The Myth of the Volunteer Whore
73
Slavery and the 'World's Oldest Profession'
Prostitution is a topic that many people have trouble discussing in a calm or informed manner, but no matter where you personally think you stand on the issue, chances are good that you base your opinions on something I like to call The Myth of the Volunteer Whore.
The Myth of the Volunteer Whore is the widespread social belief that prostitution is a career choice made freely by adult women who either love sex or money or both, or who have limited skills in other areas and so choose the sex industry so they can properly support themselves.
Even people who know that underage prostitution and human trafficking are real and prevalent social problems still tend to buy into The Myth of the Volunteer Whore when discussing the topic.
Often they will start their discussions with a disclaimer like:
"Of course I'm not talking about sexual abuse or underage prostitution, but..."
And then they go on to make points that depend entirely on the notion that prostitution is a choice freely made that involves an exchange of money between consenting adults.
What I want to point out here, is that while we can certainly define the terms so that a discussion of prostitution is more palatable and more tailored to how we think the world should be, choosing to do that badly perverts our conclusions.
If you start with fantasy you end up with fantasy.
That is why such discussions often become little more than mental and verbal masturbation exercises. We never get at the real heart of the matter, but we all feel better and can go about our normal business feeling like we've thought it all through.
The problem is that, while some forms of prostitution do appear to be freely chosen and straightforward (especially in places where prostitution is legal and regulated by the state), most prostitution is slavery and abuse, pure and simple.
It's tempting to create two categories of prostitution for the sake of steering clear of painful and horrifying realities:
- the 'good' kind of prostitution (that is, the voluntary and consensual kind) and
- the 'bad' kind of prostitution (the kind that involves pimps, or underage girls or boys, or human trafficking).
In reality those two categories are artificial and imaginary.
It doesn't break down nearly that cleanly.
For example, even prostitution that appears consensual on the surface is often the end result of years of unmitigated sexual abuse and violence against the woman who 'chooses' the life. Such unrelenting violence creates a damaged adult who has been conditioned to believe her sexuality is her only valuable trait.
It's very difficult to look at the real stories of real adult prostitutes and not wonder what they might have become had they not spent their early years having sex with their step-fathers, living on the streets, scoring drugs, running with criminals, or being beaten up and degraded by male relatives.
What's more, even 'legitimate' brothels can and do become the workplace of illegal immigrants terrorized into paying off their passage to America with their bodies.
In the typical example, women in China, Mexico, Russia, or parts of Southeast Asia are offered legitimate jobs in the U.S. for fees that can run as high as $40,000 per person or more.
Once these girls arrive in the United States, they find that they are actually indentured to a brothel. If they do not work off the money they owe for their passage, their brokers then threaten to report them and have them arrested and deported. Or, something even worse happens.
According to the Factbook on Global Sexual Exploitation produced by the University of Rhode Island, as many as 5,000 Chinese immigrant women are being prostituted in this way in Los Angeles alone.
How do you know if you are dealing with a volunteer prostitute or someone who is being terrorized into the life or who has been abused and degraded into it? Most of the time you don't know. You can't know. If you ask her directly, you most likely will not get the truth. If you check around too much on her behalf, you could find yourself beaten up or worse, or you could cause some harm to come to her.
It's easy to get into prostitution and hard to get out.
But most people wouldn't know that. And most people don't want to know that.
Women who have been prostituted themselves are understandably reluctant to discuss that part of their lives publically. Women who are very public about how great the life is are usually spokespersons for the sex industry. In other words, they are doing a commercial.
Do you believe everything you hear in commercials?
So which is really 'the world's oldest profession'?
Prostitution?
Or slavery?
But At Least It Doesn't Happen Here
Actually it does.
Because it is getting harder and harder to import underage sex workers illegally, the average age at which prostitutes in the United States first begin working has declined over the past ten years from 16 to 14. Here are some quick facts about prostitution as it is actually practiced in the United States today:
- More than 90% of prostitutes suffered sexual abuse as a child (often incest).
- Approximately 75% of prostitutes have been violently raped in situations outside of their workplace.
- The average length of time that a prostitute in America spends prostituting is 4 years.
- 2/3 of prostitutes begin working when they are 16 years old or younger.
- 1.2 million children in the U.S. are involved in child prostitution.
- At least 300,000 male prostitutes under the age of 16 exist in the U.S.
Still think prostitution is mostly a consensual act involving two adults and an exchange of money? Really?
Think about all the prostitutes you know. What, you don't know any prostitutes? Oh, you know one, from that one time you and your buddies got really hammered and ... she said she absolutely was in it because she loved it? She wouldn't lie about that, would she?
Or, if that doesn't convince you, consider this:
Imagine that prostitution (a perfectly acceptable job choice for a young woman) has been legalized, mainstreamed, and is now taught at public high schools as a valued skill. On career day, the local madam comes down and gives a little talk about benefit packages, pay grades, and opportunities for advancement. Students compete for a spot in the brothel after graduation but only a lucky few are selected. Imagine the proud parents of the successful candidates! You'd want that for your own daughter wouldn't you?
No?
Maybe The Myth of the Volunteer Whore serves a larger social purpose. Maybe it is a category into which we can throw damaged people, much like a trash bin, and then pick them up and use them for whatever we like without guilt or shame.
They volunteered, right?
By unanimous vote, that's our story as a society and we're sticking to it. Works out better for everyone that way. It's our safety valve. It keeps our tragedies under wraps and gives our dysfunctional men something to do besides molest youngsters.
Or maybe I'm just being a big killjoy.
Either way, I'm throwing it out there for your consideration.
In the end, you'll think what you want anyway.
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Comments
You outlined the real tragedy of prostitution as it exists and the reasons for most of it in an extremely factual hub. Now.....how can this be curtailed much less ended? That is a bigger problem.
