The Rise And Fall Of The Roman Empire vs. United States Are We Parallel
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Roman Empire vs. United States Similiarites
What are the similarities and differences between the rise and fall of Rome Empire in 365 A.D. and the United States in the 21st Century? First let’s ask ourselves, are Americans the new Romans? There are many who are struck by the similarities between the American empire now and the Roman Empire then. Military strength is the most obvious similarity, as Rome was the Superpower of its time, and the United States is the Superpower now. The Romans had the best training, biggest Budget, and finest equipment that the world had ever seen in their time. The United States is just as dominant- its Military budget is larger than nine other countries put together, allowing the United States to deploy their units almost anywhere across the World in a matter of minutes. Add the United States technological lead, and the United States emerges as a serious superpower without any rivals.
However, there is a significant difference as the United States did not form any type of formal colonies and the Romans always did, and furthermore until this date there has not been any evidence that the United States has deployed any ruling consuls in other sovereign lands. Notably, America and Rome have had its share of colonizing and conquering evidenced by their very histories as written throughout the centuries. Paul Kennedy, author of The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, stated, “this [US] was an imperial Nation, a conquering nation” . Based on history the Romans understood that the world needed to practice imperialism, namely the art of winning wars and invading territories; they also practiced and learned the political tricks that sustained their ability to stay in power of their territories during their reigning period.
As should be evident, the United States is more Roman then we realize, as the Romans bequeathed a format on how imperial business should be handled, and today the Americans in the United States are implementing the same tactics without fail, all the while not realizing the Roman “roots” of these tactics. For example, during the Roman Empire the Romans had great military strength; and the rest of the World undoubtedly knew their strength and consequently feared the Roman as well. Secondly, the Romans were known for their infrastructure, including their Roads (or Via) as well as their engineering feats with bridges and aqua ducts, built primarily to enable their military to move more quickly. How innovative for their time. Today those highways find their counterpart in the Internet, or better known as the information Superhighway. The Internet began as a military tool, and arguably is one of the most superior inventions of our time, bringing whole nations together in mere nanoseconds.
The United States appears to have taken these tips from their Roman counterparts. Rome realized that if they were to last as a World power, the Romans had to excel at both the art of winning wars as well as the winning the cultural battle often times found in political circles, considering that the Roman empire spanned continents as well as vast cultural divides. Rome’s greatest conquest was the seduction of its’ peoples. They would provide them with baths, and central heating as the people never realized that they were enslaved by such wonderful things. Today the United States offers Starbucks, my personal favorite, Wal-Mart for 24/7 shopping convenience, and Disneyland for entertainment, just to name a few.
The Roman and American models of government and capitalism are based on the principles of progress through utilization of it’s work force with the lure of the good life as an individual’s goal. If the process works, why use direct force? It is possible to rule by having others do the work for you, something similar to using a television remote control. You just simply choose the stations and watch how things play out. If you don’t care for that particular program you just change it until you successfully locate what you are looking for, which in many ways has contributed to this throw away society that is the United States. This is not at all dissimilar to how the Romans viewed many of their conquered subjects.
The United States does this technique with ease. Our foreign policy dictates homogenous thinking and implementation of American ideals with little thought to the political and economic differences in conquered societies. One need only look at the fiasco that is Iraq, and comment on the complete lack of foresight as to the necessary elements to unite a nation divided by numerous warring factions.
Interestingly, the fall of the Roman Empire occurred primarily due to a lack of foresight as well. Incorrectly, the Romans assumed that cultural, economic and social differences could be bridged by simply implementing the “Roman” way. Similarly, The United States with the Iraq war has learned that the “American” way does not always work. Simply put, there is an innate desire in humans to do things their own way, meaning that if one does not pay attention to the social and cultural fiber and essence of a people, ultimately any attempt to create a government or society that does not address these important aspects of society, that attempt will meet failure.
The foreign policy that the United States employs with China is similarly misguided. China is a socialist and communist country that is slowly turning its back on its soul and embracing it nemesis, capitalism. From the standpoint of the United States, the complete lack of morals when it comes to human rights violations, only intensifies the demise of implementing “American ways” in a country that is so dissimilar and does not even value our basic inalienable rights.
These examples only bolster the argument that the United States is embarking on a similar path as the Romans did at the end of their empire. Ultimately, the delicate political dance that is being played all over the World with the United States forcing it “way of life” on vastly dissimilar cultures will result in its ultimate demise.
Very similar to the Americanization of today’s world with McDonalds and Starbucks popping up in the most unlikely remote countries of the world, the Romans also put down “roots” all over their occupied territories and left their cultural and architectural footprint on the world. One need only to think about Carcassonne in the South of France as well as the magnificent Roman Villa built at Fishbourne in Sussex in Southern England by a Roman Ruler, a so-called “dedicated client King,” Togidubnus who ruled in southern England in the first century A.D. Although the palace burnt down in 270 A.D., the Roman Villa with its exquisite mosaic floors and colonnaded fronts was carefully excavated by Barry Cuncliffe in 1960 and now serves as a museum and an indefinite reminder of Roman wealth and prestige.
