LGBT Issues and Sexual Violence
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Is Gay Marriage the Same as Child Molestation or Bestiality?
This question is so idiotic it would be comical if real people weren't seriously equating the LGBT community with convicted
child molesters and sheep f*ckers.
But they are.
We hear that kind of garbage on the news SO much, that I thought a useful Hub Mob topic might be LGBT issues as they relate (or
don't) to sexual violence issues. I personally find it to be an interesting topic, and one
that I don't see written about accurately very often.
I guess I should start by stating the obvious:
Marrying your four-year-old or your sheep is definitely not the same thing as marrying your same sex partner. Grow up for Pete's Sake. Stop saying this pernicious crap out loud. It makes you look ignorant and it bums the rest of us out.
Tone down that rhetoric before your mouth catches on fire.
Beyond that obvious factoid, I do think that sexual violence issues and LGBT issues have an uncomfortable and extremely complex relationship with each other. This is a completely different statement than saying that LGBT issues and sexual violence issues are related.
They're not related. They do stand in relationship.
Let me try to explain.
Sexual Orientation & Sexual Behavior
This is how the American Psychological Association defines sexual orientation:
"Sexual orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction that a person feels toward another person. Sexual orientation falls along a continuum. In other words, someone does not have to be exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, but can feel varying degrees of attraction for both genders. Sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime—different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual."
In other words, sexual orientation is fairly complicated and does not rule out sexual behavior with persons of the non-preferred gender. Homosexuals do sometimes have sex with heterosexuals, and some heterosexuals do engage in homosexual behaviors. Some people are truly bisexual and have strong feelings for both sexes.
Sexual orientation is not defined by what you do so much as by what you think about in the dark and what you want most, and that is different for every single person on earth.
Many, many people have a tough time getting their minds around the sexual continuum model of orientation, even though it is recognized widely as the most accurate one. Many people want sexual orientation to be rigidly defined, even though not all people can be easily categorized. It's telling that we demand a declaration of sexual preference at all--and we do. Nothing creates social discomfort like non-theatrical androgyny.
Not very long ago, homosexuality was listed as a psychological disorder in the DSM-II, the APA's manual of all the different kinds of crazy. That listing was deleted when it became obvious that, apart from being statistically deviant, homosexuality per se appeared to have no pathological effects that necessitated psychological treatment. Quite the contrary, social repression of an individual's true orientation is what does damage.
In other words, homosexuality is not morally or psychologically deviant. It is only 'deviant' in the sense that fewer people are oriented only to the same sex as to the opposite one, making homosexuality a deviation from the statistical 'norm' in terms of numerical percentages.
In any given society, across cultures, across historical time periods, the ratio people who have an LGBT orientation to people who have a heterosexual orientation remains remarkably consistent, suggesting that homosexuality has a biological component.
But therein lies the controversy.
Since sexual orientation develops over time, and since it is determined neither by sexual behavior alone nor by genetics alone, it cannot be accurately said that all LGBT people are born lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgendered.
And that fact is the big stick that anyone--straight or LGBT--can pick up to whack a nasty, nasty hornet's nest of political, social, and moral controversy.
My feeling is, we should all put down that stick. Put it down right now.
Don't we already have plenty of other more fixable problems?
Be nice. Everybody should strive to play nice.
Fate or Choice?
Most LBGT people will say that they were born that way. Their experience of their own sexuality is that they always felt different, and that sometime between childhood and adulthood they were able to recognize that their orientation was the cause of those feelings of 'differentness'.
The story of that recognition, followed by the open acceptance and public definition of oneself as LGBT is referred to often as the 'coming out' process, and it is unique for each and every LGBT person.
Yet some people do insist that their sexual orientation was a choice. Many women, especially late in life, after the hormonal changes of menopause make intercourse far less of a priority than it was when they were younger, change their orientation. These women are more likely than young lesbian women to define their lesbianism as chosen, not genetic. This causes some consternation both within the LGBT community and outside it. Some people get angry about it.
