Renegade University Spammers - It's Time to Put Up or Shut Up.
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A Challenge to Renegade University Affiliates
UPDATE: 6th July, 2009.
This hub was published a year ago in approx, June 2008. In early May 2009, some sites were submitted by R.U. students which are not primarily for the promotion of R.U. material, so I suppose that my challenge has now been met.
There is discussion about this down around comment #140 on this hub. I've provided the opportunity for RU students to provide more links, but it would appear that they are reluctant to do this if they can't also submit hundreds of words of promotion about RU at the same time.
So if any links to hubs or sites are submitted as per my guidelines in this hub, they will be approved. You can follow the links and decide whether the sites referenced are for the purposes of promoting Klingler's products - or the businesses of his students.
NOTE: I. I've allowed Mike and his students of freedom in posting their promotional material in the past, but because they recently posted about 6,000 words of comments that were largely promotional in nature, I have decided that no more of it will appear here. As I am unable to edit comments to remove this promotional material, any comments which contain it will be deleted.
The offer stands for them to post links to hubs and sites as per the guidelines I have stated. If they choose to do so, anyone reading this hub can make up their own minds about who is right - Mike or I.
Anyway, it's good to see that the deluge of spammy RU hubs that I originally wrote about is no longer a problem. That method of promotion appears to have ceased, and for that I am grateful to Mike Klingler if he has altered his training to prevent it.
And now on to the original hub which was posted in approx. June 2008 - over 12 months ago.
==== Eric G.===
You've probably noticed that the affiliates of a marketing program called Renegade University are very active on Hubpages.
1,170 Hubs About Renegade University
Google tells me that there are 1,170 hubs promoting this "University"
After looking at these, I can only conclude that part of the "University Course" is to use Hub Pages to promote the course to desperate money makers. (And of course to get backlinks to You Tube clips which - surprise, surprise, also promote Renegade University
Now, I haven't looked at all 1,170 hubs. But those I have looked at seem remarkably similar. Almost written to a formula, or some sort of "cookie cutter" style.
Another common characteristic is many promoters with a very small number of hubs. All containing similar text promoting Renegade University.
Some affiliates have written hubs which initially appear to be on a variety of interesting topics - which then quickly turns into a pitch for - surprise surprise - products associated with Renegade University.
The really clever ones pepper their hubs with links to a lot of different sites - which all promote R.U. (So it seems that they are aware of Hub Pages max. 2 links to a domain)
What did not see in any of the hubs was an indication that the authors earned any income from what they had learned from Renegade U - apart from learning how to promote this course and its associated products to other poor buggers wanting to make money on the internet.
So - Have I bought it?
No. You don't need to actually bite into a shit sandwich to make a pretty good guess at its contents.
The Challenge - (If Anyone Wants To Accept It )
So - Here's a challenge for all you Renegade University "Students".
Show me the error of my ways. Call me out on what I've written here.
Have you used the knowledge you've learned from this "University" to do anything besides trying to flog the program to other people?
If so, write a hub to tell me (and other hubbers) about what you've done, and how RU has trained you used Web 2.0 to build your massive mailing list to whom you sell your own wonderfully profitable products. Put a link to it in this thread.
If you CAN'T meet my challenge
Then I'll assume that you and all the other RU students are only using HubPages to promote Renegade University and therefore are breaking hub pages rules. You're very lucky that Hub Pages management have not removed your hub.
Because Hub Pages policy clearly states that :
Our objective with HubPages is to support authors that have the desire and intent to develop a readership on the HubPages site, and to contribute in a positive way to the HubPages community. If your intended use runs counter to this objective -- for instance, if you're sole purpose is to get back links for other sites or to promote or sell dubious products through your hubs -- then please stop using HubPages
And you may also want to check out the conditions for banning hubs that are substandard, overpromotional, and duplicate content.
You'll find that your Renegade University hubs don't meet them.
Are You Getting Sick of the Blatant, Serial Marketers and Spammers on HP?
If you're one of the hubbers who isn't selling RU, maybe you'd like to leave a comment about what you think of this and the many other blatant marketing promotions that are trying to get around the Hub Pages rules.
Does it make you so mad that you can't take any more?
- then SHOUT OUT AND LET EVERYONE KNOW.
Addition to the Original Hiub:
I'd like to clarify that my use of the term "spammer" does not include hubbers who take part in the Hub Pages community, create properly titled hubs, and write about experiences, and include their RU affiliate link.
A Hub like this from "Renegade Coach" is certainly within the spirit and rules of Hub Pages.(But this comment is not intended to be an endorsement of RU, internetwork marketing, internet marketing, MLM, or whatever term you choose to use for this practice of building lists for the purpose of selling RU products, or any other MLM products. )
This hub is directed to the many hubbers whose sole hub activity is to create lots of spammy hubs containing only sales pitches for RU consisting of boilerplate promotional material, and anywhere from 2 to about 20 affiliate links.
This hub has generated a lot of comments, controversy, and free analyses of my mental state.
[Edit 6th July 2008. I'm interested to note that in the 2 weeks that this hub has been in existence, and despite almost 90 comments, NOT ONE PERSON has been able to address my challenge, and provide a link to a hub or website where they are using what they learnt at RU to promote their own products, and not those associated with RU. In the midst of the smokescreen of red herrings, emotional pitches from RU acolytes, and general abuse towards me, I think that says it all.]
This hub has also caused some distress and confusion from new hubbers and those using RU to learn about social marketing, and building their own lists and their own businesses. However, I'm not entirely sure how much you'll actually learn about this, apart from the procedures involved in setting yourself up to become an affiliate to promote various products associated with RU)
Nevertheless, many RU affiliates are very satisfied with what they are learning - as you'll see if you read the comments defending RU with religious fervour.
If you are a network marketing student, or intend to be one, I recommend you download and read the free EBook called Merchants of Deception, by Eric Scheibeler.It documents the reality behind the facade of the giant AMWAY organisation.
It's available free from www.merchantsofdeception.com
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Comments
Thank you for your vigilance! By the way, some guy with a broken leg came to my door yesterday, and told me I had better join your fan club. you don't know him, do you?
@ rmr.
Ah, that'd be Wayne the leg breaker.
I had to send him out to do a bit of work on another hub :-)
I hope you gave him a double whisky, and somewhere to have a good lie down. And if you don't join my fan club, I'll send him around again - with Bill the Arm Breaker.
(Yes - you guessed it :-) )
Well done, will anyone accept the challenge?
I joined weeks ago, so I gave him a whiskey, and sent him on his way. He looked a little off balance, so I sent my own man to accompany him. That would be Freddie the eye-poker. His dog knows the way to the airport.
Eric! You're invited to my graduation ceremonies. I'll be graduating from U-of-spam July.....Just kidding. I loved the hub and the comments. (I'm a fan already so no need for the 'breaker team'. By the way did you read my new hub yet? It's called...kidding again. My fave '...But then again, you don't need to actually bite into a shit sandwich to make a pretty good guess at its contents.'
As always great entertaining and educational hub regards Zsuzsy
Eric, You had me cracking up! I know what you are saying. I seriously understand, but sh*t sandwich? :) I don't know anything about RU, so I can only imagine that once again, a flock of 'students' do what the teacher directs them to and then as I went through in MLM Goldmine, too many people try to shortcut and it's a shame. I am still a student of network marketing and as much as I'd like a million people to join my business today (no, actually I wouldn't), I feel that a certain respect and common decency should be shown for other people. But, I guess, then spammers would have nothing to do anymore, eh? I hope that one day marketers 'get' relationship building VS. high Google ranking. But, thank you for this hub. In some ways, it has shown me to be more careful with what I do on my own hub and make sure that I show that respect and deceny I'd like to receive. Have an awesome day!
Eric, you hit it bang on.
Many of these programs have to keep it as simple as possible which means that you end up with a lot of people all doing the same kind of marketing with the same kind of content.
And they wonder why they are not successful.
I love it. The thing is, you know none of those guys are even going to read this because they're not here for reading anything anyone has to say. It's the same with those water4gas guys. I put links to my anti-them stuff on all their crap and they don't even comment back or bag on me for messing with them. Nothing. They don't even read their own stuff. Bastards. Capitalism run amok, I tell you.
Anyway, good hub, I'm glad you pointed it out. Had no clue about these guys. Oh, and LoL @ shit sandwich.
I have decided to step up and accept your Challenge.
I am a 100% supporter of a guy called Eric the one with a broken leg.
Let's band together and send them packing with two broken legs.
@ Mr. Marmalade -
Probably not a good idea. There's not enough plaster of paris in Tasmania to set that many broken legs :-)
@ Bob Ewing.
This hub is #5 at present for a search on renegade university, so I'm expecting an absolute FLOOD of takers for my challenge.
Any moment now. Or at least very soon. Perhaps. Maybe.
Because, of course, the only people who ever type "renegade university" into Google are RU users who want to see whether they have managed to claw their way above the other 3,500 RU users who are also trying to be in the first page of Google for that term.
Ordinary human beings who are not yet involved with RU don't Google the term ...
Although, if I may humbly suggest a modification, if you optimised yourHub for "renegade university REVIEW" you might actually save a few benighted souls from parting with their hard-earned cash for the bloody thing. A small porportion of slightly more savvy internet users will Google for a review of something before trying to buy it.
You won't be able to save them all, but each one saved is 10 fewer spam hubs on the topic, so it's worth considering, IMHO.
Jenny
Well done. I hate clicking on hubs and finding that they are just sales pitches. I didn't know about the RU rubbish but I do now! Thanks.
Hi Eric great hub. but I avoid the water cars, renegade universities and the sales pitch by selecting who are my fans whom I follow nd read of course and I often choose to read stuff by people who make intelligent or witty comments. So far I have been lucky and have found good calibre hubs and hubbers. I also tend to avoid self promoters who seem to be punting links.
@ Jenny,
The point of this hub is not really for potential victims of RU to find, and I doubt that any of them will. (Apart froma few hubbers who are now a bit wiser if they encounter a sales pitch for R.U.)
Your idea of optimising for review would normally work, but if you google RU review or RU scam the first few pages are taken by affiliates of RU who are using youtube, viddler, ezinearticles, etc. etc. to promote RU.
So the creators of RU are really quite smart, in that they are selling their product to an army of affiliates, who they train to promote RU right across the web using techniques that can be quite clever.
They've created their own little army of spam bots, who have paid for the "privilege" of promoting RU
Anyway, the point of this hub is to eventually make a request to Maddie asking that all these RU hubs be removed on the grounds that they are breaching Hub Pages rules by being self promotional, duplicate content,and that the hubs are contrary to the stated purposes of hub pages.
Thanks everyone for reading this hub, and for your comments. Glad I'm not the only one who's had a gutful of these sort of tactics.
@sixtyorso:
Yes, becoming a fan of people who make witty comments on other peoples hubs is one of my favourite methods of discovering people whose fan clubs I join.
Although I suspect I'll lose a few fans myself as a result of this hub, as there are some RU members in my fan club. shame they haven't taken up my challenge :-)
Eric, I'm fairly new here, but I have noted a ton of spam. The ones that really get me are the ones that tell you how rich you can get just by clicking their magic link. They must think we all graduated from ol renegade U
I'm fairly new to this part of Hubpages, so I'm not aware of the influx of renegade university members. I am a member of RU, but I don't have a hub page on it.
I will say the core of the program is to teach people how to market, in that it teaches where to put up sites- in which this site is one of them.
The creator of RU teach people to put up good content sites, not advertising sites that Don't offer value. The problem is NOT with RU, but with people who don't understand how to write good copy, how to write good content, how to add value in what they write.
By the way copywriting training is not part of the course. Perhaps it should be??
In terms of using RU, to make money...
It's great for learning step by step about how and where to put up sites, but as a money-maker it really falls flat, unless you're selling a lot of memberships.
Like with any hubpage, the content has to stand on it's own and not be reliant on a "click here for more info" to finish saying what the hubpage should've said.
Just my two cents.
Corrisa;-)
Thanks Corissa for your comments, which confirm my thoughts about RU.
It really pisses me off how all the rabid internet marketers are so arrogant to assume that they have carte blanche to game anything on the internet that has the slightest possibility of generating a sale for them. (ie any site that has traffic of any sort.)
Take craigslist for example. This site is for people to run classified advertisements in their local area.