Wow! powerful hub. This happens to be an issue I find extremely compelling. Finding a way of ending this tragic problem, here in our own country, should be foremost in the minds of americans. But who do we get to tackle the job?
pgrundy, you have asked some tough questions. Wow! We would want to deny that the dirty little secret is there, but it. How do we begin to protect our vulnerable children? This is the billion dollar question. I wonder what are the penalties for a john caught with 14 year old? I suppose I'm feeling that we are failing as a society.
That just came straight out of your heart, didn't it? I could feel the passion in your voice when I read those words. You are so on spot when you infer that prostitution can never be a normal individual's choice of career - there are horrid stories in the backgound for both who claim it to be their choice along with those who don't.
Thankyou, for such a powerful wakeup call!
Excellent -- made me review some of my assumptions, and good grief, as nazishnasim says above, what a wake up call.
It IS slavery in most cases, isn't it? The women in Nevada who are so well treated and who love to have sex are a tiny minority.
Outstanding Hub. Not an easy subject. Great job of presenting that side of the subject. Well done.
Hi everyone,
Thank you for your comments. I really appreciate your thoughts and the fact that you took the time to read this. A thread in the forums made me think I should inject a little reality into the topic. I hope it wasn't too harsh.
I don't know how to stop this kind of abuse. I think first people have to be willing to be educated about the sexual realities lots of kids grow up with, but right now people have such incendiary moral agendas that never seems to go well.
Really we have to get beyond seeing this as moral issue and see it for what it is: an issue of human justice an severe inequality. When everyone has an equal shot in the world, you don't get so much of this. But when there are huge gaps you do.
I guess we would have to be willing to 1) face the truth about sexuality as it actually is, not as we wish it was, 2) create transparency and prosecute violations vigorously, and 3) provide social services for prostitutes so they can get out nad have a shot at a real life.
I don't see that likely to happen in this political climate, but I think it should happen. I mean, that's what I personally support.
Thanks again. :)
Fantastic facts pgrundy. I can't thank you enough for writing this. That may sound strange, but I've brought up these points time and again only to be called, well, jealous or envious or naive. Hmh.
Frieda, thank you! I believe you. I usually avoid the topic myself for the same reasons. It's the kind of thing where some people are going to think what they think no matter if you bury them in evidence to the contrary, but I got to thinking about it at the forum and took the plunge. Thanks for your support. :)
"People will bellieve what they want to believe; don't bother them with facts", one of my all time fave quotes apropos or Frieda's and your comment, Pam :-)
I think the volutary prostitution rate is so small it's really a non entity. But still, some will use the flashy TV & Vegas highlights to discuss the topic as if THAT was the general norm. Oh well.
Well done, Grundy, I'm not sorry *you* are doing this crazy 100 hub challenge :-)
Thanks Elena,
Yes I guarantee someone will post here something to the effect of they have a cousin who has a friend who is a prostitute and she totally loves it or is making a mint or whatever. And someone will show up and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. (I've had this discussion more than once. lol!)
Thanks for your support. I'm at 24 hubs, so I'm lagging, but I could still make it with two and half weeks to go. :)
Pam, most of our life choices are influenced by events from our past, and prostitution is no different. As your hub so ably points out, we are foolish and naive if we suspect otherwise. It's incredibly hard to break out of a cycle of abuse, and all too easy for vulnerable young people to be coerced down a path of no return. There's no easy answer to this problem, and so long as society sweeps it under the carpet, it won't go away any time soon.
Hi Amanda,
I fear you're right. I don't think there is the social will to fix it. And it doesn't help that high-level politicians and other persons in places of power make use of prostitution themselves. Kind of skews their views on it. Thanks for your thoughts.
I thought there was voluntary prostitution and the slavery one, but your article made me realize that even when its "voluntary", there can't be much inner balance or inner freedom to live a life selling their bodies. Just a thought, probably am not making much sense. LOL!
Good luck again, with the challenge!
Good hub and the delicate facts are stated with fairness and supporting facts...Good job!
Pam, fantastic hub. You heightened my awareness here. I don't think society gives two hoots and there is definitely not the will to fix it. Shame on us.
Actually, you've made some good points here.
I think the biggest is that even in states where it's currently legal, it does draw women who've already been victimized. I have known some individuals -- as close friends -- who were all for legalization and who did choose their profession. So I don't dismiss it as a fantasy mostly because I knew them backstage and understood their individual situations.
But they're rarer than most people think and they're not the pretty young things. They were middle aged kinky sorts who weren't great stunners in the looks department but had gotten into a good situation mostly by focusing on dominatrix and fetish niches where the underground is a bit different -- and all had relatively short client lists carefully chosen and managed their own careers.
What I think contributes a lot to the problem is that teenagers who wind up thrown out by their families or run away from abusive families do not have legitimate work available in most cases.
The one thing I've done to help is that if I knew a kid in a bad situation I tried to teach that kid to draw portraits or scenery, get them into doing sketches for money. It can bring in plenty and in a lot of venues doesn't require licensing or age checks -- it requires skill and very often they can legitimately sell it to other kids who have enormous amounts of spending money.
That's the one and only safe track for food and a place to crash that I know of that a teenager can pursue without having emancipation papers in hand and a lot of connections that are legitimate. Laws put into place to protect kids also protect the rights of abusers to get their kids back no matter what.
For some reason too it seems like odd but nonabusive parents get the full weight of the system or unlucky but nonabusive parents who've had financial trouble, while so many of the worst abusers get away with it and get the kid back a dozen times.
Illegality doesn't help at all though, especially not the way it's enforced. I think the possibility of adult consensual prostitution is curtailed severely by the stigma and the way people treat anyone who's ever done it, especially women. There's so much social stigma to it that it would take either an extreme social rebel or someone abused who believes they were "ruined" by the abuse or deserved it to wind up in it.
