The Dog Whisperer vs. Victoria Stilwell
80Who would you pick to help you with Cujo?
See results without votingImagine you are locked-up in a house with a large Cujo like dog as a companion, and you can't leave the house until you have Cujo in a mostly non-psychopathic state.
Who would you rather have with you in the house;
Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer, or Victoria Stilwell from It's Me or the Dog?
Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer
Truthfully, in that imagined Cujo scenario, I would pick The Dog Whisperer. I wouldn't even have to think about it.
Why The Dog Whisperer?
- In the Cujo scenario, I am left with very little choice but to confront the dog, whip him into shape, so that I can get the hell out of that house.
- I am not really interested in remaining with Cujo after I escape, so I want a fast, short-term solution.
- I do not really know Cujo, and am probably scared shitless by him, so I can't say that I am particularly concerned about his welfare, while I am trying to escape with my skin intact.
- The Dog Whisperer is good at confronting dogs, and his methods are probably the most effective in getting them subdued in the shortest amount of time.
- If I get attacked by Cujo, I think The Dog Whisperer has the best skills to stop him before I sustain any serious damage.
The Dog Whisperer
|
Dog Whisperer With Cesar Millan - The Complete First Season
Price: $21.10
List Price: $29.98 |
|
Dog Whisperer by Cesar Millan Blue Microtec Gel Fill Orthopedic Napper Color:Blue
Price: $49.99
|
|
Dog Whisperer: The Very Best of
Price: $2.99
|
Forget Cujo; What About My Own Dog?
However, what happens when our own dog misbehaves? Who do we want to be there to help us with our dog ?
For training my own dogs, I would pick Victoria Stilwell, from It's Me or the Dog.
Why Victoria Stilwell?
The Dog Whisperer vs. Victoria Stilwell 1
Trust and bonding.
With my own dog, there is no need to hurry. I do not need to whip him into shape as fast as possible. Rather, I want to take my time and be very careful with his dog obedience training, so that I earn his trust, and improve our bond.
The aversive training used by The Dog Whisperer, is more likely to bring fast results. However, if it is not accurately executed, it can erode your dog's trust in you, and weaken your relationship.
The reward training used by Victoria Stilwell may take more work, more patience, and more time. However, it is safer, helps create trust, and improves the overall relationship between you and your dog. Reward training is just better dog kung fu.
Victoria Stilwell
|
It's Me or the Dog: How to Have the Perfect Pet
Price: $10.40
List Price: $17.99 |
|
Fat Dog Slim: It's Me or the Dog
Price:
|
|
Before and After Getting Your Puppy: The Positive Approach to Raising a Happy, Healthy, and Well-Behaved Dog
Price: $7.50
List Price: $19.95 |
Which do you think is better?
See results without votingThe Dog Whisperer vs. Victoria Stilwell 2
Confrontation vs. management.
The Dog Whisperer's dog training techniques are, in large part, based on confrontation. When faced with a behavioral issue, you confront your dog, and stop the bad dog behavior primarily through physical techniques. To deal with fear issues, you force your dog to confront his fears by flooding him with the fear-stimulus, until he learns to tolerate it.
Confrontation, is often more satisfying, because it is very visceral, has quicker short-term results, and involves high adrenalin, physical action.
Victoria Stilwell's dog training techniques are mostly based on management and diplomacy. When faced with a dog behavioral issue, you distract your dog, and stop the problem behavior by controlling your dog's attention, and his resources.
To deal with fear issues, you properly manage your dog, and only expose him to small amounts of the fear-stimulus at a time. You desensitize your dog by pairing the fear-stimulus with good rewards (e.g. dog treats, dog toys, dog play). In this way, your dog starts to re-associate the fearful situation, with something good, and learns to tolerate it.
Management and diplomacy is often less satisfying. It is not very visceral, takes more time for results, and involves a lot of waiting, repetition, and patience.
However, confrontation is sometimes dangerous because it may cause a dog to break-down from extreme stress, or respond in kind with teeth and claws.
Management and diplomacy tend to bring better long-term results. You teach your dog alternate ways to control his impulses, and give him the freedom, time, and opportunity to learn to live well in our confusing, human world.
The Dog Whisperer vs. Victoria Stilwell 3
Type of Leadership.
Being in control of your dog is very important.
Our human world can be confusing and dangerous to our dogs, and our laws are created to protect humans, not dogs. Therefore, we must assume leadership, protect our dogs, and make sure that they do not inadvertently hurt children, bite hands, eat poisonous food, or run into traffic.
Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer's philosophy supports more of a totalitarian rule. The dog must always follow what you say, no ifs, ands, or buts. The dog must walk slightly behind you, and is expected to be obedient at all times. Failure to abide by your commands will result in a swift, physical correction.
