What is Shou' Shu'
74A Rarity Among Martial Arts
Shou' Shu' is a rare gem among martial arts. It is quite different than any of the styles out there that I am aware of. Of course it shares some things in common but there are aspects of Shou' Shu' not found elsewhere.
There are a number of reasons why it is different than other systems. we could go into depth into those reasons but that's more space and time than I want to put into this page. so I'll gloss over them a bit here.
A Jewel in the Muck
Yesterday when I was training with a friend he said "Sometimes the most valuable of jewels are hidden deep in the muck". I really didn't pay much attention to what he was saying nor do I know what he was reffering to at the time. But it did bring some thoughts to mind today.Shou' shu' was once hidden deep in the filthiest of muck and remained there for many years. Right around 1901 or so Chinese families in US cities requested that Martial Arts masters from mainland China come over to the US to teach martial arts. The reason for this was that they had no protection. The Chinese were in very low standing in the US at the time and they were not afforded police protection. Chinese businesses were often robbed and nothing was done about it. So they took it into their own hands to protect themselves. The martial arts masters taught the young Chinese men how to fight and then these young men would roam the streets acting as vigilantes.
At first this was an honest protection system. But soon it degraded into criminal activity. Protection schemes were born and these gangs soon became what would later be known as the Tong (often called the Triads). These Tong members trained hard in their martial arts because they were on the street fighting every day. They needed their training to be at it's best.
Later on but while this Tong activity was still occurring China went through a great deal of turmoil. Communism gained power and many cultural and educational things were eradicated. Scholars were targeted along with martial artists. These groups were either strictly watched over and highly regulated. Or they were killed. Many of them escaped the country and went to freer lands such as the US.
So for the most part the martial arts were removed from China. To this day we know of no true martial arts still existing in china despite the popular belief that is the hub of martial arts. the only places left where true fighting arts were being taught were within the triads. Only hardened criminals now possesed the art.
Da' Shifu Al Moore
Da' Shifu Al Moore
Around 1939 a young man by the name of Al Moore was running around on the streets of Emeryville California with his best friend Jimmy Chin. Jimmy happened to be the grandson of a Grand Master of Shou' Shu' by the name of Lu' Chin.
Lu' Chin was probably what was known as a Dai Lo. A Dai Lo was a martial arts master who was used to organize a Tong. Often times this Dai Lo was the only connection the gang had with the true gang boss. In this way gangs could be formed to do the dirty work but if something went wrong there was very little connection to the business men who the gang worked for.
From the accounts of this time that I heard from the late Da' Shifu Al Moore the group that trained under Lu Chin were all men in their mid to late 20's. He and Jimmy were the exceptions. They were boys of only 13.
this young man Al Moore eventually ended up fighting in WWII and after that he travelled to China to continue his training in Martial Arts. He became a grandmaster himself.
Later in life he opened a martial arts school. Originally called Moore's Karate because at the time the words kung fu were not well known. Everyone reffered to martial arts as karate even though they were not.
These schools were early on comprised of men in their 20's. They were street fighters learning how to improve their street fighting skills. The atmosphere still held some of it's trappings of the Tongs. Tough attitude and fight at the drop of the hat spirits. Training in those schools was not always pleasant but it was the best training there was so we put up with it.
But this was actually a good thing for the art. The art was tested on the street on a regular basis. Every day there was a fight and what was good was proven to be good. It wasn't exactly the high level of humility and moral code that we know today but it was keeping the art effective.
So What Makes Shou' Shu' Different?
It would take a book to really describe Shou' Shu' thoroughly. Although one never fully masters the art it takes abouyt 30 years to complete the system at the pace Da' shifu thought best. So describing every aspect of it would take at least as long. However there are a few important things which separate it and make it unique among the many thousands of martial arts systems.
Flowing, Focussed Chi
all systems have Chi of some sort ( I think). There is internal Chi and external Chi and one or both of these can be found in any system of martial arts. However in Shou' Shu' the chi is both flowing and focussed. I've seen many systems of kung fu that have flowing chi, both internal and external. However I've never seen a form of kung fu that appeared to have chi that was both flowing and focussed.
What i mean by focussed is that every bit of the energy that the body can produce is brought to one point. This is done mainly by using two principles. the first is the proper use of momentum. In a shou' shu' strike every possible part of the body is creating energy in the direction of the strike or block. This may be in a linear fashion, circular, serpentine, or whatever. but in some way each body part is helping to contribute momentum to the strike. Not so much as a finger is moving in a direction as to detract from the overall momentum.
Bone Alignment
The second principle most commonly used (although not always) is the principle of bone alignment. Basically what happens is at the moment of impact all of the bones in the body line up, just for that instant, in such a way that all of the energy is transferred out of the body and into the opponent. There is no give. Like a cue ball striking another ball, all of the energy is transferred to the other ball.
The two principles are the combination of yin and yang, in this case the soft and the hard. The practitioner flows effortlessly between these two principles. As a practitioner gets to the higher skill levels the hard becomes so fleeting that it can hardly be detected. The hard is only momentary to transfer the energy.
In hard style martial arts this hard reinforcement can be seen. It is emphasized and obvious. In Shou' shu' it exists but can get to the point that it cannot be seen.
For me using physics equations explains why this is so important. I like to express it as such:
E=1/2(MV^2) this is the common expression of energy.
But what is far more important than energy in MA is what is called Impulse.
I=(1/2(MV^2))/T^4
which can be more simply stated as
I=E/t^4
this is an equation for transfer of energy. Basicaly what it says is that Impulse power is the available energy times the inverse of the amount of time that energy is applied to the 4th power. Or in other words. The shorter the amount of time the strike is applied the more energy is transferred. To a huge degree.
Shun Shifu Phil Weaver
The Beasts
Shou'Shu' is comprised of 7different systems. Each of these systems is based upon the movements of a particular animal. These animals are: Bear, Tiger, Mongoose, White Crane, Preying Mantis, Cobra,Imperial Dragon.
Each of these animal systems is a specific way of moving and each is a different way of creating power. Combined they are Shou' Shu'.
What I have noticed in my study of these beast systems in comparison to other animal systems is that to me they appear to very much actually mimic the body motions of each individual animal. In my opinion other animal systems will use one aspect of the animal such as the way a Mantis uses his barbed hooks. but not the body motion. Shou' Shu' concentrates on the body motion of these animals. since shou' shu' is very focussed on power generation this body motion is far more important.
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Comments
Curious martial artist is sure a funny name. But then I bet that's an alias for Shun shifu Vargas.
Anyway curious, which degrees do you refer to.
SSW
Word is that you left the Moore's system at 2nd degree.. what is your rank at this point in your "shou shu" career?
I was asking about your degrees and such simply because if you left Moores, How did you promote further in Shou Shu? I've heard that there are others that know shou shu as well but I've only heard bits and pieces... thats why I ask... I don't mean any disrespect.
Hello Shun Shifu Vargas,
Sorry if I did take offense. I'm just so used to being attacked online. No big deal though.
"Word is that you left the Moore's system at 2nd degree.."
Well there are a lot of words about me LOL
Actually I was a third at the time of leaving Moore's. My actual test was in front of what I thought was a large board. It was the Friday of Spring camp 2002.
Although I certainly respect so many that were in the board that tested me the test that was far more important to me occured Fall of 01 in Da' shifu's back yard. He gave me a lesson (probably the last he ever taught) and told me he'd come down to the studio in the next week or so to "finish things off". It was a great lesson and the compliments I got rom him meant a lot.
So as far as rank goes, that was the last time I tested. I am still wearing a third degree.
However far more important to me than rank was knowledge and learning.
This is the biggie. I've never posted it online in an effort to be as respectful as possible and not stir things up. Maybe it's not as important to anyone else but me. But it is important to me.
Not long before Da' shifu's passing we had many talks together. He knew he wasn't going to be around much longer and he was guiding me.
sorry, this tears me up a bit but.
He made me promise him a few things. He was quite stern about it in his Da' shifu way. One of those things was this. He said:
"Phil don't ever let anyone change what I have taught you"
He stopped me, looked me in the eye and pointed his finger in my face. He made me repeat it back to him.
There was more to the discussion than that but that was the most important thing.
So mid 2002 I had recieved a number of lessons in, shall we say because I have no other way of stating it, Southern Shou Shu. and yes, things were changing.
I tried in my mind to justify. I thought "I can keep this separate". But the reality was that I could not. One day I was practicing. Can't remember what it was but what happened was I felt a motion from the Monkey stick form I had recently learned creep into my Shou Shu. At that point I knew without a doubt that I couldn't go on and keep what Shou' shu' I had pure. I was not honoring my Da' Shifu.
Well things were getting pretty tough on me in the organization anyway. It was a pretty emotional time for us. Not only had we lost Da' shifu who was like a father to me but me favorite uncle had died a week or so before and my wife's best friend had been murdered. It was tough times.
Then my wife gets in a pretty bad fight with the leader of your organization. It was nasty. Screaming and yelling right in each others face. Plenty of witnesses in total shock. Then he gets a pinched nerve in his neck and goes on a rampage.
Next business meeting he's ready to attack me. and he does. Pretty nasty stuff which I'll leave out.
so not only did I know I had to leave but it was made very clear that I was not welcome anyway.
I'm rambling I guess but here's what it came down to.
I felt it more important to keep what I had. And had promised to do so. Than to get any more rank.
And that's about it.
Fortunately for me, yes there are lots and lots of people outside of the Moore's system who know Shou' Shu'. I have trained very regularly and am constantly learning. I spent about 5 or six years mostly training in Crane and feel pretty good aboout it but I'll let others judge. I've been training in Mantis for awhile now. I can't say I feel real good about that yet LOL But I'm having fun with it.
There's been more traing than just the beasts of course. I can say I feel pretty darn good about the new knowledge I've recieved. And I haven't concerned myself much with what's on my belt.
So anyway, I hope I've answered your question. Probably to much I guess.
SSW
Wow, that was alot to read. I appreciate you taking the time to write me back. One can see the heart in your words. I can respect that. With respect.....
Shun Shifu Vargas
Thanks for finally posting such a great article, it's long overdue. Good Q&A as well.
Yep, I agree
Thank Shun Shifu Vargas for dragging it out of me :-)
Shou Shu true family tree
Back to:Al Tracy
Richard Lee Family Treea.k.a. Richard CuvelierBok Fu Kenpo
Mike AdairTom AmaralTodd ArendBob BeyersRobert BogolubMichelle BrownRich BrownJohn BuckleyRich BufordRich CampbellLauren CanasSarah CarsonHerb CodyJohn CoenTim CoenDavid CurranJoe DeMeoPat DouglasNorma FutiniSteve GaudenziTyler HanamuraJim HarbisonGlen HasstedtJohnny HeinJohn HeitmanRyan HodgeRobert ItoTony ItoMark JacobyAimee JurewiczJim KaneTerry KaneGerry KawaguchiBill KellyDave KirbyAdam LathramJustin LauCollin LeeRon LeeAnna LiuJohn LiuChris LongMorgan MaloneKelly McGovernMitch McKayBrad MederiosMike MendozaMark MillerAl MooreAl Moore, Jr.Ralph MooreMia MunayerJoan MurakamiMorgan NewmanJim NgJohn OzunaArt PanellaBrandi PiacenteJurgen RenkeAdam SanchezKevin SchutzmanJohn SimmonsRay SlaterMichelle SosaDave ThomasGary ToppinsMark VanderpoolJim VincentMarc WheelerLars WolfeJohn WordenTony Zitko
Dude, what did the Moore's do to you that you spend your life promoting that supposed history.
Al, Ralph, and Al Moore Jr all found under Richard Lee name (Family Tree) listed on Tracy's Kenpo web site. family Tree. I talked with the Tracy's, The whole Shou Shu story was made up. He was a beginner when he started with them in the mid sixties.
The Family Tree: Al Tracy
Good Luck in your Kenpo Journey!
Egg on face of the students who took Al Moore to China to see where he had studied the secret art of shou Shu.
Dear Sir
The debate over Shou Shu can only be made between the Moore's words and the words of the men that claimed to have trained them. And the backgrounds and accomplishments of all men involved in the story of Shou Shu. Goggle Sigung Stephen LaBounty, or Ted Sumner Kenpo, Bryan Hawkins Kenpo, Al Tracy Kenpo, Richard Lee's Bok Fu Kenpo. All with great accomplishments, and all have the same story of Al Moore's Shou Shu. Your debate is with these men and what they have said, in books, e-mails and what they have listed on their web-sites.
Have you contacted these men, If not please do so and post what each say, all Shou Shu students should do so. Then post what each of the men say.
Good Luck
Ed Parkers - Encyclopedia of Kenpo Chi A Chinese term used to describe the powers that can be generated when the mind and body are totally unified. It involves total complete synchronization of mind, breath, and strength to achieve maximum force. It is that extra inner force created by the precise synchronization of the conscious and subconscious mind, along with an individual's breath and strength. A (Few) Concepts of Chi Back-Up-Mass
The use of body weight that is directly behind the action that is taking place. For example, (1) a punch delivered when the elbow is directly behind the fist, or (2) the bracing of one finger directly behind the other when delivering a two finger chop to the throat, etc. Back-Up Mass is greatly enhanced when proper body alignment is achieved. Body alignment gets mass into proper perspective and allows the body to take full advantage of channeling weight and energy while traveling in the same direction (directional harmony)
Body Alignment
This involves the placing of angles into perspective. It is the coordination of body parts in order to harmonize the angles at which they travel. All parts of the body are aligned to travel in one direction. This principle, when followed, automatically triggers the principle of back-up-mass where body weight enhances your action.
Body Fusion
A concept in which body parts move as a unit prior to relaying action to other parts of the body. These body parts are literally fused together in order to function as a single unit. Body fusion can occur any time during the course of a sequential flow of action. Example (water = flow and ice = fusion)
Body Momentum
The utilization of body weight to increase the force of your action. It involves the coordination of mind, breath, strength, and body weight while shuffling forward or in reverse so that all forces are moving in unison.
