Renegade University Spammers - It's Time to Put Up or Shut Up.
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A Challenge to Renegade University Affiliates
You've probably noticed that the affiliates of a marketing program called Renegade University are very active on Hubpages.
1,170 Hubs About Renegade University
Google tells me that there are 1,170 hubs promoting this "University"
After looking at these, I can only conclude that part of the "University Course" is to use Hub Pages to promote the course to desperate money makers. (And of course to get backlinks to You Tube clips which - surprise, surprise, also promote Renegade University
Now, I haven't looked at all 1,170 hubs. But those I have looked at seem remarkably similar. Almost written to a formula, or some sort of "cookie cutter" style.
Another common characteristic is many promoters with a very small number of hubs. All containing similar text promoting Renegade University.
Some affiliates have written hubs which initially appear to be on a variety of interesting topics - which then quickly turns into a pitch for - surprise surprise - products associated with Renegade University.
The really clever ones pepper their hubs with links to a lot of different sites - which all promote R.U. (So it seems that they are aware of Hub Pages max. 2 links to a domain)
What did not see in any of the hubs was an indication that the authors earned any income from what they had learned from Renegade U - apart from learning how to promote this course and its associated products to other poor buggers wanting to make money on the internet.
So - Have I bought it?
No. You don't need to actually bite into a shit sandwich to make a pretty good guess at its contents.
The Challenge - (If Anyone Wants To Accept It )
So - Here's a challenge for all you Renegade University "Students".
Show me the error of my ways. Call me out on what I've written here.
Have you used the knowledge you've learned from this "University" to do anything besides trying to flog the program to other people?
If so, write a hub to tell me (and other hubbers) about what you've done, and how RU has trained you used Web 2.0 to build your massive mailing list to whom you sell your own wonderfully profitable products. Put a link to it in this thread.
If you CAN'T meet my challenge
Then I'll assume that you and all the other RU students are only using HubPages to promote Renegade University and therefore are breaking hub pages rules. You're very lucky that Hub Pages management have not removed your hub.
Because Hub Pages policy clearly states that :
Our objective with HubPages is to support authors that have the desire and intent to develop a readership on the HubPages site, and to contribute in a positive way to the HubPages community. If your intended use runs counter to this objective -- for instance, if you're sole purpose is to get back links for other sites or to promote or sell dubious products through your hubs -- then please stop using HubPages
And you may also want to check out the conditions for banning hubs that are substandard, overpromotional, and duplicate content.
You'll find that your Renegade University hubs don't meet them.
Are You Getting Sick of the Blatant, Serial Marketers and Spammers on HP?
If you're one of the hubbers who isn't selling RU, maybe you'd like to leave a comment about what you think of this and the many other blatant marketing promotions that are trying to get around the Hub Pages rules.
Does it make you so mad that you can't take any more?
- then SHOUT OUT AND LET EVERYONE KNOW.
Addition to the Original Hiub:
I'd like to clarify that my use of the term "spammer" does not include hubbers who take part in the Hub Pages community, create properly titled hubs, and write about experiences, and include their RU affiliate link.
A Hub like this from "Renegade Coach" is certainly within the spirit and rules of Hub Pages.(But this comment is not intended to be an endorsement of RU, internetwork marketing, internet marketing, MLM, or whatever term you choose to use for this practice of building lists for the purpose of selling RU products, or any other MLM products. )
This hub is directed to the many hubbers whose sole hub activity is to create lots of spammy hubs containing only sales pitches for RU consisting of boilerplate promotional material, and anywhere from 2 to about 20 affiliate links.
This hub has generated a lot of comments, controversy, and free analyses of my mental state.
[Edit 6th July 2008. I'm interested to note that in the 2 weeks that this hub has been in existence, and despite almost 90 comments, NOT ONE PERSON has been able to address my challenge, and provide a link to a hub or website where they are using what they learnt at RU to promote their own products, and not those associated with RU. In the midst of the smokescreen of red herrings, emotional pitches from RU acolytes, and general abuse towards me, I think that says it all.]
This hub has also caused some distress and confusion from new hubbers and those using RU to learn about social marketing, and building their own lists and their own businesses. However, I'm not entirely sure how much you'll actually learn about this, apart from the procedures involved in setting yourself up to become an affiliate to promote various products associated with RU)
Nevertheless, many RU affiliates are very satisfied with what they are learning - as you'll see if you read the comments defending RU with religious fervour.
If you are a network marketing student, or intend to be one, I recommend you download and read the free EBook called Merchants of Deception, by Eric Scheibeler.It documents the reality behind the facade of the giant AMWAY organisation.
It's available free from www.merchantsofdeception.com
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Comments
Thank you for your vigilance! By the way, some guy with a broken leg came to my door yesterday, and told me I had better join your fan club. you don't know him, do you?
@ rmr.
Ah, that'd be Wayne the leg breaker.
I had to send him out to do a bit of work on another hub :-)
I hope you gave him a double whisky, and somewhere to have a good lie down. And if you don't join my fan club, I'll send him around again - with Bill the Arm Breaker.
(Yes - you guessed it :-) )
Well done, will anyone accept the challenge?
I joined weeks ago, so I gave him a whiskey, and sent him on his way. He looked a little off balance, so I sent my own man to accompany him. That would be Freddie the eye-poker. His dog knows the way to the airport.
Eric! You're invited to my graduation ceremonies. I'll be graduating from U-of-spam July.....Just kidding. I loved the hub and the comments. (I'm a fan already so no need for the 'breaker team'. By the way did you read my new hub yet? It's called...kidding again. My fave '...But then again, you don't need to actually bite into a shit sandwich to make a pretty good guess at its contents.'
As always great entertaining and educational hub regards Zsuzsy
Eric, You had me cracking up! I know what you are saying. I seriously understand, but sh*t sandwich? :) I don't know anything about RU, so I can only imagine that once again, a flock of 'students' do what the teacher directs them to and then as I went through in MLM Goldmine, too many people try to shortcut and it's a shame. I am still a student of network marketing and as much as I'd like a million people to join my business today (no, actually I wouldn't), I feel that a certain respect and common decency should be shown for other people. But, I guess, then spammers would have nothing to do anymore, eh? I hope that one day marketers 'get' relationship building VS. high Google ranking. But, thank you for this hub. In some ways, it has shown me to be more careful with what I do on my own hub and make sure that I show that respect and deceny I'd like to receive. Have an awesome day!