I still support the social rebels though, the women behind Coyote and other groups. They may have come out of very rough situations but they formed a labor union and I will not speak against it, also their efforts may help to cut back on the underage slavery.
It's not a simple issue, but the one thing that's so wrong is the double standard and the way the penalties always fall on the prostitute herself rather than any of her customers, usually so prominent anyway. They get nothing or a slap on the wrist, another whole level of injustice.
And as long as kids do not have the option to file for emancipation by themselves and seek legitimate avenues of employment, lay down their child labor protections in bad situations, the slavery will continue. There's my view. This connects strongly with several of my hot button topics.
"...while some forms of prostitution do appear to be freely chosen and straightforward (especially in places where prostitution is legal..."
That's not a coincidence.
Hi Pam: A very candid picture...whether someone likes it or not but that's the truth. I once saw a five-hour long movie on 'human trafficking' picturing underage girls from Manila being forced into prostitution. You have to believe me if I say that I wasn't able to eat for next two days. It felt like a volcano of rage erupting inside me but at the same time I felt completely helpless for not being able to do anything for such needy girls across the globe. Good of you to have brought this up.
My mother deals with social service cases and the plight of some girls to cater to this "profession" for its never ending demand dehumanizes women leaving many of them scarred for life even after being rescued/rehabilitated by NGO's. Thumbs up for a thoughtful hub.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I appreciate you taking the time to read this and express them.
BTW I don't think legalization will make it all better but it's a step in the right direction. It at least yanks some of it into the light, but there has to be mroe done than that.
Also the word I was stressing in the line "...while some forms of prostitution do appear to be freely chosen and straightforward (especially in places where prostitution is legal..." is the word 'appear'.
Pam I've linked this hub to Facebook and it's was viewed 10 minutes later.
This topic deserves massive discussion, though I fear it will take major shifts in our behavior as a whole, and shifts in our ethical concerns for children at large to address this huge problem.
Here in Enlgand it appears that the most usual way for young prostitutes to make the national news is by being murdered. I don't know the statistics, but it seems that every few years there is a cluster of murders of young prostittues. The women have often become estranged for their families and addicted to drugs. I've read newspaper quotes of family members saying "I had no idea" (Of course, I don't believe everything I read in the papers). Drug addiction seems to be a fairly regular feature. I guess once one develops an expensive habit, there is a need to earn money to support that habit... I enjoyed your Hub. Your writing is always good, and this one was a good wake up call to not believe everything, especially comfortable thoughts (myths) that disguise evil practices.
A very powerful Hub bringing in light a very important topic. The topic which we all laugh away is actually very serious and you have done a great job discussing about it. These kinds of discussion really needs strong platform like Hubpages to be made heard! A big thumbs up!
Hi Jewels,
Thank you for linking the hub to Facebook. I agree that it would be great to see this issue taken more seriously, but like you, I believe we would first have to change ourselves in a big way and that's the daunting part. Two big problems are denial and a lack of understanding of the dynamics of sexual abuse. Many people personally have sexual abuse issues that they have not dealt with and may never deal with, so anything that stirs up those feelings (such as talking about prostitution and its relationship to severe abuse and exploitation) often causes people to become reactive and irrational in any number of ways. Add that to the fact that many high-placed men frequent prostitutes and do not want their names to be a matter of public record (as they might be were it all legal) and you already have a mess, and it gets even more difficult for any number of other reasons. So it's overwhelming, but I think it's still worth trying to be truthful about it instead of glossing it over. Thanks.
2patricias--That is so distressing, but it happens here too. It's a very, very dangerous line of work.
packerpack--thank you for your thoughts and your support. I really appreciate it.
I agree that prostitution is rarely a chosen profession. Human trafficking and sex slavery, early sexual abuse, addiction - huge social problems, with tragic consequences. Thanks for your candid writing.
Thanks for commenting, Nana. I'm on the same page with you there.
Pam - I think you have probably given a fairly accurate picture of the 'industry' in the States. It's similar in Uk. But it really doesn't come close to describing the situation in the middle, near and far East. At the risk of offending, I'd have to say that some of my best friends could be called prostitutes, but only by people who have never left 'home'. The difference is self respect. But please don't shoot me down in flames for saying that. The world's a big place.
Your emotions are bubbling over on this one, eh? A very interesting read, as always. I think it's it bit absolute (the pathos runneth mightily) and might undermine the point a smidgeon, but some of the facts you have given are startling and really, really disturbing. From one writer to another, I'd say your case would be strengthened by pointing out the instances where it is voluntary. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,480037,00.html is just one example. I realize this may be a rare sort of situation, but the best arguments are made with a nod to their weaknesses, however small or rare those weaknesses might be.
This Hub presents disturbing realities, all too clearly. I applaud you for writing it and evoking us to think more deeply. While I am conservative on most social issues, I have always favored the legalization of drugs and prostitution. It seems to me, the women would be safer and healthier with the Amsterdam model (not to mention the tax windfall). I do not think prostitution is going to stop. Men are driven to sex and many of them can't get any the regular way, so they want to buy some.
Human trafficking is a sickening problem. And I agree many are forced into prostitution. I am not so sure that because someone was abused by their step-dad, as horrible as that is, that this makes them an involuntary prostitute because, obviously, most abused women do not go that route so it is a chosen route for a few. What happens to us may be out of our control but our actions; our choices; we should take responsibility for. If not the list is endless of excuses we could make for the things we do.
I have personally known women who are not prostitutes per say, but they do date older, wealthy men exclusively, and only have sex with them if they buy them expensive things or take them on exotic vacations.
How about high priced call girls like that Heidi Fleiss—involuntary?
Or the girls in Amsterdam—involuntary?
How about exotic dancers such as you have up there at Deja Vu? Involuntary?
I am not asking these questions for any reason other than to see what you think about these related issues. I am glad I read your Hub. It affected me and gave me a broader insight into the issue than I had just minutes ago. Thank you!