Fluid Movements (Flow)
Moves that flow with continuity.
Focus
Is the result of the entire body working as a unit at the very instant a target is struck. The concentration of mind (knowledge) breath, strength, and methods of execution must unite as one in conjunction with body momentum, torque, gravitational marriage, timing, speed, penetration, etc.
Super-conscious State
This state is created when the conscious and subconscious minds harmonize (to use the above concepts, without thought ) and work as one to bring about that genie which is each of us. When brought to the surface, this genie performs beyond the limits placed upon our natural or normal self.
For more Kenpo online terminology go to max dojo (terminology)
Sorry, The Moore's are no longer listed on the Tracy's family tree,
Search The KenpoNet: Family Tree (Full Index) and look under the letter "L" for Richard Lee aka Richard Cuvelier to find Al, Ralph, and Al Moore Jr. on his Black Belt List.
Salute
The Smell Test!
Mr Moore claimed to have become a Shou Shu master in a ten years period, but as listed above, it takes about 30 years.
Mr Moore claims to have learned Kenpo so he could teach techniques in Shou Shu, but in his article he say's he started teaching in 1955. But we know Mr Moore and family spent around 6 to 7 years learning Kenpo in the late 60's and early 70's. Which is also different from his own words in the article when he speaks about learning techniques from his Da Shifu's in China.
Did Mr Moore or any of the Moore family ever talk to you about training under Richard Lee to learn Bok Fu or Tracy Kenpo or any of the other men listed above? Why did he not stay in touch with any of these famous men.
Many times truth comes from facts that are not spoken that shines light on the words that are spoken!
Salute
American Kenpo Karate emphasizes controlling the opponent’s center in failing the attack. This Centerline Theory is a major trademark of the American Kenpo Stylist.
Center of Mass
An odd phenomenon where maximum power can still be obtained through the center of mass remains stationary, and the body limbsstrike out in opposite directions. This phenomenon can only work if the center of your body mass remains centered regardless of the opposing forces ofy your limbs.
Hello Former,
I've been contacted by you numerous times. Every time I've responded the email bounced. Evidently you like to use fake email addresses.
Both your emails and numerous posts all over the web started towards the end of 2002. Strangely, not long after Da' shifu passed away. The reasons for that timing I don't know.
But for these last years I have not replied to you publicly so far as I remember. I just didn't want to get into it. But you've spread so much disinformation around the web that at this point I am certain you have affected many.
So I guess what I'm saying is that it's time that someone responds to each and every one of your statements. As noone else seems to be jumping at the bit to do that I guess it's me.
However I don't have time to do it all at once. Unfortunately I don't have the spare time that you seem to have. I'll answer everything eventually but in order to answer everything fully I intend to answer each point individually and take my time doing it.
Also I feel that it is better that I answer your questions at www.shoushu.com . this will allow my to fill that site with some of the information it needs anyway.
I have approved all of your comments here. I have not denied any of them and within reason I will do the same there.
You can expect your questions answered over there in the coming days as I have time to do it.
You know who I am. I would hope also that you would reveal who you are.
See you over there.
Sir
As I stated before, If this is disinformation it comes from Al Tracy, Richard Lee, Mr Labountry, Mr Hawkins, Ted Sumner, Mr Sutherby and numerous ex (and ) current Shou Shu students, that have researched the question of Shou Shu.
Conclusion 1.
That the men listed, are honest when they say the Moore's looked like beginners when they started in the mid sixties. And that the Moore's never mentioned any training in China to any of them.
Shou Shu is a mixture of the martial arts styles taught to him by the men listed above.
Conclusion 2.
Mr Moore learned Shou Shu durring the Chinese revolition. fighting (1946– 1950) in the Chinese Civil War.
Mr. Moore was a member of the Triads.
Mr Moore became a Kung Fu master in the time frame of ten years,(1939 to 1949, while finishing middle school, high school, boot camp, and a hitch in the US Navy, then two and a half years in China. ( don't forget the time needed for ship travel to China in the 1940's)
Two choices, take your pick. I beleive what my and many others have reveled with phone calls and research. But it's up to the the student to do his or her own research to come to their own conclusion!
Best to you and your'sSalute.(Finished)
I guess the finished means he doesn't wish to participate anymore.
Too bad I haven't even started yet. But I will.
I'm interested in your writings Shun Shifu... I've written a request to be allowed access to your website.
Respectfully,
Shun Shifu Vargas- Elk Grove CA
Wow! I am seeing alot of venom here.
I can only speak to my personal experience...Here goes. I started my martial arts training at Moore's Karate in 1982 under Shifu Steve Hendricks...Advanced to green belt...Joined the military and was out of the area for the next 20 plus years. I never found another Shou Shu instructor so I studied everything I could find. In the military me or my instructor moved every couple of years. So...Tang Soo Do...Shorin Ryu..Ishin Ryu...Shotokan, Hun Gar, Hapkido, American Freestyle and Finaly Tae Kwon Do where I eventualy recieved and advanced to a 2nd Dan Black Belt. Each and every one had something to offer...I guess what i do now is a hodgepog of all of them. Never cared about the history of any of them...for me the key was finding a good qualified teacher. Thats it...could they teach me and was what they were teaching effective? Blew out my knees about 10 years ago and quit training but now I am back training again...I chose Moore's Karate because I found a good teacher and I KNOW it's effective...it works. Thats just me. I don't know if that helps anyone reading this but there ya go...Moore's Shou Shu teachings absolutely do work regardless of where it came from.
Respectfully
Frank Kasper rockhaven1@comcast.net
A easy why to find the answer to the age of any Martial Arts style, is to find the ages of the top ranking practitioners of the style, and what year they started their traning! certificates have dates. OH, unless the dog ate it!
Peace
Ito's White Tiger Inc (Bok Fu) -- web siteWeb Page Listed (About Kenpo)
I've seen the white tiger practitioners. That is not shou shu and has very little relationship to shou shu. Yeah they know how to do rising knee but shou's shu' is not a technique art. It is a principle art taught through techniques
Ito White Tiger Inc. (Bok Fu)
Check out the family tree at the bottom of the (About Kenpo) page.
and you should talk with Mr Ito, he trained with the Moore's under
the Tracy's and Richard Lee. You can contact him on his web site.
I've talked to most of those guys from those schools back then. Perhaps I'll stop by Mr. Ito's school sometime soon. I'm in that area once in awhile. Will i find you around there?
You are wasting your time Shun Shifu Weaver. I have sent a similar individual very detailed responses to some of the very broad generalizations made. My replies were very objective and detailed, however this individual either did not reply or did not want to reply. I think they are just putting out their version of the "Truth" but really do not care to engage in any meaningful dialouge. I have earned rank in both Shou Shu and Kenpo and felt I could answer questions or engage in discusion but I guess not.
Shun Shifu Vargus, former maybe the same person who was posting the blogs about Da Shifu Sr. If I remember correctly the person had been slighted or was insulted by Da Shifu Al Moore II. I do not remember if it was him directly or a family member. In any event that is more than likely the motivation behind the postings.
I too am very interested in the writings and details of the past. The closest I ever got to Da Shifu were my lessons with Shun Shifu Clark. I have emailed you site as well.
Shifu Salindong
Hello all. I'm just curous about this art... http://www.shenghunkungfu.com/bear.html
I see they teach the same animals. Is there any connection with them and Shou Shu. Also, what about Kenpo and Shou Shu. Heard Da Shifu Sr. befriended Ed Parker and took Kenpo's tech and added the Shou Shu motions to them and thats how Shou Shu is taught today vs how he learned Shou Shu, one motion at a time.
Thanks.
Hi Madmax,
Yes there seems to be a connection of some kind. I have trained with them a little and there are some interesting corrollaries. However there are some big differences also. It is unclear exactly what the connection is.
Yes, Sijo Da' Shifu did take Ed Parkers techniques as a basis to teach Shou' shu'. That is correct. That is where a great deal of the misinformation comes from such as the above posts.
If you think of it in the opposite way if you teach Shou' Shu' very simplistically and take all of the major Shou' Shu' principles out you basically have kempo again. I suspect that is what happened to Former Shou Shu guy who always posts that Shou' Shu' is kempo. In a sense, if he learned Shou' Shu' from someone who simplified things then he is right. It is kempo. He just doesn't understand that not all arts taught under the name Shou' Shu' are necessarily the same art. Which is to bad but unfortunately relatively common in the martial arts world.
SSW
Ed Parkers American Kenpo concepts and principles taught in
(yellow belt) first three techniques Delayed sword, Alternating Maces, Sword of Destruction
Anchor, Angle of cancellation, Angle of disturbance, anticipate action, balance compensation, base technique, borrowed reach, buckle, cancelling of natural weapons, checks (cocking, detaining positional, rebounding,) contact penetration range, control, family related techniques, fighting gap, follow-ups, force field, forcasting, frictional pull, height zone, marriage of gravity (droping of one's weight) open the fighting gap, reaction time (Hick's law) environmental awareness, renewed attack. sink Stabilize your base, also to surge your body mass or kick, etc. striking range, transitional moves, witdth zone, to pivot or rotate, accidental strikes, alternating, angle of delivery, angle of deflection, angle opportunity, back-up mass body momentum, borrowed force, bracing angle, colliding forces, committed action, counter rotation, defensive checks (cocking,chamber, positional checks, preparatory, pressing) dept of action, grafting,kiai, law of conservation of angular momentum, line of travel, lower case block, margin for error, path of action, point of contact, power, shortening the ark sound barrier, thrust, torque, wipping, whiplash effect, apex, back-up technique, body language, center line, center of mass, circular motion, combination attacks, compounding techniques, drilling, execution time, instinctive response, intercept, orbit, paralysis perception, Reverse motion, Timing, sliding, roundhouse
For more information (American Kenpo Legacy Association)
Study American Kenpo Karate as originally taught by Ed Parker! Experience Authentic Kenpo
For more information contact Kevin lamkin here in Kentucky
No, that's not what happened, I followed up on the information leading to the men listed above. Phil's e-mail to Al Tracy after Al died.Subject: Re: Sensitive Question: Sorry to hear about Albert: Yes, he and his brother studied kenpo with us in the late 60's and they were some of our ( original Black Belts.)They actually did most of their studying under Bob Blackmoore one of our Black Belts. Al Tracy (2002)
You found the same answers as I did, you decided to go with The old timers love the 1976 interview in the Fresno paper, found on the free Wikipedia, I guess the sending of eight twenty year old to the hospital received the most laughs.
Conclusion 2.
Yes that is true. I did email back and forth with Al Tracy and i did speak with him on the phone. I also spoke with others from that time. some relayed similiar stories. Some had different stories.
However there are stories and bits of evidence that I am not currently willing to share that really throw a wrench in the stories. Sorry, I know it's not nice to throw something out there like that and not follow up but.
And really in the end what it comes down to is I can't find one shred of Shou' shu' motion in kempo. Hardly even the bear which you would think would be standard fare. The other beasts motions are compoletely non-existent in any kempo I've seen. I've done my research. Watched videos of the masters, gone to tournaments, and I've taught countless kempo practitioners that have come to my school. I've yet to see anything.
Although I've seen the faintest glimpses of Shou' Shu' motions in some forms of kung fu they typically are pretty watered down. they look like they might have had a relationship generations ago but are hardly recognizable now.
I have found one guy who had a purely cobra art. He was as shocked to find me as I him. His art was unrelated to any other arts as far as he knew and was taught to him privately. That was a trip.
So it really comes down to this.
1) Da' shifu's story is true. He studied shou' shu' at a young age and used kempo as a way of teaching it later on.
2)Da' shifu studied kempo and later made up his own art.
and maybe there is a 3
But here's the deal from my stand point. From my experience in studying and teaching Shou' shu' for the last twenty some years and realizing it's complexities and wonders #2 is just to incredible of a story. Da' shifu was amazingly smart but noone could have come up with Shou' shu' in one lifetime. It's completely unfathomable.
And if I'm wrong, who freakin cares, I'm sticking with Shou' shu' 'cause I've never seen anything like it or even anything come close to it.
Like they say " I don't care if he got it out of a gumball machine. I want it"
I too, have information not stated, amazing what a SS #, PI and $500, can come up with in a short period of time. I know what I know. If Shou Shu is real it was not learned in China in the time frame claimed. (you should do the same) It was after this information, I talked with the men listed above. The Man In The Glass
Anonymous
When you get what you want in your struggle for selfAnd the world makes you king for a day,Just go to the mirror and look at yourselfAnd see what that man has to say.For it isn’t your father or mother or wifeWhose judgment upon you must pass.The fellow whose verdict counts most in you lifeIs the one staring back from the glass.You may be like Jack Horner and chisel a plumAnd think you’re a wonderful guy.But the man in the glass says you’re only a bumIf you can’t look him straight in the eye.He’s the fellow to please-never mind all the rest,For he’s with you clear to the end.And you’ve passed your most dangerous, difficult testIf the man in the glass is your friend.You may fool the whole world down the pathway of yearsAnd get pats on the back as you pass.But your final reward will be heartache and tearsIf you’ve cheated the man in the glass.
Leads-Jimmy Woo, Al Novack, I was told Al Jumped around a lot.
Best to you and your's (Trully)
You can see Jimmy H woo's San Soo on you tube. I know, it's the same but different. See if you have heard this story before. (Moore's Interview) give or take!
Search
Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo Kung-Fu San Soo Associates
It is common behaviour in the martial arts community to nag at each other. Everybody pretends to own the better system, the more effective skills. What it really boils down to is: What do you expect?
Do you want to practise a healthy sport? Do you endulge in beautiful body movements? Do you want to impress other people with athletic techniques? Do you want to learn street fighting? Do you rather go for the philosophical aspect or Eastern myth?