Eric, you hit it bang on.
Many of these programs have to keep it as simple as possible which means that you end up with a lot of people all doing the same kind of marketing with the same kind of content.
And they wonder why they are not successful.
I love it. The thing is, you know none of those guys are even going to read this because they're not here for reading anything anyone has to say. It's the same with those water4gas guys. I put links to my anti-them stuff on all their crap and they don't even comment back or bag on me for messing with them. Nothing. They don't even read their own stuff. Bastards. Capitalism run amok, I tell you.
Anyway, good hub, I'm glad you pointed it out. Had no clue about these guys. Oh, and LoL @ shit sandwich.
I have decided to step up and accept your Challenge.
I am a 100% supporter of a guy called Eric the one with a broken leg.
Let's band together and send them packing with two broken legs.
@ Mr. Marmalade -
Probably not a good idea. There's not enough plaster of paris in Tasmania to set that many broken legs :-)
@ Bob Ewing.
This hub is #5 at present for a search on renegade university, so I'm expecting an absolute FLOOD of takers for my challenge.
Any moment now. Or at least very soon. Perhaps. Maybe.
Because, of course, the only people who ever type "renegade university" into Google are RU users who want to see whether they have managed to claw their way above the other 3,500 RU users who are also trying to be in the first page of Google for that term.
Ordinary human beings who are not yet involved with RU don't Google the term ...
Although, if I may humbly suggest a modification, if you optimised yourHub for "renegade university REVIEW" you might actually save a few benighted souls from parting with their hard-earned cash for the bloody thing. A small porportion of slightly more savvy internet users will Google for a review of something before trying to buy it.
You won't be able to save them all, but each one saved is 10 fewer spam hubs on the topic, so it's worth considering, IMHO.
Jenny
Well done. I hate clicking on hubs and finding that they are just sales pitches. I didn't know about the RU rubbish but I do now! Thanks.
Hi Eric great hub. but I avoid the water cars, renegade universities and the sales pitch by selecting who are my fans whom I follow nd read of course and I often choose to read stuff by people who make intelligent or witty comments. So far I have been lucky and have found good calibre hubs and hubbers. I also tend to avoid self promoters who seem to be punting links.
@ Jenny,
The point of this hub is not really for potential victims of RU to find, and I doubt that any of them will. (Apart froma few hubbers who are now a bit wiser if they encounter a sales pitch for R.U.)
Your idea of optimising for review would normally work, but if you google RU review or RU scam the first few pages are taken by affiliates of RU who are using youtube, viddler, ezinearticles, etc. etc. to promote RU.
So the creators of RU are really quite smart, in that they are selling their product to an army of affiliates, who they train to promote RU right across the web using techniques that can be quite clever.
They've created their own little army of spam bots, who have paid for the "privilege" of promoting RU
Anyway, the point of this hub is to eventually make a request to Maddie asking that all these RU hubs be removed on the grounds that they are breaching Hub Pages rules by being self promotional, duplicate content,and that the hubs are contrary to the stated purposes of hub pages.
Thanks everyone for reading this hub, and for your comments. Glad I'm not the only one who's had a gutful of these sort of tactics.
@sixtyorso:
Yes, becoming a fan of people who make witty comments on other peoples hubs is one of my favourite methods of discovering people whose fan clubs I join.
Although I suspect I'll lose a few fans myself as a result of this hub, as there are some RU members in my fan club. shame they haven't taken up my challenge :-)
Eric, I'm fairly new here, but I have noted a ton of spam. The ones that really get me are the ones that tell you how rich you can get just by clicking their magic link. They must think we all graduated from ol renegade U
I'm fairly new to this part of Hubpages, so I'm not aware of the influx of renegade university members. I am a member of RU, but I don't have a hub page on it.
I will say the core of the program is to teach people how to market, in that it teaches where to put up sites- in which this site is one of them.
The creator of RU teach people to put up good content sites, not advertising sites that Don't offer value. The problem is NOT with RU, but with people who don't understand how to write good copy, how to write good content, how to add value in what they write.
By the way copywriting training is not part of the course. Perhaps it should be??
In terms of using RU, to make money...
It's great for learning step by step about how and where to put up sites, but as a money-maker it really falls flat, unless you're selling a lot of memberships.
Like with any hubpage, the content has to stand on it's own and not be reliant on a "click here for more info" to finish saying what the hubpage should've said.
Just my two cents.
Corrisa;-)
Thanks Corissa for your comments, which confirm my thoughts about RU.
It really pisses me off how all the rabid internet marketers are so arrogant to assume that they have carte blanche to game anything on the internet that has the slightest possibility of generating a sale for them. (ie any site that has traffic of any sort.)
Take craigslist for example. This site is for people to run classified advertisements in their local area.
However, it has just become a battleground, with Craigslist having to use an ever increasing series of defences to try and keep out the hard core marketers.
So what do the marketers do? Accept that they are not wanted there?
Not on your life.
They increase their efforts, and lots of people are making lots of money selling EBooks that tell people the "secrets" of getting around the defences of Craigslist.
Ain't human nature wonderful!
Just like all the other MLMs, money making opportunities, etc. The only way to make any money is to sell the "program" to other poor suckers.
"The only way to make any money is to sell the "program" to other poor suckers. " - 100% True Statement.
Great aExpose Eric,
BTW I drove from Hobart to Launceston back in the 50's Loved the country And I learned that you are not Aussies.
See my hub on MLM fiction
Keep up the good work
I created Renegade University so I thought I'd weigh in on the subject -- not that the dialogue needs any more spicing up... after your mouth-watering sandwich remark!
Rather than taking any of this too personally I'll see what I can do to clear some things up.
You made valid points but I'm certain you would have framed it all a lot differently if you had spent some time at the University to do some research first--for example, you would have known it's free. You would have also found it interesting that the emphasis is on teaching people to provide value.
But there's only so much time in the day... you can't research everything. From what you did see I can understand why you wrote this Hub the way you did.
So let's look at some of the valid issues here. One of the issues is that there are a lot of people popping up at Hubs talking about Renegade University -- they appear to be new to Hub Pages
Some of them are linking to their blog or 'somewhere' else that also discusses Renegade University. It appears that their only intention is to promote something that makes them money--not to build an audience at Hub Pages by providing value as the main theme.
So let's address all this.
It's important to emphasize that Renegade University is free.