However, it has just become a battleground, with Craigslist having to use an ever increasing series of defences to try and keep out the hard core marketers.
So what do the marketers do? Accept that they are not wanted there?
Not on your life.
They increase their efforts, and lots of people are making lots of money selling EBooks that tell people the "secrets" of getting around the defences of Craigslist.
Ain't human nature wonderful!
Just like all the other MLMs, money making opportunities, etc. The only way to make any money is to sell the "program" to other poor suckers.
"The only way to make any money is to sell the "program" to other poor suckers. " - 100% True Statement.
Great aExpose Eric,
BTW I drove from Hobart to Launceston back in the 50's Loved the country And I learned that you are not Aussies.
See my hub on MLM fiction
Keep up the good work
I created Renegade University so I thought I'd weigh in on the subject -- not that the dialogue needs any more spicing up... after your mouth-watering sandwich remark!
Rather than taking any of this too personally I'll see what I can do to clear some things up.
You made valid points but I'm certain you would have framed it all a lot differently if you had spent some time at the University to do some research first--for example, you would have known it's free. You would have also found it interesting that the emphasis is on teaching people to provide value.
But there's only so much time in the day... you can't research everything. From what you did see I can understand why you wrote this Hub the way you did.
So let's look at some of the valid issues here. One of the issues is that there are a lot of people popping up at Hubs talking about Renegade University -- they appear to be new to Hub Pages
Some of them are linking to their blog or 'somewhere' else that also discusses Renegade University. It appears that their only intention is to promote something that makes them money--not to build an audience at Hub Pages by providing value as the main theme.
So let's address all this.
It's important to emphasize that Renegade University is free.
There are products that can be purchased inside the University, but there's a tremendous amount of free training that people can spend months on for absolutely no cost.
There's so much free training that it violates what information marketers would teach as an effective conversion strategy. Renegade University’s primary purpose isn't about selling something... it's about giving something.
So if Renegade University is free, why are so many new Hubbers talking about it in their Hubs? What's in it for them?
Answer:
Most of these people are in the early stages of learning how to provide value in order to build an audience, and they are using the University to provide this value because they're still learning how to provide value on their own.
The emphasis of our training, in both the free University, as well as in the paid courses, is to lead with value... to give before you ask to receive.
Hub pages is one of many places we share they can go to begin doing this... to build an audience.
It makes sense that it will take 'some' of them time to learn this important fundamental lesson (giving value first).
Let's look at where most of these people have gotten their 'past training' from...
Not all, but many of our students are from the network marketing MLM world--each representing different companies and products. We're teaching them to attract people to them by building an audience... and to do that by giving value first.
What we are teaching is very contrary to what the old-school MLM world has taught them... people have been told that everyone is a prospect for their business, and to approach friends, family, neighbors and strangers... as well as to cold-call leads whether they're interested or not (that's spamming in the real world).
It's not a surprise that "some" (emphasizing 'some,' not all) of them will take that 'spamming' perception online--even if we stress not to in every lesson.
The students who stay with us 'Get It' pretty quickly. Those who graduate end up figuring out the difference between 'attracting people' like you're doing with this Hub, versus repelling people by becoming a spammer. But what is valuable content, exactly? What is valuable to some will not be valuable to others--so it mostly has to do with your intention, which becomes evident by how you 'frame' your information. Are you creating the content (the Hub) for me the reader, or for you? Beyond that, we define "valuable content" as anything your 'target audience' is interested in reading about or discussing... subjects, topics, books, classes, people, etc.
The Hub here, entitled, "Renegade University Spammers -- It's Time to Put Up or Shut Up" would be an example of the type of value we would teach students to try to create for themselves--although this uses "negative marketing tactics" to 'attract' a discussion and audience... it is still value because there is an audience of people here interested in the topic.
There would be nothing inherently wrong if there as a link to a blog or a lead capture page at this Hub -- in fact, it would be smart the marketing process was that well developed. It would not be a violation of Hub policies to do so.
Still, that's only the case when your main emphasis is to share your opinion and insight on a topic that an audience of people may be interested in. So what is valuable content? I had written this in an article, which I shared with many of our students.
This is an excerpt and I see now how many of them may be getting stuck on understanding value vs. spam... In the article it stated...
"So what can you offer? What can you contribute? The list of what you can offer is as infinite as the stars in the galaxy... and that is no exaggeration.
I like to teach that people simply start from where they're at in their profession. What do you like or enjoy about your business?
What fascinates you the most? Focus on those topics. Research them. Join groups that discuss them. Network with people on the web who share news or posts about those same topics. Genuinely contribute and learn from others.
As you network and begin to learn new things, share your opinion on what you've learned, on people who are well known in your area of expertise. Build up content on the Internet that reflects your reviews on books, other sites, people and their ideas..."
I think that by writing up something about Renegade University they felt they were adhering to this advice... they were trying to give input about something that they were familiar with... I would not be surprised if some of them are overly promotional.
Some of them have work to do I would agree. But not everyone at the University is making that mistake. Some have graduated...
There are plenty of good value-based Hub examples... there are many Hubs that have nothing to do with the University--about all kinds of interests and topics. They get it.
I wanted to tackle the other point made--where you challenged University students to share how they have benefited from the University itself.
The University isn't a get rich quick program--it's a training system.
There are plenty of examples of people who have learned how to successfully set up good value-based content for the first time, who have started growing their own list and even made money through affiliate marketing from what they've learned... many have used it to generate leads for their own business, by leading with value. Maybe some of them will take the time to share what they've learned in this Hub.
I may share this Hub with the University community as another means to train them on the consequences of being a selfish marketer (as we call it in our training).
I agree that a large portion of newbies have a lot to learn.
I know that some people out there don't want to learn--they don't care--they want to spam. But that's just not the case with the University students.
If you offer to help University students learn how to do this correctly they will be eager to learn. I think that this is more of a true test of their intention and character than their first shot at making a Hub.
Create Hubs to help them learn how to do it right--they'll come. They'll contribute. You'll like them.
Thank you for your comments. Some of the points you make are correct, but I'd like to address some others with you.
Unfortunately I can't do that immediately. It's late Sunday night here and I'm just about to go to sleep, and the next 2 days are packed pretty solid.
Till my next post then,
Regards, Eric G.
I have been involved with Renegade University for 3 months now, about the same amount of time that I have been involved with Hub Pages. I will give you my impressions of each. I have been impressed, as a whole with the quality of information and writers involved with Hub Pages. The degree of passion inherent within much of the content is quite evident. Many of the writers are writing because they love it, and it is difficult for them to accept writing for promotional purposes. Of course, these writers understand that because Hub Pages is a content sharing website, individual writers have individual agendas. People within Renegade University have their own agendas, backgrounds, writing abilities, overall skill-seta etc. I can only speak to my own perception of what the program is all about, and what I believe the program attempts to accomplish. The program is all about providing value, and Mike Klingler is a role model for that core belief. At the heart of all his trainings, he communicates values of sharing and communication. He NEVER brings up, promotes, suggests ANY aspect of any particular business, mlm or otherwise. He is not about that. Does Renegade University train people to market on the Internet? Absoulutely. Do individuals fail to market within the spirit of attraction marketing? It is unavoidable. Many of us are still learning, some of us are selfish. The selfish people were selfish before they ever got involved with Renegade University, and they probably always will be. Most of us are enthusiastic about learning what Mike is teaching, and would like nothing more than to be friends with the wonderful Hub Pages community. Be patient, I truly believe you will see more value from our offerings in the future.
Ive been in business and have been an entrepreneur pretty much all my life, and agree that people should never be pressured into spending their hard earned money on anything that they don't agree with weather its spamming on the Internet or advertising offline, when I come across Renegade University a couple of months ago and was pleasantly surprised at the teachings of attraction marketing this new model of attracting people to you, not the other way around Mike Klingler makes it perfectly clear that this is not about promoting Renegade University these teachings can be used for any business weather you're selling flowers,cars,shoes what ever, its all about attracting people to you and its up to you to make the finial decision on weather to purchase the product or join the program their will always be selfish and dishonest people out there who will always have their best interests in mind online and offline,and yes we are all learning and getting better at this including myself,I'm glad to be a part of the hub community and have met many interesting people from all walks of life and will continue to contribute to this content sharing site, that's what freedom of speech is all about, last time I checked we still live in Capitalistic ,Democratic society, bottom line is if you don't like what someone is selling you don't have to buy it.
Hi, I'm Didi. I just wanted to step up to the challenge and say that I've definitely made money and built my own prospects list from what I learned at the University. But I haven't started a Hub yet. I used other ways.
Since starting last December I've created a little over 900 leads total. And these gave me their phone number not just their email address. I never call them but they're great contacts. And they all know my name and requested to receive information from me. I learned how to do all this from the University. I used to buy my leads and now I actually make money getting them myself.
I've made about ten thousand dollars since then but most of that is from other affiliate products that I learned how to market through the University, not from the University itself. The point is I've learned how to market myself and attract people to me. The money I made so far is just the beginning.
I can take what I've learned to make money in numerous ways that have nothing to do with the University. So far I've taken what I learned at the University to build my own blog, use Squidoo, and use video (and some other places). I knew of these things before but didn't know how to make them work for me until the University started.
I used to have a hard time knowing what to say or contribute so I can understand why some new people make a mistake when they first make some content out there like at Hub Pages.
I'm working on my first Hub now and it will not be about the University although I may mention it. Not because I am pushing it but because it's been a big part of my life lately. It helped me a lot.
Partners in Progress,
DiDi Alcheva
lol
Eric - Ask and ye shall receive. I wonder of all 1,100 hubbers will turn up and tell you what a fantastic program this is?
I am one who is guilty of spamming as you call it. Not because I am a spammer per sae, but because I am enthused about what I am learning.
No where else can any one find a training program as straight forward, thoughtful and truthful as Renegade University.
Some might call me an old man and I am, I am 76 years old. I owned an offline business for nearly fifty years. A very successful one I might add. I am very familiar with offline marketing. When I accepted the Renegade University FREE offer of training, how to do marketing on the Internet I excepted the challenge. But first I did a little research first. Apparently you did none, so you really don't know what you are talking about
I would guess you are a writer and a good one at that. I would also say that you are an arrogant Bastard who doesn't know what he is talking about.
Truly yours
Grant Logan
There are many good points made here. On both sides of this argument. I think the biggest lesson to be made is the fact that those Renegade University students who are actively promoting "Renegade University" on hubpages, on squidoo, and everywhere else on the Internet are pissing in everyone's Cheerios.
They don't yet understand the concept of branding themselves as an expert and then using their expertise to gently guide people toward their business.
Personally I can't stand these hubs and lenses that all say the same thing and provide no real value to their readers. It reeks too much of the same ol' hype bullsh*t that many of us who've been on the Internet for a long time have already smelled. That being said, I also am a member of R.U. and have found it to be high quality training for people who have no clue how to "attract" people to their business via the web. The folks doing this are making it tough for everyone, themselves included.
That being said, I have to defer to the others comments made here: many people are selfish, many people are new, many people don't understand the concept of "value". I appreciate your opinion here. ~Jesse
First my confession - I am a R.U. student. I have done my best to follow all rules of all sites I join. All my content has been directed to readers who are interested in Internet Marketing - home business. If you have no interest in what I write about I would presume you would not click on it to read, just as you would not pick up a book to read it if you had no interest in its content. I do have other interest also - so if I happen to see a hub that looks interesting I will visit it. Sometime I will make a comment on it. If it turns out that it was really not that interesting to me - I just leave and go on to the next one that catches my eye. From your hub I can see that maybe some of us were maybe over enthusiaic & maybe a few were really intentionally spamming. However as hard as you may find it to believe there are many people who really are interested in what we have written. What you consider art I may consider junk. As for making money - you probably went to college to learn your trade or profession - college was a learning experience - not a money making experience - R.U. is the same for us. I have not made a dime on R.U. and that is not my purpose for being in R.U. I hope to make money from my business, that is what R.U. is teaching us to do. We don't all get A's to start with - a few may even get some F's at first. And just like in real life - as you are driving down the road, if you see a billboard advertising some product or movie - you don't have to read it - just drive on by.
I was a little hesitant about adding to this long list of comments. Is there anything to say on either side that hasn't already been said? But then I thought my 2 cents are just as good as any, so here goes.
