Socialism Is Not Your ENEMY!!!
62
A system of helping people.
Some people in the world believe that socialism is some sort of evil, a diseased sort of government that robs initiative from individuals and makes them into same-thinking automatons. In reality, however, socialism in the Western European form is a government that recognizes the need to help people live better lives. Here in Spain we have one large Socialist party, PSOE or Partido Socialista Obrero Espanola, the Spanish Working Peoples Party, and a number of break-off splinter parties. We also have a right-wing socialist party that closely resembles the old Fascist parties of Mussolini and other fascists of the 1930's. Many people do not realise that until General Franco died Spain was a National Socialist nation ruled by a right-wing dictator. It had very warm relations with the U.S. during that time when America had military bases in Spain. General Dwight Eisenhower even came here and said very good things about fascist Spain.
In the US and in very few other nations capitalism rules. Capitalism is often seen as the enemy of socialism, but in fact both capitalism and socialism dwell side by side in Europe. In other words, Europe is a mixture of the two entites. Even the U.S. is a mixture, because you have social security, unemployment insurance, and several other things that were championed by the socialists of old.
Here in Europe, though, people who are unemployed receive better treatment than in the US and everyone receives free health coverage. I've read some ignorant rants from the U.S. that claim people wait for weeks to receive treatment and I have yet to see anyone here complain about having had to wait for health coverage. As far as I can tell, it simply doesn't happen. I may be wrong, but with the wide variety of politically active press we have here in Spain, believe me, it would be on the front pages if it did.
I was a U.S. citizen until I moved here, so when I worked my benefits were the same as my Spanish born wife and kids. It was difficult to find work but I have good skills, and I was hired and have worked for the same company for a very long time. I get three long holidays every year, reduced prices on trips to spas and resorts, reduced rail and bus fares, etc., now that I am in what we call the third age, that is, elderly and retired.
We have a Communist party here in Spain that is active and not very large. Anyone who knows about the Civil War here back in the late 1930's knows that once the forces of Germany, Italy and the USSR were fighting a proxy war in Spain. The pain of the conflict is largely over and people who were once ready to kill each other now sit and laugh on TV programs, discussing how much they've grown older and the pains of getting old, but the hatred and rancor simply isn't there any more. But in democratic Spain, parties of radically different views get along rather well, and each party is proud of its stance both politically and popularly.
But one thing we know that apparently people in the U.S. do not know is that Socialism is NOT Communism. We can have democracy, an even wider version than people in the U.S. have, because we can vote for many more parties who actually get elected to our congresso, and we fully understand where each party lies politically. Right wing parties do not hide behind a mask and neither do left wing parties. Their views and agendas are out there, open, for all to see.
I believe that the government in the U.S. will not last very much longer. Already we in Europe are seeing what may be the final days of the United States, or as we call it here in Spain, the E.E.U.U. (Estados Unidos). The main reason seems to be that your nation is no longer united. We see a lot of sentiment from here that some of your states no longer wish to be affiliated with each other. Texas governor Rick Perry seems to be leading the charge for secession, harkening back to the days of the American Civil War.
In Europe we are working through the idea of a united Europe and are succeeding where the U.S. seems to be failing. We do not have the same goals as you do, or the same world outlook. Our nations believe in things that may seems radical or even dangerous to you but to us these things seems pretty normal and progressive. We recognize that not all Muslims are evil, Christianity is not something that favors progress and science, and that the nations with the best educational systems will rule the future. And face it, your school systems are below standard, and these idiotic ideas of pushing religious views into the mainstream classroom are as backwards as those radicals in Islam that want their old religious laws to rule the state. Sorry, but we see you as being a nation split between people who want to move into the new century being stifled by those reactionary conservative forces that want a unified religion to tell people how to live and what to do.
We have some radical right wingers here as well, but their views, while expressed politically, are often a distinct and very small minority. We laugh at some of their silly views, their desire to go back to some non-existent golden age of yore. They take themselves periously enough and have a voice, albeit a small one. In our past we had war, nationalism, anger and starvation. We overcame that by realizing that the U.S. version of democracy was worth emulating while the American version of economics was not.
So, we are democracies in the very real sense, and perhaps even more worthy of the name than is the U.S., and we are not smitten with capitalism as the one and only way to run an economy.
Now the downside is that the U.S. has become so powerful and so unfettered in its ability to mess things up that we, the rest of he world, want to put the top back on the bottle and prevent your greed and avarice from ruining the rest of the world. Once you realise that the world does not revolve around you and your ideas, maybe you will be more welcome in the wide scheme of things. But from what I've seen many people in the U.S. are suspicious of what other nations do, and I believe that as you sink into your well of conservative muck and mire you will be left behind. A nation powerful in nukes but poor in values and character.
Socialism is not the enemy. Greed is. Capitalism fosters rampant greed. Therefore, Capitalism must be the enemy. Anyone care to prove me wrong?
PrintShare it! — Rate it: up down flag this hub
Comments
Nice Hub, Ivan - a very good synopsis of European political attitudes.
Substitute 'Greece' for 'Spain' and it is pretty much the same, even down to the US supporting the fascist regime!
Glad that you enjoy the Mediterranean lifestyle and mentality - the same reason that we moved to Greece :)
There's a fault with all systems but socialism isn't excessive, which is why I appreciate it. Personally, I think balance is key.
Hi Writer Rider - Long time no see. Hope that life is treating you well :)
Amen to that!
Hi Sufidreamer. No problems so far, except a computer problem or two. Yes, I certainly hope America discovers balance again...and with a better system. Capitalism put a strangle hold on our economy which, in essence, is an eye opener.
Yes, Dolores Monet, that is true that the right wingers tend to be very prone to looking backwards instead of forward. They had their day and good riddance!
Glad you could come by and comment. All that misinformation about Europe just gets under my skin. The U.S. was once my home and I loved it as a child, seeing it through the eyes of a naive child. But as I grew up, fought in one of its unjustified wars, and saw many of my friends treated like baby killers and not even respected when they came home from war, I left and never regretted it a day.
We don't have much of the radio conservatism that you have over there, Rush the Lush Limbaugh and the like. But we do have newspapers and they are all political in some sense. I read mostly El Pais, which is left center. But we have other papers which are more left or right wing and vehement, but at least they don;t hide behind the veil of "fair and balanced" as does your so-called Fox News. I found that channel particularly stupid and biased. And I understand they were behind the recent so-called tea party juvenile antics across the U.S. Oh well, one day the world will be rid of people who live in the stone age and will be populated by people who are forward thinking and acting. I only hope the U.S.will still be there at that time. Conservatism and that stupid agenda of forcing religious bias and ignorance into the schools may just well put your nation into the dust bin of history. Too bad. I still have some family there and I tell them constantly to come over here or t go to some other place where people are not treated like wage slaves.
Sufidreamer - Greece is great! I love the blue of the water! How long have you lived there?
You are correct writer rider, that some sort of balance is good depending on the country and the people who live there. In Spain mostly we have socialism in our government policies but a limited form of free enterprise in our economy. While we have government sponsored & paid for medicine, we also have private hospitals and doctors who seem to be doing all right.
Some companies are privately run and do OK, while others receive benefits from the government. Farmers get subsidies and grow limited acres, while setting others aside for new green projects such as replanting the forests that once covered much of Spain. We hope to ride out global warming by increasing trees and thus oxygen in the atmosphere.
Ivan, between you and Sufidreamer I can't decide between Spain or Greece!
Thank you for this piece. It really makes me feel a little better. Maybe the rest of the world will be able to clean up the mess we've made and sweep us under the rug of history.
I find it amazing that the u.s. has the nerve to proclaim itself a democracy. We have destroyed more democracies in the name of profit than any nation in history.
Thanks again. Great work.
Cheers Ivan - only a couple of years, and still trying to get to grips with the language. We certainly have no intention of leaving!
Better stock up on supplies - it looks like CWB is coming to the Med to watch the end of civilization :)
At least I won't be coming to bring you "democracy" at gunpoint!
Certainly sir, you are correct in many ways, and to put it simply all institutions of governance are viable and functionally stable, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, Democracy, etc...The only factor which determines whether or not there is despotic and tyrannical rule is, do the people control their government, or does the government control their people. The American people have lost control of their government, and many of the citizens are unhappy about it...and working tirelessly to mitigate the crisis.
There is nothing wrong with Capitalism. It is this country's governmental policies which have allowed a Federal Reserve Banking Cartel to manipulate and decimate the economy and the moral character of this nation, as they bend on a course seeking a New World Order power grasp which intends to force all nations under the same international bank.
Urimidden, thanks for the comment. Personally I could not see myself living in a country withunlimited greed ruling over the rights of the citizens. We tried that here in Spain for centuries and it didn't work. People starved, nobles ruled and only the wealthy and powerful were ever happy.
