Scriptures Inspired for the L. Ray Smith Followers
76I Beseech Born-Again, Spirit-Filled Brethren
God has burdened me with the L. Ray Smith followers, and if I be called to somehow share the truth with them, if it be possible to penetrate the spirit at work, I praise God with all my heart. This hub is to provide scripture inspired as the Spirit leads to shew these that THEY WILL NOT BE SAVED THROUGH FIRE AFTER DEATH.
The Lord doesn't concern Himself with whether or not these people BELIEVE in HELL. Those who do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his/her personal Lord and SAVIOR will indeed have their eyes opened on that Day. The LORD, our Lord is only concerned with the salvation of these who will receive it, and the TRUTH shall set them FREE, AMEN.
To first get a background on their belief system, please preface by reading my hub "REFUTE of SALVATION for ALL Doctrine" before you pray and ask the Spirit for guidance. This is going to be a HUB OF WARFARE, and those called to post I ask to keep with us, so I don't feel like David with Goliath!! I need my brothers and sisters in the Lord that are called to this purpose to love this group together (LOVE IS THE POWER OF GOD). AMEN. I will continue to update this hub with scriptures should the Lord continue to give them to me for them. I will not post every comment submitted; only those I feel are led of the Holy Spirit.
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, should you be led to add inspired scripture to the comments here to prove to these followers that there truly is no salvation through fire after death, please do so. The Lord's children, the saints stand united in Jesus' Name. Where two or more agree as touching any one thing, the Lord will do it. AMEN.
Inspired by the Holy Spirit for YOU
Let's look at what happens to the spirit of man when he dies:
Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 state "All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?"
Now, since you don't believe in ETERNAL, let's read just three passages that show us we live after physical death for eternity (forever, not just an age or ages):
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.… Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." (Matthew 17:1-9) I thought Moses and Elijah were DEAD?
1 Corinthians 15:52 "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." Imperishable means we will never decompose (die) ~ even in the Lake of Fire.
John 11:25-26 "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?'"
Jesus didn't come to judge the world, right?
John 12:47 "And if anyone hears My sayings, and does NOT keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" [Now, you might think there is no judgment and that ALL will be saved? Don't let the Devil stop you with just this verse....you must read on:]
John 12:48-49 "He who rejects Me, and does NOT receive my sayings, has ONE WHO JUDGES HIM; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak."
Acts 17:30-31 “"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man [Jesus] whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather FEAR HIM which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in HELL (geenna-Lake of Fire)." Now, since God is love, we are not to fear Him? Look up how many scriptures say to "fear God" as that of having respect. This scripture doesn't say our soul will be saved through geenna, but DESTROYED. He is an awesome God!
Romans 2:5-6 "But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to every man according to his deeds."
Matthew 25:41 ""Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Let's witness the judgments of the Father:
Isaiah 47:14-15 "Behold, they have become like stubble, Fire burns them; They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame; There will be no coal to warm by, Nor a fire to sit before! So have those become to you with whom you have labored, Who have trafficked with you from your youth; Each has wandered in his own way. There is none to save you.
Jer 6:29-30 "The bellows blow fiercely, the lead is consumed by the fire; In vain the refining goes on, But the wicked are not separated. They call them rejected silver, Because the LORD has rejected them.
Ezekiel 18:23-28 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "Rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed; for them he will die.
"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
"But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. 'Therefore, repent and live."
Let's now go back to the New Testament
John 17:9 "I ask on their behalf; I do NOT ask on behalf of the WORLD, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine."
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 “For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-- for our testimony to you was believed.”
2 Peter 2:6 and 9 "And if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly thereafter; then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment.
2 Peter 3:7 "But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
1 John 5:5 "And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he (YOU) who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."
Every Tongue Confess is NOT Salvation
Philippians 2:10-11 first states "that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
James 2:19 states "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."
Matthew 8:29 the demons named Legion confess, "And behold, they cried out, saying 'What do we have to do with You, Son of God?"
1 Corinthians 13:5 states that Love does not seek its own way. While it's God's desire that all should be saved, He will not force anyone to be saved through judgment or any other means. God is love and love does not force its own way.
Unless the Father Draws (Drags) Him?
John 6:44 states, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." Do you think the Father will NOT draw some? You are wrong, according to John 12:32: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Does this mean ALL will be saved? Some will reject His calling based on John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."
Obviously, those who hear the Word will be drawn unto Christ by the Spirit of God, for Ephesians 2:8 states "For by grace are you saved through faith". Since we know that faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Rom 10:17), and yet man can reject the Word of God (His sayings), that is a choice. Jesus said He draws ALL MEN to Himself. There is no excuse.
For those who have NEVER heard the Word of God, they are without sin, the Word says in John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin." Why do you think the Apostles and all believers are to go all throughout the world to spread the gospel? That is the Great Commission!
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Pathetic. He doesn't have followers. Give me a break. It's just a web site, and since you can't prove him wrong you falsely acuse him of being a cult. You need to read on his site "Ray answers Florida Bible College Professor" I would love to see you and Ray in a one on one conversation about anything. I know what would happen and I think you do too. You just won't admit it. It's called PRIDE. No one wants to be proven wrong, and not many people will admit to being wrong. It takes more of a person to admit they are wrong.
Actually, I did read that "answer" to the Florida Bible College Professor and found it completely twisted, as do they. That's why they actually utilize his teachings to teach others about FALSE PROPHETS. I've posted my hub, "Refute of Salvation for ALL Doctrine" and you are invited (your choice) to read it. My intention here is to provide scriptures to you who believe there is some purification lake of fire after an unbeliever dies. This is a matter of life and death for ages and ages and ages (how many ages do you want me to list....let's see, infinity) to come! That is the SIN; that is the ERROR. God loves all of you and so do we! We want you to receive SALVATION TODAY. You cannot overcome sin on your own, even after you're saved. Jesus becomes YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS because you become HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS to God through Him!! (2 Cor 5:21).
Hi Carrie, sorry it took so long for me to respond to your call. I had to go to L. Ray Smith's website to read his article. He clearly has it wrong, and this is why: In Matthew 3:11, which he cites, where John the Baptist says: "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire". The verb is used metaphorically in two distinct senses:
1. Of "baptism" by the Holy Spirit which took place on the day of Pentecost;
2. Of the calamity which would come upon the nation of the Jews, a "baptism" of FIRE of divine judgement for rejection of the will and word of God. Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16.
The reference he (L. Ray Smith) makes to Revelation 20:11-14, about the lake of fire is the second death, which the saints have no part in. Revelation 20:15 clearly says that "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".
So, not only is this taking place after the Church is gone out of the world, the Rapture, but it clearly says in verse 13 that this is a JUDGEMENT not a purification.
I hope this could be of some assistance to your courageous work.
God Bless
Whezo ~ Oh for the freshness of your spritual eyes and simplicity of what has been made such a complicated matter with these folks. As with the scriptures stated in this hub, that is exactly what the Spirit is saying. The fire is JUDGEMENT, not PURIFICATION. God bless you! The simplicity of the Lord!
The Lord bless your heart and fortify your spirit, sister, as you stand in the gap for these people.
Carrie,
Answer a Fool according to a Fool...
JL, I'm still believing God for your salvation. Greater is HE that is in me than he that is in the world, amen. Praise the Lord! JL, if you're ever drawn to an ice cold beer, why would you not thirst for righteousness, the living water of Jesus Christ? He's offering you water where you will NEVER thirst again! Why put yourself through judgment? You KNOW what His judgment is for those who call His children FOOLS. You know the scriptures, right? You know the consequences. Escape them, while you have time. No man is promised tomorrow. I do love you in the love of the LORD.
All of the Christians are believing that JL. We all wish for you to know peace from the Prince of Peace.
Only thing I have to say here is that no matter who is the best debater, no matter who thinks they know what, God is not mocked and He does indeed see the intent of the heart.
I would like to see Ray in a one on one with God. Job had a one on one with Him so why couldn't Ray do the same?
So many say they are called to preach against the church. Some are "called" to preach against preachers. hey do everything in their power to make everyone else look bad. Jezebel did the same thing and look what happened to her.
It is time to preach the gospel of Christ and let everything else alone.
If I should get rid of every bit of pride in me, would I then have pride in the fact that I got rid of it and be right back where I started? ~~~ SirDent
A person who tries to make everyone else look the fool becomes the fool in the eyes of all who know it. ~~~ SirDent
Thank you, SirDent for that awesome word. My prayer is that Mr. Smith will renounce the lies and twisting of the scripture and confess of the sin of misleading so many before he dies. For this will be the confession that Jesus Christ is Lord, not him. Hell-No, I've never seen so much love come from one man for another. This is a form of idol worship, for you place Him above your very God who sent His truth, even to you, and yet you reject His truth and embrace the coiled serpent's twisting of the truth instead. You can have your eyes opened, if you have just the faith of a mustard seed!
I think there are some (and I'm praying they will read and will know in their hearts) that are actually restentful toward God because they perceive He doesn't find them worthy enough to save them now. This is a lie. Isaiah 49:8: "for He says, 'AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU', behold now is 'THE ACCEPTABLE TIME'".
John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends, if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you." Indeed, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, but He laid down His life for all of us. We love because He first loved us.
Ray is not laying his life down for you, and even if he did, it wouldn't save you. His suffering is not even close to the mocking and pain Jesus suffered on the cross for (y)our sin. AMEN.
One more thing I must point out here. Satan uses scripture to teach also, yet Jesus said Satan is a liar and the truth is not in him.
Nothing more left to be said here.
Carrie, I enjoy reading these hubs of yours because it's clear that God is doing some mighty works here, using you and your false doctrines to lead others to truthful study and Scriptures. When your done playing with childish things, and ready to learn to truths about God's Word, come see me, God willing.
I rejoice in your persecution. Thanks for promoting Ray's site where others can go God willing, and learn the truths about proper study and The Good News... not your pagan man-made doctrines. Your outright lies and twistings of the Scriptures will be clear to those that God has given clear vision to.
You might want to pray that God gives you a humble heart cause that pride of yours is starting to smell of rot.
Now, regarding the serpent in the Garden of Eden: Ray takes the meaning of the curse to the serpent as "dust you shall eat" as eating man because man was made from the dust. This is taking a literal curse and making it a spiritual one.
How do we know the serpent was really a snake? Well, look up the definition of serpent all throughout the book of Genesis 3. It is Hebrew 5175 nachash (naw-khawsh');a snake (from its hiss):-serpent.
Obviously, the serpent had limbs when God created it, because in Gen 3:14, God's curse to the serpent (snake) is, "on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life". We know the earth is dust. We know snakes are indeed without limbs (literally, on their bellies).
So why is this a literal curse? Because Adam and Eve were literal people, too. Adam and Eve received literal curses that are real. In verse 16, Eve was cursed with multiplied pain in childbirth and, while her desire will be for her husband, he shall rule over her (God made man the head of the woman and Christ the head of the man). Adam's curse is shown in verse 17-19, "Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground..."
It seems it finally happened Dan. Your true colors are shining through. Not one time have I read where you tried to teach or spread the gospel of Christ.
I recall that God told Samuel, "Do not weep for Saul, for I have rejected him." God hates certain things also. Read about them in Proverbs.
jacobbsladdr says:7 hours ago I rejoice in your persecution.
SirDent says right now: Why would you rejoice in the persecution of anyone? Do you rejoice in your own persecution?
It seems to me that Carrie is stronger than many of you think. She certainly isn't a pushover and it is not because of her own self. It is the Holy Ghost which strengthens her. Leave her alone and let her be.
Jezebel did everything she could to destroy Elijah. She had 450 prophets come up against him. She prophesised that he would be killed and the dogs would eat his flesh. It is funny how things get turned around. When you wish and prohesy evil upon one of God's children, the same evil you prophesy will come upon you.
Carrie, I truly believe your heart is good. We are called to spread the gospel. God will take care of them once they believe.
Thank you for standing for me and with me, SirDent. Truly our flesh wants to run from the enemy's attacks, yet as David stood before Goliath, we do not have the Spirit of fear. Battle is ugly, and has been made manifest here and elsewhere. JL went so far as to attack the fact I was on anti-depressants to every one of my hubs refuting their false doctrine. How hateful a person. I told JL the greatest gift we are given by the Holy Spirit is love, meaning compassion. I thank God I no longer take anti-depressants, but it is that I fell to the weakness of the enemy's attacks in my own personal life. It is overwhelming. Praise God, He delivers us from bondage. Thank you for your compassion, protection and love because the Fruit of the Spirit is evident in you, SirDent.
Carrie, I understand God in this fashion. Our children do stupid things sometimes.It is natural after all. When they do something that should embarrass us, do we turn pour backs on them? If they end up causing a lot of trouble, do we turn our backs on them? NO!!! We may not approve of something they did, but we still love them and will take care of them. Gods is the same way. He will always take care of His children and will send encouraging help when needed.
Now some children who are not mine, I will not back up like mine. Some are children of Satan and God will not treat them as He does His own children.
I hope this is clear to you. May the Lord bless you abundantly above all that you can contain that it spills over onto others around you.
I receive that blessing, in Jesus' Name, SirDent. And when you bless others, you yourself are blessed even more! Praise God!
The very idea that all will be saved is utterly ridiculous. Wishful thinking at best; though it could be something far worse. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. You did a fine job refuting this false doctrine. Bully for you! And God Bless You!