There are products that can be purchased inside the University, but there's a tremendous amount of free training that people can spend months on for absolutely no cost.
There's so much free training that it violates what information marketers would teach as an effective conversion strategy. Renegade University’s primary purpose isn't about selling something... it's about giving something.
So if Renegade University is free, why are so many new Hubbers talking about it in their Hubs? What's in it for them?
Answer:
Most of these people are in the early stages of learning how to provide value in order to build an audience, and they are using the University to provide this value because they're still learning how to provide value on their own.
The emphasis of our training, in both the free University, as well as in the paid courses, is to lead with value... to give before you ask to receive.
Hub pages is one of many places we share they can go to begin doing this... to build an audience.
It makes sense that it will take 'some' of them time to learn this important fundamental lesson (giving value first).
Let's look at where most of these people have gotten their 'past training' from...
Not all, but many of our students are from the network marketing MLM world--each representing different companies and products. We're teaching them to attract people to them by building an audience... and to do that by giving value first.
What we are teaching is very contrary to what the old-school MLM world has taught them... people have been told that everyone is a prospect for their business, and to approach friends, family, neighbors and strangers... as well as to cold-call leads whether they're interested or not (that's spamming in the real world).
It's not a surprise that "some" (emphasizing 'some,' not all) of them will take that 'spamming' perception online--even if we stress not to in every lesson.
The students who stay with us 'Get It' pretty quickly. Those who graduate end up figuring out the difference between 'attracting people' like you're doing with this Hub, versus repelling people by becoming a spammer. But what is valuable content, exactly? What is valuable to some will not be valuable to others--so it mostly has to do with your intention, which becomes evident by how you 'frame' your information. Are you creating the content (the Hub) for me the reader, or for you? Beyond that, we define "valuable content" as anything your 'target audience' is interested in reading about or discussing... subjects, topics, books, classes, people, etc.
The Hub here, entitled, "Renegade University Spammers -- It's Time to Put Up or Shut Up" would be an example of the type of value we would teach students to try to create for themselves--although this uses "negative marketing tactics" to 'attract' a discussion and audience... it is still value because there is an audience of people here interested in the topic.
There would be nothing inherently wrong if there as a link to a blog or a lead capture page at this Hub -- in fact, it would be smart the marketing process was that well developed. It would not be a violation of Hub policies to do so.
Still, that's only the case when your main emphasis is to share your opinion and insight on a topic that an audience of people may be interested in. So what is valuable content? I had written this in an article, which I shared with many of our students.
This is an excerpt and I see now how many of them may be getting stuck on understanding value vs. spam... In the article it stated...
"So what can you offer? What can you contribute? The list of what you can offer is as infinite as the stars in the galaxy... and that is no exaggeration.
I like to teach that people simply start from where they're at in their profession. What do you like or enjoy about your business?
What fascinates you the most? Focus on those topics. Research them. Join groups that discuss them. Network with people on the web who share news or posts about those same topics. Genuinely contribute and learn from others.
As you network and begin to learn new things, share your opinion on what you've learned, on people who are well known in your area of expertise. Build up content on the Internet that reflects your reviews on books, other sites, people and their ideas..."
I think that by writing up something about Renegade University they felt they were adhering to this advice... they were trying to give input about something that they were familiar with... I would not be surprised if some of them are overly promotional.
Some of them have work to do I would agree. But not everyone at the University is making that mistake. Some have graduated...
There are plenty of good value-based Hub examples... there are many Hubs that have nothing to do with the University--about all kinds of interests and topics. They get it.
I wanted to tackle the other point made--where you challenged University students to share how they have benefited from the University itself.
The University isn't a get rich quick program--it's a training system.
There are plenty of examples of people who have learned how to successfully set up good value-based content for the first time, who have started growing their own list and even made money through affiliate marketing from what they've learned... many have used it to generate leads for their own business, by leading with value. Maybe some of them will take the time to share what they've learned in this Hub.
I may share this Hub with the University community as another means to train them on the consequences of being a selfish marketer (as we call it in our training).
I agree that a large portion of newbies have a lot to learn.
I know that some people out there don't want to learn--they don't care--they want to spam. But that's just not the case with the University students.
If you offer to help University students learn how to do this correctly they will be eager to learn. I think that this is more of a true test of their intention and character than their first shot at making a Hub.
Create Hubs to help them learn how to do it right--they'll come. They'll contribute. You'll like them.
Thank you for your comments. Some of the points you make are correct, but I'd like to address some others with you.
Unfortunately I can't do that immediately. It's late Sunday night here and I'm just about to go to sleep, and the next 2 days are packed pretty solid.
Till my next post then,
Regards, Eric G.
I have been involved with Renegade University for 3 months now, about the same amount of time that I have been involved with Hub Pages. I will give you my impressions of each. I have been impressed, as a whole with the quality of information and writers involved with Hub Pages. The degree of passion inherent within much of the content is quite evident. Many of the writers are writing because they love it, and it is difficult for them to accept writing for promotional purposes. Of course, these writers understand that because Hub Pages is a content sharing website, individual writers have individual agendas. People within Renegade University have their own agendas, backgrounds, writing abilities, overall skill-seta etc. I can only speak to my own perception of what the program is all about, and what I believe the program attempts to accomplish. The program is all about providing value, and Mike Klingler is a role model for that core belief. At the heart of all his trainings, he communicates values of sharing and communication. He NEVER brings up, promotes, suggests ANY aspect of any particular business, mlm or otherwise. He is not about that. Does Renegade University train people to market on the Internet? Absoulutely. Do individuals fail to market within the spirit of attraction marketing? It is unavoidable. Many of us are still learning, some of us are selfish. The selfish people were selfish before they ever got involved with Renegade University, and they probably always will be. Most of us are enthusiastic about learning what Mike is teaching, and would like nothing more than to be friends with the wonderful Hub Pages community. Be patient, I truly believe you will see more value from our offerings in the future.
Ive been in business and have been an entrepreneur pretty much all my life, and agree that people should never be pressured into spending their hard earned money on anything that they don't agree with weather its spamming on the Internet or advertising offline, when I come across Renegade University a couple of months ago and was pleasantly surprised at the teachings of attraction marketing this new model of attracting people to you, not the other way around Mike Klingler makes it perfectly clear that this is not about promoting Renegade University these teachings can be used for any business weather you're selling flowers,cars,shoes what ever, its all about attracting people to you and its up to you to make the finial decision on weather to purchase the product or join the program their will always be selfish and dishonest people out there who will always have their best interests in mind online and offline,and yes we are all learning and getting better at this including myself,I'm glad to be a part of the hub community and have met many interesting people from all walks of life and will continue to contribute to this content sharing site, that's what freedom of speech is all about, last time I checked we still live in Capitalistic ,Democratic society, bottom line is if you don't like what someone is selling you don't have to buy it.