In the U.S. you threw off the reains of the nobles by birth and accepted being ruled by the nobles of wealth. Capitalism like any other form of economy is fine if the people want it, but I laugh when some people in the U.S. try to link socialism with evil as if it's some form of disease. We tried capitalism, didn't like it, we tried unlimited monarchy, didn't like it, we tried fascism, didn't like it, and now the majority of people in Spain think our mild form of socialism, without the hard-lined dogma, is just fine.
The only problem we have with U.S. capitalism is that when you guys mess up, we suffer. Keep capitalism is you want to, but regulate the greedy so they don't mess things up for you and me.
Again, thanks for writing!
Socialism sucks!
Bernie1936, why does it suck? Why would it be any better or worse than any other form of government? Many people, perhaps yourself, envision socialism as being like East Berlin in the 1960's without ever having seen or lived in a nation where the people decided that truly democratic socialism does not suck and in fact is pretty good for most people.
In my opinion pure Capitalism sucks because it is inherently the tool of the few and powerful to keep the many from ever attaining a life of self-power, self-awareness and self-actualizing. Capitalism feeds from the greed in a human being without feeding the need of most of the people. And to me, that sucks. Do not fool yourself into ever believing that a purely capitalist society will ever be anything other than what you read about in a Charles Dickens novel. The U.S. is, like Spain, a mixture of socialism and democracy, and if you hate socialism, then please write to your senators and representatives to repeal social security, unemployent programs, medicare and other purely socialist programs that your government put into place.
In Spain and in Europe socialism tempered with democracy has proven fairly good for us, and we even have people who are entrepreneurs who thrive, so please do not confuse European socialism with the old USSR and Eastern Block communists. Night and day difference, as you would find out if you but dig a little deeper into the way things work outside of the borders of the U.S.
Thanks for your comment.
Well, Bernie1936, I guess silence is the best answer when you have nothing other than saying "Socialism sucks!" to give us. Thanks for the comment. I still hope to hear more in defence of your argument.
You're wasting your time Ivan. bernie already knows he's right and nothing you say, nor any evidence you produce to the contrary will change his mind.
Great Hub, Ivan, and thanks for sticking your neck out! I think that when people get hooked on an ideology instead of our common humanity, that sucks! Socialism has been very good for people and helped to end a lot of suffering. Capitalism has maybe helped some but overall it has caused much suffering.
What the US has done in many parts of the world is support inhuman tyrants in the name of democracy and capitalism and that's why so many people are anti-US. In Africa the US supported, both politically and financially, people like Mobutu Sese Seko, who simply used the US support to milk their people, trample over their humanity and stash millions away so they could live in absurd luxury while their people died of hunger and disease, all thanks to Uncle Sam.
Good to keep one's eyes and ears open and treat all people with respect and dignity, whether they are labelled socialist or communist or capitalist or whatever.
Thanks for stimulating the thoughts
Love and peace
Tony
Thanks, Tonymac04 for the comment, and I have no problem with any nation listening to the will of the people and setting the form of government to fit that. That is why I think the recent unrest in Iran is going to have ramifications for their future, and I applaud Obama for saying very little about it. I see good ol John McCain wants to send in the Marines again, but little does he realize the extent to which the Iranians will forget the present problems and band together if they even start to think the U.S. is about to intervene again!
Until Obama came along the U.S. has done pretty much all it can to muck up the waters in its relations with Iran, and the current illegitimate president in Iran will do all he can to make the U.S. the villain, a position which will be greatly assisted if the U.S. government starts interferring over there.
If Iran want democracy it will have to come from within, as it would have in Iraq if only the U.S. (and Spain as well, because were we involved in Bush's war for a time) had left things alone there. Saddam Hussein would have been thrown out and someone else would have come in, and perhaps this time they would have got what they wanted instead of what other nations wanted to force on them.
Why can't people like McCain understand they want to do this themselves and simly respect the abilities of the Iranian people to work out their own problems?
This is for someone emailed me a private note: Socialism in Spain does not recognize Marxist ideas. We are a Democratic Socialist nation, much like Germany or France, and our socialism has to do more with programs to help people, not programs that take away private enterprise or freedoms. That was Soviet socialism, a dictatorship of the party, as it were. We have many parties and sometimes anti-socialist parties win elections. Then later the pendulum swings back and left-leaning Democratic parties take power again.
So no, to the person who wishes to remain anonymous, we are not a communist nation. Far from it. In many respects we are much like the U.S. except that we have about five and sometimes six "major" parties we can vote for, as well as some regional parties that only have votes from their geographic areas, such as the Basque Party which draws its strength mostly from the far north of Spain, in the Basque regions. the major difference however is that we have a lot of social programs that help people survive life in an uncertain world. We are proud of and pleased with that.
I have never understood why people feel the need to do that. If they have something to say, why not in public?
They are talking about a country that shook off the yoke of facism - the Spanish are not going to give up their freedom anytime soon. Much the same in the Totalitarian Communist Hell that is Greece. ;)
You say that socialism isn't the enemy, but it is. The one thing capitalism does better than any other economic system is reward innovation. If you innovate something that people find useful and helpful in their lives, capitalism rewards you with profit. That's why most innovations in the world come from the United States. Once they came from Europe, when Europe begain its experiment with liberty and only began to falter as Europe embraced socialism.
That is not to say that innovation from socialist nations. The Soviet Union, after all, launched Sputnik and put a man in orbit first. They were not able, however, to keep up with the United States, who not only replicated those feats, but exceeded them by sending men to the moon, not once, but several times and brought them safely home again. Innovations from socialist nations are much less common because there is no incentive to innovate.
What you say may be true about the standard of living, although I nurse private doubts. The pace of innovation has raised the standard of living for everyone far beyond what it was during the Roman Empire, which could be said to be a golden age of humanity. All of that has been due to liberty and rewarding innovation. Without that, at the very best, humanity will stagnate. At worse, we will begin to regress.
Never really bought into that innovation thing - what is innovation? Just picking one area that I know well, the UK leads the world in fisheries science and aquaculture. Not headline grabbing, but innovative all the same. Innovation is not all about sending people to the moon, but also the smaller and unnoticed things that improve life.
We have had this conversation before, but some of us do have liberty - come to Greece anytime, and tell a Greek man that he is not free ;)
Thanks, ledefencetech. I am not certain if you understand that socialism that is alive today in Spain is not even close the the stifling system that was in the old USSR. We remade socialism as a form of government that treats people with dignity and takes care of them in hard times, asks them to take care of others in good times.
Our government does not prevent free enterprise. It encourages it. If you look at Spain today you will see many small businesses that do rather well. They have no greater failure rate than businesses in the U.S. Large businesses also exist in private hands. we mix capitalist business ideas with socialist humanity based programs. Yes, we pay for services rendered by the government but those are vital services that keep us healthy, help when we are unemployed, and take care of our seniors (we call ourselves Third Age over here, retired folk like me.). We have cheap rail service, and just like farmers in the U.S., our farmers are reimbursed by the government.
The main difference is a general happiness in our lifestyle, which is not driven by harsh feelings of material needs and is full of relaxing moments where we can stop and smell the roses. I see a lot of very stressed out U.S. tourists here and I believe that your lifestyle is killing you. Your need for consumerism is also killing you as a nation. No nationcan keep up that level of buying when wages are so low per capita. Your current minimum wage is $8.00 per hour, if I read the news correctly. Here that is a ridiculously low wage for any job. People are paid enough to provide a living for themselves. And those that can't find work are compensated and helped to find work.
Many people in the U.S. unfortunately equate modern European socialism with old COmmunist era nations. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Modern socialism dumps the old Marxist ideology that was taken by Communist economies.
Your equation of the old USSR to modern europe is completely off-base. Not even close. Most European nations are more modern socialist than most people may know. Most people seem happy enough with this system. It probably wouldn't work in the U.S. although many programs you have there are modern socialist in nature. Come to Spain, go to Greece, travel Europe and ask people if they want the same system as you have in the U.S. I bet eight out of ten would say "No way!"
thanks for the comment!
Sufi, I remember that after WWII there was a revolution over there. Many people left at that time, including some friends of mine who came to Spain and dwell here in Madrid. Our Spanish Queen also came from Greece. we generally like our royal couple & famly. they don't meddle in politics and Juan Carlos saved our nation from a minor revolt several decades ago.
I believe people in Greece are generally as free as and as happy as people here in Spain. I find that a lot of Germans and other Northern Europeans come here and find it hard to get used to a more relaxed lifestyle. Except for while at futbol games most people in Spain seem pretty mellow most of the time.
Hi Ivan,
A few left during the civil war, just after WWII, and many more during the facist dictatorship of the late sixties and early seventies. Like the Spanish, the Greeks really know what it is like to suffer under civil war and totalitarianism - might go some way to explaining why they seem to have similar outlooks on life.