Lastly there are some vast differences between Rome and the United States. The United States was founded on rebellion against another empire, the British Empire, in the name of freedom and self government. Romans embraced their status as masters of the known world; however, few Americans would claim bragging rights on their own imperialism. Most of us would run for cover and hide in denial of American imperialism. The obvious paradox of a nation living in democracy with the ideals life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness stands in stark contrast to how the rest of the world views the United States as a nation forcing its way of life as a master on the rest of the world. As Americans, although we fear the parallel with the Roman Empire with its rise and fall, we are oblivious that we are indeed following the same path of destiny.
In conclusion, I have witnessed America’s might and I do not believe in the inevitable death and destruction that accompanies war justifies our greed. Instead of making peace and becoming a stronger nation, by our foreign policy militaristic actions, we are weakening the very fabric of our society. I also worry that like the Romans, we will fall if we continue with a simplistic foreign policy of Americanization of the World.
The one thing that could be done to permit the survival of democracy and those we cherish is to simply utilize our freedom of expression and freedom of speech to get the point across to our government. Also, before September 11, 2001, the United Nations with support from governments from around the world stood on the precipice of a great journey; they were about to call to session the first international parliament that would have powers and jurisdiction that far exceeded the United Nations and the International Court of Justice in the Hague. Unfortunately, the events of 9-11 threw the World into turmoil and this path towards world peace was not realized. I believe that the World and all peoples have the right to life, liberty and happiness, and that as citizens of the world we are obligated to protect these ideals.
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Birte: I value your thoughts and comments as well as the critique I see there is definitely room for improvement, I am certain that I will adjust the article. I am happy however that it is thought provoking and opens up the subject. I know I should not have been so harsh but it is merely my thoughts on the matter and no disrespect is intended. :)
Just only one or two points if I may. Military power is not possible to compare. Roman army attacked other countries to expand. We never took other county to control it. As I know they usually asked for help. America always helped. It was not in the case of Romans. Korean asked and they are really bad North Koreans. In Iraq war, what about the Kurds and attacking others by Saddam? Saddam had WMD. Vietnamese asked for help because of China communists. WWII because of Hitler. This is completely different in this point. Romans also crucified Jesus we did not. :-). But there are many other similarities. Declining USA is due to the nation abandoned God, then abortions and favor of splitting God's land - Israel. This is just academic comment. :-)
Vladimir: Those are great points and I appreciate academic comment. It is only my point of view but I certainly do enjoy reading othes points of view as well it provides all of us with much needed knowledge. :)
A nineteenth century lesson that the U.S has learned well and put into practice with unprecedented success is that you do not need to occupy & colonize a country in order to control its economy. If you want to see where this lesson came from one need only look to the former colonies of the British Empire spread over Africa, Asia, and what was then called the West Indies. Though the Empire no longer exists signs of its influence can be seen throughout, left like the scars of a western rash (sorry to all of you soccer, cricket & polo fans). Had Brittan been able to learn from their own example their Empire might have survived World War Two. Instead what you had was a tiny minority of white & wealthy Aristocrats ruling over vast domains of dark-skinned Natives and exploiting the resources of the regions from fortified villas & gated country clubs that were the epitome of luxury (not unlike the Romans). Of course this sort of thing breeds resentment but for America and our modern technology these so-called third world countries right from the comfort of an office downtown. This too breeds resentment but without any local examples of Americas Imperialism to attack these poor people will just kill each other, and obviously that is perfectly all right with not only our leaders but much of our thoroughly jaded public as well.
TY: That is a very thorough and clear explanation of what your perception you as well have some great valid points. :)
Well AE, our Senate was formed after the Romans as well as all the architecture of the many 'temples' in DC. Of course it also reflects the Greeks as well who the Romans also copied in ways. their downfall was due to corruption and the fact that there were no more lands they could conquer which is how they sustained their Empire. They were a bloodthirsty lot, are we? Good hub dear.
I agree with you. Aside from the first Gulf War, Bosnia, and especially Mogadishu, I don't think that the U.S. should involve themselves in international policies. I understand that only Congress can declare war, but the President of the U.S. can station as many troops (a bend not break loophole) anywhere in the world at his leisure. As the Gulf of Tonkin incident that ignited the Vietnam War, the U.S. certainly pushed its will against the Viet Cong, as I and many others believed that we instigated the war between the two countries.
Years ago, while in college, I learned that the Peace Corps, while helping third-world countries throughout the world, they did so preaching Christianity as well (I'm sorry, J) and forcing these desperate, sick, starving people to change their culture so to embrace American culture or their "saviors."
The very same freedoms that we dutifully enjoy here should doubly be enjoyed by those the U.S. helps, as the best way to help anyone is to NOT EXPECT anything in return: We should sow without a thought about reaping our harvest. Sow for the sake of sowing.