I am also a RU student. Although I hope my articles would not be considered spam, I am afraid that you may consider them as such. The problem lies in the definition. After all, my novel may be your spam.
The first thing we were told was to get over our fear of writing and just do it. We were told to write about what we know, what we feel, what we think, and what we are excited about. This is what any teacher in any writing class would tell their students.
A good writer is only good if they follow that rule. Yes we were also told to gear our writing toward our target audience. Again, what every good writer knows.
And therein lies the rub...what I am excited about is my new found knowledge. Not all of which comes form RU, but a good deal of it. So I write about my life, what I found worked for me and what didn't. Can I help it if that means that I bring the RU into the Hub? Should I be banned for writing about my experiences?
I don't intentionally write my articles with selling anything in particular (except myself of course) in mind. But I do have a link to RU in some Hubs. I have a link to other sites as well. Sites that have helped me thus far and that I hope will continue to help me. I also have a link to my blog, is that over promoting myself?
I agree that there is a fine line between the issues, but how is my right to write about my interest infringing on your right to not read what I write?
As I tell my kids when they are making a mountain out of a mole hill ... GET OVER IT!! It just is not that important! Walk away.
So to anyone out there upset at the RU students learning how to write and getting a little carried away by their enthusiam...get a life.
Thanks for all the comments.
I hope to have time later today to make a proper response.
I also am a member of RU and I have participated in any number of available internet marketing tutorial programs available by reputable experts and I find RU to be at a level equal to some and far better than most.
One course I took (not RU) was teaching us how to create a blog. Everyone used the same platform and this particular platform literally shut down because of the attention put to it.
My point is that most of us are relative newbies to using the internet, all the rules, and how to's.We all weren't born with a mouse in our hands.
I've made mistakes and am still making them. Sometimes it takes time for "the penny to drop". But, I keep working at it because it's important to me and a challenge for my internet future.
Mike and the RU are teaching us great things to use in whatever business we are involved in but we have much learning to do and no, we don't get it right all the time. Some of us are selfish and some us are unintentionally selfish.We're struggling to learn and conquer our fears of putting ourselves "out there" in cyberspace.
What I think is sad is the low tolerance of people who aren't at "your level" of hub creation or writing.It's a sad state of affairs when you assume the worst in people and bad intentions.
If you don't want to read what we write...don't. Just like if you don't like what's on TV, turn it off or change the channel.
If you want to help...teach. Maybe send a private email to one who offends you and offer some valuable advice..constructively. After all, we don't go out and deliberately try to offend....as some do.
The RU is open to people from every level, newbie to the expert. Some of us are slower to learn than others. This is a go at your own pace program. The intention in this course comes from the heart and in good spirit and good will.
It's unfortunate that we aren't as perfect as you'd like us to be. Perhaps learning some tolerance and acceptance would be a step in the right direction.
All humanity is here... Eric, you've attracted a flood of comments that should give you (or anyone else, since it's all in the public domain) enough material to write hubs, and even e-books, on several subjects.
For a start, we have just about a big enough sample of RU students to show that , as a group, they are no different from those on all the other marketing and copywriting courses out there - even when they have learned the 'attitude' part of the game, most of them will need to do a lot of work developing their writing skills - first basic spelling and grammar, then the subtleties of copywriting. Some will never make it. Others will. Almost all will be better off for having made the effort.
Message to RU students (and people participating in all the other training schemes out there):
Don't pay anyone anything until you have demonstrated to yourself that you have understood and made good use of the free stuff. Even the companies who sell very expensive one-on-one coaching are giving away excellent free guidance and tools these days. If you can't get the hang of the free stuff, don't kid yourself that it will be easier if you shell out thousands of dollars. There are no magic bullets. You have to work.
Eric, you have made your point and it is well taken. There is no need for you to wake up tomorrow to post again. Now it is time for others to voice their thoughts, which I have just read and will hope that you do as well.
First, I looked at the Hub topics that you wrote about in the past to see what you are good at writing about. I found that you seem to be a person that looks for the negative in things instead of the positive. That's OK, for there are many people who will read this kind of stuff all the time. It makes some people feel better when their life is not going so well to see others suffering. You know the saying; misery likes company.
I have been very sucessfull in the Network Marketing industry for 26 years, much longer than you have been writing Hub pages. Over these years I have always taught people to look for the positive in a person and what they are good at doing instead of the negative. In this case, you are good at putting all people down when a few mess up.
Second, I would suggest you learn more about your subject first, and then look for how to help people learn how to do it right instead of putting others down. Then, maybe you can learn how to earn a living helping people instead, like I do, like Mike does at RU, and many others who really do enjoy helping people.
I can understand you not liking spam, none of us do. But you also have to understand that when people find something good like RU, they tend to want to share it with everyone out of pure excitement, not always because they can earn a dime, most don't.
I have been with RU for 4 months now and have learned a lot as well as earned from it for referring others and from developing some of them into leaders. Those I referred have thanked me for helping them turn their businesses around due to what they are learning about on-line marketing and attraction marketing.
You wonder why there are 1,170 hubs on Google about RU? Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, it might be because it is a great university and growing very fast?
Look at You Tube. They grew that big because it caught on with a lot of people. Did they put this site up just to be nice or to earn a profit? What about Face Book, My Space, Hot mail, or any other business on the Web. They are all on the Web to earn a profit and they will do that because they offer value to those who want to be heard, just like Hub pages.
When building my business before the Web was available, there were some people who would put down MLM because they tried it and failed or knew of others who failed. Instead of looking at why they failed, they instead pointed fingers at others who were having success and talked it down saying they were ripping off people, they were just lucky, they knew the right people, and so forth. Much like you are doing here. Some of those same people are now in the network marketing business.
Last, I would suggest you re-read Hub page policy:
Here is the sign up page:
HubPages allows you to create a Web article on anything you like. Here's how it works: Sign up -- Absolutely free and takes just seconds Create a Hub (your own Web article) quickly and easily Make money when visitors to your Hubs click on ads So there is nothing wrong with making money. Our objective with HubPages is to support authors that have the desire and intent to develop a readership on the HubPages site, and to contribute in a positive way to the HubPages community.They are doing this, but some have more to learn in order to do it better, just like anyone new to Hub pages. I wonder what your first Hub was like. If they are spamming people, they will be removed. If your intended use runs counter to this objective -- for instance, if you're sole purpose is to get back links for other sites or to promote or sell dubious products through your hubs -- then please stop using HubPagesMost RU students are not doing this because RU is for real and is helping a lot of people. The word "dubious" means giving rise to uncertainty, of doubtful promise or outcome <a dubious plan>, questionable or suspect as to true nature or quality <the practice is of dubious legality>. Check out RU if you want to learn something new about marketing but you will need to come with an open mind, which I am not sure you are there yet.
@ Chabrenas.
You give very good advice.
@ everyone else: responses coming soon.
I have considered for some time whether or not it was wise to comment on this Hub. I mean, why contribute to increasing your Hub and Google scores! But, I finallly decided to go with the "any publicity is good publicity" perspective! And I want to thank you for that. All of us in Renegade University appreciate the marketing!
Yes, I am another one of those "Renegade spammers!" Even before this hub was posted, I had been considering whether or not the amount of links to Renegade my peers and I have used is gaining any traction for anyone. There are people who are gaining prospects and signing people up to the Renegde and to their main businesses as well. (In fact, I have had success) People who would never think to just google Renegade are finding the information on Hubpages and signing up. The rate at which the Renegade is growing is a testimonial to the value the training provides.
But ihas been a learning process. Many of us are learnng how to use tools we had never heard of just a few short months ago. The good news is that as we learn what does and does not work, we will be passing that back to Mike, and I know he will incorporate that into future training classes. So perhaps the "spamming" in the future will be less pervasive.
I have recently begun to believe that if someone finds my hubs of value, they will go to my profile and follow the link back to my blog and then back to the Renegade. And the truth is, if they are motivated enough to do that little bit of independent research, they are motivated enough to benefit from the Renegade. But the whole point of marketing is to distinguish ones self from the crowd, therefore, extoling the values of the Renegade may not be the best topic to publish a Hub on today. So, I have adopted a new personal policy that I will minimize my links to the Renegade on Hubpages. I hope I wasn't offending anyone with my Hub links in the past. I felt I was fairly judicious in my linkage. But once again, if someone is already angry, any perception of insult is not well tolerated.
As others have posted, I always assumed anyone reading my hubs had similar interests and would not be offended. I mean, why would anyone waste their time reading what is not of interest to them? Just click "next!" Clearly, that may not have been the case.
I look forward to readingyour response to all the feedback you've received! Have a great Tuesday.
Having been in the network marketing industry for over 7 years, I have a very low tolerance for "hype" and can appreciate concern for overly promotional hubpages. However, I find that educating people is far more effective, professional and of benefit to the internet community, than attacking people and judges them all as a group instead of as individuals.
Also, from Chabrenas comment, it would appear that only people involved in marketing training need to work on their writing skills. Don't you think there are a lot of people new to Hubpages that have a learning curve before they will be creating high quality Hubpages? Again, why lump and judge people as a group?
As many have said, Renegade University provides free training to help people learn how to utilize the internet to attract people to them. From what I have seen the intention of most people is not to "spam" but to learn how to provide value to others. Yes, there is a learning curve in that, but I think it would be far more productive to give some tips and help to new people rather than shoot them down. I think Maddie Ruud's hubpage is a great example of this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Substandard
I was already utilizing the internet strategies taught in Renegade University when a downline leader of mine told me that the resources in Renegade University were helping his new people. I am always interested in taking a look at something that is helping people, so I tapped into Renegade University myself to take a look. I must say I have been very impressed with the quality of free training. Mike does an excellent job of taking a novice step-by-step through the process of learning the various aspects of internet marketing. His training warns people not to "spam" but provide value and attract people who have an interest in what you have to offer. Do all of the students understand this immediately? Well, probably not, but he has certainly shortened their learning curve and helping them avoid the "old school" marketing mistakes of considering everyone your prospect and verbally "dumping" on them.
My testimonial of the Renegade Marketing system appears on Ann Sieg's Renegade Marketer page. I submitted income documents to validate my testimonial. So yes, the strategies taught in Renegade University have worked - not only for me, but for many of my associates who have put the time and effort into implementing them. Renegade is not a "get rich scheme". It simply is teaching good, value-first, marketing to connect the marketer and consumer together - providing a win-win for everyone.
I am a real estate broker/investor and a investor friend told me about this RU Internet training. He investigated it for 3 weeks part time. After the thourough investigation he suggested that I join. I did.....let me tell you that this is the best thing I have ever done to advance my learning the Internet. Thanks Mike for starting your company, I consider you a blessing.
For the unhappy guy that started this mess I would suggest reading "How To Win Friends And Influence People" again...or if you have not read it...read it.
The course is great and it really opened my eyes up to the Internet..
I, like DiDi do not have a HUB page yet but the old giser that started this will only encourage me to get mine going.
thanks
Jim Wood
864-542-2725
jim@assetswork.com
I have a question for you sir. Who can speak intelligently about a subject and not know the details of that subject? If it's you, then congrats, you are the first one I have met. While I do appreciate every person's voice and the right to their own opinion, what suprised me is the level of ignorance in your article. And I don't mean to sound offensive, but this is fact. I know I am going to upset a lot of people that responded to your article in agreement, but after I read most of them, they are ignorant of the details as well.
You aren't seeing Renegade because it's a bunch of spammers "Floging"(as you interestingly put it) their usless product on you and others. You are seeing SUCCESS! Success because of the amazing VALUE of the Renegade content. You see people promoting it because of that value, and they want to share it with all. But again, you wouldn't know that because you are ignorant of the details.
Now, I understand hating spam, I hate it too. But before you make statements and judgments about subjects in which you are ignorant, may I suggest educating yourself on that particular topic. It is obvious that you didn't even bother to take the time to figure that out.
I use Renegade to educate myself and improve my primary business, and it has proved to be an invaluable tool for me in my online efforts. I respect your opinion because that is your right. And now I have exercised my right to tell you how I feel. I look forward to your response
Vr,
Jess Eggemeyer
I too have learned from RU, but have no Hub pages yet. I do have Squidoo and a Blog. Maybe soon I'll create a Hub.