Victoria Stilwell's form of leadership is more democratic in nature, and takes a dog's specific issues and needs into account. Dogs that are afraid of neighborhood walks, can be encouraged with food, toys, and play.
Dogs that pull, can be better managed and taught with a head-halti. Dogs that are aggressive, can be distracted and desensitized by controlling distance and rewards. Safety is still maintained by using proper equipment and management strategies, so that the dog is never exposed to extreme situations that he cannot handle. In other words -
Set your dog up for success, and try to minimize failure.
Which leadership philosophy is better for your dog?
See results without votingWho would you pick to help you with your own dog?
See results without votingThe Dog Whisperer vs. Victoria Stilwell 4
Which is safer?
Many supporters of a totalitarian rule say that the iron fist is necessary to ensure the safety of the dog. A common example used is having your dog stop on command while he is running into traffic.
Supporters of a more democratic rule ask, "What is the dog doing running into traffic in the first place?".
It is true that mistakes sometimes occur, but with proper management, we can reduce the frequency and potential danger of those mistakes.
In fact, the management strategies used by Victoria Stilwell are probably a lot safer than the confrontation strategies used by Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer because the stress from confrontation can cause a dog to act in an erratic, unexpected fashion.
While The Dog Whisperer himself may be able to stop these erratic actions, novice trainers, like the most of us, may just get bitten.
Finally, consider what type of leader you would prefer. A totalitarian country may be cleaner and safer, but the payment is less freedom and less choice.
ShibaShake Blog
- Good Dog Name, Bad Dog Name
Naming a dog is always a very complicated affair. Everybody in the family wants to name the dog after their favorite hero, villain, or whatever else. According to the experts dog names should... - 6 days ago
- Resource Guarding – “Mine!”, Says the Shiba Inu
Many Shiba Inu owners will tell you that “mine” is the first and most favorite Shiba word. Shibas think that everything, including food, toys, the house, the neighborhood, and even their... - 2 weeks ago
- Happy Doggy Birthday
Last weekend was Shania and Sephy’s combined Birthday extravaganza! Shania is now 2 years old. Sephy is 3 and starting to develop white whiskers! Here is what happened … 1. Opening of... - 3 weeks ago
PrintShare it! — Rate it: up down flag this hub
Comments
Thanks Nancy. Yeah, poor Shania always seems to attract all kinds of trouble. Hopefully, her immune system will continue to mature, and she will continue to mature, and be less susceptible to doggie illnesses.
"expose him to small amounts of the fear-stimulus" - Good lord who would ever think of such cruelty to animals ???!!!
I have to agree with Cesar's method being "fast, short-term solution" meaning it's really not a solution. I don't understand how that's not understood.
Great hub.
An excellent comaprison. I prefer the 'management and diplomacy' approach because that has worked so far for the 3 dogs that have been in my life. Maybe for certain dog temperaments or breeds the more confrontational approch would be better.
I reasoned, in my ignorance (not a dog trainer), that if I created a strong emotional bond with my dog she would always want to be with me and please me an so do as I say. As i said, this has been successful so far - only cats supercede that emotional bond !
lol quicksand. I *know* your method of choice.
[Whitney] Even though Cesar's methods may have issues in the long-term, they are a lot more direct, fast, and satisfying; so I think it appeals to more people. I actually started with Cesar's methods. He was recommended by my previous vet tech and my previous breeder. Things started going downhill after a few months. Btw. how is Mia? Hope she is doing well.
[Iphigenia] lol - I have a Shiba Inu who is actually a dog that is more like a cat. He is very clean like a cat, very aloof, and he also supercedes that emotional bond. However, the confrontational approach did not work on him at all. He would fight back every time - just like a cat :) I try to keep an open mind, but sometimes I wonder if there really are breeds or temperaments that do better with the confrontational approach. Confrontation may just be for the people in the equation.
It is true that the methods are quick, but I'd rather a long-term effect even if it takes longer, and especially if it's more pleasant and enjoyable for the dog.
Thanks for asking. She's actually doing pretty good. She had a tough time with her last treatment but with some antibiotics, she was good in a few days. She goes for her last chemo treatment this Friday.
The dog you call "my little Cujo" really looks smart. Close to where I live right now, there is a dog which resembles Cujo. I've taken a picture of him and will post it soon.
Woof!
He is pretty smart, but in a roguish, Jack Sparrow, kind of way. Shania is smart in a more traditional way, as she is amazing with figuring out interactive toys. My little Cujo will just wait until Shania gets all the food out, and then he will go pick up what he can. Kindda reminds me of Wimpy :)
Looking forward to the picture and some new hubs! Woof, Woof, Woof!