Thanks, AEvans.
Ralwus: Yes our government was formed after the Romans but are we not similiar? I don't believe we are bloodthirsty persay but I do believe we are oil thirsty. :)
dohn121: Thank you for agreeing with some of my points and I also agreed with your last statement, "We should sow without a thought about reaping our harvest. Sow for the sake of sowing. "
Nero fiddled while Rome burnt; Obama plays golf.
We are the ancestral genealogy of the past; we are the heirs of conquest; we are the elite and the slave offspring of the our forefathers' loins. There is nothing new under the sun ~ when will we heed the words of the prophets...
AEvans your treatise is very well focused on the obviousness of humanity's plight.
vrajavala: Oh My!! Thank you so much for commenting I am speechless. :)
Ioua: Thank you I ask myself the same thing when will we heed the warning? Many of us are in denial but appears that we are running parallel and we need to take a look before it is to late. :)
I think that the legacy of the Roman Empire is far too big in most fields such as language, culture, gastronomy, architecture, religion, politics and so on compared to the small legacy that North America can leave on the world.
I enjoyed reading this, very interesting to see things from the other side.
Rome fell for two reasons: Corruption within their political parties--rampant homosexuality, hedonism, and even bestiality, and their refusal to fight from horseback (calvary). They also extended their reign too far, which, in economic terms, means they exceeded their economy of scale.
You are correct, Iraq is a fiasco. When you fight and die and conquer, you keep; you're not supposed to give it back. Iraq should now be the 51st state of America, along with all its natural resources. Give them a governor, break the state in to districts, with an elected mayor for each, and hold elections every two years. And as for any resistance--send in the 82nd Airborne, the resistance would be short lived.
Yea, there are similarities between yesterdays Rome and todays America; especially now, especially with all the rampant corruption in both the White House, and Congress.
Dean77
Well, Mrs. Evans I think that you did a fantastic job putting this together. Your points are valid and your views on the comparison are notable. Thank you for sharing this as it brings to light some interesting facts. I personally enjoy learning of the Roman Empire as well as Roman culture. If we are like the Roman Empire then I should say we have at least four or five hundred years left as a nation, which is good for us. Great job and glad to see you're doing the hub challenge.
Hey vrajavala, Obama plays golf because, other than being a lawyer and politician, that's all he knows to do. He's never ran anything (other than his mouth), never been in charge of anything, never managed anything, doesn't know the first thing about business or economics or fighting wars--so yea, it's no wonder he plays golf. Actually, now that I think about it, we might all be better off if he did spend the next three years playing golf. It couldn't hurt his approval ratings none.
Oh, by the way--Good Hub, AEvans!
Pretty intense and dense, thanks. I wonder where ego fits regarding the rise and fall of nations?
I do not think we are oil thirsty. We need energy and it is way of life. There is plenty of oil but we do not want it. Oil for us is as green plants needing carbon dioxide. :-).
Brilliant hub aevans. You have been v articulate in your comparison and I dare say its one of your better hubs that I have read. Keep up the good work
Princessa: I enjoyed writing it and thank you for commenting on it. :)
Dean: Thank you for agreeing I see the similiarites from based on my perception and I also realize other views are coming down the pipe which is also going to be interesting I love history and facts and I can bet we are going to learn even more based on each other comments.
Wesley: I would say appr. another 400-500 years myself well let's hope. Yes I am doing the hub challenge the first challenge I backed out of I had to much going on and even now I have a things still happening but for some reason I have now challenged myself to it and I am certain I can do it, thank you for the support. :)
Storytellersrus: Are you stating that my perception is ridiculous or that the subject is quite compact? The ego between the rise and fall of nations could be an interesting discussion. mmmmmm...:)
Vladimir: You are so thoughtful.:)
jayb23: Thank you and I can be quite articulate when I want to be I guess all of us can be lazy soemtimes, shame on us. lololo Thank you for stopping. :)
This was great. Thanks
tdarby: Thank you. :)
Greetings :) Many of your commentators claim that US differs from Rome in not being expansionist. But that doesn't really make sense. Rome was a city state that expanded by military aggression into neighbouring then more remote territories. Something very similar happened in North America - military expansionism and colonisation, subjugation or elimination of the native peoples. All this was part and parcel of the formation of the US. It's true that its borders have been stable for a long time, but let's not pretend it just sprung into existence in otherwise virgin land.
Paraglider: Hi, There are parallel's which is my perception and I live in the U.S. but there are others who percieve it differently which is understandable, All of the viewpoints are thought provoking and will be used in Part II. which seems to be a very interesting discussion. :)
Interesting parallels.
kephrira: It is thought provoking. :)
There are some Interesting parallels no doubt . Let,s not forget that a Roman Governor signed off on killing Christ .Also we may not be colonized around the world like the UK did but we do have many military bases around the world . You might find abook called "The sorrows of Empire " by Chalmers Johnson an Interesting read he talks alot about this . Good read AE !
tony: I will have to check that book out, I find the topic very interesting and I did forget until you reminded me that a Roman empire did sign-off , oh my goodness something to duly note. :)
I enjoyed your hub and just wanted to add a few thoughts.