Hi, I'm Didi. I just wanted to step up to the challenge and say that I've definitely made money and built my own prospects list from what I learned at the University. But I haven't started a Hub yet. I used other ways.
Since starting last December I've created a little over 900 leads total. And these gave me their phone number not just their email address. I never call them but they're great contacts. And they all know my name and requested to receive information from me. I learned how to do all this from the University. I used to buy my leads and now I actually make money getting them myself.
I've made about ten thousand dollars since then but most of that is from other affiliate products that I learned how to market through the University, not from the University itself. The point is I've learned how to market myself and attract people to me. The money I made so far is just the beginning.
I can take what I've learned to make money in numerous ways that have nothing to do with the University. So far I've taken what I learned at the University to build my own blog, use Squidoo, and use video (and some other places). I knew of these things before but didn't know how to make them work for me until the University started.
I used to have a hard time knowing what to say or contribute so I can understand why some new people make a mistake when they first make some content out there like at Hub Pages.
I'm working on my first Hub now and it will not be about the University although I may mention it. Not because I am pushing it but because it's been a big part of my life lately. It helped me a lot.
Partners in Progress,
DiDi Alcheva
lol
Eric - Ask and ye shall receive. I wonder of all 1,100 hubbers will turn up and tell you what a fantastic program this is?
I am one who is guilty of spamming as you call it. Not because I am a spammer per sae, but because I am enthused about what I am learning.
No where else can any one find a training program as straight forward, thoughtful and truthful as Renegade University.
Some might call me an old man and I am, I am 76 years old. I owned an offline business for nearly fifty years. A very successful one I might add. I am very familiar with offline marketing. When I accepted the Renegade University FREE offer of training, how to do marketing on the Internet I excepted the challenge. But first I did a little research first. Apparently you did none, so you really don't know what you are talking about
I would guess you are a writer and a good one at that. I would also say that you are an arrogant Bastard who doesn't know what he is talking about.
Truly yours
Grant Logan
There are many good points made here. On both sides of this argument. I think the biggest lesson to be made is the fact that those Renegade University students who are actively promoting "Renegade University" on hubpages, on squidoo, and everywhere else on the Internet are pissing in everyone's Cheerios.
They don't yet understand the concept of branding themselves as an expert and then using their expertise to gently guide people toward their business.
Personally I can't stand these hubs and lenses that all say the same thing and provide no real value to their readers. It reeks too much of the same ol' hype bullsh*t that many of us who've been on the Internet for a long time have already smelled. That being said, I also am a member of R.U. and have found it to be high quality training for people who have no clue how to "attract" people to their business via the web. The folks doing this are making it tough for everyone, themselves included.
That being said, I have to defer to the others comments made here: many people are selfish, many people are new, many people don't understand the concept of "value". I appreciate your opinion here. ~Jesse
First my confession - I am a R.U. student. I have done my best to follow all rules of all sites I join. All my content has been directed to readers who are interested in Internet Marketing - home business. If you have no interest in what I write about I would presume you would not click on it to read, just as you would not pick up a book to read it if you had no interest in its content. I do have other interest also - so if I happen to see a hub that looks interesting I will visit it. Sometime I will make a comment on it. If it turns out that it was really not that interesting to me - I just leave and go on to the next one that catches my eye. From your hub I can see that maybe some of us were maybe over enthusiaic & maybe a few were really intentionally spamming. However as hard as you may find it to believe there are many people who really are interested in what we have written. What you consider art I may consider junk. As for making money - you probably went to college to learn your trade or profession - college was a learning experience - not a money making experience - R.U. is the same for us. I have not made a dime on R.U. and that is not my purpose for being in R.U. I hope to make money from my business, that is what R.U. is teaching us to do. We don't all get A's to start with - a few may even get some F's at first. And just like in real life - as you are driving down the road, if you see a billboard advertising some product or movie - you don't have to read it - just drive on by.
I was a little hesitant about adding to this long list of comments. Is there anything to say on either side that hasn't already been said? But then I thought my 2 cents are just as good as any, so here goes.
I am also a RU student. Although I hope my articles would not be considered spam, I am afraid that you may consider them as such. The problem lies in the definition. After all, my novel may be your spam.
The first thing we were told was to get over our fear of writing and just do it. We were told to write about what we know, what we feel, what we think, and what we are excited about. This is what any teacher in any writing class would tell their students.
A good writer is only good if they follow that rule. Yes we were also told to gear our writing toward our target audience. Again, what every good writer knows.
And therein lies the rub...what I am excited about is my new found knowledge. Not all of which comes form RU, but a good deal of it. So I write about my life, what I found worked for me and what didn't. Can I help it if that means that I bring the RU into the Hub? Should I be banned for writing about my experiences?
I don't intentionally write my articles with selling anything in particular (except myself of course) in mind. But I do have a link to RU in some Hubs. I have a link to other sites as well. Sites that have helped me thus far and that I hope will continue to help me. I also have a link to my blog, is that over promoting myself?
I agree that there is a fine line between the issues, but how is my right to write about my interest infringing on your right to not read what I write?
As I tell my kids when they are making a mountain out of a mole hill ... GET OVER IT!! It just is not that important! Walk away.
So to anyone out there upset at the RU students learning how to write and getting a little carried away by their enthusiam...get a life.
Thanks for all the comments.
I hope to have time later today to make a proper response.
I also am a member of RU and I have participated in any number of available internet marketing tutorial programs available by reputable experts and I find RU to be at a level equal to some and far better than most.
One course I took (not RU) was teaching us how to create a blog. Everyone used the same platform and this particular platform literally shut down because of the attention put to it.
My point is that most of us are relative newbies to using the internet, all the rules, and how to's.We all weren't born with a mouse in our hands.
I've made mistakes and am still making them. Sometimes it takes time for "the penny to drop". But, I keep working at it because it's important to me and a challenge for my internet future.