Similarly, many female victims of sexual abuse actively choose to bond sexually with women. In some cases, this happens because such women were molested during puberty for prolonged time periods of time, often years, by men they trusted such as fathers, step-fathers, uncles, etc.
When a young woman is effectively being raped repeatedly by a male relative during the very time when under normal circumstances she would be shifting her childhood attraction from her mother (and other women) to her father (and other men), she cannot developmentally complete a normal heterosexual orientation. She will fear men or be repulsed by them, or sometimes have these feelings come up alongside attraction. That's a very difficult headful of emotions, and some women in this condition opt out.
If you ask such women about their experience of their own sexuality, they will say (unlike most lesbians without sexual abuse histories) that they chose to be gay. They are usually aware of a basic orientation toward men, but that orientation has been permanently poisoned.
Heterosexual men who are molested as children also often go through a period of confusion about their own sexuality during which they worry about whether their molestation has 'made them gay.' This is made even more painful and confusing if they actually are gay.
Transgendered people have very difficult adjustments to make and have often led excruciatingly painful emotional lives filled with rejection and violence directed at them for their identification with the other gender. They often lose much, even everything, in deciding to go through with gender reassignment.
It might seem on the surface that gender reassignment clearly a choice, yet most transgendered persons have experienced themselves as transgendered since childhood. Reassignment surgery is the last step in a very long process that started very early indeed. In some sense it is the surgery is not so much a sex change surgery as genital reconstruction surgery. The gender has been in place for years, it is only the equipment that is altered to match the inner person.
When transgendered persons complete reassignment surgery, they may or may not form sexual bonds with the opposite sex. Men who become women may find male lovers but often they will find female lovers and blend in to the lesbian community. This is a difficult thing for heterosexual people to understand, but mostly because they don't want to understand it. The truth is they don't need to understand it. Back off heterosexual people, back off.
Historically, there was a time when doctors and psychologists looked for traumatic causes of LGBT identities. Sexual violence, incest, rape, and molestation, as well as inappropriate emotional closeness to the opposite sex parent were all blamed for causing kids to 'become gay'. We know now that that line of thinking was completely wrong.
And yet, there is an overlap that confuses people both inside and outside the LGBT community, and that has in the past caused plenty of unnecessarily harsh words as people on all sides search for a simple defining explanation.
There isn't one.
Orientation & Abuse
LGBT identities are not caused by sexual violence or abuse. Abuse does not automatically 'make' some people 'turn' LBGT, but it can alter development and self-perception such that abuse victims actively choose an LGBT identity and say so, in just that way.
It shouldn't be hard to imagine why a rape, incest, or domestic violence victim might swear off men and mean it, and I think that choice should be respected all around. It's a very personal choice, and it just isn't right for anyone except the victim to make it or to judge.
Similarly, if a man struggling with childhood molestation finds himself working through these painful issues with gay lovers, a certain amount of compassion is called for. It's difficult, because gay men hardly look forward to the prospect of their lovers waking up one day and declaring they are probably straight. It's excruciating for all involved, but it happens.
When gay men are molested as children they struggle with guilt. Did they ask for it? If it was pleasurable, that's even more confusing. Or not. What I'm pointing out here is that there is no single scenario that we can wrap our minds around and just say, "oh, so that's how it is."
Sexual violence happens between gay and lesbian couples with roughly the same frequency it happens in heterosexual couples. It isn't like homosexuality is this peaceful island that, if only you can navigate the rough waters that surround it and land safely on shore, you will be rewarded with lasting peace and carefree relating forever and ever.
No: gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered persons can all find themselves in verbally abusive or violent relationships as easily as heterosexual persons can.
Relationships are hard no matter what one's sexual orientation is, and anyone can be abusive within a relationship. Abuse and violence has absolutely nothing to do with orientation.
Finally, pedophilia, rape, and molestation are crimes of power that are most often committed by heterosexual men. This again is hard for many people to understand, mostly because they equate these crimes with sex instead of power.