I'm interested in the parallels of the US and the British Empire at its peak. There is a huge need for self delusion to justify rearranging the whole planet to serve ones economic interests- and wrecking so many lives in the process.
The delusion is needed right through the culture from top to bottom. Politicians need to believe they are serving noble ends. Ordinary citizens need to feel that the values of their country are superior to everyone else's and that other values deserve to be ex-sponged.
Mostly, at the level of popular culture, what you find in both the US now and the UK in the nineteenth century is a mix of flag waving, sentimentality and easy, often parroted phrases- like freedom, the white man's burden, bringing civilization, spreading democracy, the rule of law etc etc.
Without these pyschological defense mechanisms the carnage would be unbearable. An unsentimental look at the history of the twentieth century is guaranteed to leave anyone depressed.
The Romans too felt they were spreading civilization and republican values- even as they torched Carthage and turned Greece into a vassal state.
The only thing I can say in the US's favour is that it less bad than its rivals. No one would want China or Russia to wield the power the US does now.
If Russia was the world dominating super power even I would feel obliged to shoot a few of them. Could I start shooting Americans? Not really. I just wish the ones I meet were a little more self aware. Who knows what might be achieved with all that power.
Get That Flag: Your comment is thorough and poses many questions, I certainly hope that others can provide a clear and concise answer for you. I wrote with the intention of receiving how people percieved the U.S. to be and my perception and I have certainly recieved so wonderful responses. I appreciate your comment on this subject. :)
I think that the downfall of the U.S. that is coming will be due to economic failure coupled with poor understanding of other cultures and ways of life.
Trying to impose our "way of life" onto others who may not wish to embrace it by borrowing the money from countries not well disposed to our way of thinking in order to keep financing our goals is a sure fire path towards failure.
Just how many trillions of dollars can we keep borrowing and spending before this "house of cards" falls?
Thought provoking peice. But from what other civilizations could one draw comparisons? Not having given that notion any thought I would say off the top of my head ...many.
Human nature is what it is. Could you find the same dynamics played out in a family, a city, or a company? Wherever a group of humans exist I believe the dynamics are pretty standard and fall into the same patterns of behavior. However, I believe this is where a particularly creative and keen human can cast light on the negative and alter the destructiveness or...on the other hand if that person is evil can manipulate the situation to whatever ends he desires.
PeggyW: That is a very good question? The endless ribbon of green cannot last forever, anyone care to answer this question? :)
landthatilove: I agree with you with patterns of behavior and manipulation can happen look at the past, I also value your thoughts in this matter. :)
AEvans. Thank you for your work. I think we can never gain enough perspective on this. The more perspective we gain the better chance we have to deal with our societal problems or to be able to tap into what is positive.
You are truly an expansive thinker.
AEvans ..your last sentence in your article...quote
". I believe that the World and all peoples have the right to life, liberty and happiness, and that as citizens of the world we are obligated to protect these ideals." puts in a nutshell who we want to be to the rest of the world. I think that is in the heart of most citizens and soldiers. However we sometimes are misrepresented in the worse ways which can distort our reputation and intentions worldwide.
landthatilove: You are so welcome!! I had taken the time to read, break it down and determine my own perception. I am certainly glad that you found it to be informative and clearly understood what I had written. Thank you again for your lovely comment. :)
If Obama is all mouth, Bush was a quitter, boring and just happy to 'play' president. You have just made an interesting statement by comparing US to Rome. I think you are being too careful about it, but a little reading would help you solidify your observations. It would also be interesting to hear what all those people who witnessed the military wrath of the US have to say about this 200+ years civilization. Your point that we are headed for the same fate as Rome, it seems like we are already slipping and sliding into Darkness. A civilization whose people live in a state of denial, is what happened to Rome. A lot of us still believe in the delusions of grandeur and think that this will not happen here. It is happening! My neighborhood is now filled with empty and abandoned house. Most people I know are not working any more, have no health care, their unemployment is about to end, some are homeless, and there are a lot of sick Americans, both psychologically and physically. We are seeing the emergence of China as an Imperial Leech and there are other so 'called' developing countries that have a more better and stable economy than ours. I suppose we really do not want to look into the national mirror and see how far we have gone down. Falling and rotting bridges, failing schools, military incursions that do not make sense. The fall of Rome did not come in one day, it was gradual and finally the vandals, the Goths, the Visigoths and the Barbarians just gave it a nudge. Interesting article.
ixwa: Hi, It is only my observation and if I came off to harshly then there were not be a debate. We are heading in that direction it is coming sooner then we think. Our neighborhood to has scene the loss of owners and there homes
people without healthcare ah yes we are definitely falling and rather quickly I must say.:)
Even though your post Ixwa is digressive from the topic of the original post. I want to comment on "mouthy" presidents. What could have been more mouthy and inflaming than Bush's "Axis of Evil" speech?
