What Mormons Didn't Tell Me
69
The Story of Michelle Grim
Before I get started, I would like to begin with the King James Version of Galatians 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
We know that Joseph Smith saw an angelic vision (or Jesus, or Jesus and God) and this is the foundation of the Book of Mormon and the Morman church. I’ve read a few hubs and while I had no idea the writers were LDS (Mormon) because they didn’t write about these things (at least what I’ve read thus far), I first asked the question as to their belief in the deity of Christ. The three I conversed with do believe Jesus is God. We know that any spirit or prophet that confesses Jesus has come in the flesh is from God, right?
What I didn't know is that God the Father had several wives or goddesses, by which Jesus and Lucifer were conceived in heaven. Some do not believe Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
Well, based on Michelle Grim's testimony, it appears that that they have some “signs of a Christian cult” (see hub by Judah's Daughter called “True or False: Christianity”: http://hubpages.com/hub/TRUE-or-FALSE-Christianity ), I found Michelle's testimony because I decided to dig deeper to find out more about Mormonism and its comparison with evangelical Christianity, short of meeting with their missionaries to get a Book of Mormon to read and compare it to the Bible. I looked up “Ex-Mormon Testimony” online and found Michelle Grim, who was a sixth generation Mormon from Utah. She spent 30 years in Mormonism (birth to age 30). Interestingly enough, she was given a King James Bible when she was eight years old, the “age of accountability”. She read it!
She said during her impressionable years, she was taught that Jesus was married to at least two wives, that the Mormon Church would one day rule America, that Joseph Smith had been tarred and feathered just for being Mormon, and that someday she would become a goddess wife to a man who would call her name to be allowed into heaven, and that her sole purpose in life was to have babies.
She was taught that she had sinned in her pre-existence for not siding with Jesus in the war in heaven. She was taught that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. Now, considering born-again Christians know that Lucifer is an angel, how in the world could Lucifer and Jesus be brothers, if Jesus is God? Are there different “sects” of Mormonism??
I know I have a dear brother in the Lord that told me how Jehovah’s Witness prophecies continued to change over the years, and likewise, Michelle says God “changed His mind” several times as well in Mormonism:
She wrote, “In June of '78 the Church announced that the prophet Spencer W. Kimball had received a revelation from God. He said that black people were now acceptable to the Lord and allowed into the Church.” Wow, I had no idea Mormonism was ever racist?!
She goes on to say, “You see I had already been living with another change of mind of His. My great-grandfather’s children were still alive when I was growing up and attending all of our family reunions. My great-great grandfather was a polygamist. I literally have hundreds and hundreds of relatives. It was really no big thing for any multi-generational Mormon from Utah. All of us had the same testimony of the polygamous backgrounds.” Now, I don’t know if Mormonism still practices polygamy, but I can’t imagine so, since it’s illegal. I understand polygamy is in the Bible, so I can’t really hold this against them.
Michelle wrote about an experience she had when she was 16 in the Ogden, Utah Temple. She was being baptized for dead people and taking the Mormon oaths. She got violently ill, but the man performing the prayers and baptisms didn’t help her because he was in a trance-like state. I know there’s one scripture in the Bible that speaks of being baptized for the dead, but it does not mean it as it is being taught in Mormonism.
I couldn’t believe it when she said she wasn’t allowed to look at crosses as a Mormon?! She married a newly-converted Mormon gentleman who was in the military. They were not married in the Temple. When they conceived a daughter and were over-due, the child was still-born due to lack of oxygen. The Mormon Bishop told them they were going to hell because they hadn’t been married in the Temple.
I found it interesting that she met several “born again” Christians along her path. Do Mormons not call themselves “born again”?
She was so hungry for more of Jesus and the truth, she saw a woman talking to another woman on the street. The woman was wearing a cross necklace. Michelle walked up to her and said, “Hi my name is Michelle and I'm a Mormon”. She replied by saying “Hi, my name is Nancy and I will pray for you”. She ended up getting together with Nancy and said that “Nancy sure did know her Bible!”
They agreed they would go to Nancy’s church. When Michelle called Nancy to “bag”, as she says, Nancy prayed to bind Satan right there over the phone. Michelle had never witnessed anyone praying over the phone before! She went to the church and couldn’t believe Nancy was wearing pants, which she thought “abhorrent”. There were lots of people there laughing; children were running around, and all Michelle could think was, “I’ve never seen anything so irreverent in my life!”
But, as she walked toward the building, she looked up and there stood a little white cross at the top of the building. As she entered the front door she heard God’s voice saying, “Michelle, you’re finally home”. She fell to her knees an hour later crying as she’d never cried before and Jesus suddenly became real in her life that day.
She was shunned by her entire family in Utah. The loss of hundreds of relatives, she says, is no comparison to what she gained in having Jesus in her life and the lives of her family. Her husband got born-again two years after her experience and they are serving the Lord in the “Live After Ministries”. I’ve provided a link here to her story for those who may be seeking more; those seeking freedom: http://www.lifeafter.org/Michelle.asp
While I didn’t know for sure if I could, in right conscience, consider Mormonism a cult….well, the signs of a Christian cult are bolded in this hub. If the shoe fits….as Nancy told Michelle, “My name is Carrie Bradshaw and I will pray for you”. Oh my heart is so saddened. All I can do is cry for this world. I truly love the LDS people I've met, but I am incredibly burdened in my heart right now.
If you are an "ex-Mormon", please share your testimony here, or provide links to your hubs that tell your story. God bless you for stepping out to not only let young Mormons know more about what they're involved in, but also to shed some light upon those who may be considering joining the Mormon church.
Jesus Christ vs "Jesus Christ" (Not the SAME)
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The God Makers: A Shocking Expose of What the Mormon Church Really Believes
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List Price: $13.99 |
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Out of Mormonism: A Woman's True Story
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Comments
Carrie
I commend you on touching on this subject. I recently received a ebook it was a story of a woman who left the Mormon faith after she realized the deception. The address is www.outrageousmastery.com/ - 228k.
LPinky, I'm thinking there's got to be "sects" of Mormonism, or else people don't know the history of the Church, as this woman was involved 30+ years and I'm not sure how long she's been out. If things change, then people wouldn't know these things. I'm thankful you left more information for those who care to seek out more. This particular link doesn't work?
Eovery, do you have something from the Book of Mormon that would refute these claims? That would be helpful. Thank you :-)
And a bit from your own arguments, i.e. “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."
Joseph Smith, and the angels, and the visit of God The Father and Jesus Christ, the son, fits the criteria that you guys love to quote, because the claim that Jesus is the Christ, too. So your own argument and test works with this and it passes, so on the basis of your own test, you must accept this.
What a powerful story and Fantastic hub! I am truly saddened by all of the great people i know, who are Mormons. As Christians, we need to simply reach out and pray for them. God will work in their heart.
eovery, I had no idea you were LDS. I've just posted a video to show the different Jesus Mormans and Orthodox Christians have. They are NOT the same. This is so freaky and scary to see right before our eyes. God the Father never had a godess wife and conceived Jesus and Lucifer. Nor were we all conceived in heaven and so forth. These are teachings that are NOT the same Jesus as the Bible. I encourage you to hear the video of this young lad who loves so much and has taken the time to quote from your documents and the Bible to show the comparison of both who claim to be Jesus. Oh, how my heart is lifted to God in prayer ~~
internpete, I'm finding out that more and more Mormans don't know all this stuff. We truly have two different "Jesus"'s. Mormons don't believe Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Watch the video.