Don't be too disappointed when you see this guy. He is a stray dog and so is undernourished. He is the same brand as "Cujo" and thus the resemblance. He is a bit scared of me. Whenever I pass him, I say "dog!" and just gets up from his curled up position and hurries away. :)
Hmmm, wouldn't it be much better to have a little Cujo on your side? Instead of saying "dog!", carry some dog biscuits with you, and drop him a little piece whenever you pass by.
You never know, one day, little Cujo may save you from stalkers, muggers, and annoying neighborhood kids :)
I would not risk carrying dog biscuits ... would be too tempting ... although I don't know how they taste ... I don't wanna end up chasing cars. :)
LOL - thanks for that :) I feel like I should pay you for that one. I'll go click on some of your Adsense ads.
First I would say that the whole 'pack leader' analogy is incorrect. Dogs are not wolves. Dogs don't form packs with leaders. People form packs and have leaders. Is it that difficult for us to imagine relationships that are not based on vertical hierarchies?
The problem for many so called 'Cujos' is that they are afraid and forcing them to deal with what fears them can (and often does) makes their issues worse, not better. Shelters are full of dogs whose owners thought dogs should do what they wanted them to, regardless of how the dog felt about it.
If you regularly find yourself stuck in a house with Cujos I recommend that you get out of the dog business in whatever form you're in, you shouldn't have put yourself in that position to begin with. There are some people I'd rather be with if I found myself in a dark alley in a bad part of town. I might not support their methods of protecting themselves otherwise. How about I just stay out of dark alleys so I don't need a black belt with a gun?
Millan uses old school training techniques. Nothing new or creative there. The fact that some people refer to him as a 'behaviorist' is an insult to the ethologists and certified behaviorists who have spent years studying animal behavior, and living & working with dogs.
Can his techniques work, sure. Do scared dogs need someone bullying or intimidating them into 'calm submissive'- definitely not. It's easy to change how a dog behaves, pet owners without any experience have been doing it for millenia, changing how a damaged dog feels and experiences the world takes more time and skill then I have ever seen Millan use.
He loves dogs no doubt of that and has some good dog handling skills, lots of trainers do, but he had not done fearful dogs of the world any favors. I'd enjoy going for a walk with him one day and 30 dogs and telling him myself.
Debbie, thank you very much for your well thought out comment.
I think that there is a divide between the Cesar Millan people, and the non-Cesar Millan people; which is unfortunately because both sides really love their dogs very much and want to do what is best for their canine companion.
Cesar Millan, Victoria Stilwell, and other dog traiing shows on t.v. are good in general because they show people that dogs need training and also a lot of exercise.
Personally, I only use reward methods because I have found them to be a lot more effective with my dogs and for my temperament. Cesar Millan, however, does say some good things; for example with respect to calm and assertive energy, exercise, as well as rules and boundaries. I think that we can learn from both sides; and gathering more information will help us make better decisions.
Re pack leadership theory: For me, the important lesson here is that dogs live in our human world; so it is up to us to teach them our very human rules. It is the responsibility of dog owners to ensure that their dogs do not inadvertently hurt themselves and others. I think dogs need rules, routine, and structure. Cesar conveys this information using the pack leadership theory/idea/concept, which I think makes it more accessible to more people. I agree with you that he does push the concept to the extreme sometimes and uses it to support the use of aversive techniques; which I personally do not agree with. Whether the theory/concept is truth or not, I think, is somewhat of a moot point. What is clear however, is that it is a good rhetorical device.
Re Cujo: I think the Cujo example is useful to create a contrast between more extreme circumstances that rarely happen, and everyday circumstances that we go through with our dogs. As you very rightly pointed out, the best way to deal with Cujo is to not go where Cujo lives, and not to create Cujos ourselves either through lack of training, or lack of understanding.
Re Cesar Millan: Unlike many other dog trainers, I think that Cesar Millan is unique in that he is able to convey dog training information in a way that is entertaining and appealing to many people. The good of this is that he alerts people to the need for dog training, and dog exercise. He also gets people a lot more interested in the whole dog training/dog behavior area, which encourages more information collection and circulation. As you pointed out, the downside of this is that he uses mostly aversive techniques, which in turn encourages people to use those techniques.
Most dog owners, I believe, truly want to do what is best for their dogs. It makes sense to find some common ground, and exchange information in a positive manner, so that we may all benefit. Whatever we may all think about Cesar Millan, it is undeniable that he is a great communicator, so that is one of the things I try to learn from him whenever I watch The Dog Whisperer.
I think that we can learn much from Cesar Millan, Victoria Stilwell, and each other by keeping an open mind and staying positive :)
Hey who is that guy in those pictures?? Yeah.......
