The Suboxone Ceiling Effect - Why Some People Need Methadone
87Detox...
Suboxone (buprenorphine) is a pretty great new drug, and for a lot of people, it's just a far preferable alternative to methadone and especially to naltrexone. When suboxone works well, withdrawal pains are largely avoided, and the eventual detox off of Suboxone is considered far less painful than for methadone.
Clients not seeking to taper off opiates at all are also well served by Suboxone, and it can work just like methadone as a drug for years of pain free opioid maintenance.
But Suboxone is not for everyone. Some people, especially people coming off of heavy use of short acting pain pills such as Oxycontin or hydrocodone, or heavy use of illicit opiates such as heroin – may find that even high doses of Suboxone do not offer them the replacement effects they need. For some people, even maximum doses won't keep withdrawal pains away – and that is because of the ceiling effect of the drug.
The Ceiling Effect
To understand why suboxone will work well for some people and not for others, it is helpful to understand the terms opiate agonist, opiate antagonist and partial opiate agonist.
All opiates work their magic in the brain by binding to neural receptors called opioid receptors. These receptors can be thought of as key holes, and drugs such as heroin (or any opiates) can be thought of as keys. When heroin floods the brain – these "keys" enter the receptors "the keyholes" and turn them on. Once these receptors are activated – all of the effects of the opiate are unleashed – and the user will feel euphoria, analgesia, etc. Basically, turning the key gets you high.
Opiate Agonists
Drugs that activate these opiate receptors are called "Opiate Agonists". Opiate Agonists are straight forward keys for the keyholes.
Examples of opiate agonists include:
- Heroin
- Methadone
- Vicodin
- Percacet
- Morphine
- Codeine
Opiate Antagonists
Opiate antagonists are sort of like broken keys for those opioid receptors in the brain. They fit in the opioid receptors but they do not turn them on – And significantly, while they sit in the receptor keyhole slots, other opioids cannot get in these keyholes to turn them on.
Opiate Antagonists include drugs such as Naloxone or Naltrexone, and they are used to help people overcome opiate addictions. When a person takes Naltrexone, for example, even if she were to take heroin afterwards, she would not get high. All of her opioid receptors would be filled with the opiate antagonist drug.
Partial Opiate Agonists
Suboxone belongs to a third class of drugs, called the partial agonists.
These partial agonists are "keys" very much like the agonists, and they do fit in the receptors and turn them on. They are called partial agonists, however, as they can only turn these receptors on partially.
Suboxone for example, will fit the opiate receptor key holes and will turn these on a little bit, producing some typical opiate effects and sensations. It is only a partial agonist though, as it has a fairly low ceiling – that is, at a certain point, taking more of the drug will not increase the effects felt. It can only turn the keys a small amount and once you fill all the key-holes, taking more of the drug won’t increase the effects.
Why is the Ceiling Effect Important?
The ceiling effect of Suboxone increases the safety of the medication but limits who will be able to use it.
The ceiling effect is good in some ways. It makes Suboxone less likely abused and far less easy to O.D. on – and because of this, Suboxone can usually be taken home, saving the client from regular or even daily trips to the methadone clinic.
The ceiling effect of Suboxone holds true for all effects – that is, after a certain point, taking more of the medication won’t increase any of the effects of the drug. Taking a higher dosage of Suboxone won't result in much intoxication, but it also won’t cause much risk of respiratory depression and possible overdose death.
After the Suboxone ceiling of effect has been reached – taking more Suboxone has no effect – it won't make you higher, and it also won't keep slowing your breathing like heroin or other opiates would.
But The Ceiling Limits its Use
Because of the ceiling effect, people with heavy opiate habits may not get enough out of Suboxone to keep withdrawal pains away.
Suboxone has "High Affinity" for opiate receptors. If you were, for example, to take high doses of heroin and Suboxone at the same time – the Suboxone would fill the opiate receptor "keyholes" and the heroin would have nowhere to go, and thus could not get you high. Suboxone has a higher affinity for the opiate receptors than other opiates do, and will win the fight to fill those key holes.
People with trying to overcome heavy drug habits may need more opiate receptor activation than Suboxone can give them – they may need a drug that can turn those opiate keyholes a little further just to keep the feelings of withdrawal away.
Unfortunately, if a person that wasn't getting enough relief from Suboxone tried to take another opiate at the same time – to get rid of their withdrawal pains, the Suboxone would be filling all of the opiate receptor "key-holes" and any additional opiates would have no effect.