Mike and the RU are teaching us great things to use in whatever business we are involved in but we have much learning to do and no, we don't get it right all the time. Some of us are selfish and some us are unintentionally selfish.We're struggling to learn and conquer our fears of putting ourselves "out there" in cyberspace.
What I think is sad is the low tolerance of people who aren't at "your level" of hub creation or writing.It's a sad state of affairs when you assume the worst in people and bad intentions.
If you don't want to read what we write...don't. Just like if you don't like what's on TV, turn it off or change the channel.
If you want to help...teach. Maybe send a private email to one who offends you and offer some valuable advice..constructively. After all, we don't go out and deliberately try to offend....as some do.
The RU is open to people from every level, newbie to the expert. Some of us are slower to learn than others. This is a go at your own pace program. The intention in this course comes from the heart and in good spirit and good will.
It's unfortunate that we aren't as perfect as you'd like us to be. Perhaps learning some tolerance and acceptance would be a step in the right direction.
All humanity is here... Eric, you've attracted a flood of comments that should give you (or anyone else, since it's all in the public domain) enough material to write hubs, and even e-books, on several subjects.
For a start, we have just about a big enough sample of RU students to show that , as a group, they are no different from those on all the other marketing and copywriting courses out there - even when they have learned the 'attitude' part of the game, most of them will need to do a lot of work developing their writing skills - first basic spelling and grammar, then the subtleties of copywriting. Some will never make it. Others will. Almost all will be better off for having made the effort.
Message to RU students (and people participating in all the other training schemes out there):
Don't pay anyone anything until you have demonstrated to yourself that you have understood and made good use of the free stuff. Even the companies who sell very expensive one-on-one coaching are giving away excellent free guidance and tools these days. If you can't get the hang of the free stuff, don't kid yourself that it will be easier if you shell out thousands of dollars. There are no magic bullets. You have to work.
Eric, you have made your point and it is well taken. There is no need for you to wake up tomorrow to post again. Now it is time for others to voice their thoughts, which I have just read and will hope that you do as well.
First, I looked at the Hub topics that you wrote about in the past to see what you are good at writing about. I found that you seem to be a person that looks for the negative in things instead of the positive. That's OK, for there are many people who will read this kind of stuff all the time. It makes some people feel better when their life is not going so well to see others suffering. You know the saying; misery likes company.
I have been very sucessfull in the Network Marketing industry for 26 years, much longer than you have been writing Hub pages. Over these years I have always taught people to look for the positive in a person and what they are good at doing instead of the negative. In this case, you are good at putting all people down when a few mess up.
Second, I would suggest you learn more about your subject first, and then look for how to help people learn how to do it right instead of putting others down. Then, maybe you can learn how to earn a living helping people instead, like I do, like Mike does at RU, and many others who really do enjoy helping people.
I can understand you not liking spam, none of us do. But you also have to understand that when people find something good like RU, they tend to want to share it with everyone out of pure excitement, not always because they can earn a dime, most don't.
I have been with RU for 4 months now and have learned a lot as well as earned from it for referring others and from developing some of them into leaders. Those I referred have thanked me for helping them turn their businesses around due to what they are learning about on-line marketing and attraction marketing.
You wonder why there are 1,170 hubs on Google about RU? Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, it might be because it is a great university and growing very fast?
Look at You Tube. They grew that big because it caught on with a lot of people. Did they put this site up just to be nice or to earn a profit? What about Face Book, My Space, Hot mail, or any other business on the Web. They are all on the Web to earn a profit and they will do that because they offer value to those who want to be heard, just like Hub pages.
When building my business before the Web was available, there were some people who would put down MLM because they tried it and failed or knew of others who failed. Instead of looking at why they failed, they instead pointed fingers at others who were having success and talked it down saying they were ripping off people, they were just lucky, they knew the right people, and so forth. Much like you are doing here. Some of those same people are now in the network marketing business.
Last, I would suggest you re-read Hub page policy:
Here is the sign up page:
HubPages allows you to create a Web article on anything you like. Here's how it works: Sign up -- Absolutely free and takes just seconds Create a Hub (your own Web article) quickly and easily Make money when visitors to your Hubs click on ads So there is nothing wrong with making money. Our objective with HubPages is to support authors that have the desire and intent to develop a readership on the HubPages site, and to contribute in a positive way to the HubPages community.They are doing this, but some have more to learn in order to do it better, just like anyone new to Hub pages. I wonder what your first Hub was like. If they are spamming people, they will be removed. If your intended use runs counter to this objective -- for instance, if you're sole purpose is to get back links for other sites or to promote or sell dubious products through your hubs -- then please stop using HubPagesMost RU students are not doing this because RU is for real and is helping a lot of people. The word "dubious" means giving rise to uncertainty, of doubtful promise or outcome <a dubious plan>, questionable or suspect as to true nature or quality <the practice is of dubious legality>. Check out RU if you want to learn something new about marketing but you will need to come with an open mind, which I am not sure you are there yet.
@ Chabrenas.
You give very good advice.
@ everyone else: responses coming soon.
I have considered for some time whether or not it was wise to comment on this Hub. I mean, why contribute to increasing your Hub and Google scores! But, I finallly decided to go with the "any publicity is good publicity" perspective! And I want to thank you for that. All of us in Renegade University appreciate the marketing!
Yes, I am another one of those "Renegade spammers!" Even before this hub was posted, I had been considering whether or not the amount of links to Renegade my peers and I have used is gaining any traction for anyone. There are people who are gaining prospects and signing people up to the Renegde and to their main businesses as well. (In fact, I have had success) People who would never think to just google Renegade are finding the information on Hubpages and signing up. The rate at which the Renegade is growing is a testimonial to the value the training provides.
But ihas been a learning process. Many of us are learnng how to use tools we had never heard of just a few short months ago. The good news is that as we learn what does and does not work, we will be passing that back to Mike, and I know he will incorporate that into future training classes. So perhaps the "spamming" in the future will be less pervasive.
I have recently begun to believe that if someone finds my hubs of value, they will go to my profile and follow the link back to my blog and then back to the Renegade. And the truth is, if they are motivated enough to do that little bit of independent research, they are motivated enough to benefit from the Renegade. But the whole point of marketing is to distinguish ones self from the crowd, therefore, extoling the values of the Renegade may not be the best topic to publish a Hub on today. So, I have adopted a new personal policy that I will minimize my links to the Renegade on Hubpages. I hope I wasn't offending anyone with my Hub links in the past. I felt I was fairly judicious in my linkage. But once again, if someone is already angry, any perception of insult is not well tolerated.