My Hub sould have to be on something I know at least a little about, and which is stimulating enough to get my 'creative juices' flowing. So since I'm excited about the free training at RU, and the whole concept of Atttraction Marketing and how RU is helping me learn about it, I guess I'll at least mention RU!
I didn't join RU to make money but to learn - and I have made some money from affiliate programs Mike and Ann Sieg have shown. But making money from RU directly was never my main goal. I joined to learn.
Just as I'm selective in what I read, I guess you can be too! I liked the suggestion that if you have constructive criticism to make about someone's Hub, why not email them directly or at least leave a constructive comment!
And if my first attempts offend, I'm sorry for you. I'll try to learn and improve. We don't all start off as experts! But even in leaving a comment I'm growing!
Maybe the Tassie cold is getting to you... I know my outlook lifts significantly after the winter solstice is passed even though the days remain cold! It may be just psychological, but it feels real! Check out RU for yourself - you may be surprised at what is available to help newbies!
Eric I happen to be one of the technically terrified. And your hub terrified me! LOL. I was a frustrated network marketer who thought they had an online business only to finally have the penny drop and realize that ordering my products online and having them delivered to my door does not constitute an online business. I was looking for ways to take my business online when I found Ann Sieg. She offered so much value that I was drowning in information. Then along came Mike Klingler, gentle, patient Mike. I felt like he had thrown me a life preserver!
Reading your bio, it could have been you instead. Your bio is in complete contrast to your hub. If you were to overcome your negativity you would be a wonderful addition to Renegade University! We are thirsty for knowledge and we want to do it right. Rather than suffer from analysis paralysis Mike gets us into action. The learning curve I have been on these past few months makes my head hurt most of the time but I’m having a blast. Reading your article is enough to scare people into never writing another article! Undoing all of Mikes patient effort.
I’m not at the “don’t take it personally stage” yet so your article upset me. We are just learning to walk here. I was conscious about not promoting my company or my products as that would be perceived as spamming. By promoting the university I thought I was providing a service to people like me that were floundering. It’s something that I know about and something that I am very excited about. I have had several offline cold contacts get very excited about what I’m doing online and they are now checking out the free university before they decide if they want to upgrade to the Renegade Professional for $1 for one week. I was blown away by the amount of value provided in the university. Upgrading was a no brainer for me; I have paid far more on a monthly book/CD program which for the most part were inspirational and motivational CDs to get me to pick up the 100lb phone to call yet another friend or relative or worse go mall crawling. You should be thanking Mike for getting us off the street! LOL
Most of us passionately believe in the network marketing industry but were not happy with the old school methods of building our business. It is a breath of fresh air to actually have people come to us by clicking on a link in one of our articles. There is no pressure; they click of their own volition. They choose to read the article or not. I would suggest that if you are not open to new information that you should definitely not click.
They say the mind is like a parachute; it works really well when it’s open. If you are open, I would encourage you to get in contact with me or Mike or any one of us from Renegade University and come and see what we are about. You can email at Irene.paradigmshift@gmail.com rather than click on one of those dreaded Renegade University capture pages.
To reiterate I think you have a lot to offer us fledglings if your bio is the real you vs the negative hub guy.
OK,
This hub started out as an observation that I had noticed a LOT of hubs that promoted Renegade University (RU).
Hubs that had little content, and were basically similar sales pitches to promote RU with a view to earning a commission for introducing new members.
It appeared to me that the purpose of the training at RU was to set up an affiliate scheme to sell RU and associated products for commission.
But, I thought perhaps I was wrong, and therefore asked RU members to respond, and let us know if their training has resulted in anything other than making money from promotion of RU and associated products.
Well, a couple of people said that it did, and they have made money from promoting and selling their own products. Thanks for that, but you would appear to be in the vast minority.
Most of the other posts consisted of some free psychoanalysis for me, rants which made all sorts of assumptions, and comments about my intolerance for newcomers to the net, ignorance, and general negativity about all things internet.
( And I'm still trying to work out the significance of the comment from "Bob" who made the puzzling point that he had been a network marketer for 26 years - much longer than I had been writing hub pages.)
There also was a very polite, eloquent response from Mike, the creator of RU.
Mike wanted to emphasize the important fact that RU was free.
And that the free members are in the early stages of providing value in order to build an audience, and that they should focus on topics that they knew about, and write in their own style.
He said that he was training a whole lot of people in marketing techniques and providing value, that they could then use to build their own lists, and generate leads for their own business.
He said that some of them are selfish, don't want to learn and just want to spam. He thought that some probably get a bit overpromotional with their hubs, because they are so excited at what they are learning at RU.
I don't have a problem with any of that.
And after Grant Logan told me that I was an arrogant bastard who didn't know what I was talking about, I thought that I better find out a bit more about RU.
So I signed up to RU with a Hub Pages member.
OK, here's what I found.
1. Yes, RU is free. When you sign up for Renegade University at Mike Klingler's MarketingMerge.com, you come under the "wing" of a guide, who will help you with anything related to RU.
2. There are 3 Steps in RU. The first step is a brief introduction to RU, and strong encouragement to immediately purchase the Course Book, "Renegade Network Marketer" written by Ann Seig. This costs $67, half of which is paid as commission to your guide
In the words of Mike himself, before you start Step 2, "Its crucial that you read your course book". So is RU really "free"? You decide.
3. Step 2 is 8 stages for you to get started. These stages consist of:
- Setting up your affiliate links to recruit people into RU, so that you earn commission when they buy the Course Guide
-Joining a free traffic exchange scheme
- Getting a domain name and redirecting it to your RU sales site
- Learning How to track your Ad campaigns
- Managing your prospects and viewing commisions
The last part is a sales pitch for the next stage, where you pay $39.95 per month for access to more videos, and a higher level of training (And you'll earn an ongoing monthly income from those you sponsor into the higher level training.
OK, so there it is plain and simple.
The free access gets people into the marketing funnel, where they are upsold to an e-book and a monthly membership. Pretty standard marketing tactics.
There's an old saying - follow the money.
In his remarks above, Mike says:"So if Renegade University is free, why are so many hubbers talking about it in their hubs? What's in it for them?"
Mike, I would have thought that was obvious!
- They get $33.50 for each person they sign up who buys the course book, and commissions from people who sign up to the professional level if they themselves are at the higher level.
Do you thing that this possibly could be an incentive for many people - especially those recruits gained from your recommended traffic exchange site - to promote (spam) the hell out of RU wherever possible? I think so.
In Closing:
Unfortunately, I was unable to find any evidence of any training to prevent people from promoting RU until they had learned the "right" way to do it.
On the contrary, the big button saying "5 Cash Streams" tells them about the different ways they can earn commissions, and encourages them to start recruiting as quickly as possible.
Perhaps all of the instructions about providing value, not spamming, and learning how not to be a selfish marketer is at level 3. Or contained in the level 2 videos, not all of which I watched completely.(Most wouldn't load - even after 15 minutes)
Mike said that the emphasis of RU is to teach people to provide value. Well, I guess that's true - if value is defined as the promotion of RU.
I can understand all this sudden influx of people defending RU. After all, you've probably invested some money, and perhaps made some money from RU. And you don't like anyone stating the obvious.
So - if you do write hubs that contain valuable information, and not just a sales pitch for RU, they will be welcome here.
Put some of yourself into your hubs. Make them interesting. Become an active community member.
Don't just paste some your form email sales letters into a hub, change a few words, and post it on hub pages.
And Mike, now that you are aware of this issue, I'm sure you'll take steps to address it in your RU material. In step 1 would be nice.
From the comments in this hub, I can see that there are a lot of genuine people at RU. I hope that you recognise this Mike, and look after them. Treat them properly - and not just as an ongoing income stream that is to be maximised.
And after all that, my thoughts about the hubs that this discussion began with have not changed.
Regards,
Eric G.
@Jess:
Nowhere did I say that RU was useless.
This hub is about the manner in which affiliates of RU breach the rules of hub pages by promoting it in the way that they do.
A point that has been totally lost on most of those who have responded to this hub.
Including yourself.
@2Ken -
Contacting every RU affiliate whose hub is overpromotional is a task way beyond my capacity. Hopefully this discussion will result in Mike addressing this issue at level 1, where I suspect most of the problem lies.
@Renegade coach.
If you read the things I write about, you'll discover that there's no conflict. This hub has gone way beyond the simple request I made at the start.
I hope you learn a lot at RU, and that Mike looks after you well.
And don't be afraid to write hubs. The way you write about RU is honest, and comes from your own experience.
It's not just a cut and paste from some promotional material.
I would certainly not regard your hub in the same category as the ones that caused this hub to come into existence.
I have to admit when I read this Hub it gave me a stomach ache and headache. It appears that you created the thing you accused RU students of creating - the sandwich comment.
I too am relatively new to Internet marketing but not new to Network Marketing. I only have 2 Hubs posted here but that is because I have just begun. I have to say that your Hub has given me a bad impression. Yet, I know not to judge every one here because of one bad Hub from one guy. I prefer to think the best of people even if they are not perfect. Point out even one Hub from RU students that is in the spirit of hostility!
As for Mike Klingler, he deserves nothing less than praise and admiration! He is a true leader of which I must say we need more of in this country and in this world! You probably could take lessons from him! He has never been negative and gives beyond compare! We are being taught that work ethic at the RU. Does it happen overnight? Absolutely not! Practice makes perfect!
Because I consider myself a life long student I do not consider RU to be the end all, be all, in my education of learning Internet marketing. In fact, I am currently learning copywriting among other things from another resource. I just figure I will never have arrived!
There is alot of content on Hub Pages that I have no interest in. I simply don't read it and move on! I simply don't want to waste my time! On the other hand, I am glad that we still have the freedom to speak and write about what is important to us.
I believe that you will receive what you give. Maybe a little compassion and patience would better serve you in the long run!
@ dthomsen
This whole thing started when I was lookng at new hubs, and saw about 10 posted in a few minutes, along the lines of Make money with RU.
I had a look, and they were all short, pasted extracts with links to RU
A similar thing happened a couple of days later, from a different hubber.
When I searched for "Renegade University", pretty well all of the hubs I looked at were of the same format - some with about 20 links to RU.
Hence this hub.So - I wish Mike well with the solution to his dilemma.
And if you are learning copywriting, probably the best free resource that is available is the newsletters of the late Gary Halbert.
http://www.thegaryhalbertletter.com/
His language gets a bit salty at times, but there's a wealth of leartning there.
Wow. I guess it's important to understand that even with the best of intentions you are bound to offend somebody! I have been warmly accepted and greeted by the hubpages community and have made many friends here.
I have 2 hubs explaining what attraction marketing is, 1 on how understanding your target market dictates your marketing approach (using my daughter and her music career as an example), 1 article on effective teaching both in the school room and in the workplace, 1 article on article marketing which was in response to a hub request, and ONE article which explains how Renegade University can be helpful in learning how to promote a greeting card business. In light of this discussion, I may move the last article to a different site - maybe my website.
In my bio at the end of these articles, there is a link provided for people who wish to receive training with me at Renegade University. The information at the free university level is designed to help someone figure out whether this model of business is a good fit for them or not. If they are not sure, they can upgrade for 7 days for $1 and poke around all the tutorials offered so they know exactly what they would be getting before putting out any money. Along the way, they also have access to one on one help with their particular needs from their "guide" or support. Please don't take this as a pitch - I'm just trying to illustrate that what you get for free is a lot more than what you made it appear in your review.
You are getting a strong response from university members not because we've been out tons of money - we haven't - but because of the way Mike unselfishly gives of himself, his time and money to help us.
I'm learning more and more that this is the way many of the truly successful entrepreneurs conduct themselves. To overcome the impersonal nature of the internet, they realize you have to earn the trust and respect of your potential clients. They do this by providing value with no strings attached. It might be in the form of free training, free products, or great content articles. By giving so much from the start, they develop a loyal following.
Mike has taught me how to reach out and help other people. He's taught me how to lay the foundation for a strong business, ethically run. He's given me tools to teach other people so they aren't investing a ton of money they may or may not be able to afford just to get their business going (or mine).
So, you asked for results...I've been with the University for a little over three months. I created a blog (had no idea how to do that before) which brings me an average of 20 unique visitors a day, usually 3 or so sign up for the RSS feed. My content pages have been viewed about 4000 times in the past two months. My content ranks consistently on page 1 or 2 on Google in particular, although one of my more recent videos was at #5 on Yahoo out of 52 million entries. Some keywords are more competitive than others, but people are also starting to find me by simply googling my name.
