our will over to Him. Even when we are saved, the "law in our members" (our hearts) battle against the "law in the Spirit" (God's heart within us). The changing of our hearts is an ongoing process and He is faithful to complete this work in us, once we yeild our will to His (being born again).
You said, "ALL religion refutes this truth because mankind believes they are in control of their own destinies and not answerable to God." We all must answer to God. I don't know who told you this? God controls our destinies of which we CHOOSE. Choose life, or choose death. There are many passages on this in the Word, but read Deut 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"
John 5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." This is not about "deeds of the flesh", but rather the change of heart from evil to good that the Holy Spirit works in us, which is our true salvation.
Satan quotes the Word of God and yet twists it or merely leaves out scriptures that would refute the truth. Check out this hub you may or may not have read above, regarding the temptation of Christ in the desert.
You said yourself, "His will is clearly stated as NOT wanting to see any perish". If no one will perish, He should have returned by now, if ALL will be saved and ALL are saved. 2 Pet 3:9 states that our Lord is not slow concerning His promised return, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish....but that all should come to REPENTANCE." Repentance is a change of heart, yeilding our will to His.
Read the passages above in my comment above your last one. He will separate the tares from the wheat (Mat 13:30). There will be souls that go to the Lake of Fire reserved for the devil and his angels (not for salvation, but for destruction)-Mat 25:41. If you wish to deny the passages that are clearly stated above, you are spiritually blinded, for which I am grieved. For you to teach men, God's creation, that they all will be saved and we simply have no need to preach the gospel, is dangerous!
Again, I quote Luke 13:23-28 “And someone said to Him, ‘Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?’ And He said to them, 'Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, many will try to enter and will not be able to.'" (they won't be able to!)
I continue to pray for you, JL and Phillip. I also pray for Hell-No, too.
Sorry that must have been a typo. I meant the Scriptures state Mankind does not Have Free will... obviously.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
I posted these same two verse of scripture on another hub. I added nothing else to my comment but left it with only those verses. Funny thing happened. The response was so long from the writer that it took two comment boxes to post the reply. All of that from only two verses of scripture.
What happened next was that I spoke again and wrote a short reply. Now both of my comments are gone, deleted and floating around in Hubpages cyberspace somewhere. The sad thing is, I can understand the second one being denied. After all I did write something other than just scripture. I will never understand why the first one was deleted.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Let every man be a liar, but God be truth.
I would like to reply to Philip if it is OK. When a person submits their body and soul to God, then God will work His will through them. Until that time comes, they are under the influence of Satan and are bent to do his will. They are bound by whatever they believe or do not believe.
God has given everyone a choice to make. Reemeber legion? Even woith all those devils inside that man, they could not stop him from worshiping Jesus. Though he was bound, he still made the choice to bow before God.
SirDent, amen. Those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is Geenna. This false prophet teaches this is merely a fire of purification and once purified, man (and the devil and his angels) will be saved out of it.
Mark 9:49 describes the Lake of Fire based on Isaiah 66:24, “where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.” The Word also says of the Lake of Fire (Geenna) in Revelation 14:10-11, "...he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Forever and ever means just that...no deliverance!
Isaiah 47:14-15 "Behold, they have become like stubble, Fire burns them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame; each has wandered in his own way. There is none to save you."
Many times I see these followers quote scripture about how God directs our steps, but again, this is for those that are His. Like you said, we can only have our will changed by God when we choose to submit our will TO God. Amen!
Unlike the LDS hub, those who follow this false prophet leave book-long comments, some of which I denied. They try so hard to get people to run to darkness, but it is fruitless; futile for those who walk in the light. Lord, have mercy on your people ~ amen!
It appears your doctrines are based upon unscriptural words. This means words like "eternity" and "forever and ever". honest study will prove that the correct word is Aion, for the ages, etc. NOWHERE in the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures are the words "forever and ever or eternity" used anywhere in the Scriptures. Using them would lead on to have a false understanding of the Scriptures.
Honestly, I would think if your going to back a doctrine, these simple truths wouldn't have to be explained.
Oh dear God, give me strength. Carrie you think that God can only control or direct our steps if we choice to follow Him?
"Many times I see these followers quote scripture about how God directs our steps, but again, this is for those that are His. Like you said, we can only have our will changed by God when we choose to submit our will TO God. Amen!"
You think that God can or will only direct our steps when we accept Christ as our Savior? So let me get this straight. God according to you, is limited in His power. God can't control the steps of anyone except those who choose to follow Him. Are you insane?!
You deny "book long comments" because they contain truths that you can't refute. I have nothing against you Carrie but you simply promote a false doctrine, plain and simple. None of what you state is Scriptural.
SirDent - I will continue to delete your posts because what you attempt to post on my Hubs are unscriptural trash.
Unlike Carrie, I don't deny anyone posting on my hubs only when they post unscriptural doctrines.
Carrie, I honestly wish you the best. I hope one day that God opens your eyes. but a word to the wise. If you continue to call that which is of God of the devil, your tears won't mean anything on judgment day.
Praying for people to get cancer because you can't understand truthful study of the scriptures is not only blasphemous but truly the devil has your tongue. Its that which comes out of our mouths that defile us. your comments defile you and you know it.
Praise God!
JL, I did not pray for your L. Ray Smith to get cancer. Your people told me this. I do believe that God removes false prophets for the sake of His precious children who are being led astray from the truth. You said you only post comments that are true and not the false ones. Well, we are obviously on different sides of the "truth", and I also do not purposefully allow your comments that are full of the twisting of the truth, but merely to show the reading audience how very different your doctrine is, which is a "different gospel"...Paul says in Gal 1:8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!"
When was L. Ray Smith and bibletruths.com founded? When did this "new gospel" enter the world? Do you know its roots?
Carrie Carrie Carrie, you have stated in hubs that are still up for others to see that God possibly has given Ray cancer as punishment. Now you claim you never said it?
Remember the ALL Liar's part of the Lake of Fire Carrie? God see's all Carrie. Do you think you can make such statements and not be held accountable while you claim to follow God and be born again?
Carrie, the reason why you only pick and choose what you will allow to post of mine is because you only allow what you think you can refute. You don't like being bogged down with honest scripture because you don't have to put much thought into it. You don't feel the need to study careful. It's much easier for you to only try and argue what you think you know. As long as others cheer you on, you think your on a righteous path.
I think I'll follow Christ. You seem to be following the path of the wide whereas I'm following the path of the narrow. That's why you have millions of Christians agreeing with your doctrines. It's not the many that are chosen but the FEW.
I guess I'll see you on judgment day. I promise I won't rub your nose in it when your called out but I will certainly remember how you called me and others of the devil. I still forgive you regardless. God see's everything and I'm content with that knowledge.
One day I do hope He opens your eyes and you finally understand His truths that He is in control of all things and you don't have "free will" to go against God's will.
That will be a wonderful day.
I have spoken my thoughts regarding L. Ray Smith and his cancer in my comment above and do not need to restate my wonderings about this.
Regarding "eternal" and "everlasting", you state it is the word "aion"? Well, let's look at what the Greek dictionary says about "eternal" and "everlasting" in the following two passages:
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.'"
Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
eternal and everlasting are the same Greek word aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os); perpetuual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):-eternal, for ever, everlasting.
The word aion is similar, but the incorrect word when it comes to eternal life or eternal judgement. You've asked me to study, and I have done so.
We are to "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth." (2 Tim 2:15) In His grace and patience ~
JL, It doesn't matter whether tou allow my cooments or not because I will not comment on your hubs again. I recall recently many that agree with you and possibly you also who cried and whined over comments beeing deleted. All I have to say is keep crying.
If you lead anyone falsely, their blood is on your hands.
I believe we need to beware of those who claim to know God’s Spiritual Truths, but know preciously little about God’s Word, the Scriptures. God’s Spirit never contradicts His Word, but the Church’s and many others "teaching" contradicts God’s Word in hundreds of places.
Many spiritually blind believers think that they truly are disciples of Christ, but they go out telling the world that Jesus Christ will not take away the sin (singular ‘SIN’ - ALL SIN) of the world, as John the Baptist plainly said under inspiration of God, that He would (John 1:29). And many spiritually blind believers think and go out telling the world that Jesus Christ is NOT the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD, even though His Father plainly said that He is (I John 4:14). And they also falsely claim that God will not have all mankind to be saved, though God inspired Paul to say that He WILL save all mankind (I Tim. 2:4, & 4:10). Are such deceivers worthy to be called disciples and apostles of our Lord?
I think the answer is fairly obvious. I know many times the truth hurts and this is just such a case where people don't want to accept God's truth. They want to continue to follow and promote false doctrines.
I Cor. 2:10
"But God has revealed them unto us BY HIS SPIRIT: for the Spirit searches ALL things, yea, the DEEP things of God"
Proverbs 25:2
"It is the glory of God to CONCEAL a thing: but the honor of kings is to SEARCH OUT a matter."
These evil and unscriptural doctrines are idols in the hearts of millions! And until they repent and get rid of these "idols of the heart" (Ezek. 14:4), they cannot be Christ’s disciples or apostles. They may say that they are "apostles," but they are not. The very church of God where Jesus Christ "walks" in their midst and "holds the seven angels of the seven churches in His hand," nonetheless, has in its midst, "…them which say they are apostles, and ARE NOT … but LIARS." They say that they are circumcised in heart Jews, but they are NOT.