As others have posted, I always assumed anyone reading my hubs had similar interests and would not be offended. I mean, why would anyone waste their time reading what is not of interest to them? Just click "next!" Clearly, that may not have been the case.
I look forward to readingyour response to all the feedback you've received! Have a great Tuesday.
Having been in the network marketing industry for over 7 years, I have a very low tolerance for "hype" and can appreciate concern for overly promotional hubpages. However, I find that educating people is far more effective, professional and of benefit to the internet community, than attacking people and judges them all as a group instead of as individuals.
Also, from Chabrenas comment, it would appear that only people involved in marketing training need to work on their writing skills. Don't you think there are a lot of people new to Hubpages that have a learning curve before they will be creating high quality Hubpages? Again, why lump and judge people as a group?
As many have said, Renegade University provides free training to help people learn how to utilize the internet to attract people to them. From what I have seen the intention of most people is not to "spam" but to learn how to provide value to others. Yes, there is a learning curve in that, but I think it would be far more productive to give some tips and help to new people rather than shoot them down. I think Maddie Ruud's hubpage is a great example of this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Substandard
I was already utilizing the internet strategies taught in Renegade University when a downline leader of mine told me that the resources in Renegade University were helping his new people. I am always interested in taking a look at something that is helping people, so I tapped into Renegade University myself to take a look. I must say I have been very impressed with the quality of free training. Mike does an excellent job of taking a novice step-by-step through the process of learning the various aspects of internet marketing. His training warns people not to "spam" but provide value and attract people who have an interest in what you have to offer. Do all of the students understand this immediately? Well, probably not, but he has certainly shortened their learning curve and helping them avoid the "old school" marketing mistakes of considering everyone your prospect and verbally "dumping" on them.
My testimonial of the Renegade Marketing system appears on Ann Sieg's Renegade Marketer page. I submitted income documents to validate my testimonial. So yes, the strategies taught in Renegade University have worked - not only for me, but for many of my associates who have put the time and effort into implementing them. Renegade is not a "get rich scheme". It simply is teaching good, value-first, marketing to connect the marketer and consumer together - providing a win-win for everyone.
I am a real estate broker/investor and a investor friend told me about this RU Internet training. He investigated it for 3 weeks part time. After the thourough investigation he suggested that I join. I did.....let me tell you that this is the best thing I have ever done to advance my learning the Internet. Thanks Mike for starting your company, I consider you a blessing.
For the unhappy guy that started this mess I would suggest reading "How To Win Friends And Influence People" again...or if you have not read it...read it.
The course is great and it really opened my eyes up to the Internet..
I, like DiDi do not have a HUB page yet but the old giser that started this will only encourage me to get mine going.
thanks
Jim Wood
864-542-2725
jim@assetswork.com
I have a question for you sir. Who can speak intelligently about a subject and not know the details of that subject? If it's you, then congrats, you are the first one I have met. While I do appreciate every person's voice and the right to their own opinion, what suprised me is the level of ignorance in your article. And I don't mean to sound offensive, but this is fact. I know I am going to upset a lot of people that responded to your article in agreement, but after I read most of them, they are ignorant of the details as well.
You aren't seeing Renegade because it's a bunch of spammers "Floging"(as you interestingly put it) their usless product on you and others. You are seeing SUCCESS! Success because of the amazing VALUE of the Renegade content. You see people promoting it because of that value, and they want to share it with all. But again, you wouldn't know that because you are ignorant of the details.
Now, I understand hating spam, I hate it too. But before you make statements and judgments about subjects in which you are ignorant, may I suggest educating yourself on that particular topic. It is obvious that you didn't even bother to take the time to figure that out.
I use Renegade to educate myself and improve my primary business, and it has proved to be an invaluable tool for me in my online efforts. I respect your opinion because that is your right. And now I have exercised my right to tell you how I feel. I look forward to your response
Vr,
Jess Eggemeyer
I too have learned from RU, but have no Hub pages yet. I do have Squidoo and a Blog. Maybe soon I'll create a Hub.
My Hub sould have to be on something I know at least a little about, and which is stimulating enough to get my 'creative juices' flowing. So since I'm excited about the free training at RU, and the whole concept of Atttraction Marketing and how RU is helping me learn about it, I guess I'll at least mention RU!
I didn't join RU to make money but to learn - and I have made some money from affiliate programs Mike and Ann Sieg have shown. But making money from RU directly was never my main goal. I joined to learn.
Just as I'm selective in what I read, I guess you can be too! I liked the suggestion that if you have constructive criticism to make about someone's Hub, why not email them directly or at least leave a constructive comment!
And if my first attempts offend, I'm sorry for you. I'll try to learn and improve. We don't all start off as experts! But even in leaving a comment I'm growing!
Maybe the Tassie cold is getting to you... I know my outlook lifts significantly after the winter solstice is passed even though the days remain cold! It may be just psychological, but it feels real! Check out RU for yourself - you may be surprised at what is available to help newbies!
Eric I happen to be one of the technically terrified. And your hub terrified me! LOL. I was a frustrated network marketer who thought they had an online business only to finally have the penny drop and realize that ordering my products online and having them delivered to my door does not constitute an online business. I was looking for ways to take my business online when I found Ann Sieg. She offered so much value that I was drowning in information. Then along came Mike Klingler, gentle, patient Mike. I felt like he had thrown me a life preserver!
Reading your bio, it could have been you instead. Your bio is in complete contrast to your hub. If you were to overcome your negativity you would be a wonderful addition to Renegade University! We are thirsty for knowledge and we want to do it right. Rather than suffer from analysis paralysis Mike gets us into action. The learning curve I have been on these past few months makes my head hurt most of the time but I’m having a blast. Reading your article is enough to scare people into never writing another article! Undoing all of Mikes patient effort.
I’m not at the “don’t take it personally stage” yet so your article upset me. We are just learning to walk here. I was conscious about not promoting my company or my products as that would be perceived as spamming. By promoting the university I thought I was providing a service to people like me that were floundering. It’s something that I know about and something that I am very excited about. I have had several offline cold contacts get very excited about what I’m doing online and they are now checking out the free university before they decide if they want to upgrade to the Renegade Professional for $1 for one week. I was blown away by the amount of value provided in the university. Upgrading was a no brainer for me; I have paid far more on a monthly book/CD program which for the most part were inspirational and motivational CDs to get me to pick up the 100lb phone to call yet another friend or relative or worse go mall crawling. You should be thanking Mike for getting us off the street! LOL
Most of us passionately believe in the network marketing industry but were not happy with the old school methods of building our business. It is a breath of fresh air to actually have people come to us by clicking on a link in one of our articles. There is no pressure; they click of their own volition. They choose to read the article or not. I would suggest that if you are not open to new information that you should definitely not click.