Praise God, James. It's wonderful to see you share in the ministry to those who may be straddling the fence or may have hope of "coming out of her". We stand united in this purpose!
and i thought God is love and love never fails. wishing thinking i guess
t rafeiro, Did you know that love has different meanings? You might go to Judah's Daughter's profile (the link is on this profile page) and read up on the love of God. The hub you'll be looking for is "HATED On Account of My Name". God does not love the world like He loves His children, and for us to love the world with that love is "hostility toward God". A lot to take in, but the truth will keep us on the straight path, rather than the crooked one of the serpent (crooked as in coils). God bless you.
Philo and agape love. Philo is the stronger love that people have for those close. I haven't studied the usuage of how God uses love on all (whether philo or agape) but He does love all. To say otherwise is heresy. But what's new?
Hell-No. Philo is not the stronger of the two. Agape love is only that with God and the brethren (believers) and is the strongest love (meaning attachment, friendship, to kiss). Jesus said there is no greater love than one who lays down his life for his "friends" (John 15:13). On the other hand, he says "friendship with the world (the lost world) is hostility toward God" (James 4:4).
Philadelphia (brotherly love) is that of brothers and brethren (believers). The love God has for the world and the love believers are to have for the world is agapao (moral, principled, social sense). I put the link here to the hub that breaks it down for both of you. http://hubpages.com/hub/HATED-on-Account-of-My-Nam
My heart still thinks of you often.
Dear fellow siner
It seems you have missed the point about judgment. Don't worry though because your eyes will be opened in future!God's mercy never ends and mercy will always rejoice over judgment.
Patrick, if you can't read this hub and have obvious understanding, not only have you been blinded to spiritual things, but also don't appear literate. A blind person can easily call someone else blind, because you claim to see? I am so burdened for you and those who follow this doctrine of darkness. For you to call the light dark exposes your root, for you try to blow out the light that shines on you!
Yes, I'm a sinner, for to say otherwise means the Truth is not in me. However, I'm a forgiven sinner. If you haven't accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are under the Law of sin and death because God still sees you as a sinner, not covered by His blood.
where did abrahams faith come from since he came before the writen word. Jesus said it plainly enough, you did not choose me but I choose you. Also is judas in this hell of yours or is he in heaven? Before you answer this Rev. says that on the foundation of the new city is writen the names of the twelve apostles. why would God put the name of a person who supposedly is responsible for Jesus's death on the holy city. Also it would do you good to look up the definition of judgement before saying it is different from correction. Jesus's was commisioned by the Father to be the saviour of not only you but the entire world. I think your problem is not with L. Ray Smith but with Gods word. Please read 2Cor.3:14 ,4:4. God loves us all! I pray that it be Gods will for your life while your on this earth that you understand the good news! With love, Thaddeus Cole
for God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 1Tim.2:4,5 is this scrpture a lie or the truth. With love, Thaddeus Cole. P.S. Were we believers before Jesus made His sacrifice? He instructs us to be like Him, should our love be different from His?
Thad, to answer your first comment, Judas was replaced in Acts 1:26 "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Notice it states "with the eleven apostles". Also, if you read the context when Jesus said "You did not choose Me, but I chose you", He is speaking to the twelve apostles. He chose them to be His apostles. I have another hub called "Refute of Salvation for All Doctrine" that will clearly and scripturally answer your questions.
2 Cor 3:14 states the veil is REMOVED IN CHRIST.
2 Cor 4:4 states the minds of the UNBELIEVING is blind.
This takes us then to John 3:16 "whoever BELIEVES shall not perish"
1 Tim 2:4-5 states that God desires all to be saved, and how is that? Coming to the knowledge of the truth. That salvation comes through the one Mediator between God and Man, and that is by believing (entrusting one's spiritual well-being to) in Christ Jesus.
Regarding God so loved the world...the Greek word for love is "agapao" (social, moral and principled love). Those who receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior enter in to His "agape" love, which is FRIENDSHIP, attachment, to kiss.
Now, if Jesus already saved the whole world, you cannot explain James 4:4 "know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."
Again, please read the other hub "Refute of Salvation for All", as it will give you more to think about. I pray God open your eyes ~ just pray and ask that He do so, and because it's His will for you to be filled with the Holy Spirit who will guide you into all truth, if you are truly seeking, He will do it.
1Tim.4:10 please explain this little scripture for me, and please make it understandable. Also you might want to look up the word HELL in the old english, which is what the KJV. was translated into to begin with. Study to show thyself approved! with LOVE, Thaddeus Cole
Regarding 1 Tim 4:10, it only confirms what is shown in the following scriptures:
Hosea 13:4 "Yet I have been the LORD (Yehovah) your God (Elohiym) since the land of Egypt; and you were not to know any god except Me, for there is no savior besides Me."
Acts 4:12: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" [speaking of Jesus].
We must be saved, and that would not be a requirement, if all are saved.
Regarding Hell, I have a hub on my other profile of Judah's Daughter I invite you to read: http://hubpages.com/hub/HELL-Sheowl--Hades--Tartar
As far as study? I do! I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone WHO BELIEVES (Romans 1:16). Amen :-) God be with you.
First off you did not answer the first question. Second, if He choose the twelve then by nessity he chooses all. third, was Paul an apostle, how about titus and all those after! Jesus said, I chose you the twelve and one of you is a devil. these are the ones JESUS chose. Judas died thats the reason there was only 11 at the time you refer to. You said it yourself, He chose these 12 to be His apostles, did He mess up! You refer to Jam.4:4 as your proof that all aren't saved. Do you actually believe he is talking about the peoples of this world or the lusts there of? Forthly 2Cor. you state that in Christ the veil is removed, and the minds of the unbelieving, if you don't believe what the scripture says of Christ then you are unbelieving. God says to love and pray for your enemies! Do we expect less of our Father who is perfect! Fifth, 1 Tim2:4-5 will Gods desires not be fulfilled or does he just wish that it could be so? I do know that the only salvation we have is through Christ! Thats as plain as the rest of what I have been talking about, but what does that have to do with the salvation of all? Where does the SCRIPTURES say conversion has to come before our bodies die? If that were so it would be in scripture, would it not? Also when Jesus asked Peter who he thought He was, Jesus said blessed are you for flesh and blood did not revell this, but our Father in heaven. In laymans terms: you did not know this of your own intelligents but God allowed him this knowledge. God is soverein in all things not just what our pride thinks He is! To say that God gave up His son for people who he only loved socially is behond me. God is drawing all men and women to Him and that is Gods truth! To say that you choose Jesus because it was availible is an insult to God Who works ALLTHINGS according to the council of HIS WILL. God has ordered your steps not you. If you attained something then why do you boast as though you didn't? You want me to read a hub but I pray you read scripture! I do love all people! Once I didn't, I guess that makes me a enemy of God right?
John 17:9 Jesus said, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;"
Luke 13:23-28 “And someone said to Him, ‘Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?’ And He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But He will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' But He will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from Me, all you evildoers!' There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.”
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."
Truly, I've addressed ALL your statements. I've been conversing and reasoning with your doctrine for months and have answered your claims in several hubs. I really don't wish to write hub comments, when hubs are already here for you to read.
Know one said that Jesus was not the only way to salvation! God unlike man knows the beging to the end! That is how he can say that Jesus is the saviour of all men TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME! We ourselves are ignorant of the end, except for the knowledge God gives through His Word and His spirit. God one great day will be ALL in ALL. Just as All are guilty in Adam, so shall all be saved through Christ! God unlike man knows the hearts of every man, we do not. Who pray tell will we reign and teach when Jesus returns for the second time. Mans heart is FULL of pride and God and only God can rid us of it. I wish you well and may what you teach glorify God! A servant of Christ Thaddeus Cole through Gods will and not my own. P.S. I wish your answers to my questions were more to the point of the question, but I figured as much. God bless you and even though I believe by your stance on salvation you are very carnal does not mean I don't love you like a sister. One day we both will stand side by side with our saviour Jesus! Untill that day I bid you good-bye!
Thad, you said, "Just as All are guilty in Adam, so shall all be saved through Christ!" This is a false statement and is NOT in the Bible. Please read the hub I recommended. Some of those who believe as you do are quoted in that hub and those questions are specifically addressed. God bless you also, and I pray you have given your heart to Jesus Christ, or that you have answered His "call". Amen.
God has given Jesus ALL things, some things we can't see as yet. That is what faith is! Just because I haven't seen Jesus ressurected does not mean it is so. When will Abraham confess Jesus as being Gods only begotten Son and believe in Him as the sacrifice for his sin since he is sleeping with his fathers untill Jesus returns. I feel your frustration I to have been in your shoes for many years. with love again Thaddeus Cole
Thad, James 2:19 states, "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." Why would they shudder if even they will be saved? They confessed who Jesus was, even Legion (Mark 5:7). Jesus has all authority over heaven and hell. Not all will be saved. He said so Himself. We are not saved through fire, even after death, but are saved by the blood of the Lamb, which has already been shed for us, and we must submit our will to His by our own choice. Adam and Eve had a choice; that is why they fell. Why? Because God gave THEM authority. They gave that authority to Satan, who still has the power over unbelievers. Jesus took the authority back when He died on the cross, and we must submit to His authority by asking Him into our hearts, asking Him to fill us with His Spirit, and we will know we are saved.
Luke 11:13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
James 4:2 "yet ye have not, because ye ask not."
John 16:24 "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full."
why did you not post my last comment? did I say something to offend you and yes it is in the bible! 1Cor15:22 says so! What are the wages of sin but death, or do you know of a nother! In Christ all are made alive each in his own turn! If that is not salvation then what is? Jesus died for all men, especially for those who believe now not exclusivly. You call it my doctrine! Then what is it you teach? Seeing that eternal is not in the original manuscripts or forever and ever! Sounds as though there is an ever after forever like in kids books. I'm stund to hear that! I will shake the dust from my feet on this one. with love for you. Do you not read that every knee shall bow, and every tonge acclaim Jesus is lord to the glory of God the Father. Then he will throw them in the lake of fire eternally. Doesn' sound like a doctrine our loving Father would have given the trates of God writen in His word
First of all, that was a slip, and not intentional. Obviously, I replied to you. Jesus died for all, but it is for naught to those who do not believe. The Bible doesn't say "especially for those who believe", it says "to all who believe".
If you look up the actual Hebrew and Greek definitions of everlasting and eternal:
According to scripture, souls live eternally. They are either eternally in life or eternally condemned.
Daniel 12:2 (Old Testament) states, "Many of those who sleep [die] in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
Matthew 25:46 (New Testament) states, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The word "everlasting" is the Hebrew word "olam" meaning concealed, the vanishing point, time out of mind, eternity; always; continuance, eternal, everlasting.
The word "eternal" is the Greek word "aionios" perpetual:-eternal, forever, everlasting.
Both heaven and hell is everlasting, neverending, without end. Our souls will dwell in one place or the other after physical death and bodily resurrection. Amen.
did those same demons believe Jesus as their LORD and only saviour. Stan has no power over anything, God is soviern. He is over all things. Why do you give him credit for anything. God says I created evil and good. The devil had to get promission from God to do what he did to Job! Jesus said you have NO power over me but what the Father has given you. Why does God let the devil do what he does? Because He already knows the outcome. God did not go to plan B.He has a perfect plan A. Do you even know what the old english meaning of hell is? why is hell thrown into the lake of fire along with death? why did the old english people put their potatos in hell. Give me a brake,you know the words of scripture but your understanding of them is far from being correct! I know you want post all of what I write and that is sad but it is true. Just like your answers to the questions I've asked, they answer none of them. Your tring to side step the real question. Just like you said about not being in the bible, you knew full well it was in there. you did not even post the one comment i made. How sad coming from someone who claims to be a teacher of Gods.I still do love you though Thaddeus Cole
You said, "The devil had to get promission from God", well he has to ASK. So do WE. For, until we ask God to save us, we are still under the "fatherhood" of Satan. You have lowered yourself to hostility. Hell has different meanings, it means grave (death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire), and in Old English (which the Bible does not use in its original languages), people used to refer to potato celars as hell (based on the fact that Hell is a pit, but a bottomless one).
The KJV was translated into old english. A quick search on the computer can lay that point to rest. You said the devil is in control of the unsaved how can that be. The devil does tempt us but in control, I think not. Only God is in control of anything. Hell is pit with out a bottom plus it is thrown into the lake of fire. I thought you said you either went to heaven or hell for eternity now then hell is trown there,so where do we actually spend eternity hell or the lake of fire. You say that a SOUL is eternal. Do you know that God took a body breathed His spirit into it and it became a living soul. When you die your spirit gos back to God who gave it and that living soul dies. It is not alive in some other location it is dead untill God resurrects it from where? The dead! You have no knowledge in death or preception if you would have it. Imortallity has been given to Jesus only at this time and age. No one is in heaven know but Him. Where I go you cannot follow but I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am so shall you be also. Like I said before, you have lack in understanding Gods truths but that is not your fault. As you said all you have to do is ask. By the way did Jesus not ask God to let this cup pass over me? The very next words out of his mouth is, but let not My will be done but yours. until another day, may God bless all. To the glory of God the Father. In love Thaddeus Cole
First of all, The KJV is translated from the original Hebrew and Greek text into all kinds of languages. Old English, Chinese, Italian, Philippino....etc. etc. etc. All must go back to the original languages of the original text to rightly divide the Word of Truth.
In 2 Cor 4:4, the "god of this world" is Satan. Adam and Eve gave him their domain. It is he who blinds the minds of the unbelieving. John 8:44 states, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father." So, we're either children of God, or children of the devil. God does not FORCE anyone unto salvation, but calls them, woo's them. It is the choice of the child of the devil to repent and run to Him, giving Him control by the power of His Spirit within us.