The spirit of antichrist claims to be Christ. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light and it is the same word "light" as when Jesus said, "I am the light of the world." Heylel (Lucifer) means "morning star" and Jesus is called the "morning star" in Revelation. Lucifer is an angel (fallen) and Jesus is God, not an angel. I pray the Holy Spirit move mightily in this hub, for we are witnessing this very thing right here.
Regarding Galatians, this is a very improper interpretation by mainstream Christianity. http://reasoningwiththecritics.wordpress.com/2009/
Also, this is my apologetics blog that I have alot of good useful information on.
Great post! It's too bad so many people are deceived through organized religions. When all they have to do is open the bible to find the truth. They will never find the truth by listening to man. Especially crazies like Joseph Smith!
Carrie, you uncovered some truths about the Mormon's that got someone's water boilling. I was a mormon myself but it didn't take long for me to see that the falshood in their teaching, thanks for such a great hub.
eovery, I am answering you with Biblical scripture in a hub. It will be posted shortly, as is already drafted. I appreciate you being here and your mannerly communication. I trust you will not see or feel rudeness coming from me. I really care about this issue and am here to show it.
Emily, considering Joseph Smith had no religious affiliation prior to his vision, except that he challenged a Methodist church's beliefs, thus sought the "truth" out in the woods. He was just a lad of 14 years old. There were no witnesses to his experience, and as far as is recorded, even the writings of Joseph Smith contradict his initial vision from that of a single angel, to angels, to Jesus and God...also, Joseph Smith only wrote 40% of the Mormon foundational teachings. His successors finished the work, all members of the Masons.
albert, I think it's pretty scary to be a part of a religion that follows the "Hotel California" lyric of "You can check in anytime you like, but you can never leave". JW's are the same way. Many world reigions are this way. If your family were Mormons, you probably had to sacrifice some very important relationships with your family when you got set free?
Jesus says in Luke 14:26 "If people come to Me and are not ready to abandon their fathers, mothers, wives, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as their own lives, they cannot be my disciples." Praise God more and more Mormons are looking to the Bible alone for their answers.
This is my last post. You can put 20 different religions it a room and you will get 20 different opinions on many of them. And all of them will believe they are right, as this hub truly presents.
I defended my religion with Bible scriptural references a valid as any, people want to believe or want to disagree, it is the spirit of our Heavenly Father that teaches and tells people of the truths.
Attacks on religions is not of God, no matter what and what websites.
I can produce testimony and articles like the one that this hub talked about, on most religions. Almost to the tee. What does this prove? besides not being with in the spirit of Christ.
I present as you can see on my religious hubs to educate, and the people can do what they want or feel inclined to do. I do not attack other religions, but I have been taught to build upon others understanding and give them more.
The Bible says to watch out for false prophets, but man as taken this to be "all prophets," pretty much as the Pharisites did to the coming of Christ. "All people confussing to be Christ were wrong in their logic." Or as in the day of Isiah, Jeremiah and the prophets of that day. Everyone believed Moses and Noah to be prophets, but they could not believe Isaiah, jeremiah, and the others to be living prophets. Therefore I make the same statement, not only watch out for the false prophets, put watch out for the true ones, and take heed to them.
I only commented in defence the untruths and falsities that this hub presented and were felt unappropriate.
Now that people have read this hub, I exhort everyone to get a second opinion and vist Mormon.org or LDS.ord and study the things there. Most times people follow and believe the first statements. I ask you to get a full account instead just reading things from site of a lady who apparently did not understand the LDS faith when she was in it and can't even tell the teachings when she writes about it.
The only hard feelings I have is that I feel this hub is unappropriate. But you have people have their freedom.
According to most religions, you jsut have to believe in Christ, which we do, and you will be saved. Well if we are saved because we believe in Christ, why is the LDS church always attacked for doing more yet. We meet these religions critiria. This is hipocritical in many ways.
And please stopping saying stuff about Mormons abondoning their family that are not Mormon. This is totally against The LDS church doctrine. If a person is not perfect and does this, it is the person fault, not the church. The church teaches differently. I can say the reverse thing. Many people have joined the LDS church and they family abondoned them. This must be a univeral religion thing. The doctrine is different, but if the "unperfect person" does this, do not blame it on the church in whole. I have several part member families that is completely different and in total loving relationships with the non-members portion of their family. Using this statement as a overall general statement is wrong.
Thank you and good day.
eovery, I'm glad to know that Mormon church does not turn its back on members who leave the church. That's wonderful.
I am posting a second hub now, which shows Biblical comparison to Mormon doctrine, per what you've stated thus far.
I care and that's why I'm taking the time to answer.
Thank you for your tenacity. I may have mentioned that my aunt Mary Lou was a Mormon and as far as I know died one as well. She loved me and my sister until the day she died. She did all she could to convert my sister Belinda, but God had other plans for her. She had to be punished once for confessing to her elder that she lusted and masturbated in private. She was banned from the temple and was very distraught over it. Such things were so foriegn to us because of Scripture. Then there was the geneological study she did to see if our family was present at Plymouth settlement in the very early days of American settlements. She would call every so often and tell of her progress. With each successive generation that she researched she got happier. I forget how many generations she went back but it just stopped one day. When she was asked she finally admitted that a white man (family name Smith) married a black woman (family name Smith). She could not tell anyone or she would not be allowed into the Temple again since the black half of the family pollutes the white half. (those darn curses, anyway) I know that the position has reversed itself as far as being able to be a Mormon but I'm not so sure that they can serve in the Temple. Don't know. All I know is that the Bible I read does not agree with this theology. I loved my aunt and always will but she is in the Lord's hands now and I know that wherever she is she would want these truths about Mormonism to be spoken for any who would care to read and believe.
no body, I know I don't even like to research cults because it is such UGLY blasphemy against our Lord! I'm literally sick over knowing this stuff. I will also be focusing on Seventh Day Adventists as well. Looks like they believe Jesus is Michael the Archangel, just the Jehovah's Witnesses you got out of! Does it ever end? How many cults are there out there that use the NAME OF JESUS and call themselves CHRISTIANS!?
2 Corinthians 4:6 "For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." Onward Carrie I commend your work. Be Blessed.
So you like to put out lies in the name of Jesus? Maybe you should do a little reaserch before you ask people who hate Mormons to describe the religion.
Onusonus, please provide scripture or tell me what are lies in here. I do not wish to misrepesent Mormonism. Based on what Michelle Grim said and what has been revealed in several online sources, I posted the best I could. I do believe there are Mormons who don't share the same beliefs, just as there are orthodox Christians who differ on certain things. So while you may not believe some of these things, some Mormons do.
Spiderpam, I know you've stated that walking in the Lord is not pretty when we have to do the work of our Lord, that is to shed light. This is tough, for sure. I appreciate your steadfast and brave spirit also. God bless us as we press on.