They say the mind is like a parachute; it works really well when it’s open. If you are open, I would encourage you to get in contact with me or Mike or any one of us from Renegade University and come and see what we are about. You can email at Irene.paradigmshift@gmail.com rather than click on one of those dreaded Renegade University capture pages.
To reiterate I think you have a lot to offer us fledglings if your bio is the real you vs the negative hub guy.
OK,
This hub started out as an observation that I had noticed a LOT of hubs that promoted Renegade University (RU).
Hubs that had little content, and were basically similar sales pitches to promote RU with a view to earning a commission for introducing new members.
It appeared to me that the purpose of the training at RU was to set up an affiliate scheme to sell RU and associated products for commission.
But, I thought perhaps I was wrong, and therefore asked RU members to respond, and let us know if their training has resulted in anything other than making money from promotion of RU and associated products.
Well, a couple of people said that it did, and they have made money from promoting and selling their own products. Thanks for that, but you would appear to be in the vast minority.
Most of the other posts consisted of some free psychoanalysis for me, rants which made all sorts of assumptions, and comments about my intolerance for newcomers to the net, ignorance, and general negativity about all things internet.
( And I'm still trying to work out the significance of the comment from "Bob" who made the puzzling point that he had been a network marketer for 26 years - much longer than I had been writing hub pages.)
There also was a very polite, eloquent response from Mike, the creator of RU.
Mike wanted to emphasize the important fact that RU was free.
And that the free members are in the early stages of providing value in order to build an audience, and that they should focus on topics that they knew about, and write in their own style.
He said that he was training a whole lot of people in marketing techniques and providing value, that they could then use to build their own lists, and generate leads for their own business.
He said that some of them are selfish, don't want to learn and just want to spam. He thought that some probably get a bit overpromotional with their hubs, because they are so excited at what they are learning at RU.
I don't have a problem with any of that.
And after Grant Logan told me that I was an arrogant bastard who didn't know what I was talking about, I thought that I better find out a bit more about RU.
So I signed up to RU with a Hub Pages member.
OK, here's what I found.
1. Yes, RU is free. When you sign up for Renegade University at Mike Klingler's MarketingMerge.com, you come under the "wing" of a guide, who will help you with anything related to RU.
2. There are 3 Steps in RU. The first step is a brief introduction to RU, and strong encouragement to immediately purchase the Course Book, "Renegade Network Marketer" written by Ann Seig. This costs $67, half of which is paid as commission to your guide
In the words of Mike himself, before you start Step 2, "Its crucial that you read your course book". So is RU really "free"? You decide.
3. Step 2 is 8 stages for you to get started. These stages consist of:
- Setting up your affiliate links to recruit people into RU, so that you earn commission when they buy the Course Guide
-Joining a free traffic exchange scheme
- Getting a domain name and redirecting it to your RU sales site
- Learning How to track your Ad campaigns
- Managing your prospects and viewing commisions
The last part is a sales pitch for the next stage, where you pay $39.95 per month for access to more videos, and a higher level of training (And you'll earn an ongoing monthly income from those you sponsor into the higher level training.
OK, so there it is plain and simple.
The free access gets people into the marketing funnel, where they are upsold to an e-book and a monthly membership. Pretty standard marketing tactics.
There's an old saying - follow the money.
In his remarks above, Mike says:"So if Renegade University is free, why are so many hubbers talking about it in their hubs? What's in it for them?"
Mike, I would have thought that was obvious!
- They get $33.50 for each person they sign up who buys the course book, and commissions from people who sign up to the professional level if they themselves are at the higher level.
Do you thing that this possibly could be an incentive for many people - especially those recruits gained from your recommended traffic exchange site - to promote (spam) the hell out of RU wherever possible? I think so.
In Closing:
Unfortunately, I was unable to find any evidence of any training to prevent people from promoting RU until they had learned the "right" way to do it.
On the contrary, the big button saying "5 Cash Streams" tells them about the different ways they can earn commissions, and encourages them to start recruiting as quickly as possible.
Perhaps all of the instructions about providing value, not spamming, and learning how not to be a selfish marketer is at level 3. Or contained in the level 2 videos, not all of which I watched completely.(Most wouldn't load - even after 15 minutes)
Mike said that the emphasis of RU is to teach people to provide value. Well, I guess that's true - if value is defined as the promotion of RU.
I can understand all this sudden influx of people defending RU. After all, you've probably invested some money, and perhaps made some money from RU. And you don't like anyone stating the obvious.
So - if you do write hubs that contain valuable information, and not just a sales pitch for RU, they will be welcome here.
Put some of yourself into your hubs. Make them interesting. Become an active community member.
Don't just paste some your form email sales letters into a hub, change a few words, and post it on hub pages.
And Mike, now that you are aware of this issue, I'm sure you'll take steps to address it in your RU material. In step 1 would be nice.
From the comments in this hub, I can see that there are a lot of genuine people at RU. I hope that you recognise this Mike, and look after them. Treat them properly - and not just as an ongoing income stream that is to be maximised.
And after all that, my thoughts about the hubs that this discussion began with have not changed.
Regards,
Eric G.
@Jess:
Nowhere did I say that RU was useless.
This hub is about the manner in which affiliates of RU breach the rules of hub pages by promoting it in the way that they do.
A point that has been totally lost on most of those who have responded to this hub.
Including yourself.
@2Ken -
Contacting every RU affiliate whose hub is overpromotional is a task way beyond my capacity. Hopefully this discussion will result in Mike addressing this issue at level 1, where I suspect most of the problem lies.
@Renegade coach.
If you read the things I write about, you'll discover that there's no conflict. This hub has gone way beyond the simple request I made at the start.
I hope you learn a lot at RU, and that Mike looks after you well.
And don't be afraid to write hubs. The way you write about RU is honest, and comes from your own experience.
It's not just a cut and paste from some promotional material.
I would certainly not regard your hub in the same category as the ones that caused this hub to come into existence.