There are many motives - and each one is to be respected.
Effectiveness of a martial arts system depends on the individual skills of each person not on the system itself. The more you practise the better you become - but as you get older you will again loose the dynamic and reaction a young guy may display. There are also physical pre-requisites. It is a myth that a tiny lady can overcome a 6 foot weight lifter ... except if she ...
Well, what I want to say is this: enjoy the martial arts you're with and stay humble! If you look into several systems you will find many things alike. As simple as it is: the wheel cannot be invented twice. Of course Shou Shu is not unique. It is a mixture of styles and got the animal ways from kung fu.
Personally I have practised Ju Jutsu for 35 years and earned a couple of black belt degrees. I would not like to move around like an ape or any other animal because my knees would make their veto. But younger people are free to try it. There are many roads to the final destination we will never reach ...
Shou Shu doesn't ruin knees or any other body part and age has nothing to do with speed or power.
Hi Ju Jutsu master,
I agree with your beginning statements.
Disagreeing on who's art is better is common behaviour.
The best martial art is dependent upon what you are looking for. However most of your "do you wants.." are not describing martial arts at all. Unfortunately all of those things are typically called martial arts.
But from there on out I'd have to totally disagree with everything else 100%
Phil
Some of Parker, and Richard Lee students went to Jimmy Woo in the late 60's
Jimmy Woo also went by the name (Jimmy Chin) and he recived his master title in 1983, around 70 years of training. Anyone that has trained in any martial art or trade, knows it takes longer than 10 years to master anything.
That one statement of Al's being a Master at anything at the age of 21, would bring a smile to any (True tradesman) or adult.
Shou Shu is a mix martial art, This can be a good thing if taught right.
This is not about what MA is the best, Just truth.
I have heard something similiar to that but I didn't have a name of the guy they went to. Can you point to anything of Jimmy Woo's (or his students) that looks like Shou' Shu'.
I've trained many of Richard Lee's students. I have several in my school now. None of them had any shou' shu' principle when they started. Those that remember also all say that when Al Moore entered to the school he brought all the black belts in the back room and taught them (Including Richard Lee) However when you hear it from Richard Lee the story is different.
Point me to one instance of cobra or mongoose motion and I'll be interested.
Phil
Shun Shifu, is this what you mean by Southern Shou Shu, the guys in black with yellow stripes down their pants?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo6iHtSj5oQ
Um, well definetely not what we would call Northern Shou' Shu'.
Shou' shu' is very hard to put on film. Done right it's motions are very small and if you don't have eyes for it it might look very unimpressive. But it will sure feel impressive to the opponent.
Those guys are trying to make it look showy for the camera. So they might not be displaying their true skills.Or maybe they are.
I see my old training partner krieger there at the end.
lol, understood
ShunShifu Weaver, you know as well as anyone that video is strictly for entertainment, those are students from a few schools that are showing off their athletics and speed in Shou Shu. There is no southern shou shu.. Jung Moon has differences from his father that he liked doing in Shou Shu and he had them adjusted when he took over the system. Thats it.
I really have been enjoying the debate with Norm Waters and to read that he paid money to dig up more lies is beyond me. I found your information on the research you did quite interesting as well and I am really happy to hear you were able to defend Da'Shifu Sr and show more of a positive light on all the crap Waters has been throwing out there. But I took the comment from your student disrespectful.
With respect,
Shun Shifu Vargas
Norm Waters? So you have a name for this guy. Do tell.
I'm not sure who you are refferring to as my student. As far as I know I don't have any students posting here. unless they are hiding under a screen name and not telling me.
I agree. There is only Shou' Shu'.
Yeah, I used to frequent Martial Arts Planet, he got on there as well as some other websites and started bashing Shou Shu and its roots. He would blast any and every thread of a forum with his copying and pasting of "his story" of the history! He goes under different names on every website he encounters but my debates with him has always been under this user name Norm Waters. He truly has an agenda against Shou Shu but he won't come out and tell us his name, I asked him one time because he started giving some break down of me but shyed away from my questions and at one point thought I found him and when I threw the name out there of him.. he as well as some norms on that website had a fit about me mentioning a name and such. So I just see it as "I'm damned if I do and i'm damned if I don't".
I'll be training for some Shou Shu demos for the September camp, I'll be sure to let you know when I download them so I can share.
Much respect,
Shun Shifu Vargas - Elk Grove Moore's Karate
You know the really funny thing about this guy is he appeared IMMEDIATLY after Da' Shifu passed. I could go through my records and find the exact first date he emailed me but off the top of my head I remember it being weeks or maybe a month or so at the most. I just remember still being in a pretty crazy state at the time.
I look forward to your demos. That'll be cool.
and by the way, yes I know that putting Shou' Shu' on film and making it look good for someone who doesn't know what they are looking at is extremely challenging. I personally will never let demos deviate from true Shou' Shu' but I realize that is merely a personal decision.
with respect
Shun Shifu Weaver
Sheng Chi Training Center
Shun Shifu Vargas
Now that you have mentioned a name I seem to remember a Lee Waters on MAP stirring the pot, could this be the same guy? Also can't wait to see your demos as well. It is also rather convenient individuals such as this have come out of the wordworks after Da Shifu Sr. passing. As a side note that an individual can not be a "master" at a young age I offer this: Doc Fai Wong, who most all will claim as legit, earned is master rank at an early age, somewhere around 24,I believe. It's on the web and easy to find, so it can and has been done by traditional MA. Shun Shifu Weaver I know you are not ready to share some of the old stories of Da Shifu and his involvement in Kenpo & Bok Fu but I am sure everyone would love to hear about it !!! I think the first thing I realized when studying Shou Shu is that the depth of knowledge and its underlying principles of body mechanics are NOT found in Kenpo, at least the Kenpo I am familiar with. Also there are several Shifus who have done both Kenpo and come to Shou Shu who can relay the exact same thing. A hodge podge of comments and thoughts.
Salute, Shifu Salindong
Hey Shifu Salindong,
I did track the guy down using a little sleuthing at one time. Postings and emails leave behind traces such as IP addresses. I'll have to dig up my records but if I remember right the guy I traced it to was named Waters. He was pretty old and lived on the East coast I think. So I don't know what the connection is. Of course this could have all been spoofed.
When Da' Shifu tested someone for any given rank beyond say green or so the decision to test was really based upon a really important question "Is this person at a point that they will continue to season and grow in their knowledge". Of course this is an individual assessment and somewhat based on a persons mindset. are they humble enough to continue to grow. Are they introspective. In many systems (and in a way also in ours) there are a minimum number of years. But we are in a situation where the instructors can take their time and watch over the development. I imagine that if the situation were different. Say an intense full time training scenario that I could see a scenario where the masters would release students into the wild who have gained all the knowledge necessary but have not seasoned into it. In this scenario I see it as the best possible way of creating grand masters. and of course these Grand Masters would season into their knowledge over the years.
I think it was my second to last lesson with Da shifu. He was teaching me the mongoose. He stopped and said "ah so that's what they meant". I questioned him and he said he just fully understood something his teacher had told him 60 some years ago. I'd say he was still growing.
It is amazing how many people came out of the woodwork immediatly after Da' shifu's passing. People who had been out for 30 years and all of a sudden they are active. Where were they all that time and why come back only after his passing. Leaves me a little suspicious.
You hit it on the head with the principles. I have poured over every bit of kenpo I can find. I've taught numerous kenpo practitioners including many black belts. They are always absolutely befuddled when I teach them principle. They can't figure out why their master didn't teach it to them. I've yet to find anything more than the simplest of body mechanics present in kenpo.
Although they do have some interesting phrases describing it as seen above.
Have a great day and happy fourth everyone.
Oh and feel free to comment over on http://www.shoushu.com I moderate the comments for obvious reasons but I'll certainly let you guys through.
SSW
Check out the 3rd black techniques (from the list on the side). I like how he holds his breath and looks down a lot. Sad and yet so many keeping saying Shou Shu is just Kenpo.
Shun Shifu Weaver, If you did some research and you found the "Norm Waters" or "Lee Waters", please share the information, like he said... it's public information and its out there for the taking.... well give it up? I'd love to know who this person is.
Infinite Insights into Kenpo Volume 5 Mental & Physical Application by Ed Parker
Page 129
Principles Pertaining To Five Swords
(Orange Belt Techinque)
1. Point of origin
to
85. Exit angle of protection
85 principles taught in this technique, How many do you teach in your version of five swords.
Great book,shows how each technique should be broke down to be taught.
Another great book with a lot of information about Bruce Lee and his training with Ed Parker, and Bryan Hawkins take on Shou Shu and the Moore Brothers is (The Journey) By Joe Hyams
Your right about American Kenpo schools, 95% of them do not teach Kenpo with the concepts and principles as laid out by Mr Parker in his books!
No problem, after I re-Read the website I noticed they mentioned the Tracy Brothers, but not Richard Lee (Couvelier) nor me. Al & Ralph primarily, trained with me for a short period. They started with Richard Lee who was a Tracy student with a school in Castro Valley, who hired me to train his higher ranks in Kenpo, this on the recommendation of Al Tracy.
Vernon Moore, "Little" Al, Moore's son, and Jerry Melvin joined in to learn the Parker system more intensely. I had a school in the Fresno area that was floundering, so I loved to teach, needed the money and liked this group of people a lot. Essentially a no brainer.All of this was in the late 60's.
Big Al and Ralph decided to go their own way and get into the Shou Shu material.We parted amicably but several of the Lee and Moore students continued to train with me for a couple of years. Again, this was amicable on my part and on the Moore's part as well, at least that was my impression.
I had no knowledge of Al Moore's training prior to his taking kenpo. I didn't learn of it until they became successful with their own schools and began raising up high ranking belts. I don't keep up on these things unless my name is mentioned.
I have seen several of their (lower) forms in tournaments, and they look like our lower forms, only with a Chinese influence. I 've had no contact with any of the Moore family for over 25 years and don't really know where they are based out of or what they are doing. I hope this helps a bit. Once again, good luck.
S. LaBounty (2005)
Mr. La Bounty,
Part of what you said is very consistent with what I was told by Da' Shifu. That his son and others went on with the kenpo training while he moved away from it.
He said that he taught beginning students kenpo through their first four belts and then switched them to shou' Shu' after that. Which is, of course, consistent with what you saw.
So yes, that does help.
thank You
TED Sumner) Dec. 13, 2004 Search-(San Jose Kenpo Karate Forum,Has enyone heard of Al Moore)
Has anyone heard of Al Moore and his schools of Shou Shu in Ca. It is my understanding he started in the Tracy's system back in the early 60's.
Ted Sumner: Boy, you really are taking me back a ways. Al Moore Sr. and Jr. were students of Bob Blackmoore back around '67-68' Bob Blackmoore was a student of Hugh Alford at the old San Jose school. The Moore's were never around the San Jose dojo, which, given the high level of violent and insane behavior at that nuthouse, may not have been a bad thing. They studied at Alford's dojo in the Concord/Walnut Creek area and in the late 60's either purshased the school from alford or opened their own.
Though what they taught had it's base in tracy Kenpo, it was their own adulterant version of the art which they called Shou Shu.
I do not know what has become of them, although I had heard that sr. passed away. (TED)
Steve: Thank you Ted. I heard that Al Sr. passed away a few years ago. moore's seem to have about 15 schools through out Ca. Some people say that Al Sr. trained in China after World War ll for a period of time. do you know if that is true?
Ted Sumner: Not to my knowledge! I have never heard anything to that effect.They pretty much looked like average beginners when they started.
Phil
Check the date on Mr Labounty e-mail. This was a answer to a Shou Shu students question about Al Moore's training in China. But I am sure he would answer your questions.
I had a friend of mine ask him dirrectly about Shou Shu, he simply smiled and said (Tracy's)
Former,
I have heard numerous hearsay statements from individuals. Many of them have things to gain by making those statements. Whether they are true or they simply believe them to be true is hard to say.
You may continue to dig these up and send them over to prove your point. (I am still very suspicious of why it is so important to you). But nowhere have I ever seen Shou' Shu' principles of any quantity in another art. If Shou' Shu' was derived from the Tracy Brothers system then why is there no resemblance in motion. Certainly there is no dispute that techniques came from there. Yes I am quite aware that Bok fu uses for the most part the same material in their blue and green as we do in our orange and purple.
But techniques are only tools by which principle is taught. They are not really important. As a matter of fact I taught a lesson to my upper ranks just a few weeks ago and taught rising knee out of four separate beasts. Each one was pure. The technique is merely a tool. Da' Shifu chose the tools of kenpo to teach because they were the best around.
Shou' Shu' can be taught without the use of techniques. I do this a lot. However using them makes the teaching process much easier and yes without a doubt this idea was taken from kenpo and yes probably mostly from Tracy's kenpo.
However, Shou' Shu' is not kenpo. And it is not kenpo merely with a Chinese influence. I have yet to find the principles of Shou' shu' in mainstream Chinese arts either.
I have spent time with masters of many systems of Chinese arts. I was a guest instructor in their school. The principles I taught were completely foreign to them.
Shou' Shu' is unique among arts.
Wherever it came from may always be under scrutiny. But when it comes down to it it really is not that important at all.
Passing on this great body of knowledge to the best of our abilities is what is important.
Knowledge can persist forever, facts, histories, and opinions are transitory.
SMILE!
Shou Shu black Belt
Martial Arts Fourm
Thank you so much for your post and web blog on the origins of Shou Shu. Years ago, I studied directly under Ralph Moore along with his son Rusty and daughter Kelly, and with Rusty received my black belt. Many times, I had discussed the issue of the origins of Shou Shu with Mr. Moore who had said that he originally studied Kenpo and showed great respect for Ed Parker. He said that his brother Al had gone to China to study 'Shou Shu,' to the northern city of Tian Jin.