I can remember sitting there stunned at what he was saying which in essence he was throwing down the gauntlet. That speech was a precursor as to what was to develop and the writing was on the wall that very day. By contrast Obama steps in and offers a hand of peace to the world. It is amazing and wonderful to see the difference and feel like we are saved from our so called evident demise at least for a little while.
Bush was the epitome of imperialist! A destructive one
landthatilove: I am certain ixwa will respond and as for Bush I agree 100% :)
Nice thoughts Julianna. Add to the mix British, Osman, and Russian empires, and you get the whole picture. :)
Yet I am very pessimistic about survival of democracy, and tend to see this as a good thing. Out of available forms of government democracy is probably the worst. :)
You should delve into the history of the Founders. Many of them were classically educated and had an appreciation for Roman stability, if not all of the institutions of Rome. The Romans even had a New Deal of sorts, much like the later United States: http://mises.org/Books/newdealoldrome.pdf
One thing you seem to miss about Rome is that their culture was more urban than anything else. Once the cities began to lose their influence due to plague, war, crashing economy, etc. the people in the rural areas kept their traditions much more than you would have realized if you only looked at the cities of Rome.
Likewise the US today is not really exporting culture. It's not that McDonald's is spreading like some sort of American religion analog, McDonald's is spreading because they make food fast and cheap. That's the benefit of civilization, life becomes less of a struggle and we can turn our skills to civilized pursuits. Consider the fact that it tool more than 1600 years for the standard of living to climb back to that enjoyed by the Roman people.
Misha: Thank you and I am so glad that you commented. :)
ledefenstech: Interesting thoughts and I certainly appreciate your thoughts and comments you have added another thought to my list. :)
One thing about history is that it teaches us about the past, so that we can understand the present and thus be better prepared to build a more cohesive future. We read history to better understand past civilization and how that particular civilization treat its most vulnerable citizenry. Your article is good, and I have nothing against it. I was merely brushing on some themes I picked from it and the responses from some 'tweedle-dees and tweedle-dums. How a civilized society deals with its people, like the United States did, distributing books to all corners of the land, is more important than when it begins to churn out, in its decline, an ignorant mass. That concerns me. The advent of the internet has given us a whiff of this saga. A lot of us have time to whistle in the dark about very serious, pertinent and woefully dire issues. Whave had wars as far back as the British up to now. This does not bode well for a budding civilization. There have been all types of leaders in history, but the societies in which the King, Caesar or Chief role can be weighed against the subjects they lorded over, teaches us what not to do. The fall of Rome had to do, as you know, with the different types of leaders and their efforts or non efforts towards doing the public good War, corruption and decadence brought Rome down. Is it any different now? How many corrupt and decadent Senators have we so far found out? How many wars have we fought to uphold the Military industrial Complex? What happened to our social mores and morals? These shenanigans indulged into by our budding civilization have been ignored. We are also weakening ourself image by calling our President a Hitler, Socialist and not born in the USA and so forth. One of the achilles heel for the USA is Racism. There was a time when race was not the fulcrum of ancient civilization as we have made it to be in our country. If we show the world that we are prepared to take guns against our sitting President in Town Meetings, hold Placards that call him names and complain about everything he does and 'hope' he fails? How then can your article not be true, which, of course, it is.. When we were loosing our Privacy, went to an illegal war, Spied on ourselves, posted some draconian laws hope to call ourselves a civilized and Imperial society that cares about democracy(small 'd') and yet we do not respect the outcome and result of voting and our democratic process , yet, hope to maintain a civilized status? We keep on denying our wrongs, when Obama goes to the Nations of the world to improve our standing and stature, we here are working very hard to show the world how much we distrust, do not care for him and not want him? This is part of the mixture for destruction I pointed out in my response above. By the way, you did not come out harsh, I merely wanted to point out the fact that is more that can be added about our country, but chose not to. As for Bush, @ Landthatilove was succinct: "Bush was the epitome of Imperialist! A destructive one". Nuff said...
Romes demize came do to the corruption and moral decay. We'll be there soon enough. Good Hub.
ixwa: I hope you did not get the wrong impression I clearly understand where you are coming from and I may write a second part later on in the week, your opinion as well counts that is why we live in such a wonderful Country, if only the government would hear its people. :(
sneakorocksolid: Thank you and yes we are on our way.:)
ixwa, well said. It is despicable how these maniacs are showing up with guns at Presidential forums and there is no outcry against them from the Right. In fact the Right feeds the fires with the likes of Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. I am embarrassed that the world sees this happening. I think race is at the bottom of this hatred of our President, most won't admit it but you hear not so cleverly disguised comments all the time and it is easy to read between the lines. I fear deeply for his safety. If something happens to him that will be the beginning of the end to life as we know it. Everyone will have a target on their back.