Most studies suggest that men who have sex with children develop an addiction that operates much like any other addiction, but is harder to shake than almost anything, including heroin or crack.
Very few child molesters are ever rehabilitated, and most of them are heterosexual men. Convicted child molesters are often placed in lifetime twelve-step programs, are sometimes given drugs, and are closely monitored. Even then, they reoffend more frequently than not.
Many people who are homophobic use possible molestation of children as a reason to keep LGBT people out of various public service jobs and helping professions. Such fears are completely misplaced and have the darkly ironic side effect of making it easier for actual pedophiles to continue abusing kids.
Life Is Complicated
I hope this was helpful.
Confusing, maybe, but that's par for the course.
Life is complicated, but it doesn't have to be if we approach other people and ourselves with a degree of compassion and open-mindedness.
My own feeling is that most people are terrified of sex, and adopting a rigid and judgmental attitude is their way of trying to get comfortable and feel safer.
The sad thing is, that approach actually causes more fear and more damage. The hardest thing in the world, I think, is to learn to accept what is, not what you think should be.
I'm not entirely there myself. But I'm trying.
Thanks for sticking it out to the end of a hub that grew a lot longer than I expected it would.
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Comments
Great hub, Pam. I observed a long time ago that some lesbians I knew seemed to be "born that way" and others seemed to be reacting to abusive relationships with the opposite sex. I can't say it *never* mattered to me - I grew up in the South, in a "Christian" family. It took a lot of life experience before I learned to stop judging. I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head, though, about judgemental people being afraid of sex. Bingo.
I have been trying to help victims with this issue for most of my adult life. I understand it some, and some of the phenomenon is still a bit of a mystery to me. The two generalizations I have come to accept are (1) what you said, that sex is a scary subject for most, probably because we have worked through (or not) are deepest insecurities in the bedroom, and (2) sexual abuse (from molestation to homosexual phobias) is more about control than sex (that's what makes sex with children special for the molester). I get tired of saying it, but . . . excellent hub.
However, much as the conduct of people has forced us to make this a primary topic of conversation, it represents to me the misplaced priorities of this Judaeo-Christian culture of ours. Reminds me of Obama's press conference yesterday where, after hearing him discuss issues like Iran, North Korea and health care, one reporter could only ask whether it was true that the President had snuck a cigarette. Equally sad is that Obama felt obliged to explain his "sin".
Great article, Pam - you really should look at academic writing - it pays a little better ;)
Had to pull an all nighter, so a little too tired to take it all in - I will read it properly in the morning.
Great hub, Pam. Thank you for tackling a multiplicity of sensitive topics in an understanding, respectful way. It does confuse people and I think you're right about it -- people get scared of sex and anything to do with it.
I think the fear is self sustaining too, that the discrimination and constant social attacks help fan a terror of sex and sexuality, because just about anything sexual even by straight people is going to be criticized constantly. The fear isn't just something handed off from previous prudish generations.
A lot of it is Catch-22 fears. No matter what some people do, they will get attacked. One of the biggest cultural problems is that it seems to be okay across the board to attack other people for their sexuality or any display of it, for their identity and gender, for their personal tastes in anything.
Under everything there's this fear, fanned every day by the constant personal criticism most people put up with and think of as part of normal life. It's not healthy or good. It's not a good way to live, living in fear, yet people do without questioning why it goes on. Something has to break that up.
Your hubs do a good job of raising the chance of living in a better way, one that doesn't mean always looking over your shoulder.
Perverts! Everywhere! And they are the most vocal against same sex partnerships. I could not believe my eyes and ears when I watched a congressman on the floor of House of Representatives going on in a graphic manor (you should have seen the look on his face) about the type of sex that some LGBT people have. He went into so much detail and droned on and on and on about it. He was trying to introduce anti homosexual legislation. The guy had serious issues. Not all LBGT people have healthy relationships, but many do. Just like same sex couples. I feel that the people who vociferously bash them are perverted inside. I wish these bashers would just keep their issues in the closet where they belong!