Listen to Jesus (with your SPIRIT):
"WHY do ye [all of mankind] NOT UNDERSTAND MY SPEECH? EVEN BECAUSE YE CANNOT HEAR MY WORD. Ye are of your father THE DEVIL … He that is of God HEARS God’s words [words of SPIRIT, WITH HIS SPIRIT]: ye therefore hear them not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD" (John 8:43-44 & 47).
"But the natural [soulish] man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned" (I Cor. 2:14).
I don't believe you have a problem with what I teach, I beleive you have a problem with what the Scriptures state must be. God's word PLAINLY states the truths as I have presented them to you but you don't accept them because you don't like them. You would much rather think of God as imperfect, unable to do anything right and therefore will destroy the majority of mankind except for those who you think are good christians. Such teachings are unscriptural and blasphemous.
I don't think anyone here is a bad person even though SirDent insists on making snide remarks and acting superior to others. I understand it's his carnal mind rebelling against God's truths and it makes him feel good and godlike to attempt to make others look like fools. But fortunately, God hasn't allowed that to happen, much to SirDent's chagrin.
It's tremendously sad to see so many people who claim to serve God but in the same breath blaspheme Him as well.
As a side note Carrie, I really appreciated your email response. I must admit, it was a side of you I had not seen before and I appreciated it tremendously. Your tone through-out the email was extremely kind and sincere & forthright. Likewise, I appreciate you allowing this discussion to continue on your hub by allowing at least some of my comments to be posted.
-JL
JL, I did some more research on your "belief" system, and it is of the root of Universalism that's been around almost as long as Christianity itself. Therefore, it's of no threat to those who are Christians (not merely "mouth-Christians"). Your doctrine and the doctrine of Christianity are out there for people to CHOOSE (yes, choose).
God created man in His image and God gave man the authority over all the earth. Man gave that authority over his life to Satan in the garden. When Jesus paid the price for our sin (yes, God knew they would sin and predestined His death on the cross for him), Man then must give the authority over his life back to God, which reconciles him to God (which is JUST). You believe God simply saved everyone and there is no repentance necessary, as man is incapable of change or willing to believe ~ unless God drags him to it. If that were the case, God would not have had to die. He is God, and because He's JUST, He has to follow the very Law of which He IS "I AM that I AM".
I have a hub on Salvation by DRAGGING (forcing), and have stated that God doesn't force His way, though He wills, He doesn't force, for again, He would not have had to die. When I read the following passages you quoted, it still confirms to me that there is a separation of good and evil, and if good and evil could not exist in the heavens in the beginning when the Dragon was cast out with his angels, it cannot simply be made pure by fire, but by the blood of God alone, and man's reconciliation through the same authority God gave him in the garden ~ by CHOICE.
You said, "Listen to Jesus (with your SPIRIT):
"WHY do ye [all of mankind] NOT UNDERSTAND MY SPEECH? EVEN BECAUSE YE CANNOT HEAR MY WORD. Ye are of your father THE DEVIL … He that is of God HEARS God’s words [words of SPIRIT, WITH HIS SPIRIT]: ye therefore hear them not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD" (John 8:43-44 & 47).
"But the natural [soulish] man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned" (I Cor. 2:14).
His Word is truth and confirms that only those who reconcile themselves by choice to God, by accepting the gift of salvation through His blood, will be "of God" and not cast out away from Him. If He can say to those on His left "Depart from Me; I NEVER KNEW YOU", He will not know them. They will not inherit salvation based on anything outside of the Way, the Truth and the Life, by CHOICE.
Amen.
JL, I had posted the comment above prior to your latest comment and I appreciate also that we can have a manner worthy of our Lord whom we claim to love in loving mankind in that way. I understand your heart is passionate about God as I share in that passion ~ it's unfortunate we are on two different sides of the coin, but ultimately, God knows the motives within our hearts and He is faithful to those who truly seek Him and continue in the Word by faith in Him. If we didn't care, we wouldn't be here, right? Amen.
LOL JL, here's a snide remark for you.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Universalism is a false belief. Those who embrace it do so because they have departed from the faith and the truth. Just as Eve was deceived in the Garden of Eden, so are they likewise deceived.
God will take care of all who sin against Him. Those whose names were not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Why does God need a book if all people will be saved? If you being evil know how to give good things to your children how much more will God give His children who love Him?
Eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man the things that God has in store "FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." But it is revealed to "US" by His Spirit.
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Why would some be called Bastards? Can they be sons or daughters of God if they are bastards?
G3541
??????
nothos
Thayer Definition:
1) illegitimate, bastard
2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity
Enough said?
Thanks Carrie, I do very much enjoy our conversations this time around. We both agree that neither of us can claim Christ is Lord without the Holy Spirit and I think for now that's good enough.
SirDent, for some reason you think that universal salvation negates Christ's sacrifice when the opposite is true. Christ was made our sacrifice BEFORE the world was even created. Christ didn't die just to negate sin but to save us from DEATH. The fact that there are Holy Scriptures doesn't negate anything. I'm not exactly sure what your attempting to state.
Being a bastard does not mean that you can't become a son. Do you not know the parable about the wayward son who was a bastard but was welcome back by his Father? This is how God welcomes back ALL His bastard children when they repent and accept Him. Those that don't repent, like a loving father will are chastised and made to repent because the Father loves them.
If you feel making negative comments at my expense is Godly behavior... you need to go back and re-read the Scriptures.
Nuff said? Not quite but for now, I'm content.
Carrie,
I'd like us to understand each other, so this is why I am trying to address the differences in understanding Scripture. You stated in your previous post that I don't believe that repentance is necessary. For those that God has called to repent, yes I believe they will. I think the confusion regarding repent or not to repent is that in the last days when God brings His judgment, anyone who has NOT repented at that time WILL repent then.
This is in reference to the Elect:
Rev. 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
This is in reference to the devil:
Rev. 14:10, "...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire..." (Rev. 20:10).
As this is Satan, he is a spirit, and therefore CANNOT be tortured with REAL FIRE. Real, physical fire has NO effect on SPIRIT! Since God "makes His angels SPIRITS; His ministers a FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4), it isn’t likely that the Head of the "sinning angels" would be the least bit hurt by literal fire!
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:12 & 15).
We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). However, that does not purge us from all our filthy thoughts and deeds. No, there is more. There is also a consuming FIRE that God uses on us:
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)
"He shall judge the world with RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Psalm 96:13)
"Because He [God] hath appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Acts 17:31)
Make no mistake, God will judge the wicked with great severity. However, ALWAYS FOR A BENEVOLENT PURPOSE:
"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when Thy judgments are in the earth, THE INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 26:9)
There will come a time when those who only knew how to blaspheme the name of God, will come to LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. They will not just "hear" of righteousness, no, they will actually "LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS"!
The whole book of Isaiah speaks of judgments on Israel and on the nations. But the end of all these judgments is SALVATION TO ALL. Notice Isa. 45:22-23,
"Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness [as in, ‘For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth,’ I Tim. 2:3-4] , and shall not return, That unto me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR" (See also: Phil. 2: 9-11 & I Cor. 12:3).
The Scriptures state that EVERY Knee will bend. Every tongue will swear Christ is Lord. This is the time when the remainder of mankind will learn righteousness & repent. After this is judgment. God's Elect have been called in every generation to be judged during their life on earth. Those Called and chosen are chastised and experience fiery trials while alive during their time no earth. This is how they are acceptable to Christ for the wedding feast and eventual marriage to Christ and then to reign as Kings and help judge the rest of the world. Because the Elect have been called to be judged in their lifetimes in every generation since Christ walked the earth. Those patriarchs of the Old Testament received a promise in faith but have not as yet been given that promise. The Elect are the only ones called to judge the very angels that God created.
In regards to God “dragging” people to Him. I think your focusing too much on the dragging portion. The definition of that particular word means to “drag”. Stating that God drags people to Him is an accurate explanation of the process.
I agree that mankind can make choices all day long and every day for their entire lives. I have never stated otherwise. These "choices" are NOT independent from what God has already stated/declared will happen. Once you make a choice, it's a fact and couldn't have ever happened any other way. This is a law of nature. There is no "what if" when God has declared the beginning from the end.
Therefore EVERY choice we make cannot be made outside of what God has already declared and therefore, it is NOT free from God's declaration or control.
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE ... I have spoken it, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT" (Isa. 46:10-11).
God allows us to make choices in our lives, but these choices are not free from outside CAUSES. You are hungry and decide to drive to McDonald's, while driving come to a crossroad, you choose to go left. God's plan for you was for you to go left when you came to that turn. You came to that turn because you were driving; you were driving because you were hungry and wanted to go to McDonald's. You were hungry because your body craved food; your body craved food because God created your body to need food to live. Therefore that choice to go left is not free from outside influence. Free will means you can choice to do something without outside influence. If your decision is influenced, it can’t be free. The problem comes from not understanding what exactly free will is because we have been conditioned to believe we have a free will. Doctrines are based upon this false understanding of the term. Free will doesn't exist because no choice is FREE from outside causes. We all have a will, no one has disputed that. What I have stated the Scriptures clearly explain is that mankind’s choices are not independent from what God has already determined/predestined.
I explained that Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God against his will. Moses did not want to fight Pharaoh but God caused Him to be able to do so. Saul killed Christians until Christ caused Saul to change his Heart against his will. To say that God doesn't force us to do His will is not true. God shows us over and over that God is ALWAYS in charge and controls our actions at ALL times.
Do you honestly think that God, who tells us to love our enemies will destroy our loved ones just because they don't serve Christ when alive? It goes against the entire theme of the Scriptures which is LOVE.