People from all over the US, Australia, India, Canada, Europe are in regular touch with me. I recently attended a seminar I never would have known about without Mike which added several joint venture opportunities with established businesses who are interested in the ebook I will be publishing soon and I have several preorders for it.
When I call on a new customer I am warmly greeted because they were not only expecting the call, they had requested it. I give Mike Klingler credit for all of this progress along with my own drive and hard work -- and it is hard work.
Mike had already begun expressing concern about the way some of the newer members were over promoting - the university or other things. We received an email a while back explaining the importance of fitting in to a community like hubpages and learning the way to go about things to be sure value was being offered not just sales pitches.
So, as Mike would say, if you see a need, fill it. If you feel that people need to take a look at the way they are being perceived here at hubpages - help them out. Unfortunately, controversy kicks up more attention than simply being nice. But, believe it or not, most people are genuinely trying to do a good job and would welcome supportive, constructive advice from someone more experienced. Isn't that part of what makes this community so special?
What I see here being perpetrated by people who are biased against sales and marketing in general, in my opnion,is reaching conclusions based on a lack of information rather than an abundance of it.
I understand the criticism of unprofessional marketing. But to ascribe those behaviors to all 1100+ posts, and then to the entire concept of a RU is blatant bias. It loses the constructive criticism aspect and becomes nothing more than a smear campaign.
Then, Eric sort of admits some fault but turns right around and smears RU again with no factual or objective corroborating evidence and admits not spending any time at the site. Again, conclusions from a scarcity of information.
I hope that everyone who is interested in learning about internet marketing actually takes the time to see what's being offered out there. To those who are not interested in learning, who only look to tear down, I leave this quote with you in hopes it at least gives you a look at things from another perspective:
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, who knows the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the high achievement of triumph and who at worst, if he fails while daring greatly, knows his place shall never be with those timid and cold souls who know neither victory or defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
26th U.S. President
Hey, I understand that you have something against spam, and I'm sure there are a lot of spammers out there. You have the right to your own opinion, but if you haven't really studied in the Renegade University, your really just creating negative a feed on the people who have worked hard to create their own content. After spending some time at the Renegade, I found valuable information that would have taken me months to find if I was searching the web for it. If you really want to stop spamming, I believe you should create a hub that teaches people how not to spam, and create good content.
WOW.. Glad I did'nt write about Renegade University!!
If it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. It don't matter if the whole flock rises up off the pond and every one writes a nine hundred page novel extolling the virtues of RU, a duck is a duck, and I hope they don't all fly over my car.
Nice shootin' Eric, you got them all off the water with this one.
Shadebreath,
First you commented that no RU people would come here because they weren't here to read what anyone else has to say - then when they DO respond, and most in a polite way considering this whole article was written in a hurtful way as have been many of the comments - you STILL criticize and make unkind references to ducks, poop and shooting. One of the most respected hubbers here is on my fan list and she and I have communicated over shared interests - I'm very disappointed that the people here are taking one person's word for it that this is spam when you yourself said you "had no clue about these guys."
I'm deeply disappointed in the people who are so eager to believe badly about other people, that they are ready to pass judgement without being sure they have the full facts. I know there's no use convincing some of you, and I don't care to -- but for those of you who normally like to think for yourselves, do a little checking on your own. I'm here as BSilva. Read comments on my pages, look to see who my fans are -- do the same for other new hubbers and give them the same welcome and guidance you would want for yourselves.
OOOps! I'm here as silvalinings. :)
Well, perhaps the duck thing was too metaphorical, so I'll break it down more literally so that you will be spared from the insult you so quickly and needlessly take. The operating word in that old axiom is "IF" as in "IF it looks like a duck" etc. or, more pointendly for the sake of clairty, "IF it looks like spam" etc.
So, if it looks like spam, it is spam, and a spammer can write as much as they want in their own self defense declaring the purity of their intentions etc. Spam is spam.
That was my point. My purpose was not in anway meant to suggest that anyone not writing spam is a spammer, nor did I write anything of the sort had you read less defensively. The duck thing is pretty clear in that it requires something to look like a duck and walk like a duck to be a duck. So, if you have written some stuff that is ducklike, I was indeed referring to your posts. However, if you have not, as you clearly indicate, then I was not referring to your posts. Furthermore, there was a grain of humor behind my comment that, if you are truly not amongst the flock of spammers, you still seem determined to have missed.
I hope this clears things up and we can still be friends.
Social web 2.0 resources like Hub Pages provide a platform to build an audience.
There's basically 3 different groups of people who create Hub Pages (and other content on the web):
1. People who do it as a hobby with no intention of ever selling to that audience
2. People who do it as a hobby who 'might' someday sell to their audience
3. People who want to build an audience so they can have the opportunity to sell something to their audience.
Hub Pages doesn't have an issue with providing value in order to make money.
You'll notice that one of the big incentives offered for creating a Hub is to profit from Google Adwords.
Hub pages knows that most of their best content providers are here to make money.
They know that many of their Hubbers will want to link to their Blogs and other sites that lead to selling something. They know that this is what makes the Internet work. It's an economy and Hub Pages obviously wants you to be a part of it.
So that's not the issue.
I emphasized in my first comment that while RU sells products it is free to receive value from it. I shared that many people discussed it in their Hubs in order to provide 'free' value so they can attract an audience.
The fact that they can profit if someone in their 'audience' purchases something isn't relevant to this discussion any more than it would be to knock Hub Pages for wanting to profit with Google Adwords. We live in an economy. That goes without saying.
The more important point that I think was valuable, which is why I put my attention on this Hub in the first place is this:
What is the 'attractive way' vs. the "unattractive way" of introducing the value you provide?
The answer isn't arrived by just following rules--it's about how you will be perceived. Even if your intentions are 100% for the greater good... you have to take into consideration the experiences, perceptions and 'mindset' or paradigm of a community before you create your content.
One of the most valuable free areas of training at RU comes by email. In Lesson #1, we talk about 'Knowing Your Target Market.'
You have to know who you're talking to in order to know what they need or what they're interested in. Once you know this... you can provide good valuable content that will attract them.
While people are in the early stages of learning these lessons, I encourage everyone to try... Create some content. And never CARE one bit or apologize for mistakes along the way. This is how you grow. There's no short cuts.
As long as you're learning you're growing. If you're growing so is your audience.
So this Hub has served the greater good, if we allow it to, by showing us two important things.
First, that what you think may be spam may not perceived as spam by others.
Second, what you think is value may not be perceived as value by others.
Now, for those who are in the majority--who want to create content to provide good value in EXCHANGE for profits and success, they will need to be a student of this topic.
It will be those that continue to try, who study, who aren't afraid to make mistakes--who keep going... they will be the ones who will create the most attractive content and build a huge audience.
This Hub can be your teacher or your adversary--whichever you choose will be true for you.
Now get out there and create more content!
When do you serve the punch?
It's clear that there are many different types of affiliates at RU.
This hub is specifically directed at the those who come to hub pages and create hubs that are nothing more than pasted promotional material with links to their affiliate site. While this may well be acceptable elsewhere, it is against Hub Pages policy, and is the reason that I wrote this hub. And used the word spammers in the title.
During the past day or so, several people have said that they have were distressed by this hub to the extent that they have questioned their involvement with RU, or are frightened to post anything with a RU link.
To those people, this hub was not intended for you. And I'm sorry if you have been offended.
Appropriately titled hubs containing original writing from RU affiliates, giving their experiences and opinions about RU (with a link) are of course acceptable at Hub Pages.
I shall add some content to the hub later that will make this clear, together with a link to an RU hub which in my opinion meets Hub Pages requirements.
Hub pages is a community with rules. It is not intended as a free for all depository for canned sales pitches.
So to Mike from RU, thank you for discussing this in a professional manner. I sincerely hope that you are able get across the message to your level 1 and 2 students that if they want to share their RU experiences with members of Web 2.0 sites, that they do so in accordance with the rules of the particular site.
And I reckon this topic has been done to death now. Unless there are relevant points to address, I don't intend to keep posting to it.
I think there may also be some confusion about the difference between Renegade University and The Renegade Network Marketer e-book.
Although we discuss and refer to the "Renegade Network Marketer e-book" within the University, these are two separate entities.
It's possible that some of the 'Spammier' Hubs were from those promoting the Renegade ebook who haven't taken part in the University courses.
I don't know that this is the case but it seems conceivable that the two could get confused.
Wow Eric you have stirred up the hornet's nest -sorry Imean marketers! I think there is actually a real disconnect in the debate here which reflects the world-view of marketers and the rest of us. I see your facts decryed as wrong : with not evidence that they are wrong. If RU is telling people to go out and promote the ebook from day #1 then they are promoting the old chestnut of promote in the "make money online niche". That is the fundamental problem: people who discovered internet marketing 2 seconds ago suddenly promoting to everyone - buy this ebook! The owner claims to be teaching attraction marketing: I think that might be when you develpo a reputation and then the people who read your content actually keep on reading because you write well/are informed and then they might even buy something from you because you have helped them?
You know the shocking truth: in the real world the real estate agent who calls me every month: emails me every day: Iwon't buy from him. The one who I can ring up and talk to about a property he won't even get a commission on if I buy it and volunteers to give me the latest sales figures: he'll get my unswerving loyalty and my next commission.
Its really no difference online: just people who failed in pushing unwanted products on their family and friends in the real world think there is a get rich quick version online.
There isn't, get over it and do the work: the good news is that all the info you need is freely available: spend no money except for domain names and hosting for the first 6 months and u will do fine
@ marketingmerge
No, Mike, there was no confusion.
But I'm surprised to see you disassociating your course from the Renegade Marketer E-Book.
Isn't the Ebook a "CRUCIAL" component of your course? And don't you promote its purchase as one of your 5 "Cash Streams".
While they may actually seperate entities, I would argue that the intent is for them to be perceived as being one and the same. The colour schemes and names used for both are similar, and you have based your site content around the principles of this E-Book.
Clearly there is some sort of relationship or arrangement between the two entities, even if they have different owners.
@ Lissie
You've accurately summed up the difference between buying something you need from someone you know and trust, and buying something based on clever copywriting and a "make money" mindset.
Observe. Analyze. Think. Follow the money. Listen to your gut. These basic principles will guide you pretty accurately in most situations.
I recommend that anyone with a pulse reads Robert Cialdini's book "Influence". The insights into what makes us do things are incredible.
@ Eric
There are a lot of people who have read the Renegade e-book but have not yet heard of the University.
Many of these people have not received focused training about how to properly use Hub Pages, or training on the difference between spam vs. value-based attraction marketing practices.
The Renegade e-book is sold by Ann Sieg and we refer to it in the University.
It teaches network marketers about the basic concepts and principles of attraction marketing--but it's conceptual and just a first step introduction.
It gets networkers thinking about attracting business rather than chasing friends and family, or cold-calling leads, or basically 'spamming' in the real world.
The University helps people get far more acquainted with how they can use the Internet to set up their own 'attraction marketing' presence online.
The message is about providing value to attract an audience... the exact opposite of spam.
In Step 3 of the University, people can upgrade for tutorials and community support and participation. We take them through setting up their own marketing at many different locations with the computer novice in mind, and we further teach about how to create content and about leading with value.
The book is part of the University, but there are many people out there who have purchased the book and do not yet know about the University.
So it is conceivable that people will write Hubs about the Renegade e-book who have not been trained by us.
That's why it's valuable to have some Hubs that 'talk to' the Renegade e-book crowd (in a value-based manner, of course).
If someone has read the book, the University would assist them in learning how to create value-based content (rather than Spam).
They 'could' find training elsewhere but we believe our training connects with their unique needs and perceptions best, and can therefore assist them better than any other training on the topic.
By the way, the reason I suspected you had mistaken a Renegade e-book Hub with a University Hub (when you referred to spam) was because your stated number of Hubs written about 'Renegade University' doesn't match what I found when I searched for the term here at Hub Pages.
I therefore assumed you were counting all Hubs about the Renegade (about the e-book and about the University).
I would be very surprised if there were over 1100 Hubs referring to the University as you stated.
When I searched the term 'Renegade University' here at Hubs I found only 170 pages returned, about 15% of what you stated a few times here.