There needs to be a concerted effort to go after those making the real dollars off these people. Until the source of the misery is eradicated, it will always exist. anyone found guilty of trafficing in human beings should get the death penalty.
I admire your style. Not only do you write and research well, but you also leave me considering the content of your articles long after I have finished reading them... the essence of real debate.
Hi guys and gurls,
Thanks for you comments. I'm getting pretty much exactly the comments I expected to get on this--all over the map.
Shades, I take your points and respect your advice, especially on writing and argument. But I question the approach of presenting two sides of an issue as if they have equal weight when the central point I wanted to make here is that one side is weak to the point of being fantasy.
I didn't expect a big pat on the head and a hug for my position on this. It is fairly intractable, and trust me, I've been through this before, so I knew what I'd get in response.
I was talking about it in the forums so I wrote this as a kind of counter to the tone of that discussion, which totally took off on the premise that prostitution is voluntary in most cases, or that there are two kinds, voluntary and not. Whenever you make an absolute statement, of course people will chime in with exceptions and they will be right--there are exceptions to every rule--but I do think I said what I meant here, backed it up with some facts, some experience, and I feel that emotional content is entirely appropriate given the subject matter.
I'm not as against polemic as you are. I think it has its uses and this is one place where it fits. I don't get fired up much but when I do I pretty much stay there.
Paraglider--OK, but if we are to get into some kind of thing where I compare my prostitute friends with your prostitute friends to see which group is more representative of prostitutes in general, I think that goes nowhere. You can certainly pull rank on me by virtue of being more widely traveled, but I kind of feel like that's a cheap shot. If I wanted to pull in my personal experiences we could be at it all day trying to trump one another's authority on the matter.
Clearly I haven't had the same experiences with prostitutes that you have, but we can agree the world is a big place. There's that.
I chose not to write this from my personal experiences because I don't feel like sharing those on the internet, but I realize that decision gives everyone who 'personally knows' a prostitute an opening to suggest that I don't know jack on the basis of having no personal experience.
On the other hand, had I written this from personal experience, what I had to say would be disqualified on the basis that "you are too close to the issue, Pam, you can't see it clearly."
So it goes. Like I said, I've been here before.
Great Hub. This is a controversial topic. Very well written.
PGrundy, this is precisely what needs to be shouted into the face of every man who ever even thinks about using a prostitute. Thank you so much for writing it.
Well, equal weight isn't what I was getting at, I probably should have been more precise (lol, the irony of me trying to tell you how to make points and can't even make my own LOL). I was thinking more just a "nod" like a throw away, even sarcastic, "Granted, there might be .0000000004% that do so willingly, but I cast those off in the name of WTF is wrong with society?" sort of thing. Still, I see your point, and sometimes taking a stance requires 100% commitment. The upside is that when you get fired up, you write excellent hubs.
Hi Tom, thank you. I appreciate that.
Shades--I gotcha. I wasn't really trying to persuade anyone--it was more along the lines of that time your kid got sent home for wearing the wrong t-shirt and it pissed you off. So this was like that for me, but not funny on any level, which makes it more uncomfortable for people to read. I already know that people believe what they want to believe on this subject (including me) and that nothing I say one way or the other will persuade them. I always appreciate what you have to say, critical or not. Writeristically (that's a word, right?), you rock. :)
Agreed that sexual abuse is in the background of most prostitutes. And of many drug abusers as well. Not only sexual abuse, but usually a history of being invalidated by close relatives and authority figures, and a certain vulnerability. Whether your statistics are totally accurate or not, I don't know. You cite an internet source that doesn't cite her sources. Statistics are notoriously unreliable.
All that said, even if these women did not become prostitutes, it is very likely that most would be in abusive relationships. Criminalizing prostitution appears to be remarkably ineffective in preventing women from prostituting, but does guarantee that they will be further abused by incarceration and stigma. True prevention would mean doing a lot more for children and families than we as a society are currently doing.
Pam - I ceratinly wasn't trying to pull rank regarding travels. But from what I've seen, there is a very wide spectrum in the profession, with many in full control of their lives and not in thrall to anyone, while others are certainly victims of one sort or another. Criminalising them doesn't do any good at all.
I think the important message of this Hub is that men who visit prostitutes have no idea whether they're "voluntary" or "coerced", and since the majority are likely to be coerced, the right thing is not to take advantage of the service.
However, I also see the other side of the coin. In historical times, prostitutes were looked down on but many women chose the profession because it gave them far more freedom and power than becoming a wife, who was no more than a chattel, had no rights and couldn't own any property. In some countries that situation still exists.
And we must remember there are men AND women in our society who value money above all else, and will do anything to get it, including selling their bodies.
Paraglider & Paul Ball--My two main points here are that 1) when it comes to the topic of prostitution, there is a strong tendency, especially for men, to believe what is comfortable, and 2) that what appears to be true of any given prostitute you might think you know may or may not really be true.
In fact I think I did say both of those things, and what I'm hearing you both say is that based on your personal experience or based on what you think you know about it personally, I'm wrong. There's really nothing I can say to that. I mean, that's the end of it, isn't it?
The Rhode Island report does cite sources, but that's beside the point anyway. Like I said, people will believe what the want to believe on this issue not matter what kind of evidence is put forth. If I dumped a truckload of evidence all over this page, someone would still show up and say, "Well I personally know prostitutes who clearly chose it all freely and are perfectly happy people."
It just frosts me that whenever I have this discussion anywhere, on paper, in person, anywhere, half the guys pat me on the head and say the equivalent of 'there, there, let's calm down, shall we?' and the other half dismiss my points with, 'you're wrong I know a couple happy prostitutes case closed.' But that's just going to happen. There's nothing I can do about it. People get to think what they want to think.