We just had a nice couple visit today, Jehovah's Witnesses that we met in town one day and invited for a coffee. The lady is an American, from Arizona, and she has fallen in love with the lifestyle here. With this Hub in mind, I brought up the freedom question. You can guess the answer - Greece has liberty, too, more than in her part of the US. ;)
I have a hard time believing that. We currently in the US have a system or Worker's compensation in case of injury. In the case of my fiance, who works for the state government, the state is self-insured. They set aside moneys to pay for workman's comp cases. She recently injured her shoulder and has spent the last six months fighting these bureaucrats. First they didn't want to do an MRI, then her doctor couldn't tell why she was still in pain, she was referred to a specialist who met with her for 15 min to tell her that he didn't see anything wrong with her and released her to full duty. She's been in so much pain, that at times she's vomited. When she attempted to call the workman's comp case manager, neither she, nor the HR department at her job, nor could the case worker's supervisor get in touch with her. If this had been a private company, the lack of customer service alone would have doomed them.
At her last meeting with the doctor, she was given a new prescription for a stronger painkiller. One night she got up got the keys to the car and almost started driving somewhere. She's gotten up at night and had conversations with me that she doesn't remember the next day. Yep, while on these drugs, she's a sleepwalker. Finally, after weeks, she got authorization to see the moron doctor who released her and lo and behold, now she needs surgery. It has to wait though until Workman's comp gives the OK. Given their track record the doc thinks four weeks, I say four months.
Socialized medicine has an incentive built within it to try to deny as much use of services as possible. Especially if you have a chronic condition. Now if you have a rare chronic condition, you probably will get the care you need, but if it's more common like diabetes, say, since so many people have it and are consuming resources, it's better to let them die off so you don't have to pay anymore. In the former case, I'm thinking of certain genetic conditions that don't show up very often in the general population. The latter group consists of conditions like heart disease, hypertension, renal failure, etc.
As an aside Ivan, my mother's family is originally from Spain via Mexico. While my knowledge of Spanish history is not as extensive as that of say the US or England, I have studied the causes and consequences of Spain's siglo de oro. I find many common parallels between their foreign policy and current US foreign policy. We could learn a lot from the Spanish Hapsburg's example.
Our workman's comp equivalent is pretty good here. As I said if you think old USSR or Cuba or Venezuela you have the wrong inmpressionb of European health care. Yes at times there are horror stories, it happens. But I have hypertension, I get excellent mnedical care. I have type 2 diabetes and I get excellent medical care, including several weeks in the summer & winter to go to spas to lose weight and eat healthy. I also get frequent free check-ups from a doctor I like and whom I chose out of several doctors at our local clinic.
The emphasis in Spain is to make the people healthy, not to trim budgets or cut costs. Doctors may not make as much as they do in the U.S. but they make good salaries and are happy enough they don't normally leave looking for greener pastures. A few who did came back because of the hurry-hurry lifestyler elsewhere and the trade-off between freetime and work is not in their favor.
Yes, at times we still have bureaucratic screwups just like all countries.
There was a story going around in the U.S. that some pregnant lady had to wait a year for an appointment but it is not true, in case you heard of that one. I had to laugh, it was so ridiculous! If I wanted to I could get private insurance and go to private doctors as well. My dentist is a private practitioner. I use his services because I lke the way he treats my teeth, and I pay out of my own pocket. I could get excellent free coverage but I chose not to.
I believe the United States has the ability to be a beacon in the world, but that often people there get too full of themselves and begin to think that people in other countries are backwards and incapable of making decidions that fit their way of life. You certainly have a lot of great things that the U.S. has done aorund the world, and then there are things that just don't make sense. the recent remarks, for example, by Senator McCain about Iran are completely non-sensical. To impose on the people of Iran any interference from the U.S would backlash horribly. The best thing the U.S. can do is express sympathy and stay out of it. the Iranians are intelligent people and they wiull bring about any changes they need to create. It may take time, but I have trust they are quite capable of doing for themselves whatever needs to be done.
When you're talking about any of our politicians lecturing to the world, ignore them. That nonsense is just for domestic consumption. Likewise when I hear foreign politicians take the US to task for something I ignore them because what they say is for domestic consumption. One of my greatest wishes is for the US to get out of the Great Game of nations and not get embroiled in the petty rivalries around the world.
Ever since I realized what kind of disaster socialism was in USSR, I was puzzled by European more or less socialist countries. Spain is even not the most advanced of them, talk Sweden or - god forbid - Iceland. Wasn't it a flagship of European socialism?
I am not going to draw any conclusions just yet, I am going to wait it out and watch how things with this crisis pan out for other European countries, and would they follow Iceland on its path of bankruptcy because of spending way more than producing or not. Then I'll have my opinion on this topic :)
Strange as it seems I find myself agreeing with Ivan the terrible on capiitalism as it is and has been practiced in the u.s. and elsewhere Germany,England,japan,Hong Kong,China,and even Russia. They all have their very rich,and their very poor.It's the middle class that the very rich are worried about.They don't want to be displaced by new products and ideas that would force them to change the way things are,and it scares them.
The very rich capitalists don't want competition from the middleclass capitalists,if they can help it.
As for the poor,neither very rich capitalists or middleclass capitalists are too concerned with the poor,except for the cost to their pocket books.There are socialist programs in the us to house and feed the poor,such as section 8 housing,and what we use to call foodstamp programs ,now they use cards instead of stamps There is one problem. with the program ,they can't get cleaning supplies ,such as soaps,and detergents for cleaning themselves or their clothes.That is kind of stupid.But they can buy prepared foods like birthday cakes.
Look at what the very rich get away with in the u.s.
The majority of people wanted to put restrictions on the very wealthy ,because they knew that the leaders were either from the wealthy class or were controlled through bribery and favoritism from the wealthy class.
The income tax was originally intended only for the rich,and those who worked for the federal government which was considered a priviledge and priviledges could be taxed.
But the foxes were already in charge of the chicken coupe,and would never allow themselves to be outfoxed by the chickens. Hence the income tax law passed ,but instead of taxing the rich as was intended,because the rich created tax shelters for themselves while at the same time creating tax exempt organizatons that they could use to control the thinking of the masses by placating them into thinking that what those organizations were doing was benevelence for it's own sake,when in fact they were only intended to be benevelent to the wealthy class as tax shelters as well propaganda machines.If they have other redeeming qualities,they are side effects and not neceessarily intended.Ronald Reagan complained of the ninety percent tax he was paying at one time only because he was not smart enough to know ,or wasn't privy to the knowledge needed to sidestep the income tax laws
Misha, my friends from Sweden point to the the influx of non-European immigrants to many of the problems there, as do many of my British friends. Not being racist here, just that people who collect from a system they never paid into causes a lot of stress on the nation as a whole.
Sweden and Norway have seen a lot of people moving there because of the open nature of benefitrs, and as I have been trying to discover, it seems that those nations are now becoming more strict on just who can claim benefits, etc.
Spain is not in any way shape or form a copy of the old USSR or even the old Eastern Block nations. We have internally a vibrant economy, although our import/export market is suffering becuase of the problems caused by Wall Street as of late. We also have very strict limitations on immigration, although we get a lot of North Africans coming here illegally. We also had a huge number of Polish coming over the past 20 years or so, and some Russians and people from the old USSR.
For the most part people who are here illegally are sent back home. It is not a racist thing. Spain allows immigration but it has to be legal. People have to work and support themselves. That is something ingrained into our society over the past fifty years or so.
Just the same, we do see a lot of people coming in also from Asia who now a small business people, owning their own stores, etc. We are socialist in our government aid programs but private business normally thrives here as elsewhere. So for those who think USSR when we mention socialism, we laugh as politely as we can. This is a new socialism that has kept the best parts, helping people get a hand up, and dropped the Marxist garbage from the party.
And like any other nation we have at times elected non-socialist parties, but after a short time in office they are set aside and people willingly go back to PSOE and other parties that better represent the majority of our people.
I was never in the old USSR but I have heard the horror stories from expats from Russia and the Ukraine. I would not have wanted to have lived there either! But is America making the same mistakes as they did? Spending so much to keep its world domination that the people are losing out? I have to wonder.
ledefensetech, I agree that the U.S. would be better off worrying about making things inside its own borders better off than it does by fighting and ibnterfering in other nations. Your former president Bush and his lackey Cheney thought differently, however, and apparently, at least in 2004, the American People voted a majority in theior favor to keep going with those policies.
Of course we in Europe are directly affected by the goings on in the U.S. You have a huge economy, dominate the world in economics as well as military, etc. But from my point of view the U.S. is more worried about political battles than it is about keeping itself fresh and new. Your highways are a joke, your railsystem backs up for thousands of miles, and you can't even build a decent car that gets great mileage or that is competitive with your Japanese and other foreign carmakers! Something stinks over there and frankly, we can smell it all the way across the ocean.
Europe is not perfect but we believe in making our nations and our union strong from within, and we want very much to be free of the ill effects that your economic woes often causes in other parts of the world. You do many of the same things we do, making economically socialist programs part of your life, yet you accuse us of being "tainted" by socialism! If you could only see us as we see you, maybe you'd get a grip and correct the many ills of your own country before you try to reform the rest of the world. I would love to see a truly great, noble America rise up from the petty politics it finds itself mired in these days.