Within those 170 pages some of them had nothing to do with the University so the actual total results are actually less than 170, from what I can tell.
It really doesn't matter if there are 1100 Hubs as you stated, or 170 as it appears from my search... I'm merely explaining why I assumed you had mistaken Renegade e-book Hubs that may have spammed vs. University Hubs, most of which do not spam.
When I looked through the Renegade University results I found significantly more value-based Hubs than I did ones that could qualify as spam.
Those that did border over-promotional were clearly created by 'newbies' who made a sincere attempt to share their experiences and give value--I could not find one blatant attempt as was described here, which is also why I assumed that any Spammy Hubs were created about The Renegade e-book, not the University--which would be a separate topic of concern.
There may very well be 'Spammy' Renegade University Hubs, and if so I would be the first to want to see them go... but they are the exception and not the norm as your Hub originally stated.
More important, the sole purpose of the University is not to encourage people go out there and spam--that would be counter-productive for us.
Our members know this because we stress that point often...that's why so many students took offense to your accusations.
This will be the last comment I make to this Hub due to other commitments. We'll use this Hub as part of our training.
There's a lot that people can learn from this dialogue and it goes way beyond just following the rules of spamming.
With respect to others,
Mike Klingler
On google.com Search for:
site:hubpages.com "renegade university"
This search currently shows 576 pages. When I originally researched this at the start of last week it showed 1,170
The count has dropped by 600 pages. Perhaps the authors have deleted them. Perhaps Hubpages have deleted them.
I don't know.
But there are certainly less spammy ones around now.
I'm out of here too. Thanks to everyone who shared their opinions.
Eric G.
Wow. Eric, did you rip the scab off that wound or what?
I actually read through all these comments, and I have to say, I think your comments in the hub itself were dead on.
I'm exhausted now though, after all that! I need a nap!
I'm in radio/Internet/Event sales and if there's ever a way for me to do my job---selling and creating successful marketing campaigns the I'll at least take a look at it for the educational value alone. The "jury's still out" since I'm brand new.
Well done, Eric.
To all those Renegade Marketers who claim that they ARE writing an informative Hub about a subject about which they're enthusiastic, I'd say - go back and read your Hub. Is it really telling me anything meaningful about the subject, or is it just a repeat of the same old marketing spiel? For instance, have you described your own experiences, shared your results or compared it to other products? Then I'd say, it's not spam. Otherwise, it is.
For instance, I've written a couple of articles on Build a Niche Store. There is a huge amount of stuff about BANS out there - I wrote about what I found when I tried it, and my experiences in comparing it with phpBay. That adds value. If I'd just repeated the advertising blurb of the BANS site, it wouldn't have.
Eric - your hubs are always great :}
When you said: After looking at these, I can only conclude that part of the "University Course" is to use Hub Pages to promote the course to desperate money makers. (And of course to get backlinks to You Tube clips which - surprise, surprise, also promote Renegade University ...
=====
It got me to thinking well of course, and they certainly are only one of hundreds if not thousands that are doing the same d*nmed thing. Every good venue (like hubbing) that comes on line eventually and ya, usually rather much sooner than later, gets hit by the scumbags. Anything ti make a buck.
i doubt there's much to be done about it other than flagging every scummy scammy hub we find, repeatedly, as Hub says it takes quite a few thumbs down and reports b4 they'll actually Do anything about it - like ummmm- REMOVE the flipping Pages!
Plus the fact that HUB - being owned by google gets majorly great google rankings doesn't help - it helps those with actual good content but it probably helps the scammers more as they know all the tricks to stuffing with keywords, etc...I am Not about to mention *tricks* here in case some of these bozo's don't know them - I sure as shit am not going to be the one to tell them.
Well, ROCK ON ERIC! Love your hubs!
PS/ You said;You've accurately summed up the difference between buying something you need from someone you know and trust, and buying something based on clever copywriting and a "make money" mindset. Observe. Analyze. Think. Follow the money. Listen to your gut. These basic principles will guide you pretty accurately in most situations.
((Question: From Your POV I would like to know, based on the above, what you honestly think about http://www.unlisted-etcetera.com/aboutus.htm in terms of "buying something you need from someone you know and trust, " and "Listen to your gut" - when you read that page and hit the back button at the bottom you go to my main site (one of them anyway) - which has the *aboutus* link at the top of the page. This is and always has been my *way* of trying nicely to get people to understand that I AM honest, hardworking and trustworthy.
But I believe it has come to a point now where there are SO SO many scammers out there now (ESPECIALLY in the realm of phone tracing - of which I AM an expert, TRYING to pull themselves off as real P.I.'s that I need more *PUNCH*. I would really really appreciate your opinion; gloves off (ouch-scary).)) I think it has come time to take my OWN gloves off; Q: do I DARE name names???)))
"I recommend that anyone with a pulse reads Robert Cialdini's book "Influence". The insights into what makes us do things are incredible."((Is this a book book or an ebook I can download?))
I sure hope I hear back from you on this - it really matters to me.
Melanie
Melanie - I'll email you.
If it is SPAM, WHY ARE THEY NOT DELETED?
Thank you Eric - I am not quite sure how that works via hub but I am sure I'll get an email memo or the like.
Have a GREAT day!
M/
to charlie34 - I am unsure as to your meaning but if you mean the scummy liars not being banned from the SE, that is really simpe in many many ways - some of which are, in no particular order:
Google makes a TON of $$$ from them paying for linkage - these ppl don't have to know ANYTHING about SE optimization or the like, they jsut PAY for a spot on the rt. that will be noticed and most likely clicked on - and then their spammy wyas of getting people to believe they will get what they actually think they have paid for get tot hem - they pay and voila' - their money is gone and they get nada.
Most of these sites charge about 14 - 18 $ - they know that most ppkl won't go to all the *bother* of doing a charge back on a smallish amount of money. Busy lives we lead.
It is really very difficult to get Google or any SE to actually *Look , pay , go thru the process and come out the other side to see that they have been hosed. Ever had it work for you? I didn't think so. I can't even get google to get one of them to STOP stealing MY OWN pages and using them for their own gain! aarrgggg...
There are a few reasons - there are a LOT more. Check out this site - it helps a *little bit* - is better than nothing.
melanie
I have had some family visiting in town for the last week or so, and have only recently learned of Eric's Hub and the challenge he issued. I read through the Hub and all the ensuing comments, and decided I arrived too late to contribute anything new to the discussion.
Then I had an experience that I thought was relevant, and decided to write a Hub page after all. I feel there is a communication issue here, and I hope to clear up some misconceptions through the Hub.
After reading it, if you feel there are still questions or issues left unanswered or unaddressed, feel free to leave a comment at my Hub and I will do what I can to rectify that. I also hope the page is not considered too spammy, but if the critics here consider it spam, please don't hesitate to let me know, and I will make the necessary adjustments.
Here is the link to my Hub: http://hubpages.com/hub/Renegade-University-Collis
I look forward to your feedback.
Lane
@Melanie:
I sent you an email about 20 hours ago through the hub pages contact system.
@Lane.
That hub does not exist. So either you've unpublished it, or Hubpages have done something to it.
Hi Eric,
Thanks for pointing that out. Not sure why that happened. I'll post it again:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Renegade-University-Collis
Lane
@ Lane,
Looks like a hub with good content, and I wouldn't call it spammy. A good analogy, and personal experience is always interesting.
Don't worry, I don't intend to pollute it with my presence :-)
And you are displaying good marketing skills by linking to it from this hub.
But you need to be crystal clear that what you are doing at RU is learning some internet skills that are intended to build a list to promote the products of RU, Ann Seig, and associated affiliate product. And you will earn a commission from this.
You are not building your own business unless you eventually develop your own products, learn more internet skills, and create your own distribution network.
Before you can say you are running your own business you need to be able to generate an income if suddenly RU and Ann Seig disappeared off the internet.
If this happened, would you still be able to access your list? Or send them an email? Or have anything to sell them?
This was the entire premise that I objected to with the RU marketing stuff. The fact that you were being told that you were developing your own business, when from what I have seen and researched you are being taught to be affiliates.
And the entire point of my challenge. It's interesting that I haven't really had a convincing answer that gives details of any totally independent business developed from RU training that does not rely on the infrastructure and products of the RU/Ann Seig Tag Team.
But plenty of RU supporters magically appeared and used it as an excuse to say all sorts of things about me.
The "run your own business" hook has been used by many marketeting organisations, the largest of which was Amway.
In case anyone reading this thread hasn't heard of an expose of this organisation by one of its highest ranking former distributors, I recommend to you the EBook called Merchants of Deception, by Eric Scheibeler.
It's available free from
http://www.merchantsofdeception.com
I suggest that everyone involved in network marketing, or contemplating network marketing, dowenload it and read it.
(But of course, my critics will just say that I'm being negative again :-) )
Good luck, and I leave you with some words that I often say to my son:
"If you don't learn with your eyes and ears, you'll learn through your wallet".
Eric G.
And now I REALLY have to go to sleep.
Hi,
It's no doubt that you have done your home work crieticizing others mistakes and judging intentions. Life experiences all have some value and i believe no one's opinions are to be taken lightly. Some RU students are new to the network marketing business and some are old hands. Most come from DM back grounds that teach you to sell..sell..sell or recruit..recruit..recruit. If given an opportunity to change instead of a lable to condemn, i think is the high road road is to teach.
That's what attracted me to RU was the teaching. Mistakes are most of the time correctable and new thinking will manifest itself into a new reality. RU teaches right thinking through giving value unconditionally.
The greatest person who ever lived did that and they crucified him on a Roman cross.
With as much knowledge and expertise as you have, it would have been more to your stuature to identify the mistake and provide a solution that builds individuals up instead of beating them down.
Thank You jahmer.
So you believe that the purpose of teaching you these internet skills is not to enable you to Sell, Sell, Sell, and recruit, recruit, recruit?
Sure, it's a different METHOD that has been previously used. But the intention is the same. I've discussed this point many time, and am not going to waste my time addressing it again.
What I find very amusing is that all the people who have told me that I should be helping others new to the internet have obviously NEVER had a look at my other hubs.
And your last paragraph also show that you too have missed the entire point of this hub.
And now I'm really out of here. Like Forrest Gump, I have nothing more to say.
@ Eric,
In response to your question about whether or not the University empowers people to be in business for themselves, beyond teaching affiliate marketing, the answer is yes.
By the way, Renegade University is only a small part of a much bigger training program offered by Marketing Merge.
The University starts by speaking mainly to network marketers, teaching them the principles of attraction marketing (attracting prospects instead of chasing them).
It teaches that Network marketers are not 'really' in business for themselves if they work it the old-school way (as you references in your comments about Amway).
Network marketers (building the old-school way) are nothing more than glorified sales reps. That's one of the big messages in the course book, and is a major message in Marketing Merge and University training.
The University (and Marketing Merge) teach network marketers how to start structuring a REAL business, where we can use affiliate marketing and network marketing as only part of a much bigger model.
That's a new concept to network marketers who find us (that they can use network marketing and/or affiliate marketing as part of a bigger business model).
Most importantly, we're taught to brand ourselves and not 'JUST' a product or company that could go out of business as you say.
We're taught to build an audience that will be with us for a lifetime.
We're encouraged to build our own lead capture pages that brand ourselves...
and to build our own opt-in email lists--as well as how to build relationships with those lists.
We're taught to build our own 'web of content,' and how to set up a system like discussed by Robert Kiyosaki in Cash Flow Quadrant and Michael Gerber in The E-Myth... where we can either hire out the work needed to build a functioning system, or leverage technology so many of the 'business parts' like lead generation, happen in the background whether we are working or not.
The University & Marketing Merge introduce, of course, affiliate marketing, but expand upon this by encouraging members to build our own lead capture pages, blogs, and to create our own products. In fact, I know of several members who have created or are in the process of creating their own products right now.
The University is a stepping stone to empower both network marketers and others who want to be in business on how to create a thriving business of their own, with or without network marketing as being a part of the picture.
It starts by introducing affiliate marketing but leads them to creating their own 'brand', email list, audiences, products, and web of content--leaving them in a position to do a number of different things in business going forward with or without the University or Marketing Merge as a part of their model.
The training has to start somewhere, and it has to 'talk' to a particular audience that has a lot to learn before they can create their own product.