Years later, I too travelled to Tian Jin, but not to study martial arts, but Mandarin Chinese, as well as to teach English at a university. During that time, I attempted to learn more about the origins of Shou Shu. I would discuss certain words with people, whether they were 'Shou shu' or 'dashifu'. Each answer, however, raised doubts about 'Moore's Karate'. No one had ever heard of 'Shou Shu' and as for the word 'dashifu' it appeared to be a miss application of 'shifu' or teacher/ master; the Chinese character 'da' means big, large, or great, while ‘shifu’ means teacher/ master. There was no specific word for master that separated a person from the common role of teacher. The word ‘shifu’ also should be delineated from ‘laoshi’ a title or honorific for a school or university teacher, while ‘shifu’ refers to someone applying a trade or skill, as in the English word ‘journeyman’.
As I reflected on these words, and my growing understanding of Chinese history and the Japanese occupation of Tian Jin during World War II, I realized that it would have been very unlikely for any westerner or even a native-born Chinese person to study martial arts during the period that Al Moore claimed. Of course, it is still possible that he could have passed through Japanese controlled territory and studied martial arts, ye as there is no collaborating evidence from other sources, it is unlikely. I am a university lecturer, I conduct a great deal of research, and it is the practice of my field, and those working with historical documents, to collaborate people’s stories. If we cannot confirm a story, then it remains an opinion.
In the case of Al Moore and the ‘supposed’ history of Shou Shu one would have to conclude that is his ‘opinion’ and while it makes for an interesting account, it cannot be verified at this time. I think your investigation has also shown a similar result; the documents that you have collected also relate the same conclusion.
However, apart from the ‘story’ of Shou Shu’s origins, as a former martial arts practitioner, I must comment that Al Moore’s martial art was certainly unique at a time when people practiced either hard styles like Tang Soo Do, which I studied prior to learning ‘Shou Shu’ or the soft Kung fu styles. Even when contrasted with Kenpo, Shou Shu shows marked differences in its application of ‘fluid’ movement, which may demonstrate a similarity with Tai Qi. Of course names of particular techniques were ‘borrowed’ but this does not mean that Shou Shu is the same as Kenpo, or even that Kenpo is somehow more ‘pure’ than any other martial art. All marital arts draw on similar body movements.
From my reading in Chinese, martial arts has always been re-developed or re-engineered to fit changes in society. Developers like Ed Parker modified early forms, as did Bruce Lee. Is it any wonder that Al Moore would follow their example and create a form that truly has unique, and yes, borrowed elements?
Practitioners have often weaved a combination of fighting skill with folklore and myth about their abilities. Martial arts are filled with ‘bullsh*tdo’ about their prowess, the speed of their strikes, the ability to move objects with ‘qi’ or ‘ki’. If true be told, any martial artist, including myself, would rather hold a gun in a fight. However, since Moore’s Karate is a business, as are all martial arts, one needs to create a desire for the product. The Myth that Moore’s Karate is ‘original’, that it can be traced by to China, and presumably the Shaolin Temple, creates a mystic that is enticing. People buy into this myth with their hearts and wallets and manufacture a community, not unlike a cult, which then attempts to evangelize other people into becoming members (See Apple Computer for an example of this).
Al and Ralph Moore are simply American businessmen who developed a great idea into a nice little enterprise. Who can fault them for this?
p.s. if anyone knows the whereabouts of Rusty or Kelly Moore, I’d love to hear about it.
Yes I've read that guys comments before too. You keep sending the same stuff. Isn't he the same guy that said the word Shifu was an incorrect useage of Mandarin. I believe he is. Spent a lot of time discrediting us because we used shifu rather than sifu.
Thee is no connection with Shou' Shu' and the Shaolin temples. I've seen this claimed but it never came from Da' Shifu I have personally heard him say otherwise and I've spent enough time investigating shaolin to know there is no connection.
Funny thing is there is a parallel in Shaolin history.
These sort of discussions are all to common.
Your agenda!
You say that Ted Sumner, Steve Labounty, Al Tracy and the rest of the men listed above all have things to gain, What could they be? Not only are they World renowned martial artists, full careers as attorneys, Law enforcement. Bodyguards to the Hollywood elite, National and International karate champions, Worked on many TV shows and blockbuster movies. Listed in many of the top martial arts magazines, Richard Lee has trained winning United States Kung Fu teams, and all have respect of martial artists all over the globe, and this is just a few of the accomplishments.
Now we have Al Moore, bigger claims than the men (Proven) achievements listed above. Trained by secrete Shou Shu masters in China in the late 40's. Became a Kung Fu master in a Ten year period. Taught some of the men above in back rooms ( in secrete).Note: If he taught them in back rooms, why don't you see your Shou Shu movements in their arts. When you ask known martial artist about Al Moore and Shou Shu you get two answers, Who, are, it's offshoot of Tracy, Lee's and Parkers systems. as Bok Fu, Lima Lama and many other systems. The men listed above meet and hang with other know martial artist, The Shou Shu group hang with other less known. Birds of a feathers flock together. Google Al Moore, nothing, or just the Shou Shu claims. Who did he hang with, wide eyed students which felt good to be in his presence.
Your Agenda.
School, Your workout tapes, wide eyed students etc, Shou Shu myth is not your agenda it's your life.
The stories above are not listed to convince you, or the die hard members of Shou Shu, I believe you already know the truth. It is information for people to make their own phone calls, and do their own research.
My advice is don't believe anything you hear, research yourself. News organizations use at least two sources. I used over ten.
The odd's that (all) ten + men would have a conspiracy against Mr Moore would just be silly!
Thank You
Former, why do you care? If you had such a bad exp with Shou Shu, you've got two choices, move on and live your life, or waste your life on Shou Shu.
We aren't going anywhere. I don't care if Da Shifu Sr. learned Shou Shu from a little green man on the back of a cereal box.
I don't care if he studied Kenpo and or some other arts and added a twist to it. I don't care if he stole Shou Shu from a monkey at the zoo.
I don't care.
Do you understand yet?
I'm still going with the won it out of a gumball machine theory. I like that one.
All the secrets of the universe hidden in a gumball. Makes me smile.
Ha. Inspiring myself to train harder in Shou' Shu'.
Yeah, that one is pretty darn good. ;)
I Like it,Shou Shu, Gumball Kenpo, has a ring to it. I bet it catches on.
Body guards, TV shows, movies, wow. Lots and lots of authority on the subject.
Let me ask you. What do you think of the Shaolin monks traveling around putting on shows. You know that wheel of life show thing. Authority directly from the Chinese government. Direct descendents of the originals. The absolute authority on Shaolin right?
Just asking
Why not finish the statement, Winning United States Kung Fu Team, Championship Fights, books etc. It's the achievements that one accomplishes that leads to the movie gigs, and the wealthy to want you to be the body guard. I would say not bad on authority.
You have taken your spoon feeding from Mr Moore very well My son.
Head on a swivel
Going to answer my question?
I have been fortunate enough to have tested in front of Sijo Da Shifu at least once that I can recall. I have attempted to go back to the "southern style" as it is sometimes referred to, and quickly found that I liked what i was originally taught a lot better. Call it personal preference. Regardless of anyone's opinions on the foundation of Shou Shu the fact remains it is a rare gem. With continuous research on fighting arts, I have yet to find a system that incorporates the principles of Shou Shu. The power and fighting skill of its practitioners is awesome.
Former, here's a challenge for you. Find a qualified Shou Shu teacher and get at least your Mongoose. Then you tell me where you can find the copied movements.
There is a long standing bit of wisdom that really catches my attention. I can't remember how it was said but the gist of it is.
Knowledge can persist forever where facts can be modified to suit the present.
That has been my course of study also. I've spent some time talking to those with opinions but my mainstay of research has been trying to find anything out there with any principles that resemble Shou' Shu'. I've found a few glimmers of small bits. But nothing substantial.
Facts are facts, We have Ten to One, I thank we know who changed facts to fit his needs.
According to Urban Dictionary...
1. "it is what it is"
A) A phrase that seems to simply state the obvious but actually implies helplessness.
B) A phrase that seems to simply state the obvious but actually means "it will be what it is," as in "it ain't gonna change, so deal with it or don't." See also tough xxxx, oh well, cry me a river and tears.
Meaning A
J: I can't believe the price of gas!
B: It is what it is.
Meaning B
J: It troubles me that you continue to put cyanide in my Yoohoo even after I've asked you to stop.
B: It is what it is.
2. "It is what it is"
Pop-eye!
Sure that makes sense. Cite enough sources and then your right.
Except the question is what's wrong
Qu'est-ce que c'est
Ok Former, you win. Al Moore Sr. is the biggest con man in marital arts history.
Now what?
We're still going to study Shou Shu.
You are right "it is what it is " a rare gem. A gem that will continue to be taught the way Sijo Da Shifu intended. Its practitioners will continue to get better as martial artists and individuals. Train hard
OK, I guess we're conceding.
Now let's get back to training
I agree, train hard, just know your lineage!
Read a book once in a while.Like Mr Moore said "A true martial arts should be like a sculptor who has been given a piece of granite, only use what is needed" Oh, wait this is a quote from Bruce Lee from Mr Parkers book Infinite Insights volume 1.
Now that I have time to write, I will address your comments
1) Lineage: Unfortunately to many western martial artists lineage seems to be some justification or ancient Chinese secret that gives their self-esteem or ego a boost. They believe that somehow it must be right or the best because of how old it is, or it contains some mystery to the meaning of life. Nowhere does it say in these lineages how good someone is. Many of the newer martial or fighting arts systems are great arts. For example Jeet Kun do about 40 years old, Krav Maga about 50 years old, Systema about 10 years old, and many MMA styles. On the other hand there are arts that have been around for hundreds of years that have their origins accredited to a person but there is no documented proof. I.e.: Taiji Quan, and Xingyiquan. Still yet there are also many arts believed to be extinct that are still practiced by a select few.
2) Martial arts styles are like finger prints: If you compare 2 together you will find similarities and differences. For example Baguazhang and Liu he ba fa, or, for the sake of argument, Kenpo and Shou Shu. To the inexperienced they may look alike but to the experienced they are worlds apart.
3) Martial Lessons: “Humility” Former, I believe that this lesson is something that someone taught you in Shou Shu that you are still struggling with. This obsession of yours with Sijo Da Shifu’s lineage seams to try and reciprocate a sense of humiliation. First of all, your argument is with Sijo Da Shifu. NEWS Flash a dead man. Which by itself is well………..sad. Considering your timing in coming out of the closet I also believe you feared and respected the man.
4) Being vindictive is not a way to persuade people to your cause. Also, some of the Kenpo people you have used have credibility issues in their world. Anyone would be foolish to take you seriously.
As for me I believe in Sijo Da Shifu and his lineage and the way he intended Shou Shu to be taught. For the sake of argument, If I’m wrong, So What! I will continue to study Shou Shu, frankly it’s the best art I’ve seen.
Humility lesson#2 “ If I let it bother me then I wouldn’t be Bruce Lee” Bruce Lee filming on the set of the Green Hornet. Read a book
If you feel you need to argue with more dead Kenpoists say Hi to Elvis for me.
I love want to be intellectuals,kind of like want to be grandmasters that nobody ever heard of. By the way, some of the men that trained Mr Moore and Family are still kicking. La bounty, Richard lee etc.
Same old story, make a phone call or send them a e-mail, very nice gentlemen! as I said students should do their own research.
You should contact these men, see if you think they are lying.
Good Day
Former, I just don't get it. So what, many have said long ago that the top Shou Shu guys studied Kenpo. Ok, so what. You have prof Da Shifu Sr. didn't study in China? Lets see it. Otherwise, you've got nothing.
And another thing Former, for all we know, you're a top ranking Kenpoist trying to make Shou Shu look bad. I'd be careful if I were you.
We read in the interview with Mr. Moore about the "Mandarin" art of Shou Shu, and some of the Shou Shu sites speak about Mandarin Warlords.
Question. Is "Mandarin" a people or a Chinese language? Answer: Language
common sense, #1.If Mr. Moore had training in China,and was a master Don't you think at least one of the men listed above would have noticed.
If he was a Grand Master when he left Mr. La Bounty in the late sixties he would have had a pot load of Kenpo students that would have joined him, and that they would still be talking about him today. Where are they. Why the silence?
Remember Al started teaching Ralph as a young boy, so he would have been a very advance in the "Mandarin" art of Shou Shu in the seventies, yet no history of Ralph either.
The information here comes from many Kenpo and Shou Shu people, I can't tell you what Mr Moore said in his interview is true, nor can I tell you what the Shou Shu blackbelt said is true, nor what the men in Kenpo have said. Read, research make calls and THINK!
Good Luck
Former,
I think the problem is that you are not thinking. It really comes down to one thing. If Shou' Shu' PRINCIPLE came from kenpo or any other art then one would be able to find that same principle in that art. It is not there.
I will tell you that I do have one student (lower rank) that trained under the masters you speak of and currently trains here every night. He's not the first. I have trained many. This guy always says things like.
"Yeah it's really similar to Bok Fu except you guys are better teachers."
Now this student is one of the stubbornest, bullheaded students ever. But that's ok we really like him even though he's a PITA. The thing is that everyone around him sees that he is missing the principles because he's stuck in the past. Slowly he gets it but very slowly.
I have taught many students who came from Bok Fu, a few from Shorynji kempo (They make the same claims, that they taught Sijo Dashifu. Yes I've spoken to them on the phone.) and a number from Tracy's Kenpo. NONE of them had any understanding of even the basics of Shou' Shu' principle. Nothing. Brown belts, black belts, whatever. In the first 5 minutes I taught them principle that they had never ever heard. Stuff that is simple and basic to us. Every single one of them got this completely baffled look on their face and said things like "Wow, I wonder why my teacher never showed me that" then they would come up with all kinds of theories. He didn't really like them. He was saving the secrets for later. It is really sad to watch. They have complete loyalty to their old teacher so their brains have a hard time figuring it out. I've seen this over and over.