The reason why Christ had to die was to save us from DEATH. The wages of sin is DEATH. not the wages of sin is sin. If people were destined for Hell, then WHY/HOW are Hell and Death thrown into the LOF at the end and destroyed forever?
Christ was made the sacrificial lamb before the earth and Man was made subject to vanity but also given HOPE in the resurrection of Christ because God had determined that would be the way it was to be. Man was never made perfect. Being created in God's image is an ongoing process, not a singular event w/Adam and Eve. It is necessary for us to learn the difference between Good and Evil. God placed the tree in the garden
Carrie,
I'm not trying to argue, just trying to give you as better understanding of how I understand the Scriptures. I think if you are going to disagree, you should understand completely what it is you are disagreeing with.
I'm trying to keep my postings as simple as possible but there are so many scriptures in the Bible which I think are important to mention, so it makes it hard to keep it short.
Thanks
JL
Claiming my doctrine is universalism is incorrect. Just as all other christian religions and religions outside christianity promote unscriptural doctrines, there are a great many doctrines universalists promote that are equally unscriptural as well.
I belong to the Body of Christ and do not subscribe to any earthly body of religion.
It is suffice to say that Ray Smith does present a great many doctrines that I do agree with and understand but he too also does not claim any allegiance with any earthly organization of/or religion. however, I do not nor does anyone else I know, put Ray on a pedestal above God or even equal to God. All is of God and it is God whom I serve, no one else, man or myth. I just happen to understand and agree with a great many of the Scriptures that Ray understands, believes and promotes as truthful study.
Eating the apple was not the sin, it was the disobedience. Before she ate Eve committed the three sins listed in 1 John 2:16
(1Jo 2:16 KJVR)
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Christ counteracted these same three things when He was tempted in the Wilderness. His only weapon was the Word. "It is written" Though it happened in the physical this too was spiritual This was also a spiritual lesson on how we are to deal with these three deeds of the mind.
Christ is the First fruit and in.. Perfect Obedience... the Fruit.. was put back on ..the tree (the cross). The elect as His body are there too.
(Rom 8:1 KJVR)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:4 KJVR)
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
If Christ is our head and we do the Will of the Father then the first three commandments are automatic, since God loves and will save All of mankind, then we can finally love all our enemies as well as our friends. Now the remaining seven commandments no longer have any meaning to us.
The elect as the spiritual Body still has the physical flesh to contend with, they need to mortify and keep it under control. They have an advocate who will forgive their sins when they repent. Everything in the physical starts to become more and more meaningless. "The flesh profith nothing"
(Rom 8:5 KJVR)
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
(Rom 8:6 KJVR)
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
All of the sins in the Bible are like this, David and Bathsheba ( the adultery, lies, murder etc) Anaisis and his wife (attempting to hold something back from God). The list goes on.......
(Gal 5:16 KJVR)
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Carrie,
Feel free to check out the hubs I have posted. You can post comments on them. I will approve comments that are meant to be part of meaningful conversation, even if in disagreement. I don't allow comments that are threatening or an attempt to bully or be hateful. Again ,I appreciate you allowing a great many of my comments to be posted even if you disagree with me. I also agree that we both have passionate hearts about God as our Creator & Jesus Christ as our Savior.
Here is additional thoughtful study.
A great many of the worlds religions mankind believe, He loves the world so much. But the Concordance version has it right, John 3:16 “For thus God loves the world…”
Not how much He loved the world, although it was a lot, but that is not what the word said. It does not say, for God loved the world so much, no. It says this is how He loved the world, that’s what it means. He didn’t so love the world; He thus loved the world, in this way and this manner. Now in what manner did He agape the world, “He gave His only begotten Son,” ok. But if you say, God so loved the world, then you are insinuating He has phileo love for the world, right. That He has this affectionate, endearment of friendship with the world, because He so loved the world. NO.
This is the manner He loved them, He loved them with this agapao love, which has the benefit and future of humanity at heart. Nowhere does it say, God phileo loves the world, or any sinner in the world, mark that. This is too deep for the world, they can’t accept this, the same way they can’t except that God created evil and uses it often. But we have to deal with what scripture says or you might as well fall under the condemnation of the verses that says, “Because you despise this Word,” (Isa 30:12; Jere 23:17), if you won’t believe what it says.
Granted there is a couple of places that is not translated right, but not that many. That’s why I use the KJV. Even though it has eternal punishment, and there is no such thing as eternal punishment, there is eonian chastisement, two totally different things.
Eonian, age lasting chastisement or correction to make you better, is a whole lot different than torture the hell out of you, for all eternality, in fire. I mean these are not two same thoughts, they’re totally antithesis towards one another.
So this is the manner in which God loves the world, with agapao love. A love that is undeserved, they’re not reciprocating, ok. Let me give you another example of agapao love, not phileo love. Agapao love is when they crucified Christ, and He was dying, He prayed to His Father and said, “Father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34) Now that’s agape love.
Father these people are blind and deceived, oh their fools, and they’re hypocrites, blind fools as they called the Pharisees in Matt 23, none the less. Then as it was such a strong condemnation, on the one hand, on the other hand, He says Father forgive them. Is this a contradiction? No, it’s not. It’s the way God is and we need to be like God.
The only places you will see God phileo anyone, is His Son and us, the elect, no one else. Those who reciprocates, He loves us because He said (He is talking to His disciples now), My Father loves you and they didn’t know that before. But He said, I am telling you, My Father loves you, and the reason is, because you love Me. I’ve given them Your Word, I’ve been teaching you, it’s the same as the Father. The words that I speak, Christ said, they are the Father’s. The things that I do, the works that I do, it’s all the Father. And you excepted and reciprocated and love Me for it, and that is why My Father loves you. There it is.
So we need to have this agape love for our neighbors. Maybe we don’t like them, maybe they’re not even good people, for our enemies, surely aren’t good people, are there would not be a reason for them to be your enemy.
For the whole world, we have to have this agapao love. But nowhere does God say we have to phileo them, or love them with affection, like a brotherly love, where we would hug them or give them a kiss.
Jesus said you should not call a brother fool, did Jesus Christ ever call anyone a fool, another contradiction, right?
Mat 5:22 … but whoever shall say to his brother, Fool! shall be liable to hell fire(judgment).
But wait I thought the Lord called the Pharisees fools, twice in chapter 22. Well, they weren’t His brothers. How do we know they weren‘t His brothers? Because He was condemning them, because of their sins, but are they still His brothers, no.
Remember the occasion, where they said, your mother is looking for you, Lord? And He said, who is My mother, and who’s My brother, who so ever does the will of My Father, that’s My mother and that’s My brother.
Did the Pharisees do the will of His Father? No.
Were they His brother? No.
When He called them a fool, did He sin? No.
Should we call a brother fool? No, don’t you call a brother fool.
Jesus said you are My friends - phileo, that means dear friends, actively fond of you. But He put a little disclaimer on there, if you do what so ever I command you.
John 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
There's a song ‘What a Friend We Have in Jesus.’ Somebody read that scripture and wrote a song about it.
You might be thinking, 'if He’s such a friend, why don’t He help me out, like some of my friends would if they could? How come my friend Jesus, doesn’t do that? How come He doesn’t bail me out and how come He doesn’t do more things for me? How come He doesn’t make me feel better and get rid of this problem, if He’s really my Friend, why doesn’t He do that?' I have an answer for that; You know why He doesn’t do that? Because He says we’re His friends and He’s our friends, and we say 'wait, somebody I consider a friend will do more for me than I think that Jesus does for me, sometimes.' Don’t think that way.
“BECAUSE FRIENDS DON’T LET FRIENDS DRIVE DRUNK.”
That actually a spiritual statement. Because friends don’t let friends drive drunk, most of the time. When we want what we want and when we want it, and wonder why God doesn't give it to us. It’s because we want to get spiritually drunk, and we want to drive in this world spiritually drunk and friends don’t let friends drive drunk. Christ won’t let you do what could kill you, spiritually. So there is a reason why you don’t get everything you want, when you want it. There’s even more.
We don’t get it, because maybe it would be okay to have it, but He is building strength in His Saints,
spiritual strength. Those that can do without and still love God for not having what they think they need, now what do we call that? We call that living by faith, see. If you get everything you need, everything you want, everything you desire, you don’t have faith for anything. It’s when you don’t see a way out of the spiritual prison that Christ has put you in. It’s got a door with bars and windows with bars and there is no way out, you have got to pay the price. There is no way out, you got to pay the utter most for it. You say, 'I don’t even know what it is.' God knows!
Christ puts us in prison sometimes. We have to live by faith, we have no choice but to live by faith.
Either that or we give up on God, and throw it all away and say were through with this living Godly stuff.
We have got to live by faith.
I’m correcting a misconception of the Scriptures I have presented. It appears; you think that by everyone being saved that Christ’s sacrifice is negated. People can sin and still be forgiven. I’ve never said that. Ray has never said that either.
There is salvation available, and it is by grace, not our own personal works of righteousness, but we must FIRST REPENT. If I condoned my own past sins, I never would have repented of them.
People think my explanation of the Scriptures means “Yea but I can do whatever I want and not repent of them and it still leads to God anyway, doesn’t it?“ No it doesn’t, it leads to judgment and fiery indignation and the wrath of God. It’s not going to be happy or pleasant but it’s not going to be forever either.
“Where in times past you walked according to the course of this world… Among whom also we all had our conduct in times past in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh…” (Eph. 2:2-3).
“For ALL have sinned… Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Rom. 3:24-26).