The formation USA is different from that of Rome, which was formed on a hill and expanded by military conquests. There were only Kings, Emperors, etc in Rome, while there are only Presidents in USA. Roman empire sustained for more than a millennium while USA has been pushed into ditches within 250 years. The enormous wealth is not inherited by their hard labour. Instead, they took it away from native Indians. The unjust economic order which equates the US dollar with other currencies by a huge unacceptable ratio makes it look like "more than nine countries combined." The USA has appointed Gen.McArthur as Governor to rule over Japan in 1945, which lasted for 4 years.
You're welcome, history often isn't what we think it is. Most times we believe what I've come to call the Mythology of a topic rather than the History of a topic. George Washington cutting down a cherry tree being an example of the former and his loss as Fort Necessity being an example of the latter.
That's one of the things that drew me to the study of history early in life, the difference between what really was and what we are told. It's true what they say about victors writing history, but over long periods of time truth wins out over propaganda. "I am Ozymandias, King of Kings/look upon my works, ye mighty and tremble". In recent times Ozymandias has become notorious for chiseling off the names of previous Egyptian Pharaohs and inserting his own. While still a great Pharaoh, he's not as great as he wanted posterity to believe him to be.
Venu: There is more to the U.S. then taking away the Indians land, they are paid monthly and have hospitals for the leasing of the land, not all of the land belonged to the Indians. Arizona, Texas etc. were a part of Mexico. Alaska is a part of Russia etc. A part of America's wealth is from hard work and hard labor, the other part is from greed. Japan was ruthless in WWII read the history and was appointed at the asking of Japan to make certain that there Country was safe. What is interesting is that when we do not help other Countries yell about how bad we are, but we are the First Country to go and protect the people of there own land. Why do we do that? Yes we are falling due to our government but it is not we the people who have created it. Your opinion is valued can you also adlib more so that we have a better understanding of what you are saying. :)
ledefensetech: Interesting I would love to read more about the Egyptian Pharaohs what book would you recommend for good reading? :)
The quote is actually from Shelley. I learned about it in Victorian Studies. Ozymandias was the Greek name for Ramses II. Or Ramses the Not-So-Great as I like to call him. The nice thing about studying ancient Egypt is that it all happened so long ago that all of the partisans of one side or the other are long since dust. That's why I said victors write the history but the truth comes out sooner or later. In the Book of Kings, for example, you can see a slant towards David and the book being written as a bit of an apologia for some of his excesses. Let's fact it, David abused his power and earned the enmity of some of his people. But he rescued them from Saul, which earned hims the gratitude of the populace. It's all very interesting when you learn to read not only what was put down, but what was not written down.
At any rate, I'm not sure about good histories of Egypt, I'd suggest reading biographies of certain pharaohs like Ramses II first, then look at other sources to get a general picture of the flow of history, the Time-Life books on the ancient world is a good place to start. Once you have that, I'd start reading books on their literature, folklore and religious beliefs. By then you should at the very least be able to think like an Egyptian which will help you understand them immeasurably better.
ledefensetech: Thank you for the information and I will certainly begin with Ramses II and begin to read , I would love to write a hub on that. :)
Quite a debate going on here. I agree that the U.S. resembles Rome before the fall in many ways, chiefly our moral decadence. During the Roman Republic they had strong families and a strong work ethic. After they reached a certain level of wealth, a lot of their folks quit working—both wealthy and poor. The poor were being fed by the Empire whether they worked or not and the well-off figured they had other people to work for them. An idle mind is the Devil's workshop. People get bored. The result, the bloody entertainments in the Colosseum and wild orgies all over the place. Sloth, drunkenness, sin. The Wages of Sin are Death.
We differ from Rome in that they were out to conquer the world. We are not. We through the Marshall Plan rebuilt our enemies into greater countries than they were before—unprecedented in history.
Some of your commenters are funny. The enormous wealth in the United States today didn't come from Indians—and I'm 1/4 Indian. The Indians had yet to discover the wheel.
They can knock the British Empire all they want out of ignorant envy, but the fact is every colony the Brits had they left a better place. Look at the US, Canada, Australia, India—anywhere you look they modernized a primitive world and former British colonies outperform their neighbors around the globe.
You wrote a fine piece with lots of good truth in it. And you started a smart discussion—always nice to see. Thanks.
James: It certainly is a debate and I have to say it has been an exciting journey in the last few days to see other view points it stimulates one's mind and really makes everyone think. Thank you for the nice comment. :)
I didn't relize that there were so many paraelles between teh uNited States and the Roman Emprire, great job keep going!
James, have you ever looked at the tax burden of the Romans and correlated it to their decline? In not, you might want to take a look. It's very illuminating. Also you might consider how and why Canada, the US, Australia etc. were so much better off than say Africa when the Empire broke up. The differences will give you a good idea why those former colonial areas turned out so differently.