You keep coming up with arguments. Wrong useage of the the words shou shu. Yeah right. Just like the big bashing of us for saying shifu rather than sifu. I've run into many MANDARINS and when they see the symbol guess what they say. Beast Art.
Your right. Mandarin is not a people. But it's much more than a language. Mandarin means ruling class. So the Mandarin language is the language of the ruling class, which of course is the official language because it's the language of the ruling class. Mandarin does not necessarily refer to an ethnicity. However because what we refer to as Mandarin came about from the Manchu invasion one could in a fashion say that Mandarin's are of Manchurian descent. this is not wholy true but for the most part it is accurate. In these invasions culture were assimilated into one another. Especially since to create a new culture the invading culture would take wives from those invaded. customs and knowledge of the invaded culture were then preserved through assimilation.
So you are right but it doesn't prove your point in any way.
There were many many Mandarin Warlords. And the thing is they were all very different from one another. They were not a homogenous people. So I apologize when we say on the Shou' Shu' sites it came from the Mandarin Warlords. They were all different and probably all had different arts. So it probably came from one or a few of them and definetely was not a knowledge that was widespread among them. I know that is confusing. One would think of them as a united group when that is just not true.
I had really hoped that this discussion would not have devolved into name calling and such. There is so much of that on the martial arts forums. It's such a diservice to martial arts as a whole. How can we ever expect martial arts to grow and benefit people if we all come across as a bunch of quarreling hot heads? this is a terrible thing from those who preach humility. It's like the gentlemans knife that is really a stabbing instrument. Or the MMA announcer saying what gentlemen the fighters are just after we see clips of them brandishing their egos (not all).
You, my friend, are not "saving people from Shou Shu" you are creating a debacle. You are doing a disservice to martial arts as a whole. You look for anywhere you can post about Shou' Shu' on the internet and you post YOUR truth. You constantly edit wikipedia because most people do not realize that anyone can do that and spread something as truth.
You obviously feel as if you are doing the world a service or righting a wrong in some way.
And in the process you anger men who normally are very polite and humble men. But you poke at their teacher. He's dead but you still hold some grudge against him.
So as far as i can figure one or more is true
1. As you have stated, you are informing people of the lies (saving them from shou' shu') You've also stated Shou' Shu' is a great art. So what gives. You are saving them from something great. That doesn't sound like a worthwhile endeavor.
If you want a cause maybe you could pick one more worthwhile. There are plenty. Children without clean drinking water in Africa. The starving on our own streets. Socialism.
It would be wonderful if you harnesssed all this energy you have for something good.
2. You feel you need to dole out retribution of some sort. If this is the case I would recommend church. Find a good one and listen.
3. You feel you have something to gain personally. If this is the case then I would advise that cutting of the heads of others to make oneself feel taller is not a good strategy in business or in personal relationships. If this is the case then I would recommend church and some sort of business training. Looking inside and concentrating on your own stuff would be advisable.
I hope in some way I have helped. Probably not. This will probably be taken as sarcastic. It is not intended that way.
I would only hope that you would decide not to continue to spread vitriole. It does no one any good.
Former, if you can't prove what someone said is false, yet you continue to advertise all over the net that the history of Shou Shu are lies, you might take a moment to collect your own thoughts or someone might get mad enough and you end up with a libel lawsuit on your hands.
Good luck.
A libel lawsuit would be a great idea, but remember I have just reported (IN WRITING)what Al Tracy,Steve La Bounty,Ted Sumner, Richard Lee's (BLACK BELT LIST) Mr. Ito's (KENPO FAMILY TREE LIST)(THE KENPONET FAMILY TREE LIST) and what Bryan Hawkins has said in the book The Journey (page 111) You can't get a better case than this. Print out the information and go for it. But the case would be against these men, not the messenger. But it would a great way to get the truth out there.
Again, Good Luck
What, that the masters of Shou Shu once studied Kenpo and that they didn't look like masters who studied in China to the Kenpo instructors. Ok, so they have an opinion but where are the facts that prove Shou Shu came from Kenpo and that Da Shifu Sr. didn't study in China. Cause I keep finding these claims on different forums and the same links that you keep talking about but no facts to prove anything. All in all, I guess you want to believe Shou Shu is just Kenpo. Maybe if you had stuck around longer, you would have realized otherwise.
ps, you can't find Shou Shu in China.
Your PS:
According to Mr Moore's 1976 interview, you know the one with Mr. Moore in the Karate Gi, and his partner with the row of Parker Flame patches on the sleeve. Mr. Moore's said there were two here in the US and only four in China that knew all seven beast. All must of all died without passing on the art in China. Page 2.
You also know we are told the only reason Mr. Moore took kenpo was to learn how to teach Shou Shu with techniques, because Shou Shu had no techniques. But Mr. Moore said on page three about putting the system together " Well it was very difficult, If you are studying from a Da Shifu, Which I did, then the movement of the all blended together. In China they were separated as individual beast. Some of the techniques are original techniques I learned from other Da Shifu's. Page 3
This brings two easy questions to mind. Mr Moore said he learned original techniques from other Da Shifu's, which had to be in China by his own words. Which kills why we are told he took Kenpo by using the words "original techniques" Read this statement again, " If you are studying from a Da Shifu, which I did, then the movements are blended" Which would have been in China under the Shou Shu masters, but in the same sentence he said "In China they were all separated. You think about it.
PS
Wonder what happened to all the other Shou Shuers that trained with Al and jimmy Chin in the garage in the 1930's.
In my previous comments I was a little steamed and came across very rash and angry. For this I apollogise, it was not my intention. I had previously looked at several forums and was not pleased. My intention was merely to provoke thought in a conversation that seemed to be going around in circles with no conclusions just accusations. Since posting my previous comments, it appears here any way, that there may be an actual discussion and progress. Well, hopefully. If this is the case, maybe other forums can learn from us here.
Good Luck to you Former
Accepted, Once I was looking through the same eye's.
Thank You
Former, I can't answer you question.
But what is youre underlying conclusion. That he got his black in Kenpo then added all the Shou Shu animal motions that popped into his head and taught it to us as Shou Shu.
Cause if thats what youre saying, I'm even more impressed with him.
The Animal Attidudes in Chinese Martial Arts Theory
Kenpo Karate, or Ch'uan Fa Gung Shou in Chinese, means Way of the Fist, or, more literally, Fist Law Method. Kenpo is a system made up of specialty self-defense techniques many of which have their roots in the theory and movement of the traditional Kung Fu system. Kenpo also employs the traditional five-animal structure of the old systems.
The five animals: Tiger, Crane, Leopard, Dragon, and Snake, allegorically portray the different aspects of one's character. The Tiger emphasizes an aggressive linear style, while the Crane represents the opposite element of defense and evasive counter-striking. The Leopard's speed incorporates the Tiger's aggression and the Crane's rationality.
Kenpo takes the Tiger-Crane-Leopard sequence to be the student level stages principally emphasizing a firm foundation in physical strength and coordination along with an exposure to the fundamental techniques of our system.
The Dragon attitude is noted for its emotion of controlled fury, so the mental/spiritual, rather than the physical component of an individual, is the focal point of the Dragon. The Snake stands for Ch'i (Ki in Japanese), spiritual power--derived from the unification of mind and body. In Kenpo, the practitioner's personality is broken down into these five component aspects, each represented by a corresponding animal. Then each of these facets is worked on singly, and following that, all five are again reunited into one developed whole. Each finger of the fist stands for one of the five animal facets, and the fist they make when united may be taken to be the hidden sixth animal, the Monkey.
The Monkey is the first step to mastery, to complete humanness, to the final level of Sage. The Monkey combines the intellect with the physical and emotional disciplines of the preceding five animals into a single rich whole. As each individual is comprised of relative natural strengths and weaknesses, due to stature-strength coordination, each Monkey is different and exhibits a natural preference. Thus a Monkey may be decidedly Crane or Dragon in his her execution and attitude. Nevertheless, every Monkey has worked on all facets of their character and not just those most comfortable.
Each of the following essays on the various animal attitudes is divided into four parts: 1) Element, 2) Image, 3) Stance, and 4) Commentary. The information in these essays are specific to the curriculum of American Kenpo Karate Academy, but at the same time they have been drawn from a large pool of available information and opinion concerning the five-animal systems of Chinese Martial Arts. Though most martial artists are familiar with the popular conception of animal systems as physical imitations of each animal's behavior in nature, these essays are focused on the more subtle, psychological side of the animals that is also inherent in the physical motions of all five-animal systems.
Just add a couple of animals and you have Shou Shu your "own system"
Ah no, not even close.
As in the words of the great philosophors Cheech and Chong (Up in Smoke "You know, the same but only different")
Have a great day!
what belt did you get to Former? im guessing you didnt even make it to green.
Mad Max is right. Not even close.
I also agree with Mad Max that if you were successful in proving Da' Shifu "created" Shou' Shu' that you would elevate him in our minds beyond the level of reverence we already have for him. so good luck at that.
Dog catcher, you show great humility by apologizing when you were the one insulted. Nice!
I've been around enough to have been educated a little on the kenpo animal attitudes. It's actually used in a few other arts too. This is anthropomorphic. The Shou' Shu' use of animals is not.
In Shou' Shu' we do not anthropomorphize human characteristics onto animals. We try to learn the reactive states of those animals. Although this is only a small part of the training.
There are no student stage beasts. Each beast is an independent art. They are completely different from one another. Each is a separate course of study and upon mastering that beast technically one would be considered a master of an art. Although we don't really use that terminology much.
Our tiger is in no way linear. It is not necessarily aggressive although can have aggressive tendencies.
All of our animals could be aggressive or evasive. In general characteristics are not limited to individual beasts. they do have characteristics though. For example any of the animals could use either passive or aggressive evasion but the mantis and cobra would tend to use more aggressive evasion while the crane can easily go either way. Each has it's own spectrum of reactive states. Some of those spectrum's are wide, some are tiny. As in nature.
Each beast can do the full realm of martial principles.However they each do these things in their own way. A crane can evade and a tiger can evade. But they do it differently.
The crane may tend to be more evasive and the tiger may tend to be more aggressive but this is not absolute. The most aggressive of our beasts is the Mantis. This is because his brain is the most simplistic. He cannot have emotion. He can only carry one reactive state (not thought or emotion but reactive state).
Reactive states are similar to emotions but there is a subtle difference. And as everything in Shou' Shu' the magic is in the subleties. And yes subleties are difficult to understand. they take years of study before they appear to a person and sometimes they never do. That is the reason we are having this conversation at all.
An emotion is triggered by a thought. That thought may be buried deep within our subconscious but it is still a thought. It may not be evident to us but it is still a thought. Thoughts trigger emotions.
A reactive state is triggered by a cause. There is no thought between the cause and the reactive state.
This is a very subtle difference but has profound meaning.
But again, this is only a small part of the beast.
Our animals do not "represent" anything. They are "ways of moving". Meaning they each follow their own set of physical rules.
I tend to think in physics. I have the ability to visualize 3d modeling and have some training in statics and dynamics. So because of this it is easiest for me to understand the beast motions in terms of physics
In getting the basics of how a beast moves using statics and dynamics helps me learn.
So I think in terms of centroids to think about energy flow. Centroids are like center of gravity but are used to calculate energy of moving non uniform shapes
In Shu' Shu' the chi always passes through the centroid. It is the connecting point. The point in common that all chi passes through.
The bears centroid is just below the navel. So basically the energy could be calculated as if all of the mass was at the navel The tigers is higher in the chest but moves from navel to chest.
Mongoose is really weird since his centroid can be outside the body in some instances (dragon too)
Cranes centroid is vertical a pole
Mantis centroid is a horizontal pole
Cobra is seems to be always slightly forward of the vertical centerline
Dragon it can be wherever he damn well pleases :-)
Of course it's not just a matter of the amount of energy but how the energy is transfered to the opponent
The equation for impulse power is helpful in understanding this
I=(1/2MV^2)/(t^4)
which is extremely helpful in understanding energy transfer in both crane and cobra. Basically it says the less time the strike is making contact the more I or impulse. Impulse is what causes damage. this allows for example cobra strikes to target internal targets.
If you've been hit with strikes from different beasts you can attest that they feel very differently from one another. Tiger feels hot at the surface and spreads. It's more of a blunt force. Cobra hurts internally. Like a bullet that bounces around inside the body. Crane feels like a blade cutting through. Mantis shoots through you like a bullet with an exit wound.
In Shou' Shu' the animal motions are very distinct from one another. I have not seen that to be true in other systems.
As far as the newspaper article. I've had enough newspaper articles written about me to know that reporters rarely get things correct. I've seen so many blatant misprints that were completely different than what was said.
But here is what was probably meant.
Shou' Shu' did not use technique as a teaching tool prior to it's involvement with kenpo. It did however have beast forms and beast forms are made up of technique. The principles were taught in individual motions and later (much later) were shown in a form.
It's more about the teaching methodology.
I hope this is helpful
Smile!
Ah now I see.
You mean permagrin right?
Smile, because you sound like a politician telling us what we read in a step by step interview, is not what Mr. Moore said, it was the reporter. Glad you cleared that up. When Mr. Moore said Kung Fu was Cantonese and the Shou Shu was Mandarin art which is a language, that must have been the reporter too.
The training in China must have been a one time two and a half year class, Mr. Moore said that fifty started and only five finished. This means that they would have all started at the same time. 10% not bad for a two and a half year one time masters program.
One of my favorite quotes from the interview.
HN: Do you hold any black belts in any other types of martial arts?
Da Shifu: Yes, I have them Kenpo, Ju Jitsu, and Judo. (Love this part) I also have honorary belts in other systems. Taking the test would have been easy. THEY wanted to be able to say that I had a rank in their system, so they wanted me to have it.
Big Smile, Darn Reporter.
come on Former. how far did you get in shou shu. orange? high orange?