Now where in there do you see it say, that really is a license to sin however much you want to sin in the future, because “it all leads to God ’anyway?” We are all going to be saved anyway and when we die we’re all going to heaven ‘anyway.’ No! That’s not the way it is.
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers [Gk: pornos-paramour/male prostitute], and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death” (Rev. 21:08). This is everyone who is not called and then hosen to be members of the Elect.
That doesn’t sound like you just do waltzing off to heaven ‘anyway,’ regardless of how you live.
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
That’s another way of saying, know ye not that the unrighteous are not going to heaven ‘anyway.’ Know ye not that the unrighteousness is not a street that leads to God ‘anyway.’
Be not deceived: neither fornicators [Gk: paramours], nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [Gk: catamites], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [Gk: sodomites] nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionors, shall inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:9-10).
There it is! The kingdom of God is to be inherited by Christ’s Elect First. They are the first fruits after Christ. Once Christ’s reign is over, and everyone has received judgment and been made to repent, and Christ turns over the kingdom back to god and God is all in all, THEN ALL will inherit the Kingdom of God and be like the Elect. It’s not automatic and it’s not instantaneous… it’s a process that occurs over time.
When it speaks about the whole world, how many are we talking about? Let’s look at some scripture. Does the whole world sometimes mean only a portion of the world? Follow this closely. I have it, ‘the whole world,’ but now sometimes it uses ‘the world,’ and it doesn’t include every last single human being, it just has a generality to it, ok. But the phrase ‘the whole world’ in the NT is used only half a dozen times and every time it’s used it means all humanity.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is(being) proclaimed throughout the whole world.
Oops, did I shot myself in the foot? Do we really believe that His Word was spoken about in the WHOLE world? All the inhabitants of the whole world, including China? Was the faith of the Romans being spoken of in China? I don’t think so. Well then how can I say every place where the phrase ‘the whole world’ is, it means all humanity, how can I say that?
Because this is not translated properly, that’s why. It should be translated in the aorist tense and the Greek ‘is BEING proclaimed.’ Rotherham and the Concordant both have ‘is being proclaimed.’ That’s the indefinite of the Greek aorist, it’s the is, was and will be tense. It’s the past, present and future tense, it’s the indefinite tense.
Here’s a question, is the faith of the Romans being proclaimed in China today? Yes it is. It certainly is. So when it says “is being proclaimed,” will it continue until it reaches everyone? Absolutely.
1 John 2:2 and He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the WHOLE WORLD.
How does this prove the salvation of all? [Because it says the whole world.] Does it say the whole world will be saved? [But it’s talking about all the inhabitants, isn’t it.] But does it say all the inhabitants, all the people, every human being on earth will be saved? Does it say that in there someplace? [He’s the propitiation for the sins, if you take away all the sins.] You’re right. You’ve got to go back to the word propitiation. That threw me for a minute because of this verse in John 1:29 says, “Behold, the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world!”
But this word propitiation means atonement, starting back in the OT . Propitiation is a atonement and it’s a covering for sin. It covers sin. Now if it covers sin, does it cover it for a while and then it gets out? Well it did in Israel. It covered it for how long? One year, is all it covered. The high priest went into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled the Ark of the Covenant with the blood and that was on the Day of Atonement, one time a year. That was good for a whole year And guess what? They had to do it again. But then we read in Hebrews 7 that our High Priest, He entered into the Holy of Holies ONE time and that was good, just one time. So this propitiation is a one time deal. Notice it, it’s for not only our sins, but the sins of the whole world, all the inhabitants of the world. It covers all the sins of the world.
They would agree with that, because at least we have a scripture that the theologian would agree on, that that propitiation covers all sins. But then they turn it into a lie by suggesting, only though IF you accept that propitiation. It doesn’t actually cover all sin, only if you let it. Is that what it says? No! That is not what it says, so let’s not be making a liar out of what Jesus Christ did. He IS the propitiation for all sin and not just for our sins, the sins of the WHOLE world.
Atonement is ‘kaphar’ - to cover, placate, conceal, appease, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pardon away, purge away, reconcile. Man those are powerful words, anyone of them is a powerful word. When all the population of the whole world has their sins covered, placated, appeased, cleansed, disannulled, forgiven, piled on with mercy, pardoned, purged away and they are now reconciled to God, THEY’RE SAVED!
So there is a scripture that PROVES all humanity will be saved, right there.
Either He is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world or He’s not. This says He IS. Therefore all mankind must be saved or He’s not the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE world. Because then there would be sins of some people that are not covered and they’re going to go to hell and be in a state of spiritual death, which God is not pleased with, but tough toenails God can’t have what He pleases. Nonsense! It’s heresy, all of it’s heresy.
When it says whole; we not only have world, being the population of the world, not the trees and stones. It means the whole, ‘holos’ - whole or all, complete, altogether, every whit, throughout, that’s what whole means. Whole never means half of or a part of. The whole means the complete, the whole enchilada, the whole ball of wax, right. That’s what Jesus is, if He doesn’t do it, then He isn’t the propitiation. Well what does the scripture say? Is He or isn’t He? HE IS!
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Now it doesn’t have ‘whole’ there. It means the inhabitants of the world. So we don’t have the word whole there. Actually I put this verse in before I realized I was just going to deal with the ‘whole world.’ But it doesn’t matter, is He the Savior of the world? Is there anything in the Greek there that insinuates that He is only the potential or possible or is it emphatic? HE IS! He sent Him to BE the Savior of the world.
Now here we have the same thing as this nonsense that is still being taught by some, that Jesus Christ was made to BE sin. You can’t be something that you’re not. Sin mean breaking the law, lawlessness, law breaking. Now you can’t be a lawbreaker and yet you never break the law. You can’t be a Nascar driver, if you don’t driver a race car. See you can’t be what you’re not. To say you can be something that you’re not, is just plain grammatical stupidity. Take away the fact that the scripture teach no such thing, but you can’t be something that you are not. Jesus Christ can’t BE the Savior of the world if He doesn’t save the world.
I love this scripture in Isaiah.
Isaiah 26:9 “…for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn (Rotherham and Young both say: “will HAVE learned) righteousness.
When the judgment are fully in the world, everyone ‘will have’ learned, because that is the end results of judgment. It’s not the beginning results, because there is a process. He’s coming to judge the world, that’s a process. But when it’s finally done and His judgments are now in the whole world, all the inhabitants of the world will have learned righteousness. It’s a done deal. When every human being will have learned righteousness, that’s this way of life, guess what? You’ll be saved.
Yet how many hate this scripture. I’ve had people write me back, when they saw that I put this someplace in one of my papers; “…for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will have learned righteousness. And they say, ‘Ray read the next verse.’
Isa 26:10 Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness;
Then they say, 'there you go Ray, the wicked won’t learn righteousness, you can show them favor but they won’t learn.’ Well I know that. That doesn’t contradict the verse above it, they just think it does. They want it to contradict, but it doesn’t.
It doesn’t contradict any more than when God says He will rain upon the just and the unjust, (Matt 5:45). That by raining upon the unjust, He is showing that being unjust is a good thing with God? Because if you are unjust to Him, He will be just to you? He will reward you for being unjust? That nonsense.
It just shows that He is not enforcing His judgment now. Yea you can show favor to the wicked, he’ll still be wicked, he won’t respond. Christ says, if he slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other cheek. Well guess what? There would be plenty of people that would slap the other cheek too. Yea you can show favor and they won’t respon
DO ALL SCRIPTURES USING ‘ALL’ MEAN ONLY SOME?
We have shown where some scriptures, at least, using the word ‘all’ means only some. Do all scriptures that use the word ‘all’ means only some? We’ve got to prove our points here, one at a time, as we go.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, that every (pas - all) idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Does anyone, we or the church or theologians, believe for one minute that He only means some of the idle words spoken by man will be judged? Only some? Does anyone believe that? Not even the theologians believe that’s only talking about some, many or a few. They believe that means all. Why? Because they have no problem with that being all, they have no problem with saying, ‘yea I need to judge all my own idol words, I can’t be saying any idol words anymore than anybody else.’ They’ll agree with that, because it doesn’t save everybody, so they still have that nasty little doctrine to hang on to, you see.
Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, it is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every (pas - all])word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
Again theologians say, ‘well that does mean every or all, it mean we should live by some of God’s Words and the parts of God’s Word you don’t like, we can throw those away.’ No they wouldn’t say that.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
You know I could play their game and say, that’s the word ‘pas’ it means some or many, it doesn’t mean absolutely everyone. I’m one that it doesn’t include, I’ve not sinned. And we know some people who have claimed that, just a little while back. They say, ‘I no longer sin.’ Of course it is in the past tense, so even if you are sinless now, it says “have sinned,” at least in the past. Really would any theologian say that doesn’t mean all? No they wouldn’t. But when it says “all have sinned” they say it means all. But when it says all will be saved, it doesn’t mean all. What’s their proof? What’s our proof?
Now do you see why I put this study together today? They don’t have a personal problem with being a sinner, but they have a major problem with everybody being saved. They just don’t like that, you see. So we are going to have to go a different route here, if we want to expose those that contradict the Word of God. It’s one thing to just say it, but if you are going to really expose it, then you have to prove it.
So this one say “all have sinned.” Can we find other proof that the “all have sinned” means everyone? Yes we can.
Rom 3:12 They are all [is that proof? No not according to theologians] gone out of the way, they are together [is that proof that all have sinned? No not according to theologians] become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no not one:
There‘s the proof, you can‘t fight with that. Is there one person who has never sinned? “No not [even] one.” You have a double negative “no not one.” So yes we do have proof.