For example:
If you had a heavy heroin habit and took some Suboxone – and still found that you were feeling withdrawal pains – taking more heroin at that point to chase those pains away would not work. The heroin would have no place in the brain to activate – all the keyholes would be filled with Suboxone.
Some People Will Probably Need Methadone
Most people prefer Suboxone to Methadone, but some people will not find the relief they need from suboxone, and will have to at least start off on Methadone.
Methadone has no ceiling effect. If you take more methadone you get a proportionally greater affect in the body. People that need more symptoms relief can take a slightly higher dose of methadone and find what they need.
In general, anyone needing more than 40mg of methadone daily will not find Suboxone effective.
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Comments
Hi Debra,
Suboxone and alcohol are not really a great combination. Both are CNS depressants, and although Suboxone is pretty safe on its own, it gets a lot riskier to take it combined with certain other drugs, most notably drugs like benzodiazipines (there have been overdose deaths from this combination) but also with alcohol. In a nutshell - alcohol increases the risks of respiratory depression.
Here is a link to the Suboxone manufacturer's website for safety information on drug interactions and otherr matters:
Hey....I don't really believe that suboxone's ceiling effect has ANYTHING to do with suboxone NOT working on heavy opiate users. The state in which I live in has now mandated that any NEW suboxone patients CANNOT be prescribed more than 2 8mg. tablets a day. The only exception to that rule is people switching from methadone to suboxone. That is because methadone is an opiate (with NO blocker I must add) and one of the strongest ones too, that people are taking EVERYDAY for maintence. Because they have been taking that same amount religiously for a while, doctors don't know what the effect of dropping them so drastically to suboxone. Another thing about suboxone and the program is that most doctors require you to either go to rehab or a detox center.....so the ceiling effect of suboxone does not effect the treatment program.
Of course some people would get more relief from methadone. All it is is a government controlled form of heroin! It is a pain killer. And if you wanted you could go do a bag of heroin and have no side effects from it. 90% of the time you wouldn't get kicked out of the clinic either. Suboxone is the best program out there in MY opinion because of the blocker and the rules.
To be honest SUBOXONE only has this limited effect on people because it's only a partial opioid agonist (Buprenorphine) and the full antagonist it has in it is Neloxone which is used almost ONLY for opioid overdose and the argument about it not working on heavy users is somewhat psycological in the fact that such users are used to and acustomed to expecting the full opioid effects that the full agonists give them but find that when they use a mixed agonist/antagonist they go into a withdrawl of varying degrees depending on the person so are dissapointed understandably.The issue of using benzodiazepines with SUBOXONE is a valid one because there is a risk of respiratory deppression when the two are mixed. I have overdosed many times in this way and it is most often only given in combination when in a hospital setting such as detox clinics where they have resuccitation equipment. When switching from a full agonist (especially long acting ones like methadone) to a partial agonist/antagonist there is obviously a changeover period that must be taken into concideration from the time of the last dose of the first med to the first dose of the second med and this time period is based on the duration of action of the two drugs ie methadone has a long duration of effect (upto 48 hours) depending on the dose so the most reliable way to gauge when to initiate the second drug is to wait until the first symptoms of withdrawl kick in. This way you can be as sure as possible that as low an amount as possible of the first drug is still in the blood stream however you may still experience some opioid withdrawl symptoms but they will be minimal. After this just proceed as planned with your detox and going too slow is better than going too fast so to avoid relapse.
So I got one for everyone? I take subutex the same as suboxone and my body reacts differently then 99% of those who are on it! The correct way to take your suboxone is 1x daily. You shouldn't have to take more than that, Well I take a dose in the morning, start feeling hot flashes and withdrawl symptoms around 6 hrs later and then by late evening I get the same withdrawl symptoms!! Beside that, it turned my life upside so I think? Ever since I got on to suboxone which has been 3 to 4 years I have been dealing with pain throughout my body, typical of fibromyalgia and im a male thats 26 yrs old and athletic and other physical issues! suboxone is great for most it's a miracle but be careful, always try your hardest to not have to go down that road!