Sam-I-Am claims to be a shifu. But has never said under who. As I've explained before that would make a big difference as to how close what he knows is to kenpo
well if he's a shifu, he didn't make tiger and he should have no problem reciting the cobra kata. come on Former. lets hear it.
Between early November 1948 and early January 1949, the two sides battled for control of Suzhou. Zhu De concentrated 600,000 troops under Chen Yi, Liu Bocheng, and Chen Geng near that strategic centre, which was defended by Nationalist forces of similar size. Both armies were well-equipped, but the Nationalists had a superiority in armour and were unopposed in the air. Yet poor morale, inept command, and a defensive psychology brought another disaster to the Nationalist government. One after another, its armies were surrounded and defeated in the field. When the 65-day battle was over on January 10, the Nationalists had lost some 500,000 men and their equipment. The capital at Nanjing would soon lie exposed.
With Manchuria and most of the eastern region south to the Yangtze in communist hands, the fate of Tianjin and Beiping was sealed. The railway corridor between Tianjin and Zhangjiakou was hopelessly isolated. Tianjin fell on January 15 1949 after a brief siege. America and many other allies had naval blockades in the time Mr. Moore claimed to have been traveling to China.
What has rank to do with history? Tianjin was at war with the communists at the time Mr. Moore claimed to have train there.
Apparently a lot, since you won't answer the question. Hell, I'm beginning to think you never were a Shou Shu student.
Former
The question really has nothing to do with rank but your ability to discern what would be Kenpo mechanics and principles and Shou Shu mechanics/principles. That is my opinion as to why people are asking. If you just look at the cards ya it might look a whole lot like Kenpo until you realize the underlying principles and mechanics utilized have completely different body mechanics to achieve power. Think about this, if you were to look at our Brown card you would see Form 6 but it has nothing to do with Kenpo form 6, which is all about weapon disarm techniques. Also as a side if Former is super "old school" he may not know the cobra as it was not in the system in the 70s.
This came to my attention, some of you are doing your research.
According to (MDBG Chinese- English Dictionary) Shou means Four Legged beast or animal. Yeshou would be correct for beast or animal. Use this Mandarin dictionary for more cross references. Shu, knowledge, Da shifu, teacher, and other definitions given to us by Al Moore in his 1976 article, and definitions listed on the Shou Shu web sites.
Mr Moore claimed to have lived in China for $1.50 a day in his 1976 interview.
Search
THE MONEY OF COMMUNIST CHINA - PART III. John E. Sandrock
This also shows a little about life in Tianjin China in the mid to late 1940's. In other studies of Tianjin durring this period I found Food and water was hard to attain, people were burning the doors for fire wood. See Chinese Civil War.
Take a look at life in North East China, 1946-49 while Mr Moore was learning from the masters at the age of twenty.
Again you decide!
Search youtube Chinese Civil War 1946 49
Were all adults here former quit bashing shou shu. I can tell that u haven't matured as a ma because u keep underestamiting this art. And it will be ur down fall in a fight . Best lesson I have ever gotten "we can give u tools but it's up to u to make things efective "
Bà fú, former doesn't know what Shou Shu is and doesn't care what it has to offer. If someone on the street showed him some Shou Shu motions, he wouldn't even know it was Shou Shu vs some other art. If he got to work out with a Da Shifu for one single day, he wouldn't give a flying **** about Shou Shu's history. Sad.
Mmadmax9....You said it!
It doesn't mater to me where it came from....Never cared about all that stuff. Shou Shu works....Really Works! It's hard to see internal circles and those tiny body shifts on film or even watching, but you get an advanced Shifu demonstrating them to you/on you and you wont forget it. I want that for myself.Gonna keep training til I get it. By then I'll want something else that Shou Shu offers. :-)
Former seems to want us all to admit that Shou Shu didn't come from China or whatever...for me..well...Who cares?
I guess that's a shallow selfish view but that's okay with me. 20 plus years in various other styles and a 2nd Dan in Tae Kwon Do...Yet here I am back in Shou Shu where I started Sooo long ago. Shou Shu-Gumball machine...I'm okay with that. I never got to meet Al Sr. Don't know what he would think or say about all this but I bet the attitude of "Who cares where it came from it works" would have him grinning ear to ear.
Frank Kasper
rockhaven1@comcast.net
I never met Da'Shifu Sr, But i've been trained by Jung Moon and I'm trained 2x a month by Da'Shifu Siegfried and ShiHan Amata, I pass it down to my students... 3 of my students were recently attacked, 1 by 8 men, to make it more visible, 3 stepped up and 3 went down... the other 5 pulled their friends away! (fighting sets)
The 2nd student was walking out of the grocery store with groceries in hand, a bit after 9pm, guy asks for spare change, is told no... next thing he feels something, moves but still gets hit across the cheek with an object.. opened his face a bit, he took the dude down but isn't as versed in Shou Shu yet... he loses focus and starts beating the guy and a 2nd guy comes up from behind and starts choking him in a headlock... he reaches under and grabs him by the nuts! Security guy steps in and breaks it apart.... yellow belt material
2nd attack and 2nd victory for street application!
3rd and closest to home... 3rd person is my wife... fresh baby black female! she's walking downtown sac to buy lunch and is approached by guy who agressively tells her she has his walled under her arm.. he attempts to reach for it and she swiftly and effectively nails him in the groin! She said she's never seen someone drop like that! she went for a punch to the face but the deal was closed!
hmmmmm It works!
Yeah it does, Shun Shifu. I remember getting jumped by several guys when I was an orange belt. I fought them all off and didn't suffer a single punch.
No surprise, martial arts has worked for thousands of years, Chinese, Filipino, Japanese etc, you can find success stories in all. That is not the question discussed here.
Again, no bashing from here. Train hard, just know you linage.
Search and study, Physics of martial arts. Physics are universal, no matter the style.
Congratulations on teaching your students well.
Lol .. Nice .... Former what's with u and the linage of shou shu ?
Shou. Shu is not what it's called in china thats what it's called in America
yes da shifu studied with Ed Parker yes he studyed with the bok Fu guy but they also studied from him
Well, look at it this way. We know, by research Mr. Moore's claimed time in China 1946-49 at twenty years of age highly unlikely. We know words and terms used in Shou Shu are not correct, some of the words are even Japanese. Little strange for a ( Pure ) Chinese style of martial art taught by the Shou Shu master himself.
You claim, no Shou Shu in China, But as stated by the master himself in 1976 there are three in China. Who are we to question. Smile.
Mr. Moore and family claim to have over twenty black belts in other systems. Any ( Known ) system worth it's salt keeps records. We know about The Moore's Kenpo belts to first black but that's it. Simple, produce and post the records. And have we heard of these people or styles, and will we find the Moore's listed on their family tree?
Once a half of a dozen of false statements are known by Mr Moore, who are we to believe Mr Moore, or the list of men ( Attorneys, Police Officers, Famous Martial Artists, etc ) that have stated time and time again that Mr Moore never mentioned any of the stories of this wonderful art of Shou Shu or going to China, while training under them.
You Decide, it's entirely your choice.
I'll say it again, in a different manner. If Da Shifu Sr. studied Kenpo and some other arts, and then created Shou Shu, (which is a better art than any of the ones he supposedly stuided ;)), I'm even more impressed with him!
Former, the thing is, you're trying to get people to turn their back on Shou Shu but in fact you're causing them to remember the most important thing, Shou Shu as a fighting art is what matters. Not it's history, not what others say about it, etc. All those things mean nothing to those who have scratched Shou Shu's surface. So I thank you for helping at least me to remember that a posteriori knowledge is king.
Just wonder why he didn't just say it was his system, instead of making up these fantastic stories, then letting students look like fools later trying to prove them. Mr Moore let students take him to China on the stories of Shou Shu If you are impressed with him, so be it, but am not impressed with some one that tells falsehoods to children to create a fallowing.
Please understand Mr Moore did not get this material out of a gumball machine nor out of his head. The wheel was already invented, he took what he learned from many arts, rearranged it, and call it Shou Shu. Just like many others.
Mad Max has stated it pretty clearly I think. Good job.
Former you are stating a lot of your claims and research as truth. It is not. Your very talented at making a case on falsifications. You'd make a good politician.
Funny thing I ran into recently just by coincidence. Dr. David Hawkins mentioned in one of his seminar series about traveling around China after WWII. He was in the Navy, same age, and very similar stories. Wonder if he's lying too.
Ba Fu is correct. I've heard a few eye witness accounts from students who studied in the Richard Lee Bok Fu school. some of these students witnessed Da' shifu coming to the school to teach the black belts there (Including Mr. Lee)
These were students who had no knowledge of this argument and told me offhandedly.
I'm sorry I don't spend the time to research each and every one of your claims but again. It's just not as important to me as it is to you.
I have to give the Blue Ribbon of Master Bull, to Mr Moore.
Intelligent people will study, make inquiries, cross reference material, and when they talk to you, and look in your eye, as you proceed to convince them with the obvious impossibility of the Shou Shu story, watch for that little twinkle in the eye, witch you have already encountered. As I have said before, you have taken your spoon feeding from Mr. Moore to a great level.
You should a couple of tanks on your wall for authentic picture of Tianjin
Good luck
Looky what I found.. hehe
Hey Madmax,
That's an old version of the site I built. I thought I had it removed from the archive. Funny. I was just about to upload some of those old videos onto www.shoushu.org
Nice I remeber that camp
Question, are you talking about Dr David Hawkins the US defector from the Korean war? If so (bad example) this was also after the Civil war in China. 1953, not sure. We was taken care of by the PRC as a prize. ( Being a Defector and all)
If wrong Mr Hawkins please note.
This guy sounds more down your alley.
David R. Hawkins, M.D., Ph.D. is an American author, mystic, spiritual teacher, and psychiatrist.
Born in Milwaukee on June 3, 1927, He grew up in rural Wisconsin. At this time as a paperboy, in winter, he had a near-death experience. He served in the U.S. Navy from 1945-1946, about one to two months of which were during World War II between June and August before Japan surrendered. After the war he earned a B.S. from Marquette University in 1950.( 3 to 4 year course ) you do the math. And you decide.
More information on the good doctor. search -- the Skeptic's Dictionary Newsletter 58
In Mr Moore's interview he said he had a degree in engineering, do you know what four period was open for this study, and maybe what University he attended.
shun shifu how much do you charge a month for lessons?
does Shou Shu have tai chi in it?
do you teach how to defend with mma stylists atacks and gang m.a attacks
thanks.
O.C JUNKY
Why do u care so much about what we think of shou shu and it's History ?
Why do u care so much about what we think of shou shu and it's History ?
Why do u care so much about what we think of shou shu and it's History ?
Bà Fu, I'm thoroughly convinced he's with Kenpo or some other art and is trying to get students or get back students. What other motive could there be.
I was really enjoying the information being shared on this site but once again this person has been allowed to stir up this continuous tirade of bad mouthing Da'Shifu Sr. and Shou Shu. I make it a point to stay away from negative circles... I just don't have time for it. I used to let this guy get me upset and had the want to find him to teach him a lesson about respect and integrity... but you know what? I feel sorry for the guy, he's probably some out-of-shape, loser of many attempts in life, guy that needs this type of drama to fuel his empty life. I can't be apart of that, best wishes
Shun Shifu Vargas
Elk Grove Shou Shu School
Cute, integrity and respect nice words. Again this debate is between the words of Mr. Moore and the words of Richard Lee, Mr. La bounty, Al Tracy, Mr. Ito and Bryan Hawkins and many others. The Integrity question is between Mr. Moore's words and the words of these these men. as always you decide!
Phil has on his web site that Mr. Moore was also a member of the Triads (Chinese Gangsters) when he was a young man. According to his 1976 interview, he trained after school and received his first black belt at the age of seventeen and a half 1943 August, he would have finished High School at eighteen (1944) then he said he spent two years in the Navy during World war two. This would make him around twenty (1946) when he claims to have went to China (Tianjin) for two and a half years, this would bring us to around the year 1950. In the interview Mr. Moore said he opened up his first Karate school in 1954 or 1955. But he was working as a engineer. This would mean he had already finished four years at a University. In 1955 Mr. Moore was twenty nine years of age. Pretty full schedule, do you know what years he was working with the Triads? Just curious.
Please don't feel sorry for me, It's life failed at a few, and succeeded at a few more! Smile!
Just research, make calls, and you decide!
Agreed Shun Shifu Vargas. Shun Shifu Weaver, if you have any more stories yould like to share, I'm sure most here would love to hear them!
Lot's of stories left,I have heard many. Many years ago in the Lodi school one of the older Shou Shuer told (myself) about Mr Moore's death matches while in China. Great story. Tell us that one.
I was young once.
Best to all.
Phil
Please tell your stories of Mr Moore here for all to see. Not posting them here, and only on your Shou Shu site where only your aproved Shou Shu members can read them is just another reason for the public to doubt. Put them here so everyone can read and decide. We would all like to hear your version of Mr Moore and the Tracy's, Richard Lee etc. And the rest of the Shou Shu stories, the martial arts that came from Egypt through China to us, through Mr Moore.
Phil, looks like mcnaby my have found the school were da shifu studied at ? Do u think it is ?
Questions for "Former"
1--What is your motivation for the negative propaganda you are spreading in this forum regarding Shou Shu?
2--What rank did you achieve while you were in Shou Shu?
3--What happened to you that made you so bitter and negative about Shou Shu?
4--Do you think YOUR lack of knowledge about our system diminishes the effectiveness of Shou Shu? Do you think poorly written accounts of your shoddy research can discredit our system?
5--Do you have anything positive to add to this forum?
My final comments are simply advice:
Spend more time working on your chosen martial art, and less time trying to discredit a martial art you chose to abandon. Maybe this is why you failed in Shou Shu. Practice humility and respect for others. You have successfully stirred the pot on an internet forum. Could you be as effective in a street fight where you or someone you care about depends on your ability as a martial artist?