Hi, Pam. THANKS for writing this. I have so much to say on this topic that I think I'll just have to write my own article on it, I don't want to meddle your comments section here with my nonsense! :-)
Oh Pam. You know as well as I do: That continuum of sexual attraction is just a rationalization by sick people who want to plant the seeds of doubt in normal people's minds about their own sex lives.
I consider myself a normally sexed person. I have always been attracted to Caucasian males and only Caucasian males. Specifically, the males who attract me are 6' 2" tall, dark curly (but not kinky) hair, large build, facial hair (but not too much), brown eyes with heavy eyelashes, a single tattoo on the left bicep, a scar on their right kneecap, moderate chest hair, and a first name that begin with the letter "J."
Now, at the risk of being labeled afraid or sex or rigid or whatever, I am willing to broaden my horizons. I could possibly consider someone with a name beginning with "R" or "M" -- but only if they met all my other criteria:---)
Hi Nancy--Good point, thank you for posting the links.
Hi dineane--I know what you mean about the religion connection. I was raised Catholic and that religion is not always all that accepting either. It's weird because it really isn't a main part of Christianity--people tack it on. Thanks for your comment.
Steve--I agree that it's unfortunate and misplace that we spend so much energy on sexual issues in the U.S. It shows that there is something neurotic about our culture as a whole. I wrote this because Hub Mob is about LGBT issues this week--but I also am personally interested. Great comments as always.
Sufi--I did check out one academic writing site but it seemed like I never saw anything I felt qualified to write about. Maybe I'll try again. Thanks for the suggestion.
Robert-- Thank you for that insightful comment. I do think fear kind of feeds on itself. I wish sometimes that everyone could just take a deep breath and lighten up.
Paper Moon--I'm from Indiana originally, and it seems like every other stupid thing out of a Congressperson's mouth comes out of an Indiana Congressperson's mouth. Some of them need serious help, it's totally true.
Elena--I am looking forward to that hub, I hope you write it soon. Don't forget to do it as part of Hub Mob--it's their topic of the week. Thank you for reading this. I am happy you liked it and your comments are NEVER nonsense,
MM--All I can say is, if you are going to fall in with those M-lovers and R-lovers you will burn in hell forever. But no worries. It's a free country. Choose your damnation if you must but please no more direct talk of it--I dont' want to 'catch it' or something. LOL!
Yet again HubPages has me gasping in amazement! Seriously Pam, I can scarcely believe that this is still such a big issue for people. I've been following the comments on a hub of Kerrys on a related topic, and I've been horrified by the ignorant and self-righteous comments she's been fielding there. I hope you don't get too many of those!
What happens between consenting adults behind closed doors should be no-one else's business, and those same-sex couples in a loving and committed relationship should be entitled to the same respect and legal entitlements as their heterosexual counterparts. What such relationships can possibly have in common with more deviant and abusive behaviours is beyond me.
Thank you for sticking with the topic and letting it unfold as a longer hub. Your ability to see clearly what others have difficulties defining is excellent. As Sufi said, Academic writing pays a little better, and you are a natural.
On the topic: it is clearly and evidently more complex than homophobes are apparently capable of understanding, and that is sad. The equation of power and sex in the pedophile's mind, the rapist's mind, the abuser's mind, is an ugly one. Women are beautiful. Does that make me lesbian, or observant? Some men can be abusive. Does that make me lesbian, or experienced? The whole concept of sexuality is not black/white. Many of us -- more of us than not, I think -- live in a gray area of normal humanity.
Hi Amanda--My sense is that the U.S. has more issues with this than Britain or Europe does. The first settlers here had extreme religious views and that strain has never died out. America has always had sexual hang ups, and recently the extreme right has become very loud and reactionary on these topics. It's fun though to see their most self-righteous proponents melt down in various scanadals over secret gay affairs, secret attractions to children, secret philandering. It recalls the Shakespeare line, "Methinks thou dost protest too much!" Thanks for your comment!