[quote=Ivan the Terrible]
Of course we in Europe are directly affected by the goings on in the U.S. You have a huge economy, dominate the world in economics as well as military, etc. But from my point of view the U.S. is more worried about political battles than it is about keeping itself fresh and new. Your highways are a joke, your railsystem backs up for thousands of miles, and you can't even build a decent car that gets great mileage or that is competitive with your Japanese and other foreign carmakers! Something stinks over there and frankly, we can smell it all the way across the ocean.[/quote]
Now, now Ivan that sounds a bit envious. Or reveling in the reversed fortunes of another people. What you don't seem to understand is socialism is responsible for many of the woes of the US. We can't build cars because the unions have a stranglehold on our auto builders. So much legacy debt has built up over the years that car prices have gone higher and higher. When GM renegotiated with the unions and got the pension off their back, immediately they could afford to shave $1,000 off every car they made. However the unions didn't want to talk about fixing the problem when it would have made a difference, they wanted the gravy train to keep rolling as long as possible. Japanese automakers don't have those types of legacy costs, yet. In another decade or two they will and Korean and Chinese cars will cost less than Japanese cars and they will fail. Unless they can change to meet the new circumstances. In business, you must be able to control costs if you want to survive. Unions have never allowed our businesses to control costs and that's why union controlled industries do so poorly.
As for infrastructure, well Spain's infrastructure wasn't doing too well towards the end of Franco's reign. I'm sure you know why. It's easy to build that stuff, but it's a bear to maintain. Maintenance gets more expensive as time goes on. If the infrastructure was private there would be an incentive for maintenance. If a private road doesn't get maintained, people don't drive on it and you lose money on that road. State maintained road on the other hand don't have the built in incentive to maintain. So things are put off as money is siphoned off elsewhere due to political pressure and soon enough, things start to fall apart.
I noticed that Spain's birthrate is about 1.3% and declining over time. How do you expect to pay for all of these wonderful socialist programs when your population is decreasing? In fact, soon enough, you'll start to see the cracks because there will be more elderly using those services than young people paying into the whole thing to keep it going. That's part of the problem we have here. Just as Japan should be a warning to us, so should our problems be a warning to you.
Ledefensetech: Actually Spain's roads, expecially the Nacional system, is very modern and well maintained. We do have some toll roads, but whether they are owned by a private individual or the province they are in, I don't know. We have one in Segovia province just north of Madrid. We also have a very fast train in RENFE, the Spainish railroad, that gets from Madrid to Seville in a few hours. You might be very surprised at how modern Spain actually is these days.
In and around Madrid you'd be hard pressed to say the birth rate is declining. We have an older population mostly in the country, while young people live mostly in the cities. Our streets are clean, well maintained and our railroads run generally on time. We have a lot of commuter-railcars that race across the country.
Are we envious? Perhaps so, because most Spaniards see American TV programs and believe everyone lives the great life. There was a time when people here actually thought most Americans lived like the characters in the old TV show Dallas. As for me I lived in the U.S. until shortly after I returned from Viet Na, so I remember a lot of things as they were in the 50's and 60's. Granted, times have moved on, but when I visit there I am constantly surprised by the sad sgape of many highways, the sagging infrasctucture and the lack of decent railways for people to use. I also have read that cargo trains back up every day because of the lack of rails from Californis to the Midwest, and from the Midwest to the East Coast.
As for unions, we have them and the are much stronger here than over there. Unions here are more politically oriented and have a huge say in things. However, companies also have rights and each side jealously guards what they have gained over the years. Another thing about unions: where would workers be if there had never been unions? I know many unions in the U.S. became corrupt at the top, and that's too bad. Ours have rarely been involved in scandals, although some do occur, causing a rapid change of leadership. Workers here do not want greedy, self-interested union leaders. they are held to the union charter and kept on a close leash.
But again I reiterate that Spain is not like the old USSR and the comparison with Communist socialism is like comapring the U.S. capitalist system to what Charles Dickens wrote about. Capitalism evolved into a different system and so has socialism. When I read Dicken I know that capitalism today is not at all like the merchantile capitalism of the 1830's. Socialism in Europe today is not like the political socialism of the 1930's. No 5 year plans, no massive take over of private industries by bureaucrats, no gulags, etc. The goverment does hold shares in some companies, such as Iberia, and I hate to admit but Iberia is generally a very poorly run airline, but not because of partial government ownership. It just stinks.
Spain under Franco was not very modernized: the factories were old, the roads a joke and only the trains ran on time. But within 10 years of his death Spain was rebuilding. A lot of Spaniards moved to Germany in the 60' & 70' to find work because the wages were higher. Now Germans move to Spain because the life style is much better. We have a lot of expat Brits and Germans, a fair number of expat Americans, mostly former military, and also people arriving from Mexico and South America.
As for maintaining the life style we have now, there are checks and balances to prevent spending from overtaking income. About 30 years ago most people did not pay the hacienda, our version of an income tax. With VAT and hacienda the government pays for its bills and seems on the face of it to have no deep debts.
But certainly you have to know that even with our differences Europe does look up to the U.S. because of its promise, not always because of it policies. We did not like your war in Iraq, even though we took part. We still support the effort in Afghanistan, to my knowledge, and of course we are in NATO (OTAN as we call it.). We want an economically strong U.S., but wish the U.S. would take care of itself better. It can be done, and if it rtakes a bit of modern socialism to do it, the go for it. If not, then go for that too, but don't criticize us like we are children if we decide on a different course economically.
And as always, forget the old USSR model. That is passe and no longer used, especially not here.
Thanks for the insightful comments!
I think you're confusing my views against socialism and the USSR. While they share similarities, I understand that they are very different. Spain, in many ways is like the US in the 1950's economically. You threw out Franco and his outmoded fascist economic policies. That accounts for the boom in Spain's economy. Just like in China when they began leaving the trappings of Communism behind, their economy started booming.
Because you started from such a low point after Franco, things look like they're going great. There is trouble ahead, however. Look, really look at the deficits your government runs and ask yourself, how do they pay for it. Deficit spending always pushes the costs of a thing into the future. That's the problem I have with socialism. You won't pay the costs, your kids or more likely your grandkids will. It's like social security here. Our grandparents didn't really pay into the system, but they got it anyway. Now we're not going to have enough workers soon to keep the system going. It certainly won't be there for my generation when we get that age. Not unless the hike the tax rate to 80% for everyone, not just the rich.
As for the US, we've about reached the limit of defecit spending. Thank God, the rest of the world is starting to get a clue and are cutting back on lending us money. Because you know, you won't get it back. Our politicians will default on the loans first. Benjamin Franklin said it best: "Neither a lender nor a borrower be".
So to recap, Spain looks great now because they're on the upward curve of the boom-bust cycle. It may take a generation or two but sooner or later you'll suffer the effects of a bust. I'd be willing to bet it will come sometime during the maturity of your grandkids or great-grandkids. Of course you'll most likely be in the afterlife and I'll be an old man when that happens, but sure as the sun rises in the east, it will come. You and your people can learn from us and make changes before it's too late.
Again, my friend LDT, thanks for your comments. What the future holds I can not tell. As for Social Security from the U.S. I don't receive it over here. I worked and paid into my retirement here in Spain when I worked. I still enjoy the benefits of that. Actually Franco began the social security system here based somewhat on the U.S. model, and since he was a Fascist, or a National Socialist in the old usage of the meaning, he also started other programs that continue today, such as health benefits. Things were pretty bad otherwise under his rule, with no political freedom. He unfortunately did not mimic Democracies inthat respect. People were fined for holding hands in public or kissing on the street. Many people had to leave to find decent work. Some stayed in their adopted country, others are only now coming home.
We do have a lot of expats here and tons of tourism, so Spain is becoming a wealthy country, perhaps in spite of itself. Tourism helps pay for our social programs, and there is, to my knowledge, a healthy surplus in that fund. If it ever became low on funds people would take to the streets to fill the coffers once more, so I have my doubts that it will run out.
Spain is also becoming big in manufacturing, especially for South America and India, so our private sector is holding its own for the most part. But tourismis still the big money maker, and as long as Northern Europeans love the coast, it will most likely continue to boom.
Anyway, again thanks for your insights.
Again, Spain is in a boom phase. Normally that wouldn't be a problem, but look at what people were saying here a few years ago when they believed that housing prices would never go down. Oops. The main problem I have with socialism is that there is no way to say if you're making a mistake that will have long term consequences. Once enough of those mistakes pile up, then you get what we have here in the States today. Look at South America, between the Peronists and military juntas they elect they've bounced between the two extremes for decades now. Boom and bust, boom and bust. Argentina is particularly known for this. The business cycle is mostly the result of government interference in the economy. The more they interfere, the faster the booms and busts.