Jesus could have been delivered from the cross, but He, as we do, submit to the will of the Father. If He had never died, we would have no Savior.
You may not believe the soul is with the Lord (or in Sheowl/Hades) after death, but Paul stated that we are "absent from the body and present with the Lord." If the body stays with the soul, we would not ever be absent from the body. If the spirit that ascends to God is His spirit and not ours, "we" cannot be present with the Lord while "absent" from the body. (2 Cor 5:8)
A soul goes either to Sheowl/Hades (Hebrew/Greek) or to Paradise, the third heaven, as Paul called it, upon physical death (2 Cor 12:2). The thief on the cross was told by Jesus that he would be with him in Paradise that day. (Luke 23:43)
The Lake of Fire is AFTER the millennial reign of Christ, and all who are in Sheowl/Hades/Tartaroo (hell), and all bodies in the the graves (hell) and in the oceans who have never believed will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Geenna/Hell).
Likewise, the New Heaven and New Earth are AFTER the millennial reign of Christ, and all who are in Paradise, and all bodies in the the graves (hell) and in the oceans who have believed will enter into the New Heaven and New Earth.
You are invited to read my hub on Hell, once again. Also, I have hubs on Judah's Daughter called "Beyond Death: What the Bible Says" and "Our Heavenly Home".
So what is the Lake of Fire and what happens to people in it? I want to really know what you think happens to these people for eternity.
You already know what my study results showed, and it is only what the Bible states clearly. You already read my hub on Hell, Hell-No, so there is no further answer for you, as you want to have your "ears tickled". The Bible states they "have no rest day or night", and "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever". While you believe forever and ever to be an age or ages, you are mistaken...missing the mark. The rich man in hades was not told he would one day be delivered from the flames...that's not in the Bible anywhere. I pray you will ASK the Lord to take authority in your life and that you receive Him by faith and ASK Him to fill you with His Holy Spirit...knowing then, you are saved. I'm sorry you simply don't believe this teaching. Follow what you will ~ one is a doctrine of life and the other is death.
OK, so what's the brimstone for?
Makes me wonder if hell isn't some sort of volcanic fire, since brimstone is associated with volcanic fire. It would look like a lake, would it not? Lava is obviously underground and comes up from the depths of the earth. Just my thoughts. I've never been to hell, so I really can't tell you more than what the Bible says. However, in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, fire and brimstone came from heaven. Written as inspired by God, considering no one saw the fire come from heaven, except Lot's wife...and we know what happened to her when she looked back.
"Brimstone is yellow, elemental sulfur, which burns with a very very hot blue flame that you can only just see, to give the highly unpleasantly pungent gas, sulfur dioxide. Brimstone is frequently found round volcanic vents."
so jesus went to paridise the day he died? The sign that jesus gave them was that he would be in the heart of the earth 3 days, not in paridise. Healso told God, I commit my spirit to you and then died. Also brimstone is used in purification of metals! You said it sounds like a volcano. Do you remember telling me that hell is the grave. How can that be the lake of fire also? God ressurects all the dead small and great. Hell and the grave give up thoce who are in them. Does God put them back in and then throw hell back in. Your body after resurrection is a spiritual body not a physical one. How can literal fire hurt a spiritual body? It doesn't! The fire it self is also spiritual. God Himself is the spiritual fire that consumes. Rev. is a book of symbols. I'm glad you spoke of sodom and gomorrah. God's word said it would be more better for them in the day of judgement than others! does this mean they will only stay a billion years or is the tempature turned down a little for them. The scriptures as given by God in their orginal form do not contridict themselves. Do you know what contridiction is? Go up to about 2 or 3 comments and see were you do it. With love,Thaddeus Cole
So you believe satan to be a God? Do you understand what you are saying because you clearly don't understand what God says. Just because this world is evil just as satan is does not make him a god. There is one God and One mediator between God and man. Sounds like only one God to me, unless you lack understanding spiritually and in figuritive language. Sorry if it seems I'm being hostle, I'm not. You said that if the soul stays with the body, the soul is the body once you add the life giving spirit of God. read Gen. God made man in 2 stages, He formed him from the dust of the earth, then he breathed the spirit of life into him! This made Adam not just a lump of clay anymore but a living soul. He did not put a soul in him. The very fact that He gave him the spirit of life made man a living soul.With love, Thaddeus Cole
Interesting that you haven't answered how brimstone contribues to the torture of sinners. It does not make fire any hotter. What's most interesting is that you fail to realize that sulphur has been used for thousands of years to purify for religious ceremonies. It's even been used in medicines. Perhaps God knew about all of this before it was ever used to make pills for WW2 soldiers. Now, your volcano example doesn't surprise me. I know that you lend credence to the ridiculous notion that hell is inside of the Earth. So the Lake of Fire is not literal fire at all. It's literal magma and god couldn't tell the difference. Guess he shoulda hung around volcanic erruptions to see what happens when lava cools and compare it to what happens when fire cools.
But now I am clear that you think the Lake of Fire is for the soul purpose of torture. Oh yes, and since you didn't answer what the people in the LOF are or will be doing, I imagine you'll say, "why, they are weeping and nashing teeth" (or you can correct me on that). But Carrie, what do you really think they will be doing? Perhaps a lot of screaming? Forget asking for a drop of water. They're on fire aren't they? We want to know what you really think is physically happening in the Lake of Fire.
Also if we are in the lake of fire for eternity would we not to have had been there from the begining or do we just pick when eternity should start?
Also 1Tim. 4:10 does say especially those who believe! With love,Thaddeus Cole
Thad, Jesus is God. God is Spirit and is omnipresent. He can be everywhere at one time. The thief on the cross was in the very presence of God in Paradise, that day, the day he died. The Bible states that Jesus, while His body was in the tomb, descended into the lower parts of the earth and proclaimed victory to the spirits in prison. If you study the meanings of hell, you will know those spirits in prison are in Tartaroo, the deepest abyss of Hades (hell). This is described in my hub, "Beyond Death: What the Bible Says" (Judah's Daughter). This is a picture of the soul leaving the dead body, and yet returning to the body when it is resurrected as an incorruptible body. The same will happen for us. As I said, if the soul stays with the body until resurrection, we would NEVER be absent from the body, as the Apostle Paul stated. Bodies will be resurrected at the rapture/the beginning of the millennial reign (believers) and the end of the millennial reign (unbelievers).
While you wish to focus on brimstone and purification, it is as described above as being present in volcanic eruptions. Fiery lava kills everything in its path and no grass ever grows where lava has destroyed. Just look at "Craters of the Moon" in Idaho. This is what is stated about that area: "An area of about 60 miles in diameter, where nothing meets the eye but a desolate and awful waste, where no grass grows nor water runs, and where nothing is to be seen but lava."
Since you refuse to read my hub on Hell, there are four meanings for hell in the Bible, I will summarize them here:
Sheowl/Hades (where the rich man went) Luke 16:23.
Tartaroo (the deepest abyss of hades where the angels who sinned in the day of noah are incarcerated) 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6
Geenna (the Lake of Fire, the final judgment of all evil and unbelieving) Rev 20:14 (translated "death and Hades" were thrown into the Lake of Fire).
Let's look at Matthew 10:14 in context, "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." That does not mean one is purified ~ I don't know how you can assume such.
You don't need to spew accusations at me about Bible contradictions. I have not contradicted myself. You puzzle-piece your scripture into what you wish to believe. You have a guide, just like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do. Their doctrine makes all the sense in the world to them, too. I am sorry we cannot see "eye to eye" ~ any more than God and Satan see eye to eye.
Thad, first of all, Satan is called the "god of the world". False gods are never capitalized in the Bible. There are many scriptures that confirm this. Satan tells Jesus in Matthew 4:8-9 "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 'All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me.'"
Now, let's read about the spirit breathed into Adam in Genesis 2:7 and compare it with 1 Cor 15:45:
Gen 2:7 (KJV) "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
1 Cor 15:45 (KJV) "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
Likewise, Matthew 10:28 states that God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Lake of Fire: Geenna).
Hell No, I've already adressed brimstone with Thad. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone. Brimstone is sulpher and found inside the earth, not in outer space. This is why many believe hell is inside the earth. Jesus speaks of the New Heaven and New Earth to come, so heaven or hell is not somewhere in outer space. The Bible says that in Hades, the rich man wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue and was in torment in the flames. The Bible says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in the Lake of Fire. Since souls and bodies are spiritual after death and resurrection, they will not die, but be in torment, as the Bible says. Again, the rich man was not told he would be delivered from Hades upon the resurrection of Jesus Christ or at any other time. Jesus either lied about the rich man in Hades, or He spoke the truth. I believe He spoke the truth.
Thad, the Lake of Fire judgment happens at the Judgment Seat of Christ, after His millennial reign. Death (bodies from the grave and the sea) and Hades (souls who have been there since physical death) will be cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity ~ that is the time it begins, and it will never end.
Thad, 1 Timothy 4:10 (you are correct), however, Jesus died for the entire world to be their Savior. Those who believe are saved, and those who do not have hope to believe until the day they die. In other words, the gift of salvation is for all who believe, and doesn't mean He is not the Savior of those who have yet to believe. Their sin has been paid for, but they must accept this truth and believe it. Reading with this understanding, we will show this scripture here:
1 Tim 4:10 "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
You cannot find any other verse to support your interpretation of this, especially one stating "especially those who believe". I'm not going to get into the rhetoric of "desires all men to be saved, etc." I have addressed these in my hubs, which you obviously are not reading. I've labored many months to address you and those who believe as you do ~ if you want me to re-state EVERYTHING here, that's not going to happen. You must take some respectful responsibility to read the research, if you care to be challenged. If you wish to stay in the belief you have, then there's no need to try to sway my faith, as I will not be moved.
I never said that hell was in outer space. I've already shown several times that hell is a mistranslation and the doctrine is absurd. So in other words, it doesn't exist. You keep talking about the rich man in hell as if that parable is talking about one person. That parable is talking about the entire Jewish nation under the headship of Judah. Perhaps it can be refering to the Great white Throne Judgment for gentiles, but it is most definately refering to the 2000 year old plight of the Jewish nation. I wrote a hub showing this specificaly. It's a fair summary of what Ray Smith wrote but don't let that interfere with your reading it and learning something. Again, a drop of water? Please!! Have you no spiritual recognition? Gnashing of teeth? Not the best description of being on fire if you ask me. I bet you couldn't hold your finger in a flame for 3 seconds without screaming. And you think one on fire would request a drop of water? I also noticed your spiritual belch when you said that the people in the graves and the oceans that never believed will be cast into the LOF. . . . . . .The oceans? Have that many people been lost at sea that the seas is refering to oceans in Revelation? And so we learn that all who have not believed will be burned with searing heat for all eternity. Oh those poor Bushmen of that African desert that I can't spell. And the Aboriganies, and those who never questioned their parent's beliefs. The doctrine of hell reaches the very depths of insanity.
Hell No, You think Lazarus was not a Jew? Jesus is called the Lion of Judah, so how dare you say that the Jewish nation under Judah goes to hell! That is Satanic, if I've ever heard such a thing! Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham, the father Isaac, the father of Jacob, the father of Judah! Jews are God's chosen ones. Truly, Gentiles (wild olive tree) are grafted into the Jews (cultivated olive tree), and only those who receive their Savior, the Messiah to the Jews, are saved.
All of Jesus' parables speak the truth. In fact, some do not think the account of the rich man in Hades is a parable, because, when parables were written, the Bible prefaces the story as a "parable" 57 times. This account was not prefaced as such.
When you speak of touching a flame (in the flesh), of course it would be hot and our flesh would get burned. Spiritual bodies, on the other hand, are not flesh. If "no flesh and blood inherits the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 5:15), then no flesh and blood enters hell either. We become spirit after death ~ incorruptible ~ meaning, there is no physical death. The "second death" is an everlasting death, because death means corruption to the body. Incorruptible means no corruptible death.
The word "sea" does not always mean people, as in the case of Moses parting the Red Sea. You should know better. Just like the word Hell does not always mean grave.
Revelation 20:13-15 is literal "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." You mean, not everyone's name is written in the Book of Life? Obviously, not all are saved. The rich man couldn't get out of Hades, any more than one is promised to get out of Geenna.
Check out the next verse (Rev 13:16), which confirms that "sea" doesn't always mean people: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea." That would be water, Mr. HN. Otherwise, the new earth is empty.
Again, if you think that section in Revelation is talking about the oceans, you have the spiritual recognition of a fetus. It's funny actually that you said that. What isn't funny is how you twist what I say. First I never said that anybody was going to your hell. What I said, is the Jewish people in general have lost out on the gifts promised to them by God because they haven't payed close enough attention to realize that the Messiah has indeed come.
The rich man was dressed in purple which denotes royalty. Judah was to carry the royal line in Israel.
And cambric: Symbolic of the clothing priests wore. Judah had both the Scepter and the Priesthood.
. . . .child, be reminded. ..
Judah was of the line of Abraham. The rich man speaks of 5 brothers. Judah had 5 brothers through his mother Leah. The entire sequence is speaking of the general Jewish population, who until about 60 years ago, had no home land, have been persecuted greatly, and still are clueless as to who their savior is.