Hi Teresa--I agree. Most of us are shades of gray. I taught briefly in Women's Studies and dealt with these issues and with the controversy that accompanies them on a daily basis. I worked with lots of gay and lesbian people, bisexual people, transgendered, and sexual abuse survivors, and my feeling is that getting to know the PEOPLE behind those labels makes the labels less important. Certainly defining one's sexual identity is an important part of life, but it's not like it's a thing set in stone, ever.
I don't do very well in the academy. I have some kind of authority problem that seems as though it isn't going to go away in this lifetime. I've just come to terms with it. It's not the end of the world. Maybe I could write for some blind submission journals though. That might actually be kind of fun and if anything ever got published it would be a total hoot. Thanks for your always insightful thoughts. :)
Wish people could learn to live and let live
Amen Ethel, amen.
Haha, as Amanda mentions, I've been embroiled in a breathtakingly pointless and apparently endless debate on one of my hubs for DAYS and should really just stop responding. If this were a bingo card both of us would already have filled it up several times over:
http://www.geocities.com/patrick_farley/gayMarriag
~sigh~
Unfortunately, I've caught myself repeatedly oversimplifying things for the sake of argument ("it's not a choice, DAMMIT!") even when I know it's not the whole story. I hate doing that and now I'm tempted to send him over to this excellent hub to see if it can blow his little mind, but I wouldn't want you to have to deal with him!
LOL! Aw, send him over! Maybe his head will explode or something. :)
Seriously, I'm to the point where I don't respond to nonsense as much as I once did. Eventually I will be able to just ignore people like that. Some people, it's all they do--troll the internet looking for a fight. How pathetic is that? Really it's very sad.
Thank you so much for this wonderful Hub! As always, you not only hit the nail right on the head, you absolutely flattened it with your trademark grace and humor. Thank you for your insights and your excellent information.
Hi RedElf! What a nice thing to say. I really appreciate it. Thanks for stopping by and reading this. :)
Hello Pam, I just logged in and your "10 things to do when you can't find work" hub came up so I went and read that. Maybe we should add #11 "If you find yourself really bored or really frustrated, consider becoming a Hub crusader defending against trolls." LOL.
CNN Headline News is on (endless loop) here. I have seen about 5x a disturbing story of a church -- I believe it's in Connecticut -- where they are trying to exorcise homosexuality out of a teen boy. The elders of the church claim they do not condemn homosexuality, they just don't condone that lifestyle. Hmm. I always thought exorocism was reserved for the most vile and evil forces. I worry we are going backwards when stories like this even get airplay.
Hi MM--I think we are teetering on the edge of an abyss and it's an open question which way we'll fall. I sense a backlash that, while a minority, is vicious and relentless. I do think though that, as Obama said recently, the arc of history leans toward freedom (or some such inspiring thing. I mean, whatever. You get my drift! lol!)
With all due respect, I have never seen anything in the news media or late night talk shows that has in any way equated homosexual relations with bestiality. However, I do personally believe that it is part of the same progression: normal relations degrade to homosexual relations degrade to bestiality degrade to who knows what. But I have not seen this being spouted by the media - including prime time programming. I do see some TV at work, and it's either neutral or pro-gay.
To be real I have to be a little graphic. The male part should not go into a hole that has nothing to with reproduction, and is certainly not designed to take it. Gay men have many lasting problems after repeated use that go beyond normal wear and tear of age and normal relations. At the beginning, you call for logic, well this fact is logical too. Let's not hide from the facts in an effort to remove hatred from the equation.
I do fear that now LBGT is accepted by society at large, bestiality is the next step. The same logic can be used to make it acceptable because some people feel that animals are equal to human beings and that sentiment is growing just as pro-gay thought started growing years ago.