You know what's great about Shou Shu? You can always come back. In the meantime, why don't you take a nap or something and let someone else talk for a while. Take care young man.
Young man, haven't heard that in a long time. Thanks!
#1. I do not want you to change your art. Many in the Shou Shu system are very knowledgeable in the martial arts. And are great people.
#2. Their is no best style of martial arts, just good instructors and good students.
#3. Please stay were you are, if you are satisfied train hard, then harder.
#4. Mr Moore learned over 600 techniques in the Tracy system, + over 400 + in the rearranged techniques of the Parker and Richard Lee systems. Well over a thousand techniques + forms and sets. A great deal of knowledge, backed up with the knowledge of physics with his engineering degree.
#5. Just know your lineage, give credit to those who have taught Mr Moore, (AND) Mr Moore!
#6. Mr Moore's Shou Shu is the combination of these systems. Simple put ( Moore's Karate )
Again, TRAIN HARD!
Nap time.
Former, so you're saying by the time he got his black in Kenpo, he knew 1000+ techniques. LOL.
Shaking Head, While LOL!
Mr Moore was one of the Tracy's first Black Belts. (Late 60's ) Correction 421 techniques. Search Tracy Kenpo Karate Belt Requirements to first Black. Over 600 if went to fifth black.
Phil's e-mail to Al Tracy after Al died.
Subject: Re: Sensitive Question: Sorry to hear about Albert: Yes, he and his brother studied kenpo with us in the late 60's and they were some of our ( Original Black Belts.)They actually did most of their studying under Bob Blackmoore one of our Black Belts.
Al Tracy (2002)
Richard Lee Bok Fu Black Belt List.
Search Bok Fu belt requirements. and ( The Kenpo net family tree full index) Under Richard Lee.
Then Mr Moore, Ralph and Al Jr with trained under Mr LaBounty in the Parker system.
Steve LaBounty
Al & Ralph primarily, trained with me for a short period. They started with Richard Lee who was a Tracy student with a school in Castro Valley, who hired me to train his higher ranks in Kenpo, this on the recommendation of Al Tracy.
Vernon Moore, "Little" Al, Moore's son, and Jerry Melvin joined in to learn the Parker system more intensely. I had a school in the Fresno area that was floundering, so I loved to teach, needed the money and liked this group of people a lot. Essentially a no brainer. All of this was in the late 60's.
Big Al and Ralph decided to go their own way and get into the Shou Shu material.We parted amicably but several of the Lee and Moore students continued to train with me for a couple of years. Again, this was amicable on my part and on the Moore's part as well, at least that was my impression.
I had no knowledge of Al Moore's training prior to his taking kenpo.
Mr LaBounty 2005
Again, do the math, somewhere between 800 and a thousand techniques. Mr Moore, Black Belt in the Tracy system and a Black Belt in the Bok Fu system, and some time spent in the Parker system.
If Mr Moore only took Kenpo to learn how to teach Shou Shu with techniques, wonder why he went to Richard Lee and then to Mr LaBounty after going through the years with the Tracy's to receive his first black. He had already learned how to teach Shou Shu with techniques. He must have felt he could learn something from these men or he simple would have not trained under them. Then again maybe Phil is right and all of theses men are not being truthful.
Your Choice.
Bok Fu Techniques
Three Hands of China etc.
Search- KO Kung Fu then go to- Get Started- Then pick ( KO Programs ) Middle of Page.
So how does one learn a 1000 tech in a couple years. Heck, in Shou Shu theres like 120 tech to get your black and that usually takes around 3-5 years.
LOL.
And tech names, who cares. What style doesn't teach a round house kick. Does that mean they're all the same exact kick?
Still Shaking my head.
Tracy's opened the San Jose school in 1963, Average time to make Black belt 4 to 5 years, and yes 400+ to make Black belt. Al Tracy said Mr Moore was one of his first Black Belts. Moore's Black Belt in Tracy's system came around 1966. Richard Lee started his Bok Fu in 1967. Mr Moore spent 1967,68,69 Mr LaBounty said the Moore's trained Moore's for Richard Lee in the late 60's 1969. This puts Mr Moore with these men for around seven to eight years.
So did Da Shifu Schaffer rip off Kenpo too?
No idea, Don't know Mr Schaffers story, nor what he tells his students.(Claims)not material. This question and research would be the duty of students, and the parents of his younger students.
Hello Everyone,
Sorry for my absence. I've been busy.
Ba' Fu. No Shun Shifu Mcnabney did not find the original. I speak with him on occasion and that is not what he is claiming. He simply wanted to continue with learning Beasts and found somewhere to study them. But what he has told me they are not too much like the Shou' Shu' beasts. That's about all I know about that.
Yes it is true that the number of techniques to kenpo black belt is huge. Which in itself says something. It can't possibly be as deep. Very wide, but not deep. Heck I spent the last two weeks worth of lessons just introducing the first green technique to new blue belts.
Gary Schaeffer was certainly involved with kenpo back then. There is a history there. But I have dabbled in his art and it is nothing like kenpo either. It doesn't seem to have the beast power of Shou' Shu' but it does have some intereting stuff. He does know kenpo though. He trained in it as a kid.
SSW
Is there a relationship between Gary Scaeffer's father Al Schaeffer and Al Moore? Also is there a relationship with the Schaeffer and the Moore's?
Is there a relationship between Gary Scaeffer's father Al Schaeffer and Al Moore? Also is there a relationship with the Schaeffer and the Moore's?
Yes
Now scratching head.
Mr Moore, a master martial artist that ( claimed ) to have mastered seven beasts in a ten year period in the 1940's, waited thirteen years. Then spent around eight years to learn two + systems and all the techniques,sets and kata's, and all with no depth. Go Figure. Smile!
Tracy's were making money.
He couldn't hold a student teaching them the way he had been taught
Shun shifu , what had happened to shun shifu Clark ? I heArd he left the moores system ? Is that true
Yes, same thing they told me.
Eight years and two full systems,Tracy's and Bok Fu and time with Steve in the Parker system just to learn how to teach with techniques. Simple, if it was just teaching and not the concept and depth of the Kenpo system, Mr Moore being a master and all should have be able to to learn to teach with only a few months in the Tracy system. Good thing all the Moore's took Kenpo, Al,Vernon,Ralph and Jr. or it would have taken twenty or more years for them to learn to teach with techniques. Mr LaBounty is a master of concepts of the martial arts. You realy should talk with him and compare notes.
BA Fu
True
Shun shifu So is there any one who knows where the school is?
Yes, do you have an account at www.shoushu.org?
No but I sign up, I'll use the same sn
You are welcome to ask any questions of Master Schaffer directly at: gary.schaffer yahoo.com
DaShifu Brown
Are you a Sheng Hun DaShifu?
shun shifu i am still waitting to be approved
Oops, sorry, your good to go now
I have been in martial arts since I was 15, I am now 48. I was in Shou Shu from the beginning of its start in Lodi. After I had achieved my 2nd degree in brown, the system had changed...such as new techniques were added. This was due to a "brainstorming session" by Da Shifu Al and Dashifu Ralph. My question is, Why do you need to add techniques if your art comes from an ancient martial art? Also, if I wore my belt every day and tied it 30 times a day, why then would the back of it become frayed? I have kept in contact with 30 year veterans and we have all come to the same conclusion.......If a martial art has something to offer, there should not be any need to add more material. Funny how the "new material" looks exactly like the material that is taught at Al Tracys Kenpo. (You said that all the Moores took Tracys Kenpo)-see above. It was also a practice to pull a blackbelt over the door in order for it to become more worn to look as if the blackbelt was an experienced martial artist. I have read that on occasion you have "dabbled" in other arts...why then does your art suddenly have new material after you have done some "dabbling"? On your website you say that you do the pure form of Chin Ye only with your blackbelts in private? Where did you get that? You were only thrown a few bones by Shi Gong Schaffer. It is not professional practice to steal material and claim it as your own!!
To answer a few questions, Shi Gong Schaffer did start at Tracys Kenpo. He does remember Al and Ralph Moore being there. Shi Gong Schaffer was only 7 and brought into Kenpo by his father Al Schaffer who did have a black belt. Shi Gong continued in Kenpo until he was 18. Because he enjoyed martial arts so much, he also took on a second art at age 16 and gained a black belt in Shou Du Kan. Shi Gong Schaffer quit Kenpo due to a business disagreement with Al Tracy. Although Shi Gong had quit Kenpo, he still holds Al Tracy in highest regards and respect. Shi Gong Schaffer went to Master Wong and asked for more lessons but out of respect for Al Tracy, he was denied any further lessons in Hun Gar. Because Shi Gong had a desire to continue learing martial arts, the Hun Gar boys that he worked out with got him in contact with the Ching family. (Ching means the pure one in the Chinese dictionary, look it up). Therefore there is no mixing of animals in Sheng Hun. Shi Gong Schaffer took lessons for 25 years, on the 24th year he entered into Mu Shim (sp?). As for Shi Gong Schaffer ripping off Kenpo, it was a huge task for the late Shi Gong Ching to train out the movement that he had learned from old pine tree style martial arts and to train in pure animal motion. In Shi Gong Schaffers lessons, he had to show Shi Gong Ching the motions that he knew. Then Shi Gong Schaffer would have to attact Shi Gong Ching and he would demonstrate the proper body motion in the pure animal motion.
As for the relationship between Al Schaffer and Al Moore, Tracys Kenpo had Thursday fight night. You had to stay on the mat until you lost. Al Schaffer was consistent in winning over Al Moore. This is a nice way of putting it and you can check this with Al Tracy. Al Schaffer walked into your Al Moores Karate School with no knowledge of the passing of Dashi Fu Al Moore and with no fear.
In the past you have tried to align your school with Far East Fighting Arts because you no longer have a relationship with Moores Karate. Integrity and ethics speak for itself. That is why you will never be tied to any other martial art. At this point we would put you in the same category as the Grand Shifu up in Oregon who does nothing but take money from his students and buy videos online then teach it back to his students. (Proven fact)
In conclusion, do NOT speak of anything of which you have no knowledge! I have tried to be respectful, but the truth is the truth!!
Dashifu Brown asked Shi Gong Schaffer if he would like to respond to this post and he said that he would rather fight than type.
E-NOL
Enlightened, got any clips of Kenpo guys doing their cobra cause ive seen 3rd degrees do some that looked nothing like Shou Shus. ive also seen clips of Da Shifu Schaffer doing cobra that looked nothing like Shou Shu's either.
interesting
As far as I know, there are no clips of any cobra motion that is based upon ancient training methods. What you may have seen is Shi Gong Schaffers little brother doing an empty form of cobra. This was posted to show that Sheng Hun does in fact teach the ancient training methods of the Ching Family motion but not give out any fighting cobra principles. There are so many unscrupulous people out there who will take a movement and claim it as their own and complettely screw up the motion and timing. This is why Far East Fighting Arts is offering seminars to the public so there will be NO question about the credability of the art. Look forward to these seminars in the near future.
There are many Kenpo websites for you to view their motion. Id rather you find them for yourself, there are no true cobra forms in Kenpo/Hungar, this includes Shou Shu. You might be interested to look at the symbol that Shou Shu uses, in Chinese it means massage. Look it up for yourself.
Which Shou Shu symbol, there are many. Also, you say you got to 2nd brown in Shou Shu, Cobra isnt taught in its purity until you get to 5th black. Not to be a jerk, but how do you know whats taught at that level.
Thanks.
Shun Shifu, if you'ld like to talk more about this guy, I'm sure I'm not the only one that would love to hear all about it.
"I have found one guy who had a purely cobra art. He was as shocked to find me as I him"
Thanks
Just an FYI. I put a call in to Far East Fighting Arts last night asking if what "Enlightened-not a lemming" is saying represents them. It's to easy to impersonate on the web and It would probably not be wise to comment to "Enlightened-not a lemming" if he is not speaking for them. If it turns out he is not I'll just delete the posts.
On another note. I consider the post to be UCC and therefor spam. If the objective is to promote a Sheng Hun seminar then you may do so on your own hub. They are free to write. Just create your own account.
Mad Max. I'll give you the info I have. Unfortuantely it's not a lot. I met the guy a number of years back when I was running a booth at the Calaveras County Fair. His kids approached the booth so he had to follow. I could tell that his opinion was that we had nothing to offer him. But then he noticed the cobra and became inquisitive. He was pretty tight lipped but after we compared a few motions he openened up a little. He was obviously very perplexed that we had cobra and I could show that I had it. He demonstrated a little cobra punch and that was enough for me to know that there was something there. I do not know the depth of his knowledge but there is a connection of some sort.
He said he had learned from a guy privately in New York and he didn't think anyone else was teaching it. Since the history books say that cobra is a lost art I can understand his confusion. He thought he was the only one. As did we.
I thought I would be able to catch up with him later since I had him fill out a contact form. But when I got back to the studio I never could find the right form. I did search a lot. However I do remember he said he lived in Copperopolis.
Sorry I don't know anything more than that. I wish I did. But I can say with relative certainty that cobra does exist out there somewhere aside from us. Probably taught privately in someones garage.
SSW
To Mad Max--the symbol that I am referring to is the one that is referred to as "Moores magic hands", thats what I was told that the symbol meant, it was also made into medallions to wear on a chain.
To Mr. Weaver--The "call" that you are referring to was a voice message on the answering machine. Dont pretend that you are in contact with anyone from Far East Fighting Arts.
My posts are not a forum to promote FarEast Fighting Arts seminars. I am just informing people who are thirsting for the truth. I also have no tolerance for people who steal from others and call the material their own.
Thanks Shun Shifu, thats very interesting.
Enlightened-not a lemming, what about Shou Shu's Cobra form. You only got to 2nd brown, so how could you know all there is to know about Shou Shu's Cobra.