I just switched back to suboxone after a relapse. Wanting to get clean again after a few months of heavy use, I didnt want to take the time to find a Dr. to get Sub. I started dosing methadone,over a few months I was up to 140 mgs. Long story short I wanted back on the sub. without tapering off I took a sub HOLY SHIT ill advised. I went into imediate horrible withdrwals, since I have felt like shit taking benzos and waiting for those days to come back when I would take a suboxone and feel great all day. I am worried guys that the methadone did something that the suboxone cant replace. I am going to try and fight not to get back on methadone, but the once "miracle drug" sub is not cutting it rite now. I know the decision process was al together stupid but here I stand just wanting my life back but like all adicts I guess I want it RITE NOW! just needed to vent
I have been a heavy opiod users for years. I started taking suboxone 3months ago and I cant say enough about how great I think this medication is. My life is finally managable now. I am worried that I may have to go off it due to the cost of the medication but for now I am not planning to detox, what this medicatiion has done for me is give me my life back and I am grateful for that
I have been a heavy opiod users for years. I started taking suboxone 3months ago and I cant say enough about how great I think this medication is. My life is finally managable now. I am worried that I may have to go off it due to the cost of the medication but for now I am not planning to detox, what this medicatiion has done for me is give me my life back and I am grateful for that
My son took something that looks like saboxone, but he was nodding and very hostile in the morning....any ideas on what that might be?
if your son doesnt have a heavy opiate habit then the suboxone could affect him in that way... my girlfriend, who isnt a drug user, took suboxone once last year and was extremely high. its tuesday the 17th and i just took my last dose of methadone... im about to start a 2 day withdrawal to switch to suboxone and i am scared to death of the pain. i tried to go off methadone abruptly about a year and a half ago and thought i was going to die it hurt so bad. stomach cramps, hot/cold sweats, runny nose, weak aching body... ahhhh jesus christ im gonna have to go thru it again this week....ive been at 30 miligrams for a month and my highest dose ever was 65. im 25 and ive been an opiate needle user since i was about 20 years old. ive been going to the methadone clinic for a little over 2 years and it honestly saved my life. i got myself enrolled in barber school and now i work full time making great money. i got back into politics and have been living with my girlfriend for about a year and a half. methadone allowed me to build my life and now i have too much to lose to go back to drugs. i dont have any magical advice on how to get clean, only to abandon the user lifestyle completely, cut off all your user friends and places you got high, get a support network, TRY TO STAY BUSY..boredom is one of the things that got me everytime... chew valerian root or some other natural sleep aid to help you get some rest.. i always relapsed because when i stopped using i couldnt sleep for days and days..take multivitamins, drink lots of water.... i am planning to get on suboxone and wean off in about 6 months. i know i can do it, im just dreading the 2 day withdrawal! good luck everyone -winston
Getting onto suboxone while opiates are in your system whether it be oxys, morphine, heroine, or methadone is going to cause you to withdrawel because of the naloxone in the subs. It is the same medicine they use on you when you go into the er for drug OD, it kicks all the opiates off your receptors so you start to withdrawel. The buprnorphine in the suboxone will then replace the once existing opiates on your receptors slowing easing you back out of withdrawels. My doctor is great about it. I had done 4 OC 80s the day before going in for sub treatment. First 8 mg I went into withdrawels. After taking two more 8 mg of sub within the next 24 hours I was back out of withdrawels and feeling great even had a short buzz. Just get through the first 24-48 hours of dosing. If you are still withdraweling after a dose of sub you need more. Speak up to your doctor and tell them you are in pain. I do not live in a state where they have a limit on the amount of sub you can take a day. Of course the maximum your body has room for is 32 mg (the ceiling which is referred to ) but where I live if that is what I need that is what I am allowed. If I take more than 32 mg I do not feel abit of a difference and it ends up being a waste. Oh yeah if you have to get through withdrawels from opiates before the next step try valium if you can get it prescribed of course. It always helps me to get to sleep so that I don't feel a thing. It doesn't cure it but it sure does help.
I beg to differ with the context of this article. I an a nurse treating the homeless and at risk for homelessness with Suboxone. Most of my patients were 1-3gram per day heroin users, or high dose Oxycontin users. Because we have an extensive medical/disease model that incorporates psychiatric and behavioral health approaches as well, we have very high retention rates, with very low doses. As a matter of fact, most patients don't start out with more than 8mg per day, and don't complaing about the withdrawal pain you speak of.
The difference seems to be motivation and a willingness to change. If people are committed and in an environment they feel secure in, the oppotunities for personal growth are endless. Taking strides in moderation is key.
I have had several post-methadone patients that were on well over 80mg per day switch to Suboxone. It is possible, and their lives are improved because of it.
It takes work to be in recovery, and present in the world in a healthy way. Where you want to go in your recovery all depends on what is your motivation.