Yes you do wish to misrepresent Mormons, you have completely misrepresented us. And I already told you why.
This is the testimony of Michelle Grim; not me. So, being a sixth generation Mormon, her testimony is false?
Dear Carrie,
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Let me point out that all of your statements are incorrect about our faith and beliefs. Let me prove here and now that the Ressurrection is real USING the Bible and if you want to read the verses in full context go right ahead for I DO NOT use one verse out of context to prove my point, and I shall use the King James Version of the bible. Job 19:25 - 26 "...in my FLESH shall I see God." Also read 1 Corinthians 15, this chapter talks about the ressurrection. Read and see that Christ was and is ressurrected and that ALL of us will have bodies in the next life. And if you don't still believe the Bible learn Hebrew and Greek and read the Bible in those languages and you will see what the Truth really is. Now as to this ex-mormon woman and her statements. For President Kimball and the Priesthood it wasn't until that time the black's weren't allowed to have the preisthood; they could still JOIN the church!! And for the icing on the cake Joseph Smith gave the preisthood to several black people! We have never been and never will be racist!!! And for polagmy here are some facts that might intrest you; 1) in the 1800's women weren't allowed to own property (courtesy of the USA), 2) due to the persecutions of the saints many men were killed leaving the women alone and unable to provide for themselves, 3) the men took on extra wives to help the women live on and survive 4) and the real reason for God ordained polygamy "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." Jacob 2: 30 in the Book of Mormon. And here the issue of polygamy gets better there were three things that had to occur for a man to take on multiple wives 1) The Prophet had to ordain it, 2) the man had to provide for all wives ie homes for all(separtly) food for all and be a father to all the children (not an easy task. and 3) (which is the best) the first wife had to APPROVE the others. Meaning if she said no that no it was!! And I will not go into the other mistakes that you have written but next time you write an article make sure you RESEARCH otherwise you will write lies like you have written here. May you and your family be blessed.
Alright the first lie is this,
"What I didn't know is that God the Father had several wives or goddesses, by which Jesus and Lucifer were conceived in heaven. Some do not believe Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit."
This doctrine comes from "the Seer."
Many anti-Mormons make extensive use of this publication called in framing their accusations against the Church. Many members of the Church have not even heard of this publication, much less are familiar with its origins. The Seer was published in Washington, DC, by Orson Pratt, and he used the publication to provide a printed pulpit for his own ideas and pet speculations. It was never considered official LDS doctrine, nor was it ever published by or endorsed by the Church. Elder B.H. Roberts wrote the following in response to those in his day who were heralding the writings of The Seer as representative of official LDS doctrine:
The Seer, by formal action of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the Church was repudiated, and Elder Orson Pratt himself sanctioned the repudiation. There was a long article published in the Deseret News on the 23rd of August, 1865, over the signatures of the First Presidency and Twelve setting forth that this work--the Seer--together with some other writings of Elder Pratt, were inaccurate. In the course of that document, after praising, as well they might, the great bulk of the work of this noted apostle, they say:
"But the Seer, the Great First Cause, the article in the Millennial Star, of Oct. 15, and Nov. 1, 1850 contains doctrine which we cannot sanction and which we have felt to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works or harts of works are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed."
So are you gioing to take that lie out or leave it in? It's your choice, being the "Honest truth seeker" that you are.
The next lie comes from your good buddy Michelle.
"Jesus was married to at least two wives, that the Mormon Church would one day rule America"
I defy you to find a single statement from Church doctrine or any Latter day Prophet where anybody in the LDS church has said this. It is not in the Book of Mormon, The Bible, The Doctrine and Covenants, or the Pearl of Great Price. And it certainly has never been taught in any LDS sunday school, Gosple doctrines, class, or Priesthood meeting that I have ever attended in my thirty years as a Mormon.
Are you going to take this one out, or will you believe only what bitter descenters say?
Richard, Did I deny the resurrection of Jesus? I don't see that I denied that anywhere. I said our bodies will be raised incorruptible. Flesh and bone that is not corruptible. No blood. No flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of God, the Word says. So, at least our flesh has to be different, and bone that does not produce blood will also be different.
As far as polygamy, I know it was a practice in the days of Jesus, and I agree that this is why. I think it was noble that men took on wives to care for them, for many wives lost their husbands in war and so forth. We don't have the need to practice this anymore today, however.
As far as racism, it's too bad blacks weren't allowed in the priesthood way back when. Women today aren't allowed to preach in some denominations as well. It's oppressive, racist and sexist. I have a raw nerve with that one.
Lie #3 on Michelle's part
"She was taught that she had sinned in her pre-existence for not siding with Jesus in the war in heaven. She was taught that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers."
LDS believe that in the pre-existance all those who have gone to Earth to gain a mortal body sided with CHRIST, NOT SATAN. And you will never hear it in a Sacrament meeting that we beileve Jesus is Brothers with Satan. Anti Mormons use this more to sensationalize beliefs and polarize rather than lead to meaningful communication.
Are you going to Axe that one?
Onusonus, here's just an exerpt of the link given here for more documentation you are requesting.
"This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) when, in speaking of pre-existence and the origin of man, they said that 'man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father,' that man is the 'offspring of celestial parentage,' and that 'all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.'" (emphasis added) Mormon Doctrine, p. 516 by LDS Elder, and later LDS Apostle, Bruce R. McConkie.
"I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children." Journal of Discourses 2:210, Orson Hyde, March 18, 1855
If you guys say people are "lying", it's not people. It's the very documents Mormonism is founded upon. If they've "changed" over the years, does that not tell you something about the "prophet"? There should never be a "change" of foundational doctrine with a true prophet. My frustration is not with you. I'm frustrated at the abominable deception that is only confirmed when people dig. I hope you keep digging, and so will I. I love people and as someone who loves the Lord, I want to see us all find salvation before He comes again!
Here's the link I just found that covers this and more: http://www.mormondoctrine.net/articles/God_became_
I find it interesting the egos that are raging in these posts. The Mormons are so hell bent on defending their beliefs because they are identified with it, and it freaks them out that someone is challenging that. If anyone truly believes in what they do, it wouldn't make sense to argue about it. This kind of thing is what causes war and violence. What happened to love of fellow man? What happened to peace? Freedom of religion is another thing. Believe what you want, and let it be. STOP ARGUING ABOUT IT! It falls on deaf ears anyways. Everyone is different, and what works for one person does not work for another. I myself was a "convert" to the LDS church. I also am appalled at some of the things that went on there. I also feel that ANY organized church is just a plot to control the masses. I refuse to be a sheep that plummets off a cliff like a lemming. Nobody has the absolute truth, not even me! Do you honestly think that we would just be handed over all the truth in the world? Think of the damage that humans could cause with full truth. How many lessons would we learn? Honestly, it really frustrates me to watch the same battles going on over and over. Wake up people!
None of this was ever published as cannonized doctrine, It is never mentioned in the previously mentioned books by which we are given as scripture. Brigham young himself said if he does not approve the sermon for canonization then it can't be added as scripture. he never approved it, so we don't believe it.