The University starts from the beginning, and takes them all the way up to being truly in business for themselves if they want to be.
Partners in Progress,
DiDi Alcheva
I read your bio and thought you may find the following worth writing a hub on:
I'm personal friends with Larry Hamil who is the marketing spokesperson. And this seems to be a very useful tool and in need of explanation to us lay people of how it works and what benefit it could be to us all.
Your bio said that's what you specialize in - I'd like to hear from you on this.
Sincerely,
Lisa Bryan
PS. I'm one of those nefarious or misguided Renegade University students you've challenged. If you would like to see one of my hubs which is a good example of what I've been taught feel free to find me on HP. One of my favorite ones is :
LOL @ Eric.
This is why holy war is so scary.
for some reason the link cuts off -
The title of my hub is :
Internet Network Marketing and Internet Marketing - Alice Meets the Mad Hatter
Eric I agree. But -- I do not necessarily believe it is the affiliates fault entirely. There is a lot of marketing out there and in that marketing it includes how to generate solid links and traffic. The problem lies therein. Hubpages is one of those sites marketers are told to go and put up a hub just as they do a squidoo. With sales pages the way they are nowadays the affiliate believes he is doing the right thing.
They come here, put up a page and leave. Most times using a throw away email address but the hubpage has served its purpose. Now where that leaves us is exactly as you described in your hub here. We are the ones left with the spammy pages to wade through.
Good post and well thought out.
@ Eric, Thank you for reading my Hub and responding to it. I would not consider it pollution by any means if you or any of the other critics here chose to post a comment on it.
I feel your last comments to me posted here were the clearest yet in defining your misgivings about The Renegade Network Marketer and Renegade University.
I understand how you could interpret the training as nothing more than an attempt to create an army of people marketing the programs. At face value, it can certainly appear that way. However, if you take the time to go through more than one or two training videos, you'll see that this is not the case.
Both Ann Sieg and Mike Klingler emphasize the importance of establishing YOURSELF as a solutions provider, and that any network marketing company, affiliate program or other potential stream of income should only be offered as a tool or resource that provides value, and that any of these could be removed and/or replaced by a better product or service.
As you yourself pointed out, to be truly successful you need to learn the skills to put yourself at the top of your business model, and anything else you offer can be added or removed to fit into that. Ann and Mike emphasize the same thing.
As I point out in my latest Hub below, these two programs are quite new. They are not intended to provide overnight success. While the students who are heeding the lessons are slowly building up quality content, those with the 'get-rich-quick' mentality are blasting themselves all over the internet.
While some people have gotten defensive about your remarks, I welcome them, because they emphasize the importance of considering the communities we are trying to establish ourselves in. Constructive criticism is necessary for growth and development.
I learned a long time ago that communication is always receiver-based. Regardless of our intentions, if the majority of people view our content as spam, then we need to re-evaluate that content and see what changes are necessary to change the perception.
Here is the link to my latest Hub about this. Again, I welcome comments and feedback:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Renegade-University-Scam
Lane
Love the ducks metaphors, Shadesbreath. I was beginning to wonder if picturesque speech had been done in by the Politically Correct thought police. Heaven forbid that they should set up shop in the web 2.0 world.
HP does have a policy in place about unfinished hubs. Perhaps a similar policy for any hub with no activity in over 3-6 months would be good for thinning the herd as well as keeping HP's and everybody's content fresh, like Google prefers.
As a newbie here, I'm astonished at how many take no prisoners holy wars there are going on around here. I expect to be stumbling over them as long as I am a (hopefully) productive member of this community. And no, I didn't even know about RU until about 2 hours ago, in case anybody's wondering, lol.
This hub's comments stand out in my experience as being extremely long, and I've learned a lot by reading them. And deducing that Mike has done one heck of a viral linking job.
Something that both sides of these holy wars seem to be forgetting is that we all sell something- image, expertise, clicks, etc. Not always for money. Leaders sell ideas.
Ideas are like mushrooms; some are good, some are bad and some make you see stuff that isn't really there.
Would be a decent idea for HP to clip off the dead stuff after a few months though; a good pruning makes for a stronger, prettier tree.
(I'd toss in some more similes and metaphors but I'm spent. LOL)
Farm out......
@ Chairman Matt,
I can understand why some people would label this discussion as a holy war, but I feel that is a bit of an exxageration. I don't think there is anything wrong with being passionate about something, as long as you maintain the ability to use reason.
I agree that everyone is selling something, when you get right down to it. One of the greatest dialogues about that is in 'The Big Kahuna', between Danny Devito and Peter Facinelli. Peter's character thinks he is above selling, but Danny points out that he has been doing exactly that, and why.
@ Shadesbreath,
I love the simile between ideas and mushrooms. I would add that some are more palatable when you wash them down with a cold beer.
Lane
@ Eric
Actually Eric your added comment today that "NOT ONE PERSON has been able to address my challenge, and provide a link to a hub or website where they are using what they learnt at RU to promote their own products, and not those associated with RU" is not true. If you would have looked at my hubpages and websites you would see that I promote multiple products and services that are not part of Renegade University. Renegade University is only a small part of the multiple ways I generate income. I addressed your challenge in my prior post here, but didn't want to include links to my site in case I was accused of being a "spammer", but since you are now asking for links, here they are:
my blog - http://www.ahomebusinessworks.blogspot.com/
my websites: http://www.ahomebusinessworks.com/
http://www.homeschooling-freedom.com/index.html
My testimonial is also on the Renegade Marketer sales page with some of my income and business growth documentation. I am one of many others who I know are successfully building their businesses through what is taught at Renegade University and the Renegade Marketing system.
Lane, it's the topic, not the discussion. But it's good for fresh content. Any hub with a long debate seems to score very well from what I've seen so far.
Hey Eric, WOW, that can was FULL! Wish I had all those worms for my bass fishing hub.
And yes, I am a RU student. But I am trying to provide value. See this hub...
Thanks, Mike (not Klingler)
Wow, Eric, I love this hub! So many well written comments. Not only 'I like this hub'...or 'I don't like this hub'. It's almost a little booklet about the Renegade University educational techniques and business approach (ups, I mentioned long tail key word). You could really optimize it to get PR4 or even (PR5) and to rule your chosen niche Key Words. I noticed submission on Digg, which is a good back link support, but I haven't noticed Delicious and some other...you know where to find me if you need any PR4, 5 or even 6 support. This hub could be really called a HUB, yet that's only my personal opinion):
OK, now that the dust has settled on this, I'll address the most recent comments that have said something new.
@Diyana / Didi
I'm not surprised that Renegade University is only a small part of a much larger program. There's always an upsell to more products, and higher priced products for the converted.
Re: Membership of affiliate programs as being in business for yourself. Well, we are just going to accept that we have different interpretations of what this means
@ Lisa -
Your friend is going to have an interesting time, given that Google are in the process of releasing their own chat application. And no, I'm not interested in providing an explanation of how it works. Wouldn't that be his job?
And the hub you mentioned is appropriately labelled, and is very different from the hubs that I wrote about in this hub.
@terryg
Thanks for your comments.
However, by putting up a pasted hub and leaving, the hub ranking of the users are too low to provide a backlink. If a hubbers ranking is below a certain number, (I think it's 75) , all links in their hubs are "nofollows"
@Lane - Thanks for seeing some of my point of view.
@Chairman Matt,
I don't agree that hubs with no activity should be deleted after say, 6 months.
I'm continually seeing interesting hubs where someone has found and resurrected a 2 year old hub.
@Wendy
I'm glad you're doing well, and your home schooling site looks good. It's also a creative way of marketing RU/Ann Sieg associated materials to a target market. Well Done.
However, I don't regard affiliate activities as being your "Own Business" for reasons already discussed many times in this hub.
To give a clearer example, I suppose that you would regard a McDonald's Franchisee as having their own business. I would not.
Anyway, If RU is giving you what you need, that's great.
@Mike
Nice hub on Bass - We don't have them here, although Tasmania is one of the best places in the world for Trout fishing.
@SolarShingles:
Thanks for the comments. This hub is not about optimising for keywords, or looking for rankings. But thanks for the offer, and I'll keep it in mind for some other hubs.
This hub is just my thoughts about the way that drive by internet marketers pollute any site that has a bit of traffic. Quite frankly, I'm very surprised at the volume of responses.
I'd like to step up to the "challenge." I have created a hub that I feel is informative and not just a cut-and-pasted ad. Please tell me if you feel differently.
Yes, that would be too broad a net when used as the only criteria.
@mlmwriter
You have written an appraisal of your own experiences with the RU system that is appropriately titled, and is probably the most honest review that I have seen.
However, please do not consider this as an endorsement of RU in any way. I am just answering your question about whether your hub is informative. And it is clearly not a "cut and pasted" ad.
(And if you have another look at the challenge, you'll see that it adresses another point entirely :-) ) Regards, Eric G.
Touche, Eric. You are correct in that I cannot completely satisfy the Challenge at this time. But I have put together a new hub specifically addressing the Challenge, and I will post to it as I make progress implementing Klingler's teachings.
Eric,
Great Hub, I 100% agree that there is too much Spam on HP and other social type network websites.
I believe each HP should be unique and offer something to the reader without expecting them to have to signup for something at the end of it.
Great Job!
-Phillip McGough
I don't know where I've been for three weeks to have missed this exchange.
Eric, you are doing a fantastic job of giving us Hubbers the tools to practice critical analysis not only of the spam Hubs that generated the idea for this Hub, but also of RU and other like programs. I've learned a LOT from all of these comments. In fact, I almost feel as though I've attended RU myself!
Those who are critical of and astute about IM and MLM on the Internet tell you to beware of scams and dishonest advertising campaigns, but they don't tell you exactly what scams and dishonest campaigns look like. Instead, they often expect you to read between their own lines to come to those definitions for yourself. This Hub has given me the critical tools I need to effectively assess an IM offer.
I think this Hub has been an outstanding learning experience. I also think it's been a free ride for RU promoting itself. Well, that's the risk we take when we state our opinions and invite comments in this amazing arena that is HubPages on the Internet!
(In that there was no way I was going to read every one of the comments in painstaking detail in one afternoon, my comments may reflect those of others.)
Best regards, Sally
They didn't get a Free Ride, Sally. They gave up and moved on.
@Phillip. thanks for your support.
@ Sally's Trove:
Thanks, and I'm glad you are learning from this hub.
Shadesbreath, the *they* I meant is Renegade U, not the spammers. Maybe the spammers moved on (and that would be the good news), but Renegade got a good amount of free publicity here.
Eric, wow you got a lot of comment and you are so graceful in how you handle it. Is this an atribute common to Tasmanians? I did not see that I had any knowledge of the subject until you brought up leg breakers, Comming from a sewer in Chicago I said there is a subject I am familiar with and then when I found out that I could not participate I felt left out.
An observation, you Eric have with this hubpage put yourself in the top hub pages I cannot find any MLM in that level of HUbpages
Now you have done it I am going to read more of your stuff
Westholm
Thanks for your comments Westholm.
And "graceful" is not a word that's usually attributed to me :-)
@ Eric
We have seen plenty of hubs mentioned here, created from RU students, that are value-based.
With 1170 hubs created by RU students it seems to me we should applaud and thank RU for teaching their students not to spam, and yet your hub does the opposite here. It's very silly.
Yes, Diyana I am silly.
But not for the reason you have mentioned.
And your comment clearly demonstrates that you have not understood what this hub is about.
Hello Eric,
I think this Hub is about a great many things.
Just one of the highlighted points covered in this Hub is about Renegade University and the subject of Spamming, which is evident by the title.
Titles serve to introduce the topic of an article, and your title is, "Renegade University Spammers--it's Time to Put Up or Shut Up"
When you started this Hub originally you made a strong case that Renegade Univeristy students are spamming. You were then shown that this initial assumption was incorrect, and that quite to the contrary, Renegade University is teaching its students to be value-based content contributors.
Yet, your title, "Renegade University Spammers--It's Time to Put Up or Shut Up" remains, along with some earlier points you made that suggest Renegade University promotes spamming.
Now that you realize your initial assumption was incorrect, it's silly to leave that point in your Hub or title.
No Diyana, this hub is about ONE thing.
People who promote RU in ways that are against the rules of Hub Pages.
But lots of people by their comments have certainly taken it on wild tangents into other areas.