Here is another one. What Jesus Christ said “there is none good,” none (Matt 19:17). Now that excludes any, but God. So yea we can prove that all have sinned means absolutely everyone.
Now can we prove that all will be saved, means absolutely everyone will be saved?
Any suggestions.
[Is all, especially believers proof? (1 Tim 4:10)] Yes especially believers, but what about “all (pas) men,” the all is the many. He will save many that come to Christ, in the future and especially those who are already believers.
I told you I was going to play the theologians advocate here.
[Well, Col. 1:20, should cover just about everybody] We already went over that, but what in that scripture did she base it on? ‘All’ it was wrong, there is more in that scripture than what she based it on. That is a good scripture, but not the point that was brought out. That’s why I just glossed over it.
You are going to find as we go over this, that there are many scripture that say nothing about the salvation of all men, that prove that God will save all men. The scripture doesn’t say any such thing, but yet it is proof. That’s what I meant by what we use to say, there more than one way to skin a cat. There is more than one way to get from here to Toledo. You can take the shortest cut, but there are other ways and they will get you there too.
Now it says “no not one” now I want to prove that the “no” in the Greek is ‘ou’ and it never means some or any. I want to prove that, so we know each word is going to nail it down.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that says unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but…
It says ‘not,’ it’s the same Greek word ‘ou,’ it’s translated a lot of times no, not, nay, neither, never, none, nothing, that’s what it says in Strong’s. That is pretty powerful. Now does that mean some or a few? No, it’s no, not, nay, neither, never, none, nothing. “Not EVERY one...” Guess what? ‘Every’ there is the same word translated ‘ou,’ it’s the word ‘pas’ that means - all, some or many, okay. “…that say unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” No not any “… that say to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;” but that is not the end of the sentence. “But,” here is the disclaimer, “but,” here is the exception to the rule. None, absolutely none, BUT.
You can eat all the M&Ms, BUT the yellow ones, I want those. According to that statement are you allowed to eat even one yellow M&M? No. You can eat all of them, BUT.
Now here it doesn’t say all of them, but none of them. It says, “Not everyone” but in the Greek it’s no ou. ‘No all’ should be saved, but it doesn’t sound right, it’s not proper grammar to talk like that. So they say instead of ‘no all’ that say unto Me, Lord, Lord…” “Not (same negative, no - not) every (pas - all)” and it’s proper, it’s the same. It’s not a bad translation, that’s the way it should be translated “Not every” but when you say “not every” aren’t you suggesting maybe there are some? See when you say, not everyone will make it to the Olympics, well some will, right. But then you have the ‘but.’ So yes it can be translated “not everyone.” Everyone “but,” here’s the “but,” see so it’s still proper. So now we have literally, “ou pas - no all,” which means “no all, no any, no many, no whatever many or few.” “But (only) he that does the will of My Father” (Matt 7:21b) So not a single person that DOESN’T do the will of Jesus’ Father, will be in the kingdom.
The no not, the not all, the no all, clarifies that. None, none whatsoever, No exception. So here the negative, no - not - neither - nor - never - ou, it means EVERY, there is NO exception.
OK, this is a lot of information, JL. The fallen angels are already incarcerated in the deepest abyss of Hades called Tartaroo. Though they not be burned up, they are in torment. When we die, we are also spirit, and it is our spirit that is either in the peace of heaven in the Lord's presence, or in the torment of Hades (not Tartaroo) until the Judgment. The Lake of fire is a place of torment, not destruction, for even as you said, spirit is not destroyed.
As far as our works being tried by fire, yes. However, a person is not saved by works, but rewarded for them. If a saved person has not works that Jesus did through Him, he is still saved (snatched out of a burning building, so to speak, but never put into the fire himself). This is a matter of error of interpretation of this verse, which I believe is addressed in this hub.
Once again, you have quoted Isaiah 26:9, but you are neglecting the NEXT VERSE. Not all will learn righteousness.
Regarding every knee bowing and every tongue confessing does not mean salvation for all. The devils also believe and indeed confessed the identity of Jesus (i.e. Legions) and yet were not saved. Yes, indeed, even the fallen angels fear God; Satan himself fears God. They know God has all authority, and they know they have but a short time to deceive the world until their end comes.
Regarding the marriage feast, do you recall there was one who came to the feast that was not in a white robe? He was cast out of the marriage feast.
Regarding Hebrews 11 and those who died in faith without having received the promised Messiah; they indeed were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I have yet to study up on predestination. Because there is so much in the Bible about those who will not repent and are lost, and indeed are thrown into the Lake of Fire, I believe God knows who these people are, and He knows who will reject Him. It's hard for me to swallow that there indeed will be those who do not inherit eternal life, but rather eternal damnation. I do not write it off as God's fault, but that He gave man the dominion to rule the earth. Man gave that dominion to Satan. God requires man to give that dominion back over to God because of the shed blood of His only begotten Son. If we don't give that dominion back over to Jesus, we will have the same fate as the god of this world, Satan, the father of lies.
Regarding our loved ones that are lost; the rich man had loved ones he wished would believe, after knowing he was in Hades for eternity, but his family still had a chance. God knew his family members would not believe, so this must be their predestination ~ hell (Hades) and eventually, the Lake of Fire. God does give people over to their desires because their hearts are hardened. Basically, He seals their fate because of their rebellion. I can bet Pharaoh is in torment and will be forever, obviously predestined by God. God did not and will not give grace to Pharaoh.
God tells us in the Word not to love our family members more than Him, or we are not worthy of being His disciples. Our family members each have their own accountability to God. We are to witness to them, but know it will be the Spirit that will call them; thus they do have the choice to receive by faith or reject because of hardness of their hearts.
Death and Hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire means the second resurrection of the unbelieving. The death of the bodies and the torment of the soul. They are reuinited, body and soul and thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is confirmed in Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Lake of Fire, Geenna)".
Yes, God knew Adam and Eve would sin; that's why the death of God on the cross in the flesh of Jesus Christ was predestined. However, there is no more judgment for those who accept this gift of salvation (Romans 8:1). If they don't, they are still under the Law of sin and death.
I will continue in patience, JL, for if this hub was written for no one else, I am blessed you are here.
JL,
You said, "If Christ is our head and we do the Will of the Father then the first three commandments are automatic, since God loves and will save All of mankind, then we can finally love all our enemies as well as our friends. Now the remaining seven commandments no longer have any meaning to us." Excuse me? The last seven commandments have no meaning? This is ludicrous! I don't say that to be mean, but no where in the Bible do I read we are to ignore the commandment of loving our neighbor as ourselves.
Regarding the flesh and spirit scriptures, those are very true. Remember, that Mat 15:18-19 and Mark 7:21 tell us that the breaking of the commandments come out of the heart, which is wicked. This is why circumcision of the heart is salvation (Rom 2:29). The fruit of the Spirit replaces, or puts to death the fruit of death (Rom 7:5).
Ok, on to your next comment...
JL, you quoted John 3:16. If you look up the word loved (as in God so loved the world), it is not phileo, nor have I ever stated such. It is indeed agapao, which is a social, moral and principled love. Agape love is that of friendship, attachment and kissing. James 4:4 states, "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."
You said, "That’s why I use the KJV. Even though it has eternal punishment, and there is no such thing as eternal punishment." Who says? You've just shown you reject what the Word of God clearly states! Please quote a scripture that uses eonian (age).
You said, "“Father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34) Now that’s agape love." I don't see the word love used here at all. And, in fact, the Jews crucified Jesus, right? Are they not His chosen ones? The Word says in Rom 11:26 "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.'"
Ok, now to your next comment...I really have to go get some groceries, but will take some more time to keep up with you.
JL, you said, "The only places you will see God phileo anyone, is His Son and us, the elect, no one else." Phileo love is used in reference to brotherly love, which we share with other believers, along with agape, not agapao. We do not love the world with phileo or agapao love.
You said, "So we need to have this agape love for our neighbors." When Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves, he uses agapao, not agape or phileo (unless our neighbor is saved). Agapao is the way we love our enemies, and yes, Jesus was not joined with the Pharisees because they honored Him with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him. They were His enemies! He came to minister to the "lost sheep of Israel" (Mat 15:24). They were LOST, not saved.
While I understand what you MEAN by "spiritually drunk", there is a scripture that tells us not to be drunk with wine, but to be filled with the Spirit. On the day of Pentecost, the disciples were accused of being drunk because it can appear very similar when one is baptized in the Holy Spirit. This means to be controlled by (so don't be controlled by wine, but rather controlled by the Holy Spirit).
I say, "AMEN" to living by Faith and trusting in God's will for our lives. To want what we want and not to get it is living in the flesh. To claim God's promises and stand on them with patience, which is a fruit of the Spirit, is to live by faith in His righteousness. Amen.
Now, on to your next comment...
JL, you are right on about REPENTANCE. The baptism of John is a showing of that repentance. Repentance means to turn from our sinful ways, our sinful hearts, and give those to Jesus and trust Him to make us that new creation. Without this, there is no salvation.
You said, "and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Rom. 3:24-26)." Truly, this salvation is through believing (which means to entrust one's spiritual well-being to Jesus Christ) in Jesus. Amen.
Regarding grace giving us a license to sin? Absolutely not, for it says in Jude 1:4 "For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."