Next lie,
"The Mormon Bishop told them they were going to hell because they hadn’t been married in the Temple."
Yet another falsism about our beliefs. We believe that Hell is for those who deny the Holy spirit, and deny the knowledge which they have received from Heaven. But even David was forgiven for similar actions. Mormon Bishops never go around telling people that they are going to Hell, it is completely out of their character.
That's good news. I'm glad to know Mormons can marry outside the temple and not fear going to hell.
We also believe that children who die before the age of accountability are saved by the blood of Christ despite never being baptized, and are wrapped into eternal glory in Heaven.
Quite Stormn, we have the truth in the Bible alone; we just don't have full understanding, as it says in 1 Cor 13:13 "we know in part". Because we only know in part, we are not to come up with anything that is blatantly not taught in what we do have. God can't hold us accountable for things not in the Bible, but He will hold us accountable for adding things to the Bible.
I happen to want to help people who are searching, and obviously you were and got out. However, it appears you have been thrown so badly that you aren't positive of your stand upon the Rock? Believe me, this was my screaming to the Lord, too! I can't believe what I see.
It's amazing there are so many different doctrines out there being taught, but the foundation belief of Who God IS and Who Jesus IS are absolutely found in the Bible.
The main concern I have for those who are deceived is that they don't know the God of the Bible, but rather a god based on some church or man-made explanation (that can't be backed up with the Bible).
Personally, I don't attend any church regularly, because I'm going to protect my ears. I've visited several and I don't want to follow the crowd. I feel safer just staying in the Word and have some close Christian friends that verify and study with me.
All I need in the Bible and prayer. Things are getting more and more wicked, as prophesied.
Amen.
Yes we believe that Hell is a lot harder to get to than just by making doctrinal errors.
Quiet Stormn,
You are right that it falls on deaf ears but she invited me here.
Onuonus, I believe that also. Children should be dedicated to God in the church, or at least by the believing parents. Until they can even understand who God is, they cannot be found guilty of rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ. This applies for handicapped, and people who never heard the gospel, for in John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." Amen.
this one kills me,
"There were lots of people there laughing; children were running around, and all Michelle could think was, “I’ve never seen anything so irreverent in my life!”
Are you aware of how many kids most of us LDS have? A sacrament meeting can be like a Zoo! I'm starting to doubt if she realy ever was a Mormon.
Onusonus, I have no idea what the Mormon Temple is like in Utah. That's where she attended, apparently. You seem pretty young, and I bet this was in the older church tradition. Do you expect women to wear dresses to church?
I dont Expect women to Wear dresses, but they usually do, and the men wear a shirt and tie. Still I've seen people wear all types of different clothing to the Sacrament meeting without anyone making mention of it at all. People are not as judgmental as one might think. In fact I know a girl who had a kid out of wedlock and was embarrased to show up, but all anyone ever said was that they were glad to see her again.
So how about cleaning this Hub up a little, and throwing a little more truth in it. If you want refute doctrinal differences feel free, But, come on now, try to seperate the facts from the fiction.
Onusonus, I am making sure all sides are shown. Michelle's, yours and others. I think it's a fair assessment of what some ex-Mormons are saying, and what current Mormons are saying. I can't change her testimony, as I'm using her story for this hub. It's publicly displayed on the internet for anyone to see; at least here, you can refute it and clarify things. Thanks so much for your contribution.
That woman has lied alot, and you are spreading it around. Hence you are spreading lies. Keep diging through antimormon propaganda, you will find plenty of hate. While you are at it, why don't you ask some good NAZI sources about "the truth" behind Judaeism.
Onusonus, Tell me something. Do you believe that Father God was a man at any time (not God in the flesh through Jesus, but in the beginning). Then, did Father God earn His way to becoming God? Do you believe He existed before the earth was created? Do you believe He created the earth and the heavens and all the heavenly hosts?
You believe Jesus Christ and Lucifer are His sons in heaven. Do you believe you were conceived in heaven first? Do you believe you will be a god one day? Let's focus on those questions I have now ~~
Why don't you take out the lies first? Then we can talk about anything you want.
Let me further state that your loaded questions
1.misunderstand or misread LDS doctrine or scripture;
2.give unofficial material the status of official belief;
3.assume that Mormons must have inerrantist ideas about scripture or prophets like conservative evangelical Protestants do;
4.apply a strict standard to LDS ideas, but use a double standard to avoid condemning the Bible or their own beliefs if the standard was applied fairly to both.
Every reader can read Michelle's experience and read every single comment you've written to refute her. I can't write a hub on Mormonism because I'm not Mormon. All I can do is ask questions and you are giving some great answers. Thank you.
First, this whole God being a man stuff is highly speculative, I would prefer that you show your sources so I know exactly where they are coming from. You make the accusation, you should provide the source. Fair enough?
Perhaps the question may be centered around the gosple of John; John 4:24 does not say God is "a" spirit, but says "God is spirit." There is no "a" in the Greek. The Bible also says "God is truth" or "God is light." Those things are true, but we don't presume God is JUST truth, or JUST light—or JUST spirit.
As one non-LDS commentary puts it:
That God is spirit is not meant as a definition of God's being—though this is how the Stoics [a branch of Greek philosophy] would have understood it. It is a metaphor of his mode of operation, as life-giving power, and it is no more to be taken literally than 1John 1:5, "God is light," or Deut. 4:24, "Your God is a devouring fire." It is only those who have received this power through Christ who can offer God a real worship.
Next to put to rest any false accusations of "the Creation of God", We believe that inteligence is eternal and exists upon a self existant principle. How can a soul be immortal and yet it has a begining? As the lord God lives, if it has a begining, it will have an end.
I remember for a while, some Mormons visited my house. My house is open to all who come in the name of the Lord. Even though I was born and raised in the Catholic faith. I guess my mother taught me to be more open. because she would sit and listen to all who came to our home. My meeting with the mormon was going good until they showed me a picture of about thirty people in suits and said they were all angels. Then they showed me a picture of this man, last name Smith. They said he was Jesus Christ. When I didn't agree, that was the last time they visited my home.
Onusonus, I know; I've seen passages translated (KJV) states "God is a spirit", which I felt more offensive; kind of like saying God is a God. God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit that manifested Himself in the person of Jesus Christ and lives in us today. I understand Mormons believe they are three separate persons, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Again, you can read my hub "Who Do You Say That I AM?" Amen.
However, I wasn't sure I understood your verbiage about "intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self existant principle". You'll have to explain that one more clearly.
The Bible teaches that God always was; no beginning; no end, and that He never changes (does not gradually become different, better or more exalted). The last link I provided http://www.mormondoctrine.net/articles/God_became_ showed the doctrine that God was a man and gradually became God (or a God of many gods). That is taken straight out of the Mormon theology.
Rose Ella ~ wow, more things revealed. Onusonus? Anything to say about this one? Was Joseph Smith Jesus Christ? Are there angels in your founding fathers?
No we do not believe that Joseph Smith was Jesus Christ. We believe that he was a prophet of God. Interestingly though we are not Bible inerrantists, and I for one do not esteem the prophets as infaliable. they were all imperfect humans, they made mistakes just like everyone else, and endured through the viscisitudes of life by the nature of human frailties and weaknesses; they were chosen to till the vinyard, so to speak by the power of the Holy spirit.