Maybe its me ;)
Btw. Whitney is a really nice gal. She has a 3 legged dog, same as me, so we have been chatting a bit about that. Sometimes it is easy to misunderstand and mis-communicate with people in an online chat because you don't get to see their faces, hear their voice, etc. Also, sometimes people just have bad days or bad weeks.
I think that when someone has strong opinions about their dogs, it means they care very much about them. Both you and Whitney obviously care very much for your dogs, so you already have much in common :)
I did look through the comments on your hub and it seems like for the most part, you both were very civil and polite to each other - just some differences in opinion. As you said, you and I had much more heated conversations and we still turned out to be pals :)
Also I don't think Whitney is ignoring you. She just has a lot on her plate right now.
Stay calm and assertive :)
I agree with you, in theCujo situation i would pick Caesar, otherwise i would go with Victoria.
I agree 100%--Cujo, give me Cesar, my dog--a little of both, but Victoria uses way more positive reinforcement. I've watched a lot of both and tried techniques from both, and had good results with both. It's just a more pleasant experience for the trainer when you can be happy and playful while teaching. Beautiful dogs, by the way.
"It's just a more pleasant experience for the trainer when you can be happy and playful while teaching."
You said this really well. I must include it!
I started out with Cesar's techniques and switched after a few months because it did not work out well with my Shiba Inu or with me. I think that when training is more fun, the dog learns faster and the human learns faster as well.
The human usually is the one that needs more help anyways :)
I understand what you're talking about when you say that Cesar's style is good for the short term, but I wouldn't say that they are only good in the short term. Afterall, doesn't Cesar apply these same techniques to his own dogs and achieve good long term success?
It's misleading to characterize Cesar as an aversive only trainer, I think he balances aversion with reward. People who oppose his techniques only see him doing leash corrections but don't recognize the other more gentle methods he uses. To me Cesar's methods are not about dictatorship or confrontation as much as they are about finding the most direct way to communicate with your dog.
Perhaps the main problem with aversive techniques is that it can be difficult to pull off correctly. Then again, maybe some people are naturally better using aversive techniques, I think it really depends on what you believe in. If you believe in it working, then it will work. If you question what you do, then so does the dog. If you get angry using aversive techniques, then the dog loses trust in you. If you can do it with the calm assertive energy of Cesar, I see no reason why it cannot bring long term results.
I respect the idea of positive only reinforcement, but for some scenarios it just doesn't make sense. If a dog loves tearing up the couch, how do you fix that with positive only reinforcement? I think in certain situtions, corrective actions are needed. They don't need to be leash jerks or physical touch, but just some sort of negative stimuli. Speaking of which, I've seen Victoria Stillwell use the click thingy and an electronic shock collar, both of which are negative stimuli, so she's not exactly a positive only trainer.
Cesar and Victoria aren't all that different to me, they use different techniques, but the end goal is the same. It's like eating noodles with chopsticks or a fork, neither is right or wrong, the end goal is all the same.
Hello Nicco, Thanks for your well thought out comment. This will make for a very interesting discussion.
1. "It's misleading to characterize Cesar as an aversive only trainer, I think he balances aversion with reward"
Yes Cesar does use both:
http://hubpages.com/_srec/hub/Cesar-Milan-Dog-Trai
However, if you compare him to Victoria Stilwell and many other trainers, he uses more aversive techniques. Victoria does not do leash jerks, finger pokes, or alpha rolls, which are the very physical based aversive techniques.
2. "[Cesar's methods are] the most direct way to communicate with your dog."
The truth is, *both* aversive and reward methods are used to communicate with the dog and help them learn. But aversive techniques do a whole lot more than communicate.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Dog-Psychology--Dog-Behavi
3. "Perhaps the main problem with aversive techniques is that it can be difficult to pull off correctly"
That is also very true. They are difficult to execute properly, with the right timing, and with the right redirection. *And* if you do not execute them well, there are some bad risks involved including causing aggression in dogs.
http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/current/research/030
4. "If you can do it with the calm assertive energy of Cesar, I see no reason why it cannot bring long term results"
The danger with aversive techniques such as the leash jerk and others is that your dog can get habituated to the pain. So after time, your dog may longer respond to a given level of pain, and you must escalate your correction. This will depend on the temperament of the dog. In general, you cannot apply too much force, or the dog may get too stressed and break down; but you also cannot apply too little force or your dog will get habituated to the correction and start ignoring this. Getting the right amount of force/pain is difficult to do.
5. "If a dog loves tearing up the couch, how do you fix that with positive only reinforcement?"