I have to admit when I read this Hub it gave me a stomach ache and headache. It appears that you created the thing you accused RU students of creating - the sandwich comment.
I too am relatively new to Internet marketing but not new to Network Marketing. I only have 2 Hubs posted here but that is because I have just begun. I have to say that your Hub has given me a bad impression. Yet, I know not to judge every one here because of one bad Hub from one guy. I prefer to think the best of people even if they are not perfect. Point out even one Hub from RU students that is in the spirit of hostility!
As for Mike Klingler, he deserves nothing less than praise and admiration! He is a true leader of which I must say we need more of in this country and in this world! You probably could take lessons from him! He has never been negative and gives beyond compare! We are being taught that work ethic at the RU. Does it happen overnight? Absolutely not! Practice makes perfect!
Because I consider myself a life long student I do not consider RU to be the end all, be all, in my education of learning Internet marketing. In fact, I am currently learning copywriting among other things from another resource. I just figure I will never have arrived!
There is alot of content on Hub Pages that I have no interest in. I simply don't read it and move on! I simply don't want to waste my time! On the other hand, I am glad that we still have the freedom to speak and write about what is important to us.
I believe that you will receive what you give. Maybe a little compassion and patience would better serve you in the long run!
@ dthomsen
This whole thing started when I was lookng at new hubs, and saw about 10 posted in a few minutes, along the lines of Make money with RU.
I had a look, and they were all short, pasted extracts with links to RU
A similar thing happened a couple of days later, from a different hubber.
When I searched for "Renegade University", pretty well all of the hubs I looked at were of the same format - some with about 20 links to RU.
Hence this hub.So - I wish Mike well with the solution to his dilemma.
And if you are learning copywriting, probably the best free resource that is available is the newsletters of the late Gary Halbert.
http://www.thegaryhalbertletter.com/
His language gets a bit salty at times, but there's a wealth of leartning there.
Wow. I guess it's important to understand that even with the best of intentions you are bound to offend somebody! I have been warmly accepted and greeted by the hubpages community and have made many friends here.
I have 2 hubs explaining what attraction marketing is, 1 on how understanding your target market dictates your marketing approach (using my daughter and her music career as an example), 1 article on effective teaching both in the school room and in the workplace, 1 article on article marketing which was in response to a hub request, and ONE article which explains how Renegade University can be helpful in learning how to promote a greeting card business. In light of this discussion, I may move the last article to a different site - maybe my website.
In my bio at the end of these articles, there is a link provided for people who wish to receive training with me at Renegade University. The information at the free university level is designed to help someone figure out whether this model of business is a good fit for them or not. If they are not sure, they can upgrade for 7 days for $1 and poke around all the tutorials offered so they know exactly what they would be getting before putting out any money. Along the way, they also have access to one on one help with their particular needs from their "guide" or support. Please don't take this as a pitch - I'm just trying to illustrate that what you get for free is a lot more than what you made it appear in your review.
You are getting a strong response from university members not because we've been out tons of money - we haven't - but because of the way Mike unselfishly gives of himself, his time and money to help us.
I'm learning more and more that this is the way many of the truly successful entrepreneurs conduct themselves. To overcome the impersonal nature of the internet, they realize you have to earn the trust and respect of your potential clients. They do this by providing value with no strings attached. It might be in the form of free training, free products, or great content articles. By giving so much from the start, they develop a loyal following.
Mike has taught me how to reach out and help other people. He's taught me how to lay the foundation for a strong business, ethically run. He's given me tools to teach other people so they aren't investing a ton of money they may or may not be able to afford just to get their business going (or mine).
So, you asked for results...I've been with the University for a little over three months. I created a blog (had no idea how to do that before) which brings me an average of 20 unique visitors a day, usually 3 or so sign up for the RSS feed. My content pages have been viewed about 4000 times in the past two months. My content ranks consistently on page 1 or 2 on Google in particular, although one of my more recent videos was at #5 on Yahoo out of 52 million entries. Some keywords are more competitive than others, but people are also starting to find me by simply googling my name.
People from all over the US, Australia, India, Canada, Europe are in regular touch with me. I recently attended a seminar I never would have known about without Mike which added several joint venture opportunities with established businesses who are interested in the ebook I will be publishing soon and I have several preorders for it.
When I call on a new customer I am warmly greeted because they were not only expecting the call, they had requested it. I give Mike Klingler credit for all of this progress along with my own drive and hard work -- and it is hard work.
Mike had already begun expressing concern about the way some of the newer members were over promoting - the university or other things. We received an email a while back explaining the importance of fitting in to a community like hubpages and learning the way to go about things to be sure value was being offered not just sales pitches.
So, as Mike would say, if you see a need, fill it. If you feel that people need to take a look at the way they are being perceived here at hubpages - help them out. Unfortunately, controversy kicks up more attention than simply being nice. But, believe it or not, most people are genuinely trying to do a good job and would welcome supportive, constructive advice from someone more experienced. Isn't that part of what makes this community so special?
What I see here being perpetrated by people who are biased against sales and marketing in general, in my opnion,is reaching conclusions based on a lack of information rather than an abundance of it.
I understand the criticism of unprofessional marketing. But to ascribe those behaviors to all 1100+ posts, and then to the entire concept of a RU is blatant bias. It loses the constructive criticism aspect and becomes nothing more than a smear campaign.
Then, Eric sort of admits some fault but turns right around and smears RU again with no factual or objective corroborating evidence and admits not spending any time at the site. Again, conclusions from a scarcity of information.
I hope that everyone who is interested in learning about internet marketing actually takes the time to see what's being offered out there. To those who are not interested in learning, who only look to tear down, I leave this quote with you in hopes it at least gives you a look at things from another perspective:
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, who knows the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the high achievement of triumph and who at worst, if he fails while daring greatly, knows his place shall never be with those timid and cold souls who know neither victory or defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
26th U.S. President
Hey, I understand that you have something against spam, and I'm sure there are a lot of spammers out there. You have the right to your own opinion, but if you haven't really studied in the Renegade University, your really just creating negative a feed on the people who have worked hard to create their own content. After spending some time at the Renegade, I found valuable information that would have taken me months to find if I was searching the web for it. If you really want to stop spamming, I believe you should create a hub that teaches people how not to spam, and create good content.
Uninvited Writer says:
12 months ago
Well said, we seem to be drowning in spam. And I consider it spam if it's something that my spam filter in my email would file in the spam folder.