We could get into very circular arguments concerning subjects like; nature of the Godhead, Faith-Grace-works, etc.
But try to focus on what I am saying here; We believe that ALL inteligence is eternal; ie. you, me, God, Christ, Rose, and everyone else. we all had no begining.
I take in consideration that God has created mankind with minds capable of instruction, and a faculty which may be enlarged in proportion to the heed and diligence given to the light communicated from heaven to the intellect;
and that the nearer man approaches perfection, the clearer are his views, and the greater are his enjoyments, till he has overcome the evils of this life and lost every desire for sin; and like the ancients, arrives at that point of faith where he is wrapped in the power and glory of his maker and is caught up to dwell with him. But we should consider that this is a station which no man has ever arrived in a moment.
Onusonus, I don't know who Rose is? Is she a heavenly Mother god or something? You didn't answer as to whether there were angels in your founding fathers?
The nature of the Godhead and grace-faith-works are very core foundational beliefs that identify true from false. These are very important issues to discuss fully.
You say that no man has ever arrived at that point of faith where he is wrapped in the power and glory of his maker and is caught up to dwell with him? What about Enoch and Elijah? Both were taken to heaven without seeing death, even!
Our glory is Christ's glory only; never of ourselves. The Word is clear that our righteousness is as filthy rags and we are not saved by works (even after we believe). We only use 10% of our brain. Because of Adam, we are all born into sin and no righteous works will ever make up for that. Jesus already paid the price, our debt IN FULL on the cross. We never have to "pay Him back", as I shared with you before. God only demanded payment from a forgiven debtor when the debtor then went after one who owed him ~ he didn't forgive as he was forgiven.
You take into "consideration" that God has created mankind..." Do you believe God created ALL THINGS?
As far as prophets being "infallible", prophets of God were never mistaken; never changed because they spoke directly from God and God never made a single mistake. The fact that Joseph Smith made prophesies that were overturned by Brigham Young and so forth speaks loudly, don't you think?
Man must not put a church over God and His Word. He gave us all we ever needed in the Bible. Any prophesy that does not preach the SAME GOSPEL, does not CHANGE the GOSPEL, is of God.
First off, I was talking about Rose Ella Morton who jumped into the conversation. (see six comments up) you yourself acknowledged her presence.
Second I didn't say that no man ever arrived at that point, infact I was talking specifically about Enoch and Elijah and acknowledging that this happened to them. you need to reread that paragraph. perhaps if you didn't go for the meat before the milk you wouldn't be confused. Now replace the word moment for instant. make sense?
Onusonus, so "like the ancients" is what you meant about Enoch and Elijah? Okay. Understood. You just contradicted your statement when you said "no man has ever arrived". So, I did ask you a couple of more questions above ~~
No man has ever arrived in a "Single" moment, or perhaps an instant. the point being there is a cretain ammount of growth required in order to prepare the individual for the Kingdom at hand.
I notice that you havn't posted some of my comments, none of them were even remotely inflamitory. What's the reason? Are you saying that Joseph was not persicuted? You do realize that being verbally assaulted pales in comparison to what happened to him, don't you?
Onusonus, your comments was appearing to me, but I guess I forgot to check "approve" on one of them, not intentionally. You've been most gracious in your responses. I love the way we can discuss this openly. As far as God being a man on earth, I provided the link twice now. See above. I hope you can see all my comments?
I'm not saying Joseph wasn't persecuted or died for his beliefs; I said there were myriads before him that also died for the Bible alone, for Mormonism wasn't even around until the 1800's.
While we become more and more in love with our Lord and thus grow in the knowledge of Him and His Word, we do mature, but we don't obtain more righteousness than we obtained when we first believed. Mormons believe that one has to believe, then do all kinds of works to obtain a greater salvation ~ or is it salvation altogether (earned by the works)? Or is it "godhood" earned by the works?
The Bible teaches that faith without works is dead. Jesus said you must be born of water and of the spirit to gain entrance into the knigdom of Heaven. So it is taught in his parable of the ten talents. "take therefore the talent from him, and Cast the unprophetable servant into outer darkness." The Lord expects a difference.
hello carrie nice to meet you,
good hub, all i would like to ad is this mark 4:12 and i highlight "and they hearing they may hear, and not understand, LEST THEY SHOULD CONVERT, and be forgiven them thier sins". 4:18 "and these are into the thorns being sown". pls read the whole chapter for context & prov16:4 "and the lord has made ALL things for himself even the wicked for the day of evil".&."my sheep shall know my voice" ect..its his way, gods got it just focus on him, love
That is even if either of these religions are right. Don't forget that there are many other religions out there and I've never died so I don't know which one is the right. No matter what I think that having faith of any kind is a great thing. It all breaks down to the same two things anyways. Be good to one another and try not to mess up to much.
Onusonus, Isaiah 64:6 states, "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
You quoted "Faith without works is dead". Correct. This has nothing to do with salvation. We are saved by His grace alone because of our faith alone. AMEN.
johnh, I know ~ it is very sad to think some will not have their eyes opened. There's another doctrine that believes ALL will be saved, but there's far too much evidence in the Word to the contrary. This hub is be informative, all to the glory of God, whatever that may be.
The Agro One, I suggest you read my hub, "God of gods" http://hubpages.com/hub/God-of-gods, which will prove to you that we serve the Almighty God, Who was, Who is and is to come, the Creator of the world. The King of kings, the Lord of Lords, the Great I AM. You were created by One God, your Father. Man gave the dominion to sin in the garden of Eden. Our Father made the only Way back to Him. Do you want to spend eternity with your Creator Who loves you, or the Hater who hates you? There are only two forces in the universe: good and evil. You have the power, given to you by your Creator, to choose. Evil mimicks Good in order to hate God, our Father. God loves those Who will call on His name and be saved. Amen.
Judah's Daughter, there is no proving it. All religions have "FACTS" proving that they are the one and only true religion. Who cares what name you call your God? Quit placing so much emphasis on the creators name but what they teach us. I don't think that a kind loving God can be so petty as to be jealous but that is just me. I think that the way that we treat others in our everyday lives is far more important. You can say and feel and even believe what ever you want, I'm just saying why not quit arguing about what happens to us when we die and start trying to make life worth living while we are still alive to enjoy it. If we just let go of the stuff that doesn't effect us on this plane of existance and strived to better the world around us I think that Earth as a whole would be a little closer to "Heaven" and not so much like the "Hell" that it has become.
How is it that you can quote Faith without good works? It is by those good works that the lord knows you had faith. Show me how you can be saved without Faith then you can leave out the good works.
What does it prophet the brethren though a man says he has faith and not works, can faith save him?
Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith with my works.
Now if you wish to continue this light debate, you can mosey over to my place so I can see ALL of my comments. later!
Onusonus, while it's easy to twist this verse around to say we are 'saved' by the 'works' of faith, WORKS do not SAVE. Faith produces good works, which are rewarded in heaven; we are not saved by works. You still haven't answered as to whether you think God the Father is the Creator of all things, who created you; and as to whether you believe He alwasy existed (no beginning and no end)?