As for Lazarus? He is said to be in Abraham's bosom showing a very close emotional relationship. Abram had promised all of his possessions to be inherited by his faithful steward Eliezer. But this promise was taken away once Isaac was born. Eliezer remained faithful and even found a wife for Isaac. And guess what Carrie, Eliezer was a gentile. Gentiles were refered to as dogs by the Jews of that time. Eliezer is a representation of Lazarus. In that parable, Lazrus is a representation of gentiles. No, not all gentiles. Only those gentiles who remaine faithful in adverse situations. And Abraham's bosom is not the Christian heaven. Nor is it the coming salvation of the faithful. It represents comfort for those who are stuggling in this life but have the assurance of the rewards to come. Some have this genuine comfort (I'm not talking about the false beliefs of this world). But the rich man is speaking of those who had much either in life or in their early Jewish heritage. This is thoroughly explained in my hub about the rich man and Lazarus. And no, the rich man hasn't been given any assurance of getting out of that condition. But he will be judged and shown the truths in time and will receive all of the gifts once Christ is ready to present them.
Oh, once more, to answer your first question. No, Lazarus was not a Jew.
You need to do alot of studing on two words, hell and eternity. That would clear alot of this up. If it is a spiritual body then flames want never hurt it since it would have no nervice system. What is the flame and heat for, light or warmth. Every lair Will have their part in the lake of fire right. Jesus did for the pentilty of sin which is death. The carnal thinking of man has to be destroyed after Jesus brings us back to life. Have you ever told a lie carrie? You will say yes, Jesus paid the price for me! He did pay the pentilty for sin which is death! When made alive again what or who will rid us of the carnal thoughts that made us lie in the first place. You said that jesus is God! thats how he went to paradise. No my dear Jesus is the Son of God! That is part of the faith that saves us from death! The more you are confronted with the truth the more you throw in untruths. There is ONE GOD and ONE MEDIATOR between God and man, JESUS!Just because me and my son look alike, think alike, act alike does not make him me. He is my son and always will be. Just because people believe in pagon gods does not make them so. Jesus hands over the kingdom to His Father so that all will be all in God. Why is that if both are God or is that just a play on words. I guess God hands the kingdom over to Himself, even thuogh it is Him who already has it. You say your doctrin is one of life and mine is one of death.Funny how yours has trillions tortured for ever because the devil was to strong. While the one I believe has all men repentant and living under Gods love for the eons.Now which one was death and which was life again? I feel so sad for you but for a reason God has blinded you and I know one day the truth will be taught to you and you to will repent and believe in Christ as LORD. With love Thaddeus Cole
Hell-No, to assume that Lazarus is representative of Gentiles is ludicrous. Martha and Mary had a brother named Lazarus and all of them were Jewish. Of course, it was not their brother Jesus was talking about (as Jesus raised him from the dead).
The story is about rich and poor, and the attitude of the rich man toward the poor beggar. Even in Hades, the rich man wanted to send Lazarus to his five brothers (let's order the poor guy around to serve the rich guy). This has nothing to do with pointing a finger at Judah. It really doesn't matter what tribe the rich man came from, or Lazarus for that matter. You're missing the point. You are stating something that simply is not specific in the Bible; thus, you are assuming.
Abraham was the "father" of all the Jewish nations, and was the great-great grandfather of Judah. Does your grandfather call you "son"? If he does, it's not literal, now is it? Just because the dogs came to lick the sores on Lazarus, doesn't mean Lazarus was a "dog" himself or a Gentile. And whether or not Eliezer was a Gentile or not doesn't prove Lazarus was a Gentile. Lazarus was not the servant of the rich man, but a beggar at the gates. All of htis is irrelavent to the meaning of this account.
This is about righteousness and unrighteousness. It's about consequence and the permanency of those consequences. Once you've died in your sin, there is no hope. For the hopeless here, there is hope. There is obviously a hell (Hades) and a place of peace and comfort after death, in many more scriptures than this one account. If you want to read so much more into this than you should, it only causes you rhetoric and confusion. God is not the author of confusion.
As far as "sea" goes, it does NOT always mean peoples, nations, tribes and tongues. Why don't you get out your Hebrew and Greek dictionaries and look up the words for yourself instead of having me spoon-feed you.
Thaddeus, I'm just going to share the following scriptures with you to prove to you that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in the same God:
Hosea 13:4 "Yet I have been the LORD (Yehovah) your God (Elohiym) since the land of Egypt; and you were not to know any god except Me, for there is no savior besides Me."
Acts 4:12: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" [speaking of Jesus].
John 3:5: Our Savior, Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." The very same Spirit of God that overshadowed Mary is the Father of our Savior, Jesus Christ (the Son of God), and is the very Holy Spirit that now indwells those who are "born again", born of the Spirit. Jesus is not called the “Son of the Holy Spirit”, so the Holy Spirit IS God. God is Spirit (John 4:24).
So, if we are "born of the Spirit" and yet are called "born of God" and "children of God", this proves it even further. We cannot be born of the Spirit, unless we are forgiven by Yehovah Elohiym through Jesus (Greek: Iesous (ee-ay-sooce') meaning Jehoshua, the name of our Lord and two (three); same as Hebrew Yehowshuwa meaning Yehovah saved.)
Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel (with us is God).
Isaiah 9:6 “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”
As the Son of Man, Jesus was made a "little lower than the angels", yet was fully God and fully Man, indwelt by the Godhead. He is the express image of the invisible God. He prayed as we are to pray. He submitted to the will of God as we are to submit to the will of God. He came to set the example for us and take all our temptations and sin upon Himself. God is Spirit, as I've proven by scripture and He did not cease to exist outside of the Son of Man. He is omnipresent.
If you want more proof, read "God is ONE: Trinity Explained" and "Who Do You Say That I AM", both on my Judah's Daughter profile.
As far as TORMENT, the Bible doesn't say people in hell are TORTURED. Note they are spelled differently and their definitions are different.
So again, you fail to see simple examples that I use concerning that obvious parable. Lazarus being a Jewish name does not have anything to do with why that name represents the gentiles. The name meant helpless. But let's not let that confuse us. You think that story is literal truth when it has countless instances of symbolism. I shouldn't be surprised because you no doubt think that Revelation is literal. Except you think the fire is magma. Just a slight difference I suppose. By the way, wouldn't you think burning people with fire would be torture? We know it says torment and this doesn't mean torture. It's not we who think people are burned literally in some hell hole for eternity. I would still like to hear what you think these people are doing while being eternally burned.
Hell-No, I just had another insight from the Lord for you, and have added it to this hub, as this is truly inspired by God for you...regarding the Father drawing us.
Revelation is explained by the angels in the book. They interpret Revelation for us. Yes, symbolism is used and understood by those who study. The account of the rich man and the beggar is not found in Revelation. There are many, many scriptures that speak of all three types of hell, and are specifically given in my hub on Hell. Look them up for yourself. I can only speak what the Word of God speaks, and that is hell is torment, in flames of fire and brimstone. Bodies are not physical, but spiritual. "They have no rest day or night" and the "smoke of their TORMENT goes up forever and ever", and there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".
The Holy spirit procedes from the father. It is not another person of God. You are right it is God! Jesus on the other hand is THE SON OF GOD! Don't double talk, answer my question please. If jesus is God why does He hand over the kingdom to the Father so that all may be all in God? If Jesus is God then all would already be all in God. Why does Jesus not know the day or the hour of His own return, just the Father knows. If you can answer these two questions to the point instead of something that has nothing to do with what I asked. Ask anyone with half a brain and they will tell you that throwing someone in a lake of fire for any amount of time would be torture. Then tell them it will be for an eternity and they will not die. Then tell them the reason they were thrown there, some of which never even heard of God or of Christ. All of these that were cast there bowed and proclaimed Christ as Lord by the spirit of God but they were sent there anyway. See what they would say? Why not ask God yourself! Thats what I did. I once went to jails and prisons and taught, I had alot of concerns about what I taught. My pastor was of no help he also double talked. It was hard for me to let go of the doctrins of men which I was taught from childhood! Praise be to God that not only was I called of God but I was also choosen By Him and it was not the other way around. I played church for 35 years before He gave me the Knowledge of truth. God has mercy on some and some He hardens in this life but God never tortures His childern. To say that you want be moved is false, God can move you if it be His will. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Uuuuuuuummmm?? So what's the revelation? Aaahh, did it occur to you that parables are also symbolism? So, the non literal but real fire and brimstone of Revelation is only tormenting rather than torturous. So, do the inhabitants actually feel this non literal but real fire and brimstone? (Excuse me, I meant magma and brimstone.) Or is it just a lot of smoke getting in their spiritual eyes. I mean, they can't feel it, right? Oh yeah, they would have to if they were screaming as you suggest when you lend credence to those Russian's digging into hell. After all, it's literal. . .. .or non literal brimstone down in the Earth? I'm confused. I don't think you know what you are talking about again. So which is it Carrie? Are people screaming way down under the crust of the earth, or don't they feel anything. . . . .meaning they wouldn't be screaming? Have you thought about any of your absurd beliefs or does your religion not allow this? Are those born into pagan cultures going to wallow in pain forever or do you think God had a plan for them? It's time for you to come clean. What is the purpose of the Lake of Fire and do spiritual beings suffer pysically. . ..or. . . .non physically, although only at the level of torment. . . . Help me out, I don't know what you think. Is it literal fire or magma, and can the people there actually feel it? And since you don't really know the word of God in my oppinion, stop quoting scriptures that you don't understand. I want your oppinion on what the Lake of Fire is, does, and causes.
Thaddeus, Jesus was the Son of Man, and the "day nor the hour" is part of the Jewish festival of trumpets, Rosh Hashana. Jesus also said He would come like a "thief in the night", which is also part of the Jewish wedding feast terminology. Jesus came to minister to the "lost sheep of Israel" (Ma 15:24) and spoke in their terminology.
I have a hub called, "In The Air-On The Earth" that goes into this in more detail. Here is just an example of Jesus speaking to the Jews:
1 Thes 5:2 "For you yourselves KNOW FULL WELL that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night." Verse 4 "But you, brethren, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, that the day would overtake you like a thief;"
As far as Jesus turning the kingdom over to God, all authority is granted unto Him (Ma 28:18). He was "Jesus" as the Son of Man, and is God. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal this to you. You are invited again to read the hubs I recommended to challenge your mistaken beliefs.
God has more than "half a brain", and it is man's interpretation of torment and torture that is not God's brain. The wisdom of man is foolishness to God (1 Cor 1:20 and 25).
Not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord" will inherit the kingdom of God (Ma 7:1). You know this to be true. It's in the Word. So, simple confession of the truth is not believing (submitting one's spiritual well-being to Christ), for the demons also believe and yet shudder (Jas 2:19).
Regarding being chosen by God, please read my add to this hub about "Unless the Father Draws (Drags) Him". There's more on that subject for you.
As far as "double-talk", it's only perceived to be so by you because you have "double-interpretation" in your mind. There is only one sound doctrine, and L. Ray Smith is twisted as the coils of the Serpent.
Funny, Hell-No, you only focus on Revelation? How about the words of Jesus? How about the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke? Speaking specifically of the Lake of Fire, look up the following scriptures: Mt 5:22 & 5:29, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15 and 23:33; M'r 9:43, 9:45 and 9:47; Lu 12:5; Jas 3:6. The Bible tells you all I have said, and more. If there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth", that means something is felt. "Torment" is felt. "No rest day or night" is felt. Help yourself. The Bible tells us this is the JUDGMENT of God; not the "purification" of God. You tell me I don't know my Bible? That's just your opinion, for your interpretation (or should I say, L. Ray Smith's interpretation) of the Bible merely tickles your ears.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."
I don't have to try to convince you. If you continue to ask, I will answer. God will do the same. You might try asking Him personally.
So it's felt. What, the gnashing of teeth or the fire? Gnashing of teeth has nothing to do with pain. Before they stoned Silas they gnashed their teeth at him. No rest, is only felt in a physical sense. Spiritual bodies don't sleep. It's speaking of the torment of being shown truths that you refuse to believe at the moment. Again, don't give me scriptures concerning the LOF because you don't even know what it is. Now that you have ignorantly stated that the LOF is felt physically, please show why a god of perfection would send illinformed people to it eternally.
Hell-No, rest is not sleep. There will be NO REST DAY OR NIGHT. Torment is felt. Have you ever been tormented? Obviously, the rich man was thirsty ~ NO WATER. HEAT. STENCH of SULPHER. Again, read the scriptures I gave you about the Lake of Fire. They will be most descriptive. If Hell cannot be felt physically, then heaven cannot either. I choose not to believe the lie you obviously believe. Whether you believe in heaven or hell doesn't save you. You don't get saved because you are afraid of going to Hell. You get saved because you understand who Jesus is, and want to fall in love with Him and spend your eternity with Him. His heart becomes your heart and you love Him with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. You share the love of Jesus and the fact they must be saved (accept Him as Savior) ~ how hard is that? For those who are called, it is not hard. We jump! The Word says that God draws all men to Himself, and this is done by the hearing of the Word. If one hears and rejects His Word, they are children of the Devil and will spend their eternity with him, not God. There is no in-between, and not everyone will be saved. Jesus said so. AMEN.
Boy, where do I start? Jesus never said that all would not be saved. Never did He say that. There are conditions to being saved. That I know. But He never said that these conditions would not eventually be met for all. Just as you said, God draws all men to Himself. That's what I've been saying. Just not everybody now. The fact that it says all, proves my point.