And it's not that I don't believe in helping people, I just think that the unintended consequences of socialism invalidate the "good" you get from that system. There has to be a better way. I'm glad you used the Nationalist Socialist description of Franco. Facism is just a subset of socialism. The benefits are supposed to accrue to the nation. Communism too is a subset of socialism. There the beneifts are supposed to accrue to the workers. It's interesting to note that, in the end, the beneficiaries are worse off than they were before they adopted their respective brand of socialism.
Well, IDT, so far people have been able touse their benefits through thick and thin over here. Of course economially things are changing. AS I said the economic troubles in the US are now world wide, and maybe it's not fair to blame the US for all these troubles, but your system of swinging back and forth between Republican philosophies and Democratic philosophies in economics and governance are really just a mess. First you have tax and spend, then borrow and spend, and now again more borrow and spend, under Clinton, Bush & Obama respectively. Your debt is rather large and it seems that most of your indusctry has fled for other places.
We in Europe have not benefited from this flight of industry from the US but Asia certainly has. Your nation is also buying heavily from Asia, so ou debt seems to increase because your buy and sell balances with Asia are skewed infavor of debt, on top of the borrowing you are doing.
As I said, I wish the US well because you are the engine right now of the world economy. We in Europe are trying hard to displace you, and if we succeed then it will be a different story, but until then Asia seems best poised to succeed in that respect.
Once oil becomes less of must-have commodity the Middle & Near East will fade because they have no induistrial infrastucture in place. That will leave the BIg Three, Asia, Europe with Russia, and the US. Europe & Russia have a tenuous and often antogonistic relationship.
if i my add to the views here, as a canadian who has worked in / been laid off through boom+bust cycles from unionized and non unionized industry and recently got a civil service job. all this with the distant hope of building/paying off my own home.
historically, unfettered capitalism in the past created problems, but also helped loosen control by monarchs.just like protestants made mistakes but brought the reformation to a europe strangled by catholicism.
unions played an important role through the industrial revolution, but the public sector senior unionists are now clearly in competition with corrupt politicians to steal as much tax money as possible while doing little for the public.nonunion private industrial wages have stagnated for over 2 decades, while costs have inflated, leaving us less productive and shrinking our middle class.
we still have a massive per capita debt(rivaling the u.s.) accumulated from years of deficite "job creation" spending starting from our socialist pierre trudeau days along with massive entitlement expectations of canadians.
the only reason canada hasn't collapsed is because of conservative bank loan regulations, which too many nations (not just the u.s.) have long ignored.
there needs to be reasonable regulation (not bureaucratic strangulation) of business, but we sure can't allow government to outgrow the nation that supports it- otherwise you do end up completely socialist, where politicians and unions vote themselves all people's money, and real wealth creators like enterpreneurs/inventors leave. we really need a single flat rate income tax(no deduction loopholes)with a luxury consumption tax like switzerland, since our very rich and poor pay nothing.
another socialist evil that needs ending is the politicians taking our currency off the precious metal standard-allowing them to print money for social spending far out of proportion to productivity/real wealth creation-causing inflation and adding to the boom/bust cycle that everyone blames on capitalism.
Let me say one thing. WE ARE NOT SPAIN! No offense. If you want to be like spain- got to spain. America didnt become the greatest country the world has ever seen because we adopted spain politics. Look at Spain the path they have chosen (socialism) made their country the way it is. Look at American(Non socialism, pro capitalism) and look at us, enough said. Has America forgotten how to lead? Why are we looking at lesser countries for guidance? ( not refering to "less humans" but that America is better in every "category" ) Immigrants die to get a chance to live in America, not spain. In America a man can keep what he earns, Spain you must share it. Just like the spoiled immature kids playing in a sand box.
Jaynap01, guess you didn't read the part when I said I did go to Spain. I live there now and have since I served in the US armed forces in Viet Nam. I know the USA is not Spain, (nor would I want it to be), but your country's right-wing people whine and cry about socialism as if it were some disease. It is not. Modern socialism is a legitimate form of government, and believe it or not, when you look at your own social security & medicare programs, your health programs for your elected leaders, and many other programs your people have come to rely on, you already have a form of modern socialism, just like Spain & Europe.
Right now Spain is a prosperous nation, hurt by your AIG corporate leaders' greed, yes, but willing and able to do well enough on its own. Some people in the US are griping about universal health care, well, Spain and many other nations recently were shown to have better, faster and more effective health care than the US. Why? Because so many of your citizens are simply denied health care. They can't get it. It seems odd that a nation as powerful as the US can't afford to give health care to its most needy citizens.
Before you brag so openly about how Capitalism is so great, remember that capitalism brought your nation to its knees many, many times. From the hey-day of robber baron capitalism to the corporate greed and lack of proper government regulations of the past few decades, capitalism has given you a few wealthy people and a lot of working people who think they are happy when they are being ripped off.
If capitalism was the panacea, the answer to all our problems, then that would mean your nation, as the alleged leading proponent of free markets and capitalism, would never have economic problems and everyone would be working.
I'm glad you are happy where you are, and I am very happy where I live. Run your country as you wish but remember that with power comes great responsibility. If you allow your huge corporations to become larger yet, as seems inevitable, you will reap the consequences of companies too large to fail, and that means more trillion dollar bailouts and other programs of corporate welfare.
Capitalism? It's not what you think it is. It's all smoke and mirrors, just as bread and circuses in Rome kept the population docile while they were being robbed to make the wealth and powerful more wealthy and powerful, and also inviolate, just like your AIG executives.
In Spain we keep what we earn as well, so I have no idea where you got that idea. You probably pay more in taxes than we do! We just get better use of our tax money, it seems. We are neither spoiled nor immature and I dare say that smacks of elitism, another sin the US portrays in its dealings around the world.
Immigrants don't have to die for a chance to live here. We have many people who want to come here as well, because we are a blend of modern socialism (not to be confused with USSR communism or old-time 1940's socialism, which was a disaster.) Economically we are probably just as capitalist as you are, with restraints against greed, and socially we take the best socilalism had to offer. Check out the facts before you make silly statements like you did above.
You don't need to look to "lesser countries" for guidance. Just live up to your own ideals for a change. It's easy to talk and chant "USA! USA!" but walk the walk instead of just talking the talk.
Honestly, when I see throngs of people shouting "USA! USA!" I think of Iran crowds shouting "Death to Infidels!" It has the same sound of ignorant arrogance.
Welll how about we stop using hot push-button words like socialism, and actually discuss the things these words are supposed to be describing....
Socialism is not your friend at all if by that you mean Stalinism. I mean the Soviet Union was happy calling itself "socialist", and I am sure we can agree that there are many aspects of Soviet society the rest of us could do without, thank you.
Also, a lot of pretty misguided socialists in the West supported the Soviet Union, (idiotically, in my view, to be frank), while at the same time being the same people pushing for a New Deal that included welfare, unemployment insurance, workers' protections, and, in some countries, free health care (not free, of course, but paid by taxes...).
Let's sort this out now -- socialism of the kind the Soviet Union had is probably not a very good idea, in general. It may have had some benefits, but frankly I am glad Stalin was stopped at Berlin and not Dublin.
HOWEVER, if anyone is going to argue that the right of workers to be protected from abusive practices, or the right to affordable health care, is bad, just because, for some, this is "socialism", then I could not agree less.
I have lived in Margaret Thatcher's Britain. Mrs. Thatcher was NOT a socialist. In Britain she is thought of by many as a force that eroded social programs, including health care, and pushed unfettered free enterprise as far as she could. BUT, EVEN under her, Britain STILL maintained a tax-funded, universal health care system.
In short, before anyone starts pointing at Europeans and calling them socialists, they should consider this example: Thatcherism did as much as any force in the world to promote private enterprise, the silent hand of the market, globalization, and free trade. But STILL, Thatcherites did not touch such "socialist" institutions as health care and education... and that is because, they are not "socialist" institutions in the SOVIET sense...
For more on this see my hub: http://hubpages.com/hub/Is-America-the-Greatest-Co
"No, we don't. Forty-seven million people lack insurance. Of the remaining 85% of the population, or 258 million people, polls show high satisfaction with the current coverage. Indeed, a 2006 poll by ABC News, the Kaiser Family Foundation and USA Today found 89% of Americans were happy with their own health care.
As for the estimated 47 million not covered by health insurance, 20 million can afford to buy it, according to a study by former CBO Director June O'Neill. Most of the other 27 million are single and under 35, with as many as a third illegal aliens.
When it's all whittled down, as few as 12 million are unable to buy insurance — less than 4% of a population of 305 million. For this we need to nationalize 17% of our nation's $14 trillion economy and change the current care that 89% like? "
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=3
Capitalism is like a knife, held by the invisible hand, it can be used to cut bread for all who are willing to participate or forced to stab someone in the back( AIG,.. etc) AIG should fail, not bailed out.
Enough said.