I think going to suboxone is no different than Methadone other than it is easier to get and be on with no one knowing. If you can not kick the opiate through straight withdraw, know this: Make sure you are in danger of relapse or death before you go on Suboxone. They finaly come up with a "private" answer to addiction. This is after giving out opiates like candy for years. Isnt it strange that they happen to have this help that just recently any doctor can write out a script for subboxone or soon will be !! Just measure out your options. Tough it out. If you are on Heroin then Suboxone might be your answer. If you are taking pills, my friends then suck it up and deal with 5-7 days of withdraw or 2-4 weeks or more with subboxone. Good luck to everyone!
suboxone is awful! i just detoxed from it and it took me 2 weeks to recoop even though i was only taking a tiny piece, like 1 mg. My stomach was a hot mess and my legs were flopping all over the place. No sleep, sweats and extra crapping.....so gross! In my opinion, you are better off doing strait opiates and detoxing in 5 days. Afterall, we all know this cant go on for ever.....right?
I am currently on 110 mg of methodone. I can honestly say that it has been a life saver for me. I was a iv heroin user for 9 years and took opiates like oxy's morphine and diluadid for years. I smoked opium for the first time when i was 14 I am 32 now so I have had a love for opiates for many years. Today thanks to methodone I have my kids back in my life I have a great job and everything i want. I am going to switch from methodone to suboxone eventually but my doctor advises me to stay on methodone for at least another years or two which would be 3 years total. Anyways without the choices of these drugs available to addicts who have finally want help we would have nowhere to turn. Whatever route you choose stick with it your life can and will turn around
2 weeks ago I was prescribed Suboxon only 24 hous after my last dose of methadone. For 2 days I thought I was going to die and felt it was a better option than what I felt. On day 5 I was back to demanding work with no problem. Please regardless of what anyone including the Doctor says be in severe withdrawal before taking Suboxone. I was on 45 mg of methadone for 5+ years so I still have some mild withdrawal symptoms but am able to work okay. Methadone became my drug of choice once joining a clinic that made more of an effort to keep me on than any dealer I ever new. Determination and what I have been through are motivating factors. By the way I only used illegal opiates for 2 years following 13 years of sobriety from my old drug of choice alcohol. One operation and lack of support helped me justify taking opiates longer than needed.
15 days off Methadone still testing positive today, thought someone may need to know this.
hey Duck I have some questions for you about methadone withdrawl. can you call me at 443-477-2055. my name is doug
yes you can test positive for methadone for 3 weeks after stopping
I was doing about 500mg/day morphine for several years (plus many other opiates, including methadone), and finally hit a point where I knew I had to do something.
I knew also that I couldn't go on methadone becuase I love the stuff too much and would just keep on partying, and that's not good.
I've been on Suboxone, 16mg a day, for the last two months or so, and I've got to admit that this stuff really is a wonder drug. Personally I don't care if I take it forever, it's a huge improvement over the hell that I was in.
One thing I've come to realize is that this drug will only work correctly if you are honestly ready to move on and leave your habit behind. Most people that abuse drugs are self-medicating for some reason or another, and while Suboxone does give you a mild buzz (very mild), it doesn't allow you to push any of the issues aside you may need to deal that caused you to abuse in the first place. The drug is strange in that even with a high dose (if you were a heavy user), you're still essentially stone-cold sober, things just have a gentle glow about them.
The feeling is more like the way antidepressants are SUPPOSED to work, instead of the way they do, with all of the screwed up side-effects.
Some people need methadone because, to borrow a phrase from REM, some people just can't handle the weight of the world. Since I've been going to the clinic--which does methadone also--I've met people with some SERIOUS problems, far more serious than any "problem" I've ever thought I've had - we're talking lifelong physical and sexual abuse, abandonment, mental illness, all kinds of fun stuff.
The way I see it, if you've had a completely miserable existance from the second you popped out of your drug-addicted, prostitute mother, a shot of methadone is the least you can do for yourself. Some people can deal with that and move past it, but a lot of people can't... and I can't fault them for it.
been on suboxone for three months was into all sorts for 10 years but have job home no withdrawls it works for me .
I have been a user over ten years. began suboxone treatment about a year and a half ago. I thought it was great because there is so little supervision and I always had the pills to stop from getting sick. I get high for a week. Then Suboxone would "save" me from withdrawls.
Now I want to taper and stay clean. But I am finding the detox and withdrawl period is much longer than with just the junk. So I basically got what I deserve. Yea for me.