Now for the most ludicrous part of your last post: The stench of sulphur? Sulphur only has stench when mixed with other agents. Sulphur was used as a fumigant for religious ceremonies for god's sake. Thirsty? Your rich man assumtion is just more Babylonian twaddle. Torment does not have to be felt physically. This is ridiculous. Often kids are bullied by words alone. That in itself is tormenting. Having a job that you can't stand with bosses yelling at you can be tormenting. Going to prison and being locked up in a small cell most of the day is tormenting. Where do you come up with such untruth? I think it's really time for you to consider the notion of eternal pain. Trust me, if you can bring your mind to wrap around this idea, you will begin to beg for truth. Because you obviously don't have it.
Oh, and just to answer what you said to the other poster: Hell did not mean pit in Old English. It meant to cover. Where do you think we got the word helmet from? Still, they found a way to use it to support a terrible false doctrine.
Carrie, How are you its good to see the Lord at Work. I only see the Scripture one way God's Word is True and never change's. Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy His Word is Truth.
If the Prophet of God Zechariah speaks these Words then they are from the Spirit of Jesus Christ. I will bring the third part though the Fire to be refined as fine Gold or Silver. It is clear that not all will be able to call Him The Lord there GOD. Amen
K.J.V. Zec 13:8.9 8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Hell-No, Luke 13:23 "And someone said to Him, 'Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?' And He said to them,'Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.'" Does Jesus say here, all will be saved ~ even eventually? NO.
Torment may be that of being tormented by demons, whether in your mind or in their presence. We cannot say exactly what type of torment the Word is talking about, but that it will be eternal torment.
As far as sulpher smelling or not, we don't know if our senses will be sharpened or if we may have none in the next life. According to testimonies of people who have been pronounced dead and then been revived, they speak of the stench of sulpher in hell. It is only hear-say, of course. Likewise, people who have stated they experienced heaven speak of hightened knowledge and senses, and the smell of sweet perfume and fruit.
There is no salvation after death. Judgment is not purification. Destruction is not purification. If you read all the scriptures, you will see the words "death", "judgment" and "destroy". The Lake of Fire is the end, and fire will not save you. The blood of Jesus saves. Faith in Jesus who already shed His blood saves you. He will draw all men unto Him through His Word while all are alive. They have the choice only then. You have heard the Word of God and are guilty of rejecting it, for you are "waiting" to be saved in the next life, or "hoping" to be saved in this one. Just because you don't believe in eternal hell, though the Bible is clear about it, doesn't mean your interpretation is right. In fact, if you are NOT right, then all who wait until after they die (so they can enjoy sinning all throughout this life), will indeed perish. Perish means death. It does not mean purification.
Brother Leroy ~ it's a good point that even those "refined in the fire" (which are trials and persecutions in this life ~ before they die) is said to be 1/3. Still not ALL. And this particular scripture is speaking of the Jews...and perhaps that of the Day of the Lord (the Great Tribulation). I will have to do some more detailed study on this passage.
Bottom line is, the Lake of Fire is not an after-life purification, as this universalist doctrine believes. Thank you for your contribution to sharing yet more pertinent information with this group, brother Leroy. God bless you!
First death, then purification. By the way, death certainly does not mean screaming in fire.
Hell-No, Hebrews 9:27 states the contrary, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"...do you see the word "purification" there? Do you see that a man can die twice? No. The second "death" is eternal "death" in the Lake of Fire...and there is no getting out. The Lake of Fire being a purification unto salvation is a lie. The word "death" (spiritual) is permanent. It is not temporary. The word "life" (spiritual) is permanent also and is not temporary.
Frist thing I want to address is LOVE! You claim that agape love is only that with the Father and brethren. You claim agapao is the love for the world. Is that what you meant to say? Because, according to the strongest strongs exhaustive concordence of the bible you are flat wrong. Page 1587 agapao #25v. GK:26[26,27]. to love; in the NT usually the active love of God for his Son and his people, and the active love his people are to have for God, each other,and EVEN ENEMIES:- love [73], loved [39], loveth [20], beloved[7], lovest [2], lovedst [1]! Agape, GK: 27[25]. love, in the NT usually the active love of God for his Son and his people, and the active love his people are to have for God, each other, and even enemies; Do you see your era? Now to the next point. You said were is purification in the word judgment? From the NIV compact dictionary of the bible(Isa 2:12; Hos 5:8; Amos 5:18) Qoet, "The purpose of the judgment is purification! In the NT, as well as the OT, judgment is the aspect of the deliverance of believers. So you see Carrie you need to STUDY. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Strongs Concordance: agapao (ag-ap-ah’-o); perh. from agan (much) to love (in SOCIAL or MORAL sense (be-) love (-ed). Compared to our love of God and God’s love for believers, this is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of PRINCIPLE, DUTY and PROPRIETY; a matter of the mind.
agape (ag-ah’-pay); love, i.e. AFFECTION or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love-feast:- (feast of CHARITY), ([-ably]), DEAR, love as shown in John 15:13 “"Greater LOVE has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his FRIENDS. You are My FRIENDS if you do what I command you.” If we reject Him, we are not His FRIENDS. This type of love is that described in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 “…and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because THEY DID NOT RECEIVE the LOVE of the TRUTH so as to be SAVED.”
James 4:4-5 “You adulteresses, do you not know that FRIENDSHIP with the world is HOSTILITY toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a FRIEND of the world makes himself an ENEMY of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: ‘He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us’?”
Regarding Isaiah 2:12 "For the LORD of hosts hill have a day of reckoning against everyone who is proud and lofty, and against everyone who is lifted up, that he may be abased." I don't see anything about purification here. The proud will be made low.
Regarding Hosea 5:8 "Bow the horn in Gibeah, the trumpet in Ramah. Sound an alarm at Beth-aven: "Behind you, Benjamin!" ?? What does this have to do with judgement and purification? Did you misquote the Bible verse?
Regarding Amos 5:18 "Alas, you who are longing for the day of the LORD, For what purpose will the day of the LORD be to you? It will be darkness and not light;" Do you see anything about judgment and purification here?
What BIBLE are you reading, Thad?
Thad, if you go to biblos.com and search for any scripture that uses the words judgment and purification in the same verse, you will not find a single one.
For those who think the Day of the Lord is the judgment seat of Christ, for unbelievers to be cast into the Lake of Fire, it is not the same. The Day of the Lord is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" and called "The Great Tribulation", which will last for seven years ~ people who are alive will have unrestrained persecution. Some will be saved during this time; some will not. Those who die unsaved will be cast into the Lake of Fire after the tribulation period is over and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place.
I have wrote were I got my info? strong's strongest exhaustive concordence of the bible! Qoet,"the most up-to-date Hebrew and Greek dictionaries for PRECISE word study. Fully revised and corrected! Did you read from what was qoeted??? Do you think that James4:4-5 is saying not to love or be the friend of the people of the world or the things in the world such as evil, lust, self-righteousness, etc. If that is what you think then I don't believe you have any discernment. As far as purification, that part is from the NIV compact dictionary of the bible which I said in the comment if you had read the whole thing. I read the new spirit filled life bible NKJV,the NIV study bible,the interlinear bible hebrew, greek and english,holy bible KJV. These are the only ones I have at this time. Do I need another? Read my dear what was writen then look at the resource qoeted from, then give a comment. As far as misquote, I kill those but I don't get scripture from. I pull out books and read. If I don't have that resource I call a relative who is a professor at memphis state. Who sends that resource to me via the post office. The meek shall inherit the earth! Unless you become like one of these little children you shall never see the kingdom of God. God's judgments make us hummble, meek. They let us know who is in control. When we feel proud they bring us low. That is purification. If not it is punishment for no reason. If you do not learn from a judgment then that one wasn't enough. But to punish for eternity? What is the benifit of such a judgment? Where is the righeousness in this kind of judgment? In my NKJV they have changed words where world was in place of ages or age! That must have been a wrong translation of aion or aionions. Are there more revisions to come? will you still defend eternity in hell, in the lake of fire when that to has been corrected. With love, Thaddeus Cole. P.S. you need an up-dated concordance!
read your bible and quit typing in kee words my dear. Judgment is used to correct not torture! Read in strong's dictionary where it says design of - Judgments = to correct, to hummble ! It then gives about 30 or 40 scriptures to reference. I don't think you will read them but there it is for your seeing. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Thad, you said, "Do you think that James4:4-5 is saying not to love or be the friend of the people of the world or the things in the world such as evil, lust, self-righteousness, etc." God's Word says we are not to love (agape) the world, as in close attachment and friendship (embracing them as we do God Himself), for this is hostility toward God. We love (agapao) the sinner and hate the sin. You read it, and the Word is clear.
You said, "God's JUDGMENTS make us hummble, meek. They let us know who is in control. When we feel proud they bring us low. That is purification. If not it is PUNISHMENT for no reason."
Judgment is not discipline or purification.
Judge is the Greek word krino (kree'-no); prop. to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by impl to try, condemn, punish:-avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.
Discipline (Chasten) is the Greek word paideuo (pahee-dyoo'-o); to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl) discipline (by punishment):-chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.
Where your doctrine errs, seriously, is to think one can be saved through the Lake of Fire judgment. That is a gross error, and will cause the damnation (judgment) of many who simply reject the Word of the Lord in this life, for they will have no other chance after they physically die.
Use the Bible, and the Concordance to look up the Hebrew and Greek words as I did. That should supercede any extra-Biblical book, especially if it contradicts the definitions of the original languages as shown in the Strongs Concordance or any other reliable concordant dictionary.
I have given you you def. of agape and agapao from, once again I will say strongest strong's exhaustive concordence of the bible! They are the same definition. Did you read my first comment it was word for word out of strong's? Agape also has, love feast, the common meal shared by christians in connection with church meetings. Other than that there is no difference between the two! Both state,even enemies! What are you reading? With love,Thaddeus Cole
They are two different words with different meanings. If God had wanted them to be the same, He would have used the same Greek word. I also wrote, word for word, out the Strong's Comprehensive Concordance. Regardless of what you believe, the correct type of love to have for the world (the unbeliever) is not to love them equally with or more than God. Believers are said to be adopted into the family of God, so while we can love our neighbors, they are still not family. Strangers to God do not call Him Abba, Father.
Romans 8:15 "For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
Galatians 4:7 "Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God."
Jesus Himself does not even pray for the "world", but for His children, as shown in John 17:9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours."
Once again you have left out a comment that I made. So I will restate it for you. Under the word jugdments in the strongest strong's exhaustive concordance of the bible it states. Design of: To correct, to humble. I am sorry if you do not understand but when you ask what something has to do with something else or when you give the definition of a word or words that are not right you will be answered. The gaul of you to say that I read some extra biblical book when I gave you what I read. With love, Thaddeus Cole
No carrie they are not! According to what I read they are different words with the same meaning. Do you have the strongest strong's or an older version? That may be your problem! You need a revised edition, or corrected edition. When was yours published? I would hate to disagree because of a revision problem. With love, Thaddeus Cole
forgive them Father, for they not what they do? What does that imply? That he prays for people who do not believe of course. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Thad, I apologize for missing one of your comments and have posted it at well. Regarding the Strongs Dictionary ~ here's the online version for all readers to see for themselves. If you can find an online version showing me what you are stating, I will be more understanding of why you think as you do.
Here's the link to look up #2919 (judge) in the Strong's Greek Dictionary: http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstr
Here's the link to look up #3811 (discipline): http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstr
Here's the link to look up agapao and agape love (#25 and 26): http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstr
It is exactly as I have written, but not as you've stated. What, has L. Ray Smith re-written the dictionary, too? Aren't they re-writing the very Bible into the Concordant Literal Translation? That's an abominiation!!!
The Jews put Jesus on the cross, and they are His chosen ones, His brethren. Understanding this, He would pray on their behalf. The only nation the Bible states ALL will be saved is Israel. Romans 11:26 states, "All Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." Thus, the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" ~ to save all of Israel.
The Bible, when properly studied, does NOT contradict itself. Your founder, however, seems to believe it does, which is false. He/They is/are choosing to re-write the very Word of God to their own interpretation!!
Carrie, I have given you the name, page, def. Me nor L. Ray Smith have writen this book or the NIV compact dictionary of the bible but it doesn't jive with what you say. I'm sure there is a bible bookstore or online version of the strongest strong's exhaustive concordance of the bible that you can get. I'm sure that some of your readers will. If your dictionary has been revised carrie then you need to know what has changed! Again, what I read from was the strongest strong's exhaustive concordance of the bible. Now look in that one. If there is a different def. Than what you have then it is a problem of revision and you need to know which came first. The last being the most reliable. Can you understand that. If you can't and refuse to read the book I have listed then we have nothing to gain by this exchange. See I have both, actually 3 of strong's books and the one I read is the newest hince the name strongest strong's exhaustive concordance. I'm not going to argue with you. When you post a comment that I know to be false I will expose it. That is to keep the ones God chooses from being deceived. Me and you both have a mission from God but they surely are very different ones I am afraid. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Do you proof read? you said the reason Jesus prayed what He did was because they were jews. No carrie the romans put Jesus on the cross! Yes the jews had a hand in it to but there were more people there besides the jews. If you know the bible we have been grafted in. Boy when God blinds He really blinds um. You say my founder, You must be talking about my Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ! The scripture does not contridict but people like you do. Just go through and read all the comments you wrote. Although you probally will not see.Just read what I've put before you? You will not but someone who comes along will. You won't because you feel you are right, so what will it hurt unless you are wrong. I read your study tool. Not very exhaustive is it. Go and read if you have the time then tell me what you've read. Both are writen by James strong,ll.d., s.t.d. So there could not be a difference could there. Just like the KJV bible many revisions go into it. With Love, Thaddeus Cole
No my dear they are studing everything they can get there hands on not the back of the KJV bible. they are studing and finding mistranslations just as God would have them. You can not read one thing and think you know all. Studt to show thyself approved. If you do not have honest study then you are in jeapordy of being wrong as you are. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Hmmmm....the charge for which Jesus was crucified was for claiming to be "King of the Jews" and his cross had a sign posted on it with those words, and He had a crown of thorns on his head to mock Him. The Romans did not bring the charge against Jesus, but the Jewish leaders. Jesus does not contradict Himself either. He did not pray for the world, per the Bible verse given to you, but for those who are His. He has not forgiven the whole world. He made the propitiation for their sin, but until they submit to Him, accepting Him as their Lord and Savior, they are not forgiven, nor are they saved. There is no salvation after death.