I do understand that many homosexuals believe themselves to be moral people, but there is a small group that feel homosexual love with children is normal and acceptable. They are organized and very active. This scares the hell out of me, but they will argue that it is a good thing if the boy is willing. I once read an account online of such a man who remembered his first experience as a boy with an older man with fondness. If people accept that it is okay for him, what about other kids? It seems illogical now, but so did homosexuality 20 - 30 yrs ago.I want to add that I would not presume that someone who is gay is a child molestor - people with these issues usually focus on one kind of lifestyle.
I have to say this is a very balanced and thorough hub, you wrote about this issue with compassion and thoughfulness. I believe in the live and let live policy, it should be okay for all of us to state our opinions, (religious vs pro-gay), but it is not okay for any of us to make laws concerning activities in the bedroom.
As far as marriage as being endorsed by the state, I think it's interesting that marriage has anything to do with the state at all. Marriage has always been a community / family event, and usually a religious event - what does the state have to do with that? I say, as long as pastors are not being forced to conduct gay marriages, let it be. The state should neither endorse nor prevent marriage. I am glad for the tax benefits that I will get if I ever get married, but maybe we should look at giving benefits to people with children, or people who volunteer their time for societal good, (charities, etcetera).
The debate over whether gay couples should be allowed to adopt children should be considered democratically. If the majority wants it, then there's no argument.
I hope that I have added something worth reading to your comments section, I notice that everyone who commented is completely in alignment with your thoughts and I am offering something different. As always, I enjoy your hubs and I love seeing your name in my inbox.
Hi Alexander--I don't agree of course with the progression toward beastiality (I do say that straight up at the beginning of the hub), but I do agree about marriage and adoption. I don't see why the state is involved in marriage at all for hetersexuals or homosexuals. It's a religious ceremony to my mind, and should be conducted as such, with each religious community to decide its own conditions and values.
Thank you for taking the time to comment and for reading the hub. :)
Always a pleasure, I'm glad we always find some common ground. I understand what you're saying, that homosexual orientation has nothing to do with beastiality. I just hope that society never becomes "enlightened" enough to think that is okay too.
Great hub, Pam! Speaking only for myself, I feel I was born gay and have never felt differently, from early childhood until now. I understand that there is a considerable spectrum of sexuality though. I'm glad you wrote this with compassion and rationality - this topic usually degenerates into self-righteousness and fearmongering, only a bit of which I see in the comments. :)
Hi livelonger--Your experience is what most of my gay friends tell me is their experience as well. When I taught in Women's Studies though I saw a lot of other kinds of folks and realized it does get complex. I also relate it to my own experience growing up under less than ideal conditions with lots of ongoing sexual trauma during adolescence. I don't think I really got 'cooked' right, ever. Seriously, I don't think that girls develop normal sexual identities under those conditions, and my conversations with others like me and my research on it have affirmed that this is often the case.
I think in cases where abuse has been a major developmental influence the best that can be said is that people sometimes come out with an unfinished identity. It's almost like having no sexual orientation. I live with a great man and we are good friends, but I went through hell figuring myself out and spent my best years with lots of conflicting feelings. I think this is common but people don't talk about it because of the stigma and the crap they get from both sides. If that makes sense. I do wish people could just be kind, but usually they can't. Lots of meltdowns and unpleasantness. Thank you for your upbeat comment. :)
pgrundy, I found myself rooting you on as I read through this hub. You've stated very clearly what I've been trying to for years! I even used this logic in commenting on another hub because someone was going on a rant against the LGBT hub there, but wasn't quite as eloquent.
I hope you don't mind that I share this here, it was quite long. Maybe you can make it sound so much more academic and I can learn something from you. ;) If this is inappropriate, please deny or remove this comment and I'll totally write a better one.
This is Trooper's hub: http://hubpages.com/hub/The-non-issue-of-Gay-Marri
Here's part of my comment!