Thanks
International Shou Shu Association. We are a California Non Profit Public Benefit Corporation established to preserve and promote the art of Shou' Shu' for the benefit of humanity.
After the passing of Da' Shifu Al Moore in 2002 the art of Shou' Shu' became endangered. Many of the schools which had formerly taught the principles converted to what had previously been called Southern Shou' Shu'. Other schools left the system to carry on the art. Some of these survived, others did not.
After the passing of Da' Shifu Al Moore in 2002 the art of Shou' Shu' became endangered. Many of the schools which had formerly taught the principles converted to what had previously been called Southern Shou' Shu'. Other schools left the system to carry on the art. Some of these survived, others did not.
Shou Shu must be true, Non Profit and all. Nice gig
Big Smile
I guess I didn't clarify that I left a message. I thought that was obvious since I inferred I was awaiting an answer.
I didn't get a return call.
I guess I didn't clarify that I left a message. I thought that was obvious since I inferred I was awaiting an answer.
I didn't get a return call.
Former meet enlightened
Enlightened , former
You two have a lot to talk about
Enjoy!
lol
I gotta get me some popcorn.
Mad Max; add a box of red vines for me! Lol
Checking in at the sand box.
Looks like a few cats have decided to use the sandbox as a litter box, so let me get the pooper scooper out and clean up.
Let’s be clear, posting as “anonymous” has no credibility. If you’re not a big enough person to put your real name on a statement, then you shouldn’t be saying it.
Former- We all get it; in fact everyone on the planet gets it but you. You were wronged in some way by Da Shifu, or by Jr. or by someone who knew them, congratulations, welcome to life.
Gary- posting as “enlightened” shows how unenlightened you are. Anyone enlightened exercises humility. And if "enlightened" is not you, then call the police, you have a stalker!
Any Martial Artist should just celebrate what they know; you don’t see Tae Kwon Do people running around trying to destroy Aikido people, their just happy doing what they are doing.
Basic rule of the universe: “What you focus on expands”. You two spend so much time trying to discredit Da’ Shifu and Shou’ Shu’. In reality all you’re doing is sending it energy, bringing out and together those who love and support it. Thanks.
Go volunteer at the homeless shelter it will help you put your priorities back in line.
Shifu Liz Weaver
Facts are facts. Truth is truth.
And for your information, In my lifetime, I have spent more time and money here in my country and other countries than you see in a couple of years. This is a discussion about the facts and stories of Albert F Moore and Shou Shu. Please keep faith out of it.
P S
The stories of Al Moore and Thursday fight night is old news, I heard the same thing from the old timers.
Alarm Clock went off, time to wake up.
God Bless
Liz, I am a female and my name certainly isnt Gary, nor was he in the Karatesize class that I attended when Marilyn was running the classes. You certainly are not the creator! As for you calling Shi Gong Schaffer by his first name, you can call him whatever you want, on the street he is a fighter. He is not a cult leader who must have little kids do full salutes to him in the grocery store.
I have knowledge of the 5th degree material because a friend of mine happened to live with the person who made it up. That is the reason why I know what it is. There are many reasons why Phil doesnt know what it is, and how could he know since he is only a 3rd degree, or did he make himself grand master? A kata is a kata, hard style that lacks the fundamentals of cobra.
As for you attacking me, this is one cat that doesnt have American Kenpo techniques in her form. Isnt Shou Shu supposed to be a pure animal art? Why then do you have Kenpo techniques in your tiger kata? And why did you change your school name from Shou Shu to Sheng Chi..after you had met Shi Gong Schaffer and learned about Sheng Hun? Remember what Phil wrote on the old forum that "sheng hun has greatly helped his shou shu". Keep in mind he only threw a few bones and never gave you anything. Sheng Hun has far more material than shou shu could possibly offer, as you are painfully aware.
As for me being in the litter box, then what trailer did you crawl out of? I dont wear a thong that says "who's your shifu?"
As for me helping others, I have helped others more than you could possibly know. I am a person who thinks that the truth deserves to be exposed. You have stollen from others and profited from the lies.
Enlightened, are you representing Far East Fighting Arts in your statements?
And by the way, nobody from the Shou Shu system ever harmed me,nor my family in any way. Except for spreading the Shou Shu lies. This is all about truth.
Have your paster call Al Tracy and the men listed above. Then maybe you could hear the sound of reason. Maybe!
Helping? You do know that enlightenment means having no ego, right?
Bravo!
I'm not a martial artist, but this is certainly a fascinating little spat. If it's alright with everyone, I have a couple of questions / suggestions I would like to put out there:
First, I think it would be really helpful if Former gave us some sort of motivation for his posts other than truth seeking. I don't want to be hypercritical here, but "online consumer advocate expose" just doesn't make sense as a justification for a series of posts going back over nine months. The world is full of charlatans so it seems improbable that out of all of the possible choices you would single out this particular individual unless some sort of catalyst had driven you to it. I guess what I am getting at is that as a reader I feel like I deserve some sort of juicy motivation on your part that I can really sink my teeth into. Did Mr. Moore slight you in some way, cheat you in cards, insult your ancestry? These are just cliched examples, I hope whatever you come up with will be more creative.
Next, I really think Enlightened needs to clarify her allegiances in this little webdrama. Her character was introduced a little late in the game, and to be honest it was a little confusing. Are you with former or are you an unaffiliated third party itching to get in on the digital fisticuffs? I think you need to make you intentions clear. If you are simply a third party then I suppose we can fit you into the story line so long as you let us in on your motivations early on, none of this pussyfooting around like former has been doing. Please give your motivation some kind of interesting twist though, example: madmax9's estranged child or lover, you get the idea.
I hope everyone can apply themselves and get this story back on track within the next couple of weeks otherwise I may begin to lose interest.
Break a Leg,
-Mike
P.S. It should go without saying but, if this thing spills over into real life it would be incredibly bad form not to record it and post the video to youtube (with a link at this hub of course!)
Former wont tell us, that would ruin his game. F and E are probably the same person.. lol
And well said Shifu Liz.
Two Vilians, the would be hero, the audience eating popcorn, and NOW a narrator. This is freakin awesome. I think we could go on the road.
Madmax9, no they are not the same person. That would be hilarious though.
Former FINALLY changed his ISP. He has been using AOL all this time (I can't believe anyone still uses AOL) and the IP addresses are notoriously hard to trace. They have proxy servers all over. But now he switched to Clearwire and the IP address puts him in Stockton. I was a little surprised by that. He nearly had me convinced of his altruistic intentions to rid the world of our ways. But Stockton? There's a heavy Moore's Shou' Shu' presence there and lots of kenpo/kempo (which was he?). I think there may really be a beef of some kind.
And Enlightened, she's broadcasting from beautiful Oakdale Ca using ATT. Not far, but far enough that we can safely say they are not the same person.
I've done a bit more sleuthing but didn't come up with anything provable. Then I got bored. I can be a bit ADHD.
Thanks tuning in.
SSW
Shun Shifu Weaver,
It got kinda quiet. I think it is interesting, the locations and all, guess we'll have to see if there is still more to come.
Shifu Salindong
I like this..." A kata is a kata, hard style that lacks the fundamentals of cobra."
That's funny.. Shou Shu's cobra kata is considered "hard". Maybe hard to comprehend, but it surely is soft, lol.
I find all of this rather interesting, but ultimately irrelevant. It does not matter were it comes from. What matters is that it works. What I'm learning from Jim Clark is effective and powerful and that's enough for me. (although I may come back later to stay abreast of the drama.)
Wojack,
Exactly!!!
Jim Clark? Is that Shifu Clark (7th black Shou Shu)?
And I agree with your statements.
Madmax9
8th
8th black and yes that's him.
Why did a bunch of ppl leave shou shu after Al Moore died?
Why no one reply to me? :*(
How do you figure "a bunch" of people left? The system within Moore's is stronger than ever.....
Why the split? Why did a bunch of ppl leave when the son took over?
I heard it was creative diffrencives.But who cares we are still shou shu, sheng chi, sliver claw ,ba hei long, etc..it's all shou. Shu and it works it's efecctive , everyone else kick rocks ! We don't disrespect ur art or styles.. Who cares the history the linagie . Crav maga has no fancy history and was created ,, but who here can say it's not effective , ppl need to grow up. U don't see the higer ups bickering like the underlings
So shun shi Fu, in your optnion how hard is to master the bear
Dai Lo,
I generally avoid the word master. To me it implies that a person has learned and perfected everything there is to know about a thing. In Shou' Shu' and probably many things I do not think this is possible.
However, to answer your question, we estimate it at approximately 2000 hours of disciplined training to get to an acceptable skill level of any of the black belt degrees.
Wow, thats a Da Shifu every 2.39 years at 16 hours a day. To study like the old school, how cool would that be. Tho your head would probably be so big, it would get you killed.
Mad Max,
Funny I never thought about it like that. However we do know that total immersion drastically speeds things up. Think about camp. The material you go to camp on is always the best. That's why Da' Shifu didn't let anyone go home Sat night of camp. He wanted to keep them immersed to up retention.
interesting...
Intersting..2000 hours wow.. Lot of traning I better get start then
I was thinking of enrolling my son in the Elk Grove Studio under Shun Shifu Vargas. He seems like a nice guy who's got his SH$t together.
Seem's like alot of anonymosity on these pages.. he said...she said. I think whatever you believe in and it works for you should be good enough for YOU... If people are on this site to try to prove the timelines of the ART or people who helped propel the ART.. then they aren't practicing the ART and are defeating themselves.
What about the people who get something out of the discipline? as I did...
I have a father that tearfully thanked me for the changes in his 16yr old son. He brought him to the school in search of improvements in his focus and confidence. His son grew up diagnosed with ADHD.
Within 60 days of working with him, the ADHD was no longer noticable! His dad couldn't believe what was happening. His grades accelerated, he started doing chores around the house and his shyness disappeared. Joey is now 18yrs old and is one of my star students. His dad asked him about 6 months ago what he wanted for his 18th birthday so he could start saving for it..... his answer was for him to join in Shou Shu with him... they come in 3x a week religiously now.
True story.....
Nice!
I've seen similar stories many times. It's amazing what Shou' Shu' does for ADHD
Agreed! That is awesome.
The week-ends I was with my grandfather, I was fortunate enough, as few as they were, to gain a lifetime of insight.
AM's Grandson, did you walk into the Elk Grove school when I 1st opened up? Maybe i'm mistaken.....
AM's grandson I don't know who you are. Please enlighten us.
Shun Shifu Vargas,
As far as the healing properties of Shou' Shu' just in case you have not run into these.
We have found it to be extremely helpful for the following conditions:
ADHD/ADD
Any learning disability
PTSD
Fibromyalgia
Addictions
Bad backs.
Of course there is much more. There were numerous cases of rehabilitation after accidents and such.
I became very interested in these things and have done a fair amount of research into the reasons as to why it works.
As far as the learning disabilities go I work with an educational therapist who's program at it's core has a lot of similarities with Shou' Shu'. It's amazing that this program which was developed around the latest in brain research turned out to be so similar to teaching Shou' Shu'.
Now that I've come to recognize what's going on I can actually spot the times when a child's mind is trying to reorganize itself. They'll catch onto a motion and want to keep doing it.
I've done a great deal of structuring in our children's classes to take advantage of this phenomena since it benefits all children regardless of learning difference or not.
I also see a great deal of change in those with Asperger's syndrome. Although I don't yet know why it helps yet.
I hope to do more research in this area over the next year and have found a number of scientists and psychologists who's research supports the ideas. All of them agree a mind body approach is the wave of the future for treatment of these conditions.
Congrats to you for recognizing it.
Hi Shun Shifu Vargas... Yes, I did come to your studio and was interested in my son starting Shou Shu with you.
And shunshifu...Yes, I am Al Moore's Grandson. I googled his name and found your blog entertaining.
I started trying to think back how I might have met you and then put 2 n 2 together. I really hope you'll give me the chance to teach your son. He would have a good time with us.
Wow AM's Grandson, pretty cool to have you here! If you have any stories about Da Shifu that yould like to share, I know I'm not the only one here that would love to hear them.
Shun Shifu Vargas,
I knew I had seen this before. Take a look at this
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php
The post by L. Waters is the same exact stuff that our friend here is spreading. Since we know he's in Stockton if you do a people search in Stockton (use yahoo) you'll find that there are 3 L Waters in Stockton. Addresses and phone numbers are available on Yahoo.
That narrow it down enough for you.
SSW
P.S. Take care of Mr. Woodard. He's a great guy and we enjoyed having him here.
Shun Shifu Weaver, Mr. Woodard has nothing but good things to say about you. He is a great addition to the Elk Grove school.
In regards to our dear friend, L Waters, I have to think he is too smart to use his own name.... do you think he would? I'm tellin ya, I would love to locate this guy and hmmmm, hmmmm.... set some things straight!
i'll check the search. thanks!
Great to hear! Glad he's training again.
My thinking is that he created that profile before he was concerned about how many people he was going to anger. It's a possibility anyway.
I had seen these posts quite awhile back but couldn't find them again. They had dropped out of google's index. However google got a lot better with the cayenne upgrade and is finding a lot of old stuff again.
Hey, what is Shuai Shu. It says on Wiki that Da Shifu Sr. knew Shuai Shu but I can't find any info on it.
Thanks.
Yeah Wiki is getting a lot of edits lately and not by me
Many of the throws you know in Shou Shu are Shuai Chiao based. (Shuai Jiao - He pronounced it more like this)
It is a throwing art. Ask about the story of krieger and the Shuai Chiao master (privately in shoushu.org). One of the best stories ever.
Shuai Shu, welllll, I'll just say that I was there when it was uuuummm created. Ask me privately sometime.
Yeah I've heard the stories as well with ShiGung Krieger as well as some others. Lets just say we took it to the next level! ha,ha,ha
curious martial artist says:
14 months ago
If Al Moore Sr. passed away in 2002, how did you earn the rest of the degrees?