Everything you said there was correct, with exception to the error of your doctrine, and I quote, "and everyone has received judgment and been MADE TO REPENT, and Christ turns over the kingdom back to god and God is all in all, THEN ALL will inherit the Kingdom of God and be like the Elect." This is FALSE. No one is MADE to repent. It is an act of hearing the Word, choosing to obey the call of the Spirit unto salvation, or chooseing to reject the call unto damnation.
On to your next comment...
JL, you said, "1 John 2:2 and He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the WHOLE WORLD." Propitiation means He's made the WAY (atonement, as you said) to forgive sin, but not all will enter into the gate (through Him alone), and will thus remain in their sin. Why is the gospel to be preached to the whole world? Because, faith comes by hearing!! The propitiation for sin has been made to all who will accept it, which I know is very difficult for you to understand. No one is MADE to REPENT, or FORCED to salvation. God does know who will and will not be saved, but He cannot judge someone who has not heard the Word, right? That would be unfair!
Check out this verse: John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." There will be no excuse when Christ returns, for all the world will have heard the gospel and will be accountable.
Regarding the blood sacrifice of the lamb once a year, this was done by the Jews, and did not atone for the sins of the "dogs", the Gentiles. Only Jesus could do that, and Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, and thus Gentiles are grafted into the chosen, the Jews, upon salvation through Jesus Christ's atonement...through FAITH.
You have disregarded so much of the Bible when you make such an arrogant statement as follows: "But then they turn it into a lie by suggesting, only though IF you accept that propitiation. It doesn’t actually cover all sin, only if you let it." Jesus' blood will cover all sin, but it is wasted and has no effect to those who reject His sacrifice. That is biblically true.
You also said, "so let’s not be making a liar out of what Jesus Christ did. He IS the propitiation for all sin and not just for our sins, the sins of the WHOLE world." JL, if His blood covers all sin, then why the need for the Lake of Fire for purification, if man is made righteous through the blood alone? Are you not lessening the value of the very blood of God? You guys had to come up with a reason for the Lake of Fire, other than condemnation and eteral hell fire. It doesn't add up, when you consider it this way, does it?
Regarding the word "ALL", I can say "all my pillows", but that doesn't mean all pillows. God has those who are His and ALL who believe in Him are saved. Look at this verse in John 17:9 "I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given Me, for they are Yours." Does Jesus even pray for the world? NO!! Does the world (the lost) get heard by God when they pray? NO!! Based on John 9:31 "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will."
You said, "and they are now reconciled to God, THEY’RE SAVED!" We must accept our Lord to be saved. It's not accepted by all men, therefore, though the gift is sitting in their mailbox, if they don't go open it and allow Jesus to change their hearts, the box sits to no avail.
I already may have shared this verse with you when someone asked Jesus if all would be saved: Luke 13:23-24 "Someone asked him, 'Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?' He said to them, 'Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.'" Not be able to? What? No, not all will be saved. Jesus said so.
Jesus did become sin. He was separated from the Father because He took our sin upon Him and nailed it's consequence to the cross. Cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree (Gal 3:13).
You continually quote Isaiah 26:9 and neglect verse 10. Not all will learn righteousness!! And this is your response? Do you not have eyes? And I quote you, "Then they say, 'there you go Ray, the wicked won’t learn righteousness, you can show them favor but they won’t learn.’ Well I know that. That doesn’t contradict the verse above it, they just think it does. They want it to contradict, but it doesn’t." Have you done this at least once already this hub, JL? Reminder: "That’s why I use the KJV. Even though it has eternal punishment, and there is no such thing as eternal punishment." Don't you see what you're doing?
Regarding the just and the unjust, parallel this with the parable of the wheat and the tares. The landowner told his workers not to pull up the tares yet, so the wheat would not be harmed in the process. However, on the day the Reaper comes (Jesus), He will separate the wheat from the tares; the tares will be bound and cast into the FIRE, and the wheat will be gathered into His barn (heaven). This is why it rains both on the just (wheat) and the unjust (tares) right now, until He comes.
Okay, onto the next...
Regarding ALL:
Mat 12:26 "all idle word" (idle is the condition)
Mat 4:4 "all words that proceed out of the mouth of God." (the Bible is the condition) Speaking of God's Word, have you not already stated twice that the Word isn't what it says? Not all will learn righteousness and there is an eternal hell?
Rom 3:23 truly means all. All have sinned, for the Word says if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8). The difference is, those who have accepted Christ's atonement for their sin have their sins covered. Those who do not, do not have the covering.
1 Tim 4:10: Yes, Jesus is the Savior for all men, especially for those who believe (it is not finished). You can't twist this verse, for there will be more believers (not all). The Lord is putting off His return for this reason (2 Pet 3:9). He would have no need to put off His return if all men were already saved.
John 3:18 states, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
Mat 7:21 "NOT EVERY ONE that says unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but" --- JL, this says NOT ALL!! Can't you see that? You go on to say, "But (only) he that does the will of My Father” (Matt 7:21b) So not a single person that DOESN’T do the will of Jesus’ Father, will be in the kingdom.
You've just totally contradicted yourself and your teaching that ALL will be saved. It is indeed "ONLY THOSE WHO DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM." That is the TRUTH. Amen.
Now, off to my grocery shopping!! Love in our Lord to you, JL. Keep on keeping your heart open, please. I've read every word, and I pray you do the same for me...with patience.
Carrie,
I appreciate you commenting on all that I posted. I am reading and re-reading all that you wrote. I know it was a lot but wow you kept up! your starting to post like me now hahaha.
-JL
JL, it sure is nice getting along in the love of the Lord. I believe we will make progress, for we live by faith, right? I do pray you will read "Will He Know You?" and also "Who Do You Say That I AM" on my Judah's Daughter profile. God be with you ~~
Carrie,
you don't have to post this msg. I thought it was the best way instead of email to give you a heads up.
I certainly agree w/getting along w/the love of the lord in our hearts. I honestly hate arguing and likewise do not enjoy conflict. Unfortunately, it is a part of this human experience we all must endure to the end. I do apologize for past conversations where I presented myself in a less than godly manner. I'm human unfortunately and thou I strive for that higher calling, there are moments when I fail in maintaining my humility.
I just wanted to give you a heads up. I doubt your sitting by your comp waiting for my responses but I didn't want you to think I was stumped by your questions or avoiding them.
I'm still reading your other hubs and also attempting to work on my responses and trying to be thorough w/o going on and on but it's difficult for me because I'm very analytical & as a writer, I tend to want to explain the explanation for my explanation, etc. which can be maddening, even for me at times.
Additionally, I work in DC and without going into too much detail, I'm in a extremely political climate and dealing with major global issues and this week has not been very kind in regards to my free time that I normally enjoy where I can post freely and frequently.
I do apologize if it seems my responses are not a priority. Indeed, I consider these hubs & my responses to the questions you raised to be extremely important... but as a professional yourself, you must know that at times, life sometimes manages to get in the way of the things we consider high priority.
Hope all is well on your end.
JL
JL, I so appreciate your kind message. I'm in the job-search stage at the moment, so anyone who reads this message, I would appreciate prayers. When I'm back in the work force, I'm sure I won't have as much time here as well. Thank you for letting the reading audience know. Praying for you as well :-)
Carrie,
What's your field of expertise? Are you on the East coast or west coast? I did a tremendous amount of praying over the weekend, not unlike every other weekend or day but I prayed that the lines of communication are kept open even if there is disagreement, there can be disagreement but still a loving atmosphere. :)
In addition to the above, I spent time researching even more to make sure that I presented clear answer(s) to the points brought up in our hub posts, I'm also going to try to explain my understanding more in depth. I think even if you disagree with the points I make, it will still give you a better insight into why I understand the Scriptures the way I do and what exactly I am stating that I have learned from my own studying and research.
-JL
My field of expertise? I guess I just study the Bible on foundational doctrines, which of course, we differ in our interpretations; namely, that what I quote as the Hebrew or Greek text is disputed by your founder(s). That's not going to get us anywhere, nor for the reading audience, in my humble opinion.
I am on the West Coast, actually ~ Carrie Bradshaw is just a Hub name, as you know. I would probably prefer that readers seek out your hubs if they wish to know more about your doctrinal beliefs and interpretations, rather than hash them out here, as I really am not open to accepting non-Hebrew/Greek translations of the Bible, since these are the original languages of the Bible and my Concordance is the only reference I have, which Bible scholars have used for generations.
I appreciate your loving spirit, and I respect you for that, as I'm sure is mutual. It's so much better than hostility ~ I have grown and you have grown, not to be so offended by what is shared on opposite ends of the spectrum. God bless you ~
Carrie,
I meant field of expertise as in the job search. You had mentioned you were in the job search stage.
In regards to interpretations, I too am referencing the original Greek and Hebrew Scriptures. The Concordance is a great tool, however it is not entirely accurate. No study tool is unfortunately. This is why were should use ALL tools at our disposal. It's unfortunate, but just because a person was or has been commissioned to translate, doesn't mean they translated correctly or honestly. There are many instances where translators are simply not consistent with the translations. Hell and Grave are just two examples. There are many such instances. The reason for this is biased opinions. The translators and the religions they represented "fudged" several points throughout Scripture in order to facilitate their doctrines. If the Scriptures state one thing and it doesn't fit with a doctrine, the translators by way of their religion made a few changes in order to make their doctrine appear more truthful. This is an accurate statement and has been proven more than once within the realms of bible scholarship. It is only until after the fact, do people finally realize, sometimes years later the errors they have made and the consequences of them. Look at the Catholic church and their shameful behaviors all through-out history. Only now are they beginning to realize and accept their actions and ungoldy and unscriptural. But they do not repent as they should, so their doctrines will not change. The same is true for EVERY religion out there. How many times have Jehovah's Witnesses claimed the end of the world was this year or that year. The same with LDS and others.