What you are doing and those of your doctrine, is trying to find anything and everything that you can use to cause confusion to Bible-believing Christians (impossible to confuse us), confusion to the lost (most possible), and twisted documentation to support your twisted doctrine (thus, why you stay deceived).
We HAVE NO MORE TO DISCUSS, Thad. We are on two different sides of salvation. I am a born-again, Bible-believing, saved Christian; you are an L. Ray Smith follower, who is a representative of the Twisted Serpent. Sorry, Thad, but you are grossly deceived ~ nothing I have stated to you is getting through, and the "god of this world" (Satan) is still blinding your eyes so you don't see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. I pray God has mercy upon you.
Just as an added confirmation, Thad, Jesus said in Matthew 16:24 "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Gentiles, including the Roman soldiers, must be grafted in. We are called the "wild olive tree"; the Jews are called the "cultivated olive tree". For more information on this, see the hub on Judah's Daughter called "The ELECT of God". Jesus said, in John 3:7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'"
Carrie, the Jews were to be a type and shadow of the true elect of Christ. Christ was sent to save the world. However, the house of Israel represents the chosen who will reign with Christ for the milinium. Obviously, most of the Jews from that time on will not be in the first ressurection. But the true (and I do mean true) believers of the last 2000 years are the spiritual Jews. When Christ asked that all be forgiven, He was speaking of all mankind. Because of His great sacrifice, all have been forgiven for all sins. However, this does not eliminate the sin. It must be removed. But for mankind to have these sins removed ever, they must first be forgiven. This has happened.
Hell-No, the chosen ones are of the twelve tribes of Israel listed in Revelation 7:4-8. The Gentiles that are "grafted in" are represented in verse 9. Just as the branches of the "cultivated olive tree" (Jews) were "cut off" (Romans 11:24), they must be grafted in again as we who believe, and by the same criteria...to receive the Messiah. Because the cultivated olive tree is only made up of believers, those who are not of that tree will not inherit the kingdom of God. Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
You know that all things have been given to Christ Jesus. If I give my entire field to my son, will he not separate the wheat from the tares? If he burns the entire field, the wheat will come up stronger and so will the tares. There is no transformation. Fire does not save; the blood of Jesus does, and for only those who receive Him. John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,". Wheat from the Tares can be found in Mat 13.
The New Testament is in His blood, which is shed for MANY (not all will be saved). Mark 14:24 "And He said to them, 'This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.'" A Testament is a will, and the inheritance is for His children only. The devil's children will not inherit the kingdom of God (John 8:44).
Just as Jesus will separate the wheat from the tares, likewise He compares this to sheep and goats. John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;" (that was first the Jew, then to the Gentile). John 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they [who believe] will hear My voice; and they [who believe] will become one flock with one shepherd."
Will all be sheep? Did Jesus lay down his life for sheep AND goats? No. John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." Let's look at the separation of sheep and goats: Mat 25:33 "He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left." Why?
Mat 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right [sheep], 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left [goats], 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
what is so complicated about Jesus being the savior of the world and that HE WILL ACCOMPLISH HIS WILL...and that it does NOT please Him to loose ONE! Not ONE! What is so hard to believe about that! He asks US to forgive and forgive and forgive and YET HE is above that commandment and will NOT FORGIVE ultimately?? And that is JUST and that brings GLORY to HIS NAME?? Who's making up what? I very much HATE this "God" that I once believed in and that you still believe in!!!
Magoo, it's easier to believe a LIE than the truth. He says we are to forgive when those who've sinned against us REPENT. In fact, that is the prerequisite for forgiveness in the Bible althroughout. It's obvious you HATE the true God (as you say); maybe that's why He's allowed you to believe such a strong delusion. 2 Thes 2:10-12 "they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." Are you ready to repent?
Carrie, I've been reading you exchanges for a while. Are you saying that Hell No and Thad are under powerful delusions and are condemned? It seems to me that they also love God and Jesus as much as you do from reading your arguements altho I find their God more humane and loving than yours, carrie. I hope you will continue corresponding because I am learning a lot. I might learn to love this God that you are efending from your different point of views. Yhud and Hell No, please continue to discuss.
Carrie, you haven't answered hell no's question about your God torturing or tormenting (or whatever) the less informed aborigines or bushmen (or something to this effect) who were not reached by the word of God. Will He really? Just yes or no. Your answer will help me decide whether I can love or have a relationship with your kind of God. Again, just yes or no.
timpaul, God is Who He is, and His Word does not contradict itself. Our image of God must be based on the Word of God, not what we want to believe. Love is an English word that does not reflect what the Bible defines as love. When the Bible states in John 3:16 that "God so loved the world", it is not "agape" love, for if it were, this would contradict James 4:4 "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God" and John 17:9 when Jesus said, "I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours."
Why is this? Because the word "love" in John 3:16 is not "agape" (the love of God with His children), but "agapao", which is the social, moral, principled sense of love (He provided the only way for all to be saved by His grace), but indeed not all will be saved!! That doctrine fully contradicts the fulness and truth of the gospel.
We may not like the God of the Bible because He will send Satan's children to hell along with their father (see comments above for further scripture on this). However, the Bible prophesies in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 that "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."
Truth is not always what we want to hear or believe. We accept it by faith and we know that while we will never please God in and of ourselves, we must have faith in Jesus Christ and the fact that He pleased God alone! Hebrews 11:6 states, "without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." If we don't receive Jesus Christ as our Savior and accept that He already paid the price by accepting this gift and believing on Him and His Word, we will never be saved! God doesn't even HEAR sinners! John 9:31 states, "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him." What does it mean to do God's will? We can't do it on our own ~ ever! Jesus did it perfectly! If we don't have the blood of Christ covering our sin by accepting this sacrifice, God does not even hear us! When we believe in Jesus Christ and accept His sacrifice for us, He fills us with His Holy Spirit and will help us to accomplish God's will in our lives, as He did for Jesus. We will never be worthy of ourselves! We can't pay the price for our sin in a fire! We are not worthy to pay for our own sin. Jesus is the only worthy One ~ "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain!" (Revelation 5:4-12)
Now, regarding the less informed aborigines or bushmen (or something to this effect) who were not reached by the word of God, I thought I had addressed this. Jesus addressed it in John 15:22, "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." Because we are saved by grace through faith, and faith comes by hearing the Word of God, one cannot obtain the drawing by God or the faith in Christ without hearing the Word of God and are therefore without sin. However, when someone does hear the Word of God, he is drawn unto the Savior by this Word and must decide to receive it or reject it, for he is without excuse at that point.
I trust this gainfully answered your questions. God bless you, and I pray you receive and embrace the truth in Jesus' most precious name, amen.
No, carrie, it did not. I really just want to hear a yes or no from you. My question was so simple: Will your God torture them for all eternity?
Okey let me ask you a similar one for this is closer to my heart. I am a product of a Higaonon tribe in my country Philippines. I am now a city boy tho. My grandparents were the leaders of our tribe. I remembered how they were looked up to by our people for simply being good. Because of them there was peace and the people were never hungry and never have to worry about tribal feuds for my grandpa was also a good statesman. Sadly, though, they were never reached by your gospel. I don't remember missionaries going to our place in the boondocks. They died natural deaths without ever hearing or receiving this Jesus of yours.
Will your God torment them for eternity, carrie? Again this is a simple question that can be answered by a yes or a no. Your answer will help me decide whether I will embrace your message.
Thud and hell no, What will your God do to my grandparents?
You also did not answer my question if you are saying that Thud and Hell No are under pwerful delusions. Again just a yes or no. This would tell me something about your heart, carrie.
I am in search of spiritual truths...
The Bible says that the One who sows good seed (people who bear the fruit of feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, opening their homes, visiting those in prison, etc.) is Jesus. These are not guilty of religious works either because they have no religion or do things out of a wrong or selfish motive.
The one who sows bad seed is the Devil (people who bear the fruit of lawlessness). If your grandparents never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are not guilty of rejecting Him. God's Word says so. They are without sin, the Word says. Therefore, they are in God's presence now and for all eternity.
I don't like the subject of Hell any more than anyone else. God is the ultimate Judge and Jesus said the Word of God is what will judge us on the last day. Those who receive the gospel of Jesus Christ ~ that He is the only begotten Son of God, who created all things, and became flesh to die on the cross and shed His blood FOR OUR SIN, and rose again from the dead, are saved! We are not to be shaken of this truth by any false doctrine. When we come to know God because we have faith in Him and thus, He reveals Himself to us, we are not moved. We are saved now and for all eternity.
Truly, there are those who simply reject the gospel if they have even a thought that loved ones may not have been saved. Do they want to join them? The sad truth is, but is the truth nonetheless, we are not to place our loved ones above God. God can heal the hurts and will bring us into the truth. Please have faith.
I can tell you, if any of our loved ones didn't go to heaven, they would desperately want us to go to heaven! How much worse it would be to think we wouldn't!! Thus, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. While the rich man was in torment, he begged that someone would tell his brothers (who were still living) the gospel so they wouldn't end up there. Be blessed.
Thad and Hell-No are under a false doctrine/teachers. Unless they love their doctrine and teachers more than God, they have hope of salvation for as long as God gives them breath. Each man has an appointed time to die, according to the Word. I have an appointed time, and so do they. Jesus did, too. Satan tried to kill Jesus many times before His appointed time; so God is truly in control of that decision. While I still have a breath left in me, I care about them ~ to share the gospel and know I did my best ~ because I love them as God loves them.
If they are sold out to believing a lie, God's Word says that He sends them a strong delusion to believe a lie ~ their fate of judgment is sealed. I'm hoping that's not the case at this point! I'm here to minister the truth to anyone who comes. Obviously, they are still open for discussion.
I believe correct interpretation of God's Word does not return VOID. I pray sincerely that God will rescue those deceived by false doctrines/teachers from the "god of this world" who is blinding them. Jesus came to save the lost, and His children's purpose is the same!!
Only the Holy Spirit can draw all who hear the gospel; my calling is to share the gospel and pray that their ears will "hear" and their eyes will "see" so that their hearts receive Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. Please, Lord ~ in Jesus' most holy Name that is above ALL names ~ AMEN.
Is that a no? He will not be tormenting them? Whew! what a relief. At least my grandparents, by not being presented with the gospel (which they might have or could have rejected, i dont know), are in heaven for simply being good. Thats really good news. Please tell me more.
But wait, I forgot to mention to you that in our tribe we worhipped forest gods, river gods and field gods. We even do rituals for the dead that they might have a better life in the next. Well, we did not know of this Jesus or this God of yours. Nobody went up to us to tell us.
Will they still be in heaven, carrie? Or will they be tormented by your God?
If they worshipped the creation rather than the Creator, or if they worshiped other gods, they were not saved. How could they create gods for themselves, if they had no knowledge of God? Do you know for a fact they never had instinctive knowledge of the Creator? That would contradict God's Word. Even without the gospel of Jesus Christ, they would know God, their Creator!
This isn't going to be pleasant to hear, but the truth must be told: Romans 1:20 states, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
Adam and Eve didn't have a gospel or Jesus Christ as Savior. They knew the Creator instinctively. God is Spirit (John 4:24) so they never "saw" God. They knew Him as we know Him. Had they (and yes, their descendents did as your tribe) worshiped the creation or other gods rather than the Creator God, they also would not receive the salvation of God. In their case, they knew God and chose to obey Satan. Even though they were sorry, they couldn't atone for their sin. That's why Jesus had to come to pay for their sin and all who will repent! He redeems us back to God!
Romans 1:25 states, "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." If you have done these things, you have the choice not to continue to disobey your Creator God. You can be fully forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross!! Erased!! You must believe. Have faith in Jesus Christ and God's Word.
God's first commandment is this: "You shall have no other gods before Me". Instinctively, people know there's a God. Satan is the god of this world. If he convinced your grandparents that creation is to be worshiped, or even other gods, and they didn't listen to the prompting and instinctive knowledge of their Father, the One who created them, they are without excuse. The Bible says so.
I could only answer you based on the information you gave ~ all of this was not mentioned until now. So what will you do? Continue in the tradition of worhip of created things and false gods? If so, you face the same fate. And, you have also heard the gospel. God's Word was in the beginning with God and was God. His Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That Word is Jesus Christ. (John 1) God never changes. I'm really sorry ~~ I can imagine this is not what you wanted to hear.
The Universalist doctrine would now teach you that your grandparents are being saved by a fiery purification process until God decides they've suffered enough and they can go to heaven. That is not scripturally sound. We cannot save ourselves by paying for our own sin through fire. Jesus already paid the price IN FULL. He is standing at the door to your heart and knocking. If you hear His voice and open the door, He will come into you and dine with you and you with Him. The Bible says so. And no one can snatch you out of His hand! His grace is greater than all our sin. NO SUFFERING in FIRE of any sort!