Adsense Strategies, I would start out by saying that socialism as it exists in Spain and Europe today is as different from Stalinist Russia as the US is from Panama under Manuel Noriega. There was nothing is practice that was really socialist about the USSR under Stalin, since he was a dictator, just as Noriega was. But Noriega proclaimed his nation as a Capitalist nation. Does that make all capitalism like Noriega's Panama?
Obviously not, yet it is to the discredit of the U.S. school system that people equate socialism with Stalin. We should just as easily equate Capitalism with Hitler, since he had basically a dictatorship operating something resembling a capitalist system.
My next question would be, what, very hinestly, has capitalism done for you? I know what it has done for the Rockefeller family, for Bill gates and other extremely wealthy individuals and families, but what has it done for you? If there had been no unions early on, another invention of socialism, most workers today would be getting inadequate wages. Health benefits? What company, intersted only in the bottomline, would spend money of health insurance? Unempllyment insurance? Forget it. Not in the interest of the company. Social Security? Sounds like one of those darned socialist programs to me!
Thepoint of my essay is that the U.S. is already a modern, mildly socialist nation and no amount of argument can alter that fact. It simply is. For U.S. citizens to cry out "We're against socialism!" when they enjoy benefiots of socialist porograms, founded in real socialist nations (not Stalinist dictatorships), seems a bit disengenuous to me.
If the U.S. really wants to be only capitalist and not a tainted bit socialist, then it should drop thesocilaist-inspired programs it now has. Take people off social security, take them off medicare, do away with unemployment benefits and health coverage at work. Do away with all the programs that the unions gained for workers, even for workers not in a union. How about sweat shops returning? that was an invention of unfettered capitalism. Child labor, 10 year olds working in the mines and factories, etc. Very capitalist.
That is what it would take to make the U.S. a truly and strictly capitalist nation. Now I ask you, is that what you want?
Socialism in its modern and true sense is not a disease or evil. It simply is another form of economics.
Jaynap01, 2006 was a century ago in light of current events. I have no doubt that people who have great health benefits enjoy them, but as for the people who don't, I have no idea who they are or what ethnic group they come from, but is it in your national interest to have unhealthy people in your nation?
You mention illegal aliens. We control immigration more strictly than it seems the U.S. does but we have people here coming across from North Africa without papers, and they live in our cities. They still get health care because we don't want them dying on our streets. We have people from Islamic nations that come here under the wire, but they still get benefits. We have retirees from the rest of Europe, as well as people like me from America, and we get benefits.
Because we have such a great prevention program, we don't have the higer cost of treating illnesses that could have been prevented or reduced in scope earlier on.
One thing I have to mention is that some of your recent right-wing blogs have said that the U.S. is in danger of getting health coverage like Canada. I have not been to Canada, but some of the things I have heard mentioned before were that people waited a long time to get into see a doctor, could not see the doctor of their choice, and so forth.
well, do people who have no health coverage get to chose a doctor, or even get an appointment? Who covers the cost of uninsured people right now? Anybody? Or do they just die inthe streets or at home because they couldn't afford medical care? What kind of cruel, inhuman person would tell another human being, sorry, you have to die because we don't want to cover your health benefits?
It is, after all, a rather inhuman act to tell someone that they must die because you are afraid of creating a socialist program, one which you already offer to others, just because hate socialism. If you were the one being denied, how would you feel?
You also have this misconcenption that Spain and Europe do not have private health insurance companies. We do. They are strictly controlled and must cover everyone who applies for benefits. These companies thrive.
Capitalism is not OUR enemy; ignorance is. we welcome the good things about Capitalism and turn away the greed aspect that seems to be ruining your economy, and by proxy, ours as well, because we still maintain close economic ties to the U.S. over here.
Here is a survey of health coverage and obtainability that might interest you: Notice Spain is # 7 and the U.S. is # 37.
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
Here is life expectancy. Notice Spain is # 5 and the U.S. is # 24.
Total
Rank Member State Population Males Females
1 Japan 74.5 71.9 77.2
2 Australia 73.2 70.8 75.5
3 France 73.1 69.3 76.9
4 Sweden 73.0 71.2 74.9
5 Spain 72.8 69.8 75.7
6 Italy 72.7 70.0 75.4
7 Greece 72.5 70.5 74.6
8 Switzerland 72.5 69.5 75.5
9 Monaco 72.4 68.5 76.3
10 Andorra 72.3 69.3 75.2
11 San Marino 72.3 69.5 75.0
12 Canada 72.0 70.0 74.0
13 Netherlands 72.0 69.6 74.4
14 United Kingdom 71.7 69.7 73.7
15 Norway 71.7 68.8 74.6
16 Belgium 71.6 68.7 74.6
17 Austria 71.6 68.8 74.4
18 Luxembourg 71.1 68.0 74.2
19 Iceland 70.8 69.2 72.3
20 Finland 70.5 67.2 73.7
21 Malta 70.5 68.4 72.5
22 Germany 70.4 67.4 73.5
23 Israel 70.4 69.2 71.6
24 United States 70.0 67.5 72.6
25 Cyprus 69.8 68.7 70.9
Go to:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expen
and find out how much the U.S. spends per capita for health coverage.
When it comes down to it, you really have been hoodwinked into believing you have a great system when in fact you are just average. But far be it from me to try to educate you with the facts, because you already seem to have your mind made up.
For more info go to: http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
which shows the World Health Organization statistics for some REAL facts as they pertain to the way things are and stoprelying on pundits and people and co-called news channels with agendas for your information.
Hope this helps set things straight. Thanks for your comment and reply.
My daughter and son work hard but don't have the kind of jobs that offer health insurance. Are they just supposed to get sick and die? I support health care coverage here in the USA because we do have many nmillions of citizens who can't afford coverage. Jaynap01 made a comment that many people can afford health insurance but just don't have it. Jaynap01, have you gone out there and tried to get decent health coverage? My son and I were looking for coverage for him, a single 25 year old, and the cost per month is more than he earns in a month! And that's just basic coverage! And he's very healthy!
Maybe you should get into the trenches before telling us what we can and can't have. You'd get a rude awakening and a real eyeful of just how poor our insurance coverage can be. Go out there and try to live on $1,500 a month, pay your rent, buy your food and get health insurance. I dare you to try it.
In my job I see a lot of unemployed people. I help them find work. But none of them can afford health coverage, even with the reduction of COBRA to paying only 35% as opposed to the 100% that was in place only half-a-year ago.
My dear and good friend Dan died of a curable heart condition because he couldn't work, lost his insurance (The payments were, with his condition, more than $2,000 per month!) and so he had no meds to keep him from having heart failure cause by build up of liquid arounf his heart. It is a completely curable condition with proper medications, and he couldn't even get that!
Now people tell me horror stories and yesterday on FOX News they had some guy on singing the horrors of the Canadian health system, claiming that someone had to wait too long for a leg condition that later required the amuptation of both legs.
Well, my friend Dan could not even get treatment at a hospital, so where is the difference between Canada and the US, whre in one nation a personmight wait for treatment while in the other a person can't even get treatment.
Canada, to my knowledge, is repairing the loopholes in its health care. Our own country seems to just be ignoring them. The mention of illegal aliens bothers me. Most of all because it is meant only to make people afraid that their precious tax dollars will go to someone who is here without papers.
I say I don't care who is ill, there is a responsibility placed upon civilized society to care for people. we send billions overseas to give health care to people in other countries, but we can't attend to people right here?
We have spent close to 3 trillion dollars on the war in Iraq, to what end we still don't know, and we can't afford to keep ourselves, and I mean all of us, healthy?
Something seems amiss in all this.
I am not a right wing nut, and I do know the difference between Socialism and Communism. As your post so correctly points out, Socialism tends to take care of everyone according to their needs with the price being born by the masses...I object to that, do not feel I should have to sacrifice what I do have so that someone else can have a part of it. No one gave us (wife and I) health insurance, and in fact I was without health insurance into my 40's as I needed the money it would cost to have it to invest in my business...that was my personal choice, I was willing to roll the dice (as some 8 million young adults in American under 30 are doing).
I can look to Canada and other nations, look at their socialized Health Care System and know it is not what I have now, and know it it NOT what I want tomorrow under Obama's grand social plan, the plan he is trying to FORCE UPON US as if he is some grand dictator that has the right to force his will on us, and on our Congress.
You left America, apparently dissatified with our form or government...here you have free choice, and you exercised it. Now as an outsider, you need to sit on the side lines and keep your mouth shut, as your opinion as a noncitizen is of no value here, holds no sway.
BudHasherdashery, thanks for the comment. I did leave the USA after serving in Viet Nam and shedding my blood for the US and then being treated like a 2nd hand citizen. My reasons are my own.
As for shutting up and not sharing my opinions, sorry, but I have no need to shut up. I never said you were a right wing nut. there certainly are many right and left wing nuts in the world.