The letters in ROME can be rearranged to spell MORE or OR ME.
I'm sure there are things that go on in this country that are hidden from the general public,auch as slavery of children ,and women
Those in high places have many things to hide I'm sure.
There is no better slave than one who thinks he's free
At least the Romans were honest about slavery,in fact they even required slaves to wear arm bans so they could easily be identified.because they feared them.
The people of the unitedstates are kept busy so as not to complain too much about how things are being done in their name.We are like mushrooms ,we grow in the dark and feed off of decomposed scraps we are given by those who have enslaved us under the guise of security.
Freedom is security now and questioning authority is unpatriotic.
UP is DOWN and RIGHT is WRONG.
Rebecca E: There certainly are many parallels but writing about to many may place fear into some but I am certainly enjoying the comments and debate there is an abundance that all of us can learn from each person. :)
someonewhoknows: Now that certainly is an interesting factor and I have never taken the time to look at the word Rome in that way. You are right Up is Down and Right is Wrong I enjoy your thoughts on this matter. :)
Interesting comparison...and very interesting timing concerning what you wrote in your last paragraph. I think any great nation...like all great things-companies-leaders-etc. Must seek to improve themselves from within constantly (which may not be easy). Or they start to deteriorate from within. History has shown that great nations come and go. Will America ever go the way of the "do-do" bird...such as the Roman Empire? I think we are in the middle of answering that question...like never before. Curious thought comes to the forefront...have our politicians (specifically: our nation's leaders)....and I'm not pointing fingers....become complacent to the point that they could make many of the same mistakes...as that of Roman Empire? History does repeat itself...as the saying goes. Maybe...that same "imploding" climate could be re-created once again? Not that we are an Empire...again, like you've stated...but then could any type of analogy be drawn between us? Yes...You've just demonstrated that we have many things in common with them. So...Let's hope that we do not also share the same fate...as them!? Great Hub, AE...and great points. Makes me want to research on these discussion points...much more!
manlypoetryman: It is an interesting topic and it can really run quite deep I certainly hope that we do not go down that dark hallway but there are so many simililarities that have definitely made me question our own direction. Thank you so much for your thoughts as well they are truly appreciated. :)
ledefensetech—Those were vastly different peoples—I am sure you know that. The British Colonies in Africa, Rhodesia, South Africa, Kenya have all far out performed their own neighbors.
James, do they still do so? It's not that they're vastly different peoples, everyone is after all human. The difference is that the British who colonized the New World, Asia, and Australia were all influenced by Enlightenment philosophies. By the time Africa was colonized, that sort of thinking had fallen by the wayside. It was replaced by "white man's burden", which is just another way of expropriating the property of somebody else.
If you really study the differences in culture between Africa and other Anglo colonies, one of the first things that immediately strikes you is the tribal nature of African society. It's critical to understand this if you want to understand why the nations built after World War II are chronic basket cases.
You mentioned Rhodesia. Look at what happened after the various tribes got in control of everything. They did not have a culture of respecting property rights, they saw government as a way of expropriating peoples property for their own personal gain. That's why Bertie she went from being one of the top economies in Africa to one of the bottom economy's.
You see this sort of thing anywhere there is not any sort of protection of property rights, it's not just Africa. Latin America is another case in point where lack of property rights has taken once vibrant economies like Nicaragua, for example, and run them into the ground.
I hope you can understand this because there is a great deal of confusion concerning colonialism, racism, economics and how it all fits together. That's why asked about the tax burden, because the lightness or heaviness of the tax burden often points to what a society believes concerning property. A society that does not respect property rights, soon goes the way of the Roman Empire, or any other empire the world has ever seen.
In order to have economic growth, people have to be productive. What's the point of being productive, is what ever you produce can and will be appropriated by the authorities? That is the current weakness we are seeing in the United States, that was the weakness the Romans labored under in the closing centuries of their empire.
Yes this is definitely a topic of debate....... However, if everybody thought the same way, then there would not have been improvement in this world. If nobody questioned anything, nothing would have improved.
Yes you are driving against the current....
Genius: Isn't it nice that we can all think differently? Questioning is a great tool that we are able to have, I appreciate you commenting. :)
America has given its power to Europe ages ago.Europe is the Super power of the world, just not as noisy as America. Besides all the Big stuff it is becoming a suckling, as all others, sucking off banks and having the rug pulled, every now and then by Europe.
Europe uses America to achieve its NWO as we hear so often.
HOOWANTSTONO: Interesting! more valued information I don't know if Europe is the Super power of the World but I am becaming to believe it is Asia because we owe them so much but I definitely have been reading up on the subject, thank you for your thoughts. :)
When people speak of the 'Roman Empire,' they oftentimes forget that the 'Roman Republic' existed 500 years before the Roman Empire did; and the 'Byzantine Empire' (this is how we know it as today, but in it day it was known as "The Empire of The Romans.") existed 1000 years after the fall of the so called Roman Empire! So in actuality: the 'Roman Empire' (figuratively) lasted close to 2000 years! I seriously doubt the USA will last this long!