If your grandparents were truly innocent, God would KNOW! I'm not the JUDGE! I just know what the Word says and can only answer you by that Word. HELL IS REAL. God is obviously drawing you to Him, or you wouldn't be seeking.
Seek Him and you will find Him! He will hear your prayers because you earnestly seek Him! The Bible says so! Don't give up. He loves you!
So your God will be torturing them for eternity because they did not know Jesus? Nobody told them. Their worship of their gods were already in their culture before they were born. Why didnt your God chose to have them born in America or somewhere were they will continually be exposed to this gospel of yours. Or at least born into a tribe where there is no pagan worship. At least they will surely go to heaven for simply being good people even if they did not hear of this Jesus of yours. Its unfair. I love them so much. My grandpa used to bring me to hunt deer and wild pigs. I guess God favored some because they were born into areas where this gospel is being preached everyday.
I still believe its not fair for your God , Carrie, to be tormenting my oldfolks. They did not get the same chance as you. I don't know. I am just devastated right now.
Again I just want a clear confirmation from you. Just a simple yes or no. Will your God, Carrie, torture my lola and lolo (grannies) for eternity?
Hello, carrie? You still did not answer my last post.
Anyway, from your first answer I get the thought that since my grandparents would have been saved by virtue of their being good had they not worship other gods, then should it be that you people should stop sending missionaries to unreached people? It is a fact that more people reject Christ than those who receive him. I believe you will be giving more people a chance to go to your heaven by not preaching to them.
Pleae forgive my delay. Jesus is our ever present help in times of sorrow and trouble. He is there for you every moment; just reach out to Him. I understand where you're coming from. My point is, people are created as spiritual as well as physical beings. Innately, we know there is a God, our Creator according to the Word. Only God knows whether your grandparents simply worshiped other gods out of innocense or intention. He knows the hearts of people.
Many who hear the gospel reject it because they believe man gets to heaven by good works. That is a twisting of the truth. Our righteousness is as "filthy rags", the Bible says. There is none righteous but Christ Jesus alone. If one has never heard the gospel, the Word says they have no sin. I am earnestly thinking that would include all kinds of sin (including UNintentional pagan god worship) ~ for, how would they know otherwise? God says all people KNOW He is the Creator from the get-go, but only He knows them! Again, that's my heart-felt thoughts on the matter, but I am not God. He is a righteous judge. He created them and knows their hearts.
Jesus told us to go into all the world and preach the gospel. I actually went to the Philippines on a missionary trip with Philippino-Americans, bringing the gospel in the Tagalog language. We also provided medical care and music. Hundreds received the gospel with joy and thanksgiving! There are other missionaries there as well ~ they actually live there. Those who received the gospel have assurance in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. Death looms over so many there because of natural disasters; many live at the base of volcanoes or are victims of hurricanes. Some live in trash dumps and are living with disease. Jesus loves them and wants to assure them that this life is but a breath compared to eternity in heaven. He gives us hope and comfort; I will pray He gives you hope and comfort, timpaul.
Each man must stand before God one day; each man is accountable to Him. If we receive the gospel, Jesus stands in our place! Without Jesus, we stand on our own, judged according to our deeds. It is not possible to get to know Jesus without faith. Ask Him to hear your prayers; come into your heart; and He will bring healing to you. His presence will be with you and comfort you all the days of your life. I am but human and I wish I had all the answers ~ for that reason, I must rely on the Bible until He comes again. 1 Corinthians 13:12 states we only see through the glass dimly right now; but then, we shall see Him face to face. He's coming soon ~ I hope to meet you there!
Remember, there is no mourning or grieving in heaven. He will wipe away every tear from our eyes. There is no more pain or sorrow. We will know peace, joy and love beyond measure.
So there really is no assurance if one is saved or not. Still ONLY YOUR GOD KNOWS THOSE WHO ARE TRULY HIS. No one really has the inside info of who He is going to save or not.
As to my grandparents, are you saying that if they worshipped their gods out of innocence they will be excused? At least thats what I get from what you said.
If it is true that there is no mourning in heaven, will you just (or will your God wipe out all memories of your loved ones or friends) forget all the loved ones you have who God is torturing in His hell? For sure not all of your loved ones or friends will be in heaven with you.
I look forward to your coming here, Carrie. I might even bring you to our tribe in the boondocks or to what was left of the place.
Peace!
Yes, there is assurance! I will share with you the scriptures the Lord has laid on my heart for you now:
1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."
John 10:28 "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
Romans 8:38-39 "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Revelation 21:4 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
I cannot know for sure about your grandparents, but have spoken what was on my heart. If you want assurance for yourself, there is assurance! Please read my hub on Judah's Daughter (my other profile) called "Come to JESUS: Salvation". It is REAL, my brother. He is REAL. You will know!! He will comfort you!! He never goes against His Word and you can stand on His Word each and every moment!!
I wish I could come to see you and where your tribe once lived. My heart is with you, for God loves you and so do I!
But still I could not possibly have a relationship with your God who may be frying and tormenting my grandparents forever and ever. I don't understand what is so sound about that, Carrie. I am so sorry.
So the good deeds of my grandparents are not "filthy rags"?
Isaiah 64:6 states, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."
Ephesians 2:8-9 state, "For by grace you have been saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast."
Timpaul, we are not gods, in that we can usurp His Word by choosing our own will above His. We are created by Him and for Him. He is the righteous Judge, and Jesus is the sacrifice for our sins. Without Jesus Christ, we stand condemned. It's His Word and we cannot refute God. If you choose to be angry with God because you don't like His Word, you are choosing to reject your Lord and Savior. It truly is your choice, a choice which you have until your appointed time of death and judgment comes.
Hebrews 9:27 states "it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment"
He made the way ~ why let Satan claim your soul? We don't know if your grandparents are in heaven ~ but we do know that if they NEVER heard the gospel and didn't know better, the Word says they are without sin. What if they ARE in heaven? Are you not going there because you assume the worst?
This ALL has to do with your grandparents. It appears you love them more than you love God, your Creator and Savior ~ (they are gone and can never do anything for you again). Please think about that. I cannot save you ~ your heart has to lead you to repentance (turn away from your anger) and receiving Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. There is no other way.
John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'"
So its all about saving our own selves now without thinking of others? For as long as we are saved ourseleves "to hell with others"(if I may borrow a common American expression)? In the story of the Lazarus man, if I will end up in heaven, I will be seeing my grannies in hell suffering forever. I answered my own previous question which you did not care to answer, Carrie, about whether one remembers his or her loved ones and friends in hell.
The reason why I can not have a relationship with your God, Carrie, is because He is not reliable as you presented Him to me.
In my first few questions, you said my grandparents are in heaven because of their being good. Now you are telling me their good works are like filthy rags. So even if they did not worship other gods (innocently or not- another confusion. Is there really an innocent worship?) they would have been tormented forever by your God anyway. Which is which now, Carrie? I am confused.
Carrie, I will say this with a heavy heart- I will rather be in hell with my dear old grandparents than spend eternity with your God in heaven. From what you said I am now sure they are there because they did not know your Jesus (no other name by which men will be saved, right?).
It seems to me that your gospel brings more people to hell than to heaven. "We don't know if your grandparents are in heaven ~ but we do know that if they NEVER heard the gospel and didn't know better, the Word says they are without sin."
ITS MUCH BETTER NOT TO LET PEOPLE HEAR OF YOUR GOSPEL. More people reject than receive it.
Which brings me to this conclusion (again from your answer): If people are saved even without hearing the gospel for they did not know better as you said, then what is the purpose of Jesus dying (the gospel, right?)? I hope you see my point, Carrie. I guess your God made me inquisitive and to not accept anything without weighing things in their proper perspective.
Peace to you, Carrie.
YOU NEGLECT WHAT I SAID ABOUT YOUR GRANDPARENTS: IF THEY NEVER HEARD THE GOSPEL IS THE PREREQUISITE!! NOT GOOD OR BAD WORKS!!! Would you rather God had no mercy? That He just let all evil doers into heaven? Well, Man screwed that up, my friend. We sinned after knowing God, and that sin is in our DNA. We must be made pure by accepting the sacrifice for our sin.
Keep in mind that Hades is just the temporary hell; it is not the eternal Lake of Fire. The Bible says they will be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb, not the children of God! He does not contradict His Word! And the Bible only accounts for this conversation between the rich man and Abraham, not Lazarus; it is assumed that Lazarus saw the rich man in torment.
It sounds to me like your grandparents are your god, for you place them above God to your own demise. By the testimonies of those who went to hell and lived again to tell about it, it is a place of isolation from "loved ones" ~ isolation from love of any sort.
What do you mean we are saved and don't care about others? Why do you think I'm here talking to YOU? And OTHERS? If salvation were just for me and I didn't care, I wouldn't have the heart of Christ ~ that is the evidence of salvation!
God is God. If I didn't present Him to your satisfaction, perhaps another of His children will. I did my best and that I can say when I stand before my Lord.
"it is assumed that Lazarus saw the rich man in torment." exactly my point, Carrie. You also will be seeing your loved ones and friends who did not make it to heaven, Carrie, and see them being tormented by your God who is also beside you in heaven. Haven't you thought of that, too? I hope all your loved ones make it, Carrie.
My grandparents are my god? How could you say that? Its just that I love them more than the God you presented to me, Carrie, that's why I said I am willing to spend eternity with them in hell than with your God in heaven. At least I can comfort them and they me in hell. If I accept your Jesus, how could I comfort my frail lolo and lola in heaven while they suffer in your God's hell(in the presence of the Lamb-Jesus, right?)? NO, CARRIE, I JUST LOVE THEM MORE FOR THEY WERE THERE PHYSICALLY WITH ME WHEN I NEEDED THEM. In hell, where your God will torture them, it will be my turn to be a jesus to them (since your Jesus will not do anything for them there) by comforting them. In the first place, they were there by default. They were also without excuse as you said. Your merciful God did not favor them and gave them as much chance as you.
I am so sorry, Carrie. As I have told you I am so devastated right now. I came to this sight looking for comfort. Now my burden is more unbearable than before. You tried your best. Thank you. But it seems to me that this aspect of your God- that of being an eternal tormentor to both rapist, murderers, doubters and frail old people (who were good but who happens to worship what you call idols) alike, you yourself are not so sure of (or maybe not proud- as children feel of their fathers)
I asked you a simple question which pretty much will tell me your heart about your Daddy in heaven: Will He torture forever my lolo and lola, or bushmen, etc... for worshiping idols? You have to answer with so many words that I lost your heart, when a simple yes or no would have suffice. Why can't you just say "Yes".
Again, I apologized. Peace!
By the way, the thinking of others thing is not only in this world, Carrie. I was projecting to the next life which will affect the way we behave in this life and lead us to ask the right questions to whoever higher being we are serving right now.
"assumed" and "will" are two totally different things. Will is absolute; assumed is seeing through a glass dimly, but not knowing for sure (1 Corinthians 13:12).
You think you're able to comfort anyone in hell? If that were so, it would not be a place of torment. As I said, for those who've experienced hell (and if you want to hear a testimony, go to my Judah's Daughter profile here on hubpages and read the "HELL: Sheowl, Hades, Tartaroo, Geenna" hub. There is an hour-long testimony by Bill Wiese who went to hell and came back to tell us about it. He testifies is a place of isolation away from love of any sort; nor can you show love to anyone. It is the antithesis of love, for Satan is the god of hell and Satan is a thief, murderer and destroyer. God's presence is not there at all.
The choice for salvation or damnation is yours until the day you breath your last breath. I can't give you a Yes or No when it comes to your grandparents or whether we can see people in Hades (hell) from Paradise (the third heaven). I do know only Jesus and the angels are said to be able to see the Lake of Fire from the New Heaven and New Earth, per the Bible.
If you love God, you love His Word. If you love your grandparents more than God, the Bible says you are not worthy to be His disciple (follower/student) and you are hostile toward God. This is your choice. If Satan has you believing you will experience love for and with your grandparents in hell (if they even went to hell? ~ Satan would really be stoked if your grandparents are in heaven and you thought otherwise, sending yourself to hell) ~ now that would be torment for you, wouldn't it? There's no coming out of hell once you're there.
See, I don't tell you what you want to hear. I tell you the truth. Even if you don't believe it's the truth; truth never changes. You can't argue with God or blame God for your choices. He made the way to the Father and offers you eternal life, where we will experience love with Him and all the saints! It is not a place of isolation and torment. Hell, again, is the antithesis of heaven.
I'm sorry about not knowing where your grandparents are. I could only give you the Word of God. According to what you've told me and the information in the Bible, they could be on either side. How will you know? That's got to be something, as it is the criteria for whether you get saved or not...I guess you're going to have to decide whether you love Jesus more than your grandparents.
Your grandparents were created by God. Your tribe chose to worship the creation rather than the Creator, right? Do you see why I said you've made your grandparents your gods? Again, Romans 1:25 states, "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."
My Understanding is L. Ray Smith has no Followers???
He has no Church and has only a website that shares is understanding of the Scriptures. I lso conclude that he uses no-other out-side source for his belief other than the scriptures alone??? Nor has this web-site of yours been able to prove other-wise. Show me one out-side source or book that shows L. Ray Smith belonging to or spouting non biblical information???
PuttB, L. Ray Smith's INTERPRETATION of the BIBLE is CORRUPT. It doesn't matter whether he uses outside sources or not. Satan did not use any other source but the Word of God either when he tempted Eve and Jesus. He twisted the Words to change the truth into a LIE. Otherwise, he would be too obviously known as ANTI-CHRIST.