Hub pages are meant to express ideas, enlighten the ignorant and offer information. I really don't care what system of health care, if any, that the U.S. gets because according to independent sources our health care system in Spain is way better than anything you have.
I am answering many people who write hubs and comments who are giving out misinformation about Canada and not looking at their own backyard. For every horror story out of poor old Canada there are maybe 2 similar stories in America.
It's up to you to decide what you will do for yourselves, and that's fine, but don't go around with that arrogant attitude of "USA! USA!" when in fact your nation is in many ways worse off than most of the other industrialized nations of the world.
You are living in a bubble, my friend, and there's simply no getting around that. Your health care system sucks and the health of your nation is way behind the curve.
Living in a bubble...could be.
America would be fine if we stopped being Politically Correct and stopped kowtowing to nations like Mexico when it comes to Illegal Aliens. Lets look at a few facts here.
1. Depending on who you believe, we have between 33-45 Million uninsured people in America right now while this debate is raging.
2. Of that number, which I happen to believe is 33 Million, somewhere between 33 and 80 percent of the uninsured are Illegal Aliens...this does not include the 4.5 million anchor babies that Obama covered with the signing of his S_Chip bill earlier this year.
3. Another 8.5 mfillion of our uninsured are young adults under 30 who have VOLUNTEERILY opted out because they want to spend their money on other things, be it a new car, partying on the weekends, or starting a new business...in short, they want to roll the dice.
As example, on CNN today they had someone who is facing foreclosure on her home because of her medical bills. She admitted the CHOSE to get a bottom rung health insurance policy as she thought she was young enough to DODGE THE BULLET...she was wrong, cancer got her, and now she wants to whine. Give us a break. She rolled the dice and lost, and that is her fault. Illegal aliens don't deserve Health Coverage on our tax dollars, and we have various programs in place for most of the rest of America who for various reasons do not have coverage.
I know bad medical coverage stories in both Canada and in the United States. I know I have a wife that had breast cancer, and know in Obama's health care system, she would not have the INSTANT access to the services we now enjoy, and telling me that should be taken away so that illegal aliens and self serving young adults can have a bit of what I have is wrong.
I don't like socialism, if I did I would move to Spain, as I love the country, and the Greek Islands are not bad either. Arrogant American...call me what you will. Show me any other country in the world that has so many people wanting to move there. If anything, in trying to be too politically correct, we have been too generous with the rest of the world...have you ever bothered to look at how many hundreds of billions of our tax dollars support various programs in other nations, including Spain? Trust me, if America closes its cash drawer to the world, stops providing aid to the rest of the world, and closes are borders to those who have no right to be here, the rest of the world will soon be in one hell of a mess.
We already live in a semi-socialized nation here in the U.S. many of the programs seniors and others have come to depend on are socilaized, such as medicare and social security. We also do not get to keep all that we earn. Whether or not you have children you pay taxes for the local school, thus sharing the burden of education costs. there are many examples I don't have time to write about here. But if you think about it, just fail to pay your property taxes for a year or two and you'll see just how free you are to live your life unbothered.
OK, I'm going to try this one more time. Spain looks absolutely nothing like East Berlin in the 1950's, drab, grey and the like. It is a vibrant, beautiful country and it's economic system is a modern version of Socialism, which is a mixture of the best of the real version of what socialism as meant to be, not the crap that got perverted by Stalinist Russia or Communist CHina, but the real stuff that never had a chance to bloom, and mild capitalism, with lots of restraints to keep the greedy from bilking the people. YES, private enterprise lives here, thrives here and has many employees. YES, the government has a program to make sure that no person, visitor or citizen, goes without basic life services such as health care and help surviving the loss of a job, and other things as well.
We treasure our elderly, providing them with excusions, free, throughout the country, 2 spa visits (2 weeks each) for free, help with financial problems, banking etc. Our banks are not the property of the government and neither are the hospitals, insurance companies and the like.
For all those people who have their head wrapped around the vision of what was once Eastern Block Europe under the control of the USSR, get used to it, MODERN Socialism as an economic system, not as a dictatorship, lives and thrives in Europe, and it does very well because we also have checks and balances on it so it will NEVER become a burden to our citizens. As democracies,. we have the choice to change our governments any time we want to. Spain had a non-socilaist government just a few years ago, but people got tired of it and voted it out.
If you visit Madrid you will see thousands upon thousands of small, family-owned businesses doing rather well, even in these uncertain economic times, and large comapnies also doing well, within the system we have. We are NOT Communists, old-fashioned "Socialists" like East Germany once was, and we take pride in our achievements.
My point in this hub is to inform people that times have moved on and socialism, as it now exists in Europe, is not your enemy. Indeed if you live in canada or the U.S. you are more like us than you may be willing to admit!
I pay no more in taxes than do people in, for example, the U.S., and I really, really do get to keep just as much of my earnings as you do across the pond. So please, come visit Spain, learn more about it and its government, before you say things like
"In America a man can keep what he earns, Spain you must share it. Just like the spoiled immature kids playing in a sand box."
Many of our programs are paid for by taxes, just like in other countries, and we also have a huge income from tourism, which grows larger even in tough economic times.
We have modern, inexpensive rail travel almost anywhere in the country & in Europe, some extremely modern roadways, and many new, attractive buildings, for business and for dwelling.
Spain is modern and Spain is ancient, and it is a great place to live. Be happy where ever you live, but remember that the economic system in Spain is not your enemy! Neither are the government nor the people!
One last note: Someone told me just to shut up because I live in Spain and am now a Spanish citizen. Well, my grandparents were living in Germany when a guy named Hitler came along. They left because of his plan for Germany, which they told me they saw right through. They had relatives in the U.S. and went there because it was the land of the free, home of the brave. They were proud to become U.S. citizens, even though they were treated like the enemy in WWII. My father joined the U.S. Army at 16 and fought against Germany until the war was won. I joined the U.S. Air Force and fought in Viet Nam. I am NOT anti-American. I quite literally shed my blood for my birth nation. I am sad because America seems to have lost its way and has become very isolated in the world. I remember Eisenhower and Kennedy, i remember seeing Americans going to the moon, and I was proud of these things.
But America had become a bully by the time of Nixon, and worse under Bush and Cheney. Carter was asleep at the switch and Ford was too good for his more aggresive GOP party mates. Johnson meant well, did great things with trying to get rid of racism, but ended up fighting a war the U.S. should never have got involved in. Reagan, likeable man though he was, was too easily distracted to remember that the U.S. had a crumbling infrastructure, poor schools and that religion has no place running a government in the U.S.
I still have family living in the U.S., a brother, two sisters, nieces and nephews, a few living aunts and uncles, etc, all of whom I live dearly, and all of whom I worry about. Please do not believe for a moment that I wish for the downfall of America. I really want the nation to succeed and live up to it's ideals instead of giving in to the expediencies & fears of the moment.
It is, however, really up to you living there to see beyond your politics and do what is best, REALLY best for America, not just for your politics and agendas.
I would really suggest you search for Paraglider's hubs because he wrote an extremely great hub recently about this very subject. I hope you will do that.
Socialism. We are the greatest country in the world and this dumbass is hellbent on making us into a Canada or France. The things he does make him an evil man. and voting for an evil man is doing evil. I cannot figure out how he tricked so many Americans into voting for him. America is headed straight for the shitter, like the rest of the world, unless someone with some sense takes control and brings us back to our faith foundation.
Capitalism is NOT our enemy?? WRONG.
Wal-Mart has perfected capitalism. It has also perfected the best way to demolish small towns. I live in a small town where it has done just that. I'm 20 years old and I can't believe you liberal pussies are that stupid to want capitalism and socialism. I swear I'd like to get my hands on you all one at a time. Ask Marcus Luttrell what he thinks of liberal America. Google him.
Rush Limbaugh 2012!
Is this socialism or healthcare debate? :) Chef Jeff, i feel your pain. I dont want to get into "whos life is was worse". I will tell you i know what hunger truely means. Lets clear somethings up. Im sure EVERYBODY wants EVERYBODY to have healthcare. What we disagree on is the path to that goal. I dont speak for every conservative ( for the record dirdy needs to grow up. Theres boys who wear confederate flags and cowboy hats that call themselves conservate, then there is the mature, rational, and compassionate conservative...be the latter) but i dont want the government taking my hard earned money to pay for a persons lung transplant because he smoked all his life. This quote sums it up about the Presidents plan:
"Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller." -Townhall meeting.
And Dirdy, im am a conservative but bashing Walmart seems to be the "cool" thing to do but think about it.
If the Mom & Pop stores employs six ppl and charges $2.50 for a gallon of milk compared to the Wal-Mart who employes 30-40ppl and charges $2.00 for a gallon of milk, which would benefit the small town overall? ( If walmart didnt offer better deals than the Mom&Pop they wouldnt be in business).......jus sayn
You have missed an important fact. Spain population is going to be 46 million in 2020! The United States population is 278,058,881 in 2001!
http://www.photius.com/countries/spain/society/spa
Another note: We are taxed INSANELY to high and if this new healthcare passes will have a %46 corporate income tax! If this passes, IVAN i just might consider moving to SPAIN.