What will happen if you take suboxone 2 days in a row, 8 mg the first day then 16mg the next.. (this was for heavy withdrawls at the ER) then get sent home with some to last you until the suboxone clinic appointment but i have 3 10 mg methadone pills that i just took, this being 24 hours after the suboxone.. the suboxone was not helping me.. i dont konw if it just was not enough or what so i took the 30 mg of methadone.. what now??
you know what gets me, is how every single addict taking Sub says 'it gave me my life back'. REALLY? Trading one drug for another is taking control of your life? NOTHING can GIVE you your life back,,you have to WANT IT then FIGHT for it. but, most addicts are weak and cant deal with real life,,,thats why they are addicts. Suboxne wont make the reason you became an addict go away,,,all it does is make the pain stop. Pain, I might add, was brought on by getting high. No sympathy here. Lifes rough, wear a helmet.
how dare you speak to people like that. You are very callous and ignorant...your tired of the whining?....well then stay off the site!!!! I think that if most people knew ahead of time about the addiction or severe withdrawal effects, they would not opt to use them. Others have been placed on pain meds by doctors for medical purposes. If you have never experienced opiate withdrawal you certainly can't relate...but that certainly doesn't mean you have to be an - - -hole!!!!!!!
i am on 140 mgs of methadone. i went to a suboxone doc. and he told me to stop the methadone go into withdrawal and take 1-5 8mg suboxone as needed. does anyone know if that will even put a dent in my withdrawal symptoms,cause i know ideally i should be at 30mgs of meth before trying suboxone.but my clinic won't drop me down.help.please.god bless
I have made an appointment to go see a Doctor about Saboxone. I was wondering if someone could prepare me for what I am about to get into. I am a one and a half year opiate addict and I have recently decided I don't want this for my life anymore. I need to stop but I am so terrified of the withdrawls ive been through in the past. Can someone just maybe fill me in on how the sub. works and how it will physically make me feel. I'm so scared!!!
Amazing writing you ink. Inspiring me as a recovering drug addict and methadone prisoner your work is inspiring. I just released a mini movie from my pub dearaddict.ca posts tomorrow evening but I released the movie this afternoon. I would love your opinion if you have the time and also publish which ever related topic or new piece in my publication. If you like it and have someting already written like this piece especially, would you consider letting me publish it - your words need to be heard, no doubt. Here we go ahhh
http://www.dearaddict.ca/kim@dearaddict.com/Movie_
Thanks
Godspeed
Kimberly gray
www.dearaddict.ca It's easier to just go there and the movie is there
www.fade2gray@rogers.com
www.kim@dearaddict.ca
Great Article, been there, oh my god, I'd die before doing that again and getting of it almost killed me anyway! You know the gig. :-)
I know nothing at all really about opioid or opiates, All I know is I took 1/4th of a soboxone pill, Not ever being addicted to opiates, I could easily get sick off taking 3 percacets, and the soboxone I took Kept me sky high for almost 10 hours, off 1/4th a pill.. It was actually a lovely feeling, But not something id care to go through again, Very weird as Im reading other comments on how it is supposed to work and the way it affected me was just as if I had taken methadone except without horrible withdrawls.
I AM ON DISABILITY FOR SEVERAL PAINFUL CONDITIONS...OVER TEN YRS TIME MY PAIN CLIN DDRS HAD ME USING 80 MG OXYCONTINS 4 TIMES A DAY PLUS OXYCODONE 30 MGS FIVE TIMES A DAY PLUS THE DILAUDID 4 MG THREE TIMES A DAY ..I BECAME A SEVERE PRESCRRIPTION ADDICT TO THESES MEDS..I CAME CLOSE TO OVERDOSING MANY TIMES..I LOST MY KIDS MY LIFE..I CARED ABOUT NOTHING BUT MY PILLS..I MET A GREAT MAN LAST YR WHO HELPED ME THRU IT AND I REALLY WANTED A NORMAL LIFE AGAIN FOR US..SO I WENT ON THE SUBOXONE AND IN TWO MONTHS TIME I AM ON 32 MGS A DAY IM A TOTRALLY DIFF PERSAON..I HAVE THE PERSON I KNEW BWFORE ALL THE MEDS BACK...IM DOING GREAT AND IT HELPS MY CHRONIC PAIN ALSO IT BEEIN A NARCOTIC ANYHOW..ID RECCOMMEND IF UR SUFFERING AND LOST IN DRUG HELL LIKE I WAS PLEASE TERY SUBOXONE...YOU DESERVE TO DO IT FOR URSELF....PLEASE DONT GIVE UP..THIS MED CAN SAVE YOU.....