Marisa--Thanks for your thoughts and for the clarification. I'm not how sure how many women historically chose prostitution for the freedom. I think you're right though that in the case of poor widows or young women without families they often would try to use their beauty and sexual attractiveness to become courtesans to powerful men, but I doubt there were enough of those slots available for all the women who needed them. If you read Dafoe's novel about Moll Flanders, even though it is randy and funny in parts, it's also pretty unpleasant and gives a fairly accurate depiction of what that life was like for an 'average' prostitute in England at the time of the colonization of America.
Pam - {In fact I think I did say both of those things, and what I'm hearing you both say is that based on your personal experience or based on what you think you know about it personally, I'm wrong. There's really nothing I can say to that. I mean, that's the end of it, isn't it?}
I have not said you are wrong. I accept both of your points, 1&2. I was trying to contribute to the discussion and regret my contribution was not welcome on this occasion.
It's just tone deaf, that's all. I'm sorry I snapped at you. I like your writing and appreciate your thoughts, but on this specific issue I found the response you chose to make insensitive in the extreme. I'm sorry you don't understand why, because I don't really know how to explain it. It's one of those things that if you don't understand why, then there's really no point in me explaining it.
I'll try anyway:
You know, the whole point of the essay is that the volunteer whore is rare and that prostitution and human trafficking are serious problems in both developing and developed nations, including the U.S., and that they do enormous damage to women and no one really cares about it because this myth of the volunteer is so widely accepted and the prevalence of the myth lets people off the hook.
So, that being the case, we could open up all kinds of appropriate and badly needed discussions of how to alleviate those problems, what steps would help protect women, how to change sexual attitudes, how to address the lack of balance in the public discussions of prostitution (that is, people who have been harmed for obvious reasons have less of a voice even though thy represent the majority of people directly involved), the very strong connection of the sexual abuse of minors to the sex trade, how sexual abuse distorts values and distorts sexuality itself, how prostitution as it is currently practiced here in the U.S. involves incredible deception and is a gateway crime (extortion of customers a prime example), how commodifying sex has serious personal consequences, and so forth...We could open all kinds of interesting and relevant discussions, but instead, predictably, it's always, "I personally know some happy voluntary prostitutes."
It's not just you, either. Some guy ALWAYS steps forward to say that, you just had the bad luck of being the guy to say it first and to say it to me. And it does shock me a bit, because you are the guy who, if I were to say in the context of religion, "I had this or that experience and that proves whatever," you'd be the first to point out to me that it proves nothing, it's evidence of nothing except that I had an experience that I interpreted as this or that. Which I think is correct. But here, a different standard applies. So yes, that does bother me, even if it doesn't surprise me.
Thank you for your thoughts on it though, and for taking the time to reply.
{We could open all kinds of interesting and relevant discussions, but instead, predictably, it's always, "I personally know some happy voluntary prostitutes."}
Yes, we could, but not until you do me the courtesy of not caricaturing my thoughts with "I personally know some happy voluntary prostitutes."
And by the way, I am not 'some guy', unless you're 'some dame'? I would never insult you that way. I'm surprised that you take me that way.
I guess we surprised each other. I apologize for caricaturing your thoughts and for insulting you. What way was I to take it though?
If I caricatured your meaning, please clarify it.
I'll try, and thank you for the opportunity. It is maybe not good, but it's true, that the world works on money. It is not good, but it's true, that in most parts of the world men have more money than women.
For simplicity, let's agree that there are male prostitutes out there, but the main focus of your discussion is not on them. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I would say that there is a continuum from, at the low end, girls forced into prostitution, many of whom have been victims of abuse or who are feeding a drug habit; through women who perhaps have a child or aging parent to support and no social security or 'legitimate' work prospect to help them; through women who don't need to do it, but reckon that a few tough years are worth it, to give their families a boost; through women who can pick and choose between well off 'clients' whom they may even like a lot; through women who take the occasional risk in search of a providing husband; through women who simply marry for security, etc. etc.
I think the labels 'prostitute', 'whore' are far too blunt. Take money out of the equation, and all that is left is this:
Is a third party profiting from the liaison? If yes, it's prostitution.
If no third party is profiting, you're on the continuum.
OK. Like every other business, the 'third party' isn't always obvious. At the low end, it's the abusive pimp. At the top end, it could be a Government Department, six levels removed, issuing visas and work permits.
Pam - we could probably talk about this for hours, on the understanding that it isn't an isolatable phenomenon with goodies and baddies.
Thank you for that more detailed explanation. I do see what you were driving at, and regret that I misinterpreted what you meant in your much briefer comment. If my own attempts to engage others on the issue weren't so peppered with unpleasant and misinformed comments from men who meant exactly what I thought you meant (but as it turns out you didn't mean), I probably wouldn't have bit you. I'm sorry.
My own background with this issue is more on the horrible end of things, and as this is the United States, it's all very ugly, covered over, secretive, and so forth. I always feel that hardly anyone cares, because I think that really, hardly anyone DOES care, and it's hard to do anything about it all anyway.
I hear all the time about the 'high end call girl' who is working her way through college and so forth, but have only met misery and despair in my own life, and people who don't want to talk about it ever again if do they get away. So I think of them when I discuss prostitution, not the feelings of men who speculate, and I see that I did jump on you unfairly. Also, as is clear, I have a good bit of anger about it that I think will never go away. I mean, I'm 56. I'm still pissed. I guess that won't change.
I appreciate you taking the time to clarify your meaning. And I agree, we probably could talk for hours about it. Thank you.
I'm also 56. It comes of being born in '52. I'm sure we'll talk again soon :)
Ah, I was born in 53. You must be a couple of months my senior.
Well, it's good to be younger than SOMEbody.
Clear, concise hub about a very raw topic. Excellent job. I agree with you 100%.
At three years old, I was walking with my mom in the parking lot of Sears department store when we were approached by a man who asked Mom for directions. This was in the early 1980's. She gave him directions, and he commented on what a pretty little girl I was. Of course, Mom agreed, and answered when he asked how old I was. He then asked if Mom would be willing to sell me to him.