John Sarkis: I agree I believe we are on the road to self destruction and it is coming quickly, if we do not do something to change it. :)
Rise and fall is natural .Nobody rise forever .
Kyon: That is true.:)
yes you see, 336bc-330ad is the western image, he who has a strong forehead, shall know the beast
malcolm: That is interesting please tell us more. :)
=666 from alexander to constantine, out of the renaissance, ascended the 8th beast (king) who is of the 7 and is going to perdition, the world shall marvel at the beast that was, and is not, and yet is, "he" is revealed now, as is the harlot. he who can see, be strong. ezekiel 3:8
malcolm777: Thank you for sharing that passage and there are other passages on Rev. I truly appreciate your insight and thoughts and I hope that you can continue to share your insight with others. :)
I have a friend who wrote an esoteric paper in the UK in a university. This paper was "The Race Change in Ancient Italy". The imported slaves simply BECAME Rome by virtue of their procreated numbers. The ancient Romans were disappearing even in the time of Augustus. This always happens to great empires. The original Americans are being replaced by peoples from around the world. If they become "Americans" then we will have succeeded where others in the past have not. If they simply vote for more at the trough, as democracies tend to do, then we will slowly collapse into third world type characteristics, even though we might have a military; the world will descend into an era in which there is not an American power. For those of you who think that is good --- just wait.
Christofers Flow: I believe it will eventually and the same people who are complaining sometimes are the same ones who are not paying any attention to what is going on around them. :)
Actually Rome cheapened the value of it's citizenship by offering it to federates who would fight for Rome. By doing that, Roman Citizenship became worthless, nothing like what it meant during the time of the Republic or the early days of the Empire. You give something worth by making people work towards it, you cannot just give someone something and expect it to mean anything.
ledefensetech: Oh my goodness what you say is definitely true and I believe that the U.S. and Rome are running parallel in some many ways. However our government is giving promises but not to much as been given to its people. :)
Great historical analysis, but I will disagree with you slightly. I hope this new administration will be different from the previous. I have a good feeling we wont try and impose our ways on to people as the Romans did.
melbrown1: I hope not and it certainly is o.k. to disagree that is what makes it such a wonderful country. :)
Unfortunately we're cheapening our currency just like the Romans did. http://mises.org/story/3663
ledefensetech: Good grief and go figure! :(
Well the good news is that this sort of thing can't go on forever, but unfortunately bad things happen when the system falls apart.
interesting comparisons u bring up would also like u to weigh the differences so that u see which carry the more weight
Where humans are involved there will always be a hierarchy, a power struggle, the have's and the have-not's. In between exists the spaces where forward thinking monkeys yearn for utopia, strive for it, attain it for a time, and then ruin it again due to hierarchy and power struggle. Rinse and repeat. Now you have the human experience.
Guess I'm a little dark today, eh?! -Trig
Great hub.
ledefenstech: That is so true.:)
asalah: I will certainly do that. :)
Totalreviewguy: It is o.k. to be dark all if us do it on occasion. :)
sukhera143: Thanks :)
We must become the change we want to see in the world.
Mohandas Gandhi
Thank you for your post! Please keep writing! Peace must come first!
Kely Engaldo: Gandhi was was absolutely correct! I agree Peace must come first. :)
great hub you have here theres alot of similarities and alout of differences as well as for the first comment i must say how he said something along the lines of blood spilling for entertainment... that is where our movies kinda take the place of those they call gladiators are our movies so much different...maybe just without the real life stuff... and another thing the media to me exposes alot of the cruel stuff that goes on in the country which then ppl do copycat ideas for example school shootings after you seen the first 1 on the news many started to show up all over the news every week...i love this country i just see alot of improvements we need to make i dont mean ban action movies or anything like that im not huge on politics either but i just know something, anything to better the country needs to be done...for those who disagree you either may not understand where im coming from but you also may and just not see it as in the way i beleive and im fine with that and i respect whatever way people wanna look at things
DMBucs: I believe we have plenty of room for improvememnts myself and I also agree something needs to be done there are so many things that everyday people like you and I say that they should do, but I believe the WHITE HOUSE is still turning a def ear and not listening.
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BirteEdwards says:
3 months ago
Interesting hub. You are tackling a very large subject in a few paragraphs. I think you may be too harsh on the USA in your comparison between Rome and the USA. There are many differences that you do not touch upon, such as the economic bases, Romans total lack of understanding of other peoples.
Your comparison on entertainment is also somewhat faulty. Rome became debauched, the theater was vulgar, the amphitheaters were entertainment based on the spilling of blood, the baths were not just baths but much more.
with this said, your hub is thought provoking and opens up a great subject for discussion