Im on 125mg of methadone im about to start a rapid decrease of 10mg a day is it safe to start suboxone the day after i get to 30mg of methadone
That is a difficult strategy. It can be done but it is hard to discern why any person would go through all that.
There are more humane options.
Get a second opinion!
Frankly, I find the article informative, and very well-written, save one major flaw: the central point is, to be blunt, bullsh**. I went on Suboxone straight from the streets, in the midst of a heroin habit that, when described, shocks most people including Addictions Counselors. I was doing, daily, between 3-5 bundles, just to maintain. Obviously, getting "high" was not even a real possibility anymore. I had to have at least 2 bundles just to get going/wake up, and even then I would still not feel great and be dopesick until I had closer to 3 or more bundles. I went to a hospital, who referred me to a detox/rehab where they put me on a dose of 3 8mg tabs/day. I really didn't think that would even begin to touch my withdrawals, but it did. I felt great after a day or tow on it. I understand the ceiling effect (and I'm pretty sure most addicts prescribed Suboxone do too; what addict wouldn't at least TRY to see how high you could get at first on a legal dose? :) but I don't think that is a factor as to whether or not Suboxone is appropriate for someone or not. I think it's crap....some people jsut aren't ready to quit, but are forced into SOME kind of "therapeutic" drug program (i.e. Methadone) due to financial reasons, spousal pressure, work, etc..) and find out: "wow, I can do this legally, satisfy my boss/wife/whatever and STILL get high!" The thing that is not mentioned about Methadone is the horrific long-term withdrawals. Methadone gets into your bone marrow, and if you ever thought about cutting your legs off when coming off heroin, you would be at the Hardware store looking for the instrument to actually do it. It's HELL. Suboxone WD's aren't a breeze either, due to it's long half-life (it stays in your system much much much longer than heroin or other common opiates), but I think those are far less greater than that of Methadone.
i have been a heavy opiate user for about 15 yrs. when i finally decided enuff is enuff i went to the methadone clinic and wuz on 105 migs a day for 4 yrs. after gettin down to 30 migs a day, i just sucked it up and stopped goin to the clinic. yes, it sucked, but i made it. but because i didnt fully understand what it ment to be an addict, i started useing again about 8 months later. i simpley thought i could take a couple pills and it would be ok. i thought i could handle it and not lose control. NOT THE CASE. so after 3 more yrs on the street, i went back to the clinic. MISTAKE! i really wish i would have given suboxone a chance, but becuzz it wuz a pill, i didnt. now after only 4 days of suboxone, i am amazed at how much better i feel! methadone is a trap. they start you low and take you up, then you gotta get back down and that can take yrs. suboxone is just the opposite,u star high and work your way down. think about, do some askin around, and give it a chance.
I was addicted to heroin for 5 years. I lost everything and was spending 900/1200 dollars/week on dope. I was doing 3 bundles/day. Finally, went to detox...once I started kicking, they gave me suboxone weaning me from 6/mg to 2/mg over 3 days. I got out and I still felt like shit. Found psych to prescribe suboxone and he put me on 8 mg. 3x/day. Finally I felt a little better. I have been on it for 7 months and haven't done a bag in all that time. Loved dope, hated the lifestyle. Suboxone gets rid of the cravings and lets me live a normal life. Some people in recovery think that this is a cop out and that you're not really "clean" if you're on it. I disagree. I'm not getting high off it, so its not like I'm using. Wasn't really getting high off dope anymore either, so this was a great trade off. Only problem is that when I've tried to wean myself off of it, I start craving dope again and it scares the sh*t out of me. So long as I take the pills, I'm good. Wish I didn't need them, but I do. So far as other peoples opinions are concerned... unless you've lived through the hell of heroin addiction and suffered the withdraw ... you're in no position to judge my behavior.