The Argo One, John 12:25 states, "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." (KJV)
While I can appreciate your views, I happen to care about your eternity, not the breath of life here on this earth (which is only a split second in comparison). If I believed this life is all we have, I would have no concern for the salvation of souls.
Regarding God being jealous? The Bible tells me so: Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:" (KJV).
God is love and love cares. I hope you will come home to your Father, your Creator and Savior, while there's still a breath left in you. Amen.
Wow what an interesting hub. I know absolutely nothing about mormonism and if I can find the time I may research it a bit. I also agree with Carrie though, that the main questions here are not answered. I would really love to know. With regards to good works and faith. I believe I am saved through grace. The only reason I do good works is because I enjoy doing it and its part of the love they neighbour as theyself commandment. If I'm in an way wrong in any of my comments please inform me as I'm learning as I go along. Please keep this hub going. I really wanna see the answers to those questions that seemingly being avoided.
Thanks Carrie!
lil.k, you are right on about the works of faith and the commandment of God. Amen! You just keep on in the truth! God bless you mightily.
Carrie Bradshaw you are great :)
Onusonus why do you ignore me. No need to reply. Joseph Smith was born a man and he died man. He was never a God. There might have been many of people in his lifetime that worship him as a God. The first commandment is "Thou shall no other gods before me" And you know it is true that other speaks of Joseph Smith as they would speak of Jesus Christ?
All I can say is, Onusonus refutes what the very doctrines reveal, and he doesn't mind that his prophet, Joseph Smith was made the highest level of a Mason immediately, and yet was kicked out for polygamy. In other words, if he hadn't been kicked out, he would have stayed in. The fact that so many original "god-given" revelations were tossed out speaks volumes as well. Someone is lying, and when there is not consistency in all these stories, it is a big flag in my book called the Bible. Amen.
Rose, Nobody in the LDS church has ever worshiped Joseph Smith as a God. This is a flat out lie, Just as is Carries lie about Masonry. Joseph became a third degree Mason, and I'm pretty sure there are about thirty or so levels of this faction.
There is however a group who uses unorthodox symbolism, is discriminitory of Homosexual teachers, demands money from the public by selling their goods at extreemly hightened prices, holds ralleys for promotion amid their ranks, and only allows males to enter into their socioty.
Often times they take long journies into the wilderness to indoctrinate the new commers or those seeking fellowship. While the full detail of their modes of opperation are scarcely pervious to the outside world many see them as a threat to modern socioty. they are the Boy Scouts.
Get it?
Now quit dragging me back! Thanks.
Onusonus, The factual information about Joseph Smith and his affiliation with the Masons is searchable online. You can say it's a lie (as to his level), but the fact is, he was a member and you told me in writing that he was kicked out for polygamy. I haven't accused you of lying, and I'm only stating what is published and what you said yourself. I can't believe you are even going there regarding the Boy Scouts...my goodness.
I know, I reaserched it. The fact is that you said he was the highest level of a Mason, which he was not. Ergo- Lie.
Now regarding what I said about the Boy Scouts, that was pretty uncharacteristic of them wouldn't you say?
Onusonus, you can keep coming back here if you want to, but here's another ex-Mormon who has a lot to say about your prophet Joseph Smith, the Masons, the occult and the LDS church ~~ I'm only sharing what is published: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/M
Hey that sure is a loving and non-biased approach towards Mormonism if I ever saw one. Although, I don't think that Jesus is going to be too happy that Bill shamelessly revealed sacred Temlpe ordinances to the world for open mockery.
But back to the Boy Scouts; did you know that Niel Armstrong was a graduated Eagle Scout!!!!!!
Makes one think that the whole Moon landing was staged......
Well, this hub isn't about the Boy Scouts, for they haven't made it into a restored prophesy of the God of the Bible...hardly a comparison. I truly love you, and all people; as I also pray that I will run the race with diligence and a pure heart, as Paul says, that in the end, I myself not be cast away. I truly am humbled before the God of our fathers who is our Creator, our Savior, my Abba. Amen.
Carrie,
I am a loving person too, I wish nothing but the best for you and your family, But you present to me an article entitled "Joseph Smith and the temple of doom" and you expect me to take you seriously?
Onusonus, you stated, "Although, I don't think that Jesus is going to be too happy that Bill shamelessly revealed sacred Temple ordinances to the world for open mockery."
Our God is not a god of secrecy. That should tell you something. He is the Light and shines upon darkness. When Light is shined, there should be no "revealing" of secrets. This hub is entitled, "What Mormons Didn't Tell Me". I don't think you guys go door to door and cover these occult similarities, do you? It takes a very long time for you to even know what all this is about.
I think there's something terribly wrong here, but I'm just here to be a mouthpiece to try to enlighten you. If you've known all these things all along, then you made a very accountable decision before God. If you are confident, then so be it, which is the word, "amen".
Carrie, overall your hub is very helpful. As pointed out, there are a few "faith promoting rumors" that are quoted. A lot (A LOT) of Mormons really don't understand their own doctrine, which really isn't that surprising, so many people in most any religion rarely devote the kind of time and dedication as you have to truly understand the doctrines.
Michelle, your exMormon example, is pretty typical of the kind of "faith promoting" superstitions that many believe, but that doesn't mean those superstitions are actually doctrine. It's kind of like when something gets whispered in one person's ear, and it changes dramatically by the time it reaches the end of the row.
I'm not here to try to correct anything you've offered. That's not my point. Only that the information you gave really is accurate about Michelle's experience, but not actually accurate about what the doctrine truly is. And again, this is a fairly typical scenario from sect to sect.
One thing I can verify is that while the official Mormon Church itself claims there are no other "sects" there are break-offs (they just don't recognize them as having any association with the Mormon Church). Sects such as the FLDS do practice polygamy, while the official Mormon Church does not. However, if you were to ask anyone on the street, they would most likely conclude that the FLDS and Mormons are the same thing. It's a perception issue, that's all.
I just wanted to point out that Michelle's experience is valid and true to her experience, but in many cases does not represent actual Mormon doctrine. Her perceptions about the doctrine are not always accurate.
I'm not here to promote Mormonism. I have experience with it through my family. I'm not here to promote any religion since I think they are pretty much man-made concoctions. I do believe, in the end, that it is an individual responsibility to form a relationship with God, not an organizational one.
Thanks for you good work, regarding insights and information.
Daniel, yes ~ I do believe there are people (which is the problem) in every walk of organized religion. Even people in the "orthodox Christian" faith have some twisted perceptions and stories that become poor witnesses to the unlearned. This is why I wanted to dig even more and find out more. This Bill gentleman was a witch, a mason and a Mormon and compared all three in doctrinal practices, revealing what he found and why he got saved, and knows he's saved now. God used it ALL for GOOD! Amen!!
Nothing I find in Mormonism shows the roots of their doctrine are the same as that of the Bible alone, Jesus' message and the message of the apostles...though they do utilize many of the foundational truths when conversing with others. I mean, how many Christians of any doctrine really get to the root of things? We spend so much time debating differing "beliefs" and opinions more than anything else!!