Well, jaynap01. how America solves its crisis is purely up to America to solve. I only suggest that America already has some so-called Socialist programs inexistence, and that hasn't made America into A Socialist nation. America is more capitalist than socialist, but like Spain it is also a Democracy and therefore the people decide what system they want. If, as recently happened, ythe majority vote for the Democracts then nobody should be surprised that the Democrat's agenda will be put forward. If, as in 2000 and 2004 the majority voted for Republicans, then nobody should be shocked that a Republican agenda is the one going forward.
I am nolonger a citizen there, so I don't get to vote. But I was a bit surprised to hear that some of the horror stories used to oppose the Obama health plan were made up. It seems a lady from canada exaggerated her claim about having cancer and not being able to recieve treatment in Canada. the Mayo Clinic where she went to in the U.S. said she had a pituitary cyst, not a cancerous tumor as she cliams, and it was not life-threatening, just annoying.
I can't tell youthe specifics of Obama's health plan, but it would seem to me that neither side should be allowed to invent stuff that isn't true. Fromwhat I see there are carefully chosen buzz words each side uses to make the issue sound either good or bad.
We have that here as well, because many of our newspapers have political leanings. I tend to read quite a few of them and sort through the agendas to try to get to the actual facts.
I'm also not going to claim that Spain is a paradise in every aspect. We have and traditionally have had high unemployment here. We do, however, count everyone, even if their claim is older. In the U.S. as I remember once a person gets off unemployment they are no longer counted, and also the people who do not get accepted for claims aren't counted. Here there is also a lot of under-the-table employment, so people who are not working openly may be working for cash.
thanks for the comment!
Hey, Ivan, what do you think about this article?
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/07/what_t
You can PM a response if you want, since were getting more into healthcare.
Excellent Hub and a good discussion. Socialism is a scare word used in the United States by right wingers who oppose even rudimentary social insurance programs and effective regulation of Wall Street Banksters, parasitical for-profit health care insurers, greedy pharmaceutical and international oil companies, coal fired electric power plants and the like.
Jaynap01, I read that and from what I have observed so far the current proposal will be modified significantly, so I am sure that with enough Congressional oversight some of the odds, ends and strange additions will be taken out. Maybe not, but I would think that with Blue Dog Democrats and Republicans keeping an eye on this some of the stranger aspects will be taken out.
Yet with the strange ability to add other bills onto a major bill, it seems that some thiongs totally unrelated to the original intent of the bill get voted in. You call it pork, and some of it, on the face of things anyway, seems rather odd to be voted into existance. I remember that back when I lived in the U.S. there were some odd pork amendments that got through.
Currently, though, isn't it the law that anyone who shows up at an ER must receive treatment of some sort, regardless of insurance or lack thereof? I know we have that here. When my U.S. cousin came to visit he had a minor accident requiring stitches and a follow up visit and was treated free of charge.
As for illegal, or as some call them, undocumented, people, we have an issue with this in Spain, as does all of Europe. Some people are howling angry over it and others just accept it. Personally I would rather that people coming to live here register as guest workers have documentation because if they are guest workers they have to have a place to live, a job, etc.
But in Madrid, and other big cities, we get a lot of people coming over from North Africa and they have no papers. We take care of their medical needs, mostly because many of them come because they are ill, but they are sent home, humanely of course, but unless they have proper documentation they aren't allowed to remain here. A lot of time because they can't get work legally they panhandle and that causes problems with residents and tourists alike. We depend heavily on tourism, so we don't want anything to spoil that.
Of course as you mentioned, Spain is smaller and I think we can more easily handle this problem of a few hundred thousand than if we had up to 12 million undocumented.
Ralph, Socialism as it exists in Europe these days is pretty mild compared to what people in the U.S. believe it to be. In fact we have free enterprise as well as some economic social programs. We are a mix of what we believe to be the best of all systems, and so far it has worked quite well, without huge defeceits. In fact, if the newspaper stpory I read recently in El Pais is true, we have closed our trade defeceits raher significantly over the past decade. we were hit hard a few decades ago by the loss of heavy manufacturing, mostly to Asia, and shipbuilding took a death blow.
But tourism has picked up and helps give Spain a rather steady income.
thanks for the comment!
Capitalism isnt the what brought America to the state were in today, we have. To quote Ray "I would give them a big FAT F. Americans think that the government and financial institutions are the only ones to blame for the demise of the nation, but fail to look in the mirror. Who told them to live a life beyond their means? Who told them to buy houses they couldn't afford or spend on items they didnt really need. No one was lifting a finger when the economy was growing due to the lack of discipline every american displayed in these last ten years. Give me a break." And instead of growing up and maturing we are so spoiled we want the government to take care of us. WE are the problem not Capitalism. Conservatives fear socialism becuase dictatorships comes next.
jaynap01, "traditional" Socialism was hijacked by dictators, but in the USSR there really wasn't a socialist system as envisioned by Marx. But Europe today does not embrace the Marxist ideas with fidelity either. We are actually socially socialist, while economically more capitalist. The difference between us and you is that we try, and mostly succeed, in keeping the greed factor out of huge businesses.
Greed, individual as well as corporate, has lead to much of the problem we face today. Also, lack of regulation, and by that I mean intelligent, non-disruptive regulation, is also missing or left unenforced.
Again, thanks for commenting!
Dirdy, I just finally understood what your first post was all about. I failed to answer since I thought you were talking aobut me and I didn't want to get into a personal argument. However, if you are talking about Obama, well, he got elected. Enough people voted in the right number of states to get the electoral college votes, and that's how he got in there.
Satan did not vote for him and to say so is, forgive me, an idea that is somewhat silly. Anerica has had many kinds of presidents and just because your side (whichever that was) didn't win doesn't mean the other guy is "EVIL".
I doubt Obama could make America like France or Canada, even if he wanted to, but bashing the Canadians and French is not a wise thing to do. Canada is a great nation with many wonderful people. If America took your anger toward Canada toheart, you'd lose your largest trading partner, and then where would your economy be? As you said, down the crapper.
France is actually a pretty cool place. I've visited there about a dozen times and have always been welcomed warmly. I like France a lot, as well as the other European nations.
Americans need to get over this anger about other countries, though, it really makes your nation look infantile and uneducated.
Great post. I was beginning to think they're weren't any sensible people here. You and many of your commentators have relieved my mind!
Thanks, DJ! My little hub stirred up a bit of protest at first but when people started to realize I was not talking Berlin, 1948, they toned it all down. I am NOT advocating a return to that dismal time! Just some common sense to let Americans know they already have some socialist programs they all love and need, like Medicare and Unemployment Insurance and Social Security & others.
And if one thinks socialism is their enemy, then I would suggest they do away with the horrible, nasty programs at once! Ha-ha!!!
Do you think any politicians that advocates doing away with them would survive? I mean, leterally, survive? would he or she be torn to pieces?
"The only problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money." - Margeret Thatcher
But it works pretty good until you do!
America is the fatest nation in the world: %64 of us are obese.The latest estimate from CDC on the annual cost of obesity: $147 billion. We dont need to nationalize %17 our economy , we just need to get to the gym. The healthcare problem is solved. :)
I've really enjoyed reading your hub and comments Ivan. As a Spaniard living in the UK who has travelled extensively over Europe I'd rather live here than the US anyday. I think the blend of socialism, capitalism and democracy works well and I'd rather be living in a society that cares about those who are in need than one that just leaves people to die. I've always believed that Europe in general has a more mature and civiilsed approach to politics and society than the US. What's sad is how many people are being sold the American dream in european countries and how it's ruining them.
Susana S, where are you from in Spain? Mi esposa es Madrilena. I was attracted to Spain after a Eurotrip. I loved the culture, the variations of cultures and the people here. All the rest was just icing on the cake.
How are things in the UK? we have a good friend, Ana, also Spanish, who lives in London, and we've been there about a dozen times. I love to do pub trips and visit local pubs all over England, plus I love the history. (I am a history fanatic!)
As for the U.S., I do wish them well, especially since I still have close family over there, but I am concerned that America is falling into an abyss of their own making. They have 2 vocal minorities that protests everything, one of the Left and the other on the Right, and they lost their spirit of compromise. Everything seems to be either black or white, with no shades of colour (English spelling, cool, eh?).
Write some more great hubs! Maybe your views on health coverage in the U.K. Thanks for commenting.
Dolores Monet says:
8 months ago
Most people I know who are yammering about socialism here in the US are right wing taodies and the nitwits who listen to AM radio talk shows. Certain entities are throwing the word socialism around like a few years ago when the word liberal had them spinning like a bunch of Tasmainian devils.
The corporations that run America are terrified that time has come for them to get their cupupance and they are making a lot of noise to convince normal people that to pay workers fair wages is socialism.