I am on 10 miligrams of Methodone and about to be on 5 miligrams the day after tomorrow. I don't feel that bad dropping 5 miligrams every 3 days(I was on 195 miligrams, dropped 5 a day until 30 miligrams) anyway, I have about 22 tabs of Sub. and I feel like taking some. Will I go into withdrawl if I take a 2 miligram tab if my last 10 mil. dose of methodone was 7 hours ago? Your input would be appreciated. The last time I tried to take sub I was on 40 mil. of methodone, waited 2 days, then took 7 tabs of 2 mil. suboxone and I wanted to die cause I went into horrible withdrawl. My plan is now to take just one or two 2 mil. suboxone tablets, but I feel like I will just do what I did before. The naltraxone will just make me go into withdrawl since methodone is all in my bones and won't leave for weeks, as per previous posts. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to input their experiences here, they all helped and I am better off for it. To be honest, I know that I am wanting to take the sub that is in my medicine cabinet because I think there is a slight chance that I can get high. I am such a loser. However, I bet you that I will end up taking the sub before I am in total withdrawl from the methodone which should be 5 days from now when I have my last 5 miligram dose. I should wait shouldn't I? Your commments please. Thank you and God bless everyone.
Ive been on sub for 6 days now started out at 8 then 12 then 16mg a day. Stayed at 16mg for past 3 days,i used to use 120mg of morphine and 4 to 5 perc 10 a day. 16 mg of sub a day is helping but i got a prescription for 14 8mg suboxone today and it cost me 96 dollars not counting had to pay the doc at the clinic 75 bucks just for the script. It;s way too expensive and i'm thinking about swithing to methadone when i go back next week. I took methadone 7 years ago and when i quit the withdrawls wre awful. The sub doesn't help my pain like the methadone does either. i have two compressed discs and a cracked vertabrae in my back but i cannot take my pain pills like i'm supposed to. i think methadone would be my best option.
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methadone works better than suboxone
I have been on suboxone for over 1 yr now.Can anyone tell me why a doctor has to go to a school for 1yr.?I also feel as if suboxone is a great drug, HOWEVER This drug is so strong (must be the narcan)Ever since I have been on this drug I have been high for this whole year, not just high but wasted..Worse than my 10-30mg.oxy habbit, at least in a few hours I would come down and be sober, NOT w/ this suboxone the high lasted all day and nite so I would call my doc. and he said this would go away,so after 2months of24mgs.I said no more, I weaned myself down to 16mgs.still it was too strong.Finally a year later after living highthis whole time I finally cutdown to 2mg.and I still am going through w/drawls and my doc.gets mad at me because he is so into this suboxone and no matter what I try and say about my concerns he even gets so mad and swears at me and will fight till the death over this dangerous orange pill.Like I said its agood drug for its use however I feel for long term use ,its no different than the drug I was addicted to before,only thing is suboxone is 10x's worse because insteadofit only takeing days to get off the oxys now its weeks I have to go through w/drawls.So reallywhy are we even put on these even more dangerous drugs that are even more addictive? Please can someone explain the logic behind this? Makes no sense unless the doctors are getting a big raise in money to give out these drugs?Why give your patient something worse for you? My doctor is going to cflip out when I tell him I am only takeing 2mg.?And even at the low mg. dose it still seems a bit strong I still geta buzz. Any one else get really high all day from this stuff? t 224mg.I was hallusinateing all the time, could not drive slept all day,did not even know my name.And yet this doctor insists I stay on this stuff all because I am what an addict? I am worse of an addict now than when I was did the oxys.So how does this help the addict Whos already is addicted? So yes suboxone I believe has its place,and can be useful I believe w/a goal and a time frame.My doctor never discussed any of the above he just prescribed me subs at large strength w/ no future goals or plans.From being on such large doeses for a long time I now am loseing my bottom teeth,can't yet drive,loss in sexual function,I feel wasted all the time to where even my eyes are half shut,energy level is gone,thinking ability is all foggy,sedation to the point of falling asleep at a drop of a hat w/lit cigarettes burning many things,fell down a flight of stairs 2x's,no abition to even do things that were once important to me all my life I have no longer any interest,mood changes just to name the negotives of long term use.The posotive effects have been things such as my migraine headaches have disappeared, back pain better,no craveings,been clean from day one of first dose and no substance abuse w/any medications.But, I feel the time is right to get off of this stuff and tried again on regular opiates at a low dose.I would like to hear your imputs on why doctors feel the need to use this drug and what makes this any different as far as addiction to any other opiates?
michelle: I don't know why doctors think this is such a wonder drug for 'everyone'. It was bad news for me. I don't know whether I was high or not but I was very sedated and definitely out of it. My behaviour was pretty awful. I had no sex drive, no emotions, all the usual opiate dependent crap.
I think I never got high because my physical dependence meant I didn't get high on any other opiate either but we're all different. And, when I say I didn't get high, I mean like the rushing high of my early opiate misuse days. I certainly did get a buzz from it but I just wouldn't describe it as 'high'.