Positive reinforcement is always paired with negative punishment (i.e., taking away a reward/resource) from the dog to stop an undesirable behavior. My Shiba Inu used to tear at curtains and such when I first got him and was using *aversive techniques*. I did alpha rolls on him for curtain tearing and that did not work out well for me. When I switched to reward training, all I did was say "ack,ack", body block him away from the area, and give him something else to do. If he continues, he gets a time-out. Note - the time-out is NOT a "let your dog think over his mistakes" session. It is a "negative punishment" technique because it *takes away* the dog's freedom, to stop/discourage a bad behavior. You are teaching your dog that if he can't behave, then he gets his freedoms revoked. I used this on my Shiba Inu and it worked out very well.
6. "I've seen Victoria Stillwell use the click thingy and an electronic shock collar, both of which are negative stimuli"
Hmmm, I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean 'clicker training'? The clicker is just a sound, and it can be used as a marker to indicate either good or bad behavior. It is like a 'Yes' or a 'No', but better because it produces a unique sound. Most dog trainers use it to mark good behaviors, hence the whole area of 'clicker training'.
I have never seen Victoria Stilwell use an electronic shock collar. In fact, in a recent episode, she was warning people about them. You are right in that in her older episodes of Its Me of the Dog she *does* use some aversive methods, in particular sound aversion methods. She seems to have stopped using those altogether in her USA episodes. Non-pain based aversive techniques such as sound and smell aversion are less risky because they place less stress on the dog.
7. "Cesar and Victoria aren't all that different to me, they use different techniques, but the end goal is the same"
That is true, the end goal is the same for all dog trainers and all dog owners, but *how you get there* , what are the dangers along the way, and what is your probability of success are all very important here. That is why there is so much controversy around The Dog Whisperer.
Looking forward to your reply. :)
Clearly you have put a lot of effort and time into developing your thoughts on dog training/behavior/psychology, very commendable. I'm not a Cesar Millan worshipper, I think critically about what people do and do not follow based on blind faith. I have seen certain episodes of the Dog Whisperer where I questioned things Cesar has done. There was one episode where he practically got into a fight with a malamute/wolf type dog (he got his shirt all torn up) and I really thought there could have been a better way to do it. No way could a 60 year old woman have done what he did.
I understand the argument about the dog becoming accustomed to aversive techniques, but I would think that the goal is so that eventually you don't need to use the aversive techniques. Otherwise it wasn't working to begin with. About the long term results, at the end of each Dog Whisperer episode there's always a segment with a "2 months later the dog and owner are doing great" type of thing. That could simply be happy go lucky TV show stuff, or some of it might be real results. Whatever the case, it's clear you are against aversive techniques, but I question whether there is enough evidence to prove that aversive techniques indeed do not work in the long term. Cesar has a well balanced pack of dogs, his techniques apparently work for him. In my experience, as long as I do not hit the dog out of anger, using "aversive" techniques does not erode any trust issues.
To me it's more of a cultural thing than anything else, Americans are so afraid of the terms abuse, hurting, torture that they are reluctant to use physical touch on their dogs when it comes to behavior modification. It kills me when people refer to Cesar's actions as, "intimidating a dog into submission." It's as if Cesar is some sort of monster, but really it's more of a cultural view than a case of inhumanity.
Come to think of it, you are correct about Stillwell being against the shock collar. I got things mixed up in my head. To be honest, I haven't seen too many episodes of her show, I will have to make an effort to watch it more because I thought she had some pretty genius ideas in one episode I saw.
Hello Nicco,
Thank you for your very measured and well thought out response.
"but I would think that the goal is so that eventually you don't need to use the aversive techniques"
Yes that is indeed the goal. Very difficult to get it right though, I have tried. Most people that I see just keep tugging and tugging at their dog using a choke chain - which is both dangerous and ineffective.
"I question whether there is enough evidence to prove that aversive techniques indeed do not work in the long term"
Aversive techniques *can* work - even in the long term - you just have to implement it exactly right, on the right type of dog, and you really have to know what you are doing. That is difficult - especially for people who do not do it as a living.
"To me it's more of a cultural thing than anything else."
You are absolutely right here as well. I grew up in Asia and the culture there is very different wrt. dogs compared to the United States. I prefer to separate the culture of dog training from the science of dog training - so I do not think it is useful to scold people using such terms (I was scolded too when I first started out and was still learning). However, just based on the science and based on my own experiments on my dogs, I truly believe that it is better to start off with reward dog training. It is effective and there are much fewer risks.
Thanks for the great discussion, Nicco.
I think the best critique of Milan and his outdated Dominance Theory can be found at this link, with the list of links following the blog post: http://community.livejournal.com/dogsintraining/54 :) But you wrote a good/fair hub, too.
Thanks for the great link Henry! Definitely one to bookmark.
Let's not forget that these are television shows which must attract advertising dollars to survive.