She ran with me to the store entrance, took me inside, and told someone. The man had vanished by the time a store employee ran out there. No one called the police, or reported it to anyone else, except Mom did tell my dad later.
Now, if you didn't think that was scary enough, my mom kept reminding me of that incident throughout my life, and telling me to be glad that she loved me enough to not sell me.
Child prostitutes can be runaways, kids with nowhere to go, those who have been abused, but they can also be children whose parents have given up on them or decided that money was better than taking care of their child.
I guess I'm one of the "lucky" ones who never got into that life, even though I don't remember the incident myself (only the retelling).
Hi KT,
Wow, that's a very disturbing story. I don't which thing is more upsetting--the incident itself, or the fact that your Mom told you about it over and over again and reminded you to be grateful. My own Mom used to tell me a similarly unpleasant story over and over the punchline of which was, "You were so sickly as a child you shouldn't be alive," which I guess was meant to convey, "I'm glad you are alive," but phrased in that particular way kinda conveys the message, "You should be dead.Why aren't you dead?" I mean, your Mom's story is kind of like that too. It kind of says, "I could sell you at any time but I don't. Never forget that you are totally dependent on my good will." Whoa! Kinda heavy handed.
Did our moms know each other??? LOL!
On a more serious note, a number of girls at my junior high were involved in prostitution. It was right out there. No one cared, no one tried to help them (to my knowledge anyway). One of them, who had a habit of cutting herself and inking in the cuts (like a prison tattoo) killed hersef I when I was in 8th grade. I vividly remember the other girls saying before it happened that she couldn't last because she was a "cutter," and they don't last.
I'm glad I live in the suburbs now. My worst problem is finding a parking place at the mall.
You have touched on a clear misunderstanding among the general public. If more people speak out for these children, maybe their forced slavery will stop. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
Thank you Cailin.
Controversial topic. Well researched and well written. However, there are high priced call girls catering to the wealthy, both here and in the UK. they come from modelling and the film or TV industry, operate for themselves and are very picky. In my newspaper days I met and interviewd some of these people,anonymously of course, and you would staggered at the big names involved. This is the flip side of the sordid side which you presented and which, very much, exists here too. Middle Eastern and Far Eastern girls are indentured at a young age and build up huge debt from which they cannot realistically escape. Rape, incest, disease and sordidness are very much with us. Not to mention Pimps , minders and enforcers.
Great Hub Pam well writtten.
Thank you sixtyorso, I appreciate your thoughts on it and your comment. Here we recently had the Elliot Spitzer scandal, and I'm sure it goes beyond that. Not much hope for reform when government and law enforcement are implicated too.
Pam, how often do people hear about the grizzly murder of a woman and react with sympathy and concern. But if they hear she was a prostitute, you can just see the concern fall away and even hear some say, 'oh well, it was only a prostitute.'
And as for the fine and fabulous life some people like to think that some prostitutes lead, how about slaves - the ones who worked in nice houses, ate well, and were treated decently. They were still slaves.
Hi Delores, I agree. I don't think there are many women on the volunteer end of it. It's telling how badly people seem to want to preserve that as a point of reference. Thanks for your comment.
I just saw the most incredible movie with Antonio Banderas and Jo Lo about the murders and rapes of scoreso f young indian girls in Jaurez, Mexico and how their lives are incidental to the cheap labour and free trade agreement between Mexico and the USA. The story is based on fact but I forget the Movies name. This movie paints a pretty grim picture on effectively slave labour and prostitution as well.
Hi sixtyorso--We also just watched a good movie about prostitution. It was billed as a comedy but it was actually a fairly revealing portraint of underage prostitution--the plot was set up to be 'funny' but it ended up showing it fairly realistically. It was called 'The Babysitters.' Worth watching if you ever see it anywhere.
Good Hub. This is a controversial topic
Hi Pam,
I just happened to find your site a few days ago and I want to say that I am really impressed by your writing. I like the way you think, as it comes across not only from your essays, but from your replies to to other poster's comments as well.
That said, or perhaps because of that, I was really surprised to read your response to Paraglider and I am wondering what it is in his post that would compell you to say you had misunderstood his earlier comments. I personally don't see anything there other than some variation of the same old "but some do it because they like it". Moreover, some parts of his argument seem a bit incoherent, to put it mildly. What do you see there that I don't?
And, to Paraglider, you say - for example -
"I think the labels 'prostitute', 'whore' are far too blunt. Take money out of the equation, and all that is left is this:Is a third party profiting from the liaison? If yes, it's prostitution. If no third party is profiting, you're on the continuum."
- Well, ehm, excuse me but - if you take money out of the equation, how could somebody (anybody) profit??? Given that the whole idea of prostitution revolves around money, it would be kind of hard to take it out of the equation, wouldn't it?
If no third party benefits it's not prostitution? That's a novel idea to me - I've always thought that if a woman performs sexual favors primarily for the purpose of earning money (or other type of material compensation), it's called prostitution. To what extent would the third party have to benefit in your scenario? If a high priced call girl hires an answering service, that would be prostitution (she pays them for the service, no doubt they benefit from her liasons, they may even promote her services as sort of a virtual pimp)? But if a poor or homeless woman goes to a truck stop to earn a few dollars (but has no pimp) - that's not prostitution, because she pocketed the entire $20? Come again?
Or perhaps you meant (I'm just speculating here) a situation where it's forced and a third party is the primary beneficiary - but I think that would be more accurately described as sexual slavery or servitude.
Another quote from your post:
" I would say that there is a continuum from, at the low end, girls forced into prostitution, many of whom have been victims of abuse or who are feeding a drug habit; through women who perhaps ....."