I felt so emotionally numb on it. This made it intolerable to stay on. I was so depressed about it. My doctor was hopeless and refused to acknowledge what I said. I quit the doctor, first making sure I had enough to do some sort of taper.
Withdrawals were hell, as to be expected. No easier than any other opiate, just different. Six months later I'm still experiencing mental withdrawal symptoms albeit extremely mild (in comparison). They've almost completely gone, just not quite. It takes so long for the mind to find it's balance again post buprenorphine.
People post that they feel their old selves again on subs. It's a sad illusion I'm afraid. I've completely changed since coming off subs. I really am becoming my old self again and it is absolutely NOTHING like what I was on bupe.
Damn doctors touting this as a miracle drug. It's just an opiate. A long acting and very strong opiate.
I recommend people use this drug for nothing other than a quick 7 day or two week opiate withdrawal plan. I've heard this actually does work very well for some people.
Is it better to be on subs than mainlining heroin? Well, I wouldn't personally know, but in those circumstances I guess the obvious answer is yes because of all the extra related risks.
But, unless you really have no alternative, I would stay away from long term sub maintenance. Think real hard about it. The withdrawals have been absolute, unmitigated hell, for me. And that over a very very long time period of six months.
However, I certainly DO NOT judge anyone for being on this stuff to escape their previous addictions. Why would I? Afterall, I decided myself to go on the sub maintenance.
There is no new wonder drug for opiate dependency. There is just another alternative to methadone that the law is allowing to be prescribed to addicts.
Oh boy, I so wish that I'd just quit when I did a rapid detox taper using dihydrocodeine. I didn't even lose any sleep over that. Maybe any opiate used in a controlled taper detox over a short period would work just as well as bupe. Maybe everything positive written about bupe is just complete bollox and due to the fact that the pharmaceutical companies are hardly going to develop a new drug and then advertise it as "a completely pointless and shit drug, no better than any other pharmaceutical opiate, for the treatment of opiate addiction".
The only benefit to subs that I can see is that it is legal and pure. The same could be said for any opiate that is prescribed.
There's this fascist idea that addicts must not be prescribed their DOC, or something too similar, in maintenance. Well, subs soon become the DOC because of the limited legal alternatives.
I know I'm thinking outside the box here, and deliberately so. I'm just trying to be thought provoking. I'm definitely not saying I am right. These are just my opinions as they stand now from my experience with various opiates including the maintenance ones like methadone and bupe.
But, if an oxy addict was made to attend a clinic daily to get their sustained release 24hr oxy pill, wouldn't they receive the same benefit as if they had been prescribed methadone? Not only that but wouldn't the SLOW taper and eventual jump be less hideous than the protracted methadone and bupe one? Bear in mind I'm talking about a slow taper NOT a sudden withdrawal from oxy or whatever other opiate you might put in it's place. I only used oxy as an example.
Just a thought for the day...
God bless,
Phil.
check this site out awesome info about suboxone. www.suboxforum.com. A doctor started and runs the site.
P.S- If on methadone and are thinking about taking suboxone, Think twice. Make sure you are in the worst of withdrawal as you can tolerate before taking or else it will make you dope sick as hell and will take a good amount of time before it will start working. Other then that suboxone all the way. I was on methadone for two years. That it was a miracle for me until switched to suboxone. Didn't want to give it a try for years but finally did and what a good decision that was. The transition is a little rough but well worth it.
suboxone doctors make me laugh, especially the one on youtube who tells about his own opiate addiction and now is a suboxone prescriber. He was disbarred as an anaethetist following his opiate addiction. Well, fair enough, I ain't judging him, why would I? Afterall, I'm a fellow ex-dope fiend. But, what makes me laugh is that he touts subutex as a miracle wonderful thing despite the fact he never had to go down that route himself.
He talks of staying on suboxone as long as you need, long term maintenance. Meanwhile, he has no idea himself of what this is like. Of course, he had cash and paid for months and months of private rehab. Why didn't he just choose suboxone if it is so wonderful?
Yeh mate, like to see what you think after being on subs for a while. You wouldn't even be able to function as a doctor. You'd be wasted. You have absolutely no idea what it is you are signing your patients up for other than knowing that they can't afford prolonged private rehab. Well, you got to keep your money coming in haven't you? After all, you've been struck off from doing anything else...
- SAMHSA PDF on Buprenorphine
The SAMHSA 200 page guidelines booklet for the use and prescription of buprenorphine
Debra says:
15 months ago
What is the combonation suboxone has with alcohol? Just curious.