In my opinion, Victoria's television show is much less entertaining than "The Dog Whisperer." Forget the Cujo question, and ask yourself, "if I didn't know anything about dogs or have any preconceived notions about canine behavior, which television show would I prefer to watch ?"
Or this: "If I wanted to sit down and have a cup of coffee and a Danish with either Stillwell or Millan, which would I choose just on the basis of whether or not it would be a fun conversation?"
Opinions can differ, but Cesar just seems much more likeable than Victoria, and sometimes the message is the medium
Also, the way the Producers and Directors of the two shows choose to portray Stillwell and Millan interacting with their Client Dog Owners is markedly different. By and large, Victoria's producers seems to pick absolute Ninnies to be her Clients, while Cesar's clients generally seem to be pretty level-headed "just folks" people. When I see Victoria solving the "dog problems" of women who spend hours cooking gourmet meals for the family dog and feed their husband and kids TV trays, I cannot identify those households with anything which seems to Mainstream in the United States. Come on, these are situations better resolved by Marriage Counselors than Dog Trainers.
I have a two-hundred forty pound Mastiff who has an aggression problem, and he's getting slowly better with a combination of both discipline and rewards. There is no way, however, that Stillwell's methods could control him when control is necessary. I haven't watched every episode of "It's Me or the Dog," but I've never seen her deal with the behavior of a Red Zone aggressive dog in the 15-18 episodes I've watched.
If there's anyoneout there who wants to undertake the job of eliminating my Mastiff's aggression, I've got an empty spare bedroom and a limitless supply of TV trays in my freezer if you're willing to work for room & board.
"In my opinion, Victoria's television show is much less entertaining than "The Dog Whisperer""
I would have to agree with you on this. In terms of her clients there is a big change in her USA episodes. However, Cesar Millan is just naturally more charismatic than Victoria Stilwell. This I think comes out clearly in terms of ratings and viewership.
"he's getting slowly better with a combination of both discipline and rewards"
I think that is a very good way to go. All dogs need discipline - I believe that both Cesar Millan and Victoria Stilwell convey this in their respective shows. In this way, both are doing a service to the dog community.
Most of the disagreements people have are centered around the use of reward training vs. aversive training.
In terms of using reward training to control red-zone aggression cases - there are some great examples of that in DogTown. They had an episode where they rehabilitated the fighting dogs from Michael Vick's case. DogTown airs after the Dog Whisperer on NatGeo. It can be a difficult show to watch sometimes, but I really enjoy it.
This study on dog aggression is also interesting ...
http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/current/research/030
"I've got an empty spare bedroom and a limitless supply of TV trays in my freezer if you're willing to work for room & board."
LOL.
victoria stilwell's methods are better than ceaser's because she uses positive training. someone said aversive methods can work. 2 me thats not true. i've seen ceaser get bitten before for using aversive methods. all he does is torture the dog if its acting aggrissive. victoria gives the dog confidence. VICTORIA STILWELL ROX!!!! i've seen like all of her episodes i hate ceaser millan
Hi sjsj,
Personally, I also prefer using the reward techniques that Victoria Stilwell supports. She also has some really good ideas on how to keep dogs occupied such as timed toy dispensers, flavored bubble machines, and food toy puzzles.
However, I think that nothing is ever all good or all bad. There are always pros and cons to any training system, and to any dog trainer. I try my best to analyze both the good and the bad, so that I can make the best decisions for my dogs.
victoria stilwell has NEVER used a shock collar!!!!!!! whoever said that is WRONG ive seen like ALL of her episodes. the click thingy is a clicker which is a precurser 2 a treat.
Hello sjsj,
"victoria stilwell has NEVER used a shock collar"
That is very true. Victoria Stilwell is actually very much against shock collars as are most trainers. Studies in animal psychology show that shock collars are dangerous, can cause stress, and can encourage aggression in dogs.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Dog-Shock-Collar-Electroni
Always good to see you sjsj.
People who picked Cesar Milian are just lazy and aren't aware that they're psychologically harming the dog!
Amanda-Cesar Millan Is the Best!...psychologically harming the dog??? umm okay, i didn't know dogs were secretly undercover humans. You are obviously someone who humanizes their dog. He bases his techniques on how a dominant dog would respond to another dog in order to claim leadership. Cesar is not a Michael Vick, so I dont understand all these people who bash him saying he's harming the dogs. As he would say, dogs are not humans, and it's obvious that so many people are still portraying their dogs as human family members. People who pick Cesar Millan are lazy? So, when he recommends on almost every episode that you should walk your dog a minimum of 45 mins a day is being lazy? I'm not saying Victoria's methods don't work, but I find that Cesar's techniques worked better for me, and I have a shiba inu and he has no behavioral problems at all. I also noticed that both Cesar and Victoria have used some of the same techniques, like claiming space at the door. So to the people who keep bashing Cesar Millan, Open your eyes. If what Cesar is doing is harmful to the dogs, why is his show still on the air and successful and why hasn't PITA gone after him? people just need to stop hating and see that he is a dog lover just like you and I.