- So, if someone is forced into prostitution (presumably for the benefit of a third party) is she - or isn't she "on the continuum"?? Because a few paragraphs later you seem to be directly contradicting that by drawing a line between "prostitution" on the one end vs. "the continuum" (whatever that means, really) on the other, based solely on the existence of a third party which benefits from the liason. So which is it?
I have to say I am confused by your post and puzzled by Pam's acceptance of it.
Furthermore, what exactly is you point, Paraglider? That not all prostitutes are the same? That some are better off than others? We'd have to agree on that. But that, I believe, was not - as the lawyers like to say - THE ISSUE here.
Hi xcheck,
Thank you for asking those questions. It's like this: Sometimes it's good to have an exit door even if you have to cut one in a solid wall. Or, there's the familiar phrase, "Choose your battles." I've been through this same dialog so many times in my life and I have strong feelings about it. I said what I think pretty clearly in the hub, and I knew somebody would come by and say something that would make me go ballistic. I just didn't think it would be PG, who I know and basically like. So I just dropped it. It may not cover me in forensic glory but it got me out of a tense moment that wasn't worth it.
In general I think it's hard to discuss this topic calmly because 1) mostly people have no direct experience of it and want to believe what they want to believe, and 2) it's not a good idea to share direct negative experiences for lots of reasons, the most compelling being "oh, you're just bitter and unbalanced because of your terrible direct experiences that coincidentally do prove your point so we shall now discount everything that comes out of your mouth." So I went with statistics and got the same kinds of responses I expected to get anyway, as if it's some kind of abstract debate or something, as opposed to quantifiable real life.
Some hubs I think I should write but not comment--just let other people duke it out. This was one of those.
Pam you are so wise and diplomatic to boot.
Pam great hub! I think I saw that movie Sixty was talking about, and another on on child trafficking. A really real problem but as long as there's a demand, some greedy people will exploit others and supply it!
Thanks sixtyorso! I don't know if that's really true, but I'll take the compliment! lol!
Cindy--It's really a big problem right now in the world, but what upsets me is that it happens right in the U.S. and we're supposedly so great and caring and wonderful. You're right, as long as there's a need people will step up.
Pgrundy:
Thank you for that clarification. I had actually suspected that perhaps you just had an “aaaw shucks, I give up” moment. And I don’t blame you at all. I hear you, sister. And I do like that imagery of needing an exit so badly that you’d be willing to take an axe to a solid wall – LOL – that conveys the sense of exasperation very well. It’s just that both PG’s post and you reply to it pushed some of my buttons. One of which is seeing how we (women) are conditioned to “play nice” – and how often men get away with murder (figuratively speaking) because of that.
As to “duking it out”, as you put it – well, I was not looking to start a fight here, but I am not opposed to duking it out as long as that means attacking each other’s arguments and positions and not each other personally. As a matter of fact I pretty much never get into online discussions because it almost always seems to deteriorate into a vicious fight and juvenile name-calling pretty quickly. What impressed me about this thread was the civility of literally every poster who commented here. So, no, I’m not here to start a brawlJ
Rather, what I was wondering was if we could use your essay to jump-start a discussion that goes a little beyond the “well, that s terrible, yeah, good hub, well done” type of response. For example, a number of women here expressed their sense of outrage and helplessness – and I too feel like I’d like to do something, but don’t know what. So, what if we used this as an opportunity to share ideas, to brainstorm a bit – about causes, possible solutions … etc.
I can go first and put my $.02 in – I just read recently about a relatively new law (well -1999) enacted in Sweden, which treats prostitution as a crime AGAINST women, meaning they consider it a crime of violence against women and prosecute those who pay for sex, but not the prostitutes, who are considered victims. They get help, counseling, and whatever support they need to “get out”. (Not surprisingly this law was introduced by a female legislator, who said that when she first suggested it her male colleagues thought it was the most absurd thing they’d ever heard, some literally “roared with laughter”). Since then, similar law was adopted by Norway and Iceland. I personally think it is rather groundbreaking and revolutionary – a totally fresh way at looking at a very very old problem. Could something like that happen here (in the US)? How could we make it happen, given that every branch of government here is dominated by men for whom, sadly, it doesn’t seem to resonate strongly enough to make it one of their priorities? (It is also important to note that in 1999, when the law was passed, almost 50% of the Swedish Parliament was composed of women).
Here is a link: http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html
More info can be found just by googling “prostitution Sweden”.
Any comments, ideas, insights, suggestions …. ?
Hi xcheck,
Well, I was hoping for a more complex discussion as well, and I appreciate the link and the suggestion. It's very rare that customers who frequent prostitutes are criminalized, but they should be. What happened in the city where I grew up was, every so often they'd publish a list of men's names and there would be a big public outcry against it, and so that wouldn't happen for five or six or seven years, and then it would happen again. Rinse, repeat.
I don't think vice departments are even real half the time. It's just a half-hearted BS front that makes it look like some attempt at law enforcement is taking place, but no one ever really believes it.
I'd be interested in hearing from other people. Let's see if anyone shows up. Thanks again. :)
Hmmmmm.... silence ...
I guess we'll just have to "debate" each other for a while and see if someone cares to join us with some constructive input. That would be great, wouldn't it? - Something's telling me that you didn't write this particular essay just to showcase your writing skills.
And I don't believe that "oh that's terrible but what can we do about it" (implying - no, I am just one little person, I can't possibly do anything about a big problem like this). Nonsense.
I have done a bit of research and found some really valuable information, although I am just starting out (with my rerearch I mean). Are you familiar with the work of Melissa Farley? She's a reaserch and clinical psychologist who has obviously worked extensively with and on behalf of prostituted women for many years. She is currentle the director Of Prostitution Research and Education in SF(my area). Their website (www.prostitutionreasearch.com) has a sh*tload of information - articles, links, activism, a really good FAQ section etc etc (EXAMPLE;{ Q. But people need sex and some have no other way to get it than from prostitutes.