Honest scholarship by unbiased bible students has uncovered these purposeful or accidental errors for years. However, the churches and the religions they promote do not wish to give up their doctrines and thereby continue to promote false doctrines. Without those doctrines those religions and churches would wither away and die.
People all over the world throughout history have studied the Scriptures on their own and their knowledge is only as good as the tools they employ. Searching for the treasures of God's word is not a simple task that is undertaken and completed in a year or even 5 years. It is a lifelong venture.
You say your not open to accepting non-Greek and Hebrew translations of the bible and I have not presented anything less than that. I think that you beleive because I happen to agree with the exhaustive amount of research that Ray Smith has done that somehow I'm worshiping him or following him blindly. Ray Smith is a study tool, the assertions that I have presented here, although in accord with Ray's understanding of the Scriptures are based upon my own studying. Just so the record is clear, and you understand where I am coming from I do not belong to any religion or cult or man-made institution.
Of course I understand that people do not like to be presented with anything that contradicts their opinion. I respect that, beleive me. It's much better to have open discussions than to throw accusations and curses at each other. I actually worry about saying the wrong thing and ending this open communication we have been experiencing. I hate drama and hate arguing, unfortunately it can be a part of life in certain situations, but that doesn't mean I can't be aware of that potential and do my best to not be confrontational and appreciative of others understandings.
I think we agree on a great deal more than you may realize.
Carrie,
In the spirit of sharing and understanding... you mentioned you only quote from the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures. I don't know if you knew this or not but just in case you didn't I've put together a list of Scriptures which are included in bibles today but if you know the original Greek and Hebrew, you know these are passages which are spurious and not Scriptural but people still try and use them to defend their doctrines.
SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
Spurious means FALSE/Falsified, erroneously attributed origin, deceitful nature or quality. Below are spurious passages that are NOT in the original Hebrew and Greek yet are defended by people who claim because they were put in the bible by “translators” then they must be true. Honest lengthy scholarship would reveal these passages for what they are. False and together or when combined, they create false doctrines.
Matt. 5:23 without a cause
Matt. 6:13 For thine is the Kingdom, and the power,
and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matt. 6:25 or what ye shall drink*
Matt. 16:2 When it is evening, ye say, it will be fair
weather: for the sky is red.
Matt. 16:3 This entire verse
Matt. 17:21 and fasting
Matt. 18:12 into the mountains
Matt. 2O:7 and whatsoever is right, that shall ye
receive
Matt. 22:13 and take him away
Matt. 23:35 son of Barachias*
Matt. 24:10 and shall hate one another*
Matt. 24:31 sound of a*
Matt. 24:41 women shall be
Matt. 25:6 cometh
Matt. 27:52 and the graves were opened*
Matt. 27: 53 and went*
Matt. 28:19 therefore
Mark 4:37 so that it was now full*
Mark 6:51 beyond measure and wondered
Mark 7:8 For as the washing of pots and cups:
and many other such like things as ye do
Mark 7:14 unto me every one of you
Mark 9:24 with tears
Mark 9:29 and fasting
Mark 9:44 This entire verse
Mark 9:45 into the fire that shall never be quenched
Mark 9:46 This entire verse
Mark 9:47 fire
Mark 9:49 and every sacrifice shall be salted
with salt
Mark 10:24 for them that trust in riches
Mark 10:30 houses and brethren and sisters and mothers
and children and land with persecutions*
Mark 14:30 twice*
Mark 14:68 and the cock crew
Mark 14:72 the second time* twice*
Mark 16:9-20 All these verses
Luke 2: 40 in spirit
Luke 8: 45 and sayest thou, Who touched me?
Luke 16:16 and every man presseth into it
Luke 17:12 which stood afar off*
Luke 17:35 women
Luke 18:11 with himself*
Luke 22:43 This entire verse
Luke 22:44 This entire verse
Luke 22:68 me, nor let me go
Luke 23:5 teaching*
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father forgive them;
for they know not what they do
Luke 24:42 and of an honeycomb
John 1:25 asked him, and*
John 3:13 which is in heaven
John 4:9 or the Jews have no dealings with the
Samaritans
John 5:3 waiting for the moving of the water
John 5:4 This entire verse
John 5:25 and now is*
John 8:1-11 all these verses
John 8:59 going through the midst of them and so
passed by
John 16:16 because I go to the Father
John 19:23 and also his coat*
John 21:25 This entire verse
Acts 6:3 Holy Ghost and (should read "spirit of")
Acts 6:8 Faith (should read "grace")
Acts 8:37 This entire verse
Acts 9:31 churches (should read "church") were
(should read "was")
Acts 15:32 and confirmed them*
Acts 18:5 pressed in the spirit (should read
"earnestly
occupied with the Word")
Acts 18:21 I must by all means keep this feast that
cometh
in Jerusalem: but
Rom. 3:22 and upon all
Rom. 6:12 it in
Rom. 7:6 that being dead (should read "being dead
to that")
Rom. 8:26 for us
Rom. 11:6 But if it be of works, then it is no more
grace;
otherwise work is no more work
Rom. 14:6 and he that regardeth not the day, to
the Lord
he doth not regard it
1 Cor. 2:1 testimony (should read "mystery")
1 Cor. 6:20 and in your spirit, which are God's
1 Cor. 7:5 fasting and
1 Cor. 10:28 for the earth is the Lord's and the
fullness thereof
1 Cor. 15:24 cometh
2 Cor. 4:14 by (should read "with")
Gal. 3:1 that ye should not obey the truth
Gal. 3:17 in Christ
Gal. 5:19 adultery
Gal. 5:21 murders
Eph. 5:9 Spirit (should read "light")
Eph. 5:30 of his flesh, and of his bones
2 Thess. 2:9 Even him
1 Tim. 3:16 God (should read "who")*
1 Tim. 4:12 in spirit*
1 Tim. 6:5 from such with draw thyself*
2 Tim. 3:3 without natural affection*
Heb. 12:18 mount that might be touched and that burned
with fire (should read "fire that might be
touched and burned")*
Heb. 12:20 or thrust through with a dart*
James 5:1 Confess your faults (should read "Therefore
confess your sins")*
1 Pet. 2:5 spiritual (before the word "sacrifices")
1 Pet. 3:8 courteous (should read "humble")
2 Pet. 1:1 God and our (should read "our Lord and")*
1 John 3:16 of God
1 John 5:7 in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy
Ghost: and these three are one
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness
in earth
1 John 5:13 and that ye may believe on the name of
the Son of God
Rev. 1:17 unto me, Fear not*
Rev. 2:22 their (should read "her")*
Rev. 5:3 neither under the earth*
Rev. 5:9 us (omitted by the Alexandrian Manuscript,
one of the three oldest Manuscripts known)
Rev. 5:10 us (should read "them") we
(should read "they")
Rev. 5:13 and under the earth*
Rev. 6:2 to conquer (should read "he conquered")*
Rev. 9:4 neither any green thing*
Rev. 9:13 the four horns of*
Rev. 10:6 and the sea, and the things which are
therein*
Rev. 11:17 and art to come*
Rev. 12:12 inhibitors of* of (before the words
"the sea")
Rev. 14:5 before the throne of God*
Rev. 14:12 here are they*
Rev. 16:5 and shalt be (should read "the holy")*
Rev. 16:7 another out of*
Rev. 16:11 and their sores* of their deeds*
Rev. 16:17 from the throne*
Rev. 18:22 of whatsoever craft he be* and the stone
of a millstone shall be heard no more at
all in thee*
Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again
until the thousand Years were finished*
Rev. 21:24 of them which are saved* and honor*
Rev. 21:26 and honor*
Rev. 22:3 more*
Carrie,
Sorry in my posting regarding spurious passages, I placed asterisks next to certain passages, I forgot to include this explanation of the reason for the asterisks.
* Omitted by the Sinaitic Manuscript.
Those not marked are omitted by both the Sinaitic AND Vatican Manuscripts.
Anyone who has any knowledge of the original Scriptures in Hebrew and Greek, of course knows about the spurious passages, these shouldn't be included in our modern bibles, but yet they are. Translator error or outright deception?
One in particular proves the trinity doctrine as false.
JL, thank you for that information; however, none of those particular items would be strong enough to support a foundational doctrine on their own. All doctrine is founded upon in-depth, doctrinal study, which would include all passages relating to the doctrine in the Bible available to us (and I say this because some books were added ~ like the Apocrypha, or omitted ~ like Enoch and Jasher).
Per our earlier discussion, the word for eternal and everlasting, for example, you simply disagree means what the Greek dictionary says it means. There's nothing strong enough to convince me the Greek definition is incorrect.
We all have to do the best we can with what we have. I believe the Lord God knows when we intentionally and willfully change the meaning of His Word to suit our own fancies. Sure, I'd LOVE to believe there is no hell and that all will be saved, but then I would be following a doctrine that cannot be proven Biblically 100%, without ignoring, changing or mistranslating what is written that states otherwise. There's no budging for me on this.
I've recently been on a forum where I have challenged some of the Catholic practices, though their roots are true (the gospel message). They believe the church was founded upon Peter (Petros, Kepha, Cephus), which means "piece of rock". The church was founded upon the Petra (boulder) of Jesus Christ. Praying to or with dead saints is prohibited in the Bible, yet they continue to do this. There are many things, but there's no way I would ever change my mind about these things.