It seems interesting that I am starting to hear more and more of Millan in Stilwell's show. It seems that there is an unconscience appropriation of approach.
Victoria Stilwell did not invent these dog training methods, and neither did Cesar Millan. Many of these methods existed before their time.
I think it does not matter who invented the methods. What matters is which methods work best for our dogs, and those are the ones that we should use.
I think that is argument has been over-simplified too many times already.
An article that sums it up for me best is this one...
http://www.thedoghousellc.com/positively.html
The gentleman that wrote the article is a World... yes World Schutzhund Champion. He leans heavily to the positive side but clearly understands and identifies that positive only training can have its limitations.
I train dogs professionally also. I use aversives and reward. I don't think that one should ever exclude the other. Both have their place. The amount of each depends on the dog, the goals and the environments the dog will be exposed to.
If your dogs favorite thing in the world is chasing rabbits, all of the cheese treats in the world aren't going to get him to break off chase from a rabbit. This scenario is typically the challenge that I put to the positive only trainers.
The thing that I really don't like about Victoria is her approach to aggressive dogs.If the dog is truly fearful some of her methods can work. If the dog is dominant or territorial her methods can make the dog much worse. Bartering with a dominant dog will get you into big trouble. I have dealt with lots of aggressive dogs. I have had good success in this area.
Again I think that the public often wants to oversimplify what Cesar does. I don't condone anyone trying what he does. There isn't enough information given during the show to actually learn how to do these things properly.
As far as dogs not being pack animals. I disagree with that also. How come feral dogs form packs and will even hunt deer in the winter time as a pack? Do research on this and you will find my claims to be true.
With dog training absolutism is NEVER the way to go.
I read LazyDogRex's comments again and could not agree with him more.
"I have a two-hundred forty pound Mastiff who has an aggression problem, and he's getting slowly better with a combination of both discipline and rewards. There is no way, however, that Stillwell's methods could control him when control is necessary. I haven't watched every episode of "It's Me or the Dog," but I've never seen her deal with the behavior of a Red Zone aggressive dog in the 15-18 episodes I've watched.
"
I have a 140 lb. South African Boerboel that is a very dominant dog also. I don't get any real grief out of him. A dog like this would make a quick snack of Mrs. Stillwell, in the first 5 minutes. As far as her positive methods go, I would love to hand her a leash with a flat collar. I would simply walk away and watch her get dragged through the dirt as my dog would attempt to follow me. If she raised her voice at him or jumped in his way, it would be a very bad decision on her part.
She simply does not have the depth of experience to deal with a red-zone or even a dominant dog.
Hello daudet,
You bring up some really good points, and you present them in a very calm and informative manner. Also, thanks for the link.
In terms of reward vs. aversive, both work, and both are based on operant conditioning principles. Many people seem to only associate operant conditioning with reward techniques, but it actually encapsulates both styles of training, and provides a structure for us to understand how we can shape behavior, not just for dogs, but for all animals.
There is however an implicit assumption that aversive techniques work better, or that aversive techniques work better for all dominant dogs, which I personally do not agree with. It may work better for some dogs, but I am sure that would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis, by someone who understand dogs well. It is probably dependent on a variety of issues, one of which may be dominance.
I agree with you that dominance does exist in dogs, and it also exists in humans. Denying it, not wanting to talk about it, or using a different term for it, does not make it magically disappear.
My Shiba Inu is a pretty dominant dog. Luckily, he is a small dog. Aversive techniques did not work well on him at all - and yes I had many private lessons from traditional trainers, practiced doing leash corrections properly on a chain link fence to get the snap right, and spent a lot of time reading up on the ins and outs of various dog training techniques. I also visited with many traditional trainers who were not able to control him, and there was only one who had the right energy, was able to execute leash corrections with perfect force and timing, and was great at redirecting my Shiba Inu afterwards. My Shiba responded very well to that trainer, but only to that one.
Aversive techniques *do* work and can work well, but they are also difficult to execute well; even more so on a dominant and stubborn dog.
Personally, I will always use reward techniques first, and that includes both positive reinforcement for good behaviors and negative punishment to stop bad behaviors. This is because they are less risky, and the side-effects of making training mistakes are less serious than aversive techniques.