What a cruel God you have, Carrie. Makes me wonder if you are much like Him so let me ask you this question: If it all depends on you, Carrie, would you send your enemies to your Christian burning hell to be tortured for ever and ever without even the benefit of dying? Again, a simple yes or no would give me the greatest satisfaction. It would greatly help if you would try to put your finger in a burning candle and see how many seconds can you endure. Remember, this is the character of your merciful and loving God we are talkling here, Carrie.
In a nutshell, carrie this what I have learned so far: God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations, in HELL forever. He loves us more than we can ever comprehend, but if we don’t return His affections, He will make us regret it for eternity. Wow!
Is that what you call sound (fair, logically defensible, morally acceptable) doctrine, Carrie? Again, a simple yes or no would give me great satisfaction (so far you haven't given me that benefit that I always lost your heart through your wordy answers), carrie.
Remember again we are talking about the character of your god, carrie.
Matthew 12:30 "He who is not for Me is against Me", the Lord says. He who is not for God is not "His beloved". I am not God. God says He will cast all those against Him into the Lake of Fire. So, to ask me if I would do as God would do ~ I do the will of my Father for He is in me and I in Him (John 14:17). It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me (Galatians 2:20). Anyone who hates me hates my Father also, for He doesn't know my Father (John 15:18-21). You may think I am being hateful, but if you were in the Lord you would not falsely accuse me of such things. If you hate the Word of God, you hate God. You are not with God or for God. Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth? (Galatians 4:16).
It's interesing your name is timpaul, for the Apostles Paul and Timothy were mightily used of the Lord to spread this gospel of Jesus Christ by which we live until He comes again. Paul also said, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!"
Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" and in 2 Timothy 4:3, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."
So, while you don't want to believe in Hell, the demons know it is real. They don't want you coming to the Father through Jesus Christ and thus they cause you to believe there is somehow "comfort of one another in hell", or that there is no such thing as Hell, or to hate God because there is a HELL. The worst of it is, if you believe you will be saved after death, like this L. Ray Smith group, you won't have a second chance. Satan will have won your soul. Anything that stands against God's truth is of the father of lies ~ Satan.
So you are much like your father in heaven. At least I know your heart now. I would not send a mad dog to your hell, Carrie.
I don't hate your God, Carrie. Where did you get that notion? I just can't love him by the way you represented him. If that's the truth, as you say, then so be it. I can not love him (an eternal torment god). That doesn't mean I hate him? In fact by what you are not directly stating I am learning more about Him. I am just questioning if He is really what most christians purports him to be. I think, He is more than what you think. I look up the sky and stars at night and see the beauty of these things. If your God is really the creator, then I just don't see where your eternal hell fits in. I see the creator, whoever he is, as powerfuland one with a good purpose. My grandpa taught me that. Even the bad things that happens now. Mabe my lolo discovered something about this god that we don't. We call that God, Magbabaya- or God who blesses.
Thats why I also find contradictions in what christians are saying.
Consider these: He asks you to forgive your enemies, but he won't? Or his forgiveness has time limits.
You like to say that he is merciful, but his mercy ends only after death? Will he stop being merciful after death? I can just picture your lamb (jesus) just standing there while most of His creation are tormented. So he is not the same yesterday, today and forever as you people like to say. He would not even lift a finger to comfort? I don't understand what's sound about that.
You like to sing "God is good all the time." More like "god is good only in this life"
Carrie, I ask this with a heavy heart. Is your relationship with your god borne more of coercion (the fear of hell) than out of genuine love?
So,okey, carrie, you would send your enemies that did not have the willpower as you do to your hell. How about acquaintances, friends and love ones that did not decide for your Jesus? Would you also send them, Carrie, if its all up to you?
NO, CARRIE, YOU HAVE NOT BECOME MY ENEMY.Have I? for doubting the character of your cruel god (He is who he says he is, right? So we better toe the line)? At least you were honest enough to reveal how you have become like your papa above by your truth that you told me. Some of your brothers and sisters are not that open and honest like you. You call that hypocrisy, right?
As to timpaul, yes maybe that has some reasons. Its the influence of christians on my parents. But thats another topic. Glad you discover it, though. I've been reading your bible and so far I did not read about this Paul expounding on your christian hell as much as you do. Well, I have to read some more.
Peace, Carrie. BTW, are you the actress?
Timpaul, looks like your comment appeared three times. You stated, "I see the creator, whoever he is, as powerful and one with a good purpose. My grandpa taught me that. Even the bad things that happens now. Mabe my lolo discovered something about this god that we don't. We call that God, Magbabaya- or God who blesses." It surely sounds like God's Word is true here...that your grandparents knew there was a God, the Creator, but didn't know His name. His name is YHWH (Yehovah Elohiym, which means LORD God).
To love our enemies is to tell them the truth and be kind to them as Jesus was. To forgive our enemies releases us of anger that will otherwise give place to the Devil in our hearts. The way we treat our enemies gives them a taste of God's grace and will hopefully draw them unto salvation. That is the purpose. Jesus said He came as a Man not to judge the world (we are in the age of grace until He comes again). However, He said that anyone who does not receive His sayings has one who judges Him ~ the Word He spoke will judge him on the last day. He is still drawing by grace now; but wrath and judgment is coming.
You wondered if I was coerced into salvation? NO. I felt the love of God as soon as I heard of Him and I responded with thanksgiving and love. I had been a foster kid tossed to the wolves of the world and the love of God was welcoming and comforting. I have no fear in this love. Perfect love (when we receive it) casts out fear, the Bible says.
I do not have any more willpower than anyone else. We are not saved by willpower. We believe and receive the Holy Spirit by faith and allow Him to change us from the inside out. Because of this, we are saved every day of this life and the next. God is good to us in this life and the next.
I hope that answers some of your questions, and I am encouraged that you are reading the Bible. The Holy Spirit can speak to you for Himself when you read it! God bless you.
I'm going to be away for a few days, so I'll get back to you when I return next week.
So, god is good all the time to those who are only good to him also. Thats the sense I get. How about mercy, Carrie? Will it be limited to time too?
How about acquaintances, friends and love ones that did not decide for your Jesus? Would you also send them to your hell, Carrie, if its all up to you?
Not to decide is to decide. Innocence is what it is and God is the judge. The parable of the wheat and the tares tells us that the rain falls on the just and the unjust during this age of grace. It will be so until the Reapers come (the angels) who will separate the wheat from the tares (sheep from the goats). Only Jesus can change a tare into wheat (or a goat into a sheep) while His grace (the life-giving rain) falls upon us all.
You can't see through God's eyes and the wisdom of man is foolishness to God. We don't even know what God knows, so how can we question Him? We will understand when we see Him face to face. I pray you have a blessed Thanksgiving.
timpaul, the Lord put John 3:3-7 on my heart for you:
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, UNLESS one is born again, he CANNOT see the kingdom of God.' Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?' Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, UNLESS one is born of water (mother) and the Spirit (God), he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirt. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You MUST be born again.'"
Notice UNLESS, CANNOT and MUST. If you want to know what it means to be "born of the Spirit" or "born again", please read my hub on Judah's Daughter called "Come to Jesus: SALVATION": http://hubpages.com/hub/Come-to-JESUS-Salvation
Remember that works do not save us and never will. We are saved by unmerited favor (grace) through faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. He accepts us just as we are and will put His Spirit in us (because we are made holy by His blood). His Spirit will guide us into the truth daily, transforming us into the likeness of Christ, a new creature, until He comes again to take us home. God bless you!
Again I lost your heart thru your wordy answer, carrie? I only need a yes or no.
How about acquaintances, friends and love ones that did not decide for your Jesus? Would you also send them to your hell, Carrie, if its all up to you? Just a yes or no because I want to really know how much of your father's image is in you.
Okey, let me paraphrase: How about acquaintances, friends and love ones who REJECTED your Jesus? Would you also send them to your hell, Carrie, if its all up to you?
Jesus says we are to love Him more than the "world" (even family). If I have acquaintances, friends and loved ones who REJECTED my Jesus, I would be sad in this life only because I know where they are headed. I know I won't feel any pain or sorrow, mourning or tears in heaven. Because I also desire all to be saved as my Father, I am working hours a day sharing the gospel and answering questions for those who seek. I hope that answers your question. Again, I'm going on a trip, so your comments will have to wait until I get back.
Thanks for your "yes" altho you really could not state it with conviction. I know that it pains you. Believe me, I understand you perfectly.
Peace, Carrie.
Yes, and amen, timpaul. If it pains us, think of how it pains our Father in heaven. The shortest verse in the whole Bible is found in John 11:35..."JESUS WEPT." He gave His life; what more could He give. Revelation 3:20 states, "'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." He loves you; I know He does. God bless you.
The point of the whole mnatter is this. Would God force Himself upon someone? That is called RAPE.
Everyone has to make their own choice. God does not send anyone to hell, they choose to go on their own.
You can not separate your eternal hell from the nature and character of your father. Thats why it pains you. You said, "I don't like the subject of Hell any more than anyone else." Therefore, for eternity, Carrie, you are willing to live with this part, character and nature of your God that you don't like for as long as you don't end up in hell. That's why i ask if you are only into this because of coecion. Truth to tell, your god is no different from hitler, sadam hussein and bin ladin combined.
I think, the creator who made so wonderful a universe is more than what ou think, Carrie.
I am at Timothy now and I still could not read anything about Paul expounding so much about this eternal hell of yours. Is he really a followeer of Jesus? If hell is that horrible, shouldn't he have explained on it more than all the good things I learned about this God of his.
Hi, carrie. I am still waiting for your reply. I hope I have not become your enemy because I pointed out how cruel a god you have and how you have even become so like him. You would even send friends and love ones to your hell if its all up to you if they have rejected your Jesus. No, I dont consider you hateful. You are also what you are because you are just like your dad, so what can I do. If I am deceive by Satan for being rational, so be it(hey, I am just created being and a product of my circumstances. Somebody must have made me this way.).
At least you are so honest with me, Carrie. I just hope all christians are as honest in their convictions as you. Yes, I have christian acquiantances thats why I know a little of your doctrines.
By the way, In my readings, I still haven't read anything about hell being thoroughly expounded by Paul as much as you. Is his message different from Jesus? Or is it lacking?
timpaul, for you to say "Truth to tell, your god is no different from hitler, sadam hussein and bin ladin combined" is to say God terrorizes and kills the innocent. God's Word only addresses those who are "without excuse" when it comes to hell.
While you are focusing on the message of Paul, why not focus on the words of Jesus when it comes to hell? He spoke of hell more than heaven. Again, you'll have to read my hub, "HELL: Sheowl, Hades, Tartaroo, Geenna" to be able to see all the passages pertaining to hell. That hub is on my Judah's Daughter profile.
I'm sorry you didn't remember I said I would be away for a few days for Thanksgiving...I'm still not home, but made some time to get back to you.
timpaul But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise and GOD hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty.
To expound on what t.raf just stated, when God chooses the foolish and weak things of the world (any human being that believes in Him), they speak by the wisdom of God, which is greater than all worldly wisdom ~ for the wisdom of man is foolishness to God. While the word "confound" appears to mean "baffle" or "surprise", it actually means "shame". God uses the foolish things of the world to shame the wise men of the world (1 Cor 1:27). Even Satan does not have the knowledge of God. Had he, he wouldn't have crucified Jesus! This is recorded in 1 Cor 2:8. Only God knows all things ~ Satan and his children have limited knowledge; God gives knowledge daily to those who love Him and are in Him. It is a Spiritual gift. Jesus told us about this in John 16:13.
I've always thought it was even cooler than that. Not only does Satan not know everything but when he does know something God works His will anyway. I think that there are plenty of times that God actually makes Satan do things. I know that God knows what Satan will think and takes that into consideration but I think that He also controls Him so that he will say, "There will be a mark" "There will be beheadings" "There will be one currency" etc. God is amazing and OMNISAPIENT (my favorite "omni" of God.) Omnisapient is the ability to work everything to His will even though the opposite is crafted. I love you and am having "withdraws.
Hi brother nobody, what you say opens a whole can of worms for these folks, in that they say if God knows everything, controls everything and everyone, it is His responsibility to save everyone or is to blame when someone isn't saved.
Truly, God knows everything and Satan does not. Satan doesn't know God's next move, as he didn't know he was accomplishing the will of God by crucifying Jesus. Satan has a will and rebelled against God. That was his choice. However, God still trumps Satan's power. Likewise, man has a will and rebels against God. That is his choice. However, God still trumps man and his rebellion as He does Satan...for those who rebel against God are children of the devil. Amazingly, these are they who exalt their knowledge and wisdom above God's, just like their "father".
Bottom line is, God knows Satan's every move and can control Him. Satan does not know God's next move and though he tries to control Him, never will. AMEN.
God bless you ~~ driving home tomorrow. Pray for traveling mercies :-)
I will sis. I've missed you.
hey Sir Dent we got to make a choice you say ,nobody made the choice to be born,God just put us here. Hopefully one day God will reveal to you his truths. God bless
t raf ~ thank God we were born, for we have the hope of eternal life in incorruptible bodies. That proves that eternity is not just an age that ends and begins another. INCORRUPTIBLE! Be thankful you were born. Get saved today! It's a free gift just waiting for you to open it. You just have to open up your heart and let Him in. Amen.
no body says:
6 months ago
Dear God in heaven use this hub in Your power. Turn these people that you love to You from following one man. Use someone to reach them before it is too late even if it is not us only use someone Lord. Soften their hearts and ready their minds for you. And I pray this in the powerful name of your Son Christ Jesus. Amen