Each person does have an individual responsibility to form a relationship with God (outside any organized religion ~ as religion can be as dead as a heathen, spiritually). When we truly know God, and He knows us, it is evident. The roots show and are never moved. They are solid and sure and founded on the Bible, line by line, precept upon precept. No "new revelations", "adds or deducts", no re-written Word, no oppression or salvation by works of the flesh. Amen!!
Carrie, I realize I'm playing devil's advocate here, but what if the Bible were riddled with perceptional errors as much as Michelle's perceptions of doctrines (be they Mormon or whatever, Michelle becomes an iconic representation for any believer). What if any such scriptural writings were also inaccurate because of perceptional misunderstandings, and those misunderstandings were a result of limitations of the finite human mind, and also limitations of language?
It is possible.
To cast such doubt could shake the very foundations of faith as we have learned it. However, I might add that it doesn't necessarily have to quake and rattle what is found at the very inner core of a soul. Every human in history is fallable, but the Lord himself. Therefore, every human who has contributed to, or written what is now scripture is not without flaw, and therfore, their writings may [MAY] be subject to flaws also. Historically we always say that God would inspire that soul, therefore, prevent such flaws.
I'm not so sure.
At our individual core, at that point where all extraneous noise becomes silence, and one feels the full weight of loneliness, and if one is curious enough to find out what is in that silence, feel it transform to stillness, and in the stillness discover that he/she is not alone, there is God. There is nothing one can read, nothing one can do to comprehend it. One must simply "be." It is only then, in my limited experience, do we begin to fathom the greatness of "I Am." And we suddenly realize the infinite importance of who "I Am" actually is, and that we, extentions of I Am, are incredibly insignificant, yet, sublimely and significantly loved.
Once having had this experience, one can never look at religion, dogma, arguments, apologists, and tantrums the same way. One must evaluate that singular experience, return to it, feel it over and over, and conclude the world is filled with the most monstrous noise, and that peace only exists in the stillness, in the awareness of I Am.
Daniel, you are not playing Devil's advocate, for you have spoken the truth. I don't base a discernment on anything without going to the roots. It's kind of like an investigation process. There's "circumstancial evidence" and there's "hear-say", etc. One must dig and dig to see the consistencies. Truth is consistent. The true God is consistent and never changes. Cults follow a prophet that changes prophecy over and over again (which supposedly came from God)...and so many other things (massively changed the Word or interpretation). There are dots and tittles of doctrine everywhere, but the foundational truth never changes.
That saving experience you speak of with "I AM" is awesome and true. However, we do have a "pretender" out there who claims to be "I AM", for this is the ultimate blasphemy. A good liar gets away with lies sometimes; an excellent liar most of the time; but with the father of lies, it takes the Holy Spirit to know!! Those who don't pray to "I AM" through the BLOOD of Jesus Christ, the Lamb, may never know or be enlightened with the truth.
One can be satisfied with one's own salvation, but God gave us the great commission, and that is to spread the gospel. To rightly divide the Word of Truth and preach it, teach it, exhort, edify, admonish, etc. The Holy Spirit will do the rest, for faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word is what will judge all mankind on the last day. So, if we're following a massively changed Word, which in the Bible we are told NOT to do and clearly so, we are protected by the Word if we reject a contrary gospel. We will not be judged. For those who so confidently follow a contrary gospel, which is usurping the authority of the Bible that precedes it, that is a grave risk, and according to that Bible we follow, it means they are "accursed".
That's the truth. I live in the Spirit of God, and it is the Spirit of Truth, and until God changes that truth in me, which might be more of an enlightenment or correction, but not a massive change of foundational doctrine, I receive it gladly and share it (after I test that truth like I said ~ confirm, confirm, confirm). TRUTH IS CONSISTENT AND NEVER CHANGES. Amen.
I am not defending the Mormon faith in any way, but perhaps you should do some research on the character "Lucifer." The name is only used in the Bible once, and it was a mistranslation when King James had the texts converted from Latin to English. The myth of Lucifer comes entirely from the work of poet John Milton's "Paradise Lost," which is the very first reference to Lucifer having been an angel cast out from heaven.
Hi jacklhasa, actually, I have done in-depth research on Lucifer and have a hub on my Judah's Daughter profile called "Lucifer: The spirit of Antichrist!" http://hubpages.com/hub/LUCIFER-The-spirit-of-Anti I do not believe Lucifer and Satan are the same entity. You are correct, that Lucifer is only found in one version of the Bible, replacing the words "star of the morning", which is the name "hay-lel" (Hebrew). Jesus is also called the "morning star" in Revelation 22:16. I believe Mormons listened to the spirit of antichrist, who claimed to be Jesus ~ and that would be Lucifer or another fallen angel(s). Satan does indeed disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Cor 7:14), for he has dominion over all the fallen angels and uses them to deceive people, for he is also called the "father of lies" (John 8:44).
very nice hub thnaks
Very interesting series of posts. I am a devout Latter-day Saint. I will not delve into contradicting or advocating anything said. It is a useless cause in such a format as online communication. I will, however, say this of myself. I believe the entire universe was built upon the foundation of agency or the ability to choose, also called liberty. Anyone - who chooses to tear down someone else's faith, no matter what evidence they claim to have, cannot be led by a correct spirit of intention. It is counter to liberty. A proper course of action for all people is to express their own faith in their attempt to persuade others while respecting the faith of others. This allows liberty to work in the life of the individual and is parallel with the structure of the universal foundation of agency. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is constantly in the cause of liberty and the agency of man, yes, and woman. As a leader in the faith I testify to this.
Go ahead and produce all the anti-literature you wish. The fact that the Church is still, and will always be, the most attacked faith on the planet only strengthens my testimony of the divinity of the mission of the Church. The membership of the Church is composed primarily of converts from all other faiths and those on no faith at all. No other faith compares to the convert action of the Church.
I respect your liberty to post this hub and to carry out your cause to destroy the faith of others. It is your agency. My hope, however, is that you and all others in like cause may one day drop the walls of pride that they have all around them and at least pay proper respect for those of faith that they admire so much that they lack in themselves.
Truth comes from the action of faith and much less in words and publications. The action of faith is out there in service amidst the people of the world and not in the cowering corners of HubPages or any other pages on the internet. That is not where truth resides.
I do thank you for all the thoughts. May your days be long and happy.
goldenpath, So you are without excuse ~ to choose your religion of a false god and anti-christ over the true God and the true Word of God, which is Jesus Christ of Nazareth (God with us). While YOU say, "Anyone - who chooses to tear down someone else's faith, no matter what evidence they claim to have, cannot be led by a correct spirit of intention. It is counter to liberty", the Word of God says "(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete."
The spirit of intention is not the Spirit of Christ. Jesus Christ rebukes false doctrines and His children do the same. Jesus rebuked the spirit of Satan coming through Peter, whom He loved. He recognizes the spirit of Satan and so do His children. You are following a doctrine of demons ~ a doctrine of the damned. And this I say by the authority given me in the name of my Lord, Jesus Christ and by His Spirit.