...on the argument of slippery slope, the argument that if we allow gay people rights, we're forced to allow *more* people rights. Gasp. Hmm, no, not holding any traction for me. I want to go on the record as saying allowing people to marry more than just one spouse is not inherently a bad thing in my opinion.
As for laws against defamation, marrying relatives, marrying your dog, pedophilia, etc .... well, those are very useful laws. Why? Because number one, defamation is harmful. Number two, marrying relatives.. well, I shouldn't touch on this one because I haven't actually thought about it. I just know it's taboo for some reason.
Number three, marrying your dog is irrelevant. That's like saying you think gays are inhuman. We're talking about HUMAN relationships and marriages being given rights and the recognition they deserve. Safe, consensual, and human relationship and marriages. Plus, your dog does not have a voice, sweetie. Dogs are considered children when people share homes with them. Your dog won't be able to tell you, "Sure, I want you to screw me" or "Sure, I'll marry you" - in fact, your dog may not like anything you do to it at all! People, on the other hand, can tell each other "I love you", "I'll marry you", "I'll consent to a wonderful, fantastic sex with you", etc.
Number four, I don't see how pedophilia or molestation or anything to do with children gets mentioned here. Pedophilia is non-consensual, harmful, un-safe, and traumatizing - nothing like the consent adult gays give to eachother to marry or love for the rest of their lives.
Hi Sunny,
I read through all those comments on Trooper22's hub--including mine and yours--and I gotta say, I'm surprised (but happy!) that this hub hasn't gotten more hateful marry-yer-dog type comments.
I agree, the government shouldn't be involved in marriage at all. If people want to marry, they are free to do that in their church or in their own community, and each is free to set its own standards so long as we're talking about consenting adults. It bothers me that married couples straight OR gay get breaks that single people don't. I don't see the point in it. Give each person the same chances at everything, period.
I think when people go on about how gay marriage will destroy the institution of marriage, they mean something I don't mean here--but what I'm saying is, eventually gay marriage may indeed force government OUT of marriage, and that's a good thing. Gay marriage won't do a thing to hurt heterosexual church marriages--to think it will is just nuts. The gay haters will still be free to be in religions that denounce homosexuality. But gay marriage will raise lots of questions about why the government is playing marriage broker in the first place, which I think is unconstitutional and just bad policy.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. :)
Hi Pam, this is such a thorough examination of the matter, I wish this hub could be advertised, circulated in different ways, mainly it should become part of young people's education somehow. This is more important than newspapers, because kids nowadays don't read newspapers but they will listen to a teacher and heavens know that they need sensible orientation in this and all matters.
I hope you are not right, though, when you say that there's going to be a backlash in our society but I know the danger for it to happen is permanent, sex being so intimately related to life and death.
I wanted to tell Alexander Mark that homosexuality has been an accepted fact in more than one society through human history, Greece being just one exemple, and when it was accepted it didn't degenerate into anything else that I know of.
On the other hand, bestiality is not necessarily the behaviour of horrendous monsters, let's not be so harsh on it. Forever it's been the normal and mostly transitory behaviour of many a human male in rural environments either in young age or in absence of human feminine presence. Those men were not, are not monsters, please!
I can't remember who said that perversity was the behaviour of others. I understand this. I understand the immense amount of constant criticism of the behaviour of our fellow humans, whether hetero or homosexual or whatever. There are reasons for this and I don't want to be too harsh neither on the many who still have a problem with the sexual orientation of others. I don't want to segregate them nor insult them as they themselves do into others. I just pray and wish that we try all together to be more enlightened (and this hub is such a perfect contribution for this), meaning, that we try to acquire more knowledge about human behaviour, and also that we try to love each other, after all, apparently it's been proved now that we humans are all cousins :-)
Thank you PGrundy!
Hi rosario--I love what you said, "Perversity is the behavior of others." That is so good. I think there is an awful lot of truth in it too.
I'm with you. I'd like to see everyone become more committed to compassion and less morally outraged. Sex seems so important to many people but from my own perspective, it's just one part of life and life has a lot of parts. So to get so wigged out about what happens between consenting adults, it makes no sense to me. It's just such a waste of energy.