In truth though, there is no line that clearly divides both styles of training. It is more of a continuum and most of us are in the middle somewhere with biases towards one side or another. Taking reward techniques too far, and not wanting to even use a non-mark seems a bit extreme to me. For bad behaviors, negative punishment techniques work well, including techniques such as the body block, and timeouts which control the dog's resources.
On the other hand, using reward techniques worked out much better for my Shiba Inu compared to leash corrections, and certainly alpha rolls. Since then, I have never really had to do aversive corrections on my dogs. They are not going to win any competitions, but then, that is not the reason why I got my dogs.
It all depends on what we want from our dogs and the type of relationship we want to have.
As for truly aggressive dogs, most people are not equipped to handle them. In such cases, it is important to stay calm and not be fearful which is very difficult to do. Cesar can do it - that man has no fear, and that is a major part of the battle. The other parts has to do with reading the dog and execution of whatever technique with perfect timing.
None of these elements have anything to do with reward vs aversive techniques - it is the "everything else" surrounding it which makes all the difference.
Another very interesting point you brought up - prey drive and other instinctual drives which control dog behavior.
You are absolutely right that there will be times when certain drives are so strong in a dog that "nothing" will be able to counter its effects and that includes both reward and aversive stimuli.
For example, my Shiba Inu absolutely hates vet visits. He gets very fearful and goes into panic aggressive mode. No reward technique is going to work in the moment, but then neither will aversive techniques. The aversive stimulus he has to go through at the vet is already pretty horrible - to trump that I would have to apply something worse and make him fear my aversive stimuli more than the vet. That seems counter productive.
Still, the vet is something that he must do, so it is not all rainbows and sunshine at the end. But I try to give him as much rainbows and sunshine as I can. :)
first of all, ceaser millan sux. hes such a butt. hes also a dumbass. in case u havent notice ceaser fans, if a dog is being aggrisive or something like that, all he does is bug the crap out of it. hes just making the problem worse. its soooo funny when he gets bitten or when a dog tries 2 strike cause he doesnt know 2 leave the poor dog alone. everyone knows not to mess with a dog like that esspecilly when it wants 2 be aggrisive. its his fault. victoria stilwell is an amazing dog trainer!!!!!!!!!!!!!! she's genious!!!!!!!!!! she doesnt bug the crap out of dogs when they are feeling threatend. she gives the dog confidence. ROCK ON VICTORIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Totally off the subject but does Shiba have an amputated left front leg? She is SO beautiful!
My whole philosophy has been (raising malamutes of late) is that NO method works 100% - every dog (just like people) is a one-of-a-kind deal and you have to take into consideration so much when dealing with them as individuals....their breed, are they a rescue dog, etc. and you have to mold your training program to what will WORK with them - that is why we are the masters! ha ha Something that works with one dog will never work with another - even if they are the same breed. I think the solution to being "the ultimate dog whisperer" where you are Cesar or Victoria - or Audrey or whoever is just being flexible - thinking outside the box to problem solve. Not getting caught up in power plays but in just making the situation work in your own home/your own environment. Much as raising kids - is there just one way that works? I had 3 and I think not!
Yeah my Siberian (Shania) is a 3 legged dog. She doesn't let that slow her down one bit though :) She is very energetic and always up for doing something. She also uses my poor Shiba as her chew toy.
Siberian Shania was a c-section baby, and she was born with a crooked leg. We tried to straighten her bones, but sadly, the procedure did not work, and the surgeon recommended that we amputate.
And you are absolutely right - love the way you say it.
"I think the solution to being "the ultimate dog whisperer" where you are Cesar or Victoria - or Audrey or whoever is just being flexible - thinking outside the box to problem solve."
Would love to read a hub about it wrt. dogs and children :)
The Dog Whisperer in the News
- AARON HALL'S NEW CAREER: Dog Whisperer? Yes ... And He's Excellent! (Video)Eurweb2 days ago
*We knew Aaron had a special way with the ladies, but he's parlayed that talent into another industry. He has tapped into his inner dog and has become a Dog Whisperer.
- ' Dog Whisperer ' Cesar Millan in RosemontChicago Sun-Times4 days ago
The Dog Whisperer is headed this way.Cesar Millan, host of the National Geographic channel's " Dog Whisperer " show, brings his tour, PackPower, to the Rosemont Theatre at 8 p.m. Dec. 4.Millan will share his tips on how dogs -- and their owners -- can be transformed.Ticket prices start at $37.50. For tickets, call (800) 745-3000 or visit www.ticketmaster.com. ...
- Becoming the Alpha Dog in Your Own HomeNew York Times2 days ago
Parents are borrowing from Cesar Millan, the Dog Whisperer, who is known for inspiring discipline, order and devotion.
Nancy's Niche says:
7 months ago
Great article and pictures of your pets--Nice to see the one you were so worried about back to normal....