While you think "A proper course of action for all people is to express their own faith in their attempt to persuade others while respecting the faith of others," God says He is no respecter of persons. You are under His wrath until you repent, so Satan's got you believing you are being "persecuted" for righteousness' sake. Do your works make you righteous? You obviously believe that salvation is earned as you graduate toward your heavenly existence.
Jesus, the living God says in Mattew 5:20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
His Apostle Paul said in Galatians 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Do you see the words "NULLIFY THE GRACE OF GOD" here? The Law of works unto salvation NULLIFIES THE GRACE OF GOD.
We are NOT made righteous by the LAW or works. Yes, faith produces good fruit, which is evident in all we say and do. Ephesians 2:8-9 verifies all of this, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Our righteousness is made perfect in Jesus Christ's atonement for our sin alone. 2 Corinthians 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." WE are made righteous in Christ alone. The PROBLEM IS, YOU ARE FOLLOWING A FALSE CHRIST. You think He is not God, but a separate person of the Godhead. If you want scriptural proof that Jesus is Yehovah Elohiym, in the flesh, read my hub on Judah's Daughter "WHO DO YOU SAY THAT I AM?".
A false Christ cannot save you and you are following the Anti-Christ, the doctrine of Satan, who is the father of lies. I speak BOLDLY as I ought to speak, for the Spirit of God is bold!
Acts 6:10 "But they could neither refute the wisdom nor withstand the Spirit by which he kept speaking."
Ephesians 6:19 I believe "that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak."
If you are beyond repentence, it is God's doing. How do I know this? 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 "because they [Mormons] did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved, for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is putting your faith in good works. They are as filthy rags to the true God! Isaiah 64:6 confirms again, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." ALL OUR RIGHTEOUS DEEDS ARE AS A FILTHY GARMENT? (MENSTRUAL CLOTHS)????
You must receive and believe in the true Jesus Christ, Yeshua (Yehowshua). I have loved you enough to tell you the truth and rebuke Satan in the Name above all names, the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior. The rest is up to you. I pray you are not only set free for yourself, but that you will be as Moses and set multitudes of people free unto salvation through the real Jesus Christ!
True. The spirit of contention is not the Spirit of Christ. Yet, the basic premise of your entire remark is of a deep abiding hate of the Latter-day Saint faith. You do not preach against what you don't understand or have lived. You can't "try" a thing for a while and claim all knowledge of it. Christ is God. Nothing deminishes that. The very name of the Church is, "The Church of Jesus Christ". Yes, we do believe that Jesus Christ is a separate personage from that of the Father. It is through the Father that Jesus Christ is the way and the life. Because of this perfect oneness Jesus is able to claim righteously what's called Divine Investiture. This is where he is referred to as Father, which is true, but is meant as a oneness with Him. I am not damned for that belief no more than you are for not subscribing to my belief.
There seems to be a condescending tone of thought in your response that Latter-day Saints claim salvation. Nothing could be further than the truth. No person on the face of the Earth can honestly claim salvation. Only Christ can accomplish this for an individual. Our entire faith is built upon faith in Jesus Christ and also of personal progression. Life, itself, is about progression. To claim salvation as many do out in the world is folly and is a demonstration of the walls of pride within oneself. I am grateful I don't have the flaxen cord of contention around my neck. I express my thoughts and let things be. I have faith in Jesus Christ that through His workings all truth shall be made manifest. I do not tear down the foundations of another individual as the Master teaches.
I respect and appreciate your thoughts and opinions and I hold absolutely no judgements on you also as the Master teaches. May you have success in your personal righteous endeavors.
Considering Latter Day Saints believe God the Father was once a man of flesh that obtained godhood, and that God the Father currently has flesh and bone, He is not the same God the Father of the Bible. The Bible says clearly that God is Spirit (John 4:24). The other "name" for His Spirit is the "Holy Spirit" that now indwells every believer because we are made righteous by His death in the person of Jesus Christ and His resurrection. Did Jesus not say "I will raise it up", speaking of His body? (John 2:19) and yet Romans 8:11 states the Spirit of God raised Him from the dead? Yet more confirmation.
Considering the Bible interchanges the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ throughout, He is God, Who is Spirit that became flesh for 33 years.
John 1:1 states, "In the beginning (that would be before all things) was the Word (let's see, that would be the other name for Jesus), and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD." Are your words not with you and are you? We are made in His image! God is not three separate entities in oneness, but is one God (Elohiym - plural as in greatness "x" with a singular article THE).
The Oneness (as in a husband and wife become one flesh) of Jesus Christ with the Father is due to the split manifestation of God because God was born of a virgin in the flesh (He, as Spirit, overshadowed Mary and begat Himself), yet His Spirit remained ominpresent. As a Man, Jesus showed us how we also must pray to God the Father (Who is Spirit). Is it not interesting that the Spirit that descended upon Jesus as a dove spoke with God's voice? "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased". This is because that Spirit IS God! God the Father was both with Jesus and indwelt Jesus. Likewise, God is now both with us and IN us. Therefore, we are made sons (children) of God by adoption (Romans 8:15); we do not become gods nor are we gods.
Salvation is not a progressive state. We are either saved or not, and it's by His grace through faith alone in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible, Who is God Himself in the flesh. The only IMAGE of God is Jesus Christ. There is no other image, for God is Spirit and is invisible, the Word of God says so. Jesus is THE image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15); He was not "made in His image", but is "THE image". Yes, in the Old Testament God manifested Himself as fire or clouds, but that is not the physical image as in Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is not to be dethroned to lesser than God, to that of an angel. Lucifer is an angel. In Hebrew his name is Heylel (star of the morning). The word "star" is used in the Bible referring to angels when it came to the fall (Revelation 12:4 and 7-9). In fact, Lucifer is not mentioned at all in this "war in heaven". It only mentions the "Dragon, the Serpent of Old, the Devil and Satan". To say both Lucifer and Jesus were brothers is blasphemous. This would mean God has more than one Son. The Bible says He has only ONE SON (as in offspring). Angels are created beings and Jesus never created Himself. Through Him all things were created, even the angels (John 1:3). The angels bow to worship Him! "To which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand'?" (Hebrews 1:13) "Right hand" is not literal, but representative of POWER MIGHT AND GREAT AUTHORITY (Ex 16:6; Ps 118:16).
Because you don't know the real God who is Jesus Christ, who is also the Holy Spirit, you follow a false god, christ and spirit.
So, as you wear those "holy" undergarments, remember how soiled they are. Our "righteousness" (through works, even as the scribes and Pharisees) are as filthy garments. I pray you will come to realize this truth and the error of your doctrine. It is the doctrine of the fallen angels, who appeared to Joseph Smith in the woods.
Galatians 1:8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what WE have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" You preach a different gospel that is based on fallen angels, also known as the "doctrines of demons" found in 1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times (days) some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons". Would the 1800's qualify as "LATTER-DAY", "saints"?.
eovery says:
5 months ago
Sorry but you have several things wrong in this hub. And if you are attacking religions like this, you should make sure your facts all correct before publishing them.
You have taken truths and mixed them with false claims, and do not understand what you are talking about.
You need to make sure of your references before you quote them. They do not even start to make sense and in no way would happen. You are in grave error here.