I appreciate your supportive and thoughtful comments. Thank you so much as well!
This is a very difficult and controversial topic -- and you have handled it magnificently. For my part I think that governments AND the media should just butt out of everyone's personal, private and family lives.
Thanks Good Cook. I agree totally.
rosariomontenegro, I understand you are referring to my comment about how homosexuality was not very acceptable 20 - 30 years ago, I was referring to American history. Yes, homosexuality has been accepted in various places at various times, but it seems to me that the world has not found it to be palatable on a whole until recent times. Whether or not people find it acceptable shouldn't matter to you or me, we both stand on what we believe regardless right?
I have to say you make my point. some people believe homosexuality is okay, and that bestiality is okay, or excusable. We all have different forms of logic, and some could use your logic to say pedophilia is okay. I don't mean this as an attack, I am presenting an argument for something scary, but nevertheless we have to face because some will use it.
I have to agree with pgrundy about compassion over judging. I don't mean that we shouldn't have opinions, but that what 2 consenting adults do in their bedroom is entirely up to them. I still struggle with the idea of outlawing immoral acts according to one religion's principles, namely Christianity, but fear that a religion I don't like would make laws, and then I realize that we need freedom, the right to choose for ourselves what is best. That is why I say live and let live. I don't need to agree with other's lifestyle choices, but we can live in peace without dictating how the other should behave. This is also why I am against teaching this stuff in school, just like I don't think high school should endorse evolution or creation so that no one gets force fed. Or we can teach both side by side. Proponents for both say that they have indesputable proof, so we cannot suppress either and claim to be democratic.
Hi Alexander Mark, I just discovered that you had answered something, I didn't mean to ignore your comment.
You say:
"I have to say you make my point. some people believe homosexuality is okay, and that bestiality is okay, or excusable. We all have different forms of logic, and some could use your logic to say pedophilia is okay."
Where did I say that homosexuality was ok, bestiality ok? And how my logic could make someone say that pedophilia is ok?
I'll use other words, to clarify.
Homosexuality, bestiality and yes, pedophilia, have been and are still accepted human behaviours in different times and different places around the world. This is a fact, not an opinion. To state a fact does not imply this or that judgement, facts are neutral.
I did say that one should not think or treat people as if they were "horrendous monsters" when they engage in behaviours that for them and their society are normal, at least if the behaviour does not imply the inflicting of suffering.
In a general way I'd like myself not to ever think that anybody is a "horrendous monster", but still in my heart I can feel that type of repulsion when somebody is inflicting any suffering on another being, particularly if the being is weaker or defenseless, be it human or animal or whatever.
No matter what, I'm happy that we all agree on the compassion at the time of judging. Happy too that, even if you would like your moral religious choices enforced by law, you realize, wisely, that that opens the door for any religious group to force on us laws that we don't want.
Now come on now. I am also a victim of everyone around me, man,woman, parent, child, etc...and their individual behaviours. I live in this world too. I am not put off men, or women friends, or kids, and I keep in touch with my elders who treat me worse than my kids. As we become wiser, we just are more careful where we tread. It is unfortunately correct that a convicted male molester can be innocent. Lying is another form of abuse. Some girls display symptoms they have been, but the same symptoms are found in homes where women have been suppressed by the men and they are resentful, feel disrespected, the men have all the say, and eventually, the men get what they deserve, because their life has been hell. Many wouldn't have the bullying violence in them to make it understood, that get convicted. Two adults who both consent to be gay, nothing wrong with that!
Nancy's Niche says:
5 months ago
Good article however, not all sex offender convictions are guilty of the act...Read Elusive Innocence--Survival Guide For The Falsely Accused and written by a lawyer...Roy Black, Esq.
http://hubpages.com/hub/A-QUESTION-OF-GUILT
http://hubpages.com/hub/WRONGFUL-COVICTIONS