My initial research for this hub (or assumption as you choose to call it) has not been shown to be incorrect.
I see no reason to change the title.
And people reading the hub will draw their own conclusions anyway.
As you have.
I think this article by John Reese parallels this discussion quite well...
"Wake Up Call! Web 2.0 Wouldn't Exist Without Affiliate Marketers!"
Here's a link to his article: http://www.income.com/blog/2008/06/19/wake-up-call
If you scroll down in the article you'll find this. I think it says it all...
John Reese writes:
I’m so sick and tired of the anti-marketing attitudes of writers, pundits, and others on the Internet. It’s been going on since the Web started to take off in 1994/1995.
So many of these people make it out like all Internet-based marketers are only selling scammy, rip-off garbage. And while the Internet is certainly filled with all kinds of jackasses that spam and abuse every known online service and tool there is, not enough ‘credit’ is given to marketers (like me and most of my customers) that have great marketing and success online and do things the RIGHT way.
And not enough credit and attention is given to the fact that if it wasn’t for Internet marketers there would be no Internet or Web 2.0 as it is today.
MONETIZATION IS THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE INTERNET.
Without all of the affiliate marketers, affiliate merchants, small bloggers, advertising networks, marketers buying PPC traffic, and everything else that is a part of the “Internet Economy” 99% of what’s on the Web today would not exist.
-----------------
That'll be my last post in this saga. Enjoy the exposure. Mike Klingler continues to send everyone at Renegade University to this Hub for educational purposes.
Stay respectful!
Didi
Oh, I just couldn't help to write about something I just now saw on this very Hub--an advertisement to the Renegade Network Marketer e-book!
And That's an affiliate product!
You just can't ignore the importance of affiliate marketers in the Internet economy. There's even an affiliate marketer advertising on this Hub, through Hub Pages (because Hub pages makes money from it as well)!
Just because something is an affiliate product does not mean they're trying to rip people off, scam people, or teach everyone to spam.
Read John Reese's article above for more on that topic.
Ok, now I'm really out of here... just had to laugh when I saw the Renegade banner (an affiliate product) advertised right here on a Hub that's so negative about affiliate marketing.
LOL.
Ah dear Diyana,
The fact that you think that I'm against affiliate marketing shows once again that you have not read my hub, and do not understand what it is about.
And you appear genuinely surprised that a google advert for Renegade University would appear on this hub. Perhaps you need to find out a bit more about how Adsense works.
(And I'll resist taking a cheap shot at the irony of someone having to use Adwords to promote attraction marketing products)
Bye Diyana. All the best to you.
Great hub. Massive controversy in a bottle :)
Hi Eric, have you actually seen "many" spammy Hubs that promote Renegade University as you described?
You wrote...
"This hub is directed to the many hubbers whose sole hub activity is to create lots of spammy hubs containing only sales pitches for RU consisting of boilerplate promotional material, and anywhere from 2 to about 20 affiliate links"
If you can, please share these 'many' examples of hubs whose sole purpose is to give a sales pitch for RU.
We'd all like to help these people become value-based when they share here at Hub Pages.
This may also make your Hub more credible to those who pass by, which I'm sure you agree is important.
Yes, I have actually seen MANY hubs like that.
Why do you think I wrote this hub?
And as we discussed many comments ago, there are far fewer hubs promoting RU now.
I don't intend to go and check them all to see whether they are spammy.
And even if I still had the original url's, they would be useless if the hubs don't exist any more.
@ Eric
I think you wrote this Hub to build your audience, first and foremost.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Sorry Mike, you thought wrong.
Hi Eric, it's clear that anyone who doesn't share your opinion "thinks wrong." No need to apologize.
Since the topic here at this Hub is on the subject of spam--and since many people here on Hub Pages would like to build an audience, I'll include a link below to a Live Webinar we did last month to help beginner marketers learn how to create content that gives value and attracts an audience... without spamming.
The topic is "Attractive Vs. Unattractive Content"
Hope this is helpful for some people looking to build an audience of their own, for any purpose.
Whatever you say Mike.
I think that people who have read through to here will have made up their minds about our respective opinions.
This was a fun read, these Renegade University Marketers are certainly loyal or very financially entrenched in the program. After reading every single one of these comments I cant help but notice that NOT one these marketers was able to link out to a page or service they created that includes any tangible products or services - the closest being wendy and her home business site which you already commented on.
As a simple case study it would seem your original observation is valid.
I would contest that an affiliate business is in any way inferior to selling a product that one has in their own possession.
Many years ago in the outernet (where the oxygen is) I was able to make great money working as a freelance graphic designer by offering my own printing business which was in fact me using internet based printing companies that had much much lower rates than the local brick and mortar stores and faster turnaround times.
Now a days I have fallen away from selling my own products on ebay (time spent in aquisition and shipping was defeating of the lifestyle I was looking for) and now spend much more time promoting ePN and niche sites offering gametables (foosball,air hockey etc.) Which I am an avid fan of and create real value filled commenetary on as I own many of the products I promote. I also promote my site in the real world to bar and nightclub owners locally and offer advertising.
From what I read about RU from your page it seems as if these people havent been able to look out of the box of the first affiliate and market they were introduced to, Iwonder if they realize what the commission is on a $1100 Billiard table or a 22,000 motorcycle?
I wrote this In case any of them ever come back to see this site so they can see an example of what someone who learned some basic marketing skills yet maintained ethics is able to create.
Eric- Nice hub. I usually search with these keywords ""renegade university scam" or something similar like fake and find some information. Yes we need to be able to report such links somewhere which are of no practical use to anyone.
EricG, Very Informative!
WHERE'S MY PAL "DIDI" ANYWAY? AND WOULD YOU GET MIKE OFF THAT CELL PHONE?! IT'S GROWING OUT OF HIS EAR!
I entered into this challenge some months ago. I am forced to suck in my pride and admit defeat. You can find my concession post at the top of my hub. My conclusion: Renegade University's methods took up more time than I felt I could duplicate.
Hello Dave,
Thanks for coming back and commenting.
I'm sorry that you weren't able to make RU work for you. If anyone could - I would have thought it would be you.
I've recently noticed that the whole RU thing has been ramped up a few notches, with Mike Klingler and Ann Seig joining forces and creating a new LLC to promote their product. Aparently 22,000 people have watched the 50 minute promo video.
In one of the stream of promotional email about their new, improved training they encourage their followers to promote their wares using the "SOCIAL MARKETING" sites YouTube, MySpace, Facebook, Squidoo, and Twitter"
Silly me. I thought that these were Social Networking sites, intended for people to communicate with each other.
So now, we are seeing the tens of thousands of marketing acolytes being told to go forth and spill their pearls of wisdom about attraction marketing at all those Social marketing - err - Networking sites.
Retch. Chunder. Gasp.
Oh well. At least they didn't mention Hub Pages in their list.
Thanks again Dave. You showed real courage coming back and posting here.
Dear Eric,
I see this issue has been rekindled. Found it by your comment on Lis Sowerbutts' blog regarding SBI. I admit my only published hub is on the edge of overly promotional, the kind you lament. In fact, it was flagged and pulled down for this reason. However, as you request, I am participating in this community.
I did notice the source of traffic to my hub was mainly from inside HubPages itself. I'm new here, and do take this as a lesson learned.
And I'm not here to contaminate your hub, or detract from your conversation. Don't appreciate pitching on someone else's turf either. Had this experience on my Facebook profile, and it lessened the value of my profile for all of us.
I'll create a hub with my take, and link to this hub and Lis's within the next few days. I appreciate the wake-up call to all of us who aren't gaining popularity in this social media platform.
Thanks again Eric,
Gary Beall
Thanks Gary.
All the best with your hub.
LOL Wow Eric, just stumbled over this following your comment - pretty impressive :)
Now I know what pet peeve you have! :)
I'm writing this on 5th July, 2009.
About 2 months ago, Mike Klingler (Hubpages username marketingmerge) and others started posting a series of comments here. These comments were intended to prove that people were using what they learned at R.U. to build their own businesses with their own products, and not merely learning to resell RU products as I have pointed out in this hub.
There were about 10 posts, totalling around 6,000 words. As I have not been able to address this avalanche of comments due to other matters, I just left them visible to speak for themselves.
A few days ago, I made the comments invisible as I was going to address them.
This resulted in the following email to me from Mike Klingler:
====Email from M.Klingler to me. ===
"Did you delete the comments posted over last couple months showing numerous examples of RU students who met your challenge (who have created their own products out of what they learned here)?If not please let me know I don't want to incorrectly misrepresent what 'appears' to have happened here.Mike Klingler
======End Email==============
This is my reply to him;
Ah Mike, I was expecting a visit from you.The comments have not been deleted.I left them there for several weeks, and then unapproved them a few days ago. The few links that I did follow in that deluge of promotion from you and your students (totalling around 6,000 words) were to sites which also promoted your products in some way. It's a bit naughty of you and your followers using this thread in this way.Look Mike, the challenge I set at the top of the hub is pretty clear and simple. I'll repeat it here for you.
"Have you used the knowledge you've learned from this "University" to do anything besides trying to flog the program to other people?
If so, write a hub to tell me (and other hubbers) about what you've done, and how RU has trained you used Web 2.0 to build your massive mailing list to whom you sell your own wonderfully profitable products. Put a link to it in this thread. "
Do you understand that Mike?
A LINK. To a HUB.
That will offer people FAR better promotional opportunities for their businesses.
Getting people to post thousands of words of promotional material for your products into the comments of this hub is a waste of their time, and I will not approve them.
Perhaps your people HAVE created websites and mailing lists that have nothing to do with promoting Renegade University.
Believe it or not, I'm looking forward to seeing a link to one in future comments to this hub.
In fact, I'll make it even easier for your students and drop the requirement to create a hub.
Just post the link to their site here (But without all the R.U. sales pitches and promotional material)
I'll even provide this proforma to use :
==========
Hi, My name is [enter name here]
I used the training provided by Mike Klingler of Renegade University to build this website, which promotes my own products and not those of Mike Klingler, or Renegade University.
[URL to website]
===========
People will then be able to easily see for themselves whether the nominated sites are meeting the spirit of this hub.
Remember: Less is More.
And to avoid any confusion, I'll also be posting a copy of this correspondence to my R.U. hub.
Kind Regards,
Eric Graudins.
====================
Well, I've looked at some more of the sites linked from the comments mentioned above, and found some that are not promoting RU.
these are:
Dorothy Scott http://www.premiumwebsites.net/
Jerry Graham - http://www.thecoachingpair.com/
So a year after this thread was started, I've finally been presented with evidence that R.U. students are learning how to do something other than promote Renegade University.
Congratulations and Thank you. That's all I've been asking for all along. My challenge has finally been answered.
So - the offer remains open. If you are a RU student who wants to add a link to their non-RU promoting website here, go for it.
(But please don't write enormous promotional pieces for RU and its successors)
regards,
Eric G.
Mike Klingler's response to my email to him:
=================
I thought the point was if RU students have learned how to build a list of their own creating products of their own.
To say that a product, like a book, CD, etc as an example, can't refer to another book or school is absurd. If I studied at a certain martial arts school, for example, and created my own product (a video) it is absurd to say there is less value in my product because I refer to the original school I attended.If you had left the comments and made your statement / comment back, I could have replied and others would have gained from the dialogue.However, if you're removing comments there' s no reason for us to continue putting energy into the thread. I'll be sure to direct people to the rest of the story, including your email to me here.Mike
My response back to Mike Klingler:
==============================
You're missing the point entirely Mike, and I'm not going to enter into another long series of circular discussions with you.
I've explained why the comments were not approved.And if you and your students don't want to create a hub about their experiences with RU as was originally specified in my Hub, or just post a link to their sites without loads of RU related promotional material then this just provides confirmation that all you are seeking here is promotion for your various businesses.
This is the only one of my hubs that I am not allowing comments to appear instantly. The reason has been explained.
If anyone wants to submit comments according to the guidelines stated, they shall be approved.
Fascinating hub - I've read all the comments, and some of the hubs linked to in those comments, and the whole RU thing appears (to me) to be a mixture of the blindingly obvious and a lot of jargon-heavy waffle.
Uninvited Writer says:
2 years ago
Well said, we seem to be drowning in spam. And I consider it spam if it's something that my spam filter in my email would file in the spam folder.