Regarding Orthodox Christianity and their traditional teaching that Lucifer is Satan ~ I have challenged them as well, and to date, no one can prove that Lucifer is indeed Satan, but they still teach it, even though.
I am a Bible-believing follower of Christ. I don't claim any denomination, only Jesus, the Petra of my faith. This is the only Church He has. His church. He is the High Priest of that Church, and He makes us to be not only His children, but also priests with Him. We don't need an earthly priesthood any longer, as LDS insist we do.
You talk about Jehovah's Witnesses or any other "cult"; they have literally rewritten the Bible, as those of your Ray Smith are doing ~ the Concordant Literal Translation. There is no need to re-write the Bible...ever!!! If you wish to interpret the Bible in a particular way, simply find proof of the original languages that absolutely support your doctrine and publish the study tools. Why anyone would dare to re-write the Bible is incredibly blasphemous, in my opinion.
Anyhow, I could go on and on ~ but I have addressed many of L. Ray Smith's interpretations in this hub and just the mere fact that he is way off the mark with this information would cause any jury to doubt his credibility. I understand you don't claim to follow ALL of his teachings, so it's good you remain open to further study and reasoning.
Carrie feel free to read any of my hubs. I welcome your comments and enjoy this open dialogue.
I sure like you as a person, JL ~~ this has been wonderful. I know if you and I truly love our God, He is faithful to reveal all truth by the power of His Holy Spirit. What's most important is the gospel, and I know you believe that Jesus is the Only Way, that He existed as the Word before He became the Word made flesh, born of a virgin, coneived by the Holy Spirit, gave His life for us on the cross and is our Savior, our righteousness, our holiness, our everlasting (yes, everlasting) LIFE. Amen!!
This is an excellent hub.
Christianity has been infiltrated by many eastern philosophies. People try to reconcile these particular teachings with the Bible's particular teachings.
2Timothy 4:3-4 'For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts, shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.'
Many today, even Christians, treat the Bible as a virtuous book of nice ideals that can be used and compromised to fit anyone's personal'truths'. I know too many people in this life who don't seek the truth and will of the Lord - but rather - the truth of religious teachings in regards to their own existence. The truth is only what what they imagine is best for them. The philosophies they embrace are merely a melting pot of established religious teachings and used to justify any lifestyle they choose to live.
A M Werner, amen, brother. I've seen someone of this false doctrine state that Peter was called of God, and then referenced a verse "Simon called Peter" as biblical proof of this. Now, any logical person can say my name is Adelia and I am called Dee Dee as a nickname. But that doesn't mean Adelia or Dee Dee is "called of God". I just shake my head...If L. Ray Smith uses this style of interpretation and teaching, this group is really waaaaay off the mark, worse than I ever imagined.
I've seen so many people of all walks of life and faiths that simply do not go to the original languages and accept the definitions as truth, just because it goes against their habitual or personal belief system. Why not accept the truth as it is written? I will never get it. The Word is so full of love, justice, prophecy, and most importantly, SALVATION.
Thank you for your insightful comment. God bless you!!
I agree, it has been very nice sharing this time around.
JL, Not everyone will be able to call Him The Lord there God.
K.J.V. Zec 13:8.9 8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
For who has resisted God's Will? Did Pharaoh also have free will or did he do God's will? I don't think he was a beviever. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Pharaoh enslaved the Jews and did not become one. Just as God created Satan to accomplish His will, and Satan and his angels are predestined for the Lake of Fire, they are still subject to God's authority; so it was with Pharaoh. If you do a study of God's Word, you will also note that kings (i.e. the king of Tyre and the king of Babylon) were fallen angels (cherabim). Pharaoh could also have been. If you want more proof of this, read my hub on Judah's Daughter called, "Is Lucifer the Devil?"
Though God DESIRES all men to be saved, His Word states clearly that not all will be. There will be a separation of wheat and tares (Mat 13:40), the same as sheep and goats (Mat 25:33). Jesus said in John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." Do you see "sheep and goats" here?
In Matthew 25:33, Jesus said, "He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left." What's the significance of right and left?
He says in the same chapter, verse 34, "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Then, in verse 41 He says, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;".
Just answer the question???? The first one if you can! there is no eternal loke in strong's! So your going to call God a liar? No! Then why did you state above God's desires won't be done! When scripture says His very will and desires will be done. With love, Thaddeus Cole
What is an eternal loke? Is loke a word? What question? About Pharaoh? I answered that for you. Obviously, God is allowing your eyes to be blinded to the truth. Now, THAT is evident.
that word should be lake I'm sorry! No you did not answer anythng Carrie. You said that pharaoh enslaved the jewish people and did not become one. Where did that come from? What does it have to do with doing God's will? The question was did pharoah do what God wanted him to do or did he use free will? Then you sad the kng of tyre and the king of babylon were fallen angels? That one made me laugh out loud! Where do you come up wth this unscriptual stuff carrie! You say that I'm blind and that is evident. Just answer THE QUESTION Carrie! Don't just say something that has nothing to do with what we are talking about and then say you answered my question! What is evident is that you will not answer a direct question, obviously! If you will answer those 2 questions above, dd pharoah do his will or God's? Did he have a choose over whether or not his heart was hardened by God? God's word says His will and desire will be done right? If not please let me know where in scripture it says that. With love, Thaddeus Cole. P.S. making fun of someone because they typed the worng word instead of answering their question says alot about that person, but I forgive you.
Well, Thad, you really need to READ many of my hubs on Judah's Daughter thoroughly. I will have to answer you here with a hub comment:
LAKE OF FIRE/HELL
The Bible literally states "lake of fire" (Rev 19:20; 20:10, 14-15; 21:8) so we don't need a Strong's to answer that one for you. You can look up the word geenna (Greek 1067) if you so choose and all the passages Jesus taught about it: Mt 5:22 & 5:29, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15 and 23:33; M'r 9:43, 9:45 and 9:47; Lu 12:5. You can also look up Jas 3:6.
If you want to know the other meanings of Hell and their scripture passages:
Hades (Greek 86): Mt 11:23 & 16:18; Lu 10:15 & 16:23; Ac 2:27 & 2:31; Re 1:18, 6:8, 20:13 and 20:14.
Tartaroo (Greek 5020): 2 Pe 2:4.
SATAN HAS CHILDREN!
The Bible is full of Jesus' own words about good seed (wheat/sheep) and bad seed (tares/goats): God's children and the devil's children:
Satan uses people to do his will, and likewise, those who do the will of God are God’s children. Mat 13:37-39 tells us we are either children of God or children of the devil: Jesus said, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the Enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels.”
Pharaoh was a child of the devil (check out Ezekiel 31:18), just like Judas (who Jesus called a devil in John 6:70). God still has supreme authority over the will of Satan and his angels, especially when it comes to protecting His own children. This is why Israel was spared and so was Job. God doesn't protect Satan's children. In fact, look up how God gives one over to a "reprobate mind" (Rom 1:28; Heb 6:8) and "powerful delusions" (2 Thes 2:11) because of their sin and hardened hearts. See, it's God who sends Satan and his children to hell...because they refuse to do God's will. They are sold out to other gods and their own sin, thus doing Satan's will.
Jesus again confirms Satan has children when He rebuked the Jewish leaders in John 8:44 by saying, “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.”
Jesus called BELIEVERS His “friends”, yet we are told that anyone who is a “friend of the world” is hostile towards God! (Jas 4:4) Jesus said, “If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.” (John 15:19)
Jesus then told us, “Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and cast insults at you, and spurn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.” (Mat 5:12; Luke 6:23)
FALLEN ANGELS ARE KINGS (examples):
As far as the king of Tyre, the Bible says he was a cherub in the Garden of Eden ~ read it for yourself (Ezek 28:13). The king of Babylon was "fallen from heaven", which indicates he also was a fallen angel...that would be Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12. Pharaoh was also cursed (Ezek 31:18). Angels do not die. Therefore, Lucifer was not merely buried in a grave. Isaiah was a PROPHET. You know the Antichrist is said to come up out of the Abyss (the deepest "abyss" of Sheol/Hades is Tartaroo) and go to destruction (Rev 17:8). I mean, what does Rev 9:2 say? "When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss." Abyss is also translated "bottomless pit".
How could any of these kings who ruled after the flood have been in existence prior to the flood? Obviously, they did. Look up the word angel in Strong's and you will see they can be kings, pastors, priests or teachers! And, indeed, angels are recorded in the Bible as appearing in human form...male.
You ask, and I will answer what the Lord lays on my heart. If you are looking for me to contradict the Word of God, you are mistaken. I contradict your beliefs because they are obviously based on your own preferred interpretation. Just read those passages for yourself.
I'm doing my best to explain, but if you don't understand I cannot MAKE you understand. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. Obviously, I care and that's why I'm taking the time. If you are not open-minded, please understand that I am not open to universalist teaching whatsoever. I'm sorry we don't agree ~ I just want you and others not to waste one more day outside of the salvation of Christ Jesus! The harvest is ripe and the workers are few! Time is running out!
Wehzo says:
6 months ago
Very good hub Carrie. Sometimes it gets lonely on the front line, but that does not mean you are alone. This 'false doctrine' that you speak of is dangerous to those who are straddling the fence, and to some who have not learned to eat 'solid food' yet. I too, at times, find myself wearing the mantel of an apologist. But, be of good cheer Carrie, you have been, and are yet being, prepared and equipped for such a work. I am honored to have met you, and will continue praying for your strength in the Lord.
God Bless You