A. No one ‘needs’ sex like they need food, water and air, and no one has the right to purchase access to another person’s reproductive organs in order to masturbate themselves.Sex is fun, and it feels good, and it is widely available to anyone who treats others respectably with kindness and asks. Buying prostitutes is less about sexual gratification than power gratification, because in an exchange of equal partners there is always the risk of disagreement and the need for compromise. 85% of American johns have regular female sexual partners and 60% are married men.}
I'd say to those who say "but what can we do about it" you can find a similar organization in you area and contribute - either as a volunteer or by making a donation (or both). And if you can't, they (PRE) accept donations either online or by mail
This from their website:
(What you can do: Support the work of PRE by sending tax deductible donations to Prostitution Research and Education, P.O. Box 16254, San Francisco CA 94116-0254 USA. Or make a Paypal donation now.
Hope to hear from you again, Pam - maybe we gan get a discussion going here???
Hi xcheck,
Thank you for the information about Melissa Farley and PRE. I will definitely check out here work, their site, and send a donation. Maybe after I read through it all I'll do another hub with a link and a donation request. That would not be hard to do and maybe it could raise awareness.
I really appreciate your practical suggestions here. Upon reflection I think I could improve this with a part 2 that is more focused on solutions. It's been awhile since I spent any time on women's issues. I taught briefly in Women's Studies in the 90s. I wouldn't say it went well. I took a lot of abuse, learned that everything is very political--even things that seem like they should be obvious and straightforward--and I do think I gave up a little on women's issues, including this one.
For some women life is better, or at least affords more choices, than it did a generation ago, but for others, not so much. I can help to get that message out there. In the meantime, I hope some other people show up. Thanks again.
pgrundy: {"Upon reflection I think I could improve this with a part 2 that is more focused on solutions."}
Pam, that's a great idea!! Let me know if I can help.
I can't do much writing right now, but I just wanted to mention that I am with you regarding your earlier comment about ineffective law enforcement. But - here's the glitch - there isn't even a sensible law, so how can there be sensible law enforcement?
Criminalizing (as we understand it here in the US) could be callled a joke if it wasn't so tragic. It basically victimizes the women again, by turning them into criminals. As you said, the johns rarely get punished (Was Elliot Spitzer ever charged with any crime?). Legalization (and regulation by state) - to me that's a pretty umpalatable option as it essentialy makes a pimp out of the state. ( I used to be in favor of legalization as sort of a "lesser evil" but I changed my position on that one). So, as far as I can see, the so called "Swedish model" seems to be the most humane, compassionate and honest way of dealing with the problem. Hmmm... where else that the Scandinavian countries - pretty much the most advanced model of society currently in existence. Not perfect, I'm sure, but positively enlightened compared to the US.
Take good care, let's talk again soon.
thank you so much for this hub, i can't resist a hub that fully discusses an important topic, has clearly defined terms and leaves the with something to think about. you clearly asked ,with these set assumtions and definitions, how can we live our lives peacefully knowing this is happening. i aim to write something this monumental myself
Thanks hienergybrain--I want to write another but I've gotten bogged down in other work. The second one will be more focused on solutions. Thanks for your comments and good luck at hub pages!
I have never heard so much crap in my life. Prostitutes are people with parents who do not go the religious ways. Prostituting is a means for cash, especially, when benefits are not enough as they establish themselves.
No family home goes entirely the religious way.
Gays are fine, etc... This is not because women like this article choose to be submissive to men which also is not religious, by having them as victims or wrongdoers because they are not in the home with the male having sex with just him. It stays a mans world when you women make it.
Women are more mistreated in the family home while prostitutes as entertainers get the best side of them and are treated better, or they are given the boot because prostitutes are down to earth real people, humble, streetwise, and unlike the average woman, take no shit. They are less likely to suffer abuse because they will give it right back. They are your modern women.
What's a lawyer then obeying law and not humanity? What is a perfect profession, you narrow minded people. What's a Doctor all parent rights, now all child rights so no truth is documented. Lawyers and Doctors must have been abused because one with a good childhood is more eager to please God. They are also people who have not chosen the religious way entirely. They say they don't like law, yet do it. They blame it on law, not them. They are ego'd. Prostitutes are not. Blame your guys for seeing one. Blame a lack of community funding for people. And blame yourself for letting your man back in your home.
nd what is abuse? The authoritive speech of nurses and lawyers is abusive. The system is abusive. Yes, we have all been abused, and probably all been abusers, so why only do the prostitutes get it?
No qualifications, no study, no fees, no taxes, no quipment costs, an enjoyable activity, sitting around most the time doing nothing and chatting so lunch breaks all the time, with a large wage. A married women selects a financial suitor. A married man likes to get it free and trot up the road with a women receiving nothing. Who's the one benefiting and not really working? But its a means that is temporary. And that's because of government legislation. Yet gays are fine? Male dominance in charge is fine? Prostitution is between 2 consenting adults. She or he should not be singled out as mistreated at work, or that she
or he was a victim of anything.
What are you doing? Money is not free. Ruining a prostitutes trade yet supporting psychics and believing in ghosts and go with their trade, and believe you are psychic? Get into the real world. Adults can do as they please, look into your ghost and psychic world first where you all want your money, all a load of crap.
I came late to this hub, pgrundy, but you already know what I think on this issue. I wasn't going to comment at all until I saw these last two comments. Love the comment adults can do as they please. My dear whoever you are, I worked with the young girls who survived the terrible trade of child-sex slave marketing. The average age these girls were caught up in it was eleven. Eleven! And they did not -- "as entertainers get the best of men." You rant on religion but seem to think that the serial rape of eleven year old girls is just fine. Strange!
Thanks Immartin. Good to see you. :)
Great hub
jayb23 says:
6 months ago
Excellent Hub. I liked the way you have discussed this sensitive topic in such a mature manner. Good work